It’s No Good Without This | Epicurus’ Secret to the Good Life

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast

Episode: It’s No Good Without This | Epicurus’ Secret to the Good Life
Host: Ryan Holiday
Date: June 9, 2026

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Overview

This episode of The Daily Stoic explores the often-misunderstood relationship between Stoicism and Epicureanism, focusing especially on Epicurus’ ideas of virtue, pleasure, and the good life. Host Ryan Holiday discusses how even the Stoics, especially Seneca, leaned on Epicurean wisdom, and shares an extended reading and reflection on Epicurus’ famous Letter to Menoeceus. The episode unpacks the core insight: the genuinely good life isn’t about indulgence or accumulation, but about living with integrity, virtue, and prudent enjoyment of simple pleasures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The High Cost of Compromise

• Seneca as a Cautionary Example:
  • Host Ryan Holiday notes how Seneca gained wealth and power through compromise, but lost his integrity and, ultimately, his peace—and life.
  • Quote:
    • "We forget this timeless wisdom and these cautionary tales at our peril. It will not turn out differently for us. We will not be the exception." (01:25)
  • Central message: Achieving external success by compromising your values is never worth the price.

Stoics vs. Epicureans: More Similar Than We Think

• Old Rivalries & Their True Nature:
  • Holiday recounts how ancient Stoics and Epicureans were rivals, sometimes to a ridiculous degree (such as Diotimus forging letters to slander Epicurus).
  • He points out that this rivalry masked deeper philosophical similarities:
    • The Epicureans weren’t merely hedonists.
    • Stoics weren’t ascetics for punishment’s sake.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "The Stoics and the Epicureans were closer than one might imagine...they weren’t these pleasure-loving hedonists or pleasure-hating gluttons for punishment." (02:37)
  • Seneca often quoted Epicurus, saying, "I read like a spy in the enemy’s camp... I'll quote even a bad author if the line is good." (02:56)

Epicurus’ Letter to Menoeceus: The Secret to the Good Life

• Reading & Reflection (Extended Segment, 04:31–20:53):
  • Philosophy for All Ages:
    • Begin studying philosophy young and continue into old age:
      • “Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul.” (04:31)
    • Pursuit of wisdom is akin to the pursuit of happiness: always relevant.
  • Understanding Death & The Fear of It:
    • Death is nothing to fear; it is simply the end of sensation.
    • "Become accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us. For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation..." (05:50)
    • The wise neither fear nor yearn for death, but seek to make the most of life’s moments.
  • Pleasure, Selectivity, and Virtue:
    • Not all pleasures are equal; not all pains must be avoided.
    • "For we recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us... But sometimes we pass over many pleasures when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them." (14:28)
    • The best pleasures are simple: bread and water, when truly needed, are more enjoyable than extravagant luxury.
    • “Those have the sweetest pleasure in luxury who least need it… plain savors bring us a pleasure equal to a luxurious diet, when all the pain due to want is removed.” (15:25)
    • Prudence—wise judgment over desires and impulses—is the core of a pleasant life.
    • "For indeed, who think you is a better man than he who holds reverent opinions concerning the gods and is at all times free from fear of death and has reasoned out the end ordained by nature..." (17:50)
  • Pleasure and Virtue Are Intertwined:
    • Living “pleasantly” is impossible without prudence, honor, and justice; these virtues are inseparable from true happiness.
    • "It is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice without living pleasantly." (16:56)
  • Our Relationship with Fortune & Control:
    • Most events are out of our control, arriving by necessity, chance, or our own action.
    • The wise person focuses on what they can control and is less disturbed by fate or destiny.

Timeless Takeaways & Reflections

• Practical Wisdom:
  • Living naturally, enjoying simple things, and acting in accordance with virtue lead to genuine pleasure and peace of mind.
  • Simplicity, modesty, and gratitude replace endless craving.
• Epicurus’ Core Message (paraphrased):
  • Meditate on these teachings, and you shall “live like a God among men... for a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like a mortal being.” (20:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ryan Holiday:

  • "Do not lie to yourself. Do not trade your soul away, because once it’s gone, you cannot get it back. No amount of power or success will be worth it. No earthly reward is worth your values or your ability to look yourself in the mirror." (01:48)

• Epicurus (read on-air):

  • "Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul." (04:31)
  • "Become accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us... because it takes away the craving for immortality." (06:00)
  • "Not every pleasure is to be chosen, even as every pain also is an evil. Yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided... by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages, we must form our judgment on all these matters." (14:28)
  • "For indeed, who think you is a better man than he who holds reverent opinions concerning the gods, and is at all times free from fear of death, and has reasoned out the end ordained by nature." (17:50)
  • "Meditate, therefore, on these things, and things akin to them, night and day... and never shall you be disturbed, waking or asleep, but you shall live like a God among men." (20:23)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Seneca’s Example and the Cost of Compromise: 00:43–02:05
• Stoicism vs. Epicureanism – Rivalry and Overlaps: 02:05–04:31
• Epicurus’ Letter to Menoeceus (Reading & Key Ideas): 04:31–20:53
  • Philosophy and Happiness: 04:31–06:00
  • Death and Fear: 06:00–08:00
  • Desires and Simple Pleasures: 14:28–16:30
  • Virtue and Happiness Are Inseparable: 16:30–20:00
  • Final Exhortation to Live Like a God Among Men: 20:00–20:53

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Conclusion

Through a thoughtful juxtaposition of Stoic and Epicurean thought, Ryan Holiday reinforces that the good life is grounded in virtue, simple pleasures, and the judicious use of reason—not in unchecked ambition or unthinking indulgence. By understanding our relationship with pleasure and pain, desire and necessity, as well as our own mortality and what is within our control, we can lead lives of profound contentment and integrity.

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Further Reading Recommended by Host:

• The Art of Living (Penguin Classics) – Collection of Epicurus’ writings and fragments.
• Lives of the Stoics – Holiday’s book, for deeper context on figures like Seneca and Thrasia.

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A beautifully concise, practical episode for anyone seeking guidance on living well—offering clarity on the oft-misunderstood Epicurean contribution to virtue and pleasure amidst life’s complexities.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world.

[B]

Hey there.

[A]

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You can see me in Australia and New Zealand in October. In August, I'm mixing my months up here, but in August, you can see

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[A]

It's no good without this. Maybe it'll help you get ahead. Maybe it will help you get rich. Maybe it will help you get closer to power, help you keep power. As we see with Seneca, compromises can pay off, but they come at a high cost. Seneca was more pragmatic, more ambitious, more willing to turn a blind eye than

[C]

his fellow Stoics, like Thrasia, who I profile in Lives of the Stoics.

[A]

And this made him rich, it made him powerful. But he paid for it with his integrity and his peace. And in the end, he paid for it with his life. For what is a man profited goes one of the most haunting questions in the book of Matthew. He shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul. We forget this timeless wisdom and these cautionary tales at our peril. It will not turn out differently for us. We will not be the exception. Do not lie to yourself. Do not trade your soul away, because once it's gone, you cannot get it back. No amount of power or success will be worth it. No earthly reward is worth your values or your ability to look yourself in the mirror.

[C]

Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast. In the old days, in the. In the ancient days, the Epicureans and the Stoics were rivals. They hated each other. In fact, there's one Stoic I talk about in Lives of the Stoics, this guy named Diotimus, who so hated Epicurus that he writes this series of letters that are purportedly to be by Epicurus, that are, in fact, forgeries to kind of frame the Epicureans as these hedonists, as these liars, as these, you know, bad influences. None of it was true. This is obviously a betrayal of Stoicism, but I think it just highlights the. The rivalry that was long believed to exist between these two major philosophical schools. In some ways, kind of the narcissism of small differences, because the Stoics and the Epicureans were closer than one might imagine. The Epicureans weren't these pleasure loving hedonists and the Stoics weren't these pleasure hating gluttons for punishments. Not by any means, as we are going to talk about, as you are going to see in today's episode. But I think it's worth pointing out, you know, who does Seneca quote more than any other philosopher? It's Epicurus. He quotes his rivals. He says, because I read like a spy in the enemy's camp, he said, I'll quote even a bad author if the line is good. Well, what we're going to be doing today is quoting a whole letter, an actual letter, not a fraudulent one from Epicurus himself. This is Epicurus's letter to Manassius. It's a fascinating letter, one I think you absolutely should listen to. It's sort of laying out his understanding of both ethics and the aesthetic life. How one finds pleasure not in sex or drugs, rock and roll or whatever, but in virtue itself. And it's never a bad time to hear someone speak as eloquently of virtue and the pleasures of the good life as Epicurus does in this letter. Enjoy. And if you want to read some more Epicurus, there is a great book called the Art of Living, which is from Penguin Classics. It's a collection of Epicurus writings and his fragments. I used it as a source and stillness is the key. And I think you will like that. I would check that out and carry the painted porch. I will link to it in today's episode.

[D]

Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul. And the man who says that the age for philosophy has either not yet come or has gone by, is like the man who says that the age for happiness is not yet come to him, or has passed away. Wherefore both when young and old, a man must study philosophy, that as he grows old he may be young in blessings through the grateful recollection of what has been, and that in youth he may be old as well, since he will know no fear of what is to come. We must then meditate on the things that make our happiness, seeing that when that is with us, we have all, but when it is absent, we do all to win it. The things that are used increasingly to commend to you these do in practice, considering them to be the first principles of the good life. First of all believe that God is a being, immortal and blessed, even as the common idea of a God is engraved on men's minds. And do not assign to him anything alien to his immortality or ill suited to his blessedness, but believe about him everything that can uphold his blessedness and immortality. For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision, but they are not such as the many believe them to be, for indeed they do not consistently represent them as they believe them to be. And the impious man is not he who denies the gods of the many, but he who attaches to the gods the beliefs of the many. For the statements of the many about the gods are not conceptions derived from sensation, but false suppositions, according to which the greatest misfortunes befall the wicked, and the greatest blessings the good, by the gift of the gods. For men, being accustomed always to their own virtues, welcome those like themselves, but regard all that is not of their nature as alien, become accustomed to the belief that death is nothing to us. For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation and therefore a right. Understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not because it adds to it an infinite span of time, but because it takes away the craving for immortality. For there is nothing terrible in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living. So that the man speaks but idly, who says that he fears death not because it will be painful when it comes, but but because it is painful in anticipation. For that which gives no trouble when it comes is but an empty pain in anticipation. So death, the most terrifying of ills, is nothing to us, since so long as we exist, death is not with us. But when death comes, then we do not exist. It does not then concern either the living or the dead, since the former it is not, and the latter are no more. But the many at one moment shun death as the greatest of evils, at another yearn for it as a respite from the evils of life. But the wise man neither seeks to escape life, nor fears the cessation of life. For neither does life offend him, nor does the absence of life seem to be any evil. And just as with food, he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant. And he who counsels the young man to live well, but the old man to make a good end is foolish, not merely because of the desirability of life, but also because it is the same training which teaches to live well and to die well. Yet much worse still is the man who says, it is good not to be born, but once born, make haste to pass the gates of death. For if he says this from conviction, why does he not pass away out of life? For it is open to him to do so, if he had firmly made up his mind to this. But if he speaks in jest, his words are idle among men who cannot receive them. We must then bear in mind that the future is neither ours, nor, nor yet wholly not ours, so that we may not altogether expect it as sure to come, nor abandon hope of it, as if it will certainly not come. We must consider that of desires some are natural, others vain and of the natural, some are necessary, and others merely natural and of the necessary some are necessary for happiness, others for the repose of the body, and others for very life. The right understanding of these facts enables us to refer all choice and avoidance to the health of the body and the soul's freedom. From Distur Epicurus letter to mnesis2of2bants since this is the aim of the life of blessedness, for it is to obtain this end that we always act, namely, to avoid pain and fear. And when this is once secured for us all the tempest of the soul is dispersed, since the living creature has not to wander, as though in search of something that is missing, and to look for some other thing by which he can fulfill the good of the soul and the good of the body. For it is then that we have need of pleasure when we feel pain owing to the absence of pleasure. But when we do not feel pain, we no longer need pleasure, and for this cause we will call pleasure the beginning and end of the blessed life. For we recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good.

[B]

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[D]

and since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this reason we do not choose every pleasure. But sometimes we pass over many pleasures when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them. And similarly, we think many pains better than pleasures. Since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then, because of its natural kinship to us, is good. Yet not every pleasure is to be chosen, even as every pain also is an evil. Yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided. Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages, we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good, on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good. And again, independence of desire. We think a great good, not that we may at all times enjoy but a few things, but that if we do not possess many, we may enjoy the few in the genuine persuasion that those have the sweetest pleasure in luxury who least need it, and that all that is natural is easy to be obtained, but that which is superfluous is hard, and so plain savors bring us a pleasure equal to a luxurious diet, when all the pain due to want is removed, and bread and water produce the highest pleasure, when one who needs them puts them to his lips. To grow accustomed, therefore, to simple and not luxurious diet gives us health to the full, and makes a man alert for for the needful employments of life. And when after long intervals we approach luxuries, disposes us better towards them, and fits us to be fearless of fortune. When, therefore, we maintain that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of profligates and those that consist in sensuality, as is supposed by some who are either ignorant or disagree with us, or do not understand, but freedom from pain in the body and from trouble in the mind. For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit of all. This the beginning in the greatest good is prudence. Wherefore prudence is a more precious thing even than philosophy. For from prudence are sprung all the other virtues. And it teaches us that it is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, nor again to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice without living pleasantly. For the virtues are by nature bound up with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them. For indeed, who think you is a better man than he who holds reverent opinions concerning the gods, and is at all times free from fear of death, and has reasoned out the end ordained by nature. He understands that the limit of good things is easy to fulfil and easy to attain, whereas the course of ills is either short in time or slight in pain. He laughs at destiny, whom some have introduced as the mistress of all things. He thinks that with us lies the chief power in determining events, some of which happen by necessity, and some by chance and some are within our control. For while necessity cannot be called to account, he sees that chance is inconstant but that which is in our control is subject to no master and to it are naturally attached praise and blame for indeed it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers. For the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity that knows no placation. As to chance, he does not regard it as a God, as most men do for in a God's acts there is no disorder, nor as an uncertain cause of all things. For he does not believe that good and evil are given by chance to man for the framing of a blessed life, but that opportunities for great good and great evil are afforded by it. He therefore thinks it better to be unfortunate in reasonable action than to prosper in unreason. For it is better in a man's actions that what is well chosen should fail, rather than that what is ill chosen should be successful, owing to chance. Meditate, therefore, on these things, and things akin to them, night and day, by yourself, and with a companion like to yourself and never shall you be disturbed, waking or asleep, but you shall live like a God among men. For a man who lives among immortal blessings is not like to a mortal being.

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