Mel Robbins Reading List (From Ryan Holiday)

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast

Episode: Mel Robbins Reading List (From Ryan Holiday)
Date: January 4, 2026
Host: Ryan Holiday
Notable Guests: Mariah Carey, Julia Baird, Fantasy Author Guest

---

Overview

This episode centers on a lively, candid discussion about personal reading habits, book recommendations, and the stories behind meaningful books for each participant. Ryan Holiday, joined by Mariah Carey, Julia Baird, and a guest fantasy author, explores the joys of book collecting, the importance of reading routines, reflections on parenting and creativity, and the power of literature—especially fantasy and children's books—to shape perspective and relationships. The episode is infused with warmth, humor, and a love for both high and low literary culture, blending nostalgia, practical advice, and meaningful anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Books and Collecting (03:06–04:27)

• The group admires an eclectic bookshelf and jokes about the curation process:
  • Julia Baird explains: “The worst books are up top because, like, they give you lots of... that. There's some trash books that are up closer to the top.” (03:45)
  • Mariah Carey chimes in about her own podcast studio decor: “Because I wanted it all beige and white. Specially all Mariah Carey and Daniel Steel books... When intellectual people come in, you can…” (04:00)
• Lighthearted observations on the fate of once-popular books: “It's kind of humbling and inspiring to think whatever books were popular at a period... at some point they all end up at Goodwill.” (Julia Baird, 04:11)

Book Recommendations and Personal Stories

Animal-Themed Books and Spiritual Experiences (04:41–06:21)

• Mariah Carey shares a moving story:
  • On rescuing an injured owl on her 27th anniversary:
    • “I straddled it and went to scoop it up. And it turned its face around and looked me in the eyes. And the pouring rain was coming down.” (05:01)
    • “I feel like... there was a deeply spiritual thing that was happening around the owl that night.” (06:10)
• Julia shares her favorite irreverent bird book, highlighting the playful side of reading with kids: “My kids love it because... it's just got curse words in it.” (06:21)

Children’s Books and Generational Connections (07:27–10:37)

• The group discusses beloved children’s books:
  • Julia Baird: “Well, I love the Boy, the Fox, the Horse and the Mole. My son is obsessed with Greek history…” (08:04)
  • Discovery of BJ Novak's “The Book with No Pictures” and the laughter it brings:
    • “You have to read everything the book says, no matter what. So it gets crazier and crazier, and you have to say all this ridiculous shit.” (Julia Baird, 09:20)
    • Mariah Carey, reading from the book: “Yes. I am a monkey. My head is made of blueberry pizza.” (09:35)
    • “My only friend in the world is a hippo named Boo Boo Butt.” (Mariah Carey, 09:44)
• The appeal of silly humor in children's literature—Mariah: “I have a fourth grade boy’s sense of humor.” (06:30)

Fantasy & Romantasy Recommendations, and Audible Escapes (13:18–14:55)

• Mariah Carey reveals a passion for fantasy and “romantasy”:
  • “Court of Thorn and Roses, baby. Although I like the graphic audio.” (13:19)
  • Discussion around audio adaptations: “I’m addicted to it. I love it.” (Mariah Carey, 13:31)
  • She shares the aspiration to write a fantasy trilogy—motivated by admiration for world-building and the challenge it represents:
    • “I’m so impressed by world building... It’d be really fun to challenge myself to try to do that.” (Mariah Carey, 15:16)

Writing with Family—Healing and Collaboration (15:07–19:20)

• Mariah details co-authoring a book with her daughter and the unexpected healing that emerged:
  • “We argued over every word, and we are the exact opposite person. She’s a walking Excel spreadsheet. And I’m like, you know, if you take mice and put them in a cardboard box and tip it over, that is me.” (15:41)
  • Realization about her daughter’s self-criticism and talents:
    • “She is such a brain with horsepower that if it's not aimed at something, shames at herself.” (17:01)
  • The inception of “Let me” as an answer to the problems with the “Let them” philosophy:
    • “[Let them] makes people lonely... There has to be a second part.” (Mariah Carey via her daughter, 17:45–18:07)
  • Working together heals relationship wounds and models acceptance:
    • “It was incredible. It healed our relationship, honestly, because we were forced to be with each other all day and work through the emotions and judgments that we had with one another.” (Mariah Carey, 18:13)
    • “Let her have this experience and just be with her without trying to fix it. It was. It was unbelievable.” (Mariah Carey, 19:10)

Adult Fantasy Literature and Representation (19:39–20:04)

• Fantasy author guest notes the significance of adult female protagonists in fantasy:
  • “It’s really the one of the only series that I’ve read that is like... an adult woman who’s going through a midlife crisis.” (Guest Fantasy Author, 19:48)

The Craft of Writing: Tools and Process (21:09–23:08)

• Julia Baird describes her writing process using note cards to track ideas for multiple projects, including a biography on Admiral James Stockdale.
  • “I do all my stuff on note cards. Like all my books and then so each book... I would just circle...” (23:00)
• Stockdale’s legacy is discussed as a source of Stoic inspiration:
  • “He was... seven years in a prison camp... he’s the Stockdale paradox.” (Julia Baird, 22:17)

Reflections on Reading as a Writer (23:22–23:48)

• Julia Baird emphasizes the essential partnership between reading and writing:
  • “You can't write without reading.”
  • “Once a month I send out an email with my favorite book recommendations... Books that changed my life, that inspired me.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mariah Carey on spiritual encounters and loss:
  “It was on our 27th wedding anniversary... in the pouring rain... [The owl] turned its face around and looked me in the eyes.” (05:01)
• Julia Baird on the recycling of books through culture:
  “Whatever books were popular at a period... at some point they all end up at Goodwill.” (04:11)
• Mariah Carey on co-writing with her daughter:
  “She is such a brain with horsepower that if it’s not aimed at something, shames at herself.” (17:01)
  “Working on this together healed our relationship... create this space of acceptance and love.” (18:13)
• On creativity and differences within families:
  “She’s a walking Excel spreadsheet. And I’m like, you know, if you take mice and put them in a cardboard box and tip it over, that is me.” (15:41)
• The irreverent fun of children’s books:
  “My only friend in the whole world is a hippo named Boo Boo Butt.” (Mariah Carey, 09:44)

---

Memorable Timestamps

• 03:06–04:27: Lighthearted bookshelf curation & “trash books” up high
• 05:01–06:21: Mariah’s owl rescue story & its spiritual resonance
• 09:20–09:49: Group reading from “The Book with No Pictures” – pure laughter
• 13:19–13:31: Deep dive into fantasy audiobooks and “Court of Thorn and Roses”
• 15:07–18:36: Mariah’s journey co-writing with her daughter and lessons learned
• 22:17–23:08: Writing process, note cards, and biography work on Stockdale
• 23:22–23:48: Reading as inspiration and foundation for writing

---

Tone & Language

The tone is conversational, warm, humorous, and unguardedly personal. The participants express affection for books, family, and the process of storytelling, whether for children, personal growth, or pure escapism.

---

Summary

This episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast is a vibrant literary exploration—part book club, part memoir, part masterclass in parenting, writing, and self-acceptance. The lively interplay between Ryan Holiday, Mariah Carey, Julia Baird, and their guest moves seamlessly through topics like bookshelf aesthetics, the pleasures of reading with children, poignant stories of loss and connection, and unexpected emotional healing found in collaborative creativity. Fantasy fiction and “romantasy” take center stage, as does the enduring wisdom found in stories shared, books gifted, and the family bonds they foster. For anyone who loves books or wants a reminder of literature's power to connect, heal, and inspire, this episode delivers with wit, depth, and genuine joy.

Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

One of the things I try to do towards the end of the year, it's something my parents taught me, is like, things slow down. You finally can think about things for a minute. I want to pick something or someone to be consciously generous to. When we're out, we're traveling on Christmas Day. I love to tip big, but one of the things I love to do with my family is we pull up GiveWell and we find a highly effective charity and we donate money to it. Right. Sometimes when you're doing charitable donations, like, does it help? Does it make a difference? You donate to this fund or that fund. But one of the things that's so empowering about GiveWell is they put a number on the effectiveness, right? You know, that it's making a difference. Which is why over 150,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to give more than two and a half billion dollars. And rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 300,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. Which is why when I'm thinking about making a charitable donation, I check GiveWell first. You find all their research and recommendations on their site for free. And thanks to the donors that sponsor that research, GiveWell doesn't take a cut of your tax deductible donation when you give it to one of the recommended funds. This is your first gift through GiveWell. You can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. And to claim your match, you just go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter the Daily Stoic at checkout. Make sure they know you heard about GiveWell from the Daily Stoic. To get your donation matched, givewell.org code the Daily Stoic to donate or find out more. So on Monday, I had a talk. I was flying to Florida for a talk, but I took the kids to school. I worked at the office and then I picked them up from school. We went to Whole Foods, did our weekly grocery shopping as the boys and I do every week. And then I drove. We met at a parking lot near the airport. I handed my wife the kids and all the groceries. And then I flew to Florida, flew home, and then when I got back the next night, I made myself a sandwich from the groceries that I had just bought. And actually the week before, I took em to Whole Foods for a weekly thing and I had a phone call I had to do. They played upstairs on the playground. The Whole Foods headquarters here in Austin has a second story playground. They played on that while I Did my phone call and then together we went and did all our grocery shopping. I love whole foods. I don't have to worry about what I'm feeding my kids. They love the, you know, the hot bar. That's what they love. They love getting macaroni. My son loves orange chicken. They love the sushi there. We love whole foods in our family. And you should make whole foods your destination for all things wellness, including high quality organic options to help you make better choices. Their 365 brand has delicious and wallet friendly varieties of ready to eat salad kits. Plus ready to heat rice and bean blends to pair with lean proteins. You can also save big on supplements and vitamins this month. Check out their high quality multivitamins, probiotics and protein powders for all your New Year's resolutions and goals. Shop all things wellness at Whole Foods Market it.

[Mariah Carey]

Wow, this is. Hi. How are you guys?

[Julia Baird]

So this is. So this is the.

[Mariah Carey]

It's beautiful.

[Julia Baird]

So this is how it started and wow.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh. So this is where somebody tried to pull the book.

[Julia Baird]

He was like up here. He's like trying to, I think this one out.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh my gosh.

[Julia Baird]

So yeah, but this is, what is it? 2,000 books. 2,000 books. 4,000 screws, 6 gallons of glue and it weighs.

[Mariah Carey]

This is a great cookbook, by the way.

[Julia Baird]

Is it really?

[Mariah Carey]

That's an excellent cookbook.

[Ryan Holiday]

They get.

[Julia Baird]

The books get worse as it goes up because you can't read the titles as easily.

[Mariah Carey]

So did you actually order them in terms of where they would go?

[Julia Baird]

So yes, sort of like the worst books are up top because like they, they give you lots of like that.

[Ryan Holiday]

One'S called free stuff for Seniors.

[Julia Baird]

You know, like there's some trash books that are up closer to the top.

[Mariah Carey]

Well, when I ordered the books for my podcast studio.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

Because I wanted it all beige and white.

[Julia Baird]

Yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's what they.

[Mariah Carey]

Specially all Mariah Carey and Daniel still books. I'm like, please don't read this. Please don't look at that. Like, don't look. When intellectual people come in, you can.

[Julia Baird]

Also kind of see like which books were really popular at different. So it's like kind of humbling and inspiring to think like whatever books were popular at a period, at some point they all end up at Goodwill and then, and then that's how they end up in stuff like this.

[Mariah Carey]

It's so true.

[Julia Baird]

So what we normally do is you kind of just walk through and pick out some books that the person might like or if they're books you like or you have been thinking about reading. Just.

[Mariah Carey]

I want to read the new one by the guy who did the Fox them All.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, I want that book.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, I'm a huge bar. Bar owl person.

[Julia Baird]

You like barn owls, Bob Bard. Oh, yes.

[Mariah Carey]

Because I live in Vermont and they're all over. This is not one, but I'm drawn to this. My husband and I actually hit an owl on our anniversary. And it's this. It was a very life changing experience. We didn't hit the l. The car in front of us hit an owl on a rainy night on our 27th wedding anniversary. And I jumped out of the car in the pouring rain and the thing was laid across the ground and it was raining, raining, raining, raining. We were in the back roads in Vermont and I straddled it and went to scoop it up. And it turned its face around and looked me in the eyes. And the pouring rain was coming down. And it was on our 27th wedding anniversary. And luckily a guy in a pickup truck pulled over and was like, don't grab it. The talons. And I was so in the moment with this bird that I didn't even know where I was. So he came over with a towel, we scooped him up, and I held him in my lap for 45 minutes while we drove home. And then put him in a laundry basket. And you put a. And his wing was like this. It was so sad. And there's a beautiful rescue non profit. I think it's Vin's in Vermont. And they came and got him and sadly.

[Julia Baird]

Oh, he didn't make it.

[Mariah Carey]

Yeah. But I feel like there was a. Because it was on our 27th wedding anniversary, there was a deeply spiritual thing that was happening around the owl that night.

[Julia Baird]

Well, this is slightly lighter, but this is my favorite bird book. It's called My kids love it because they like to get their grandparents to read it because it's just got curse words in it.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, my God. Scottish face. I have a fourth grade boy's sense of humor.

[Julia Baird]

Okay, me too. So it's like my favorite book. It's amazing. We read it most nights before bed.

[Mariah Carey]

I love this. I love this. Thank you.

[Julia Baird]

All right, so take that one.

[Mariah Carey]

I need your book.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, I'll give you wisdom.

[Mariah Carey]

I need your book.

[Julia Baird]

Have you read Phosphorescence? Do you know Julia Baird? She's an Australian writer.

[Ryan Holiday]

She's great.

[Julia Baird]

I love that book. Oh, take that.

[Mariah Carey]

I would love this. Okay. What about fantasy porn?

[Julia Baird]

Like Romantasy? Is that what you like?

[Mariah Carey]

I'm talking about, like, roses.

[Julia Baird]

Are you here? She is. The expert on all of those.

[Mariah Carey]

I love those.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, have you read A Gift from.

[Julia Baird]

The Sea by Anne Marilyn?

[Mariah Carey]

No.

[Ryan Holiday]

All right.

[Julia Baird]

You always miss this.

[Mariah Carey]

What's that? What the hell is that? What is that? Okay. Sorry.

[Julia Baird]

Yes, it's very annoying. It does this all the time.

[Mariah Carey]

Where's the kids section?

[Julia Baird]

Kids section? Oh, it's back here.

[Mariah Carey]

Yeah.

[Julia Baird]

I don't know if we have the new Charlie Mackazee book because I love the Boys and Fox.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, I do, too. I actually wanted to get it to send it to my son because he's feeling kind of sad.

[Julia Baird]

So this was most recently a restaurant, this kitchen.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, wow. How long ago is this a restaurant?

[Julia Baird]

Well, the building's like, 130 years old, but this was a restaurant, like, 10 years ago. And so this was like.

[Mariah Carey]

I love the little table. What do you have down here?

[Julia Baird]

What do we got?

[Mariah Carey]

What book did you like to read? Your kids?

[Julia Baird]

What do we like? Well, I love the Boy, the Fox, the Horse and the Mole. My son is obsessed with Greek history, so we read a lot of that. We've read Ferdinand.

[Mariah Carey]

Ferdinand.

[Julia Baird]

Ferdinand is good. This one's really good.

[Mariah Carey]

I don't know this book.

[Julia Baird]

This is new.

[Mariah Carey]

And mostly because my kids are 26.

[Ryan Holiday]

I know.

[Julia Baird]

There's like. There's the ones you. You. There's the ones of each era.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Julia Baird]

The new ones. Have you read the book with no pictures? Did you? Was that a no, But I would.

[Mariah Carey]

Go right for the Butter Face joke.

[Julia Baird]

Butter Face is good.

[Mariah Carey]

What's a book with no pictures? What do you mean, a book with no pictures?

[Julia Baird]

You know BJ Novak from the Office? He wrote a book called the Books with no Pictures.

[Mariah Carey]

Really? And it has no pictures?

[Julia Baird]

Yes.

[Mariah Carey]

That's a word that's hard for me to say.

[Julia Baird]

Good. The book with no pictures is incredible. So the idea is, like, you know what?

[Mariah Carey]

I'm already feeling vibes of what? Guess.

[Julia Baird]

I don't know.

[Mariah Carey]

How old are you?

[Julia Baird]

I'm 38, I think.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, I'm a lot older than you. I'm 57. Wow.

[Julia Baird]

What are the vibes?

[Mariah Carey]

I was starting, like, just this made me think of my childhood. I was obsessed. Obsessed with shell. So silver.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, it does.

[Mariah Carey]

There's something about this that.

[Julia Baird]

Yes, but.

[Ryan Holiday]

So the.

[Julia Baird]

The idea is. Here, I'll show you. The idea is. Is like, you know, you have to read the book to the kids.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Julia Baird]

So it starts as a normal book. Yeah. This is A book with no pictures. Might seem. No. Like, no fun. Seems boring. Except they have to read everything the book says, no matter what. So it gets crazier and crazier, and you have to say all this ridiculous shit.

[Mariah Carey]

Yes. I am a monkey. My head is made of blueberry pizza.

[Julia Baird]

Right. I eat ants off the rug. So it's just. The kids love it, right? Because they're seeing the play.

[Mariah Carey]

My only friend in the whole world is a hippo named Boo Boo Butt.

[Julia Baird]

This is a massive.

[Mariah Carey]

This is amazing.

[Julia Baird]

People love it. It's a great book. He's awesome.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, and then.

[Julia Baird]

Because look at all this. This is one of my favorites.

[Mariah Carey]

What's this? I need a new butt.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Julia Baird]

Because it has a crack in it.

[Mariah Carey]

Wait, but wait, what? What has a crack? He doesn't have a crack.

[Ryan Holiday]

Who is. Butt has a crack in it. That's why he's. Wait, hold on.

[Mariah Carey]

Do I open this and it farts?

[Julia Baird]

I think you press the. Where's the fart? It does fart somehow.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, my God. Oh, you don't pull out the tab? Because I bet there's a tab in here.

[Ryan Holiday]

Maybe it's off.

[Mariah Carey]

See, it's off.

[Julia Baird]

There we go. It's great. It's a classic.

[Mariah Carey]

I have never. I'm turning that off so I don't blow it all on.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, you take that one.

[Mariah Carey]

You know, now I'm just gonna. Now this is easier than a whoopee cushion.

[Ryan Holiday]

It is.

[Julia Baird]

It is.

[Mariah Carey]

Be like David Faxing. Stop farting.

[Julia Baird]

Okay, so you like. You like romantic set. What do you like in.

[Mariah Carey]

I've got a lot. Like, I already have a stack of books that I feel guilty that I haven't read, so you can't give me too many.

[Ryan Holiday]

As you know, it's the start of the new year. We all have our resolutions. We want to exercise more. We want to eat healthier. One of mine is, I love running, but I want to do some other working out. I want to be a little stronger in 2026. Well, that's where today's sponsor comes in. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home. With one sleek system, it's designed to reduce your mental load, which, frankly, is part of the reason I don't work out. It's like running this simple. I'm just going to do it. I go this place, I turn around, and then I come home. Right. I don't have to think about how much weight I'm going to lift, how many sets I'm going to do. Am I doing it right? Is my form right? With tonal, there's none of that. There's no focusing on workout planning. And there's no second guessing your form either. Tonal gives you real time coaching cues to dial in your form and help you lift safely and effectively. And they set the optimal weight for every move and adjust in 1 pound increments as you get stronger. So you're always challenged. And right now, tonal is offering our listeners 200 bucks off their Tonal purchase with promo code TDS. Go to Tonal.com and use promo code TDS for 200 bucks off your purchase. That's Tonal.com promo COD code TDS for $200 off.

[Mariah Carey]

Like, you know the book that I read that I just loved, The Emperor of Gladness, Ocean Bond.

[Julia Baird]

I've not read that. The Emperor of Gladness.

[Mariah Carey]

It is so good.

[Julia Baird]

Okay.

[Mariah Carey]

It is written by a guy. The whole storyline is a guy growing up outside of Hartford and all these things happen to him. His mom does nails for a living. And it's a story about the beauty and dignity of someone's life who feels like they're on the edges of society. And it centers around this group of people who all meet working at a Boston market.

[Julia Baird]

I do a Boston Market.

[Mariah Carey]

Me too. And it was. And they become like a family for a while in terms of supporting each other and all the stories interacting. And it is one of the most mesmerizingly beautiful books.

[Julia Baird]

You've been. You've been. Someone, Someone asked where this money? Oh.

[Mariah Carey]

So here she is. I'm like, give me the fairy corps.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Oh, you want. You want the good book?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

Court of Thorn and Roses, baby. Although I like the graphic audio.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

How's it going? Have you listened to the graphic audio?

[Mariah Carey]

Oh my God, yes.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Okay.

[Ryan Holiday]

I love it.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

But it also creeps me out a little bit how there's like the noises in the background.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, I love. I'm addicted to it. I love it.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Listen to it more than once?

[Mariah Carey]

No, but my entire family, my husband's listened to it. They like it's.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

He read the first, he's halfway through the second one and then he.

[Mariah Carey]

I haven't read him. I've only listened to graphic. Uhhuh.

[Julia Baird]

I just probably actually that I still don't have time to squeeze in like another thousand page book.

[Mariah Carey]

Well, just listen in your craft.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's a great.

[Julia Baird]

I think that's a good idea.

[Mariah Carey]

I think in your mind it's a movie. In your mind.

[Julia Baird]

I didn't feel qualified to make any recommendations in this category, but what would you do? Why not?

[Mariah Carey]

I've already read 4th Wing. I've already read the whole Court of Thorn and Roses series.

[Ryan Holiday]

I. Okay.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Do you want more plot or more smut?

[Mariah Carey]

What's your favorite?

[Guest Fantasy Author]

I. This one's very smutty, but I really like it.

[Mariah Carey]

Okay, great. I'll take it.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then.

[Mariah Carey]

Is it the first.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

This is the first one.

[Mariah Carey]

Okay.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

The prequel series is really good. And then if you like those in those vein, I would also recommend Direbound.

[Julia Baird]

Do you have the door one?

[Mariah Carey]

What? Door one? What? Door one?

[Guest Fantasy Author]

No, it's not romantasy. There's this genre of. I would say it's more of, like, an art form where there's, like, romance with sentient objects.

[Ryan Holiday]

What?

[Guest Fantasy Author]

And it's Ryan's favorite thing, really.

[Mariah Carey]

Does it improve your sex life with your husband?

[Guest Fantasy Author]

But it makes for an interesting conversation.

[Julia Baird]

Okay.

[Mariah Carey]

What is it? I don't have it. Why do you not have to carry.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Those in the bookstore?

[Mariah Carey]

Why not?

[Julia Baird]

Just.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Do you ever. Do you read just romance? Do you like fantasy?

[Mariah Carey]

No, I like fantasy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

I like fantasy.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

This is because.

[Mariah Carey]

Because I actually want to write a fantasy trilogy. That's the next thing I'm gonna take.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

The next thing.

[Julia Baird]

That's a good challenge.

[Mariah Carey]

Yeah. I've never thought about, like, I'm always. I'm so impressed by world building and by what it must take to just imagine a world that doesn't exist.

[Julia Baird]

I know.

[Mariah Carey]

And so I just thought it'd be really fun to challenge myself to try to do that. And my daughters and I have been working on a concept, honestly, for 10 years.

[Ryan Holiday]

Let them.

[Julia Baird]

With your daughter, right?

[Mariah Carey]

Yes. Yes. With every word. We argued over every word, and we are the exact opposite person. She's a walking Excel spreadsheet. And I'm like, you know, if you take mice and put them in a cardboard box and tip it over, that is me. And I would say, well, what about this story? She's like, that's a dumbest story. Nobody my age cares about that. And we would. You. And then I would leave. And then we'd be, let her. Let her. Let her and let me go. Heal my relationship. And it was incredible, Ryan, because we. You know how you have people in your life that you love, but there's this mismatch, and you kind of feel like, why can't we just get along? Why is there always something?

[Julia Baird]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

And writing this book together.

[Julia Baird]

How old is she?

[Mariah Carey]

26. And she's the one that came up with Let me. I first was writing a book that was Let them.

[Julia Baird]

Let, Let, let, let, let.

[Mariah Carey]

And I finished. I'm like, this book sucks.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, that's the other piece of it.

[Mariah Carey]

Yeah. And I said to her, would you do some research for me? Because she was doing marketing research for a cybersecurity firm as a job. And she said, yes. I, you know, can I, can I talk? I don't want to work for you, but I'll do this for some extra cash. And I gave her four weeks. She came back 36 hours later with a 28 page spreadsheet.

[Julia Baird]

And you must have been so proud. Like, first off, it's good for the book, but you must have just been, like, proud.

[Mariah Carey]

Well, first, as a parent, here's what I'll tell you. She is so hard on herself. And when I saw that, my heart sank because for the first time I actually recognized that she is such a brain with horsepower that if it's not aimed at something, shames at herself.

[Julia Baird]

Right.

[Mariah Carey]

And so I felt as a mom that I've gone 25 years with this human being and I actually never understood this.

[Ryan Holiday]

But that's beautiful.

[Mariah Carey]

Beautiful. It's beautiful. But she said with this 28 page spreadsheet and all these citations, I said, I want you to do research. Something's missing. Don't tell me why people love it. Tell me what's not working.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

And she came back and said, said you can't write the book. And I said, why? And she said, well, when people say let them, they love it because you feel superior and you kind of have an edge. But then you start to notice your siblings don't call you back. You notice that your friends aren't reciprocal. You notice your boss is a dick. And she said, this is making people lonely, right? Because they don't know what to do.

[Julia Baird]

What's the other part?

[Mariah Carey]

And she's like, there has to be a second part. And I'm like, okay, what is it? She's like, well, let me.

[Julia Baird]

Right.

[Mariah Carey]

So then the second part was born. I'm like, you have to write this with me. And we spent 11 months working together. She lived at home in Vermont. I would not recommend this, by the way. And it was incredible. It healed our relationship, honestly, because we were forced to be with each other all day and work through the emotions and judgments that we had with one another.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

All day long. Create this space of acceptance and love. And for a mom, allowing her her emotions. And by the way, as we were writing the love chapter, her boyfriend of two years, the end of the aisle guy, broke up with her. And so she rips up that say, I hate this fucking thing. What am I supposed to do. Let him sleep with people. Let him walk out of my life. We wrote the entire, entire love section while she was going through the biggest heartbreak of her life and applying the advice, and it was unbelievable, and it helped me as the mom. Just let her be sad, let her be depressed. Don't fix this. Let her have this experience and just be with her without trying to fix it. It was. It was unbelievable.

[Julia Baird]

You want to see my office real fast? And then we got to sign. Yeah, we got to sign.

[Mariah Carey]

Yes. Okay.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

This one.

[Mariah Carey]

Get over here.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

I think most of these books, most books in the genre are the. Geared towards younger audiences. This woman, her, like, kid went off to college, and she's like, talks about. She's in it, but it's fantasy. She, like, gets this house, and the house has all these magical things. It's like, really the one of the only series that I've read that is like, an adult. An adult woman who's going through a midlife crisis.

[Mariah Carey]

I love this. Thank you. Excited?

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Do you want me to hold those.

[Ryan Holiday]

So you can go walk me? Right.

[Mariah Carey]

I want you to also sign the insides of the fantasy books for me. Like, so if I flip them open, like, I got a little note for you. Would you carry those? I can hold.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

I can carry them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Really?

[Mariah Carey]

I, of course, had to have the f. Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. Everybody needs the fart book. I got the dung swearing birds. This one.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

Phosphorescence.

[Mariah Carey]

I just have a thing with owls.

[Julia Baird]

So I don't know.

[Mariah Carey]

That is.

[Guest Fantasy Author]

This is really beautiful. My brother recommended this because the illustrations are so good.

[Mariah Carey]

Okay.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah. Likes this one. This is the coolest part.

[Mariah Carey]

Whoa. Wait, what's happening?

[Ryan Holiday]

Ben. Wow.

[Mariah Carey]

Well, hi. How are you doing?

[Julia Baird]

Are you. I'm excellent. Eric ordered all your books.

[Mariah Carey]

Thank you, Eric. Thank you. This. It's up here.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, this is the. This is the second.

[Mariah Carey]

So did you buy his fellow?

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, we bought these two, and then we bought that. That third one during the.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, for the podcast.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, we didn't do that.

[Mariah Carey]

Wow. That is not the code right there. That is not that window.

[Julia Baird]

No, none of this is probably. But yeah. So this is. That's my next book that I'm working on. So this is where I write. All my books are all messed up right now, but this is where it. Where it goes.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Julia Baird]

Oh, look, you have an owl do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Baird]

Wisdom. Yeah, that's the symbol of. An owl is the symbol of wisdom. I have an owl tattoo, don't I? Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, wow.

[Julia Baird]

That's the. Of the four virtues, Wisdom. Is the most important.

[Mariah Carey]

The owl. That's my husband.

[Julia Baird]

He's the owl.

[Mariah Carey]

Yeah, my husband. That's just like owls. We have tons of bard owls on our property.

[Julia Baird]

I don't know if we have any owls. We get hawks and stuff. I don't think we have any owls.

[Mariah Carey]

Let me. Let me look in here. So you're mapping out your book. I have to do this too, visually. So what are you going to write about?

[Julia Baird]

I'm doing a biography of fantasy porn writers? Yes, exactly. No, I'm doing a biography. So that's the next one.

[Mariah Carey]

A biography?

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, like. Like a big.

[Mariah Carey]

Like an authorized one or I guess.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'm not authorized to know.

[Julia Baird]

I'm not like collaborating.

[Mariah Carey]

Is the person alive?

[Julia Baird]

No, the person's dead. Admiral James Stockdale. You know who that is?

[Mariah Carey]

That's the one who you're gonna give the speech about, right?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah. At the Naval Academy. Yeah.

[Mariah Carey]

Yes.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah. He was. So he spent seven years in a prison camp in North Vietnam. And then. Yeah. Like if you've read Good to great. The Jim Collins book. He's the Stockdo paradox. That's from him. He's this sort of interesting unsung, kind.

[Mariah Carey]

Of like have you. And so it's a whole different way.

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, I'm here and.

[Mariah Carey]

Can I ask a question?

[Julia Baird]

Yeah. I've never done a book laid out like this.

[Mariah Carey]

Oh, I noticed that you have Stockdale on all those.

[Julia Baird]

So is that all the note cards? Yeah, those are the note cards.

[Mariah Carey]

So is that so that if you have a thought but you're not in here, you can put it on.

[Julia Baird]

I do all my stuff on note cards. Like all my books and then so each book, like for the virtue series. So I had. And then I would just circle, which. Oh, I'm usually lately I've been working on more than one book at a time. So I. That way when I'm writing on note cards, I. I'm researching for more than one project at one time.

[Mariah Carey]

That's so cool. And which one is the fart book that you're writing?

[Julia Baird]

Yeah, I haven't written the fart book yet.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's next.

[Julia Baird]

Alright, let's go sign and then we'll go talk to our people.

[Mariah Carey]

Okay.

[Julia Baird]

Awesome. I read a lot. It's sort of my job.

[Ryan Holiday]

You.

[Julia Baird]

You can't write without reading. For almost 15 years now, once a month I send out an email with my favorite book recommendations for that month. Books that I've been reading, books that I've been going through. Books that changed my life, that inspired me. That I think connect to what's happening in the world and you can sign up right [e-mail] readinglist.

[Asana Sponsor Voice]

Working across teams is tough, but Asana helps you handle it. Asana AI can spot roadblocks and assign work to keep everything on track. That's how work gets handled. Visit us at asana.

[Ryan Holiday]

Com.