Gavin Newsom on Ego, Power, and Stoicism

Summary

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The Daily Stoic Podcast

Episode: Gavin Newsom on Ego, Power, and Stoicism
Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guest: Gavin Newsom (California Governor)

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, wide-ranging conversation between Ryan Holiday and California Governor Gavin Newsom, focusing on the influence and application of Stoic philosophy in modern politics, personal growth, and leadership. The discussion explores Stoicism's ancient roots, its enduring relevance in addressing contemporary challenges like ego and power, and how philosophical introspection can guide public figures and citizens alike toward more ethical, resilient lives. Newsom shares personal insights on his journey with Stoic texts, the importance of introspection, and the role of character and virtue in public service.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stoicism as a Guide for Modern Life (06:37–14:21)

• Personal Journeys into Stoicism:

  • Both Ryan and Newsom share how they discovered Stoic philosophy. Newsom’s initial exposure was through Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations, while Ryan recounts being introduced to Stoicism by Dr. Drew at a college event ([07:19]).
  • The personal, non-prescriptive nature of Meditations resonated with both, showing that philosophy is for anyone seeking to be better human beings, not just academics ([10:13]).

• Historical Perspective:

  • Ryan explains how every generation of leaders turned to Stoic (and classical) wisdom during times of upheaval, creating a great tradition of resilience and introspection ([12:36]).
  • Stoicism represents not just a set of concepts, but a participatory conversation spanning thousands of years ([14:21]).

2. The Accessibility and Evolution of Stoic Texts (17:26–19:48)

• Importance of Translations:
  • Newsom mentions struggling with various translations of Meditations and finally finding one that resonated, thanks to Ryan’s recommendation ([17:47]).
  • Ryan emphasizes how new life experiences and historical contexts can radically change how we interpret the same Stoic passages, especially during events like the COVID-19 pandemic ([19:19]).

Notable Quote:

“There’s two types of plagues: the one that can destroy your health, and the one that can destroy your character.”
— Ryan Holiday, reflecting on Marcus Aurelius and the pandemic ([19:48])

3. Stoicism: From Self-Control to Community Responsibility (21:19–22:50)

• Initial Attraction to Stoicism:
  • Ryan notes that young men, himself included, are often drawn to Stoicism for its message of self-mastery and control ([21:19]).
  • Over time, he realizes it’s a profoundly ethical philosophy centered on one’s duties to others and the pursuit of both personal and professional excellence ([22:50]).

Notable Quote:

“Stoicism is a philosophy you should be reading, not a philosophy you have read.”
— Ryan Holiday ([22:50])

4. Agency and Responding to Adversity (27:28–29:57)

• The True Meaning of the “Obstacle is the Way”:
  • Ryan clarifies how the famous quote is about personal growth, often in response to difficult people, not just professional setbacks ([27:48]).
  • Stoicism’s core is the understanding that while we can’t control what happens to us, we have complete agency over our responses ([29:57]).

Notable Quote:

“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.”
— Marcus Aurelius, discussed by Ryan Holiday ([27:36])

5. The Role (and Crisis) of Modern Leadership and Culture (31:11–40:13)

• Vacuum of Meaning & Leadership Failures:

  • The decline of traditional religion and community rituals, combined with a lack of accessible philosophical guidance, has left many—especially young men—in a crisis of meaning ([31:11], [40:13]).
  • Negative examples among today’s leaders and influencers—who eschew introspection and virtue—contrast sharply with Stoic ideals ([34:04]).

• The Silicon Valley Shift:

  • Newsom recalls the optimism of early Silicon Valley and questions how that culture deteriorated toward ego and self-interest ([34:04–35:55]).
  • Both agree that success without virtue and introspection leads to moral and societal decay ([40:13]).

Notable Quote:

“I don’t know how to explain to you that you’re supposed to care about other people.”
— Ryan Holiday, referencing a famous headline ([39:37])

6. Introspection, Ego, and the Struggle for Excellence (36:37–38:49)

• Facing Criticism and Growth:
  • Newsom candidly describes being hurt by a critical comment Ryan made in an earlier book about his actions during the pandemic—but admits it was valid, and used it for personal growth ([36:37]).
  • The importance of humility, grace, and continual striving toward the person philosophy sets out for you is highlighted as a Stoic core value ([38:49]).

Notable Quote:

“Philosophy is trying to make you better than you could get away with.”
— Ryan Holiday ([38:49])

7. Stoicism, Community, and Virtue in American Foundations (41:03–44:32)

• Stoicism’s Communal Ethic:
  • The philosophy teaches us to expand our “circles of concern” outward, seeing moral growth as a process of moving from selfishness to broader responsibility ([41:38]).
  • This ethic heavily influenced the Founding Fathers, who saw virtue as the necessary counterweight to American freedoms. The Constitution, John Adams argued, is only adequate for a virtuous people ([44:32]).

Notable Quote:

“Washington’s the only one of the founders who doesn’t read the Stoics in Greek or Latin… these were incredibly literate, philosophical figures.”
— Ryan Holiday ([42:54])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Translation and Discovery:

  "You never swim in the same river twice... We change as well."
  — Gavin Newsom ([25:11])

• On Ego and Introspection:

  "Introspection, like the thing they are running away from."
  — Gavin Newsom, critiquing certain modern leaders ([37:43])

• On Ethics and Public Life:

  "Stoicism is not a formula for you to be a better sociopath. It's supposed to do the opposite."
  — Ryan Holiday ([41:12])

• On American Roots:

  "All that freedom was to be counterbalanced by a sense of virtue in the people."
  — Ryan Holiday ([42:54])

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Important Timestamps

• Stoic Philosophy’s Contemporary Role: 06:37–14:21
• Challenges with Stoic Translations: 17:26–19:48
• Stoicism as an Ongoing Practice: 21:19–22:50
• Interpreting the “Obstacle is the Way”: 27:28–29:57
• Modern Leadership Failures: 31:11–34:04
• ego, humility, and personal growth: 36:37–38:49
• Stoicism in American History: 41:03–44:32

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Tone and Style

The conversation is earnest, intellectually rich, but remains accessible and conversational. Both Ryan Holiday and Gavin Newsom speak openly—Newsom is self-deprecating and reflective, Ryan is explanatory and occasionally wry, often grounding abstract principles in personal anecdotes and historical context.

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This episode serves not only as a primer on Stoicism but as a model for applying philosophical principles to confront the challenges of power, ego, and personal responsibility in private and public life. Listeners are left with both a roadmap for personal growth and a call to broaden their moral concern—an interview less about political positions, more about the urgent need for ethical leadership and introspection today.

Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

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Millions of business owners rely on Spectrum business to keep them connected. Visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Okay, so a couple of months back, I'm listening to a podcast. I'm listening to Ezra Klein's podcast, and the governor of California is on there. I'm from California and no longer live there. And, yeah, and the governor of California starts suddenly talking about stoicism. Listen to this.

[Mike Duncan]

I hate to bring this book up because it's such a universal, obvious book. I had never read it. I've had 10 copies. I finally picked it up off the. Off the shelf. I'm like, what the heck? Meditations from Marcus Aurelius. And I'm like, where the hell have I been? Or where's that book? See, when you get into podcasting and immediately the stoics, I'm telling you, can't

[Ryan Holiday]

be a Ryan holocaster and not get into the Stoics.

[Mike Duncan]

How could you not? I don't think there's ever. Perhaps there's never been more important and impactful words ever written.

[Ryan Holiday]

So I ended up reaching out and we got connected. It turned out that Gavin Newsom had read the Obstacle Is the Way and was reading Meditations and some other stuff on stoicism, and we ended up connecting, and I ended up going out there last month. I took my oldest son, we went on a little father son trip, and I swung by the governor's mansion and we talked Stoic philosophy. I thought it was cool.

Look, you can totally disagree with his politics.

I think it's hard to miss his sort of sincere interest in the philosophy here. And look, I'll take it from whoever it comes from.

Look, would I sit down and do

a podcast with Ron DeSantis of Florida? I mean, I'm not a huge fan of him, but if he was sincerely interested in the philosophy, I would talk to him about it. I happen to think Gavin Newsom is a vastly superior politician than Ron DeSantis. And certainly the very large disparity between their death rates and the COVID pandemic, I think are a pretty stark and vivid illustration of their differences in competencies.

Do I agree with everything that Gavin

Newsom has ever done?

Absolutely not.

In fact, one of the things we talk about in the episode, which surprised me, is I'd actually said something negative about him in one of my books, and he sort of pushed back on that. I was actually surprised at how seriously he took that. So anyways, Look, I know this is

going to be a somewhat controversial episode,

but it's not going to be a political episode in the way that perhaps you might think. This is going to be me and the governor of one of the largest states in the Union, one of the largest economies in the world, my home state, talking about the philosophy that I have made my life's work. So I think that's interesting unto itself. I read his memoir, A Young man in a Hurry, which I related to in a lot of ways, not just, again, as a Californian, but as a person who experienced some of that same ambition and drive, insecurities, mistakes, all. All of that. Let's just get into the episode.

I'll just keep this intro shorter so

I don't anyone off and allow this to speak for itself. Now, this is a chunk of his podcast, this is Gavin Newsom, which you can listen to the full episode of anywhere you listen to your podcasts. But anyways, thanks to the Governor for having me on the show. Thanks for the time he took to talk to my son. My son thought that was a very cool experience. And thanks for letting me see the governor's mansion, which I had not ever really even seen, despite growing up. Not that far from it. Anyways, let's get into it. Here we go.

[Mike Duncan]

Hell of a time. American Peril. And. And then you, you know, you're. You're hardly an old man. Your wife's saying, I told you so, I told you so, I told you so. Mom and dad are like, Jesus, you. You know, how did we raise you, young man?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

Or not. They probably are more generous.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

You know. So where are you now in terms of just. You go on a walkabout. Is that when you picked up meditations or.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, I found. The irony is, I found stoicism before.

In college.

I was in. I found the Amazon receipt for that the other day. October 2006. It's going on 20 years.

[Mike Duncan]

And what was the motive? You remember the motivation for even making the purchase?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. You want to know who told me about the stoics?

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

There's no way you could guess. There's no way you could guess.

[Mike Duncan]

Robert Greene would be the safe bet.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, it was Dr. Drew. Okay.

[Mike Duncan]

Why not Dr. Drew?

[Ryan Holiday]

I was writing for the college newspaper, and I went to this. I got invited to this conference in West Hollywood which was sponsored by Trojan Condoms. And he was giving a talk. And after the talk, I was like a young kid. I was just hungry for advice and

direction and all these things.

And I just said, hey, you got any book recommendations? And he turned me on to the Stoics and changed the course of my life.

[Mike Duncan]

Which Stoic and which book?

[Ryan Holiday]

He told me first about Epictetus, and I bought Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, and obviously it took a while for them to seep in, but. But, you know, sitting in. In Riverside, California, reading Mark Strelas meditations and what.

[Mike Duncan]

Was that the first. Was that the book?

[Ryan Holiday]

That was the first one?

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And I just. I was.

So what is this?

You know, and it really was that immediate? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I didn't know there was writing like this. I didn't know there was advice like this. I didn't know it was what I was looking for, but it was exactly what I was.

[Mike Duncan]

And did you know there was about stoicism, that he was about Stoicism, or was it just the most powerful man in the world and that intrigued you? And it's life lessons.

[Ryan Holiday]

We're only a few years out from the movie Gladiator at this time, so I think I was a little bit primed. But there was something about, I think, at the core, young men are looking for direction, right? And they're looking for direction, particularly now in a world where a lot of the old sort of traditions and explicit and implicit instructions in that regard are gone. And so there's this just kind of existential void. There's this leadership void. You just don't. You don't know how to be a person. And it's not like there are these rituals or these groups or this kind of process by which you become a man that just doesn't exist. And so to pick up the private thoughts of the Emperor of Rome, and he's talking to himself about how to. How to not just be a productive person and a strong person, but also a wise person and a good person and how to deal with everything from his temper to his anxiety to his sort of fear of death or his frustrations with other people. If you had asked me to define philosophy in my late teens, I would have said, I don't know. It's like, you know, it's. It's those people in togas or it's those people on college campuses, you know, asking impossible questions about things for which there are no answers. There you go. You know it like that. It's. First thing, it's for people smarter than me, right? Yeah.

And.

And then to read the Stoics, you go, oh, no, no. This is for people trying to be human beings, like. And trying to just deal with the difficulties of life. And that is what I think struck me so much about Meditations, because even compared to the other Stoics, whether you're reading Seneca or Epictetus, they're there at least talking to an audience. And there's something so personal and disarming about Meditations, because here it's not meant for publication.

[Mike Duncan]

It.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's just a guy. It's like a guy's inner monologue. It's like the angel on his shoulder trying to be like, you're better than this. You should do this, try to do that. What about this? And so I think I was just. I was blown away. And then particularly that he is such a good writer that even his notes to himself are some of the best philosophy ever written. I think that all is what struck me.

[Mike Duncan]

So was that so sort of, you know, all of a sudden, this book speaks to you and your time of life, your state of mind. Epictetus, similarly, you mentioned the big three of stoics, but these aren't the OGs of stoicism. I mean, what. The broader Stoic construct for you, when did that click versus more of a contemporary version of Stoicism? Well, the other represented.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, the Ogs of Stoicism. You go back to. You get Zeno and Cleanthes and Chrysippes, Cato being maybe another one that maybe some people have heard of. You know, that was the process of kind of tracing it backwards. I think most people should start with the big three of the Stoics and then work their way back. There's a reason that they're the ones that are most well known. And that is a really cool thing. It just blows your mind about history, where you're like, okay, to Marcus Aurelius, Stoicism was ancient philosophy. Ancient philosophy, like five, like Zeno is to Marcus Aurelius what Shakespeare is to us.

[Mike Duncan]

I was quoting Plutarch the other day. The imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics. Says it, you know, I don't know. 50, 70 A.D. yes. The oldest and most fatal ailment. It's. But.

[Ryan Holiday]

And you take Plutarch.

Right again.

Yeah, probably. One of the great biographers, Truman, would talk about how whenever he had a problem as president, he could pull out. He said, I pull up my old friend Plutarch. My old friend. My old friend Plutarch, and he would have the solution to my problems. But Plutarch is writing about Caesar and Cicero and Demosthenes and all these Greek and Roman figures who were to him what he is to us. Not quite that far, but we think about ancient Greece and Rome as this kind of brief moment, as opposed to a civilization that lasted hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Even the decline and fall of rome is like 900 years. You know, maybe a little bit less than that, depending on where you want to date it to.

[Mike Duncan]

But the point is that should give us comfort in the us it does

[Ryan Holiday]

a little bit, but it gives you. You just realize that they were like when they were going through stuff, when Marx Realis is living through civil war, or Cato is living through a civil war, or Seneca is in exile or enduring the reign of Nero, what are they turning to? They're turning to the ancients, who we are also turning to. And then what we have is generations. This is why they call philosophy the great conversation, because it's these core ideas that were sort of brought into existence at some point, but the genius of them is the layering on top of each subsequent generation trying and riffing. And just as the founders, I gave you Jeffrey Rosen's the Pursuit of Happiness. The founders were turning to the stokes that my 9 year old's obsessed with.

Hamilton.

[Mike Duncan]

Oh, good.

[Ryan Holiday]

The play Hamilton, the most famous play in the western world in the 18th century, was a play about Cato. And it was as famous as Hamilton is now. And in the way that, you know, like if you go immigrants, they get the job done. People know what you're talking about when. When George Washington would talk about looking at events through the calm light of mild philosophy. Or when they say, I regret I have but one life to give for my country. These are lines from that play. And so it's this great tradition of these ideas being just so perfectly expressed and the example being so powerful that people have been turning to it over and over again. That's the really powerful thing Stoicism wasn't. Marcus realized it was 600 years of it in Greece and Rome. And then, I mean, it continues on up. It's not like people haven't been talking about and riffing about it in the 1800 years since. They absolutely have. And so it's just this energy I think you tap into and you go, oh, these are ideas that have really been tested in the crucible of human experience.

[Mike Duncan]

Was the word stoic? I mean, when Zeno was 300 BC or something said, I declare myself a Stoic, or was he declared a Stoic?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I think it's to Zeno's credit that the philosophy is not called Zenoism. Right. There's a little bit right at the beginning. There's some humility. So stoa. So the founding story of Stoicism is Zeno's a merchant and he deals in this rare purple dye. And that die being a commodity in those days.

[Mike Duncan]

Dying purple.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. We, we, we, we think of, like, it's funny where the Strait of Hormuz is shut down. Global trade, that's the modern thing. It's like, no, the purple dye was this commodity that, that was made across multiple islands in the Mediterranean. And it would get traded and moved around like the same, the same navigational issues we're having right now people were talking about then. But he suffers this shipwreck. He washes up in Athens and ends up there discovering philosophy. And that's where Stoicism starts. But he just begins lecturing about these ideas on the Stoa poquile, which is the painted porch in Athens. And that's what Stoic means. It just. Stoa means porch. It doesn't mean anything. These are just the guys from the porch bullshitting and talking and sharing. It is funny then, that he would talk about. That's this merchant of purple dye. His philosophy would become the philosophy we associate with Marcus Aurelius. Because I could tell you, mouthing the words there. One of the powerful lines in Meditations is Marcus Rios says, this is a reference to being emperor. He says, be careful that you are not dyed purple. And he's saying that, make sure that power doesn't corrupt you.

[Mike Duncan]

God bless.

[Ryan Holiday]

Because the Roman emperor was one of the few that could wear the color purple.

[Mike Duncan]

So you're reading all of this, your portal to this beginning with Meditations, which has had an outsized influence and on everybody that's ever picked up.

[Ryan Holiday]

Did you pick it up?

[Mike Duncan]

Picked up all the wrong versions.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

Couldn't understand a damn thing.

[Ryan Holiday]

Interesting.

[Mike Duncan]

I look back, it's interesting. I must have 15 or 20 different copies. Wow. And it took me listening to you on damn YouTube to go, here's the one I recommend. I'm like, start reading. I'm like, wait, then this makes some sense. Because the translations are, you know, time of. Back to decades and decades ago. So I think my father, someone, you know, was around. And then here, my uncle says, here's a book you should read. I'm like, Jesus, you know, last thing. So they just sort of collected dust. But there were a few efforts.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mike Duncan]

And they just didn't go anywhere because it didn't speak to me with the kind of language that I understand today.

[Ryan Holiday]

I I do. I don't believe in miracles, but I went on Amazon and I just bought a random copy that I got. The first one I like. I got the copy that, that changed my life and I've now recommended it to so many people that just. That's the first. The algorithm blessed me for someone who's so critical of algorithms. In that one case, the algorithm. Bless me.

[Mike Duncan]

By the way, one of the things I love that you do is you'll go back to the same. You'll go to different translations.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

And you're able to sort of lay them out. And I mean, it shows, I mean, you know, how language is radically changed.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, that.

[Mike Duncan]

And how important the translation is.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. I mean, so I don't speak Greek or Latin, so I don't, I don't know exactly. But it is interesting when you read all these different translations, you go, oh, like this is the same idea and 15 different cuts on it. And what a big role the translator plays. And also what a big role, the moment in time that you're in play. So how we like how you interpret

[Mike Duncan]

it in the context of something contemporary.

[Ryan Holiday]

So I've been reading meditation for 15 years and then 20, 20 pandemic hits and I'm reading meditations and all of a sudden there's all these references to the plague and to pestilence. And you realize, oh, this is a plague book. This guy wrote in the middle of the antonine plague, this 15 year pandemic that killed millions of people.

[Mike Duncan]

And you never picked up on that. I mean, necessarily.

[Ryan Holiday]

I guess I just, you don't. You think he's being metaphorical?

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then, and then you realize he's being literal. Like one of the passages I thought the most about during the pandemic is this one where he goes, there's two types of plagues. There's the one that can destroy your health and the one that can destroy your character. And then you watch over the next two years, people get radicalized. People turn off their hearts and their neighborliness to other people and in other cases lose their mind, become, you know, do and say things they, they would have been shocked by just a few years earlier. And you go, oh, that, he must have seen that. You know, he must, he must have seen that. And, and I think there's a, there's a famous story about Marcus Aurelius. He's presiding over some court and one of the lawyers makes this reference to the victims of the plague and he just bursts into tears. And so you think, number one, I thought the stoics don't have emotions. I thought they don't care about people. And here he is just sort of weeping over these untold thousands of people who have died, in some cases, people we would have cared deeply about and been very close to. And you go, oh, that's not what stoicism isn't. This, fuck you, I got mine. Or like, I got a strong immune system.

[Mike Duncan]

Did you think it was when you first heard about it? Because so many people see it as just, yeah, I'm just. I will have no emotion. I'm just being stoic. You know, it's sort of rigid, robotic.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think what I was. I was attracted to stoicism for the reason that young men have been attracted to stoicism for centuries, which is. It's about getting your shit together, getting it on lock, you know, that sort of ownership and control of the self, which I think if anyone needs help in, it's young men. So I think that was my initial attraction to it. And then. And I think I was attracted to trappings of power and, you know, all the. All the things that make it, you know, interesting and unique compared to, I don't know, existentialism or some other school of philosophy. But over the years, you realize, oh, this is actually a profoundly ethical philosophy. This is about our connections to other people. This is about our responsibilities to other people. When they're talking about excellence, they don't simply mean professional excellence. And that actually, professional excellence is pretty common, but professional and personal excellence, like sort of rounding that package out, is actually the sort of thing to be more ambitious about. So I think my initial attraction to it was one thing, and then what. It works on you. And I think it's interesting to hear you talk about sort of starting and stopping it over the years. It's important that people understand stoicism is a philosophy you should be reading, not a philosophy you have read.

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[Mike Duncan]

also, you make the point. I don't remember exactly who said it, but you never swim in the same river twice.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mike Duncan]

This notion that the river's changed or stepped in the same river. I'll swim in it, too.

[Ryan Holiday]

I like that. Too.

[Mike Duncan]

American. Just up the block where you were growing up. But. But we change as well.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mike Duncan]

And back to this. You know, you're reading it again, and now we're in a plague, and all of a sudden you're reading it as. I mean, almost as a new visitor to the same old.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I think it's so fascinating that. Yeah, you picked up a book when you were one age, you picked it up again another. It continually wasn't working. And then at some point, and I bet if you actually laid those translations out side by side, they're not that different.

[Mike Duncan]

They're not that different.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think you were. You were profoundly different.

[Mike Duncan]

Well, I was trying to find language, period. I, you know, wrote a book about my own learning disability. So just, I mean, literally the words just above my pay grade, that needs to be explained to me. I remember Shakespeare class in college. I mean, your toast is a dyslexic. You're like, me, do thot. I mean, Jesus. So you're like, immediately trying to find a Cliff Note version or something on TV that you could claim that I read or understood.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

So no, it's. So you did all that, you know, so you're reading this, but you weren't necessarily going, wait a second. This is my new path, my career that I'm going to become, you know, I'm going to translate this to a whole different audience, that I'm going to be able to express this with new media. I'm going to be able to get a whole new generation to understand and bring to life these extraordinary figures.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, I mean, I was introduced to The Stoics in 2006, and my first book on Stoic philosophy came out in summer of 2014.

[Mike Duncan]

And what was the inspiration? What said, I have to do my version of this, but plenty written about Stoics.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I don't know. I wrote my first book because I wanted to be a writer, and I knew that that book had to come first. You couldn't write the Stoic books and then the media book. So I knew I had to get the media book out of the way. So I did the media book first. And then what I really wanted to write about was the Stoics. But no, I thought I had this idea for one soapbook about this one passage from Marcus Reeves. That was it again, Obstacles.

[Mike Duncan]

What stands in the way becomes the way.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mike Duncan]

Love it. Come on.

[Ryan Holiday]

I know I heard say this somewhere.

[Mike Duncan]

I mean, it's too good.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's the best.

[Mike Duncan]

It's the best. The impediment to action becomes the action stands the way becomes the way.

[Ryan Holiday]

But you want to know something funny about that quote again? You evolve your understanding of these things as you could. So I wrote the book the Obstacles Away, mostly about how we deal with, like, professional obstacles.

Right.

Like, how you're trying to, like, do something and something gets in the way, which is obviously what he's partly talking about there. But the fuller quote, which obviously I knew because I edited to put some ellipses in there. But mostly what he's talking about is annoying people and obnoxious people. He's saying people can cause problems for us. They can get in our way.

[Mike Duncan]

But

[Ryan Holiday]

he says we always have the ability to accommodate and adapt. He says we can convert this to our own, our own potential acting. And then he says the impediment. Action advances action. What stands in the way becomes a way. And then you go, oh, okay. So when he's saying some person comes up and says something horrible to you, or some person screws something up for you, or some person is just constantly stressing you out or abusing you or whatever it is, what he's saying is that that's an opportunity for you to be the better person, the bigger person, to grow as a person in wrestling with and handling what this person is doing to you. And so you go, oh, okay. When the stoics are saying the obstacles away, they don't necessarily mean, oh, this is a chance to. Hey, this huge recession that we just got plunged into is actually a chance for you to retrench in the business and tighten things up and come back smarter and leaner and more organized. It may be, but he's saying, actually, this person who just broke your heart, or this person who just lied to you or stole from you, or this person who just said something horrible to you, they're a chance for you to grow as a human being in how you respond to them. That is obviously not my reading of the passage when I'm 19, but it's how I understand it 20 years later.

[Mike Duncan]

And you understand it sort of the core part of what you said is sort of, for you, if you were going to distill the essence of stoicism, this notion that we have agency, that it's not what happens to us, how we respond to what happens to us.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah. I'd be curious to find some line of work in which that's not the case. The case.

Right.

Like you wake up and somebody gives you the news, and then you figure out your job is to say, here's

what we're gonna do.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, but so much of our life is this sort of victim mentality that, you know, that it's fate and we can't control our own fate. You know, systems rigged against me. There's nothing I can do. Nothing one person can do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. Who? This is, whose fault it is. This is how, why it should have gone the other way. Just a lot of, A lot of dwelling on why it happened as opposed to what you're gonna do about it.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah. So it's interesting to me just, you know, I, I write a little bit and some of my, my friends like, why are you writing about Tony Robbins? But it's interesting. I, I write about it because I was, you know, around your age and all of a sudden my contemporary version of dare I say how dare you was this guy with, you know, who self described with big teeth on, you know, on infomercials selling me cassette tapes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

And I listened to those today and I'm like, so much is, you know.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I do think that, that there's a little bit there that's just a complete indictment of philosophy as a whole these days. Right. Like, like that, that, that is, that's what Socrates was doing. That's what, that's what Aristotle was doing. They were, they were trying, I mean, Socrates gets killed for corrupting the youth, which is to say teaching the, the young boys what they need to know about life that their parents didn't want them to know. Right. Or challenging convention or, or teaching them a new way of thinking. And I guess it just says something that philosophy does not speak to people in a way that it's supposed to. It is supposed to be the guide to the good life, which to me the American dream is both a financial dream, but also a sort of moral and a spiritual dream of a better life. And philosophy is supposed to be part of that. And it's just, just, it's just not. And I think we're in extra trouble when, you know, organized religion has not just fallen away, but also alienated huge swaths of the population. Whether you're talking about the abuse scandals in the Catholic Church, which is what I grew up in, or you're looking at the sort of political radicalization of sort of evangelical faith. And so if you're not going to have traditions and sort of rituals, you're also not going to have religion. What are you. Where are people supposed to learn this stuff? And it's, I think, created a huge vacuum that certain bad actors have stepped in to fill.

[Mike Duncan]

And you haven't become a bad actor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks.

[Mike Duncan]

You talk about. Because you talked. We can go back to March 2020 and sort of beginning and we could talk about that pandemic. People, you know, I mean, I. Explains more things in more ways on more days of, of everything.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Mike Duncan]

Our relationships back to truth and trust is certainly our politics I didn't fully absorb it, appreciate it at the time, and what we've become on the other side and what people became people. I don't. They were unrecognizable to this day that went through that process. We can get to Elon Musk in a minute, but I knew him well before.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's my favorite part of your book. You talked about how you came of age as all. You came of age at the same time as all those Silicon Valley people.

[Mike Duncan]

I was with Larry and Sergey at Google, and when Steve Jobs taps us on the shoulder and says, hey, he wasn't interested in me. He was interested in Larry and Sergey to show us pulled out of his back pocket, the first iPhone. And we're like, you know, it was like a joyride. We're going with our fingers like, oh, we. And they're all.

[Ryan Holiday]

By far.

[Mike Duncan]

You know, they were just in. There was sense of optimism back to when you were writing this book.

[Ryan Holiday]

So what happened?

Like, I think that that quote where Elon Musk is on Rogan and he says, you know, empathy is going to be the death of Western civilization. That, to me, was. Was one. And then when I watched Mark Andreessen talk about how he has zero introspection and. And he's like, I never look back. He goes, I never look backwards. It's like, by the way, that's not what introspection is. Just to be like, you clearly don't even know what it is. Like, introspection is looking inwards just to be clear, not looking backwards. But he goes, you know, the great men of history, they didn't look around. They didn't. It's like the bad ones, you know, the ones who were responsible for genocides and pointless wars and ecological disasters and economic calamities, yes, they had no sense of introspection or history or perspective. But the great ones, whether you're talking about FDR or Truman or Theodore Roosevelt,

[Mike Duncan]

Washington or Lincoln, the best of the best.

[Ryan Holiday]

All the great. All the greats. And I just named a bunch of white dudes. So I'm sorry, but, like, you know, you could.

[Mike Duncan]

We could talk about that, too. And where women are in the stoic.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, you could expand. But the point is that the great historical figures are, by definition, profoundly considerate and conscientious people. And when. When they're not, it is responsible for their biggest failings. And so.

[Mike Duncan]

So what's happened?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I was.

[Mike Duncan]

What happened?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, what happened?

[Mike Duncan]

And what happened to you that you didn't fall prey to all that? I mean, You. You. I mean, your rise has just gone. I mean, it's. You can. You were wildly successful before the pandemic, but, you know, I mean, now the ubiquity and your success, it's just exploded.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, but.

[Mike Duncan]

But it's. But it suggests that people are. They're not. They haven't necessarily been sold that bill of goods either, that they're looking for something different.

[Ryan Holiday]

I mean, look, I've definitely experienced some success at small potatoes compared to being one of the richest or most powerful people in the world. So I don't want to judge people whose thing, whose sort of experience is something I can't even comprehend. But it does seem weird that these people, many of whom I also knew or met over the years and thought were one thing and sort of revealed themselves to be another. What do you. What's your explanation?

[Mike Duncan]

I'm struggling with it, and I've been strong. I mean, I struggle with it a little bit in the book, even, you know, who I was becoming. I mean, I was, you know, And. And, you know, God bless. I was reading one of your books for years ago and took a little indirect shot at me, and I thought it was completely.

[Ryan Holiday]

What did I say?

[Mike Duncan]

You just say, you know, back. I don't even want to get back.

[Ryan Holiday]

I don't even.

[Mike Duncan]

One of the most important stories, you always say, what?

[Ryan Holiday]

What?

[Mike Duncan]

During the plague, what Marcus Aurelius did, he sold all the things. And here I was going to a damn restaurant, and you made it. And I'm like, you know what? Fair. And it was legit. It hurt. It hurt because it was right. And of course, I knew I was no greater critic of me than me. And so I appreciate it. But. So I. You know, but in a lot of what I write about in this book, I mean, talk about ego.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. No, you. There's some words in there.

[Mike Duncan]

I mean, the whole thing. I mean, I just. I laid it all out and I laid my. Myself out in this sort of journey of discovery, this memoir of discovery and discovering myself and my own, you know, but, you know, expectations and how I was living in other people's expectations.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

I was kind of losing myself and how now. And I think it's why sort of really dove deep into your work. It just so sort of all coincided. I'm like, oh, you know, just. Literally just breathe again, then have perspective and grace and humility.

[Ryan Holiday]

So you're saying introspection, like the thing they are running away from.

[Mike Duncan]

Running away from it. The coarseness. Yeah. That's why I've got Forgive me, I didn't mean to put you behind these knee pads. And I think about with Trump, I mean, the obstacles away. To me, it's so profound in the context of how I'm dealing with the challenges and the obstacle which stands in the way of decent, from my perspective, decency, lack of character, all those. Those cardinal virtues that you write so beautifully about, this notion of justice and this notion of what courage really is and temperance, all these found in what discipline looks. It's anathema to what we have today. And. But I think about. All right, obstacle is the way stands, the way becomes the way. So how we can sort of with agency.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

You know, manifest and take responsibility and have the discipline and the character to, you know, not just identify the problems, but begin to march strategies and iteration to address these problems and to move in a more enlightened direction. And again, you've been a huge part of that for millions of us.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's.

[Mike Duncan]

But. But certainly for the guy sitting here as the current occupant of the governor's

[Ryan Holiday]

mansion, that's unbelievable to me. I think, you know, there's this passage in Meditations where Marx Ruis talks about fighting to be the person that philosophy tried to make you. And I think about that. That's what he's doing in Meditations is he's trying to be better than whatever he could get away with or whatever he might just be on his own. He's sort of aspiring to be some greater self. And it does feel like in the sort of Silicon Valley kind of like, leadership class, there is this. And Trump, I think, obviously hastened it, but it's this kind of like, why. Why should you try to be better? Why just do what you want, get yours when you're famous, they let you do it. And it's like the embracing of that and the idea of why. One of my favorite headlines of all time, there's this Huffington post headline from 15 years ago, and it says, I don't know how to explain to you that you're supposed to care about other people and that. That. And. And it really does feel like. Like there was this concerted effort in a small group of people to just let themselves off the hook for being responsible for or to anyone, despite the incredible power and privilege that they enjoy.

[Mike Duncan]

There you go. There you go. And we're. I mean, it's. And we're living with the consequences of that. I mean, we, you know, we've hit it on, you know, young men. But you, you know, subtly made the point. I'LL make it more express. Young men are in crisis.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mike Duncan]

And it's interesting how you connect tradition and rituals and you know, now, I mean, we're seeing a little bit now with religion, people are fighting religion a little bit again. But we've lost those institutions, that connection to each other. I am. Because you are this notion of Ubuntu, this commonwealth, you know, and this and, and, and of course with algorithms and now this manosphere, broadly defined and you know, Hustlers University and Bugatti. Bugatti, get mine. And you know, and, and all the just patriarchy that comes in there. I mean, and these guys sometimes trying to attach these. Damn.

[Ryan Holiday]

I know, I know. It's, it's. I try to say it's not. Stoicism is not a formula for you to be a better sociopath.

[Mike Duncan]

God bless.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's supposed to do the opposite. It's supposed to, it's supposed to help you. Because look, we're all inherently selfish. We are all self interested. The Stoics talk about this like you come out of the womb being like inherently not just dependent on others, but you will suck your parents dry, literally and figuratively, so you can survive. That's what your genes are designed for,

[Mike Duncan]

for you to do.

[Ryan Holiday]

And that maturation or growth, the Stoics would say, is the overcoming of that. Realizing that you have these obligations and duties to not just these people immediately around you, but everyone else. There's this Stoic named Hierakles and he talked about the circles of concern and that he said the purpose of the philosophy is pulling these outer rings inwards. And to me, that like when I heard that, I was like, oh, that's what they were talking about in church as a kid. That's also what Jesus was talking about. And so there is actually if Catholicism especially because it has those cardinal virtues. I think you sort of, you immediately recognize it in the Stoics that, oh, this was the tradition before that tradition and that there's a lot of overlap there.

[Mike Duncan]

Yeah, well, I love me just. Even when we were celebrating the 250th anniversary of the Declaration, Best of Roman Republic, best of Greek democracy. I mean, back to your point in terms, even the books, you just. Thank you for the books, but just reminding me the founding Fathers, the direct inspiration from these greats.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Washington's the only one of the founders who doesn't read the Stoics in Greek or Latin. Like he only reads them in English because they were so like Jefferson, as Jefferson has Seneca in French on his nightstand. When he dies. And so like, these were incredibly literate philosophical figures. And, and the primary influence on the founders was not those English legal thinkers. It was the, when they're writing the Federalist Papers and they're masquerading as these Roman characters, they're thinking about Cato, they're thinking about Seneca, they're thinking about Marcus Aurelius. Those are the people who are influencing them the most. And you know, that, that, that does go back to I think, the founding of America, which we've fundamentally misunderstood this idea that yes, on the one hand, this is a country about freedom where you're. The state can't tell you how to be or how to live. Your, your individual behavior is not legally prescribed the way that it would be in another society. But, but they were very much of the mind that all that freedom was to be counterbalanced by a sense of virtue in the people. And John Adams said, like, hey, without it we're fucked. Like the Constitution cannot. Is not strong enough. He says, like a whale through a net.

[Mike Duncan]

Like a whale through a net. I love that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Foreign.

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