Jaimie Alexander: “I Was Asked If I Wanted to Live or Die”

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Jaimie Alexander: “I Was Asked If I Wanted to Live or Die”
Date: January 24, 2026
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guest: Jaimie Alexander (Actress, Marvel’s “Lady Sif,” NBC’s “Blindspot”)

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Episode Overview

In this deeply candid and moving episode, Ryan Holiday sits down with actress Jaimie Alexander to explore her journey through depression, addiction, a near-death experience, sobriety, and the critical role Stoicism has played in her recovery. Jaimie shares her personal story of resilience, from the outside glamour of Hollywood to the hidden turmoil within, culminating in a life-altering medical crisis that forced her to choose between life and death. Their conversation traverses vulnerability, accountability, the wisdom of Stoic philosophy, and the healing found in service to others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Learning to Swim, Literally and Metaphorically

[05:06 – 08:20]

• Jaimie reveals she only recently learned to swim, a metaphor for confronting lifelong fears.
• She describes her history of avoiding what scared her and choosing, in sobriety, to chase those fears instead—"What if I start doing the stuff that terrifies me?" ([05:30], Jaimie)
• Emphasizes the humbling value of embracing being a beginner as an adult, and how it is "good for me" to take hits to her ego ([07:56], Jaimie).

2. Struggles with Addiction and High-Functioning Alcoholism

[08:20 – 13:56]

• Jaimie details her physically demanding stunts on set and how injuries led to self-medication with alcohol.
• Discloses that “no one knew” the extent of her drinking as she was “so high functioning.”
• Her story includes self-imposed pressure to protect and accommodate others, often at her own expense: “I was always worried about being an inconvenience” ([10:09], Jaimie).

3. The Near-Death Experience: “Do You Want to Stay or Do You Want to Go?”

[08:53 – 29:37]

• Jaimie’s body finally failed her—a ruptured appendix leading to sepsis.
• She recounts an out-of-body experience, hearing an inner voice ask: “Do you want to stay or do you want to go?”

  "I had a white light moment... I heard a voice, and it said, 'Do you want to stay or do you want to go?'... My first thought was, I remember you." ([23:41], Jaimie)

• Making the choice to stay, she felt an immediate lifting of fear and overwhelming sense of peace and connection.
• This experience became the turning point for her sobriety, reinforced by a doctor’s warning: “If you had drank one or two days before this, you would be dead.” ([29:37], Jaimie)

4. The Hard Work of Recovery and the Power of Asking for Help

[32:41 – 35:05]

• Jaimie describes the real challenge began after her hospital experience.
• Emphasizes, “For me to ask somebody for help equaled failure... You can't even walk. Once you're out of the wheelchair, you need to ask for help.” ([33:17], Jaimie)

5. Finding Stoicism Through Sobriety

[35:05 – 41:32]

• Jaimie encountered Stoic philosophy during her recovery, connecting especially with Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus.
• Quoting Jung’s "I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become," she illustrates how Stoicism reinforced accountability and focus on how to respond to life, not just its circumstances ([38:16], Jaimie).
• She attributes her ability to reframe adversity as opportunity thanks to Stoicism:

  "I get out, and I’m almost eight years sober now... That was by far the best thing that ever happened to me." ([35:44], Jaimie)

6. Purpose, Service, and Fear

[41:32 – 43:50]

• Jaimie explains how being of service—helping others, staying curious—eradicates fear and self-obsession.
• Ties in the Stoic idea of indifference—not apathy, but flexibility and acceptance of circumstances ([50:17], Ryan).

7. Recovery, Powerlessness, and Higher Power

[51:07 – 57:43]

• Stoic ideas of control closely align with the 12-step recovery principle:

  "You are not the higher power... Can you see it as a weight off your shoulders? All I have to focus on is how I respond to whatever is in front of me." ([51:26], Jaimie)

• Importance of letting go of the need to control all outcomes and trusting time-tested frameworks (12-step, Stoicism, religion) over fallible instinct.

8. Daily Stoic Practices

[58:08 – 61:10]

• Jaimie shares her daily routine: reading from 'The Daily Stoic,' making gratitude lists, and intention cards to ground herself.
• Praises modern adaption of Stoic philosophy:

  "You’ve made it so much more digestible for the modern person." ([58:14], Jaimie)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Confronting Fear:

  "I am living on borrowed time. If life were fair, I would be dead... I had an incident back in 2018 where I was given a choice, like, do you want to stay or do you want to go?"
  — Jaimie Alexander [08:20]

• On Surrender and Acceptance:

  "Immediately when I made that choice [to stay], it said, then you can never drink again... there’s a name for my darkness that I can choose to fix."
  — Jaimie Alexander [25:45]

• On Being of Service:

  "I'm never afraid when I'm being useful, and I'm never afraid when I'm being of service. I actually don't, because I'm not thinking about myself when I'm being useful or being of service."
  — Jaimie Alexander [40:56]

• On Stoicism and Recovery:

  "This type of philosophy is going to help me in times when I cannot see straight and in times where I'm having a really rough time."
  — Jaimie Alexander [35:44]

• On Curiosity Over Judgment:

  "Just show up. Put one foot in front of the other and be curious... When I fall into judgment of anyone other than myself, I go, no, no, no, wait a second. I'm actually gonna be curious."
  — Jaimie Alexander [37:19]

• On the Limits of Control:

  "You are not the center of the universe. Thank God."
  — Jaimie Alexander [51:07]

• On Letting Go of Mask and Expectation:

  "The freedom of letting go of the mask that I have not intentionally created, but that I notice and I’m aware of that I’ve created. Holy shit. That kind of freedom..."
  — Jaimie Alexander [39:19]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:06] – Jaimie learns to swim; dealing with fear
• [08:20] – Discussion of physical demands and alcoholism
• [13:39] – The secret life of addiction and close call with sobriety
• [23:41] – The near-death/“white light” moment
• [29:37] – Medical aftermath and doctor’s warning
• [33:17] – The challenge of asking for help
• [35:05] – Discovering Stoicism and accountability
• [38:16] – On not being defined by trauma (Jung quote)
• [41:32] – Service, curiosity, and overcoming fear
• [50:17] – Difference between Stoic indifference and apathy
• [51:26] – Surrendering control and the weight it lifts
• [58:08] – Daily practices with Stoicism and gratitude

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Closing Reflections

This episode is a powerful testament to the hidden struggles behind public success, the grit it takes to rebuild, and how ancient philosophy can guide modern lives—especially in the darkest moments. Jaimie Alexander’s vulnerability and wisdom offer hope for anyone grappling with fear, purpose, or recovery. The conversation is suffused with grace, humor, humility, and a shared belief that curiosity, accountability, and service open up possibilities far beyond what we think we can control.

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Recommended for listeners searching for:

• Real stories of addiction and recovery
• Modern applications of Stoicism
• The intersection of spirituality and mental health
• Insight into the inner lives of public figures
• The power of vulnerability and resilience

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Follow Jaimie Alexander:
Instagram: @jaimiealexander
Substack: “In the Hallway”

Follow Ryan Holiday:
DailyStoic.com

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Transcript

[Jamie Alexander]

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[Ryan Holiday]

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice and wisdom into the real world. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. By the by the time you are listening to this, I think it's coming out on Saturday, we may all be frozen solid here in Texas. People are freaking out. It's not supposed to be that cold. But Texas, it doesn't get that cold here that often. So they really freak out. They close all the roads. The power grid is taxed. That is a real problem. Texas has its own power grid for some weird political reason, and so it can't, I think, as easily take power from other parts of the country that aren't undergoing weather things. That's why we had in 2021 this crazy freeze. It's like nine degrees out. I remember we lost power in the middle of it. I had to go sleep in my kid's room in their bed so they, they literally could stay alive. I don't think it's supposed to be that serious, but there is a lot going on. We're doing a dinner at the Painted Porch for people who bought a bunch of copies of Wisdom. It's the philosopher's dinner that we do for the launches of all of them. We've been looking forward to it for a long time. It's hard to justify canceling a thing because here it's 30 degrees when that's a normal temperature for this time of year all over the country. So not sure exactly what's going to happen, but people have been freaking out about it. Should we move it? Should we cancel it? What should we do? I was like this or that and I text her. She posted on Instagram. I said I'm not going to worry about it, but somebody probably should. Which to me is that's what delegation is about. I'm not saying it's not worth thinking about. It is worth thinking about. It's just not worth me thinking about. Because one, I don't know anything about it. I'm not A logistics and planning person. But also I have other things I'm supposed to be thinking about that if I don't think about, don't get thought about. What does that have to do with today's episode? Nothing. Just what's going on here. Over the years, I've heard from tons of people. Actually, I just heard from someone yesterday that got introduced to stoicism in recovery. The Daily Stoic and ideas from the Stoics have been passed around the 12 step community for many, many years. And in fact, I think some of the original founders of Alcoholics Anonymous quoted the Stoics from time to time. Certainly the serenity prayers got some real overlap with the sto. But it's been amazing to hear people talk about how philosophy helped them get sober, stay sober, how to live a good life, how to rebuild their life after they blew up their life, or just however alcoholism can ravage families and friend groups and communities. And recently someone who I'm certain you have seen on TV or at the movie theater talked to me about just that. That's today's guest, the actress Jamie Alexander. We were actually connected by a mutual friend who told me that Jamie read the Daily Stoic every single day. And when I heard more about her story, she had to come on the podcast. So she did. When she was here in Austin. Jamie's path to stoicism and sobriety was actually caused by this crazy near death experience which she tells the story of in today's episode. I think this is a really powerful conversation. I think you're going to like it. And it just goes to show what someone's life looks like on the outside, at the peak of their career, walking red carpets, landing huge roles, being famous, being a hero to little girls. But their inner world can be falling apart. They could be really going through something. They could be at rock bottom. And Jamie has been through a lot, but she's come out of it stronger. And I think she's got a really interesting perspective that you're going to get a lot out of. As I said, you've almost certainly seen a movie or a TV show with Jamie in it. She's part of the Marvel Universe. She was Lady Sif in the Thor movies. She's been on agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. kyle XY. She was the star of the NBC series Blindspot, to name a few. You can follow Jamie Jamie on Instagram. Amialexander J A I M I E I've spelled Jamie many, many ways over the years. As an author. People go, it's Jamie Spelled like you think. It's never like you think. Hers is spelled J, A, I, M, I, E. Alexander. And you can also subscribe to her substack, which is great in the hallway. I'll link to that in today's show notes. Let's just get into this episode. So you just learned how to swim?

[Jamie Alexander]

I did.

[Ryan Holiday]

Like, you didn't know your whole life or you just weren't good at it?

[Jamie Alexander]

I could tread water, but my mother didn't know how to swim, so I never learned. She didn't teach me to be afraid of the water. It's just I grew up being afraid of it. And so, yeah, if you don't know.

[Ryan Holiday]

How to swim, you're going to be a little afraid.

[Jamie Alexander]

Well, I'm literally like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable. Like, the way water was. I should say not is, but was my Achilles. So the journey of how I got to learn is pretty interesting.

[Ryan Holiday]

Tell me.

[Jamie Alexander]

Well, the thing is, you know, about six weeks ago, I found myself in a kind of a heavy depression, and I've gone in and out of that most of my life. I didn't know what to call it, obviously, but now, you know, I've been sober for almost eight years, and I just. I've gotten to know myself quite well. And so I thought, what is this? Like, why is this happening? And I thought, you know, I don't feel useful. That's why I don't feel like I have a purpose. And so my history had been, well, let's go find it outside, somewhere outside of myself. Let's. Let's go do this and be the best at that and do this crazy thing, and everybody expects you to do, you know, these crazy physical stunts. And. And then I thought, like, what if I start doing the stuff that terrifies me? And. And, look, this isn't like jumping off a building. I've done that. But this isn't that. It's more just like, people have fun doing this, and yet I'm scared of it. So I want to get past what's it all about? What's it all about? And so I asked a friend of mine who's done some Ironman competitions and triathlons, I said, if I found a pool in New York, would you teach me like, once a week?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And he said, yeah. And I was like, oh, gosh, now I have an accountability partner. And so I went to my friend's pool, who she was so lovely, to introduce me to her doorman and all this stuff, and they let me swim there. Mind you, it's a 40 foot pull. It's not very long. So this is like, perfect for somebody like me to learn. And it turns out I'm actually physically built like a swimmer, and I'm really good at it compared to what I thought. And I started to have so much fun right away because it wasn't about winning, it wasn't about being great at it or anything. It was just like, hey, maybe this is one of those things I could use to help somebody else. And so my goal is to eventually, maybe six months to a year from now, compete for charity.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh.

[Jamie Alexander]

So that is the goal that I've set for myself.

[Ryan Holiday]

It can be hard to go back and learn things that, like, you should be good at.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Do you know what I mean? Like, as an adult, we were like, if you're like, hey, I want to figure out theoretical physics, you know? You know, people are like, oh, okay, I'm sure that's hard. But it's hard when you're like, if. I don't know, if you don't know how to ride a bike or you don't know how to swim or to go back and be a beginner at something that, like most of the beginners at our children, like, you think about someone who's like, maybe they didn't learn to read or they really struggled in school to then go back and be like, oh, no, I have to do like fifth grade math. That's hard to do.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. It's a big hit to the ego. And what I've learned about myself is those big hits to my ego are great.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Jamie Alexander]

They're good for me.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. To be bad at something is good. It's humbling and kind of immersive. To go do a thing for, not. Not just like, hey, I'm bad at it. That's why I don't do it. But to do it because you're bad at it.

[Jamie Alexander]

Right. But also, like, it. It helps me get rid of my own fear, like this, this rumination that I always have. You're not good enough. You're not this, you're not that. It's like, okay, you know what? Like, F you. Because, like, I. I've had enough of that in my life. And I just thought, this is my life, you know, Like, I. I am living on borrowed time. If life were fair, I would be dead. I wouldn't be here. I had an incident back in 2018 where I was given a choice, like, do you want to stay or do you want to go? What happened when you really want to know.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Jamie Alexander]

So I had been working on a series that was very physically demanding for a while, and I had gotten into the habit of drinking myself to sleep. I was just always in pain. I, you know, dislocated shoulder, broken nose, like, you name it. Like, I. According to my orthopedic surgeon, who happens to be the head of NYU Sports Medicine, I've had more injuries than a pro footballer. And he has a good sense of humor, but he wasn't joking. So I was like, thanks.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, I was reading about it. It seems like. I think people think acting must be sort of nice and cushy, but you seem like you get hurt a lot.

[Jamie Alexander]

Me specifically?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

I don't know what that says about me. I think I'm a little bit of a daredevil. But, you know, there was people pleasing in that because I was like, if I do the stunt, then we get to go home early, which means my entire crew gets to go see their families. And that was something I took very personally. Like, I took responsibility for everybody's wellbeing on my set, which to a degree is nice. It's kind to respect other people's time and. Yes, so.

[Ryan Holiday]

So you're saying there were things where you were like, you didn't feel good about it, or you felt like it wasn't being done the right way, or you didn't maybe understand, but you didn't want to. Kind of like, we're talking about the swimming. You don't want to be like, ah, I need more instruction, or, let's do it this different way, because that would be inconvenient.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes. I was always worried about being an inconvenience to people. But that said, I am quite skilled at a lot of the stunt work I was doing. I'm currently not doing any right now. Not on purpose anyway. But I was a high school wrestler. I had a big background in sports and I knew how to do the things I was doing. It's just when you do too much of something for too long, it's too much and your body can't. At some point is gonna tell you stop or we're gonna make you stop. And that's what happened to me. And I remember this so vividly. Like, I would. I dislocated my shoulder and it went right back in. I've literally been so lucky with some of the injuries I've had. And I just looked at it and I was like, dang it, I'm right handed. Like, how am I gonna do this fight sequence? And same thing When I broke my nose, I went to the hospital, got the CT scan and came back to set and started sword fighting again with like a kind of a screwed up face. And it's just I wouldn't quit. Like, I was like, no, you know, I'm responsible for this. And so I just remember that, you know, even though I had all this swelling and I had pain, I wouldn't even take Advil or Tylenol, but I would drink an entire bottle of bourbon at night to fall asleep.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

So my wiring had gotten so screwed up over my life. It was my magic potion. It was my best friend, you know, I could do anything as long as I had a little of that in my system or a lot. Nobody around me knew I was so high functioning in that sense. I mean, the amount of effort it must have taken for me to hide this from everybody. No wonder I had an organ explode.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, you know. Wait, so what happened?

[Jamie Alexander]

So it was kind of like four days in the making. This like, beginning of the end is kind of how I refer to it. I had met this guy, really nice guy who happened to be sober. And I just thought, oh, okay, cool. I don't know, he doesn't drink. But I remember when I met him on our first date, I thought to myself, I wish I could do that. Like, I had a thought. And I was about 7 or 8 measuring shots full of bourbon before I even got there and proceeded to order another double bourbon while he ordered, I think an Arnold Palmer. And he was so relaxed and comfortable with himself. And I felt like I was gonna explode outta my skin. I just felt so weird, you know? And so we had that date and I just remember it was like, click something. It's like I started hearing a whisper.

[Ryan Holiday]

Of like, that you could be a person.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah, I could. And I would be okay. And we stayed in touch a little bit. I had to work a lot, so I didn't see him for a while. And then one Saturday he was like, hey, do you want to come with me? Little drive upstate. I'm looking at properties. He's like, don't take this weirdly, you know, he's like, I'm not asking to like move in with you or anything. He's like, I just. That's what my weekend's going to entail and I'd like to see you. And so I said, sure, like a day trip. That's fun. And the night before, I had gotten obliterated to fall asleep because I knew I had to be up early to get in his car to go upstate. So I get in the car, and he gives me this, like, really heavy, like, green smoothie full of kale and all this other stuff. And I was like, oh, thanks. I was like, if I drink half of this, I'm going to literally ruin your car. So we go upstate, and a snowstorm that was predicted to be very mild ended up being, like, a blizzard, and we got stuck. And so he's like, look, I really can't try to drive back down right now. He's like, if you're comfortable. He's like, I'd really like to just rent a place and stay the night. And he's like, with more than one bedroom, like, it's not, you know, I'm not trying to, you know, make a pass or anything. And so I was like, oh, sure. Not thinking how hard it was going to be for me to not drink.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right. Because your sort of secret life is intersecting with your. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And I didn't bring a flask, and I always had a flask. I mean, I say these things out loud, and I think I'm talking about someone else. And I'm like, no, that's me. That was me. So get in the car. We go upstate. Blizzard hits. We rent an Airbnb. I realize very quickly that there's no alcohol in there.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

I am, like, the most good. If somebody, like, mischarges me on a grocery bill, even 10 cents, I go back to the grocery store and give them the dime. I can't. I can't not do that. And I've always been that way. So the thought that I would have stolen someone else's alcohol so that I could feel better really did not make me feel very good about myself. I tore that place apart. I looked everywhere while trying to hide from him that I was, like, losing my shit because he didn't know that I had this battle. I didn't really even know.

[Ryan Holiday]

Were you going, would you go through literal withdrawals if you didn't do it? Or you were just like, no. This is, like, how I sort of deal with, well, anxiety and stress. Like, I'm just wondering how bad it was.

[Jamie Alexander]

I, at the time, did not know if I would because I had never tried.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Jamie Alexander]

So I. I mean, there were times where, you know, over the years, I'd train for something and I would stop drinking for a while, but I think that was well before I crossed the line into alcoholism.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

So I was very shaky, so I. We went to bed. A lot of crazy stuff happened. The power went out. And I was like, I am in literal hell. And he was like, maybe I could do some Reiki or do you want to meditate with me? And I was like, where's the gun? Like, you know, I just want to like turn my brain off. And we ended up doing some Reiki. He did some Reiki. And I was like, oh, this is quite nice, you know. But I was like, oh, sober people. And then the next day, weather cleared up, you know, Ended up very carefully driving back down to Brooklyn where I lived. Went in my apartment, went to pour a drink, and I couldn't drink it. It was the most bizarre. Like I would drink even if I had pneumonia. That's a true story. I had pneumonia and I drank anyway. When I hurt my spine back in 2012, there was a co star that ended up bringing small bottles of alcohol into the hospital. I mean, this is not new. This is not new for me. I didn't know all this until I did the work in a 12 step program. But so I couldn't drink it. And I was like, you gotta go to bed, it's late. You have to be up at 4am for work. Just. Just go to bed, you know. And I left it. I mean, I left the giant bourbon straight, no ice on the counter. And I, I. Cause I just thought, well, I'll drink it tomorrow or something. I go to bed, I wake up, make my coffee, go to work, and I am so shaky, I don't feel good. And I just think you didn't sleep, you know, you didn't sleep enough. And I started eating so much junk. I mean, you would have been like, are you insane? Like Nutello covered waffles. I think I even got the waffle truck to come to work. I had ice cream and all these things that I was like, I'm gonna throw up if I keep doing this because I have some stunts I have to do and. But I couldn't not have it. And I just kept getting shakier and shakier. And that night I went home, tried to train, and my trainer was like, stop. She's like, you don't look okay. You're losing your balance. You're white as a ghost. She's like, maybe you just need to go to bed, you know, Again, unaware of my alcoholism. And so I was like, oh, all right, cool, you know, oops. And I looked in the mirror and I did look kind of strange. But that wasn't weird for back then because again, my body was being torn apart by that show. You know, I was having I had to struggle with a lot of chemical burns on my skin from the fake tattoos. There's a lot of things that maybe one day, very respectfully, I will talk about, but right now, I don't feel is the time for that. But I had a lot of stuff going on. So when I look in the mirror and I'm black under my eyes and I'm white as a ghost, that's not that crazy, you know?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, part of it is just you're disassociated from what's happening outside and what's happening inside. That's kind of the whole point is, like, you can get to a place where you just don't have to feel stuff or think about stuff in the sense that it's, like, working. That's what it's doing. That's the technology of it, so you don't have to do that stuff.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah, very effective. Yeah, very effective. You know, So I stopped the workout. You know, I went back to the bourbon that was sitting on the counter. I remember checking it out because it wasn't fresh, and, like, pouring another one, and it literally felt like something was pulling the glass out of my hand. It was the weirdest. It actually scared me. Like, it's like I could feel something being like, do not drink this. And I was like, again, not my normal. Like, I was, like, the opposite of normal. Now that's three days without this. And I'm feeling very shaky, and I'm kind of so dizzy that I can't, you know, it was not good. So I just said, just. Just go to bed. Just go to bed. There's something in me that was like, just go to bed. And I went to sleep. Could not sleep that night. I was awake all night. I sleep with the covers, like, up to my chin, like a little. Like a little, tiny, little, you know. Yeah, cat or something. And. And I did. I just pulled them up. And I remember thinking, like, please, please, please, I need to fall. Asle. There was just something in me that was like, do not go back in the living room to the bar cart and get that stuff. Don't do it. And I went to sleep somehow, and I woke up, and I felt better. I wonder if it was like my soul felt better. Like I was doing something that, you know, I was like. I don't think I knew that I was doing maybe the hardest thing I've ever done, but I had a really weird stomachache, and I just thought, oh, you ate all that crap yesterday. You can't do that today, you know? Again, really ignoring, like, hey, you know, you're not really one to get stomachaches, right? But I just thought, well, yeah, that makes sense. I ate a bunch of crap. And, you know, so I go to work and we're filming in Manhattan, and the stomachache just keeps getting worse. And I. And I never even took Tums. And I was like, well, then it'll work, you know? And so I asked the nurse, I'm like, hey, can I have some Tums? And, like, what's the amount you can have safely? You know? I was like, can I chew, like, nine of these? And I had it. It did not make one difference. So she, you know, thought maybe it was trapped air. I don't know. You know, she was so sweet. And again, my pain tolerance was incredibly high at that point because half of it was shut off.

[Ryan Holiday]

When you're not taking care of yourself, so you always feel shitty. So what is actually something to be alarmed by, Right?

[Jamie Alexander]

I couldn't tell the difference. And so it started getting worse. And she was pushing on my stomach, and it got to the point where I was like, I can't stand up straight. And I had this giant machine gun. I'm running up the stairs in this scene. And actually a paparazzi got photos of that day, and I created a little substack recently, and I put them up there so people could see sort of the reality of the situation. And I did not look good. And that was, like, full on makeup and everything, right? So I was like, oh, got to my trailer midday now, I think. Also, I didn't really tell everybody, like, just how bad it was hurting because this was going to be the first half day of work I had ever had on the show. And I was about to go meet the new guy who I really liked, and we were going to go hear a lecture. So I was very excited. I was like, I have a half day.

[Ryan Holiday]

And plus, you have this habit of not. You've told yourself you're the kind of person that doesn't inconvenience people with your stuff.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And I'm the tough one, right? I'm this, like, tough. All my characters I've ever played have had this, like, grit about them and this toughness. And I just think I was meshing myself into these characters thinking, well, if they can do it, I can do it, you know, which is crazy, especially in the Marvel world. But I started. It started to get worse. I went to my trailer for lunch. I was supposed to be wrapped by them, but I wasn't. So I was like, okay, no problem. You know? And it got to the point where I could not stand. I fully was bent over. And they called a doctor to the set, and the doctor said, do you have ovarian cyst? And I was like, did you ask.

[Ryan Holiday]

For the doctor or. They had to.

[Jamie Alexander]

I asked.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'm just saying because that's, like, not a small thing.

[Jamie Alexander]

It's not a small thing. And it's interesting that, like, visibly, you know, looking back and talking to some of the folks I still know from that job, they were like, you looked horrible. And I thought, interesting that no one decided, hey, maybe she needs a doctor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right?

[Jamie Alexander]

You know, it was like, hey, no, she'll just keep going.

[Ryan Holiday]

No force a doctor on. That's why you have to be an advocate for yourself, because, like, it feels like it's not my place to do this thing for you.

[Jamie Alexander]

There's that. And also, if we have to shut down, that costs Warner Brothers X amount of money. And I get it. That's a really shitty place for a lot of producers to be in because they're just like, how can we best handle this where everybody's okay? You know? And. And I was so strong. I mean, I was literally, you know, I told you I'd dislocated shoulder, put it in a sling, and continue to do a knife fight in the back of a van one day. I mean, it was just like, chaos. Right? So they were really also responding to how I normally was.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right, right, right.

[Jamie Alexander]

So a doctor comes asks about ovarian cyst. I'm thinking, Cause now the pain had gone to my lower right side. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I would know if I had one of those. So I said, no, I don't think so. You know, and this. At this point, I'm on the floor of my trailer, and the doctor steps out. I can't remember where he went. He may have went to talk to the producer or something. And. And I had my phone, like, close enough where I started to be like, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's wrong. And I grabbed the phone and I called a producer. I said, I need to go to the hospital or something. I need help. And coincidentally, my obgyn, where we were filming, he was, like, a few streets over. So they were like, let's take her there. Because I think the producers thought, oh, it's ovarian or something because of the doctor. I think there was, like, a miscommunication. I got in there, that guy took one look at me did an ultrasound. He goes, your appendix is rupturing. He's like, you need to have the driver take you to a hospital right now. An ambulance will take too long. He's like, if they don't take the this out right away, I will come and do it myself. And this guy I've known for a while, and I have never seen him look like this. And I was like, oh, God. You know, I was just like, wait, what? Like, I was like, no, I have to go back to work. You know, like, my brain was just like, no, no, no, no. Still trying to make it not what it was. And I get to the ER and they put me through a CT scan and they're like, you are entering sepsis. And I again, was like, what? I don't understand. And meanwhile, I have a bunch of fake wounds on, right? So they're going. And I'm like, those aren't real. You know, and then I'm trying to pull the tattoos that I was weari this job off my body because people were taking photos of me in the emergency area. And I felt so awkward because again, oh, gosh, I can't look weak in front of anybody, right? So I go through the process of getting prepped for the or, and I had a. What a lot of us in recovery like, to refer to as a white light moment. I didn't grow up religious, you know, I kind of always felt like there was something maybe out there helping me out, but I had lost touch with it for so long, I thought. And I heard a voice, and it said, do you want to stay or do you want to go? And at that time, I had been left in this, like, I don't know where I was. I had a sheet over me, and I was. I just knew from, like, my breasts to my knees, I was covered in orange dye, which I guess is Betadine or something. I don't know, something sterile to, like, so that they can cut you off.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, when they cut you off.

[Jamie Alexander]

And yeah, yeah. I just remember being like, what is? And I had felt so hot on the inside. And all of a sudden, as soon as I heard the voice, I did not feel anything. And I was like, it's over. Like, I didn't have any pain. And this pain, I've been told by certain doctors, and I can't speak to this because I' no children, but they say it's worse than childbirth. And I was like, well, you might want to ask a few other women that, because I don't know if that's true. But it was horrible. I mean, I did have contractions. It was like. And then the organ burst. And so it said, do you want to stay? Do you want to go? And my first thought was, I remember you. And I was just like. And, like, I can get emotional about it now because I just knew.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Jamie Alexander]

I knew that I was. I wasn't by myself, and I wasn't afraid. Like, all that fear I had felt before was just gone. And it felt like that. That when I heard that voice, like, that's my existence, like that's the real thing. Like this. I don't know what this is, but that was like.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh.

[Jamie Alexander]

Like, you know, like I felt like I was home somehow. It's hard to explain it. And I heard this voice. It was within myself. I didn't hear it externally. I didn't see anything. I just knew. Like, I just felt it. And I said, I remember you. And then I thought I was right. And I grew up in a very violent house. I grew up.

[Ryan Holiday]

You were right. What do you mean?

[Jamie Alexander]

Like, I was right. Like, I haven't been alone this whole time. Like, I was right.

[Ryan Holiday]

That.

[Jamie Alexander]

Like that thing that I hoped that there was out there was there. And it was such a weird feeling. And then I remember thinking, why have I worried every single day of my life? What am I doing? Like, what a waste of time. Sure. You know, And I said to it, you know, I. I didn't want it to go away because I felt so happy. And. But my theory was this before. So I replied to it and I said, I think I need to stay. I think there's something else I'm supposed to do. And I really felt like that. Like it was giving me a choice, which was very strange. I mean, if we consider the concept of free will. I was like, well, case in point, I guess, but. And I thought, you know, what? If you've always been there, like, I think you have, you'll be there later, so why should I go now?

[Ryan Holiday]

Right?

[Jamie Alexander]

And that was my reasoning behind it. I was like, I'm gonna do it better this time. And immediately when I made that choice, it said, then you can never drink again. And I was like, what? Whoa. Like, you know, I didn't even. I didn't know that any. That had anything to do with anything. And it was like the weight of the world went off my shoulders. And I was like, oh, there's a name for it. There's, like, a name for what I've been doing and what's been screwing up my everything. And, like, there's a name for my darkness that I can choose to fix. Like, that is within my. And I was so happy. I mean, I was, like, deliriously happy, mind you. I had no medication in my system because they were about to put me under for a very long time. So I had asked for it. I was like, please make it stop. So I was as sober as I'd ever been. But as soon as I said, okay, I won't. I promise I will never drink again, all the doctors came in, and it was like time had stood still. The voice was gone. And I was so happy. I remember telling them, it's going to be okay. And then I had this thought the other day, because I was like, I'm pretty sure I told them I loved them.

[Ryan Holiday]

The doctors.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. Like, it was so interesting to say that to a couple strangers that are busy. You know, it's like, stop distracting them and trying to, like, hold their hand. I know. I tried to hold this one woman's hand. Yeah, I remember that one. And so they rushed me into the or. And at the same, like, when they were lifting me off the gurney, because, again, things started moving very fast, like, immediately, and still couldn't feel anything. Was starting to feel very delirious. And they pulled me from the gurney to the OR table. And my IV caught, like, on a screw or something. I don't know what it was, but it snapped the tube, and all the blood started to come out of my arm. And I felt my arm go, like, very cold and limp. And I still didn't care. I was like, oh, oh, oh. You know? And then they put me on the OR table. And that's when the mask went over my face. And they were gassing me to knock me out. Because this has gotten really bad very fast, I guess. And I felt myself not able to breathe. And I literally felt my heart stopping and my lungs stop. And I grabbed. I remember I took my right arm and tried to grab the anesthesiologist's throat, which, you know, I mean, I felt like I was gonna flatline or something, like I was gonna die it. And it's so funny because I did that just to be like, no, no, no, you don't need that. Take it off. You know, I don't know what I was thinking, but that's the last thing I remember. I woke up feeling cold. I felt so happy and so much joy. And I remember the doctors having a little meeting with me. I think I still had the, like, hair net on or something. Cause I remember being like, Can I take this off vanity? And they said, you know, this is going to be touch and go for a few days. You could end up being in here for, you know, a week to months. And I was thinking, oh, there's a lot of people that are gonna be pissed off about that. But I said to them, I said, no, I'm okay. I'll be okay. And my blood tested clean on the second day. No sepsis, which is crazy, mind you. I was on an antibiotic, like, crazy drip every 45 minutes. But they kept me another three days. Cause they thought this is not accurate. And they kept checking and kept checking. And then finally they let me go. On day five, I got to go home. And I was like, if that's not some sort of confirmation that what I met in that room was real, I don't know what is. Because again, like I said, if life were fair, if like, two plus two equals four on paper, when it comes to life and grace, I would be dead. There's just no way that somebody like me could have survived that. Like, I mean, it was literally, I feel like I was given a choice. And I had told the doctor eventually, I think on like, day three, that I think I had a drinking problem. And she was very serious. She was, when did you last drink? And I said, like, three or four days before I got here. She's like, I want you to know something. She's like, you are very lucky. She was actually really kind of mean in a good way, like, tough love. And she said, you're very lucky. She's like, if you had drank one or two days before this, you would be dead. And she's like, so if you need help, you let me know. And she's like, I'm gonna give you some literature. And I was just like, okay. Like, I mean, I was so scared into being sober, I may have accidentally got sober. Like, I didn't do it on purpose. And then I was like, now I have to do it on purpose.

[Ryan Holiday]

Support for this show comes from Fundrise. Look, investing in companies already in The S&P 500 can sometimes feel like you're being served someone else's leftovers. Could still be a good meal, but it's hard not to imagine what that food tasted like when it was fresh. You know, historically, it's only VC investors and, you know, insiders and hedge fund managers and stuff who had access to the best companies in the world before the public did. One of the things you find out when you get money is that, you know, there's certain things that are available to you that weren't available to you before and aren't available to most people. Well, fundrise is completely upending that dynamic with a new venture capital product with just a $10 minimum investment. Fundrise's mission is to give everyone the access required to invest in the best tech and AI companies before they go public. Just visit fundrise.com dailystoke to check out Fundrise's venture portfolio and start investing in minutes. Obviously, all investments involve risk, including the potential loss of principal. Past performance is not indicative of future results and this is a paid advertisement. Today's sponsor is Chime, the fee free banking app changing the way people bank Chime is not just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay, which gives you access to up to 500 of your paycheck anytime and can get you paid up to two days early with direct deposit. No more overdraft fees, minimum balance fees or monthly fees. Plus Chime makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and financial progress. I know my younger self would have benefited from this. There was so much to manage and I was so busy, you know, working on my career and trying to do all the things I was trying to do. I didn't want to have to think about overdraft fees or my minimum balance or how much is in my checking account. I didn't want to take time from what I was doing to transfer money from this account to that account. It would have been so convenient to have it all in one place, accessible on my phone. If you want a bank fee free plus overdraft coverage, you should switch to Chime Plus. You can earn up to 3.5% APY on your savings. That's eight times higher than a traditional bank. Chime is not just smarter banking, it's also the most rewarding way to bank join the millions who are already banking fee free today. It takes just a few minutes to sign up. Head over to chime.com stoic that is chime.com stoic Chime is a financial technology.

[Jamie Alexander]

Company, not a bank. Banking services A secured Chime Visa credit card and MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com feesinfo advertised annual percentage yield with Chime+status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No min balance required. Chime card on Time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

[Ryan Holiday]

The ideal scenario would be all this happens and then you just never felt a desire to drink ever again.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah, that would have been great, but.

[Ryan Holiday]

That'S probably not how it went, right?

[Jamie Alexander]

That is not how it went.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's actually when the work starts. Is coming out of the hospital.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. The first thing is taking advantage of a moment of grace. When you have something, it's quiet. Usually. Like, I love that quote. Confidence is silent. Insecurities are loud. I feel that anytime I need to get in touch with my inner voice, it's quiet. It makes me. I have to be still to hear it a lot.

[Ryan Holiday]

You don't hear voices while you're doing 30 other things. You're very busy.

[Jamie Alexander]

You might feel something, and then it's your choice whether or not you want to consciously connect with it. But I had to have the courage to ask for help. And I think whatever's out there, Higher power, whatever you want to call it, knew that I wasn't going to be able to do it by myself. And it's like, you know what? We're going to wake your ass up, up. Because you are so headstrong. You're so. I've looked after everybody in my life, my entire life. I'm financially responsible for some other people in my family. I've always been the tough person. I, you know, at a very young age, ended up getting my mom to divorce her second husband, who was very abusive. Like, I mean, I just am, like, doing things that kids don't normally do. So for me to ask somebody for help was that equaled failure to me. And this was like, you don't have another choice. You can't even walk. So it's like you're gonna. Once you're out of the wheelchair, you need to ask for help. And I asked that. That guy I was dating, I said, I know I have a problem. And he thought, wait, what? Like, he didn't see it. And then he thought, I think you're just, like, sensitive. You went through a lot. And I was like, no, Let me tell you about how I used to drink. As I said it out loud, it was like, okay, you're gonna have to say goodbye to your best friend, and a part of you is dead and good for you. But also, this is gonna be the worst thing you've ever been through.

[Ryan Holiday]

I imagine the higher power part of the 12 step program was easier for you given the. Whatever the Mysterious force pushing you away from drinking when it would have killed you. And then, of course, the. The question in the hospital, yes, you.

[Jamie Alexander]

You would think so. I think once I. The further I got from that, like, incident in the hospital, the more I was like, you know what? This sucks. Like, this is so hard. You know, like I say to a lot of people, I. I say, you know, there's not one person on earth that doesn't want to shut off life for a few minutes. Life is hard. It is what it is. But if you didn't have adversity in your life, you would not have an opportunity to show up. And that's where stoicism came in to the whole thing for me.

[Ryan Holiday]

When did you find stoicism?

[Jamie Alexander]

I found it through sobriety.

[Ryan Holiday]

Interesting.

[Jamie Alexander]

Now I'm talking about the textbook version of stoicism. I had always operated, and this is what I learned about myself through reading, you know, Meditations, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus. I'm a huge fan of. They couldn't be more different in the way they lived their lives or what life had presented them. But they had the same type philosophy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

Really interesting. Right? So we are not our outside situations. We are how we choose to respond to our outside situations. And when I used to think that way a lot, and I used to kind of daydream, sometimes I get teased about it. And then I realized, this is one of the things that's going to keep me sober.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Because this is. I know this to be true. Like, I have that knowing whether I'm right or wrong. I know for myself, this types of, you know, this type of philosophy is going to help me in times where I cannot see straight and in times where I'm having a really rough time. Because, you know, I look at that situation that happened to me in the hospital. Boy, going into the hospital, I was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me ever. And it's gonna affect a lot of people I work with. They're gonna be jobless. They're gonna be, you know, And I was like, whatever. I get out, and I'm almost eight years sober now, God willing. And I think that was by far the best thing that has ever happened to me. So I learned a lot from that. So this is. This ties into a higher power thing, is like, I really don't know what's good or bad. And I'm holding up air quotes here, because I really don't.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

You know, something can be, you know, we're not dumb. We can Realize when we're like, oh, you know, like, I broke my shoulder, that frigging hurts, that that really sucks. But that could lead to something that, you know, really wonderful. And this has put me stoicism and my sobriety and the way my life has gone over the last few years, which is not like I thought it would kind of in. I'm not even gonna say in the worst way. Cause I don't believe that now.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

But it has positioned me in a way. And I'm now in a place where I can be, I think, a lot more useful to a lot more people.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I think when people hear that, it's like, it's not good or bad. You go to this sort of moral place. It's more like it's not positive or negative. It just is. And then you get to decide by the way, time will tell whether it was positive or negative.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. Just show up. Just show up. Put one foot in front of the other and be curious. That's something that's helped me a lot. When I fall into judgment of anyone other than myself, I go, no, no, no, wait a second. I'm actually gonna be curious. I wanna see how this plays out. I wanna see how it plays out to lose my home and to lose most of my possessions. And I wanna see how it plays out that I can't seem to get an acting job for the last however long. Right. I'm curious. Actually. I had resentments there and I was like, no, actually, this is. Something is outta my control. I do what I can and the chips are gonna fall. It's how I respond to what's going on here. And I thought, you know what? I have pigeoned myself into this, like, little narrow lane over here going, you know, you're a super poor kid from Texas that was a high school wrestler that, like, never had a date in her life. Like, just was like, awkward, horrible home life, lots of sexual abuse. Lots of. Just the crap. Right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And I list those things too, when I talk to newcomers, people that are newly sober. Because I say, that's not why I'm an alcoholic. I know a lot of people that went through a lot worse and they. They aren't alcoholics. I said that was my excuse. And I was like, that is me not taking accountability for who I am right now. And there's a quote that I actually had tattooed on my body because I thought it was cool back in the day. I think it still is, but it's. I'm not what happened to me, I'm What I choose to become, which is a Carl Jung quote. And for me, that is it. That is it. So I looked at my life and I said, now you. You're trying to do this acting thing still. Were you that happy when you were doing it? And the answer is like, yeah, sometimes. I mean, Thor was cool. I got to wear a cape and, you know, had a sword and all kinds of fun stuff. There were a lot of things that I loved about being an actress, and maybe I will continue to do it. I really don't know. But the freedom of letting go of the mask that I have not intentionally created, but that I notice and I'm aware of, that I've created. Holy shit. That kind of freedom of just like. Like, so what?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Like, I can live on two. There's a spectrum of life. Right. I am literally on both far ends of the spectrum. I live in a studio apartment, very little possessions in, luckily, though, Manhattan. So that's bougie in of itself. But, like, I went from having many more material things. Right. To not a lot. Now I'm the happiest I've ever been.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

I also just recently went to an event as Susan Rockefeller's guest, and it was an event honoring Sofia Coppola. Chanel sponsored it. And I had a moment where I stood on that red carpet, but people asking me for autographs, and I thought, you know, I just laughed, and I was like, got it. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. I can. You can feel more than one thing at a time. Anything is possible. Be curious, interesting. Open your tunnel vision. Look at it all from every perspective that you can. I want to know what I can know to make me the most useful for someone else. And the thing about fear that I've learned because I. I had a. I experienced a really traumatic flight in 2012, and now it didn't stop me from hanging outside of a chopper on Blind Spot. So that talk about screws being loose, but I was nervous to fly here yesterday because I hadn't flown in a while. And I thought, when have you ever been absent of fear? And I went through the obvious, like, oh, when I'm in a room with other alcoholics. Then I said, no, I'm never afraid when I'm being useful, and I'm never afraid when I'm being of service. I actually don't, because I'm not thinking about myself when I'm being useful or being of service. I'm not up here. So I got on that plane, I said, I'm going to be as useful as possible. If somebody needs help putting up a bag, I'm gonna do it. If somebody wants to chat, I'll do it. If somebody wants me to. I was cleaning up shit on the plane. I was talking. I had the best time.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure. It gets you out of your head.

[Jamie Alexander]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And then I get in the taxi here in Austin, and I meet a fella that's from Morocco, and I had spent time in Morocco, and we were talking about harsha, which is this great bread. And then I go into my hotel and there's this wonderful waiter that I sat and chatted with named Josh, who was working to be a therapist, who told me about Barton Springs, which I'm going to go swim, hopefully not drown. And I thought, none of this is possible if I am in a state of fear.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Jamie Alexander]

So already I use that as an example of, look how open and big your life just got in 24 hours.

[Ryan Holiday]

What's interesting, the curiosity thing, because, like, artistically, we understand that stuff has to happen to move the movie or the TV show or the book forward. I think it was the Dalai Lama. Someone asked the Dalai Lama, like, about, you know, why is there evil? Why do they exist in the world? And he said to thicken the plot. And you go, oh, yeah. Like, if it was simple, if nothing happened, if it always went the way we wanted it to go, it would be incredibly boring. And also, all the good stuff that comes from those moments, like, you need the crisis in the second act, so then there can be a third act. And then, so we understand that creatively, we maybe even understand that historically, or we see it in other people's lives, and then in our life, we're like, no, no, no, I gotta keep it on track at all times. I can't afford this to happen. I don't want that to happen. And by the way, I'm gonna torture myself with anxiety day to day, as if that somehow keeps it all together. Because if it happens, it'll be the worst thing that ever happens. As opposed to a plot device or a way of moving the character not just forward, but, like, to where it has to go.

[Jamie Alexander]

Right. I've always thought of adversity as being the greatest catalyst.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

It's not easy to say when you're in the middle of a shitstorm.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Jamie Alexander]

It's just not.

[Ryan Holiday]

You know, that doesn't mean it's fun.

[Jamie Alexander]

Doesn't mean it's fun. But if you're able to sit with yourself, perhaps there's People that you admire that you take some knowledge from and you look at it on a piece of paper.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Every time you look at someone's story, I think of Viktor Frankl. You look at all these stories and you go, it's the same. It's the same. There has to be adversity in one's life or you will like, what's the point of life? Perhaps that's the point of the afterlife. We don't have any of that shit. I have no idea. But there's a point to. I'd rather think that I have a purpose here on this planet than just being a random piece of flesh walking around for me. It just makes me happier. So that works for me, and it may not work for everybody, but what I've started doing is so again, you know, I'd pigeoned myself into being just an actress. I decided I'd like to write. So I started writing. Now, I didn't call myself a writer. Cause I thought, no, because, you know, who's a writer? And I start listing, you know, all these people. James Fry, all these, you know, whatever.

[Ryan Holiday]

And do you know James?

[Jamie Alexander]

I know of him. Oh, I just listened to his podcast with Rich Roll. Who I. I have to say, Rich Roll, I'm a fan. Like, I've never met him, but that guy has a level of humility and grace that I think is a really great thing for a lot of men. Also women, but men to see, you know, not to mention his physical accomplishments. I mean, part of why I'm swimming and I'm gonna compete is just to be like, hey, Rich Roll, I did it. You know, I mean, just so again, I'm looking at people I respect and I'm going, what do they do? Like, what in my life kind of could go with that? Like, where can I draw inspiration? Like, who's to say I can't write? Me. That's exactly who has been saying it. I had a tough upbringing where looking back now realize I just. I did not have the strength to apply myself in school other than sports. And the reason I did sports is wrestling specifically, is I needed a place for the rage to go.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And I grew very tall at a very young age. So, you know, I was taller than every opponent in my weight class. So I won almost every time. I would sprawl and do the half, and then that was that. I loved the competition side, but I hated hurting somebody. It was not my nature. And I learned about myself. Then I said, okay, I wonder when this is ever gonna be useful. Cut To I do a bunch of action stuff. And I was like, oh, good, this is good. This is fake hurting people. This is great. But I look back on my life and say, well, there are a lot of things I wanted to be as a kid. But I was like, not possible for you. You're the poor kid in the rich school. You're the, you know, started your life in a trailer, single mother, your dad. Dad is nowhere, who knows where he is. Didn't love you. You know, you were a punching bag for nine years. You were this, this and this. And a lot of things that people wouldn't guess by my exterior. Again, pun intended. Don't judge a book by its cover. But think about. I do think about this. And I look across the table at you and I say, both of us have survived 100% of what has happened to us. Yeah, sure, 100%, or we wouldn't be sitting here.

[Ryan Holiday]

Also, you come from people that survived shit or you wouldn't be here or.

[Jamie Alexander]

I wouldn't be here. And so you think of that track. That's a pretty good track record. And I think in a non self serving way, in the worst way. Right. Like, I think we should give ourselves some love for that. It's not easy. Life is hard. And the thing is, my main mission this day forward is to make sure that every person I meet, and I really believe this is why I'm here, because I feel quiet about it in a way. But I wanna make sure that every person I meet knows that they matter. That is something that I did not believe when I was a kid.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And so I am becoming the thing, the person that I wish I could have had when I was little. And a lot of my friends would say the same thing. And is that like, this is what I try to do in everything I do. I just like, how do you make a living doing that? I don't want to charge anybody for that. You know, like, I just wanna sit with people and ask them how they're doing and what, you know, Because I think of my story and I'm going, I'm just one person with this story. Like, what about your story? And, you know, Claire's story? And every, you know, it's crazy to me to think like, how layered all of us are. And another thing is like, I love the idea of viewing myself as a kaleidoscope. I'm a lot of different stuff. I'm an actress, I'm a, you know, I was a wrestler. I'm. I like to write. I'm Gonna really try hard to swim outdoors later today and not die.

[Ryan Holiday]

There's a lot of lifeguards at Barton Springs.

[Jamie Alexander]

This is good. I needed to hear that. I was thinking to myself, it's on my agent, Chaz, to save my life, and I might drown him in the process. And then he's got a family. And my brain will just be like, maybe you shouldn't go. But it's just like, you can be all these wonderful things that you are, and you don't have to just stick to one thing. And you also don't have to be what you think others want you to be. Really, what others think is not your business, because you will never know. You will actually never know truly what someone thinks about you. 100%. It's not possible. You're not in their brain.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, mostly they're not thinking about you at all.

[Jamie Alexander]

A hundred percent. I have learned this over and over. It's actually one of those things where I was a little nervous coming here, and I had to remember. It's like, hey, you're feeling this way. You are choosing to go on these thoughts of, oh, he's so much more well read in stoicism. You know, he's so much. Obviously, like, more versed. Clearly, as I say it, you're better versed in stoicism. And I thought, what am I gonna bring to the table as, like. Like, hold on. Just bring yourself and learn something.

[Ryan Holiday]

So you said you found stoicism in recovery. Did someone give you one of the books? Or do you remember how you came to it?

[Jamie Alexander]

You.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, but how. How did you find it?

[Jamie Alexander]

So I remember some I cannot. And I remember this, but I don't remember who it was. Somebody that is a recovering addict was talking about Marcus Aurelius, and I was like, oh, yeah, I used to read a lot of that when I was younger and sort of praying for the relief of desire.

[Ryan Holiday]

I mean, Epictetus, I think, is more popular in the recovery community because he's so much about, like, some stuff is up to you, some stuff is not correct. Epictetus is basically The Serenity Prayer. 2000 years before the Serenity Prayer.

[Jamie Alexander]

I literally just had this conversation two days ago with a friend of mine. So he was like, I don't know much about stoicism. And he, like, Googled it, and he said, oh, it's basically the Serenity Prayer. I said, I know who you're looking at.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah. And the idea of, like, are you gonna pray for this thing to magically go away, or are you gonna Pray to have the strength to deal with this thing. Caus and praise and I think the operative word there, it's like, are you going to hope to be spared or you're going to hope to be strong enough to deal with it? Like, one is a much more resilient sort of up to you thing to think about, and the other is just like, hoping you get lucky.

[Jamie Alexander]

More of a victim mentality.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Jamie Alexander]

It's. For me, it's about accountability and taking responsibility, like being responsible for myself. So, you know, I'm not going to pray that I, you know, get a big job in a month or get income or do this or whatever. I'm gonna pray that I stay of sound mind and that I stay useful to others. And then I am blessed with the strength to persevere.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

And that to me, oh, I feel so much better about myself, you know, I feel like that's manageable. That other stuff is out of my control. Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

You know?

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes. One is a lot bigger target. Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And like, you just think about people just sort of like how narrow their path is to success. They need this to happen and this to happen and this to happen and this to happen, as opposed to, like, I'm sort of good with whatever. Like, I think the word that is associated with stoicism is indifference. And so that seems like. Like, you don't give a shit.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah, it's not apathy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, but. But like, I think what they mean by indifferent is like, good either way. Like, I remember I was talking to Shaka Smart, who's a basketball coach, and he was a coach here in Texas and now he's a coach in Wisconsin. And I was saying, like, do you. I was like, do you like warm weather or cold weather? You know, those are very different climates. He said, and I always think about it. He's like, I'm a dress for the weather guy. And he's basically saying, I don't give a shit because I don't control it. And, you know, I think a lot of people are like, no, no, this is how I need things to be. And that's good so long as you get it and you get in trouble when you don't get it. And life ultimately, you realize, doesn't care what you care about.

[Jamie Alexander]

No, life has its own terms. It really isn't. You are not the center of the universe.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

Thank God.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think that's really what the fourth step is about. It's not so much like, do you actually have to believe in a big guy in the sky or the gods, the way the Stoics did, Or does it actually have to be some higher. I think at the core of it, it's primarily coming to terms with the fact that you're not the higher power.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes. You are not it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

And I used to think, then how am I gonna get all this done? And, like, I have to be responsible for that. And I remember being told, no, no, no, you're confusing it. Like, know that you are not it. Meaning, can you see it as a weight off your shoulders? You are not thinking of everything. Yeah. It's a relief. I'm like, cool. All I have to focus on is how I respond to whatever is in front of me, and that's it. So really, if I put my focus there and try to, you know, do everything I can with a sense of inte. A sense of usefulness, a sense of compassion, empathy, all that stuff, I mean, I'm good. I really can't control the weather. I can't control anything. I mean, and so knowing that, and I believe that that's the difference. Like, you. I had to learn to believe that. And then it's like, oh, cool, there's something else. Looking after everybody and controlling everybody else and doing it. Or, like, doing it. Like, I don't have to, you know, try to stand in front of the ocean and stop a wave. You're not going to be able to do it. Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

And even once you believe it, it's still the day to day and maybe even like hour by hour and minute by minute reminder. Because you catch yourself resuming the role of being the higher power or the center of the universe all the time. You're like, well, no, no, I need this plane to be on time, or I need this package to come in, or I need this person to be elected. You know, like, you need it to be a certain way to be good, to be happy, to be safe, to whatever it is. And then you're just like, wait, how often historically, have I gotten my way? Like, not that often.

[Jamie Alexander]

No.

[Ryan Holiday]

And you're fine. You figure it out. And in fact, you look back and you go, hey, most of the time, the things I'm most proud of are like, how I responded when it didn't go my way.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. There's a great sense of empowerment that you can get from that, knowing that if you take things one step at a time as they come, you can get through anything.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

A master murderer, Israel Keyes lives between two worlds.

[Ryan Holiday]

There's the person that everybody knows and loves, and then there's the guy who spends every waking hour planning on how he's going to kill someone.

[Jamie Alexander]

On Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer, we find out how this deadly predator went unnoticed for so long.

[Ryan Holiday]

I've had some confessions in my history, but nothing to that detail. I'll give it blow by blow if you want.

[Jamie Alexander]

Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer. Wherever you get your podcasts, A lot of people will ask me, I work with a lot of women in recovery, and I'll get asked. Well, I don't understand how to do that. You know, like, it's easier said than done. You know, you get. You've had, you know, this amount of time, I'm thinking, I don't got a lot of time sober. Like, eight years is not a ton of time. But when I'm asked that, they're like, how do you do it then? And then you're kind of like, oh, shit, I gotta. Okay. I go back to. I stay curious. I look at my life as one big fat experiment. I didn't know how that flight was gonna go, if there was gonna be, you know, but I was like, I'm curious. I'm curious about the people I'm sitting next to. I'm curious. You know, I was talking with this fellow next to me, Anders from Sweden, and I was drinking a club soda at the same time, and he made me laugh and it came out my nose and I was like, couldn't have predicted that to happen, you know? But then it's like, okay, how do I respond to that? I used to feel embarrassed, right? I laughed harder and more came out of my nose. It was just like, there's a lightness of being when, for me, when I stay curious rather than dictative, like, this has to happen so I can do this and that. It's like, boy, left to my own devices, like, I clearly am not the best judge of what should happen and what shouldn't happen. So I'm really curious to let. Let something outside of myself, something bigger than me, lead, like, steer the ship.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's an interesting way to think about it. Right? Part of accepting powerlessness and also the higher power thing, probably the reason that's so important in recovery is like, you don't make good choices. That's why you're here. If it was working, you wouldn't be here. And if you were well qualified to be the driver of the universe, you wouldn't have blown up your Life.

[Jamie Alexander]

Right? Yeah, 100%.

[Ryan Holiday]

I mean, like, learning that to not trust like, sometimes we have to learn to trust our instincts. And then there's this other part of it where you're like, no, my instincts are fucking stupid. I mean, you learn that when you train, like, in any kind of combat sport, you're like, whatever. Like, you. Whatever you think you're good at. Then when you actually. You're like, no, no, no. This is like, your instincts are what makes you. You know, you go like this, or you do the thing, and that's like the most vulnerable thing you can do. Your instincts suck.

[Jamie Alexander]

You have to practice this stuff. It is not natural. For most people and alcoholics and addicts that are in recovery, we're so much luckier. We are, because we. We literally get taught this stuff from day one, and we get to see it in real time. And, you know, I. I find the 12 steps incredibly helpful. And it's. They're almost like this algorithm I can plug my life into, and it spits out a pretty solid suggestion. You know, it's up to me whether I take that suggestion. But a lot of us that are. I guess I should just speak for myself, is that I have been incredibly humbled by my recovery, by life, by people around me. And so I find that strange. I don't know if easier is the word, but I do find that I have easier access to that mentality.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, well, people will go like, oh, I'm gonna trust my gut. But it's like, have you actually done the work to earn that trust? You know, people are like, oh, I'm intuitive.

[Jamie Alexander]

And it's like, like, where's the evidence.

[Ryan Holiday]

That you have good intuition? You know? And so, like, part of. I think whether it's troll step or philosophy or religion, what they are is, like, they're not perfect. But it is tried and tested over thousands of years that, like, you trust this thing. Override your instincts and your impulses. Because, like, this is. This is a better framework or an algorithm, because your algorithm is biased, it's prejudiced, it's not sufficiently worked. It's all these other things. And you have to have that sort of leap of faith or the trust in the. Yeah, this is actually. This is based on more than just me, who, by the way, hasn't been here that long.

[Jamie Alexander]

Right. Correct.

[Ryan Holiday]

Or actually been through anything that, like, the most serious thing that you've been through. I mean, every person is not the most serious thing that people have been through.

[Jamie Alexander]

Correct.

[Ryan Holiday]

Like, it's. It's only been tested to a certain amount of pressure, and other people have been through more and worse, more times. And, like, you know, you think you'd want to avail yourself of, like, that wisdom. I read somewhere that you, like, read a stoic passage every day.

[Jamie Alexander]

Okay, I do. I actually brought my daily Stoic book, because whether you like it or not, you're gonna sign it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay.

[Jamie Alexander]

So I used to have meditations, and I would read that, and I would. You know, sometimes I don't have a ton of time to sit and meditate on it. So what I love that you've done is you've brought this ancient philosophy, and you have made it so much more digestible for the modern person. These teachings, honestly, they were popular at some points in history, right? Like, repeatedly. But in all honesty, when I mentioned stoicism, a lot of people are like, what's that? Like, you're stoic. Like, you're strong. You stand up tall, and you're like, not quite. And so when I start to talk about it, they're always like, wow. I mean, yeah, I've thought that way, or I felt that way. And so I recommend your book because I say, look, not only are you just getting Marcus Aurelius, you're getting Epictetus, you're getting Seneca, you're getting all these different avenues of stoicism, of the philosophy, and you're getting somebody who is alive right now that's putting it out there in real time. So that if you say, you know, if you read a text and you're like, I'm not quite sure what that means, it's like, you know what? Here's an interpretation at the bottom of the page.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Does it. Does that give you something to think about? And so what I do is every morning, I wake up. This is part of my morning routine to keep my head screwed on straight. I wake up, I write a gratitude list that's half a page. And it can be silly things. It can be something grand. I just say, look, it's, again, the whole spectrum, right? I have a lot to be grateful for. And it puts my mind in a state of focus on what's working, like, what's going good. Because there's a lot of stuff. I mean, you can have something bad happen in your life, and then that's all you see. And it's like, hold on. Two things can be happening at the same time. And even more so, I do that actually wrong. Right before I do the gratitude list, I read a passage from the Daily Stoic.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Jamie Alexander]

And then I take that and I think about it, and I say, I'm gonna carry that with me today. And I'm going to apply the lesson. And I catch. Sometimes I'll take a screen grab on my phone if it's a little longer because I want to read it again. And so then I write the gratitude list. Then I have these little intention cards that I found that I've had for like 15 years or something. And I'll just pull a random card and also carry that intention. And then I start my day and I just, I feel grounded because I feel very aligned with this philosophy. And look, yes. As a woman saying this, you know, I haven't encountered many female stoics. I have encountered a lot of women that I think already sort of have this philosophy within them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Jamie Alexander]

That don't realize that it matches stoicism. But I can't say that the stoics treated women very well. You know, there's a lot of history in there that's a little dodgy, but it's a sign of the times and whatnot. And I'm sure there were female stoics, they just weren't recorded as often because they couldn't be.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I mean, this is a world where like all the women in your line of the family would just have the same name. So it's like.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yes. Yeah, that's true.

[Ryan Holiday]

Julius Caesar. Julius Caesar. Julius Caesar. You know, it's just like how it would go. So, yeah, we don't have great records.

[Jamie Alexander]

But not to say that that can't, you know, you doing what you're doing, it's like this is part of the legacy. And this is how I see it. Just coming from my perspective is like you are taking something that is so profound that I have found that helps me in my daily life, that has helped give me a sense of peace that I have trouble reaching on my own. You've taken it, made it accessible, and that's part of your legacy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, that's very nice. You're talking about being a service. Someone did that for me and I'm just sort of paying that forward. That's what sort of gets me going.

[Jamie Alexander]

Is it green? Is that who you're talking about?

[Ryan Holiday]

Your. You wanna know who introduced me to stoicism? Dr. Dr.

[Jamie Alexander]

True, even. Oh, I knew that. Yes, I read. I remember hearing about that.

[Ryan Holiday]

It was a very random set of circumstances.

[Jamie Alexander]

Perfect. Got you.

[Ryan Holiday]

Somebody gives you the book and then, I mean, you can give someone the tools and then do you know, it's ultimately on them to read it or apply it or do what they are going to do with it. But yeah, I found this thing. It did something for me. And then you're sort of. I feel like life is about paying it forward.

[Jamie Alexander]

I agree. I love that philosophy. So how do you feel now knowing? I mean, again, and this isn't from an egoic perspective. It's like, do you feel like you are very much in line and aligned with why you were put on this planet?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. In a way, the success of it complicates it because there's just a lot of people involved. And I don't just mean there's like, a lot of. There's like, a big team, which there is. It's not just me, but, I mean, there's just like, a lot of people involved with me. And the thing that I would also quietly be spending time with anyway, like, as helpful as it's been to me, and as much as I try to apply to my life, my personal application of it is a constant struggle, like it is for everyone. But there's also just, like, this is like, the thing that's creatively and artistically fulfilling to me, but then it involves lots of people. Does that make sense? Like. Yeah. Yeah. That's the weirder part.

[Jamie Alexander]

But would you say that that might be how you know that it is your purpose, is that you would be doing it without the notoriety as well?

[Ryan Holiday]

I think so, yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

So it's naturally in you. It's something that you.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then it's also like, what I feel like. I think stoicism is a philosophy that I'm lit up by, but then writing is the profession that I'm lit up by, and they just happen to have merged. And so that's a weird. Do you know what I mean? If I was, like, personally interested philosophy and then I wrote, you know, like a murder mystery, murder mysteries or, you know, historical fiction or whatever, there would be a separate. There'd be like a church and state there, but there isn't. So it can be a little weird.

[Jamie Alexander]

I actually find that to be very similar to Marcus Aurelius.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Maybe in the sense that, like, he did this thing as a way to help himself stay grounded and help him rule in the best way that he saw fitness. So it's kind of one of those things where he was constantly humbled every day by these two things that were intersecting quite often.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, I think it's like, if you had asked him at 20 what he wanted to do with his life at 15, he would have said, I want to be a Philosopher.

[Jamie Alexander]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then he gets sort of selected or drafted into being the emperor. And I think what I would make up, and if I was doing it in fiction, I would show him as being quite torn by this. And only later in life, after a lot of struggle and resistance, does he realize that they're the same thing. And that actually he was uniquely suited to be a king who was a philosopher, as opposed to a philosopher who had opinions about how a king should be.

[Jamie Alexander]

Sure.

[Ryan Holiday]

But I think that's common is like, we think our job or our path or what we were chosen for is this, and it's actually this. And it's only an understanding that they're much more similar, that eventually they converge, that we're sort of really doing what we're supposed to be doing.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. I think that's a big relief in life.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. When. When you stop trying to fight, you're like, no, no, I don't want that thing. I want this thing. And you realize, actually, in some ways, this thing is what's actually going to allow you to do that thing.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah. Like, facilitates it. It preps it. It, like. And again, like, I see that with Epictetus as well. You know, you're. You're looking at this guy and you're just like, God, he's like the. I mean, talk about like, a shitty deck of cards. But he didn't let it stop him from writing what he, you know, wrote down in that sense of, like, going, these are the lessons I'm learning in. Also weird.

[Ryan Holiday]

Parallel to Marcus Aurelius, one is dealt a shittier objectively. Deck of cards. Yes, objectively, but, like, neither of them is dealt the hand they would have chosen. And that's what they share in common, I think.

[Jamie Alexander]

And that's where the meditations come from.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

That is where this philosophy comes from. I don't think it would have been possible without that two halves of a whole dueling situation that they were both put in. That, of course, then helps me where I'm at in my life and will continue to help me to keep that perspective of like, yeah, you don't know.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then that goes to the curiosity. You think your job is X, but the world is telling you the world's over here trying to hire you for Y, and you're like, well, maybe I. Instead of fighting it all circumstances, see if that's actually what I'm supposed to.

[Jamie Alexander]

Do, what have I got to lose? Like, why not? Like, I think society has given us a template of what we feel because we've seen It. And a lot of people, most of them are miserable, but we go, oh, everybody else has said it's this. So I guess they're right. And it's like, oh, no. How do you feel? Yeah, you know, what do you feel to be true? And I think we all have it in us. We all have that inner knowing, and it's just our external world and the people in it. We've allowed them to consciously or unconsciously take us away from our inner knowing and things like this, meditations, you know, stoicism in general has helped me get in touch with my inner knowing that I felt or that I feel now has always been there. And I just. It's always been accessible.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And I think there, there. I do hear from a lot of people in recovery, stoicism does seem to have made its way. I think there's a couple of sort of the original guys that had quoted the stoics here or there, so I think they were even familiar with it like a hundred years ago or whatever.

[Jamie Alexander]

It feels that way. When I read some of that literature back from, like, the 30s and 40s, I kind of go, oh, this is familiar. You know, maybe less eloquently written, but still, I can see the parallels. And again, that's that version of me that. That side of me that's always trying to look for what's working.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Jamie Alexander]

Like what? You know, what can I identify with? I'm sick of looking at what. What makes me different.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Jamie Alexander]

You know, I find that to be a waste of time for me personally.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Jamie Alexander]

So. Yeah. Are you going to sign my book?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, of course. You want to go check out some books in the bookstore? Listen.

[Jamie Alexander]

Yeah, I would love to.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode soon.

[Jamie Alexander]

I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Hey, good morning.

[Jamie Alexander]

Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yep, they sure are.

[Jamie Alexander]

We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs all in one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's all right.

[Jamie Alexander]

We're so far up here.

[Ryan Holiday]

Look at me.

[Jamie Alexander]

Take a deep breath. I'm good.

[Ryan Holiday]

So good. Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. It feels good to Geico.