BONUS | Charles Duhigg's Reading List (From Ryan Holiday)

Summary

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The Daily Stoic - BONUS: Charles Duhigg’s Reading List (From Ryan Holiday)

Date: March 22, 2026
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guest: Charles Duhigg
Theme: Sharing favorite books, insights into writing, and building a culture around literature

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Daily Stoic is a special bonus featuring a conversation between Ryan Holiday and acclaimed author Charles Duhigg. Together, they discuss book recommendations, particularly around Los Angeles and Stoicism, explore the process and challenges of writing, and reflect on curation and building a meaningful literary environment. The discussion blends practical insights on productivity, fascinating literary anecdotes, and thoughtful dives into the craft of storytelling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Literary Obsessions: LA, Ghost Towns, and Chinatown

• Book Recommendations about LA & Ghost Towns
  • Ryan and Charles share their fascination with LA history, referencing books about ghost towns and the backdrop to the film Chinatown.
  • Charles: “He recorded the audiobook for this at 900 feet below ground, like, for the thing.” (04:49)
• Movies as Urban History Lessons
  • Discussion about movies (Chinatown, Who Framed Roger Rabbit) that are based on true civic transformations, e.g. water wars and the advent of freeways.
  • Charles: “It’s also insane that you would, like, make a hit movie about, like, stealing water.” (03:45)

2. Hidden Literary Gems & Publishing Anecdotes

• The Saga of ‘Ask the Dust’ by John Fante
  • Story of a lost LA novel, Ask the Dust, nearly buried by its publisher’s bankruptcy after they released an unauthorized edition of Mein Kampf.
  • Rediscovered by Charles Bukowski and later optioned for film, this book became a cult classic.
  • Ryan: “So the book is lost to history until Bukowski discovers it in the Los Angeles Public Library.” (05:18)

3. Building Spaces for Books & Culture

• Transforming Old Buildings into Bookstore Havens
  • The bookstore’s setting: converted historic buildings, a bar from the 1800s, and a statement fireplace constructed with 2,000 books and thousands of screws.
  • The importance of memorable, Instagrammable spaces that drive community engagement.
  • Ryan: “It’s what, it’s 2,000 books, 4,000 screws, six gallons of glue, and it weighs–” (08:05)

4. Physical Book Curation & Local Flavor

• Texas Literature & Regional Interests
  • Notable sales of Texas history and biography, highlighting the state’s rich literary culture.
  • Charles: “Yeah, I mean, I've read a lot about Texas. I think Texas is fascinating. And those are some of the greatest biographies ever written.” (05:52)

5. Deep Reading & Notetaking: Productivity for Writers

• Daily Practice and The Discipline of Reading
  • The importance of reading widely as a prerequisite for writing. Ryan shares his process of constant research before starting a book.
  • Charles: “How do you structure your time? ... Most of the people in my books are dead.” (11:02)
• Notecards and Information Organization
  • Both authors use 4x6 notecards to structure research, laying them out physically to connect themes and organize narratives.
  • Ryan: “I use like 4x6 note cards ... I have a table upstairs and they’re all laid out...” (11:32)

6. Unlocking Book Ideas: From Theme to Story

• Theme, Characters, and Narrative Structure
  • Charles and Ryan dissect their approaches to conceptualizing books. While Charles centers around “the anchor story,” Ryan starts with theme and works toward characters that embody the message.
  • Charles: “I have to find the story... until I know what the anchor story is, the narrative, then I can’t actually figure out how to structure the chapter.” (13:22)
  • Ryan: “For me, it’s first, what’s the thing? Then, like, who are the... guys?” (14:16)
• Making Stoicism Accessible
  • Discussion on the challenge of making abstract virtues like temperance and wisdom compelling for modern audiences, leading to reframed titles and stories.

7. The Process, and The Struggle of Writing

• Navigating the Writing Journey
  • The “fun” and “frustrating” parts of being in the middle of a project, finding traction, and knowing when it’s time to begin writing versus researching.
  • Ryan: “Solving the puzzle part is fun and then finishing is fun. It's the middle part.” (14:23)
  • Charles: “It’s literally like the middle part of the middle where you’re just like—am I getting closer?” (14:29)
• Writing Tricks
  • Charles shares his method of writing a long explanatory letter to his editor, as a way to organize thoughts before drafting a chapter.
  • Charles: “Then I’ll just sit down and I’ll write my editor a letter explaining how this chapter is going to work. And the letter is, like, four or five thousand words long.” (15:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the quirks of book retail:
  “There’s a handful of books like that where, like, we’re like one of the only places that’s selling them... so the publisher’s always running out.” — Ryan Holiday (10:44)
• On people’s appetite for moderation:
  “No one wants to read a book about a thing that they’re not inclined to do, you know. So I made that book about self-discipline, which is a rendering of temperance, self-control.” — Ryan Holiday (12:51)
• On Instagram-era bookshops:
  “People just come in, the first thing they want to do is take a picture in front of it … in the world of social media, you want something you share about the thing that you did.” — Ryan Holiday (08:07)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:09] — On LA’s literary and cinematic history, “ghost town” books and Chinatown
• [04:16] — Ask the Dust and lost LA novels
• [07:37] — The architectural story behind the bookshop, the book-built fireplace
• [09:20] — Current reading lists, Cal Newport’s new book, and productivity literature
• [11:30] — Notecard method for research and writing
• [13:22] — Finding anchor stories vs. character-driven themes in nonfiction
• [14:46] — Where both authors are in their current writing projects
• [15:22] — Charles’s letter-to-editor trick for shaping chapters

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, behind-the-scenes look into the reading habits and creative processes of two bestselling authors. Brimming with book recommendations, unique anecdotes about literary history, and actionable advice for readers and writers, it’s an inspiring listen for anyone who loves books, process, or the meaning behind great writing.

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Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

I know it's not good for me to just run. I need it for my mental health. But it takes a toll on me physically and I need to mix it up. So one of the things I'm trying to work on this year is doing more diverse kinds of workouts and specifically doing more strength training. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home with their one sleek system. Designed to reduce your mental load, Tonal is the ultimate strength training system, helping you less on workout planning and more on getting results. Plus, there's no more second guessing on your form. Tonal gives you real time coaching cues to dial in your form, which I need a lot of help on. And it helps you lift safely and effectively. Plus, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and then adjusts it, makes it a tiny bit harder each time in one pound increments as you go and as you get stronger. Right. So you're always challenged, which is one of the other things.

[Guest Author]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

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[Guest Author]

Here. I'll give you this one, by the way. This is the ghost town one.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Guest Author]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, thank you.

[Guest Author]

Let's see if I can find this Chinatown book.

[Interviewer]

So this guy is actually living.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, he bought. He was my assistant.

[Interviewer]

Really.

[Guest Author]

He basically spent his life Savings on this. It's like 300 acres above this lake. Above the lake from Chinatown that they stole the water.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guest Author]

Really cool. So he's like, restoring all these old buildings and, you know, he goes down in the mines.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Guest Author]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, is that not dangerous to, like,

[Guest Author]

recorded the audiobook for this at 900ft below ground, like, for the thing.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Guest Author]

So he thought it was going to be this, like, whole resort thing, and it became. It's like a YouTube channel. It's just popular as a YouTube channel.

[Interviewer]

That's really interesting.

[Guest Author]

Okay, so this is about Chinatown.

[Interviewer]

Oh, thank you.

[Guest Author]

Yeah. Because there's so many. You got Robert Evans.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

Roman Polanski. You get Jack Nicholson. Like, the directions you get to go off in studying Chinatown is pretty incredible.

[Interviewer]

Well, another thing is, again, because I was just watching it on the plane, it's like there's things that they do that you can't do in movies. Like, you don't understand what's going on for, like, the first 30 minutes.

[Guest Author]

Yeah. It's kind of got a Raymond Chandler thing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's basically, like, sells itself on attitude and, like, atmosphere.

[Guest Author]

It's also insane that you would, like, make a hit movie about, like, stealing water.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

Doesn't make any sense.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, there's a.

[Guest Author]

Like, the other one is like, to think like, who Framed Roger Rabbit is about the. The building of the 110 freeway. That's what that movie is.

[Interviewer]

Is it really?

[Guest Author]

The movie is about them ripping out the streetcar to replace it with a highway.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

You know, I did not remember that. So, like, really great things have, like, sort of sublimated to it, like other.

[Interviewer]

That's really fun.

[Guest Author]

My favorite. Have you read Ask the Dust? No. My favorite LA book of all time novel, Acts of the Dutch Story. So John Fonte was this sort of struggling writer. He lived in Bunker Hill. Like, all the big buildings in LA used to be these sort of Victorian mansions, like San Francisco.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

That they tore down to build all these big buildings. Anyway, so he writes this beautiful novel, and the story is, the year it comes out, his publisher publishes an unauthorized, unredacted edition of Mein Kampf.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Guest Author]

Because Hitler is like 33. So Hitler's this. It'd be like if you published Putin's book or whatever. But. Hmh. Like, Houghton Mifflin owned the copyright to Mein Kampf. They were Hitler's US Publisher. And so they sued and bankrupted John Fenton's publisher. And so the book is lost to history until Bukowski discovers it in the Los Angeles Public Library.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Guest Author]

And Robert Towne discovers it and he's the one. And he makes a movie of it, like, all these years later.

[Interviewer]

Oh, this is awesome.

[Guest Author]

Picked up the same copy of this obscure book that no one read. Yeah, my all time favorite writer. And it's a novel about a writer. It's incredible.

[Interviewer]

Oh, man.

[Guest Author]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

This is going to be awesome. Can I ask you a question about. Because I noticed you guys have all the, like, LBJ stuff.

[Guest Author]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

So do people like. Because you're in Texas, do people want to buy books about Texas? Is that like.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, I mean, I've read a lot about Texas. I think Texas is fascinating. And those are three of the. What is it, four? How many are there? I think those are some of the greatest biographies ever written. I mean, it's just a master at work, but.

[Interviewer]

But I noticed also the sun, like, there's like a.

[Guest Author]

The sun is good. Philip came out. He lives in Austin. He's great. Hu. Yeah. So we have some good. We have like, Texas Y books that are popular, but I kind of. I sort of see, like, Texas, Mississippi, you know, like all that kind of stuff all together.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, this is really fun.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, thanks.

[Interviewer]

So what was this before you guys before?

[Guest Author]

This is like a Mexican restaurant.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Guest Author]

This was built in the 1800s. That was a. These are three buildings. These were built in the 1800s. Huh. They've been a billion different things. That was a barber shop. Most recently. These were vacant for several years. But, like, so there was a. There was a bar here.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Guest Author]

And that's what this is. And this is the kitchen of the restaurant.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Guest Author]

This is the kitchen of the restaurant.

[Interviewer]

So did you guys do the reno yourself? Like you.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, sort of. We. I mean, obviously we did. We didn't do the construction.

[Interviewer]

Oh, this is awesome.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, it was. It was cool. And then actually there was a bar from the 1800s, like a Brunswick bar in that building. I'll send you a link to it. But we moved it to the ghost town. Huh. Cause that's when it dates to. Oh, wow. We put it there, but yeah, we just kind of. That tree fell down on my ranch, so we moved.

[Interviewer]

This is really cool. And then how did you guys build. This is amazing. I was noticing it in your studio. This is amazing.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, these are just a bunch of books. And then some of this one. He cut a lot of them. So it's not the full weight of the book stacking on top of each other.

[Interviewer]

It would be way too much. Yeah.

[Guest Author]

So you cut a good chunk of them, but the fireplace is built so they're just. They're just like.

[Interviewer]

Just, like, arranged around them and then glued in place.

[Guest Author]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's what, it's 2,000 books, 4,000 screws, six gallons of glue, and it weighs.

[Interviewer]

It's so cool.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, we just wanted something that kind of makes a statement. And it's funny. People just come in. The first thing they want to do is take a picture in front of it.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Guest Author]

And so kind of. Yeah, it's like. So if you. I think in the world of social media, you want something that you share about the thing that you did.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense.

[Guest Author]

Cats that run around too, and like, that, they're probably, like, the second most popular. People just want, like, things.

[Interviewer]

That's super interesting.

[Guest Author]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, the thing that I like about it, too, is it's very, like, unlike most Instagram things, where it's like, pink background, like, it looks actually distinct.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's been cool. And the fireplace doesn't work, so it.

[Interviewer]

Which probably is a good thing.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, I mean, it was. It's like sort of. You can't take it out and it doesn't work.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

We were going to do. Have you been to the last bookstore in downtown Los Angeles? No. They have this cool. And you walk up this flight of stairs, and then it becomes like. They clearly just took, like, a metal bar and then drilled a hole in the books and slid it on there. But you walk through, like, a.

[Interviewer]

Like an arch.

[Guest Author]

Yeah. That's cool because it's over the stairs. So we're going to do something like that. And then the fireplace sort of being there.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[Guest Author]

What have you been reading?

[Interviewer]

You know, I want to read Cal Newport's new book. I haven't gotten a copy of it yet. Oh, yeah?

[Guest Author]

Where is it? Slow productivity.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Is it good?

[Guest Author]

Yeah, just yet. It came out two days ago.

[Interviewer]

Oh, did it?

[Guest Author]

Yeah. Okay. He was here before. The week before it came out. So it didn't happen. No, he's great. Yeah. You guys are both on the. At the New York.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's. It's such a smart. Like, it's such a smart way to come at productivity, too.

[Guest Author]

Oh, he's the best. His deep workbook, I think, is incredible. Yeah, there's range, which we're talking about. Yeah, he's great. What do you.

[Interviewer]

What. So what's. What sells it? Surprising.

[Guest Author]

Like, what's the thing what sells.

[Interviewer]

That's that, like, what. What are you Surprised by.

[Guest Author]

Oh, that's a good question. I like to find, like, oh, this is probably this. Tolstoy wrote a page a day book. Really? Yeah, it was like the last thing that he wrote. It's just a collection of his favorite quotes and like sort of meditations on them. And then was suppressed by the Soviets after his death, mostly because it's very religious.

[Interviewer]

Oh, interesting.

[Guest Author]

And so it was totally forgotten until like the 80s or 90s.

[Interviewer]

And do people buy this?

[Guest Author]

And it's probably like, I loved it, so I started talking about it because obviously I read it when I was doing the Daily Stoic, just like other books in that space. And then. Yeah, it's probably. There's a handful of books like that where like, we're like one of the only places that's selling them. Right. And so like the publisher's always running out, like. So.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so let me ask you. Cause I am very curious. Cause your books, like, your books are based on so much research. And obviously you do interviews, but not like the same way when you're doing.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, I don't. Most of the people in my books are dead.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So how do you structure. Like, how do you structure your time? Cause I use the interview to basically

[Guest Author]

help me to get your material.

[Interviewer]

To get my material, but also to help me know when I'm ready to start writing. Cause I start hearing the same thing from different people.

[Guest Author]

I just. So I just. I'm usually I have like a theme or a topic and then I'm reading about it and researching about it for a long time.

[Interviewer]

And are you like keeping note cards or like, what do you do physical.

[Guest Author]

I use like 4x6 note cards.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's what I used to.

[Guest Author]

I have a table upstairs and they're all laid out like, I've just started. I'm doing a series now on the cardinal virtues. Like a Courage, discipline.

[Interviewer]

Oh, interesting.

[Guest Author]

Justice comes out next. And then I just started wisdom. So that's why I have the chapter on questions. Right. Question. So I wrote something down that you said about like we were talking about, like questions that get an answer that's not prepared that you think for. I was like, oh, that's great. So I'll write that down in a note card. That'll go in the tab of question things. And as I put together that chapter, it'll go in there probably.

[Interviewer]

But like wisdom is so amorphous. Like, how do you.

[Guest Author]

Well that. So like I once write a book about humility. That was what ego was. But then I found out ego is the way in, like, what is the thing that makes it not amorphous? So the actual virtue for the Stoics is. Is temperance, which they illustrated with a person watering down their wine. Well, that's a super boring idea. You can't write a book about temperance. No one would read that. Like, even moderation, no one would read a book about.

[Interviewer]

Right, right.

[Guest Author]

Because most of what people want is the extreme. They want to be extremely successful, extremely rich, extremely powerful. Like, you know, it's like you could selling a book on posit body positivity is going to be really tough. Right. Because like, people actually want to be jacked, even though they need to be by.

[Interviewer]

They want to be skinny and they want to be jacked, and they want to believe that if I give you the answer, like, you can do it without.

[Guest Author]

You got to figure out what is the thing that's. No one wants to read a book about a thing that they're not inclined to do, you know, So I made that book about self discipline, which is a rendering of temperance, self control. So for me, it's all about. Yeah, what is. And I am still figuring it out. Cause I haven't written the book. But what is the thing that makes that accessible and interesting and then also compelling to share?

[Interviewer]

That's super interesting. Cause I think for me, I do the same thing, but it's. I have to find the story. Like, until I know what the anchor story is, the narrative, then I can't actually figure out how to structure the chapter.

[Guest Author]

So for me, it's. What's the theme? Like in this case, I decided to do a book on the cardinal virtue or series on the cardinal virtue. So I don't pick the virtues. What's. What's do I think is most compelling about it? And then it's not what's the story? I have to go like, who are the characters and what are the main story? So, like the discipline book that I. Lou Gehrig's the physical manifestation of discipline, Queen Elizabeth is the like sort of temperament or emotional. Then the last one, I talk about Marcus Aurelius, who has unlimited power. And you know, it's sort of fusing the physical and the temperamental discipline together.

[Interviewer]

So, yeah, I.

[Guest Author]

For me, it's first, what's the thing? Then, like, who are the. Who are the guys?

[Interviewer]

Right. That's super interesting.

[Guest Author]

Yeah, it's the best. Yeah. Solving the puzzle part is fun and then finishing is fun. It's the middle part.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And it's literally like the middle part of the middle where you're just like. You feel like you're, like, turning the crank every single day, and you're like, am I getting closer?

[Guest Author]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, if you work on it enough, and then you're like, oh, wait, when I put it all together, it's decent.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

Like, yeah.

[Interviewer]

So which stage are you at right now? Are you at the.

[Guest Author]

So the justice one? Like, I'm just. I'll get galleys, like, next.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Guest Author]

So that's, like, done, done. Which is hard. It's hard to be done. Done on one thing and then, like, deep in the shit on thing. Like, I'm. I'm like, the intro's half written. The first chapter is half. I'm doing. I'm like, all the easy parts.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Guest Author]

And then I have, like. I'll just have to go. I'm mostly just, like, just trying to find a little traction here. A little traction here.

[Interviewer]

I totally. I have this basically a trick. So what I'll do is I'll. Once I do all my reporting and I put everything on note cards.

[Guest Author]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Then I'll just sit down and I'll write my editor a letter explaining what this. How this chapter is going to work. And the letter is, like four or five thousand words long.

[Guest Author]

I read a lot. It's sort of my job. You can't write without reading. For almost 15 years now, once a month, I send out an email with my favorite book recommendations for that month. Books that I've been reading, books that I've been going through, Books that changed my life, that inspired me, that I think. Connect to what's happening in the world. And you can sign up right [e-mail] reading list.

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