BONUS | Ryan Holiday Curates a Reading List for Nick Thompson

Summary

The Daily Stoic – BONUS | Ryan Holiday Curates a Reading List for Nick Thompson

Date: November 6, 2025
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guests: Literary colleagues, historians, authors

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Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode of The Daily Stoic, Ryan Holiday—along with a few book-loving colleagues and guests—curates an eclectic reading list for Nick Thompson. The discussion dives deep into powerful works of history, philosophy, memoir, and running, weaving in their insights on ethics, politics, and the role of Stoicism. The tone is casual, warm, and intellectually curious, peppered with personal anecdotes and bookish banter. Stoic themes appear throughout as Ryan and his peers reflect on how great books connect to virtue, endurance, and the examined life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Survival Stories

• (02:38–03:25)
  • Recommending a harrowing true story of a couple stranded at sea after their boat is sunk by a whale:
    • "This couple...decides to go on a sailing trip from London to New Zealand, and then literally in the middle of it...a whale jumps and sinks the boat...they spent like six weeks...in a raft floating in the ocean, and they're catching sharks and turtles. It's amazing."
      — [Historian or Author, 02:38]
  • The story is impactful because much of their journey was chronicled in a diary.

2. Ethics & Human Nature in Extreme Circumstances

• The Berlin Tunnel Project
  • (03:33–04:49)
    • CBS funded a tunnel to help people escape East Berlin, filming the process (at great risk).
    • "You're paying them to commit, like, an international crime that could bring about a nuclear war...But the crazy thing too, is that it also means that the whole process is filmed as it's happening."
      — [Historian or Author, 04:18]
    • Raises ethical questions about the complicity and risks of journalism in political events.

3. Stoic Dilemmas: Seneca in Nero’s Court

• Navigating Power & Responsibility
  • (05:03–06:20)
    • Seneca's narrative: an “adult in the room” or an enabler?
    • "On the one hand, you're constraining them by taking papers off their desk...And then you're also enabling and emboldening them to do the horrible things that they're doing."
      — [Historian or Author, 05:56]
    • Draws parallels to modern examples (e.g., advisors in the Reagan administration).
    • Discussion also touches on the similar arc of Plato and his attempts to influence tyrants.

4. Biographies, Memoirs & Writers’ Lives

• (06:42–09:26)
  • Praise for books about Churchill, Robert Wright, and the dynamic between fathers and sons (including Kafka’s Letter to the Father as a parenting text).
  • "My favorite part of the Kafka thing is that he writes the letter, [gives] it to his mom to give to the [dad]...and then you go, oh, it's a dynamic. It's not just like you have one parent."
    — [Historian or Author, 07:44]
  • Mention of “ghostwriters” who elevate memoirs, highlighting projects like Phil Knight’s Shoe Dog and Prince Harry’s Spare.

5. Running Books: Where Endurance Meets Philosophy

• Scarcity and Standouts in Running Literature
  • (08:35–13:32)
    • Discussion about Murakami’s What I Talk About When I Talk About Running (some find it bland, some find it illuminating).
      • "I don't love his running book...It's a little bland. It's a little too self-involved."
        — [Book Editor or Literary Colleague, 10:41]
    • Endorsements for “Born to Run” (though the panelists lampoon the barefoot trend it spawned), Alex Hutchinson’s Endure, Dean Karnazes’ running stories, and the Greek roots of marathon running.
    • "There's not really that many great running books...Weirdly, very few."
      — [Historian or Author, 13:30]
    • Exploring the link between writing and running as endurance practices:
      • "That's a nice thing in Murakami's book. His lines about what he's learned about writing and how it ties into what he's learned from running. That I like."
        — [Book Editor, 13:55]

6. Medical History & Modern Crisis

• (16:37–17:17)
  • Applauding John Green's book on tuberculosis and its link to contemporary public health complacency:
    • "We could live in a world where no one gets tuberculosis. We just...choose not to."
      — [Historian or Author, 16:48]
  • Comparison to the COVID-19 pandemic.

7. Memoir, Loss, and Unexpected Great Books

• (17:18–19:14)
  • Intense praise for moving memoirs about death and family, such as Death Be Not Proud by John Gunther and works by the lead singer of The Airborne Toxic Event.
  • Reflection on how trauma shapes writing and surprising literary depth in unexpected places.

8. New & Noteworthy Biographies

• (21:12–28:42)
  • Ryan and his guest discuss a biography-in-progress about James Stockdale, stoic philosopher and Vietnam POW, who witnessed the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
    • "He has this terrible secret...that not only is it an explosive secret, but it would make you doubt whether you should be loyal to the country that you are currently giving your life to, not betray."
      — [Historian or Author, 26:04]
  • Stockdale’s intellectual and political arc is explored as a lived example of Stoicism in adversity.

9. History and Publication Legacies

• (29:00–30:45)
  • Touch on the complicated legacies of major publications—The Atlantic included both noble and shameful chapters.
  • "It's nice to have a history that you can be proud of as a publication...We published some real shitty people.”
    — [Book Editor or Literary Colleague, 29:30]
  • Celebrating writers who embodied action and engagement, from Civil War heroes to those who championed marginalized voices (e.g., the Atlantic’s role in publishing Emily Dickinson).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You can't write without reading." — [Historian or Author, 30:55]
• "Every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that, if you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you." — [Ryan Holiday, 15:11]
• "Studying their lives made me smarter every day. Just like understanding how they made choices and what they did." — [Book Editor or Literary Colleague, 28:51]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Content | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 02:38 | Introduction to the reading list, survival narratives | | 03:33 | Ethical dilemmas: The Berlin Tunnel | | 05:03 | Seneca, power, and the perils of influence | | 08:35 | Running literature and its connection to philosophy | | 13:32 | The scarcity of great running books | | 16:37 | John Green’s book on tuberculosis and public health | | 17:41 | Memoirs of loss and resilience | | 21:12 | Joan Didion’s unpublished therapy notes | | 23:12 | Stockdale biography and Stoicism under pressure | | 29:00 | The Atlantic's historical legacy | | 30:55 | Reflections on reading and writing |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is lively, candid, and steeped in literary enthusiasm—equal parts introspective and humorous. The speakers blend personal connections, deep literary critique, and the perennial relevance of Stoic wisdom, making the episode an engaging literary salon for the modern stoic.

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Takeaways

• Great books—biographies, memoirs, history, and running literature—can illuminate timeless stoic themes of endurance, responsibility, and ethical dilemmas.
• Reading deeply and widely is foundational for both living and writing well.
• Stoicism remains relevant in guiding individual and societal choices, from navigating corrupt power to overcoming personal trials.

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For a regularly updated and thoughtfully curated reading list from Ryan Holiday, sign up at ryanholiday.net/readinglist.

Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

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[Toyota Trucks Advertiser]

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[Ryan Holiday]

Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each day we bring you a stoic inspired meditation designed to help you find strength and insight and wisdom into everyday life. Each one of these episodes is Based on the 2000 year old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women to help you learn from them, to follow in their example, and to start your day off with a little dose of courage and discipline and justice and wisdom. For more visit Dailystoic.com.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Only books that you love.

[Historian or Author]

Only books that we love. Like this is the New. These are books that my wife told me I should read and then I put off reading and then I loved them when I read them. This is amazing. That this is this woman's first book is unbelievable, huh? Do you know this story? This couple is like decides to go on a sailing trip from London to New Zealand and then literally in the middle of it, like outside Hawaii or something, a whale jumps and sinks the boat. Which you wouldn't think could have actually happened, but it did and then they spent, like, six weeks in a. Eight weeks in a. In a raft floating in the ocean, and they're catching sharks and turtles. It's amazing. Super good story because, like, they say they. They had, like, a diary. So there's, like, diaries of a good chunk of it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Amazing.

[Historian or Author]

This is also insane. So good. I take that one.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's about.

[Historian or Author]

They're digging a tunnel from West Berlin to East Berlin to get people out. But cbs, like, the ethics of this, you may be interested in. So CBS finds out that they're doing this and obviously wants to do a story about it, but they can't because. So see, so the guy doing the tunnel says, okay, and he has, like, lunch or something with the president of CBS News. If you give us the money to dig the tunnel, we'll let you film us while we're doing it. And so it's.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This is the weirdest ethical choice ever.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's amazing.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Historian or Author]

And so, like, he knows. And maybe one of the. But it's. So the whole thing.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

But you're paying them to get out of Eastern.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah. You're paying them to commit, like, an international crime that could bring about a nuclear war or something. Right. And so the stakes of it are incredible. But what. It means. Depth of the Cold War. Okay, but the. But the crazy thing, too, is that it also means that the whole process is filmed as it's happening.

[Ryan Holiday]

And.

[Historian or Author]

But also, like, if they get caught, like, the Russians aren't gonna be like, oh, you're a journalist.

[Ryan Holiday]

You're right.

[Historian or Author]

It's fine.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

No problem.

[Historian or Author]

So it's crazy. So take that one. And then here's the. I just interviewed Jim Drum. But this is. This is Seneca in the Court of Nero. And it's all about this dilemma we're talking about. Oh, yeah, of course.

[Ryan Holiday]

Those are for you. Amazing.

[Historian or Author]

Thank you. So I think about that one all the time.

[Ryan Holiday]

Awesome.

[Historian or Author]

Which is fascinating, because then you just wrote another book that you have somewhere. Plato does the same thing. Plato goes. And he doesn't just want to be an academic, he wants to be involved in politics. And so he's like the teacher of this teacher tyrant who he's trying to convert to democracy. But really he's. The tyrant is just using his reputation to make people think he's more democratic than he is. And so that's the interesting thing about Seneca, too, is you could go like, okay, yeah, he's the adult in the room. But also, as we. And you understand this stuff more when you see analogs of it happening in the Present is you're like, okay. But also, I bet other people are saying, well, Nero can't be that bad or Seneca wouldn't be working with him.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Right, right.

[Ryan Holiday]

Like.

[Historian or Author]

Or you go, actually, you can tell that Nero is smart because he has people like Seneca around him. And it's like, so, yes, on the one hand, you're. You're constraining them by taking papers off their desk or being like, do you really want to murder this person or not? And then you're also enabling and emboldening them to do the horrible things that they're doing.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

The dynamic between NHTSA and Reagan, where he's like a Democratic establishment, like, code warrior. Oh, he's working with the Reagan administration. Reagan administration can't be too hawkish, these California people.

[Historian or Author]

Exactly. And so, yeah, it's in.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Not that Reagan was a murderous person.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, no, no, of course. No.

[Historian or Author]

It's the analog that gives you the kind of insight. So that one's really good. This book on Churchill and his son is interesting.

[Ryan Holiday]

I haven't read that one.

[Historian or Author]

I've read a good bit about Churchill.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

But I haven't read that one.

[Historian or Author]

I love Robert Wright's stuff. Oh, that book is so good.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

His whole.

[Historian or Author]

I saw that you had some. The Moral Animal is very good. Yeah. Did you read the Sebastian Younger book on Dying?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

No, but you know Sebastian Younger. Fun fact about him, he has, I believe, the fastest marathon time of any journalist. He ran like a T19.

[Historian or Author]

Really?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

He was here. He didn't tell me this.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah, well, he just was like a brief period of his life. He was like, near Olympic trials level. Kind of amazing, right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Wow.

[Ryan Holiday]

I did not know.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I saw his YouTube video on in the Time of Dying, but I haven't.

[Historian or Author]

The book is really good. Let's see. Have you read Kafka's Letter to the Father?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I have read Kafka's Letter to the Father.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

I think that's one of the greatest parenting. My favorite part about it.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That one's great, too.

[Historian or Author]

I'm talking to him soon. Yeah, he's in the book.

[Ryan Holiday]

In your book.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah. But the other one, I think that I put that in a. In the parenting section deliberately. I think it's actually a parenting book.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's totally a parenting book. It's so good.

[Historian or Author]

No, he's awesome. But yeah, my favorite part of the Kafka thing is that he writes the letter, sends it to his mom to give to the mom, and then she does it, and then you go, oh, it's a dynamic. It's not just like you have one parent. Yeah. Like, the parents were attracted to each other for some reason, too. And then they had their own toxic relationship or dynamic that affects the kids.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This is such a good collection. Right. So that started in the Atlantic.

[Historian or Author]

God bless him. He's great. Although he just joined. I just writes for us.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

She's a buddy for us now. Like her a lot.

[Historian or Author]

She's awesome. We should have Olga's book around here somewhere, too. Unless we sold it. She was here. Ali Parrot. And we should have Tom Nichols book, the Death of Expertise somewhere. Malcolm a runner. Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Historian or Author]

I've run with David before. I've never run with Malcolm. We should have what I talk about when I talk about running. Did you read the Novelist as a vocation? His writing book? No, I've never read that Skin.

[Ryan Holiday]

I just.

[Historian or Author]

So I read. I read what I talk about when I talk about running. And then I was just in. I mean, I read it 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And then so I just did the Greece Marathon.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Oh, cool.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

Did you read.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

There's a wonderful. You actually. You like this book? Her name is, like, Andrea, and it's a book about running with the Greeks. And it's sort of like Greek wisdom for running a marathon. So she's a scholar of, like, Greek history and the greats, and it's one. It's, like, full of these beautiful insights about running. And then she runs the Athens Marathon.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Her name is Andrea Maricolongo, I think.

[Historian or Author]

Okay.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It just came out, like, a few months ago. It's so good.

[Ryan Holiday]

All right.

[Historian or Author]

It's really good because he does it in the book. He does it backwards. And so I was, like, thinking about, would I do it that way? Because that is the pain in the ass. It's like, how do you get 25 miles away? Or whatever.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

But no, I did it. It was fun. And then I talked to, you know, Dean Carnazes.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

I mean, I talked to him a few times. So he heard I was there, and he called me and he was like, hey, like, when are you doing it? And I was like, oh, I'm doing it.

[Ryan Holiday]

He's like.

[Historian or Author]

He's like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm out of town. I would just do it with you. He was just, like, gonna do it, like, at the drop of a hat. Like, I was gonna run 26 miles, no problem.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah, that guy's.

[Historian or Author]

And then I was, like, at some. Some level, also grateful because I only like running by myself. But, yeah, it was interesting.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

There aren't that many great books about running.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Weirdly, very few.

[Historian or Author]

Very few.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I like Once A Runner is the classic by John Parker, the novelist.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, I hated that book.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's cliched and dorky, but it's awesome.

[Historian or Author]

Yes, it's very like.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I'll fight you on that one. Endurk by Alex Hutchinson is really good.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Sabrina Little has like a book about running and philosophy that I like a lot that came out like a year or two ago.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, what's that?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's like, it's called like all running or something. I actually don't love the Murakami. I love Murakami. I don't love his running book.

[Ryan Holiday]

Really?

[Historian or Author]

What don't you like about it?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I think it's a little bland. It's a little too self involved. Like the density of like beautiful sentences and important thoughts to total amount of content is not as high as it.

[Historian or Author]

So if you were his editor, what would you have told him to do?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I would have told him to like spend another year on this book.

[Ryan Holiday]

It does feel.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah. It's kind of thrown. Thrown together and it's probably, if you, if you looked at the bones of it, probably like a collection of essays that got like stapled together as opposed to like a book on.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's not up to Mercami's level.

[Historian or Author]

There's Born to Run, which is, yeah, amazing but completely false. You don't do the barefoot thing.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I mean like we have run the experiment.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Like everybody read that book and started running barefoot.

[Historian or Author]

How many people run barefoot?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Very few. Very few.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Because they've like all stepped on nails and. And also because like we've invented shoes that make you go much faster.

[Historian or Author]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's true.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Which is what he said wasn't happening. Right, right.

[Historian or Author]

That the shoes are slowing you down.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That said, the book is awesome.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, yeah. It's got great descriptions of running.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's incredible.

[Historian or Author]

So the Dean Carnazes book that I read while I was there doing it, he does. So the story is that that guy runs from Marathon to Athens and that's why it's the marathon. Actually the guy ran from Athens to Sparta and back. So it's like 150 miles. And so Philippides.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Really?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes. I didn't know that.

[Historian or Author]

That's why if he died, that's why he died.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Because he ran 150 miles.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

So the whole, the whole army runs from Marathon to Athens because they beat. They fight.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Fact checking.

[Historian or Author]

They fight the. The Persians at Marathon. And what the Persians had done is they'd split their forces and they sent half down to Athens. So Athens is left undefended. So there's this Athenian general who's like, no, no, we'll fight him here and then. And then we'll race there and fight. And so that's what they did. They fight and then the whole army makes the 25 mile ish run in the army in the armor, having just fought a battle. And then when they show up, the Persians go, oh, it's not undefended. And then they leave. So that's. So what had happened is they send the runner from. Before any of this happens, they send the runner from Athens to Sparta to ask Sparta if they would participate, which they didn't. Maybe why they were so willing the second time around to give everything at Thermopylae. So that's the actual story.

[Ryan Holiday]

So.

[Historian or Author]

But there's a. There is a. It's called the Spartathlon or whatever. There's a run that starts in. Ends in Sparta. And he did that and he. And it's a. It's a good book called the Road to Sparta. And he does it, but he tries to like only eat. He only eats like figs or something on the course of the run or something.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I try to make it more like what it was.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

Great, great. So that there was that. That's not great for digestive system. I think if I'm remembering correctly in the book, he talks quite at length about problems that it's feeding in that digestive system.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Running books sometimes have a little too much on that. But yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Historian or Author]

But yeah, there's not really that many great running books.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Peter Sagal's book is kind of fun, but it's not. It should be better.

[Historian or Author]

It should be more.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Why.

[Historian or Author]

I wonder why that is.

[Ryan Holiday]

I don't know.

[Historian or Author]

Especially because they might listen to it on audiobooks while they're running. Right now the market is there are.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

More running books coming out. There have been a whole bunch that came out in the last year, but nothing that I've totally loved.

[Historian or Author]

I think the tie between writing and running is interesting too.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's.

[Historian or Author]

I think obviously what comes up.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That is a nice thing in Murakami's book. Right. Like his lines about what he's learned about writing and how it ties into what he's learned from running. That I like.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Historian or Author]

What else do you like? What have you read? Have you read any of these recently?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Read this one, of course. This book is awesome.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, he's the best. He was just that one.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Obviously. Read the Janet. The Janet Malcolm.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

David Halberstone. I read the Walter Isaacson on Doudna.

[Historian or Author]

I don't know why that's in history. That should probably be in biography.

[Ryan Holiday]

But.

[Historian or Author]

This. This Tom Ricks and then Tom Rex is great. And Jeffrey Rosen. Those two books are sort of the stoic influences on the founders.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Oh, that.

[Historian or Author]

Actually, can I read Jeffrey Rosen on there? That sounds awesome. I would love to upset your bunch.

[Ryan Holiday]

Foreign thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastow County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on.

[Historian or Author]

Thought, this isn't going to work.

[Ryan Holiday]

Stopped, parked. It walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. One I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids, who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota Adventure Detour. And, of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that, if you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory. Learn [e-mail] Trucks Adventure detours.

[Historian or Author]

The John Green book on tuberculosis is really good.

[Ryan Holiday]

This one.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah. It sort of goes to the point on. Okay. That we're talking about.

[Ryan Holiday]

He basically.

[Historian or Author]

Basically, he's like, we could live in a world where no one gets tuberculosis. We just, like, we choose not to. Not to live in that world. Yeah. Because. Because we think it's not a problem that affects us. And he's like, let me tell you, here's what it's like with COVID is what's gonna happen is they're gonna develop. We're gonna develop a new strain of tuberculosis that the current medication doesn't work on.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

And then we're all gonna have to protect it. Kills like a million people a year. And we're just like, yeah, that seems like an okay number. Which is of course insane.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This book. This guy was a friend of mine in college.

[Historian or Author]

You knew him?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Buddies. That book's incredible. It's the best book about dying I've ever read.

[Historian or Author]

It's just that someone could write that book, period, who's not like a professional writer is insane. And that to do it as you're dying is insane. Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That book just like that made me cry so much.

[Historian or Author]

Have you read Death Be not Proud? Do you know who Johnny Gunther or John Gunther was?

[Ryan Holiday]

The Journal.

[Historian or Author]

So his son gets a brain tumor at like 16 and son's like a genius is about to be accepted to Harvard and he gets a brain tumor and it's like about his. The last year of his son's life and it's obviously devastating. And. And then also just one of the most incredible books that you've ever read. This book serves to be next to.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's surprisingly great. Of course it's so good.

[Historian or Author]

But it's because it's probably the greatest ghostwriter in history. Who is the ghostwriter on that book? I'm forgetting his name, but he does so. And maybe the best selling ghostwriter of all time. Because he does this book. He does the Phil Knight Shoe Dog book and then he did Prince Harry's book.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Oh, spare.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Did you like this one? This guy was actually on the standard tracking with me.

[Ryan Holiday]

I like that.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I like it.

[Historian or Author]

So I mean, they're like an okay band. I mean they're like a pretty good band.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I don't like the music, but.

[Historian or Author]

But you wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, let me.

[Ryan Holiday]

If I.

[Historian or Author]

If you're like, okay, this is the lead singer of the Airborne Toxic event. Tell me what his life story was. Yeah, you wouldn't guess. Like his mom's and this weird cult.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

Right.

[Historian or Author]

And that I thought it's. It's one of those books where like the. The memoir is unexpectedly good.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

And. And thus like, because it plays against type. I think I really liked it. I just read another book that I would put in a similar category and I'm totally blanking on it. But yeah, just like an incredible, weird, strange life. So. But you knew him.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah, we were like. We were on the track team together for a year.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Historian or Author]

No, I thought it was really good. And then kind of a sim. I mean it was the the mother character was really interesting because she's kind of like a child. That's probably why she ended up in a cult in the first place.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Right? You got your Gideon, you've got supporting your desk, huh?

[Ryan Holiday]

The new book.

[Historian or Author]

Did you read the new one? I've been giving it to people. What's the new one that Notes. Notes to John. No. Do you know the story of this one?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Is this like at the.

[Historian or Author]

So, so her daughter is an alcoholic, which doesn't get mentioned in any of the other books. She drank herself to death and then.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I didn't know that.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, but so she's, as her daughter is struggling with alcoholism, she, Joan Didion starts going to therapy. And obviously her daughter's in therapy. And so the book is like the notes that she would write after the therapy session summarizing what they talked about to her husband.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Oh my God.

[Historian or Author]

And they found that it like neatly. This is her office, like neatly stapled in a pile, like in a drawer in her desk. And so it's on the one hand, like not intended for publication.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Right.

[Historian or Author]

But then also it's Joan Didion. So it clearly is kind of. And so would she have wanted it? Would she. Wouldn't she have wanted it? And then. And then weirdly, it reads like this kind of epistolary novel about this. Like if someone said, okay, this is like a fame. This is a well known person or just an ordinary mother and they're watching their. Their daughter drink themselves to death. And it's a novel told in the form of notes to their spouse about the form. About the conversation they have with the therapist. Be like, well, that's a really interesting concept.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

And so it's actually like really haunting and beautiful. And then because it's Joan Didion, it's. Even her notes are better than most writers.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Historian or Author]

So it's really incredible.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

The Story Bookstore is great.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. You like it? I'll show.

[Historian or Author]

This is amazing. Yes.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

These are all like, different from your, like, home and.

[Historian or Author]

No, no, these are just. There's actually a company called Books by the Foot. And you just buy it by a.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Large winding stairwell in the Atlantic office. And it's filled entirely with books by people who've written for the Atlantic, which is half the great writers in American history.

[Historian or Author]

So I got the idea from Ford's Theater. It has the spinning power of books about Lincoln. So that's what it is.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Okay, cool. Yeah. So it's a similar thing.

[Historian or Author]

That's very cool. Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Can I take one of these home.

[Historian or Author]

For my son to journal?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I just thought it would be a good way for him to learn. He, like, keeps track of his workouts and he, like, trains harder than I do.

[Historian or Author]

Sure.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

So.

[Historian or Author]

And then. Yeah, this is. This is fiction over here. Oh, this is the book I was thinking of. I wouldn't have thought. She would have an interesting life, huh?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I would have.

[Historian or Author]

No idea.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Like, you just think administrator of Harvard, like. Yeah, but she's great.

[Historian or Author]

She came from this kind of like, fancy Virginian family, and her mom was an awful. It's actually very, very well written. It's a great cover. And then she gets drawn into the civil rights movement and it's. Yeah, it's.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Okay. I'm excited to read this.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, of course. This is going to cover the next week. Rich Cohen's written for the Atlantic, I think. Right.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

What's this, a magic bookstore?

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, this is.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Do we have our safe room?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. Exactly. What do you.

[Historian or Author]

What of shoes do you use?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

I. I use. I've been racing in Puma R3s. I just did the last one in Ultra Flies, the Nike Ultra Flies. And then this morning, the Romeros. I've got a little bit of knee pain.

[Historian or Author]

This is where I write.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, cool. This is here.

[Historian or Author]

This where I write.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This is incredible.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This is amazing.

[Historian or Author]

What a good space.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Your own bookstore downstairs.

[Historian or Author]

That was the idea.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

This is your inspiration wall?

[Historian or Author]

No, no, I'm doing a biography on Stockdale right now. So this is the James Stockdale. Yeah, yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Like, one time vice president.

[Historian or Author]

Well, so that's. That's what. So, okay, so he's.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

He is a stoic, Right? Like, he's.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, he gets.

[Ryan Holiday]

He gets.

[Historian or Author]

Well, he gets introduced to stoicism at Stanford. He's. The Navy sends him for a post grad degree in his, like, early 30s, and he.

[Ryan Holiday]

He.

[Historian or Author]

He's walking through the philosophy department where he's not taking classes. And this professor's name is Philip Rhinelander, who had been in the Navy. He sees him and he thinks he's like a professor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

And they're just talking. And then he finds out he's a, you know, in the Navy. And he. And he gives him. Let me see if I have it. Gives him.

[Ryan Holiday]

He gives him this.

[Historian or Author]

I have it somewhere. This edition of Epictetus. I guess I put it somewhere, but gives him a copy of Epictetus. And that's what he's reading in his bunk on the carrier, like, the day that he takes off. And so he famously is testing stoicism in the laboratory.

[Ryan Holiday]

But I've been.

[Historian or Author]

He's like, I mean, so he's born in 23, so. So he's kind of born in this. Like we tend to think of the Vietnam guys as being of a certain generation. But he's like 38 when he gets shot down. So he graduates in 46 from the Naval Academy. So he's technically like a World War II guy. He's in Jimmy Carter's class at the Naval Academy. So he's kind of like in this like elite circles. But he's never the main guy. Like Bill Crow is his. Is his roommate who. So anyways, like one of his classmates goes on to run the CIA. So he's kind of always. But he's never the main guy until he gets shot down in the war. But the crazy thing is, which I haven't gotten to yet because I'm still. Korea hasn't happened in the book where I am. But he, he is, he is in the air the night of the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh really?

[Historian or Author]

And reports that nothing happens.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Uh huh.

[Historian or Author]

So I'm fascinated by this.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That's incredible.

[Historian or Author]

So you spend, you spend seven years as a prisoner of war being tortured to give up your secrets and you have the most explosive secret there could possibly be. That not only is it an explosive secret, but it would make you doubt whether you should be loyal to the country that you are currently giving your life to, not betray.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

And he knew the consequences of the secret he held when he was, he.

[Historian or Author]

Gives his memo, he's like we were shooting at ghosts, there's nothing there. But yeah, I haven't got quite gotten there. So I don't know exactly.

[Ryan Holiday]

But.

[Historian or Author]

But there's this, he has this terrible secret and I'm interested in how he wrestles with that secret in the midst of the, the whole thing. And then his wife is obviously very interesting because she sort of goes to war with the Nixon administration about it.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

And then wait, so he's in prison 65 to 72.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah. So he also. So the idea that he's born, he's born kind of like one of his aunts attends the Lincoln Douglas debates. So like he's of that era.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Historian or Author]

Like it's crazy. So I'm presenting him as this kind of man from the past. And then so he goes in, in 65 when Vietnam is still not the Vietnam, like what's the famous New Yorker piece that kind of blows it open. But Vietnam, he obviously there's problems with it, but it's not the same thing. So he goes in 65, it comes out in 72, like he's this kind of Rip Van Winkle character where he misses all of it. And his war is at 30,000ft, not at. He's not like watching the whole career of Jimi Hendrix. Yes. So when he comes back, his son who was like in middle school, is now at college. Protests against the war. Yeah. And so, yeah. So it's this fascinating arc. And then we like the political thing at the end is this kind of weird story because the reason.

[Ryan Holiday]

He has.

[Historian or Author]

This debt to Perot, because Perot does all this work for the prisoners while they're in there, takes care of their families. He sends the plane that picks them up. So when he says, hey, do you want to be my vice president? He's like, he's duty bound. So he kind of is. And then he gets up there and he figured. Thinks he's asking this philosophical question. Like he was like, who am I? Why am I here? Like he wanted to say, like, I'm not a politician, I'm a whatever. And then we just laugh him off the stage.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

What a summer. So that's the arc of his life.

[Ryan Holiday]

Cool. That's great.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

That's great.

[Historian or Author]

Sweet that you're doing that.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

That's an interesting project.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, we'll see. Maybe it'll work.

[Historian or Author]

That's why I was fascinated by the Buckley book, because it's another book about a knot. Well known person. But it's interesting. Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

One of the things that I loved about getting right about Nissan Kennedy is that I felt like studying their lives made me smarter every day. Just like understanding how they made choices and what they did.

[Historian or Author]

Have you read this guy at all? He's written for the Atlantic. I have not written from the old days. He's one of Emerson's friends. So he is a translator of Epictetus in the 80s, 1860s. And then he raises and leads one of the first black regiments in the Civil War.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow. And he wrote.

[Historian or Author]

He wrote a book about it too, which I forget what it's called, but this is a collection of his. This has probably got some of his Atlantic pieces. Nice. Let's see.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

It's nice to have a history that you can be proud of as a publication.

[Historian or Author]

Because it's not true. All of them. No, no, of course some of them. They published some real shitty people.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Yeah, we published some shitty 1890s.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, like who?

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

We had some severe anti immigration pieces.

[Historian or Author]

Interesting.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Like there was a real kind of spasm of racism in the publication. Like the editor was a. I can't remember exactly what it's called. I can't remember the guy's name, but it was, you know, like.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, like a ghazi or whatever.

[Ryan Holiday]

Basically.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Close the. Close this closet closed Staten Island.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Like, stop letting these smelly people in.

[Ryan Holiday]

Huh? Yeah.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

In fact, there's a famous poem that is like the poem used by anti immigrant crowd that was written by an editor at Dalenick.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

Oh, and then his other thing is he discovers and publishes Emily Dickinson.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Oh, good work.

[Historian or Author]

Yeah, good work.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Does he mention it like the Atlantic.

[Ryan Holiday]

Here.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Atlantic essays, Higginson's. There you go. Atlantic Monthly magazine.

[Ryan Holiday]

Cool. Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

But he's like, that's sort of to me again, the tradition of like the stoics being active and engaged in a way that we don't think of it's.

[Book Editor or Literary Colleague]

Writing career advance by invitation to be among the first regular writers to the newly founded periodical the Atlantic Monthly.

[Ryan Holiday]

There you go. Yeah.

[Historian or Author]

Good stuff. Good stuff.

[Ryan Holiday]

Cool.

[Historian or Author]

Awesome.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, thanks.

[Historian or Author]

I think we just have to take a picture and then you're.

[Ryan Holiday]

Let's do it. I read a lot.

[Historian or Author]

It's sort of my job. You can't write without reading.

[Ryan Holiday]

For almost 15 years now, once a month I send out an email with.

[Historian or Author]

My favorite book recommendations for that month. Books that I've been reading, books that.

[Ryan Holiday]

I've been going through, books that changed my life, that inspired me, that I.

[Historian or Author]

Think connect to what's happening in the world. And you could sign up right [e-mail] reading list.

[Toyota Trucks User or Family Member]

My family owns a 2023 Toyota 4Runner, and honestly, it's my favorite vehicle that I've ever owned. I around town, it's smooth and reliable, but where it really shines is on our trips into the backcountry. We've taken it on backpacking adventures to Colorado and New Mexico, loaded up with gear and never had to think twice about whether it could handle the terrain. That's what Toyota trucks are built for. Off road confidence, rugged durability, and the freedom to explore. Toyota has a long history with the outdoor community, and they're committed to helping more people get out there and experience what nature has to offer. From remote trails to scenic byways, Toyota trucks empowers you to take the detour, ride, roam freely, and discover places that still feel wild and untouched. And they're not just making great trucks. They're working to expand access to adventure so more people can connect with the outdoors and pass that passion on to the next generation. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more at toyota.com trucks adventure-detours that's toyota.com trucks adventure- detours.

[Ryan Holiday]

Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show but not listen to ads, well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you a ad free version of Daily Stoic, calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast completely ad free. No interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for. And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public.

[Historian or Author]

And we're gonna have a bunch of.

[Ryan Holiday]

Exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you wanna remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here, we well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium and we are offering a limited time discount of 20% off your first year. Just go to Dailystoic.com premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.