B (4:06)

Yes.

A (4:07)

Why do you think that is?

B (4:08)

It comes. I always feel like it's like opportunity cost because as we're all very busy, I'm thinking through my every day. There's so many hours in the day. So I think, okay, today I have 12 hours optimistically, that I can do whatever I want. And a lot of those are going to be eaten up with small tasks. So the bigger tasks, whether they're. I have to. At Cerro Gordo, I have to manage a commercial hotel build. I'm playing general contractor. I am the cameraman and everything else. For videos, we have Daily stoic, which has 10 employees that need things every single day.

A (4:45)

I think it's way more than 10.

B (4:46)

But yeah, so we have Daily Stoke that has many employees that need things every day for me. And so it's kind of like A balancing act where I have a lot of things that I would like to do, you know, like for instance, right now I'm thinking about working on a book. Right. And so a book is a thing that is important to me. But when I know that I would be working on it in sacrifice of something that has a more urgent commitment to it, then things get reshuffled.

A (5:12)

And I guess I get it at some level because sometimes people ask me like, why do you not self publish? And I do feel like the open ended nature of like no one is asking for it, no one necessarily wants it. I get to make all the decisions, which means I can always make an excuse. I do find that open endedness to be less than ideal. So like there's something to me about like I've sold like a couple books in a row, so it's like I always know what I'm supposed to be doing. But what does for you, like, what does having a piece of paper change? Because actually I remember when you worked on your last book, you ended up pushing it like a bunch of. It's not like you actually, you didn't, you didn't breach, you weren't in breach of the contract. But it's not like the contract was like some, some document you refused to challenge.

B (5:58)

Yeah. It's like, why do kids procrastinate on their homework? You know, it's probably a similar thing where it's like for me, but if.

A (6:05)

A kid could be like, actually I don't have to, I can turn it in whenever I want.

B (6:09)

Yes.

A (6:10)

Which is like effectively what these contracts mean anyway. Yeah, there's something about it. It's like, I'm just wondering if there's like a little bit of like imposter syndrome in you that's like, you like, you don't think it's real until you've like brought someone else in.

B (6:23)

Probably. I'm probably looking for like a stamp of approval that like this is worth your time also, like outsourcing that part of it as well.

A (6:29)

Yeah.

B (6:30)

And so I think that like with videos as I've gone along, it's gone from like originally I created them because I really loved creating them and I still love creating them. But then eventually it becomes more of a business where I have like a contract with advertisers that say, hey, you need to produce this many videos per year. And then it's like, I'm a professional videographer at this point, you know, and so there's like that nature of it. And so I think with a book it's you are looking for somebody to tell you this is a good enough idea to spend a lot of time on. And I think that that can come from like a self motivated place if you have the bandwidth to like have that capacity. But I think in a truncated manner, I'm looking for something to say, hey, give this some time when there's a lot of other responsibilities on the horizon.

A (7:12)

But the video thing is interesting to me because, like, I'm wondering if, like having a slot like a sponsor helps you get out of your own head. I'm not like piling on you. I think this is actually a thing a lot of people have, right? You're like, if it has to go out by Sunday, it goes out by Sunday, even though it doesn't have to. And you could call the people and be like, hey, I don't have it this week. And they'd be like, fine. But there's something about that that just like, just it's slightly enough that it gets you out of your own head in a way that makes you more productive. And by the way, I've never seen anything that you've done. And I thought like, that seemed rushed. He was clearly just doing that to like check a box. That's like the opposite of what your things do. So I'm just wondering what that is.

B (7:52)

It is helpful, I think, like, there's like a perfectionist nature to it as anybody that like creates anything. I think too. So, like I could tinker on a video for a year and still be tinkering on it and tinkering on it. And so I think that like having that deadline is helpful and like, I think looking to you like you are like a machine where you have a book every year, which is helpful. And like, we both know authors, some close to us, that have tinkered on books for a very long time and not made a lot of progress. Yeah, yeah, on those books.

A (8:18)

I was just reading Camus the Plague and this guy's like, he's been working on the first sentence in this book for like 10 years or something. And it's like you look at all the different iterations of the sentences and they're like all like solid B's by the way. It doesn't matter. But that's what happens. You just get in your own head about it.

B (8:35)

Well, I think even going back to my book in full transparency, I pushed the book numerous times and I think that it got to a point where basically the publisher was like, if you push again, we will cancel the contract. And so then I got the book done suddenly. And so sometimes it does take that person that like no, you're going to get this done like that third party. And I could probably be like accountability partner. I know a lot of people have success having writing partners. In that case there's also, I remember.

A (8:59)

Tim Ferriss told me about website where you're like, okay, like you have to put, you put like a thousand dollars in escrow and if you like don't meet the deadline it like gives the money to like the KKK or something and you're just like, you would never want that. And so, so like it just, it forces some like horrifying possibility upon you that if you don't finish or start or whatever it is, it will.

B (9:21)

Yeah, everybody's individual, right? And it's like I've come to learn that a little bit and I, because even that you know that like I need some type of like deadline somebody else telling me that this is what I need to be focusing on. Otherwise like I focus on the other things that somebody else has told me that with.

A (9:35)

But it's funny because like I don't think anyone would look at you and be like, oh, that's definitely not a self starter. Like you're, you're perennially self employed. You've started multiple business, built most of what you have done at Cerro Gordo or other projects. Like not only did, did nobody ask you to do it or tell you to do it, but like they told you it would be impossible and it wouldn't work and like it was only by self motiv. So that's the other thing is it's like usually I guess I would take some solace in it. It's like most of the people who are high achievers also struggle with high amounts of procrastination and excuses and paralyzation and perfectionism. But it's interesting that you sometimes you struggle with it or in some cases you clearly struggle with it and then in other cases it's like preposterously not an issue for you.

B (10:23)

I think, I mean I'm fortunate in the fact that all these things that we're discussing are things that I want to do. So none of them are things I inherently do not want to do. And so like it's not that I'm pushing them off because I don't want to do it, it's just I'm pushing off because like I have this checklist of a lot of other things. And I do think and this is the nature of life, right? Like, if the book sold tomorrow, I would find the time to write it in addition to everything else.

A (10:44)

But did you think like, because you, you'd sent it out and you didn't get all the responses you wanted.

B (10:48)

Yeah.

A (10:48)

If someone had said, we're in. Yeah, for $1, yeah, I would, that would have been totally different than this kind of middling response that you got. And it's like inconsequential distinction.

B (10:59)

I do, I do think a lot of it is imposter syndrome. So like the idea of just writing a book on spec. Right. Just writing a book feels like every person in the world, this is, I'm going to write a book, you know, and then it's suddenly just like they're writing a book.

A (11:11)

But that's how I did. Trust me, I'm lying. I mean, my whole life changed because I, I basically quit my job, moved across the country and worked for six months on a book thing that.

B (11:19)

Yeah.

A (11:20)

No one was asking for and no one thought would work. Right. Yeah. So I, I, yeah. I wonder if in retrospect that was delusion, was that confidence? Was that. Or maybe I just wasn't thinking about it at all.

B (11:32)

Was it lack of, like, you have a lot more on your plate these days. You know what I mean?

A (11:35)

That's true. But I remember saying what somebody said to me, they were like, look, you'll either sell it.

B (11:41)

Yeah.

A (11:42)

Or you'll self publish it. So either way it's going to come out and it's worth you doing.

B (11:48)

Yeah.

A (11:48)

And I just remember that being very freeing. And I was like, okay, I'll just get started. Which is like the main thing. It wasn't like two months in, none of this was a problem. But it was just the like, should I or shouldn't I? That's where you're held up, I think.

B (12:02)

Going at his imposter syndrome too. It's like this book that I'm hoping to write is more of like, like a narrative nonfiction. It's a bigger swing. It's more of a writing book more than like less than anything else. And so like, I want a outlet that distinguishes between writers and non writers to say that you're a writer, you know what I mean?

A (12:19)

In some way, you let the finished product settle that discussion. Like, like, I guess what I saying is like, like, why don't you just take the, the somewhat ambivalent response that you got and use it as fuel to be like, oh, I'm going to show you that I can do.

B (12:33)

Definitely. That's definitely part of it. I I like I know the name of every publisher that passed on it, including the editor. And so we'll cut to this when the book's a big bestseller and like, I'll send them a clip.

A (12:50)

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B (15:53)

Flipping the table. You know me very well. You've known me for almost 15 years, which is hard to believe. You understand what I'm capable of and also what I struggle with. Given that I have the things that we outlined before, the responsibilities of the brash deck, blah, blah, blah. What do you think I should do?

A (16:08)

I think you should say like, hey, I'm going to give this a certain amount of time per day or per week and I'm going to be like, I'm going to give it one hour a day for, you know, for all of 20, 25 and just see where it is. Then like that's what I was telling you is like most of like you can either spend a lot of time trying to make it more appealing to get the selection or to get chosen and then still have to be at the exact same starting line. Like you can either qualify for the marathon or you can just be like, look online and be like, this is the course. I'm going to run the marathon and see if I measure up or not. You know, like I would just, I would just start by like putting some time in because who knows, maybe you'll get into it and you'll be like, actually, I really don't want to do this or it's really not that satisfying. I think I would just set aside a certain amount of time and put that time into it. And then knowing that like if you do that, not only will eventually a book come out of the other side that you'll either sell or self publish, but if you back up and you see it as a meta project of solving this tendency that you have. That would be good because this isn't the only place you're doing it. Like, again, not to put you on the spot, but you've been talking about this podcast idea, which I think is just as good as the book for, like, 18 months.

B (17:21)

Yeah.

A (17:22)

You're this close to start. You have most.

B (17:25)

I've recorded episodes.

A (17:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (17:27)

So the recorded episodes, it does. I think some of it, too, is like, fear of future bandwidth. Meaning, like, I'm afraid as I take these things on, if they are successful, then that's even more. I have to. Do you know what I mean? And, like, I'm not opposed to work guy. I work very hard, work very long. But it's like, I don't know. As I'm thinking out loud, that could be something.

A (17:46)

Well, no, this is something. I just saw Ramit when I was in New York. He came to my talk, the 92nd Street Y, and he's talked about this a bunch where, like, because he really likes working out and he. He's fascinated by personal trainers and like, saying personal trainers will talk about women. They don't want to hire a personal trainer because they don't want to get too strong. Like, they're worried about looking too strong. And it's like. It's like the definition of, like, cross this bridge when you come to it. It's like the. The problem is, is that most people sign up and then don't come. The problem is that most people come and get too good of a result too quickly, and then they don't know what to do about it. Right, right. And so, like, I get that where you're like, there's probably some level where subconsciously you're like, I don't want to start this thing because then what if it works? And then I'll take. But, like, you'll cross that bridge the same way you've crossed every one of those bridges with daily stoke, which is like, now you have a scaling problem, which you're actually uniquely qualified and practiced at solving.

B (18:44)

Yeah, that's true. Well, I think generally, if we also talk about it, like, I'm probably not the only person in the world that has a book idea that's good, that is failing to start because somebody else is saying, yes. What would you say to everybody else out there that has a book idea that hasn't started?

A (18:59)

Well, Seneca, I'll put you on the hot seat here, because Seneca says, the one thing that all fools have in Common is they're always getting ready to start. And that's where it's not like you're like someday you're like you are working on it.

B (19:11)

Yeah, yeah. Researcher.

A (19:12)

Yeah. You're just like. But you're just like waiting for some like you're waiting for like the, the bell to go off to start and that's not probably going to happen. Like for, for any of the things, you know, like nobody's hotly anticipating like anything that any of us are doing. Like it's all gotta be self driven.

B (19:34)

That's true. No, but so not to put you on has to be. Don't you ever feel though that like it becomes an obligation meaning like even this podcast for instance, right. Like you now know that you have to do.

A (19:43)

No, it's certainly I go like, hey, like just like maintenance on the things that I've committed to is like X amount of hours per week. Right. And then like the commute to getting my kids to school is X. There's like increasingly smaller windows which is definitely a self inflicted.

B (20:01)

Yeah.

A (20:02)

Like sort of tighter and tighter pressure cooker that I've put myself in. So I definitely see that. But like I do try to, to. I do try to separate like okay, what is like a work commit. Like okay, like I'm squeezing in one more talk that I'm supposed to do next week. Like we're recording this before the end of the year. People are probably listening to this at the beginning of the year, which is sort of what we're talking about because we're talking about like probably already you failed at some of your resolutions and that's why we redo the new year New you challenge, which you can sign up for it Dailystoke.com challenge but I'm like squeezing in one more thing before the end of the year. That's like, I probably shouldn't. It's whatever. I do that. But like I try to make a big distinction between like obligations and then like interests slash creative like the, the main. So it's like if I like I just had this idea for another book that's kind of like an in between book and I pitched it to my publisher on Monday when I was in New York and they were like, like, let's do it, you know, and like that to me, like when I look back, I'm not gonna be like, oh, I'm. I'm glad I squeezed in that extra talk. But I am going to be glad that I like worked on that cool thing I was excited about. So if it's something that you don't ever actually want to do. And then you're like, reticence to start. It is probably a good sign. Right. I think that's an if it's not a hell yes for something that sucks. That's different than, like, I'm not sure if I should do it or not do it. But, like, deep down you're like, I would love to have done that. Those are the things you have to like, like, barrel through the procrastination.

B (21:37)

Right.

A (21:37)

I'll give you another one. There's like an email in my inbox from this, like, startup that wants me to invest in it. And like, the guys were really nice and I was like, I've almost signed the paperwork like five times.

B (21:48)

Yeah.

A (21:48)

That I'm more suspicious of my. I guess I'm taking my procrastination as meaning something more there.

B (21:56)

Yeah.

A (21:56)

Than I am when I'm like, I'm in the middle of this project right now. It's really hard and challenging and I'm like, looking for an excuse not to do it. It.

B (22:04)

Yeah.

A (22:05)

That procrastination I'm barreling through.

B (22:07)

Right.

A (22:08)

Or resistance I want to see as the enemy versus other resistance. That it's like, no. That's like a spooky feeling warning you, like, you're in dangerous territory.

B (22:16)

Right. Would the hell yes or hell no. If we're Dirk's ever, you know, he said yes. Things are either hell yes or hell no. I think part of this too is like, as you become more successful, the hell knows are things that you previously would have said hell yes to.

A (22:28)

That's a great point. Sure.

B (22:29)

And so, like, like, this book idea had come to me five years ago before I had a YouTube channel. I would have been 100 in on that. And as you become more successful in there. But the other areas, the trade off.

A (22:39)

You start doing, that's where the opportunity cost is. Yeah, for sure. Yes. And if you had some competing thing that was like, real and concrete and whatever, that would be different also, I think. But it's a genuinely good idea. It's like something you would grow for having done. Yeah. And the downside of it is extremely low. Other than opportunity costs. I don't know. I'd probably push through.

B (23:04)

I've also one where, like, I haven't not been working. I've been quietly working on it. Maybe I'm just working out till I get to the point where I feel like, oh, I've actually been working on it. You know, I have the prologue and the Chapter one written already. And so there is work behind the scenes. And so that I think is like, an indication, even on myself, that I do want to do the thing.

A (23:21)

Yeah.

B (23:21)

But it would still be nice to have, like, a publisher be like, you're all right.

A (23:25)

The book is like this one big thing that you work on for many years, and then maybe it works or it doesn't. The podcast is a more, I think, illustrative and relatable one because, like, you could be 50 episodes into it by now and having, like, it either you could have either done it and turned out like your audience isn't interested in it and you're not interested in it, or you could be 50 stories in. It could be incredible. It could have gotten you whatever cred and security you needed to do the book. Like, yeah. You also just could have been, whoever you are, on the other side of doing 50 episodes of something.

B (24:04)

That's true.

A (24:04)

So that's, like, an interesting one because it's closer to what most people are doing, which is, like, iterative things that they're either starting or not starting the clock on.

B (24:13)

I've done about 10 episodes, and the point of that was like, I remember when Tim Ferriss started his podcast, he was like, I'm gonna give it 10 or whatever. He said, yeah, do six. And that feel when you make it a more manageable thing, it is more manageable. You still then have to put them out. But again, that's still, like, to me, I'm like, well, if I do six, I'm gonna have to do 600. You know what I mean? And then, like, it becomes, like, a growing thing.

A (24:32)

But, yeah, so. So there is. Is that the imposter syndrome of not wanting to launch it and it doesn't do. Like, are you. Because that's an interesting thing. You and I talked about this where, like, we knew someone who wanted to be a YouTuber, but they just never made any videos. And we were talking about how you have to. It's not ego exactly, but you have to have whatever the thing is that allows you to do your first shitty stuff that is public. Like Hemingway said, the first draft of anything is shit. But, like, the problem with a lot of stuff is that, unlike a manuscript, that draft gets seen by people. And are you struggling then with just not wanting to put something out and getting feedback on it? Like. Like, you are so good at making videos. Are you. Is it more like you don't know if you're gonna be good at this? Maybe.

B (25:22)

Yeah, maybe. I think that, like, I was Pretty fortunate where, like, my videos have done really well from the very beginning. And so, like, I can point to that, look, I'm good at making something. And then if you aren't good at making something else, like does that.

A (25:32)

But why don't you, like, okay, the videos came out, they did well. The email list came out. It did great. Why is your assumption that it won't be a third one in a row?

B (25:44)

I don't know. I don't know.

A (25:46)

I remember I was talking about someone that they were going to like, help me with some of my financial stuff. And I was like, I kept being like, you know, because then, like, this is going to go away. And then obviously. And he was like, but what if? Like, I think it was actually right. When I was thinking about the Four Virtues series, I was like, you know, this is the first time I'm selling four things in a row. And the way that money works in publishing, you get like a chunk of it at the front. So I was like, so obviously this is a one time thing. And then it's probably done for me. Like, like, this is my like. And he was like, but what if it's not? Like, he was just, he was like, what if the next one is bigger? And like, I couldn't conceive of that. And obviously him having other clients, like, he'd worked with a bunch of professional athletes. Like, they're always like, my first contract is the, the biggest one. But he just seen it enough times that like, no, sometimes, like, you keep going.

B (26:30)

Yeah.

A (26:31)

And like, that was like, hard for me to conceptualize. I wonder if you're like, the track record says you should be good at this too. Not from an egotistical standpoint, but like, you have an audience, you're good at it.

B (26:44)

Yeah.

A (26:44)

It should transfer a little bit.

B (26:46)

Like there's some of that. I mean, I remember even when I was doing my, my book that came out, like, I didn't. I don't think I show anybody drafts other than you at the very last minute.

A (26:55)

Yeah.

B (26:55)

And I was like, why don't I show them drafts? It's like, that's the dumbest thing ever because, like, they're going to see the final book.

A (27:00)

Yeah.

B (27:00)

And it's only going to be worse because you didn't show anybody drafts. And so like, I was hiding all of the work from, from everybody, including, like my closest friends.

A (27:08)

People who can help you make it better.

B (27:09)

Yeah. Instead I was like, no, no, no, I don't want to show them something that's not good. And Instead, they saw, like, a book that could have been better had I shown people things earlier on.

A (27:17)

That's how you should think about this podcast too, because it's like only a small percentage of the eventual audience will listen to the early ones. So, like, we talk about this at the Daily Stoker Museum. Like, start the clock, right? Like, you should start, like, who you're going to be a year in and two years in and five years in is like, obviously much better than who you are at the beginning.

B (27:36)

Sure.

A (27:37)

So, like, if you'd started the clock a year ago, you'd be one year in.

B (27:40)

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think to take the focus off myself a little bit, probably many, many, many people struggle with this exact thing. Totally.

A (27:49)

No, that's why I'm.

B (27:50)

I think it's just 90% of the people out there probably have some creative project that they've thought about and failed to begin for some reason. And I think it happens. What is that for you? What is the podcast in your version of that world? You know what I mean?

A (28:01)

I don't know if I'd have to think about it, like, creatively. Like, what is that thing? One example, like, I have. I've just noticed it, like, practically lately. Like, there'll be like an email for some. Like, like I'm having a handle, like some legal paperwork or I'm having to clean something up or have to make a decision about something. And I'll see this, like, email come in and I'll be like, oh, that's gonna be like, that's a high mental load thing. So I'll procrastinate. I won't open it. And then I'm opening it and the person's like, can you send me that thing again? And so it's like, like, actually it was like a. We weren't at the part I was dreading. It was like something leading up to that part. But I just made the whole thing last longer by. By, like, making it up in my head, you know, like, there was some decision Sam and I have to make on something, and I was like, we're like, putting it off, putting it off. And then it was like, actually, like, the examples that they showed us were, like, so far from what we could choose between that we had to send it back.

B (28:58)

Yeah.

A (28:58)

And so, like, like, we could have sent it back two weeks ago and then it would be finished faster and whatever. Like, I just find myself doing that a lot, like, mostly over, like, low stakes stuff.

B (29:08)

Yeah.

A (29:08)

I'm just like, letting stuff sit and pile up. And then I feel more and more pressure. And then when I look at them, I'm like, this was a low pressured thing that I. Yeah. Projected onto it. Something I was trying to avoid.

B (29:21)

Yeah.

A (29:22)

I don't know, like big things I'm procrastinating on. I actually don't think that much. I'm pretty good at that. Yeah. It's more the little things. One of my goals for 20, 26, maybe I'll have already failed at this by the time people are listening, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna declare email bankruptcy.

B (29:39)

What is that? Like, you're gonna go to Inbox zero, Just delete everything. That's not delete.

A (29:42)

I'm just gonna mark it all as. And I've been telling myself I've been gonna do it for like.

B (29:47)

Where are you at right now?

A (29:48)

Two years. Well, okay, so like, I have an email. I have like two emails as you know, I have one email that like newsletters go to and like, hey, we need an email address for this receipt that. Because. So that has like 50,000 unread emails. That's like, I never asked for most of those emails, so that doesn't count. But I have like, my email, it's got like five or six hundred. But they're like serious important emails.

B (30:10)

Yeah, totally.

A (30:12)

And they stretch back two or three years at this point. And I'm just gonna, like, obviously none of them are important or they would've.

B (30:19)

Replied all up again.

A (30:20)

Yeah, right. Yeah. And honestly, I bet there's like certain people or certain things that if I just search that name and marked those as red. Yeah.

B (30:25)

It would go clear 60% of it or.

A (30:27)

Yeah. Because it's them following up about this thing like 10 times, you know, or whatever. But so it's more like that. It's. There's like, things I know I need to do that I'm letting pile up and. And I'm like, even the. The Seneca's thing. Right. I'm telling myself I'm going to do it on January 1st.

B (30:44)

Yes.

A (30:44)

I could just walk into my office and do it right now.

B (30:47)

Yes.

A (30:48)

But on January 1st it'll be 10% larger.

B (30:51)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (30:53)

You know.

B (30:53)

Correct.

A (30:54)

So it'd be better if I did it right now.

B (30:55)

Yeah. Well, you should do something called the New Year New you at the New Year New Trondh.

A (31:02)

In the spirit of it's never too late, we are breaking with a little bit of tradition over at Daily Stoic and reopening the New Year New you challenge. We usually kick off the year with 21 days of stoic inspired challenges. And we heard from a bunch of people that came back from vacation late or they procrastinated, they changed their mind, or they stumbled on their resolution. And well, we wanted to say it's not too late. You're still working on yourself, you're trying to get better, you want to make changes. And this is all inspired by stoic wisdom. So I would love to see you in there, break out of the doom loop, cultivate gratitude, take charge of the year, focus more, develop confidence, find calmness and stillness in a crazy world. A bunch of great stuff in here. It is not too late to make 2026 your best year. Stop dreaming and, and you know, be that person. Well, you can sign up right now@dailystoic.com challenge and I will see you in there. We've got a bunch of awesome stuff. I think you're really going to like it. So sign up now@dailystoic.com challenge. I'll see you in there. I think we may have built a day around that for this reason. Like, what's a task you've been putting off? Like, what's one thing?

B (32:14)

Well, I guess like within the stokes, like if I had to hold on to something to convince me to do my book.

A (32:20)

Yeah.

B (32:21)

What am I holding onto?

A (32:22)

I mean, what I would hold on to is like the whole Cerro Gorda could burn down to the ground again, you know, Like, I mean, you could fall down a fucking mine shaft. All these, these are not like extremely unlikely possibilities. Like one of them is a thing that already happened once.

B (32:40)

Yes.

A (32:40)

And another one is a fate you tempt on a regular basis. So. And that's not even getting into other possibilities, which is like, like, I don't know, you're not gonna be the person who has the freedom that you have now forever.

B (32:54)

Sure, I agree with that.

A (32:55)

And like, so this is like the time to do it.

B (32:57)

Right. So how, how then. So for a very practical example, this winter I had like three months dedicated and I was either.

A (33:06)

You already filled up like 50 of it doing something else.

B (33:08)

I was either going to write this book full time. Yeah, full time, meaning in my spare free time, or go on a road trip where that is a guaranteed paycheck that's gonna guaranteed go to the rebuilding the hotel will guarantee advance my goals at Cerro Gordo.

A (33:25)

Sure.

B (33:25)

And so the proposal didn't get the response I wanted it to. The road trip got an immediate sponsorship for the whole series of it. And so now I'm spending these three Months doing a road trip, which I'm excited about, but at the same time, you know what I mean?

A (33:42)

Like, well, I think two things. I don't think your road trip actually needs to take three months. And then, and then. And no one actually said that you have to do it all by car.

B (33:50)

That's true.

A (33:51)

Even you know, famously when you read like walk in the woods or like it's like three different trips. You know what I mean? Right. Like no one, no one actually needs you to do a contiguous road trip. Like park your car at an airport and fly home and whatever. So I think, I think not needing it to all or nothing is another way that we excuse procrastination. Like, I don't, I just don't have the headspace right now. Or like I can't dedicate as much time as I would like to it right now. So I'm just not going to. Which is horseshit, right? It's like. And that leads me to the. Maybe the thing I was saying earlier, which is like, tell yourself that one is contingent on the other, that accepting this is contingent on you saying, hey, I'm going to wake up at six in the morning every day of the trip and I'm going to write from six to seven. Seven, six, seven. Yeah, that's what it's probably by the time this is people. That's how you know I have a nine year old and a six year old. That's what I would do. I would make, you know, like, I will allow myself this, which is important and responsible for like adult business reasons. But I'm only going to accept that if I use it to support what I've committed to do for like creative fulfillment, meaning purposes.

B (35:10)

I like that because I think it's very easy for everybody to fill available space with anything. Right? And especially like we said, like as you have success, you can fill. They're both very cool things to do. You know, they're not like one's not undesirable to do. And so I have no problem filling my days with plenty of things that are really cool, which is a very fortunate position to be in. A lot of people have this fantasy that they're gonna go off in the woods and that's where they, that's what they need to finish their book. Why do you, you hate writers retreats?

A (35:38)

I mean, I hate writing retreats because it's, it's basically an expensive form of procrastination. It's a, it's fantasy camp. You are saying I could be writing right now I could have written this morning, I could write tomorrow morning, but actually I need to save it up for like three weeks when I go to this expensive place in upstate New York or. Or when I go to this glamorous cabin in the woods. And like, you're just looking for an escape from the day to dayness that is doing the thing. The idea that you're gonna get a book done in two weeks or in a month in a sprint. It's like the whole thing was never a sprint to begin with. It's a marathon.

B (36:17)

Right.

A (36:18)

It's a long, extended endurance sport. And there might be punctuated moments of intensity, sure. But like, that's probably not what's gonna happen. And in fact, you're not doing it it day to day because you're saving it up for this period when you're really going to be ready. I'm like, I'm. I'm like, you know, Baldwin was obsessed with these writing retreats. And then he would go and mostly drink and talk on the phone. He would call his. His boyfriends and he would, whoever you are here, you're going to be where you're going. It's just. You're just paying for it. And it's a slightly more glamorous setting and you're going to be telling yourself that this is contributive and it's not. And so I think mostly it's dumb and mostly it's like, go to your office, go to a coffee shop, sit in your car. On. Do it on your phone. Like just, just do it and do it. A couple crappy pages a day and eventually you have a manuscript that can be turned into not crap.

B (37:14)

But don't you ever have the. The fantasies for me? Like, right. My fantasy. This winner was.

A (37:19)

Yeah.

B (37:19)

A publisher.

A (37:20)

This was going to be your writer's retreat. You're coming here. Yeah, yeah.

B (37:23)

So like, publisher gives you an advance. I come to somewhere where no one's bothering me.

A (37:27)

Better weather.

B (37:27)

Better weather. Or I was like, you know, if I want to get crazy, I'll rent a cabin in Key West. You know, I'll seep in Hemingway everything I need. You know, I, like, the aura of the place will get to me and like. But having. At some point in your career, you have fallen victim at all of, like, wanting to live the lifestyle of what we perceive to be a writer.

A (37:46)

Well, first off, how's the writing retreat going for you? You're leaving in two days to drive thousands of miles over the country to not do the thing that you specifically said you were going to do. I mean, yeah, sure, yeah. And look, sometimes it is nice to be in a cool spot, like, and I like taking my stuff with me when I'm already going somewhere and I'll get a little bit here or there. It can be fun sometimes, but it's mostly a day to day thing and there's no escape, there's no hack. I would almost count on the destination. Writing, fostering creativity. I would say, like, you're actually paying for it to be worse. It's like they say, like, when you take your kids on vacation, you're paying to not have childcare. That's like what you're doing. So, like, it's actually much less relaxing. That's how I would.

B (38:32)

That said, you've lived in what many would consider writing hotspots. You lived in New York City, you lived in la, you lived in New Orleans, you lived in Austin, you've lived in Florida.

A (38:43)

Sure.

B (38:43)

And so what is the best place to write?

A (38:46)

My friend Chase Jarvis says the best camera is the one that you have on you. Like, the best place to write is wherever you are, whenever you have time. I would say the best, the best place to write is like, early in the morning or late at night, wherever the fuck you happen to be. And every. Everything else is window dressing and fantasy and pretending and nonsense. But sure, like, there's a reason I live outside Austin as opposed to, you know, wherever. And there's a reason I have an office instead of at a coffee shop. There are ways you're turning the dials a little bit, but there's not a button you can press or a ticket you can buy or a fellowship you can give that's gonna make you do this hard thing that is mostly only yours to do. And if there was a magical solution, someone would've figured it out already.

B (39:33)

Yeah. So none of those cities do it for you?

A (39:36)

I mean, no more than any other place. No more than any other place. Because it's not about. The one thing they all have in common is you. And as they say, like, wherever you go, there you are.

B (39:49)

Isn't there this narrative that, like, you go to Gertrude Stein's apartment in Paris and you suddenly become a great writer? So, like, scene, right?

A (39:55)

Sitting at Joan Didion's table, is it doing anything for you? I literally sit in Joan Didion's chair every day. It's pretty uncomfortable, to be perfectly honest. And that's all, that's all very silly. Like, James Clear talked to me about. He's like, two magical hours. That's all he asks for himself. It's like he does, like, the first two hours. And that's how I do it. Like. Like, most of us are not Robert Caro or Robert Greene or whatever, where you're working, like, for 12 hours a day on this insane project for 10 years. Like, and by the way, most of what we're trying to do does not demand that. Like, we're not trying to solve complex theoretical physics either. So we don't need to do what Richard Feynman is doing. So I think, like, just the decision to go, like, hey, I'm going to spend this amount of time on a day in and day out basis. Like, if you can do that, you'll eventually get where you want to go. And in this case, because you don't have a contract, you don't have a time. Like, it doesn't have to be done by any time. And it's not like anyone's going to scoop you on this idea. And it's not like it's becoming any more or less relevant. It's a timeless idea about a thing that you have a monopoly on and you're one of the only people in the world that even knows about. Like, just do it. Just chip away at it. The funny thing is, like, the thing that you think will give you permission or make it easier doesn't actually solve that logistical problem at all. Because, like, let's say, actually one of the people who went out to got back late and they're like, no, no, I want it. And it's a great. You still have this other thing. And you probably still would have had this other thing anyway. And you'd be like, well, what order should I do them in? And you'd be like, I gotta do both. And so it just comes down to just, like, fucking do it. You know what I mean? Like, just say to yourself, you're gonna do it.

B (41:37)

It.

A (41:37)

I think Epictetus. I think I actually have this as the epigraph to the daily dad. This is Epic Tetus's first say to yourself what you would be. And then do what you have to do. Like, what's the thing that you want to do? And then you. You do it. And then. All right, so how about this? I'll go back and mark unread on all those emails.

B (41:57)

Yes.

A (41:58)

And you will schedule the first episode. Everything.

B (42:01)

Deal.

A (42:02)

Subscribe below. I'm only nagging you about these two things, too, because I want you to do both of them. Like, I think they're both really good ideas, and I would like to consume them.

B (42:13)

I'm very excited about both of them, even though I'm not well, I am pursuing both of them in, like, my own timid way. And I do think that also though, like, the road trip will feed into both in some way, maybe. So I think that it'll be. End up pretty good.

A (42:26)

What I wonder too, like, if I'm, like, psychoanalyzing you, I think it's less likely, like, you're worried about, like, the commitment in the future. Like, if you do the thing, then it's like you have this thing. I think you kind of have a good. Not a good setup, but you have a. You have a perfectly unscalable setup now. It's mostly you. There's a handful of people. It all runs through you. There's no hierarchy, organization, structure. It's just like you waking up and what am I going to do today? And there's probably some level where, like, operationalizing it the way that you. That ironically, that's been your role with Daily Stoic is like, I have ideas, and then you help me operationalize them into, like. I was like, hey, we're doing the email. It's going well. But, like, what if we did a podcast version, like, for people who don't know Brent's the one that, like, makes the things real for the most part, there's probably some level where you are either afraid to do that for yourself or you are intimidated by the idea of having to get someone to help you do that.

B (43:32)

I think so. I think that the idea of, like, because would that seemingly comes more responsibility because then you're responsible for another person and then another person, and.

A (43:40)

And you're like, wait, I have two of the things.

B (43:43)

Yeah, so there's part. It's partially that, but it's like, it's weird too, because, like, I think a lot of people resonate with this too. Like, I want the things, you know, I want the podcast to be doing well. I want the book to be under development. It's just something about, like.

A (43:56)

Like, well, that's what he's saying. He's like, what do I have to be? Or what do I want? And then you're like, yeah, then you gotta do what you, you know, you. You know what you have to do. And so you just have to do that thing.

B (44:07)

Yeah, well, it's a. It's also like. And probably you could speak to this as well, especially to the authors. Like, my first book did well. The next book that I wanna do is not in the same genre. Of the first book. It's further from home.

A (44:19)

I can very. I mean, what do you think my book is like, let's do a philosophy book to follow up this marketing hit.

B (44:25)

And so like when you feel like you did a good job within the space, but then the response to your next idea is like tepid, you know, it's like a little.

A (44:34)

The Conspiracy is my worst selling book.

B (44:36)

It's one of, if not my favorite book of yours.

A (44:38)

That's what I'm saying. And I can say that very confidently. Like I'm in, in many respects, proudest of it. Yeah. And like the book that I'm working on now, if it works right. It will probably also be one of my worst selling books. Like success is like a foregone conclusion.

B (44:54)

Sure.

A (44:55)

Not as good as the other ones, but so you got to know where different things fit.

B (44:59)

Yeah.

A (44:59)

But then also like what I know is that day to day, I'm fucking loving doing it because like I, it's what I wanted to do. It's what I'm interested in and I'm learning and growing. So I'm like, oh, it's like it's success. Even if I was doing it for. Even if it was a money losing project.

B (45:13)

Yeah.

A (45:14)

Which I guess at some point if you're like advance and then the advances here and then like the, the expenses of research and time or whatever, at some point it does become a money losing proposition. Thankfully we're nowhere close to that. But like I'd be like, okay. Because like I'm, I'm making withdrawals too and that I'm like liking what I'm doing every day. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.