Bert Kreischer Has a Stoicism Problem

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast
Episode: Bert Kreischer Has a Stoicism Problem
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guest: Bert Kreischer
Date: January 28, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Ryan Holiday sits down with comedian Bert Kreischer, known for his wild stage persona and shirtless performances, to discuss Bert’s skepticism (and secret fascination) with Stoicism. What unfolds is a lively, candid, and often hilarious conversation that examines the misconceptions, challenges, and very real struggles of trying to live by Stoic philosophy in today’s world—especially when your life is as unpredictable and public as Bert's. The conversation weaves personal stories, historical anecdotes, and deep questions about achievement, self-worth, and how to handle criticism—both internal and external.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Phone Call Origin Story of Bert’s Stoicism Skepticism

• (00:30–04:35)
  • Ryan recounts the unexpected phone call from Tom Segura, in which Bert was “shitting all over stoicism” and called it “stupid and a dumb way to live.”
  • Bert admits, “just the name stoic is not how I live my life. Like, I'm not stoic.” (04:35, Bert Kreischer)
  • Tom Segura requests Ryan to give Bert a “basic principle of stoicism,” leading into a simple breakdown of Stoicism’s core: “We don’t control what happens in the world, but we control how we respond.” (Ryan, 02:46)

2. Misconceptions and Stereotypes of Stoicism

• (04:35–08:09)
  • Bert jokes about not being able to relate to the “stoic” personality, confusing historical figures, and being a natural extrovert.
  • Will Compton jokes about Marcus Aurelius being the “old guy who dies in Gladiator,” highlighting common pop-culture confusion.
  • Ryan clarifies: “Stoicism is not some wallflower cynicism. It's perfectly wonderful to enjoy your success. The only problem is if you think it makes you special or that you could die without it.” (04:48, Ryan Holiday)

3. Vulnerability, Not Being Taken Seriously, and Career Reflections

• (08:10–13:50)
  • Bert opens up about being typecast as the “comedian who takes his shirt off,” and how that overshadows his storytelling ability: “A lot of people blow me off because I take my shirt off...they overlook the catalog.” (08:17, Bert Kreischer)
  • He relates a real-life story that inspired his show’s premise, being flown out for a high-paying corporate gig where the crowd only wanted his “greatest hits.”
  • Bert confesses, “I do want to fit in...that’s not popular online...but what am I supposed to do? That’s who I am.” (13:36, Bert Kreischer)

4. Bert’s Near-Death Waterfall Story: Stoic or Not?

• (11:09–13:55)
  • Bert narrates rappelling off a waterfall for a TV show, having a reflective, present moment before things go awry and he falls, barely surviving.
  • Ryan observes the Stoic themes in the story—taking stock, appreciating where you are—but points out the non-stoic moment: “Maybe the only non stoic thing was...if you’re screaming your head off while you’re hanging upside down.” (14:12, Ryan Holiday)

5. The Challenge of Being a Sensitive Extrovert in a Stoic World

• (13:55–16:05)
  • Bert discusses being a “raw nerve,” wanting to fit in, and wishing he could be more reserved like Stoic icons or even George Washington.
  • He grapples with the idea of holding back in conversation to be “more stoic,” but concedes that's not authentic to himself.

6. Public Criticism, Hurt Feelings, and Celebrity Anxiety

• (16:15–18:53)
  • Bert reveals the sting of a negative headline: “Bert Kreischer ruins Christmas Day,” and how disproportionately such criticism affects him.
  • He acknowledges, “If I get upset or if I get my feelings hurt, it’s uncontrollable...massive instant anxiety...this ruined half the day.” (17:16, Bert Kreischer)
  • His family gives competing advice—one daughter rationalizes the critic, the other urges him to “Google his name” for payback, highlighting the tension between Stoic detachment and emotional reactivity.

7. Stoicism as a Practice, Not a Trait

• (20:00–23:05)
  • Ryan explains Stoicism is not an innate characteristic but an ongoing practice: “If it’s not work, you don’t get any credit for it...everyone is struggling with it.” (20:25, Ryan Holiday)
  • He cites stories of George Washington’s fiery temper and the intentional self-control beneath the surface.
  • Both admit to being affected by online criticism, and Ryan describes digital boundaries (“my social media is on my wife’s phone”) as a Stoic strategy.

8. The Risks of Overworking & The Value of Restraint

• (26:12–30:58)
  • Bert confesses to having “squandered” talent and burning out, prompting him and Tom Segura to scale back their workload on their podcast “Two Bears, One Cave.”
  • “To pull back a little bit is the stoic way—to not overwork. Restraint is the stoic way,” (26:18, Ryan Holiday)
  • Both discuss how scary it is to step off the professional “merry-go-round”—the anxiety of being forgotten—but how doing less is crucial to preserving quality and joy in their work.

9. The Problem of “Enough” and Moving the Goalposts

• (30:53–31:42)
  • The conversation explores the ever-moving definition of “enough”—whether it’s money, success, or fame, and the self-defeating pursuit of more.
  • “The problem is that you always move that number,” (30:58, Ryan Holiday) leading to chasing fulfillment that is never fully attainable.

10. Jealousy, Comparison, and Authenticity in Artistic Communities

• (35:17–39:28)
  • Bert laments the prevalence of jealousy and shifting dynamics among comics as people become successful.
  • Ryan shares wisdom: “Work, family, scene—pick two,” recommending limiting involvement in industry gossip or comparison as a Stoic strategy.
  • “It’s just better to be doing your own thing and running your own race.” (38:48, Ryan Holiday)

11. Channel Markers, Unconventional Paths, and Seneca

• (38:48–40:29)
  • Bert introduces the “channel marker” analogy—looking for mentors and examples like Joe Rogan and Bill Burr to guide his own path.
  • Ryan reads a passage from Seneca: “Happiness is having a sense of the path that you're on. Not being distracted by paths that crisscross yours. Especially not following the footsteps of people who are lost.” (39:59, Ryan Holiday)
  • Bert jokes, “Seneca—I always thought he was just a different type of Toyota.” (40:24, Bert Kreischer)

12. History Deep Dive: Seneca, Nero, and the Dangers of Needing to Be Liked

• (40:29–43:47)
  • Ryan recounts the tortured relationship between Nero and his Stoic tutor Seneca—Nero as the archetype of needing to be liked and spinning out of control.
  • Bert: “You’re talking to the guy that’s on Testosterone and benching £325. Yeah, keep going.” (43:12, Bert Kreischer)
  • Ryan details the tragic stories of hubris, power, and loss of self, drawing parallels with contemporary anxieties around validation and legacy.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On misunderstanding stoicism:
  “Just the name stoic is not how I live my life. Like, I'm not stoic.” (04:35, Bert Kreischer)

• The “Dance Monkey” dilemma:
  “For 25 grand, you'd be shocked how hard this monkey dances.” (10:19, Bert Kreischer)

• On emotional vulnerability:
  “If I get upset or if I get my feelings hurt, it's uncontrollable... massive instant anxiety... this ruined half the day.” (17:16, Bert Kreischer)

• On Stoicism as intentional work:
  “If it’s not work, you don’t get any credit for it… everyone is struggling with it.” (20:25, Ryan Holiday)

• On the perils of endless craving:
  “The problem is that you always move that number.” (30:58, Ryan Holiday)

• On detachment and focus:
  “It’s just better to be doing your own thing and running your own race.” (38:48, Ryan Holiday)

• Misunderstanding Seneca:
  “Seneca—I always thought he was just a different type of Toyota, but he's fucking great.” (40:24, Bert Kreischer)

• Parallels with Nero:
  “Nero desperately wanted to be liked, and he desperately wanted to be liked as both an athlete and an artist...” (43:03, Ryan Holiday)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Bert’s Stoicism Beef: 00:30–04:35
• Basic Stoic Principles Explainer: 02:46–04:35
• Bert’s TV & Corporate Gig Story: 08:10–10:19
• Bert’s Waterfall Accident & Reflection: 11:09–13:55
• Bert on Sensitivity & Belonging: 13:50–16:05
• Negative Press/Online Criticism: 16:15–19:11
• Stoicism as Effortful Practice: 20:00–23:05
• Work-Life Boundaries & Podcasting: 26:12–30:58
• “Enough,” Money, & FOMO: 30:53–32:16
• Jealousy & the Comedy Scene: 35:17–39:28
• Seneca, Channel Markers, & Life Paths: 38:48–40:29
• Deep Dive: Seneca, Nero, & Needing Validation: 40:29–43:47

---

Episode Tone and Style

The episode has a playful yet vulnerable tone throughout. Bert’s loud, self-deprecating humor contrasts with his genuine introspection and longing for Stoic calm. Ryan guides the conversation with warmth and depth, providing historical context and practical insight without judgment. Their dynamic keeps the exchange quick, grounded, and often hilarious (Bert's wild analogies and Ryan’s measured patience are highlights). The episode is accessible and illuminating for anyone questioning what it means to adopt Stoic principles—and finding it surprisingly difficult.

---

For more on Stoicism and to access bonus content, visit DailyStoic.com.

(End of Part 1; Ryan notes that Part 2 will come later in the week.)

Transcript

[Grainger Commercial Narrator]

If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift. And you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Ryan Holiday]

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We. We survived the snowpocalypse. It was a long day. Sunday, long morning. All the schools were canceled. So got a little bonus morning with the kids. And now I am back sit in my office doing some writing. And it's funny, it occurred to me I was sitting in this very office. I was in this very chair. I don't remember exactly what I was working on. It's probably the wisdom book, maybe. Yeah, it would have been the wisdom book. This is the summer of 2024. And my. My phone rings and it's Tom Segura, the comedian who I know from when I did his podcast and he came out and did the Daily Stoic podcast, but he was calling me. And you know, these days you don't get a lot of phone calls. Everyone texts or emails or whatever, but it's just calling out of the blue. So I. And it's certainly not what I expected. He basically goes, hey, I'm sitting here with Bert Kreischer and he thinks stoicism sucks. Let me play this.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, we getting him on?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Hey, Ryan.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, come on.

[Will Compton]

Hey, what up?

[Tom Segura]

Hey, I'm here with Will Compton and Bert Kreischer, and Bert is shitting all over stoicism and says that it's stupid and it's a dumb way to live. And he thinks it's just, you know.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like they're paraphrasing Ryan, but they're real close.

[Ryan Holiday]

But they're.

[Tom Segura]

But we're close. So I was like, oh. Then he's like, yeah, I see this stuff come up on my feed and it's like fucking whatever. You know, it's just whatever. Marcus Aurelius, whatever.

[Bert Kreischer]

So he said, how the power of saying no. So stupid. You say stupid.

[Tom Segura]

I just say yes to everything.

[Bert Kreischer]

He just answered the phone with a hard yes, right? He should have said, send a voicemail He's a stone.

[Tom Segura]

Ryan, can you just, like, do you mind just giving, like, maybe a basic principle of stoicism that we can, you know, like, hopefully show Bert why this is a value, that he's angry at the wrong thing?

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah, I'm here. I'm like a Scientologist. I'm ready to be converted.

[Ryan Holiday]

All right.

[Will Compton]

Okay. So the basic idea of stoicism is that we don't control what happens in the world or around us, but we control how we respond to the world around us. It's pretty basic. I think it's pretty difficult to argue with. The idea is that instead of spending time stressing about what other people do, you focus on what you do. Instead of focusing on the mistakes you've made, you focus on how you're going to do better next time. And it's this idea that you try to go through the world around these sort of four main attributes. The sort of virtues of stoicism, again, I think are pretty hard to argue with. It's courage, self discipline, justice, and wisdom. So that. That's. That's the philosophy that has existed for, you know, 2,000 plus years. Some of the greatest, most powerful people in history have ascribed to it. And then all sorts of people who went through, you know, horrendous ordeals, whether they were thrown in prison for, you know, crimes they didn't commit or dealt with exile and death, and, you know, all the shit that life can throw at a person, they sort of turn to this philosophy. So it's not these abstract ideas that you would, you know, study in this boring college class. It's supposed to be a framework for dealing with the difficulty of life.

[Tom Segura]

Okay, okay, but what is your.

[Bert Kreischer]

What's the opposite. On the opposite of that, what is.

[Tom Segura]

Your main issue, like, against.

[Bert Kreischer]

Why.

[Tom Segura]

Why are you rolling your eyes at Marcus Aurelius? Like, what is that supposed to be like?

[Bert Kreischer]

Okay, so, like, just the name.

[Will Compton]

Is your familiarity with Marcus Aurelius birth that he's the old guy that dies at the beginning of Gladiator?

[Bert Kreischer]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He thinks there's just another guy somewhere in that world that he was full of shit. Wasn't. Marcus Aurelius is like Caesar's kid or something?

[Will Compton]

No, he was the emperor of Rome.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same, same, same, same. Nepo baby hundreds of years apart. But okay, okay, okay. So on the opposite, just the name stoic is not how I live my life. Like, I'm not stoic.

[Ryan Holiday]

So that was a surreal interruption. I usually don't Answer my phone or have it on do not disturb. I'm. I texted him after we followed up. I said, stoicism is not some wallflower cynicism. It's perfectly wonderful to enjoy your success. The only problem is if you think it makes you special or that you could die without it. And he says, I wish I had said that. You are one smart motherfucker. Which was nice. He says, so happy to have connected today. Despite my cynicism about stoicism, I'm kind of obsessed about it. And your name comes up on my tour bus sometimes. So we've gone back and forth. He's a nice guy. We connected when Mel Robbins was here because he had just had Mel Rob. Anyways, he came out to do the podcast on Friday and that's what I wanted to bring you today. I think he's a fascinating guy. I think he's a funny guy. And I just watched his new show on Netflix, Free Bert, which I thought was absolutely hilarious. And, you know, I wanted to see if his understanding of stoicism had changed since we last talked. And we really got into it. We had quite an in depth conversation about Nero, as you'll hear in this episode. And he also told some insane stories that would only happen to Bert Kreischer. I think you're really gonna like this episode. This is part. I'll bring you part two later in the week. If you don't know who Bert Kreischer is, you probably do. You just maybe not putting a face to the name. He's a hilarious comedian. He takes his shirt off a lot. Although as we talk about in the show, he does not want to be known for that. He's the host of Two Bears, One Cave with Tom Segura. When I did that podcast, Bert wasn't there, but you've probably seen some of their very viral clips. He was on the Tom Brady Roast and many other things. He had a huge movie on Netflix called the Machine, which is based on one of his most infamous stories. And he tours arenas all over the world. You can follow Bert on all platforms Urtkreischer and watch Free Burt on Netflix. Samantha and I watched all six episodes before they came out. And then it just debuted, actually the day he was there. And we really enjoyed it. It was hilarious and I loved this episode and I think you will too. Well, I loved the show. I thought it was hilarious.

[Bert Kreischer]

You watched it?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I watched it. All six? Yeah, all six.

[Bert Kreischer]

Well, this interview's over.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. No, no, I thought it was funny. Cause my Kids just started at, like, a fancy school, and I could relate.

[Bert Kreischer]

You run into. I mean, my kids are in college now, but you run into those dads that are like, you wanna do coke? And you're like, no one.

[Ryan Holiday]

No one's asked me to do coke.

[Bert Kreischer]

I live in la.

[Ryan Holiday]

But, yeah, it kind of puts you back in being in school again. Cause you're like, there's a hierarchy. It's weird. With, like, the youngest parents. It's like. It's a weird.

[Bert Kreischer]

I remember. When do you remember the first time you heard the phrase, oh, it's all politics? Like, as a kid, Y. It was like. For me, it was All Star Baseball, and I was one of the best players at age 7. And I didn't make the All Star team.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay.

[Bert Kreischer]

And then I was like, why didn't I make the All Star? I was one of the best players in the entire league. And they're like, it's politics.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

I was like, what? And they're like, well, the older kids, their dads are coaches and they're going to make the All Star team because it's their last year in this league, so you're going to have another year, so you'll be on the All Star team next year. And I was like, well, this is so stupid. And then I looked at my dad and I go, why don't you just become a coach so I can be on the All Star team? And he was like, okay.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's a lot of that.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, I thought it was good. I thought it was a great show. Thank you.

[Bert Kreischer]

That's all that matters. Thank you.

[Ryan Holiday]

One of the themes I took from the show is, like, people not taking you seriously. Yeah. Does that feel real to you?

[Bert Kreischer]

100%. That's why I put it in.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah. I mean, I'll be very candid, and I understand that people may receive this the wrong way, but after listening to enough of your fucking book, I listen to it as I sleep, and I think I understand stoicism now. I think a lot of people blow me off because I take my shirt off and they kind of maybe look past the fact that I'm like, a really good storyteller, which is completely fine. Listen, there's a lot of people that only come because I take my shirt off and I've had a really great career. I wasn't supposed to have any of this career, so I can't really. Crap. It's like someone saying, Jimmy Buffett sings Cheeseburger in Paradise. He's not a good musician. And you're like, hold on. He's got some bangers. Like, you're overlooking the catalog.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

And so. Yeah. But it does sit with me sometimes when you're like. Cause you'll read a comment, which I know is a stoic. You're not supposed to do, and it'll be like, this guy, all he does is a fat alcoholic who takes his shirt off. Which is accurate. There's a little more. There's like, there should be a dot, dot, dot to that. And I leaned in when I offered up. The very intro to this of the TV show to the writers and producers is based off a real story that happened to me at a corporate. I went to a corporate, and I was like. And they're like, they're huge fans. They're huge fucking fans. I was like, for real? And they're like, yeah, hedge fund. I was in Vail. They flew me out for vail. It was 25 grand. I'd fallen off a waterfall two days before. And my wife's like, baby, you can't miss this show. 25 grand was like, a game changer for us.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

So I went out and I was like. I was, like, looking at them. I was like, I don't have anything in common with any dude in here.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I was like, what do they like about me? And then I got up on stage and I ripped my shirt off and went bananas. And I started with my material, and one guy was like, hold on. I'm gonna stop you right now before you get too far. Do the shirt one more time and tell the machine. And then we're good. And I was like, huh? He was like, just do the shirt one more time and go right into the machine. That's what I told everyone about. So, like, and then we're good. And then you'll come drink with us and just give us nicknames. And I was like, okay. So I did it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Dance monkey.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah. But for 25 grand, you'd be shocked how hard this monkey dances.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, Yeah, I get it.

[Bert Kreischer]

And so then I did it. And then I drank with them. They eat pills and they were like, they're just rich. They want to do coke. And I was pain pillows because of my fall.

[Ryan Holiday]

And how did you fall off a waterfall?

[Bert Kreischer]

I feel like you in a moment of non. Stoicism. I love talking about stoicism.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Because I believe in the. And by the way, I am wildly ready to be turned onto stoicism.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay.

[Bert Kreischer]

I'm wildly ready for it because I think I need it. I've Listened to your book on repeat. When I sleep every night, every night, and I pick up at parts and I fall asleep at parts, and I kind of remember parts. I can't tell if it's Tommy Jefferson or George Washington. And so like. But I love the boxer slept. I love everything. So.

[Ryan Holiday]

But wait, what book?

[Bert Kreischer]

I have no idea, dude.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay. Is it my book?

[Bert Kreischer]

Owen Holiday, that's your voice.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay. Okay. So now that they got it.

[Bert Kreischer]

So in a moment of non stoicism, I was rappelling off a waterfall for work. And it was the last episode of Trip Flip, right before I got fired from the Travel Channel. I always realized this is all going to go away, even life. I think about that in the mornings when I wake up. But I always. I have a very fleeting feeling in life of like, I remember the last time. I remember when Birth Conqueror was about to get. I knew it was canceled. And I got into a town car to go to a theme park in la. And I remember getting in the town car going, enjoy this. This may be the very last town car you get in because they're expensive.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I was rappelling off a waterfall, and I had a moment. I said, you've done a lot of really cool stuff for Travertown. This might be the last cool thing you do. And I was like, hey, man, take a minute. Take it in.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I turned and I looked. I was like 210ft up, and I overlooked this canyon in North Carolina. And I was like, this is beautiful. And I was like, let's have a moment, like, just me and you, Bert. Just me and you. And I kind of started fucking around. And then I decided to swing out wide. And as I did, my foot hit some algae and I flipped upside down in the waterfall. And I started getting waterboarded by the waterfall, upside down. It's now hitting me in the face and it won't spin me back around. And I don't know. I have video of it. I don't know what happened if I. But I let go. My backhand let go and I dropped like 25ft onto a rock. And I thought. I really thought I broke my back.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

But I didn't. I was fine. But I mean, I'm not fine. It took me a while to recover. And then I was laying in a hospital bed. I told my wife, and then she was like, well, you have that corporate in Vail. And I was like, baby, I fell off a waterfall. And she goes, hey, I love you. It's 25 grand. She's like, Isla and I will meet you at the Denver airport. We'll get you to Vail, we'll get you in and out of the gig, and then we'll get you home. And I was like, all right. But that's so. Like, everything in the TV show is based off something in real life. And I just wanted to pull from, like, you know, the thing I'm drawn to about stoicism is. And I don't know if it's real or not. I don't know if you have to work on it. I don't know if it's forced. I don't know if you're a natural stoic or not. I don't know if you are what I am, which is a natural. Like, I'm a raw nerve. But the thing that I drew from that or that I'd drawn towards it is. And I leaned into this is like, I am a very sensitive person and I do want to fit in and I do want people to like me. And I know that that's not popular online. I know they call that something like a try hard. I go, okay, cool. But what am I supposed to do? Like, that's who I am. If I go to a party and I don't know you, I'm gonna introduce myself to you. I know I'm not supposed to. I know that we're supposed to stand in the fucking corner like we're all fucking Bill Burr and Joe Rogan. But you're not. I know them. No one's them. Okay. And so, like, I, like, I am just me. I'm Bert.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And so I tried to put as much of that in the show and show my kind of warts and all. Like. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

I would say everything up until. When you're fiddling with the. The gear that you're not supposed to mess with, it seems pretty stoic. Taking stock, being present, appreciating the thing. That's all. What part of the story do you think is not stoic?

[Bert Kreischer]

When I started swinging out going, like, let's have a little fun.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay. I think having fun counts too. Maybe the only non stoic thing was be like, if you're screaming your head off while you're hanging upside down, I was.

[Bert Kreischer]

I was screaming my fucking head off. I was getting, by the way. It's the second time it had happened to me. And the first time I was only 8ft in the opposite air. So when I let go, I was fine. And then I just, like, I didn't know how high I was, but yeah, I get confused by stoicism, and I want to be it, but I felt like at a period of time, I was listening to guys who were getting beaten up online saying, yeah, I read a book about stoicism. That's what I am now. And then I was like, huh.

[Ryan Holiday]

Cause that's how we got connected. I remember I was just sitting in my office one day, and Tom called me, and he said, I'm talking with Bert, and he thinks stoicism is bullshit. And that's, I think, how we got connected.

[Bert Kreischer]

Okay. So I don't want to shit on him, but my assistant Kyle, who you might have met, and I'm just saying, like, this is a perfect example. We all sit in the bus one time, and he was homeschooled, and we were like, was that hard going to parties? He was like, no, I was the mysterious guy. And thank you. I love that you laughed, because we were like, hey, buddy. We all went to parties, and we didn't know anybody.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

But we weren't. And he was like, no, man. I just stood in the corner, and I feel like that's what a stoic does, is just sits in the corner and goes. But I don't know what there's. Are they.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'm not sure there's any mysterious guys at parties in high school. Those are called creeps.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah. By the way, thank you, Kyle, for letting me share that. But, like, I don't know if stoicism is something. If it's a thing you put on or how you authentically get there. I would love to authentically get there. I would love to not be at a party and someone say, perfect example. Someone go, it's so funny. I love waterfalls. And then I would love to go, I have a great story about waterfalls. I fell off a waterfall in North Carolina. It was a great story, but I'm gonna shut my fucking mouth, because that's stoic. Does. And then you go, it's so interesting. Tell me about what you like about waterfalls. It's a fucking waterfall.

[Ryan Holiday]

It seems like you think being a stoic means being introverted, and you're extroverted, so you're not stoic.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like, okay, so is it George Washington or Benjamin Franklin?

[Ryan Holiday]

George Washington's the one who's more interested in stoicism.

[Bert Kreischer]

Okay.

[Ryan Holiday]

Franklin. There's some Franklin stuff too, but George Washington's very reserved, and so he doesn't.

[Bert Kreischer]

Let his anger get the best of him.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes, dude.

[Bert Kreischer]

If. If I get upset or if I get my feelings hurt, it's uncontrollable.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, it's insane. Like, I'm trying to think of a good example recently where my feelings got hurt, but it's like, it overwhelms me. And then you're like, well, shit, how do I get past that? Are there, like, things I can do every morning where I wake up and I go, here's the stoic workout, you know, and it's like, you know, journal about this, journal about that. Cause I'll do it. I want to get past. I'll give you a perfect example. This is gonna sound ridiculous today, but it sounds real the moment it happens. Tom and I did Christmas Day for Netflix and for ye NFL. And I fly home, I share Christmas dinner with my family. I wake up the next day and I'm really happy. It went well. Netflix is happy. It was a really great experience. And I had Christmas with my parents. And I'm sitting on my recliner and I'm just going through the news. I'm not thinking. And I see my name and I go, oh, cool, I don't see what it is. And then it says, bert Kreischer ruins Christmas Day. Okay, Now I know George Washington would go, that has nothing to do with me. That has to do with this writer didn't have anything good to write about, about the game. The game wasn't that good and there wasn't much going on in the game and he needed to get clicks. So he used a famous guy who will get clicks and then used a good catchphrase and then cherry picked comments. Cherry picked comments he did from the post that were very targeted towards Burt. These are guys. The one guy called me Bart. You're like, okay, that's a fan. Or a guy that was a fan burnt called me. And like, either the guy's. Either the writer's really smart or he's actually a fucking idiot who was like, look at that. They don't even know how to say his name, you know?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, you take it personally, Ryan.

[Bert Kreischer]

I don't know if you know how this feels. It happens at the top of my head and everything gets warm and I go like, whoa. And it's a massive, like. I wouldn't say like an instant depression, but an instant anxiety of like, I'm going to be thinking about this for half the day. At least. This ruined half the day. And my daughter, who I think Georgia, who. My old oldest, who probably would have a lot in common with you, she reads books with her friends where her friend will read one side of the page and she reads the other side of the page and they sit next to each other. That's what a reader she is. Okay. Creepiest thing. I'd rather walk in on her fucking with three girls. But. So she goes, hey. And she breaks it down. She goes, the guy needed clicks for his article and you clicked it. Now, granted, it's your name, but other people are gonna go, oh, Burke. Oh, we ruined Christmas because he took his shirt off.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'll also. He could be right in the sense that you may have ruined his Christmas. Like, he's not wrong. Like, I try to go, like, maybe it did suck to that person.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah. And by the way, I think it probably sucked to a lot of families who at nine in the morning, saw a shirtless fat guy, you know, drinking whiskey on a parking lot. But look, that was what I was hired to do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Bert Kreischer]

So I should detach from both of those.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Bert Kreischer]

But instead I'm like. So I hear Georgia the stoic.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Break it down. And then. And then my youngest daughter, Isla, goes, google his name. I went, what? She goes, google his name. Find out his Instagram. See who he's friends with.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that. And then she's like, yeah, you know what? I guarantee you he knows you and he has friends. That. And then I'm like, yeah. And then I go, that's not what a stoic like George Washington to me wouldn't be. Like, how do I get Louis the fucking 13th number? You know.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's funny in the show, your two kids have kind of an angel devil relationship. Like, one's whispering, let's rein it in, and the other is egging you on.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Which is. Which is very funny. So, okay, I think a couple things here. So number one, we'd like to think that people just naturally are this or that. Right. And if that was the case, if George Washington just never got upset or Marcus Realis never got upset. They just. People said about him and they just didn't care. That's. Then that's kind of like being tall, right? Like, it. You don't get any credit for it. If you just. If it's not work, you don't get any credit for it. Right.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like, give me a second with that thought because you've said some things. You've said some quotes that are, like, badass. So, yeah, if. If it really doesn't affect you, you don't take credit for it. Like, if someone yells to me, get out of that car, you black bastard. And I'm like, that's not accurate.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. It's not going to bother you because it's so wildly inaccurate. That has nothing to do with you. So that is really. Actually, George Washington's a good example. It's funny that you brought him up. I was interviewing Ron Chernow, who wrote a famous biography of Washington, but he also wrote Hamilton. But he was saying that what's interesting about Washington is that Washington actually, for the people that knew him, had fiery temper. He was actually like, there's a famous story about Washington. One. One guy, I think it's Gouverneur Morris bets another guy. He goes, I'm gonna walk up to George Washington, slap him on the back, and say, hey, George, how's it going? And so he does this, and Washington gives him, like, such a death stare that the guy's like. He was like, I will never call him anything other than His Excellency ever again. He's, like, right beneath the surface, a little bit fragile, a little bit sensitive, Got a little bit of an ego. And so it's not that it's an act. It's that he's really having to work for it. Like, he. He is sensitive. He does get upset. He does lose his temper. He does worry about things. But he. He understands, as I think you're saying in your examples, that that. That doesn't really work. Like, that's not good. That that's what gets you into trouble. Like, you can't be the President of the United States and just fly off the handle. Like, we're seeing the effects of what happened. When that happens now, it gets you into trouble. Right? It. And it's.

[Bert Kreischer]

Are you saying Donald Trump is not a stoic? What can I say? She's a pig. Oh, my God. So, like, we'll go get. Oh, that's a great. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

So the. He realizes that to do this job, he has to work actively to not be that way. So I think. I think everyone is struggling with it. And honestly, like, most things, it might look easy, but, like, beneath the surface, the person's really working at it. And so I just. We should understand that stoicism as a philosophy is a thing you are aspiring to be and you're working on and you're getting better. Like, I don't. I don't think I'm perfect at any of this stuff compared to who I was when I was 20. I'm way further down the road, but I'm not anywhere near where I would like to be. And I. I read an article yesterday. I Got a Google alert. I don't know how I saw it. And I was like, oh. It seemed like from the headline, it seemed positive. And I was like, sweet, I could use a little pick me up right now.

[Bert Kreischer]

That's the worst.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And I read it and it just is getting worse and worse and worse. And I was like. So it was like, first off, I have to do what you're talking about, which is like, you know, try to think about where this person's coming from and why it doesn't matter. And then I have to go, okay, but, like, there's a reason these Google alerts go to the email address I don't check and why I tell myself not to click the thing. Like, it's more about, like, the process and the boundaries you put up to protect yourself from your worst impulses.

[Bert Kreischer]

I think I like that. Yeah. Like, I, I, I deleted Google News off my phone because it was just something I scrolled and then I saw. I don't enjoy seeing negative articles about my friends.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

Why would you? But some comics love it.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's true.

[Bert Kreischer]

They love it. I have a friend who is so obsessed with the negative videos that other people put out about us that I wonder if he's my friend.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

Because he likes them so much. And then he told me he contacted one of the guys who made one about me.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I was just like, wow, I would never do that to you. I would never, like, crazy, like, I don't. I'm not that guy. I'm not.

[Ryan Holiday]

My social media accounts are on my wife's phone. So, like, I have to be like, hey, can I borrow your phone? Cause otherwise I'll just check them a lot. And I, it's like I'm never, When I do, I'm like, so glad. I'm never glad that I spent 20 minutes on Instagram. Every once in a while, I'll need to message someone or, you know, there'll be a thing that I wanted to look at or whatever. And then sometimes, you know, you can't sleep. It's fun to scroll or whatever, but I'm like, if it's on my phone, I'll do it way more than is healthy. But if there's like, just one step removed, then it's a. I'm a little, I'm a little protected from myself.

[Bert Kreischer]

I caught myself today. I was on Instagram and I was scrolling and then, and then it got me to Threads or whatever. And it was something about, something about, I don't know. So it was something that Was innocuous. And as I'm scrolling threads, I see my picture come up. And immediately. And what I do, what I'll do sometimes is I'll scroll without glasses on readers so that I can't read it, But I see my picture, and I immediately go to this defense mechanism, like, get out of here. Get out of here. And it was a positive review. And then I was like, it's so tricky. I want to read it. But then part of me goes, but if I read that and give it weight, I have to give as much weight to the negative one.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, it's funny. I think Hemingway was talking to Fitzgerald.

[Bert Kreischer]

Hold on. Stop right there. I have a great question, though. For real? Yes, for real. Do you think Ernest Hemingway would have been a better writer if he had gotten more sleep?

[Ryan Holiday]

Probably.

[Bert Kreischer]

But doesn't that get to the ID of the. And I'm using the word ID not knowing what it means, but doesn't that get to the ID of the artist?

[Ryan Holiday]

Maybe a little bit. There's a book in the bookstore. I'm gonna give it to you. So F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote this book called the Crack Up Fitzgerald. He wrote a book called the Crackup about blowing up his life. It's the last thing he wrote. And you're watching one of the most talented people in the world squander their talent drinking.

[Bert Kreischer]

I've watched people squander their talent.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And I've watched myself squander my talent.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like, it's funny when, as you're squandering things, you don't realize. You don't realize what you look like from the outside. I remember a point, everyone was calling me going, we're worried about you. And I was like. And I was just working so hard. It's one of the things you talk about in the book that I've been listening to over and over again is that to pull back a little bit is the stoic way to not overwork restraint is the stoic way. And Tom and I haven't talked about this, and we don't talk about this publicly at all, but we've pulled back two bears.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, yeah. Don't do it as much.

[Bert Kreischer]

We do it when we want to.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Because what we were doing is. And by the way, we're not doing that for the fans. And we're also doing that. We're taking less money. We're saying to our ad sales team, don't sell on against us. Because we were doing it. Partly we were doing it for the fans, but we were really doing It. Cause we were on a schedule, and that wasn't the way the show ever started, and that wasn't conducive to us having a good time. And then when we said, when we're available, let's do it, we did two episodes, and they were. We started giggling with each other again.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

And when I heard you say that about that rear admiral or the one guy that was the fighter pilot in World War II, and then he was like a bioengineer or something, or a doctor. And then, you know. And then he was the reason we wore one World War II or whatever. And he was like, oh, he was just burning it at both ends. When you burn it at both ends, you're not serving anybody.

[Ryan Holiday]

It weirdly takes almost more discipline to walk away. Like, I used to listen to Marc Maron's podcast, which I loved. I know you had, like, a little tiff with him or whatever.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Ryan Holiday]

But I think to walk away from something that, like, not. Cause you're, like, an athlete and you can't do it anymore. You got cut or whatever. Like, nobody does that. Like, nobody just goes, like, I'm good. Like, everyone talks about fuck you, money. There's the line. And then nobody ever says fuck you, because you always want more. And it feels irresponsible not to keep going. But to be like, I'm gonna do less is actually a pretty. It's both a kind of a baller thing, if you think about it, but also, it takes more discipline than staying on the grueling schedule.

[Bert Kreischer]

Well, the fear for me, I mean, I can only speak about me. And just for anyone listening who's like, what happened to Mark and Burt? I'd just be very quick. So that everyone's clear, Mark was talking shit about these arena comics who get drunk and don't do anything on stage, and they suck, and it's just a money grab. And by the way, I had Mark on the podcast. He wasn't talking about me, but it sounded a lot like he was.

[Ryan Holiday]

This is why it's bad to listen to what people are saying. Cause you interpret it, you know?

[Bert Kreischer]

And then I was like, I don't get drunk on stage. Like, I know everyone thinks I'm hammered the whole time. I am a very responsible comic. I have been drunk on stage. Yes. But if I'm doing an arena, I'm stone sober. I'll have a drink when I tell the machine. But what's crazy is the title was Bark Baron Talks about Bert Kreischer. He never said My name. So that was the beef. And then it turns out he was talking about another comic. He called me. It was, but. But that's neither here nor there.

[Ryan Holiday]

Walking away, walking away.

[Bert Kreischer]

It's not about the money. It is about money. There is. There's a money aspect to it, but for the most part, it's like, am I letting down the fans? Am I? And I know that by putting out a lesser product. And I have been doing that at times. Definitely on Two Bears. Definitely on Birdcast. I wouldn't say so much on Something's Burning for. For whatever reason, and definitely not in Stand Up. For whatever reason. I've always been very adamant. If I say something very funny in my podcast, I pull it out. So I use it in Stand Up. Standup's always been. It's a standalone thing for me. It's my real thing. I always go, let me just take a. It's like when you're too tired to take batting practice and you're no longer helping your swing. You're just taking cuts and you're like, I'm not learning. And I had to say to everyone, I'm working too hard. Tom and I had a conversation Christmas Eve about Two Bears and our schedules. I had a conversation with my team about Birdcast. I was like, I can't just do it every week. I mean, I want to do it when I want to do it and when I'm excited to do it, because then it'll be good and then people will like it. But it is a thing about, like, what if I get out of the rotation? What if I hop off the merry go round for one run? Everyone's on the merry go round. They might be drunk, they might be garbage. All the great podcasts, history hyenas, Matt and Shane, Secret podcast, Andrew Schultz, Joe Rogan, you. There's so many great podcasts out there, but if I hop off the merry go for one lap, are people gonna remember to let me back on? What if there's not a horse available when it comes back around? And so that's the risk you take from doing less. And you just gotta trust that they'll be there. I guess.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And having some idea of what enough is. The problem is that you always move that number.

[Bert Kreischer]

Of course.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

I remember getting an offer for my. Enough. Getting like an. Here's an offer. We were in our old house. Our old house was like 1700 square feet. I'm saying how big it was. It wasn't a huge house for two kids. Me and my wife and that was after a renovation, and by the way, we thought it was the fucking best house in the world. Still is. But I still have that house. And I remember getting my enough offer, and I put it on the table for the girls. We're good. And then I blew through that money. I blew through that money. And I was like, it's not enough. And then you're like, okay, it's not enough. It's only half. You don't see that it's half. And then you don't see that a lot of that's got. You're already in debt. And then you're like, oh, shit. So, yeah, it's tough. You always move that goalpost.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And walking away from money is scary. And then also walking away from attention is scary, and being wanted is scary. It all keeps you.

[Bert Kreischer]

Especially if you're me. Like, I'm a FOMO guy. I was the kid that if a slumber party. If I woke up last at a slumber party, I would be angry, I would be hurt. I would be hurt that they didn't wake me up. Like, the. Oh, let him sleep. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wake me up when you start cooking. Like, I want to be there for. For all of it. I want to see. That's my fear of death is just fomo.

[Ryan Holiday]

What's going to happen after.

[Bert Kreischer]

No, no. That I'm not going to be there.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, that's what I mean. All this stuff, you're going to miss out, Dave.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like I said to Tom one time, we were a little drunk, and it was early in the morning, and we were doing a signing, and neither of us wanted to be there. It was like a big poroso signing. We've been traveling like crazy, and they made us a cocktail, and I'm talking loosely, and he was talking about Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin, and he's like, these are the type of lunatics that'll just. Just end the world. And I was like, I'd do that. Like, if I could. Like, if I could. If I could just be like, I have cancer. I'm dying, but I can end the world. I'd end the world and be like, that's it. No one lives. That's it. He goes, what about your kids? I go, yeah, yeah, I want them to go with me. Isn't that love? And he was like, by the way, the look on Tom's face was like.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, you sound like a lunatic.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah, of course. But I think I am a little bit of a lunatic.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Bert Kreischer]

I think you gotta be a little bit of a lunatic as an artist.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Well, that goes to the point. Like, if you weren't a lunatic and you were easily satisfied, you'd have been satisfied and stopped. So there's kind of this like a normal person wins a Super bowl, and then it's like, fuck it, I'm gonna go out on top. But like, you can't stop.

[Bert Kreischer]

Do you sit? Because I think you. Like, I was driving out here. I go, this makes sense. Like, everything starts tracking.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like, I had a hard time understanding who you were. Cause I couldn't wrap my head around all of it. Right. So I was like, marcus Aurelius. Why are we still talking about him? Right? I was like, and he has a bookstore in Austin. It's not in Austin.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, no. We're outside of town.

[Bert Kreischer]

Okay. This makes so much more sense as we're driving here. I went, okay, now I'm starting to get this person. But a guy with a bookstore in Austin's very different. There's a pretentiousness to that. There is like a. I'm the Austin guy. I'm the Austin smart guy. Cause Austin. Austin right now is this weird, eclectic place where all the gurus are headed to kind of get your chakra. And, you know, it's like, the best drum circle guy lives here now, you know? And he's like, what? Well, you know, that's what I mean. That's like, Austin.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay. Do you know the best drum circle guy? Is this a real thing or no, no.

[Bert Kreischer]

I did meet a wild drum circle guy in New York the other day. Okay. Yeah. And that's why I said that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay, okay.

[Bert Kreischer]

We did a commercial together.

[Ryan Holiday]

Got.

[Bert Kreischer]

So. But, like. And then when I drove out here, I went, oh, this is different. This is the thing I used to fantasize about when I was on Travel Channel and my life was a little out of control and my. My dreams were attached to my future.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

I would fantasize about, like, what if I just had, like, a. What if I lived in a regular town with regular people and I had a regular job where my dreams weren't technically attached to it. It was just what I love to do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

Like, what if I love building houses or building cabinets? Sure. And I loved the satisfaction of getting done. And, like, that looks great. And I didn't go to bed going, like, thinking about my cabinets. And today when I drove out here and I saw this bookstore, I went, oh, I actually understand you a little better. And I bet you actually sit in your Bookstore at night sometimes and look around and go, I think I'm living the dream. Like, this is everything I like, yeah, totally.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think it's really good not to be around people who do what you do, because then you can't compare yourself to them. Like, there's no jealousy because I'm not seeing anybody else's house or anybody else's car. I'm not, like, I'm not bumping into, like, my quote unquote peers going, like, how did they get that?

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

You know, I'm just kind of doing my own thing.

[Bert Kreischer]

That's the death of when. That's the crazy thing in comedy is that I think people do compare themselves to the other people and, you know, everyone's your friend until you get successful.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And then the second you get successful, it's like, you. You lose. You lose. Like, I'm gonna be aggressive on this. I'd say you lose in genuineness. Probably 60% of your friends are just like. Especially like, some successful ones are like.

[Ryan Holiday]

Dude, fuck that guy, because you made it, or whatever.

[Bert Kreischer]

Well, they didn't expect you to make. They were cool with you being a loser.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Bert Kreischer]

They're good. Giving you. A lot of people are good at giving advice, but the second you no longer need their advice, it was weird. That was the Marin thing. I mean, that was like, why I was like, he liked me when I was a loser. And the second I started doing arenas, he didn't like me. And obviously Marin never said that about me. That's what he said.

[Ryan Holiday]

But it's easy for you to assume that because that that's actually happened.

[Bert Kreischer]

Yeah. Oh, it's happened to so many people. There are very few people that are happy for your success. Right. It's like.

[Ryan Holiday]

Cause people think it's zero sum, that your success comes at the expense of.

[Bert Kreischer]

Their success, that you took their toy and started playing with their toy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Bert Kreischer]

And then, you know, especially, like, I was at the very beginning, I think, of the comedy boom, you know, and the comedy boom's still happening. It's just not at the pace that it happened. When I started it with, it was like, Tom is at the forefront of it. Joe's at the forefront, Bill Burr's at the forefront. There's like, Chappelle. They're at the forefront. I was on that second tier where I was just like. I was, like, riding their wake. And you'd go in and you were breaking ticket sales in every venue. But it wasn't necessarily your. I mean, I'm saying I'm talented but it wasn't that it was so much that people were hot for comedy and the pandemic had just ended and ticket sales were wild and they were like, I want to get out of the house. And I had been on tour all through the pandemic, like doing my outdoor open air drive in movie theater tour. And people are like, oh, his materials. He's been working through the pandemic. This is going to be good, right? And then you, you're record. And then your. Your earnings come out and all of a sudden, dude, like the next day, fuck that guy. And you're like, whoa. And you're. And then you got, and you got like. I got. I remember I had like, you know, very like, like Rogan was on my team. Like Rogan was excited for me. Anyone below me? Not I say below me, but just wasn't making. That was all excited for me. Sebastian was always been cool, Tommy, obviously. But the list gets pretty shallow pretty quick.

[Ryan Holiday]

I just found that that's not good for you either the person who's being jealous or going like, why did they get that? And that's not good for you. And I found the more I'm out of the scene. Like a friend of mine gave me really good advice. He said, work family scene, pick two.

[Bert Kreischer]

Oh, it's work family.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, of course. But so if you pick those then you don't know what's happening in the scene. And then actually you do better work. And you're not like, you're not like, well, why am I not getting invited to this? They seem like they're having. I'm just disconnected from the scene. And I think I found that's healthier for me. Not like. Cause I'd be out partying, but I'm just not like, I don't know what other people are making or driving. I don't know what deals other people are getting or sales. Like, it's just, just. It's just better to just be doing your own thing and running your own.

[Bert Kreischer]

Race a hundred percent. I always have. I have weird analogies. I always look for like. Of the two you're talking about. I call people channel markers. Like, I grew up in Florida and so there was a lot of like, when you're in the middle of the fucking. When you're heading out to sea, you're looking for the channel markers are heading the right direction. And I always looked for channel markers in life. Like Rogan's always been a channel marker. Whatever he's doing that is the right way. You're Going. You should go that direction. You know, Burr has always been a channel marker for me because he's always been on the more of the creative side. Not saying Joe's not creative, but he's very. Podcasting. Joe's very much. Bill's always been like, movies, TVs scripted, you know, always kind of like. And the way Burr approaches the standup is brilliant.

[Ryan Holiday]

There's a craft element to it.

[Bert Kreischer]

I just bought a book called Seven Basic Story Plots or whatever. Bought a book. Let me rephrase that. I got the audiobook for $29. And the other one is. I heard someone say one time something about, like, if. If you're following the path in the woods, then you know that people have already gone that way.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Bert Kreischer]

And so I've always thought, well, the second you can't see the path anymore, the second it gets a little scary and you're. And you get lost, that's the best path to take in the woods, because you're going in your own direction.

[Ryan Holiday]

Actually, it's funny. There's a passage in Seneca where he's talking about. He's like, you gotta. This is in a mix of metaphors a little bit, but I wonder what you think about it. So he says, like, happiness is having a sense of the path that you're on. And he says, not being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours. And he says, especially not following the footsteps of people who are lost.

[Bert Kreischer]

All right, okay. I like that.

[Ryan Holiday]

You like that.

[Bert Kreischer]

I like that. Seneca. I always thought he was just a different type of Toyota, but he's fucking great. Who's Seneca?

[Ryan Holiday]

Seneca is so Marx. Aurelius is emperor. Epictetus is a slave. Seneca's right there in the middle. He's like a Roman senator. He's a playwright. He's a famous guy, and then he ends up. He has, like, the world's worst job. He is Nero's philosophy teacher. I don't know if you know anything about Nero, but Nero's interesting.

[Bert Kreischer]

Do I know anything about Nero? Are you kidding me? So Nero never. Never danced while. While Rome burned to the ground. He didn't play the fiddle.

[Ryan Holiday]

Play the fiddle.

[Bert Kreischer]

He didn't play the fiddle, but he.

[Ryan Holiday]

Didn'T do anything when it burned. He was the worst.

[Bert Kreischer]

No, no, no, no. So hang on. I get really hung up on Nero.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay?

[Bert Kreischer]

So here's what happened. Okay?

[Ryan Holiday]

I did not think this was gonna go in this direction.

[Bert Kreischer]

So Nero was a pretty good fucking emperor. Hang on. Okay, let me just.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay, give me. Give me your take.

[Bert Kreischer]

Okay? So he's a pretty good emperor and he lasted for a while.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Bert Kreischer]

And the guy that came up next, he didn't really do anything, and he kind of disappeared. He was like the Jimmy Carter of emperors. Right? The next guy was the Gerald Ford of emperors. And then the third guy, Ronald Reagan, was like, dude, we gotta let them forget about fucking Nero so I can carve my own past. So he goes, yo, let's retrofit the. Nero fiddled while Rome burned so that we can remember him as a piece of shit. And that's what they were trying to do to George Bush. No, I'm kidding. But that's what they did to Nero so that this guy can. Because I listen to a lot of stuff, but I barely take in.

[Ryan Holiday]

It seemed like you took a lot in.

[Bert Kreischer]

And so that's what I heard about Nero.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay, so basically, Seneca is in exile. The Emperor Claudius is deranged, and he thinks that Seneca is having an affair with his sister. And so he banishes Seneca. Seneca gets sent into exile to the island of Corsica, which is off the coast of Italy. It's where Napoleon. So he's stuck in this rock in the middle of the ocean. He hates it. And he finally. He gets a letter. You can come back to Rome. It's from this woman, if you tutor my son. And that her son is Nero. So he gets called back in exchange for tutoring this young kid who's almost certainly going to become the emperor one day. And Nero's smart, Nero's promising. He seems like a good kid. Seneca teaches him everything he knows. And then Nero does become emperor. Emperor. And for the first five years, he listens to Seneca, and he has another military advisor named Burrus who he listens to. And so the first five years of Nero are great. They're actually known as the Quinquinium Neronis, or the five golden years of Nero. But what happens is, you know, they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem is Nero desperately wanted to be liked, and he desperately wanted to be liked as both an athlete and an artist that like. So, you know, it's funny.

[Bert Kreischer]

It sounds like Vladimir Putin.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes, it's funny. People get the thing. You think that would be enough, but everyone has their secret fantasy of what they want to be. So Nero likes.

[Bert Kreischer]

But you're talking to the guy that's on Testosterone and bench. £325. Yeah, keep going.

[Ryan Holiday]

He fixes the Olympics so he can win as a chariot racer. He forces people to listen to his poetry. He's delusional. He's not that good, but that's what he really wants to be known for. So he kind of starts to spin off the planet, and then he gets really paranoid that people are plotting against him, right? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. At one point, Seneca tells him. He goes, you know, it's impossible for you to kill literally all of your successors. The point being, eventually you'll die and someone will take your place. Like, you can't kill everyone.

[Bert Kreischer]

I need a Seneca in my life.

[Ryan Holiday]

And at one point, he kills. He assassinates his own mother. He turns against his mother. He sends her out on this cruise, on this boat ride, and he has her killed.

[Bert Kreischer]

So know about that.

[Ryan Holiday]

So he loses his mind. He really is shitty, and he loses his mind. And eventually Seneca, who becomes very rich working for Nero, finally goes, dude, I've had enough. I gotta get out of here. And Nero goes, bro, that's. That's not how this works. And so he sends Seneca into exile. Eventually, he kills Seneca kills everyone. There's a. There's a joke. He's. He has one of his generals killed. And the general's standing on the edge of his grave right before they kill him. And he looks down and he goes, even this isn't up to code. Like, he's like, nero sucks even at this. So he sucks. He's good at first. Spins off the planet sucks. And then this is where the story gets crazy. When the walls close in on him, Nero realizes he has to kill himself, but he's too much of a coward to do it, so he calls one of his advisors to do it. He botches it, he sticks the knife in, and he kind of screws it up. Nero does. He calls one of his advisors, and his advisor has to finish the job. And that advisor is the owner of Epictetus. So Epictetus is watching all of this happen. He's watching not just Nero spin off the planet, but he is watching Seneca, like, degrade himself by being associate. Like, Seneca writes all this great stuff about what it means to be a stoic, what it means to be a good person, and then has a day job working for a monster. It's fucking fascinating. Like, twisted World. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.