Mel Robbins | What Would a Stoic Think About The Let Them Theory?

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast – Detailed Episode Summary

Episode Title: Mel Robbins | What Would a Stoic Think About The Let Them Theory?
Host: Ryan Holiday
Guest: Mel Robbins
Date: January 3, 2026

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Overview

In this engaging conversation, Ryan Holiday and Mel Robbins explore the intersections between Stoicism and Mel's viral "Let Them Theory," delving into how these philosophies help people respond to external circumstances, personal challenges, and the chaos of modern life. The episode covers deep personal stories, practical mindset tools, discussions about success and jealousy, and applies Stoic principles to everyday relationships and societal challenges.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The "Let Them" Theory and Stoicism: Common Roots

• Introduction
  Ryan and Mel dive quickly into discussing the massive success of Mel’s latest book, "The Let Them Theory," and its surprising cultural resonance (07:40–09:00).
• Philosophical Overlap
  • Both Stoicism and the "Let Them" theory stress separating what’s within your control from what’s not, focusing internal energies on the former.
  • Mel describes how she essentially wrote a book about Stoicism "without truly being a master of Stoicism" (12:26).
  • Ryan notes: “It’s basically Stoicism, Buddhism, detachment ... the core of several things ... your happiness depends on you figuring out the difference between those two things.” (12:32)

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2. Coping with Comparison and Success

• Jealousy and the Challenge of Others’ Success

  • Ryan observes how difficult it can be to "let others succeed" and not fall into zero-sum thinking (10:08).
  • Mel candidly recounts how others’ successes would once trigger jealousy and self-doubt, confessing, “Of course it used to bother me… I have watched somebody else succeed ... and I have sat in the corner in my house and thought, ‘How did they get that?’” (11:07).
  • She emphasizes the need to focus on one’s own actions and growth: “You don’t have control over when things happen, but you have control over what you do about it.” (12:23)

• The Role of Timing and Preparation

  • Mel asserts, “I was building in the dark and I was learning and growing and failing and preparing for the at-bat moment that mattered … this book is not only the best thing I have ever done ... it’s the legacy that I’m going to leave on the planet.” (13:42)
  • Ryan frames delays as potentially leading to better outcomes or readiness (14:03–14:23).

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3. Defining and Measuring Success

• Stoic Metrics vs. External Validation
  • Ryan shares the Epictetus quote: "If you only run races where winning is up to you, you will always win." He cautions against hinging success on metrics out of one's control, like bestseller lists: "Stop trying to impress certain people or check certain boxes, because that’s what you’ve decided success is." (27:28–28:41)
  • Mel talks about setting her own measures for success. For her podcast, she doesn’t track downloads: “That’s not the metric that matters … The second you take your eye and you start measuring success up here, you take your eye off the ball of the thing in front of you.” (29:09–29:33)
  • When touring, she prioritizes fun, creativity, and improvement over ticket sales or profit. “How you measure success is actually everything.” (31:25)

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4. Letting Go: Acceptance and Empowerment

• Balancing Detachment and Agency
  • Ryan: “It’s a beautiful tension between resignation and empowerment ... you’re giving up your delusions of agency about the parts that are not up to you, and then seizing your agency on the parts ... that actually are up to you.” (34:31)
  • Mel: “The number one source of everybody's stress is other people ... I have tried to let things go, but to me, letting something go feels like losing ... [but] ‘Let Them’ and ‘Let Me’ are tools.” (35:15–36:24)
• Practical Application, Especially in Relationships
  • Mel describes transforming her relationship with challenging family members—accepting them exactly as they are. “The major mistake I was making is I thought if they changed, things would get better. What this taught me is the moment ... you force yourself to accept people as they are, which actually is love ... you create this space for acceptance and non-judgment.” (43:04–44:08)
• Stoic Parallels
  • Ryan reads Marcus Aurelius on dealing with difficult people: “Obstructing each other is unnatural. ... You let them be them, and you still have to make sure you are who you are supposed to be.” (41:16)

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5. Transforming Difficult Situations & People

• From Obstacle to Opportunity
  • Ryan shares Marcus Aurelius’s insight that obstacles can be opportunities (45:29–46:19): “This person who you are seeing as an obstacle ... is actually an opportunity.”
  • Mel observes, “Typically in a family dynamic, the most immature and challenging person has the most power. ... When you start to say, let them ... you are now the most powerful person in the room.” (47:00–47:56)
• Setting Boundaries, Not Allowing Abuse
  • Mel clarifies a misconception: “You’re not saying, I’m letting them do this to me. ... When you say ‘let them’, you’re forcing yourself to recognize that this is who this person is. ... If the number one rule about life is you cannot change another person ... then when you say let them, you have to see with clear and sober eyes the situation you’re in.” (49:49–51:23)

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6. Dealing With Critics and Letting Go of Others’ Opinions

• Letting Criticism Go
  • Ryan points out the inevitability of criticism when achieving large-scale success. Mel responds: “If you wake up every day and you do the best that you can ... you can lay your head down ... and be proud of yourself. And when you’re proud of yourself ... you don’t think about other people at all.” (53:29–54:09)
  • Mel: “I cared a lot about what people thought about me when I didn’t like me. ... That’s also why this [Let Them Theory] has been so transformative for people, because it reveals ... that the default is to stop and think about what somebody else might think, before you do anything.” (54:10–54:49)
  • People-pleasing is reframed as manipulation: “You’re acting in a way to try to manipulate people to like you. ... I used to be a huge people pleaser and this taught me that people are gonna think what they’re gonna think.” (55:31)

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7. Directing Energy Where It Matters

• Finite Resources and Control
  • Ryan: “We have a finite amount of energy. Are you gonna throw it against the brick wall over here, or … on the open road over here?... Are you gonna put it where it makes a difference?” (67:06)
  • Mel jokes on how good it feels to blame others, but recognizes it’s a trade-off: “It feels so good to complain … but it’s safer, for sure, because there’s no chance of you actually getting the thing.” (67:18–67:34)
  • Application isn’t instant: “Knowing it and then being able to apply it ... it takes a while ... gradual ability to apply it more and more in your life or the situations that actually matter.” (67:39–68:19)

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8. “Let Them” as Universally Relatable Tool

• Why the Theory Resonates
  • Mel credits its simplicity, tool-ish nature, and universal applicability: “There’s a very big difference between what you need to know or why things are happening and how to apply.” (68:20–68:48)
  • The theory is passed on by readers who want loved ones to let go of fruitless attempts to change others (69:01).

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9. Stoicism, Injustice, and Social Change

• Not Ignoring Real Problems
  • Ryan acknowledges criticism that Stoicism and the Let Them Theory can seem passive about injustice, but argues it’s about acting where you do have power:
    “Let evil come into the world, let untruth come into the world. But you have to say, not through me.” (69:47–70:04)
  • Mel echoes this: “The kind of transformative change ... never comes from the top. It always comes from within.” (70:07)
• Collective Illusions & Real Social Values
  • Mel describes guest Dr. Todd Rose’s research: 90% of people want similar things; the loudest—and most negative—voices merely dominate online, while most self-silence out of fear (72:26–74:28).
  • Social change, such as legalizing gay marriage or the Velvet Revolution, starts with individual values, then ripples outward.

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10. Community, Local Action, and Everyday Impact

• Finding Purpose Locally
  • Mel and Ryan stress “bringing the weather” with your presence and energy. Mel: “You can be a storm or you can be the sun ... when you set the tone ... that changes everybody around you.” (79:31–79:45)
  • Ryan: “Your kids are actually the place you’re going to have multi-generational impact.” (79:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mel Robbins: “You don’t have control over when things happen, but you have control over what you do about it.” (12:23)
• Ryan Holiday: “If you only run races where winning is up to you, you will always win.” (27:28)
• Mel Robbins: “How you measure success is actually everything.” (31:25)
• Ryan Holiday: “You’re giving up your delusions of agency about the parts that are not up to you, and then seizing your agency on the parts … that actually are up to you.” (34:31)
• Mel Robbins: “The major mistake I was making is I thought if they changed, things would get better. What this taught me is the moment ... you force yourself to accept people as they are, which actually is love ... you create this space for acceptance and non-judgment.” (44:08)
• Ryan Holiday: “This person who you are seeing as an obstacle ... is actually an opportunity.” (46:01)
• Mel Robbins: “You’re not saying, I’m letting them do this to me ... when you say let them, you’re forcing yourself to recognize that this is who this person is.” (49:49)
• Mel Robbins: “People are gonna think what they’re gonna think. They’re gonna say what they’re gonna say. ... Let them give them the dignity of their own experience and let me focus on living my life...” (55:31)
• Ryan Holiday: “We have a finite amount of energy ... Are you gonna put it where it makes a difference?” (67:06)
• Solzhenitsyn (via Ryan Holiday): “Let evil come into the world, let untruth come into the world. But you have to say, not through me.” (69:57)
• Mel Robbins: “You can be a storm or you can be the sun ... when you set the tone ... that changes everybody around you.” (79:31)

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Important Timestamps

• 07:40–09:00 – Setting up the conversation: Mel’s success, impact of her book
• 10:08–12:26 – Jealousy, comparison, control over others’ success
• 13:42–15:00 – Reflecting on timing, letting go, working in the dark
• 27:28–31:25 – Stoic ideas about success, redefining what counts, measuring outcomes
• 34:31–36:24 – Resignation vs. empowerment; practical application of letting go
• 41:16–44:08 – Marcus Aurelius passage; accepting difficult people; family dynamics
• 45:29–47:56 – Obstacles as opportunities; how power shifts when you detach
• 49:49–51:23 – Boundaries, misconceptions about “Let Them"
• 53:29–55:31 – Dealing with criticism, people-pleasing, approval-seeking
• 67:06–68:19 – Focusing energy where it matters; application takes time
• 69:47–70:07 – Stoicism and social responsibility: “Let untruth come into the world, but not through me.”
• 72:26–76:28 – Collective illusions, common values, self-silencing, local impact
• 79:31–79:52 – Bringing “the weather,” generational impact at home

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Tone & Language

• The conversation is authentic, personal, occasionally vulnerable, practical but philosophical, filled with humor and relatable anecdotes.
• Mel shares personal and sometimes painful stories in a candid, energetic tone.
• Ryan brings a mixture of philosophical rigor, humility, and practicality rooted in daily life.

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Summary

This episode offers a rich, highly relatable dialogue about the modern applications of Stoicism and radical acceptance, with Mel Robbins illustrating how her "Let Them" theory aligns with, and is informed by, ancient wisdom. Both speakers discuss handling envy, measuring success on your own terms, transforming frustration with others into opportunities for growth, and maintaining agency in the face of chaos or criticism. The episode is packed with stories, actionable advice, and many memorable, quotable moments—making it a fantastic resource for anyone seeking resilience, perspective, and peace in a turbulent world.

Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

So on Monday I had a talk.

[Ryan]

I was flying to Florida for a.

[Ryan Holiday]

Talk, but I took the kids to school. I worked at the office and then I picked them up from school. We went to Whole Foods, did our weekly grocery shopping as the boys and I do every week. And then I drove. We met at a parking lot near the airport. I handed my wife the kids and all the groceries. And then I flew to Florida, flew home. And then when I got back the next night, I made myself a sandwich from the groceries that I had just bought. And actually the week before I took them to Whole Foods for a weekly thing and I had a phone call.

[Ryan]

I had to do.

[Ryan Holiday]

They played upstairs on the, on the playground. The Whole Foods headquarters here in Austin has a second story playground. They played on that while I did my phone call. And then together we went and did all our grocery shopping.

[Ryan]

I love Whole Foods.

[Ryan Holiday]

I don't have to worry about what I'm feeding my kids.

[Ryan]

They, they love the, you know, the hot bar, that's what they love.

[Ryan Holiday]

They love getting macaroni. My son loves orange chicken. They love the sushi there. We love Whole Foods in our family. And you should make Whole Foods your destination for all things wellness, including high qual organic options to help you make better choices. Their 365 brand has delicious and wallet friendly varieties of ready to eat salad kits. Plus ready to heat rice and bean blends to pair with lean proteins. You can also save big on supplements and vitamins this month. Check out their high quality multivitamins, probiotics and protein powders for all your new Year's resolutions and goals. Shop all things wellness at Whole Foods Market. As you know, it's the start of the new year. We all have our resolutions. We wanna exercise more, we wanna eat healthier. One of mine is I love running.

[Ryan]

But I wanna do some other working out.

[Ryan Holiday]

I wanna be a little stronger in 2026. Well, that's where today's sponsor comes in. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home. With one sleek system, it's designed to reduce your mental load, which frankly is part of the reason I don't work out. It's like running is simple. I'm just go, go this place, I turn around and then I come home, right? I don't have to think about how much weight I'm gonna lift, how many sets I'm gonna do, am I doing it right?

[Ryan]

Is my form right?

[Ryan Holiday]

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[Ryan]

But one of the things that's so.

[Ryan Holiday]

Empowering about GiveWell is they put a number on the effectiveness, right? You know that it's making a difference. Which is why over 150,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to give more than two and a half billion dollars. And rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 300,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. Which is when I'm thinking about making a charitable donation. I check GiveWell first. You can find all their research and recommendations on their site for free. And thanks to the donors that sponsor that research, GiveWell doesn't take a cut of your tax deductible donation when you give it to one of the recommended funds. This is your first gift through GiveWell. You can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. And to claim your match, you just go to givewell.org and pick podcast. Then you enter the Daily Stoic at checkout. Make sure they know you heard about GiveWell from the Daily Stoic. To get your donation, match well.org code the Daily Stoic to donate or find out more. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics. Something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what.

[Ryan]

The week ahead Nate Brin. Hey, it's Ryan.

[Ryan Holiday]

Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. This is the first episode I am recording in the New Year. Yesterday we took a very frigid cold plunge in the Gulf of Mexico. I said that as it should be said. It was like 65 degrees. We try to start every year with the cold plunge.

[Ryan]

It's also the first day in the.

[Ryan Holiday]

New Year New youw Challenge, which I hope you are doing alongside us. My wife and kids and father in law all did it as Seneca did 2,000 years ago, throwing himself in the Virgo Aqueduct to start off the New Year. This is where his quote about treating the body rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind comes from. It's also what we build the challenge around. It's not too late to sign up. We haven't closed it just yet. You can sign [e-mail] challenge. We're already on today 2. As I'm recording this, we're picking a stoic word for the year.

[Ryan]

It's going awesome.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'm loving the community, I'm loving seeing you all in there. And if you procrastinated a little bit, hope you can still sign up and catch up very quickly. Getting ready for day three myself. Anyways, it's a new year and I was reading this article in the New York Times about the best selling books of the year. What had moved in publishing, what hadn't.

[Ryan]

And it's funny, I just had a.

[Ryan Holiday]

Call with my publisher about this and my agent was saying the first sign of a recession is that Bible sales go up. He'd learned this for many, many years in publishing and that was something confirmed in the article. So that was alarming. In slightly more positive news, there was a little section in the piece about Mel Robbins and it was saying that Mel Robbins book the Let Them theory had sold 2.7 million copies in 2025, which is insane. That's roughly how many copies the Daily Stoic has sold in 10 years. So it's a monster hit. And in fact I was in Greece this summer, walking along a pretty desolate beach in Ithaca, and I saw the green cover and I said, oh, is that the Let them theory? And of course it was.

[Ryan]

And I sent a picture to Mel.

[Ryan Holiday]

And she texted me back and she said, my daughter and I sat down and designed that cover to be something that would pop on a beach. And I said, well, mission accomplished. And we talked about this when she came out to Bastrop, Texas and back in October and we had a lovely session doing the podcast and I'm excited to bring that episode to you. I'm gonna split this up in two parts.

[Ryan]

So she came and sat in the.

[Ryan Holiday]

Studio, we had this conversation which I am bringing to you now. And then we did a little walk through the bookstore and then we walked across the street to the Bastrop Opera House where we did a live podcast. So I'll bring that later in the week. But for now, here is me and Mel Robbins talking about the Let them theory and st how the two connect with each other, how the two can inform each other. She passed along some interesting misconceptions about the Let them theory. She talked about why she's optimistic about the future amidst all the chaos in the world and she was just awesome. I love this conversation. I think you're going to like it. If you don't know who Mel Robbins is, well, you should. She is the host of the Mel Robbins Podcast, which is one of the biggest podcasts in the world. You've probably seen clips or heard audio from clips of them cause they get repurposed on Instagram and TikTok all the time. She has sold millions and millions of books and it is on pace to be the best selling nonfiction book of all time. She's also the author of the Multimillion copy Selling the Five Second Rule, the High Five Habit and seven number one audiobook releases on Audible. It's nuts. You can follow Mel on all platforms. She is elrobbins. We quickly sold out of all all of the copies she signed of the Let Them Theory in the Five Second Rule. But we still have some copies of the High Five Habit at the Painted Porch. You can grab that thanks to Mel and her team. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Happy New Year and I'll see you in the Daily Stoic New Year New Year Challenge. If you've already signed up and if you haven't, just grab [e-mail] challenge.

[Mel Robbins]

I didn't even know you have a book out right now.

[Ryan]

Tuesday.

[Mel Robbins]

It comes out this Tuesday.

[Ryan Holiday]

Last Tuesday.

[Mel Robbins]

Last Tuesday. How's it going? What's it about?

[Ryan]

It's about wisdom. So I just finished this series on the cardinal virtues. So I did courage, discipline, justice, wisdom. So I've been working on it since 2019, and I just finished the whole thing.

[Mel Robbins]

2019?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Because it was four books. It was supposed to be four books in four years, but I stretched it out a little bit, so it's been a lot.

[Mel Robbins]

That sounds like it. And how's it going?

[Ryan]

Good, I think.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, I can't wait to read it.

[Ryan]

So did you see the list this week?

[Mel Robbins]

No. Huh? What's today?

[Ryan]

Today? Yeah, it came out yesterday.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, it did?

[Ryan]

Yeah. So you're number one, I'm number two.

[Mel Robbins]

Fuck. Yes. Well, I'm seeing these.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I know.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

I was thinking I'll let you have the number one spot.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, tell you what, I would love to see you at number one.

[Ryan]

I've done it before. I did it on the last one on Right Thing right now that debuted number one. So once you do it once, it's nice, but everything else is gravy from there. How do you think about that? Cause I was thinking, like, I've done some work over the years of, like, not attaching so much to external stuff, but I do think, like, as far as, like, letting people do stuff, I think one of the things that people struggle with is letting other people succeed.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Right. Like, obviously you have no say over whether other people succeed, but letting it not bother you and letting your mind wrap around the idea that it's not zero sum, I feel like people struggle with that. People, me, myself included, Everybody.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. So there are so many things I want to say about that one question.

[Ryan]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

Because in the question, how do you deal with other people's success? How do you not let it bother you a lot? Of course it used to bother me.

[Ryan]

Sure.

[Mel Robbins]

And I think the reason why other people's success bothers you and the reason why you get jealous of what other people are achieving is because there is a part of you that dreams of having those things and that you are also simultaneously probably blocking yourself from taking the actions to create it, or you are talking yourself out of it, or, you know, the other thing that happens is I think part of the success is particularly of the let them theory, is because there's so many things about this book that I can explain and I can't explain, and there's something magical about the timing of this. And there have been so many times in the past where I have watched somebody else succeed. I Have watched somebody else be invited to interviews. I've watched somebody else's work be celebrated. And I have sat in the corner in my house and thought, how did they get that? Yes, what about me? Like, when's it gonna be my. Is there something wrong with me? And in those moments I would just say to myself, mel, you know, you don't have a control over when things happen, but you have control over what you do about it.

[Ryan]

Sure. That's the definition of stoicism, basically.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I'm excited to talk to you because I feel like I wrote a book about stoicism without truly being a master of stoicism.

[Ryan]

Well, you make. I mean, it's basically stoicism, Buddhism, detachment. It's the core of several things, which is the idea, like, there's some stuff that's up to you, some stuff that's not up to you, and your happiness depends on you figuring out the difference between those two things.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And for most of my life I did not know the difference between those two things. And so I was very unhappy and very self critical. And I remember so many times when I kept thinking, when is it going to be my turn? And then you would start to go, it's never going to be my turn. And I feel as though I can sit here now and say I actually understand why the success didn't come until now. And I personally believe because it wasn't meant to, I was building in the dark and I was learning and growing and failing and preparing for the at bat moment that mattered. And I see that very clearly now because this book is not only the best thing I have ever done and the thing I've worked the hardest at, I also know it's the legacy that I'm going to leave on the planet.

[Ryan]

Sure.

[Mel Robbins]

And it is something that is happening at a moment when for so many people, life feels so out of control. And the simplicity of it, the timing of it is part of the reason why it's become such this magical phenomena.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Part of what you're missing when you're like, well, when is it my turn? Why is it happening to them, not me, is you can't actually understand that there might actually be some future better moment that it's building towards and that if you got what you think you wanted right now, it would actually not be as good as it could be.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Well, this applies to dating too. You know that you kind of stay in something and tell yourself there's nothing better coming and you're afraid that there's nothing better that the best days are behind you and it's not true. And I don't say that because I think that just having a positive attitude is the way that you solve your problems. I say that because I know the settings in your mind impact the biology in your body. And they impact whether or not you feel encouraged to take the actions that change everything. I'll tell you a really good book story. So I remember when I first wrote my first book, the Five Second Rule. There was not a publisher that would touch it. Cause I was nobody. And I had this dumb thing that while I was speaking about it on stages, you know, I didn't have a social media following. I didn't have much of a newsletter list unless you were related to me. You were getting emails from me. And this was back in the day where. I kid you not, Ryan. So I'm the kind of person that when I want to win at something, I become a student of the thing I want to be the master of. And I obsess over what is everybody else doing. And then I figure out the formula and then I do what everybody else is doing. What everybody else was doing. Talking 2016 here. What everyone else was doing. Do you remember the days where you would create a paperback galley and then you would sell those in the back of an event? So here's what I was doing. I was schlepping duffel bags of paperback galley versions of the 5 second rule with me as I was going to one speaking event after the other. Duffel bag full of books. I bring em to the back of the conference room at the Marriott Courtyard. I got em out. I've got my freaking notepad. I was such a dummy. I didn't even use an Excel spreadsheet. And I would ask people to pay me $20. And I am going to give you a paperback version now. And then if you write down your address, I will order you a copy on Amazon and ship you a copy to your address with the $20 you sent me.

[Ryan]

Wow.

[Mel Robbins]

So I was manually trying to get pre sales.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

And I didn't know how else to do it.

[Ryan]

Yeah, sure.

[Mel Robbins]

And so I accumulate, I don't know, two, three thousand names.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And I'll never forget this story. So I am self publishing the book and I am self publishing the audiobook.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And I still think that there's some world where I might be able to make the New York Times list.

[Ryan]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't know that they don't really. Yes.

[Ryan]

You're not even being considered.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Not even being I'm not because I'm on nobody's, I'm nobody. I've got this incredible tool that's changing people's lives. I'm making a living speaking. I am paying off my debt because of it. This is amazing. I write the book because I can't answer people's emails anymore. And so I am so excited. I've done all these pre sales manually. I have a newsletter list of, I don't know, 10,000 people at this point. Mostly people that have been in the audiences at the Re Max local real estate thing. And this is the kind of speaking I'm doing. So all of a sudden the book is going to be released the last week in February 2017 and I get news two weeks beforehand that Tony Robbins has moved his book up six months and is releasing on the same day. Yeah, and just to put in perspective, at this point in my life, every event I went to, people would ask me, are you his wife? And so I've never met him. And I to this day I've never met him. And I have absolutely like hi Tony. But he was just sort of this kind of figures. I'm like, can somebody just please see me? Can somebody recognize me? So for the book comes out, I blast my email list. I also have a couple clients speaking clients that have agreed to buy like a couple hundred books that week, pointing them all to Amazon. Cause not a single bookstore has the book in it. I have recorded the audiobook and my husband has gone to Amazon.com and found ACX which is Amazon's audiobook publishing platform and he has uploaded the audiobook that we have recorded to Amazon so long. And the short of it is the book comes out, all the pre sales we had manually put in go out the book immediately lists as unavailable.

[Ryan]

Because they hadn't printed enough.

[Mel Robbins]

No, because we had worked with a self publisher to print like 15,000 copies back in the day around 2017. If they got a flood of orders, they had no way to connect the dots between what was actually happening in inventory. So they just immediately put it close for business sign up. So I have seven speeches that week all lined up. I'm traveling from Omaha to Vegas to Reno to every little thing to give a speech. I am planning on telling the audiences to buy the book. It's not available.

[Ryan]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

It's your worst nightmare airport. I land in, there's Tony's book. There it is. There's the Robins everybody cares about. And I remember the day that the New York Times list came out. I was in Salt Lake City, and I had landed, and I was coming down the escalator, and I got a phone call. Hey, the list came out. You didn't make it. Yeah, of course I didn't make it.

[Ryan]

Yeah, right. You didn't even know the game.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't know if you've ever done this, but have you ever walked into a public bathroom and walked into a stall and sat down on a toilet in your pants and cried?

[Ryan]

I have not. No.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, well, so I have. I came down the escalator. Everybody's there with their welcome home from your mission signs. I hang up the phone, I haul my iPhone across the luggage area. I walk straight for the women's bathroom, and I cried. And I thought, I am the world's biggest idiot. Like, I am an idiot. Like, why? When is it gonna work out? Like, I have been working so hard to get out of debt. This book is like, this rule is making a difference. Like, I'm a good person. Like, I'm trying hard. Like, when is it gonna be my turn? And I had forgotten about the audiobook right now. Here's the interesting thing. It took, like, three weeks to get it all sorted out with Amazon, because I didn't know who to call.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ryan]

There is no one to call.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Even when you have a publisher, there's no one to call. And I just was like, I guess I failed. And here's what I kept saying to myself. And this is what I want to say to absolutely anybody that is at a moment where they see everybody else succeeding. And you're saying, when is it going to be my turn? Why isn't this happening? I'm a good person. I'm working hard. I don't get it. But I kept saying to myself, I refuse to believe that if you work this hard and you are a kind person that is doing their best, I refuse to believe that it's not going to work out. I have to believe that this is leading me somewhere incredible. I just don't know where yet. And that little setting, this must be leading me somewhere. I just don't know where yet. It helped me to keep going. And long story short, the book, like, didn't really sell at all for the first, I don't know, six weeks or whatever. And then all of a sudden, an envelope arrives in the mailbox from Audible. And I was like, what is this? And I was like, oh, wait a minute. Oh, the audiobook. And I opened up the envelope, and it was like, $25,000, and we were still profoundly in debt. I mean, we were chipping away at the debt that we. And I mean, I remember I was like falling out of my audiobooks. And so I. From that failed book launch, I discovered the power of audiobooks. And I also discovered a completely different business model in publishing because in 2017, I self published an audiobook. And that audiobook, and the reason why the check was so big is because every bit of my marketing effort that went to Amazon, the only thing available was the audiobook. So people bought that. And that went on to become the most successful self published audiobook in history. It also made the five Second Rule the fifth most read book of the entire year on Amazon. It has never made the New York Times bestseller list and probably never will.

[Ryan]

Because it's never qualified.

[Mel Robbins]

Never qualified. And I don't care because in that experience, which was excruciating, I discovered the thing that was meant for me. And so in life, for me, it has helped me profoundly because it is you against you. I do believe that success is a matter of not quitting and that if you can hang in there long enough and you don't put a deadline for when you're gonna achieve the things that you hope to achieve, I believe there is a really, like, I'm talking 90% chance you're gonna make it happen.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Foreign.

[Ryan Holiday]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I actually just finished my online therapy session just a few minutes ago. The year's coming to an end. I guess I could have pushed it till January, but I thought, you know what? No. I want the holidays to go well. I want to be focused on what I should be focused on. I want to take care of myself. I want to get better. And that's where today's sponsor, BetterHelp, comes in. Therapy is a great way to get a unbiased perspective on your life. It's how you can get a weight off your shoulders. It's so you can focus on the future. It's so you can break old patterns and be who you want to be in 2026. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. They've served more than 5 million people all over the world. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct. They are fully licensed in the and they even do the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. If you aren't happy with your therapist, you can switch to a different one at any time from their recommendations. If you want to leave some stuff behind, leave it in the past, leave it in 2025. Well, BetterHelp can help you do that. And you can sign up right now for 10% [e-mail] DailyStoicPod that's betterhelp.com DailyStoicpod so we had a unusual little first world problem in our family. We built a little house down on the Gulf Coast. Almost done. And now we're in the process of furnishing it. And we had to get mattresses for all the rooms. And so it was like, what mattresses do we want? And I was asking a friend, you know, what mattress do you have? Do you have a mattress you love? And they were like, I love Helix. And as it happens, that's who we grabbed a house full of mattresses from. And they are, coincidentally enough, today's sponsor. It's obvious why people love their Helix mattresses. They're not just comfortable, they're comfortable for a reason. You fill out this quiz that matches you with the perfect mattress based on your preferences and your sleep needs. We ended up getting the midnight mattress since it's got that medium firmness. It's not too firm, not too soft. And as it happens, it's their best selling model. Helix is the most awarded mattress brand. It's been tested and reviewed. Forbes and Wired, they've got free shipping, seamless delivery. Like, honestly, the mattresses came sooner than we were thinking. We were doing this all. And then like the mattresses arrived sooner than the beds, which was awesome. Helix delivers the mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US and you can rest easy with the Happy with Helix guarantee that ensures seamless returns and exchanges. It's a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure that you're completely satisfied with your new mattress and includes one 20 night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. Go to helixsleep.com stoic for 27% off. That's helix.com stoic for 27 percent off. Just make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helix.com stoic.

[Ryan]

Well, one of the things that Stoics talk about is that it matters what race you're trying to run. So one of the lines from Epictetus, which I think about a lot, he says, if you only run races where winning is up to you, you will always win. And so the problem is, oh no.

[Mel Robbins]

That'S a good thing.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we're mostly running races where winning is not up to us. So if you're trying, if the race you're trying to win is the New York Times bestseller list or the Nobel Peace Prize selection committee or, you know, something where some committee or gatekeeper or somebody other than you decides what that success is. Well, then maybe you'll get lucky. But you probably won't. If the race you're running is trying to make something that actually reaches, like, real human beings, that race is much more up to you. You have a much better chance.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay.

[Ryan]

So the thing you should quit is stop trying to impress certain people or check certain boxes, because that's what you've decided success is. When you redefine it. It's over here. Then all that hard work and effort is actually directed at something you were working extremely hard in, a thing that it was actually impossible for you to win. Because I didn't know. Yeah, you're literally. The work you're doing does not qualify for the arcane, complicated black box metrics.

[Mel Robbins]

But can we go back to your original question? Right. Because you just gave the second answer to what I was gonna say about success. I am one of the most intentional people other than you, that you will ever meet.

[Ryan]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

And I always think about the outcome and then try to reverse engineer a way to get there. But here's what matters about success. What is the outcome you're measuring?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And for me, like, you just asked me about the list. It came out. I didn't even know.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right, right.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't have the metrics to our podcast because that's not the metric that matters. Once a week, I'll say to, like, our COO or my executive producer that I've worked with for 10 years, Tracy, I'll be like, so, how are we doing? We doing okay?

[Ryan Holiday]

Just.

[Ryan]

Is there anything bad I need to know about?

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Because the second you take your eye and you start measuring success up here, you take your eye off the ball of the thing in front of you that's creating the impact and the success you were seeking in the first place. And so I think it's really important, and I've gotten better and better and better at this in understanding what does success look like on my terms. And I don't do a project at all until I define what success would look like. So, for example, when we decided to do our first tour last year, I had very simple goal. I wanna have a lot of fun doing this. I want to challenge myself creatively because I've never done anything like this. I go and give a one hour keynote in front of a corporate audience. I'm like. I'm like a human Defibrillator waking people up at a corporate event at 10:00 in the morning. You know that job? I've never been in front of a drunk audience on a Friday night. For entertainment.

[Ryan]

Yeah. People who chose to be there.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes, exactly. I also said I want every single show to get better so that on the closing night at the Apollo Theater in London that we can say that was our best show. I want the audience to be gobsmacked. I want people to be so shocked by what they just experienced because they were not expecting that. And I don't want to lose too much money. And every time I would say that on a call, my business partners, my sister in law. Would you please stop saying that. Turns out we lost a lot of money even though it was a sold out tour because production's very expensive and we learned a lot and we achieved everything. I didn't say I wanted to sell it out. I didn't say I wanted to make a lot of money. And how you measure success is actually everything.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, right.

[Ryan]

Because it changes whether you're dependent on the gods or luck or whatever smiling on you or whether you can will it into existence or not.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, and what's interesting about this phenomenon in this book is that there are so many, many unexplainable things that have happened that could never have been orchestrated that are so magical that I feel, I feel that my job was writing the book and now my job is to sit back and to as this thing is like a rocket ship. To sit back as if you're in an airplane and look out the window and recognize like I literally feel ancestors and ancient wisdom circling around me like the dots on that book carrying this message through. Because I do believe that this is a timeless message. Even though the theory is something that I created and it's a new tool, I believe that ideas have a life of their own. I think Elizabeth Gilbert talks about this a lot and, and that for whatever reason this, I'm the one that became the messenger in a way to repackage all of this research and ancient wisdom in a way that people could use it now.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Nobody knows where ideas come from. And there's something, I think, especially when it works, it's healthy to be like, yeah, I don't know where it came from. It's good to own when things don't work. And then I think it's important when it does work to go, here's the ways I was lucky. The magic of creativity. And then someone once told me that there's Like a difference between a hit and a freak. And you know what I'm like, a hit is kind of in your control. You can do all the right things.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, no, this is like a.

[Ryan]

Then there's another level.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, this is a whole nother level.

[Ryan Holiday]

How does that feel?

[Mel Robbins]

It feels. It's really humbling, honestly, because I don't think it's me. I feel that I'm just so happy in a moment where people feel really worried and scared about what's happening in the world, that people are turning toward a book and a book that can help them lean back into their life. And I love the Trojan horse of this theory because when you first start saying let them, the Irish version is Fuck them. It has this edge to it that helps you detach. But the second part, the let me part, the thing I'm the most proud of, is that this is making people's marriages better. It's making them better friends, better sons and daughters. It's bringing families together because it forces you to see people as they are, to accept them as they are instead of constantly trying to control and judge and change the people you care about.

[Ryan]

Well, it's a beautiful tension between resignation and empowerment. Right. And I think sometimes people struggle with that. They hear ideas of resignation or acceptance. Those are like not great American concepts. Like, we don't like that because it seems like you're giving up your agency, but really what you're doing is giving up your delusions of agency about the parts that are not up to you, and then seizing your agency on the parts of agency that. That actually are up to you. So, yeah, you're. You say that a lot in the book. The idea of like, it seems like it's about them, but really it's about the me. So you're letting them and then you're leaning into the me because it's. I don't control them, but I do control me. So what am I going to do about it?

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And the other thing that I think is really important about it is that I do believe the research, and the research that I cite is from Dr. Aditi Nurokar, that 83% of people, especially here in the United States, coming out of the pandemic in particular, are in a chronic state of stress. And the number one source of everybody's stress is other people. Cause they're super annoying and very frustrating and they break your heart. And they schedule zoom meetings at 5 o' clock on a Friday because they have no life. And I never understood because I've Been a huge fan of your work. I have tried to study stoicism. I'm married to a Buddhist, Ryan. It's so annoying. My husband's a death doula. You want to talk about a profoundly. That's heavy present, calm man. That's my husband of 29 years. And meanwhile, I'm like the steering wheel wife. And if you're not like me, you're probably married to or dating somebody like me, or your mother was like me or your sister's like me. And I have tried to let things go, but to me, letting something go feels like losing.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

It feels like no power. I have read Viktor Frankl's Man Search for Meaning probably a dozen times. I could not apply any of it in a moment where I was stressed or frustrated or hurt. I could not remember to recite the Serenity Prayer. And what I have found transformative at a cellular level is saying, let them and let me are tools. And I can remember that in a moment in modern life when the outside world gets in here or some annoying idiot takes up space up here. And it has helped me protect myself from all of the very real things that I have no control over. And in doing so. And you know this because you are the person that everybody turns to when it comes to stoicism and applications in modern life. What happens is you go, jesus, I have so much more time. I didn't realize I could be calm.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. I think you don't have to go through your day just being pissed off all the time.

[Mel Robbins]

I was the person. I am not proud to tell you that would come home every day and I would be on edge and stressed out and snapping at my kids. And then I would blame work.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And I was giving the worst to the people who are the best.

[Ryan]

That's really hard. I feel guilty about that all the time, too. I'm like, I'm pretty good, like, in the world, not getting, like. I feel like I'm polite. I feel like I'm courteous.

[Ryan Holiday]

I feel like I'm patient.

[Ryan]

And then I go, wait, I'm giving, like, the best to the people I'll never fucking see again.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

And then because your kids don't have a choice about where they live, that you're like, you get the leftovers.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

And obviously it should be the opposite.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And there is something about protecting yourself all day long so that you're not gassed by the time you walk in the door, that it's made me a different boss. It's made me a different wife. It has completely transformed the way I feel day to day. I did not realize how hard I was making life for myself.

[Ryan]

Well, I think about that with my kids. Like, I've never had a teacher or a babysitter or anyone else be like.

[Ryan Holiday]

You kids are the worst.

[Ryan]

You know, like, they're always like, your kids are angels.

[Ryan Holiday]

They're well behaved.

[Ryan]

And I'm like, that's not what I'm seeing at home, you know, And I realized, oh, wait, they're actually being incredible out in the world. They're doing the same thing I'm doing, which is they are behaving and masking and following the rules. And then at home, where they feel, feel safe, they're wild maniacs. And I should. I should take this as a compliment.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Not as an indictment. Like, if I thought they were good and then, you know, it's terrible. Report cards all day and they're getting in trouble all the time, I'd be like, okay, something's wrong.

[Mel Robbins]

Right?

[Ryan]

But it's actually exactly the way you want it to be, which is like. It's like, if your behavior is pretty good, but in your head, you're like, fuck this person. That's better than the alternative.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Right. And so it's. That's how it should be for children. Yes, yes.

[Mel Robbins]

But keep in mind, I'm walking in the door and acting like an eight year old.

[Ryan]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Mel Robbins]

And so when you are an adult, you have the ability to get a hold of this, and it is so liberating and so freeing. I've been so excited to talk to you about this because I am curious about what you see about the Let them theory, what you see about it all.

[Ryan]

Well, here I thought there's this interesting passage that Marcus opens Meditations with that. I think it's got a little. Let me in it. Tell me what you think.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay, so the first part.

[Ryan]

He opens Meditations with a list of acknowledgments from everything he learned from all his friends. But then he says, this is a famous passage. He says, when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself, the people I will deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. And he says, they are like this because they can't tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own. He says, and so none of them can hurt me and no one can implicate me in ugliness he says, I can't feel angry at my relatives or hate him because we were born to work together. Like feet, hands, and eyes. Like two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. And to feel anger at someone and to turn your back on them are obstructions. And what I like about that is the first part you think is gonna be. It's cynical and jaded and nasty. And then. And then he's like, but that's them. And, like, my job is just to not let myself be like them and also to work with them regardless. That, to me, is stoicism and the idea of, you let them be them, and you still have to make sure.

[Ryan Holiday]

You are who you are supposed to be.

[Mel Robbins]

I am so grateful that you picked out that passage, and I'm gonna tell you why.

[Ryan]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

It explains what has been the single biggest impact that the let them theory has had in my life, other than transforming me from being the stressed out, controlling, judgmental freak and being more peaceful and powerful and more intentional about how I respond. Can be very intentional about business, but not in charge of my emotions. The biggest difference that this has made is in my ability to change the dynamic in a relationship, particularly with family members who are very challenging.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And until I had these tools, I spent most of my life bracing. You know, everybody has, like, just think of the person in your life that is super challenging. But you're not gonna cut them out because you want a relationship with them. You just wish they were different. You just wish they thought different things and acted a different way. And it could be anybody. It could be your adult kid. It could be your parents. It could be a brother. It could be. Be any. It could be your spouse. If only you were more motivated. If only this and the judgment that you bring and the wish that somebody were different is part of the tension. But we don't see it. And so for me, that passage beautifully summarizes what I've experienced, which is, let's just take. Everybody's got somebody who's got, like, a narcissistic personality style in their family, and. And we brace and we wish it's gonna be different. And as we go into interactions with people, you're kind of on edge. This person's been this person since you've known them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

They're not changing.

[Ryan]

Right. They're certainly not changing because you yelled at them.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And they're not changing because you want them to.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

Because people only change when they're ready to do the work, to change. For themselves. And so the strategy with the let them theory is you force yourself to just let them be. Let them be who they are, let them be who they're not. And that includes if they have opinions that you're offended by, that includes if they drink too much, that includes if they're rude, that includes all those things that you want to change. And you may be correct that it would be wonderful if they would change. But the major mistake I was making is I thought if they changed, things would get better. What this taught me is the moment that you force yourself to accept people as they are, which actually is love, and you create this space between you and the other person where they are allowed to have the dignity of their own experience, they are allowed to have their own opinions, they are allowed to screw up their life, they're allowed to be addicted. They're living their life. So when you say let them, you create space for acceptance and non judgment. You create space for compassion. You create space since you're removing the judgment, to actually lean in and be more curious about what's going on. And then the let me part was revelatory for me because I would always get so on edge about these, oh God, is so and so gonna be there? Do we have to. Oh, you know, we all have the person and the extended family that now my energy shifted and so I'm going in different. And so when I started saying, well, let me just ask myself, what do I value? And if I value family or if I value showing up for people or if I value long term friendships, okay, well then I'm going because it's my value. I'm choosing. And if I know who I'm walking into, let me look at what I can control. I don't have to stay overnight. I can just stay for two hours. And if they're upset by that, let them. And I can leave any conversation, any text chain, any dinner table, anytime I choose. And when you start to realize, wait, you're not trapped, you actually have more power, you go into it calm.

[Ryan]

And what does this person present you the opportunity to do?

[Ryan Holiday]

So?

[Ryan]

The passage that I built, the obstacles, the way around is also a quote from Marcus Aurelius where he says, and he's specifically talking, I made the quote more general about obstacles, but he's specifically talking about difficult people. He says, like people who get in our way.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

He says, what, what, what these people forget is we always have the opportunity to adjust and adapt. And he says, so the impediment to action advances action. What Stands in the way, becomes the way. What he's really saying is this person who you are seeing as an obstacle.

[Ryan Holiday]

Is actually an opportunity.

[Ryan]

So that person who has views very different than yours, or that person who's always late, or that person who's too loud, or that person. Insert whatever the thing that person is, not only are you not going to change it, you should see them as an opportunity to practice putting up with that. Right. To being curious about that thing, forgiving that thing, actually getting triggered by it. Exactly like, hey, I'm just. I'm going to go into this difficult situation. And the upside in it for me is that by the time I leave, I've practiced being patient with a person who really bothers me. That makes you better. So they're not going to change. But actually you change in your relation to them and you become better. And that's the idea. Is not just that difficult. People aren't this curse on your existence, but they're this challenge to you that you can be improved by. It's obviously easier to say than to do. But if you can go into it with this mindset, you do get better.

[Mel Robbins]

Over time and something even cooler happens. At least this is what I've discovered.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

So typically in a family dynamic, the most immature and challenging person has the most power. Because everybody's tiptoeing around them and everybody's bracing and it shifts like that energetic web. When you start to say, let them. I know who my uncle is. I know. Just let them be who they be. I'm still going. Cause I want to see my parents and. And I'm just gonna. Let me. I'm just gonna stay calm and I'm gonna keep it light. And that's it. And the second it's out, I'm just gonna take off. Like no big deal. When you walk in to any kind of meeting like that or family gathering like that, and you are settled and you're calm and you are unfuckable with. You're now the most powerful person in the room.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Mel Robbins]

And it shifts everything. You're not as bothered by people. You're not playing into it.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

It is the most like. It's sort of like, you know when people are screaming at you and there's a little bit where you're like, just check out. Versus somebody who's really mad who just is like, they're not reacting. But you know, they're in control of that anger. Like that is a scarier person doing. Because they're actually in control of themselves. And so you and me personally, I speak for myself. And this is what we're hearing from readers around the world, that instead of cutting people out of their life, they're able to create the space to have people in their life as they are.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. What's the term for that?

[Ryan]

Gray rocking, where like, you don't allow them to trigger you, get you worked up.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

You understand, hey, this is what they want me to do in this situation. I'm just. I'm not gonna give you that.

[Mel Robbins]

It actually help you apply gray rocking. Because if you get all triggered by your narcissistic personality style ex. Now they have power over you, but when you go, let them, this is why I'm divorced to this motherfucker. Let them do that. Now let me remind myself, I get to choose how I'm gonna respond to this. And I'm not responding to this text. And if they text me 17 more times, I'm not responding because I get to choose what I'm going to do. I'm going to gray rock, or I'm just going to do the thing where I'm really bland and then they go away.

[Ryan]

Yeah, like letting someone have the last word is having the last word, if you understand it, you know, like, you get to decide, hey, I said what I need to say. This conversation is over. They can keep talking, but the conversation is over. And so it's deciding how you're going to perceive who has the power and who doesn't, and you get to decide.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. You know, the other thing that I think is important to say, because this is one of the things that is a misconception about the let them theory, which is, you know, you're just saying let people abuse you. Let people walk all over you. It's actually not that at all. Because when you are in a situation, whether you're dating somebody or you're working for somebody, or you're in a family situation where somebody is wildly disrespectful or. Or abusive to you in any way, it's already happening and you're not allowing it. It's happening to you. When you say let them, you're not saying, I'm letting them do this to me. When you say let them, you're forcing yourself to recognize that this is who this person is. How they are treating you is how they feel about you. And if the number one rule about life is you cannot change another person, you can only change yourself, then when you say let them, you have to. This is the radical acceptance part. You are having to See with clear and sober eyes the situation you're in.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And then you go to the let me part. And this is where you start to coach yourself and say, let me remind myself I'm not stuck in this job. I may need to pay my bills, but I can use my weekends to brush up the resume and find something else. Let me remind myself if the behavior is unattractive because they don't want to put a label on it. Ryan. And you know what that means. It means they don't like you, but they like sleeping with you. So let them not put a label on it. And let me ask myself, is this attractive?

[Ryan]

Yeah. They're going to do what they're going to do, and I'm going to decide whether I participate, witness it, put up with it, subject myself to it. That's the part that's up to you. And you're going to say, I'm going to let you do this over here.

[Mel Robbins]

Right.

[Ryan]

And I'm gonna go do this over here.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Because so many of us get stuck in very broken patterns in relationships because we live in a fantasy in our mind instead of seeing the reality of the situation that we're in. And, you know, wanting things to change, that's a good thing. Wanting somebody to heal, that's a beautiful thing. Wanting things to get better, that is a wonderful thing. It's the fact that we go about it by thinking the powers in changing that person versus accepting the reality and saying, okay, since I can't control what they're gonna do, I just have to focus on what I'm gonna do. And maybe it's nothing right now. Maybe the first step is I'm just seeing this for the first time. And I've been so scared about paying my bills, it hasn't even occurred to me that I can't change my boss. But I could over time, start to change how I spend my time, and I could start to take the actions that get me to a different job.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned misconceptions about the book. That must be interesting, because, you know, anyone that puts anything out in public, there's gonna be misconceptions, there's gonna be criticism, there's gonna be people who just don't like it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And then obviously, when you succeed at a very large level, one of the things you have to wrestle with is, like, the number of those people becomes quite large. Right. Like, I don't know. No, no. If you sell a million copies of something, the number of people who didn't like, it starts to be in the tens, if not the many tens of thousands of people. Right. It's just like, you think about how many people don't like Taylor Swift. Lots of people like Taylor Swift, which means lots and lots of people don't like Taylor Swift. Right. And so the idea of.

[Mel Robbins]

You know what's interesting? I don't think about that, but that's.

[Ryan]

My point, is that that's a skill you have to learn, letting people have opinions about you that are negative. Because they will.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. But here is the most liberating thing you'll ever learn. If you wake up every day and you do the best that you can to make decisions that make you proud of who you are, you apologize when you screw up, and you do the best with the best of intentions, you can lay your head down on the pillow every night and be proud of yourself. And when you're proud of yourself and you know who you are and you know your intentions and you know the way you operate, you don't think about other people at all, because you actually know the truth.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And I think you get in trouble in life. Like, I cared a lot about what people thought about me when I didn't like me.

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

Because that.

[Ryan]

That you're hoping if they like you, then you could like you.

[Mel Robbins]

Correct. And that's also why this has been so transformative for people, because it reveals this very subtle and hidden thing that most of us don't realize is right in front of your face, which is, before you do anything, the default is to stop and think about what somebody else might think. Like, even just the act of posting something online, most people will select a photo, and I'm like, oh, not that photograph.

[Ryan]

Not that photo.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, maybe this photo. Okay, this photo. All right, let me put that. Filter, filter, filter, filter. Okay, now let me start writing the cap. Oh, is that too much? Too much for who? Yeah, too much for who? There is this assumption that there is something you could do that would guarantee that another human being will have a thought that you can control that will pop into their mind or that they will have an emotion that you can guarantee is due to what you just did. And what's happening when people read this and they start to say, let them, they're noticing that that resistance that Steven Pressman talks about, it's almost a thousand percent based on your fear of other people.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And we don't realize how much we're thinking about other people and how manipulative we are with what we do and what we say. See like people pleasing. That's not a weakness, that's manipulation. Because you're acting in a way to try to manipulate people, to like you. I used to be a huge people pleaser and this taught me that people are gonna think what they're gonna think. They're gonna say what they're gonna say. They're gonna make up lies about you, they're gonna hate you just because you're successful. Your example's gonna bring up stuff for them that they haven't dealt with. Let them give them the dignity of their own experience and let me focus on living my life in a way that I feel good about myself because I know who I am, I know how I operate.

[Ryan Holiday]

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[Ryan]

Couple of years ago, one of my wife's words for the year, we try to think about a word that we're.

[Ryan Holiday]

Going to live by the next year.

[Ryan]

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[Ryan Holiday]

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[Ryan]

I think everyone has that experience. As a kid, you go to the store and you get something, I love this shirt. I love this thing. And then you get to school in it. And then people are like, that shirt is dumb. And that's where you learn, oh, my opinion is not the opinion that counts to me. It's what other people think. And the irony that people are so sensitive, like in the arts or in the creative space is like, the whole point is like, what do you like? That's why you're the artist. And yet here you are going like, audience, tell me if this is good or not.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then you're not doing your job.

[Ryan]

Your job is, do I like this photo? Do I think this sentence is good? Does this sound cool to me? That's the job of the artist.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

And you're actually neglecting it. And you're saying, the audience.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, no, no.

[Ryan]

You make the decision for me.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes, it's true. I think about this a lot because I have somebody that I love deeply, who is an artist and a musician. And I can see the wrestling with, like, you know, there's just like 11 songs waiting to go. And the wrestling with the, is it good enough for who if it's good enough for you? And it's a very hard thing to learn, especially when there is so much negative feedback coming at you. And so many examples is where we started about everybody else's success. Like, I don't. I live in Vermont. I don't see what everybody else is doing. I also don't look for it. And I've cultivated friendships with peers of ours because my family doesn't know what I'm going through. Only the people that are in our industry kind of know what you're going through. And so I'm very careful about who I take advice and who I take criticism for from. Because if I don't respect you, or I wouldn't want to trade places with you, or you haven't done the thing that I'm trying to do, then I'm not going to listen to your feedback, most likely.

[Ryan]

Well, the selective ignorance can be helpful, too. Let's say letting them is the theory and the work.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ryan]

To get to a place where, hey, you found out all your friends went on vacation without you, and you're wrestling with feelings and you're like, you know what? Let them. Or a New York Times review comes out and it's negative, you gotta. Hey, I'm. Let them have their feeling. That's the skill of it. But I think you can also help yourself by just going, by just spending less time on social media by saying, hey, I have a rule. I don't read reviews, or deciding to live in Vermont or rural Texas. Like, by not living in New York City and going to parties all the time, where all I'm hearing about is other people's success. Success. I'm more able to be like, everyone's doing their own thing. I'm doing my thing over here. And I just don't know a lot of what's happening that if I did know, it might bother me and I'm gonna have to do some work. But I can cut that off at the source.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And there's another layer to the success thing. So I used to be one of the most insecure, jealous type of friends you could ever have. I'm not proud to tell you this at all. When my husband and I were struggling massively financially, I remember I had this experience. We were really good. Friends of ours moved from our town to, like, the nice town. And they not only moved there, all of a sudden, they got a nice house with a long driveway. Ryan. And we've all gotten that invitation where you're driving up the driveway and you turn to your spouse and you're like. Like, how the hell do they have this much money? And I love my friend, and I'm happy for my friend, and I know they've worked really hard. I'm just really sad for me. And, you know, I've got a lien on my house, and I've pulled my kid out of town. Soccer. I don't want to fucking kill my husband because I want to blame it all on him. I'm unemployed. And then they swing open the door and they hand you that glass of wine, and I grip it like a fricking blankie. And I'm going around the house, Ryan, holding it like this. I've got that smile like this because I can't contain the anger and the jealousy and the sadness. And she's winning and I'm losing, and her house looks like a freaking restoration hardware store. And now I'm drinking like crazy. And we come around and she has the white kitchen cabinets, and she has the marble on the countertop. And I'm thinking, that bitch stole my Pinterest board, Ryan. And I drink myself into the ground. And then I get into the car and I am so emotionally immature that I turn to my husband and I say, why couldn't you have gone into finance? Why did you have to like people? And the poor man is like shrinking in the driver's seat like, I don't know. I wish I had. It would make her life easier. The thing that's interesting about that experience, because you're gonna feel it in life, of course, is that I didn't understand how to live life in a way that someone else's wins are not your losses.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

That other people, 95% of the stuff in life, they can't block your way. You do that.

[Ryan]

Yeah. It's not a zero sum game. Someone else's success, not only does it not prevent you from being successful, you know them, it probably actually helps you be more successful if you could figure out how to see it that way.

[Mel Robbins]

But I couldn't for a long time until I recognized that all of that friction, whether it's jealousy or anger or frustration that stirs up in you, it's actually very personal. Like, if somebody drove down the block here and they had a cyber truck, I wouldn't feel anything. Cause I don't want one. Yeah, I know they're fucking dumb, but just like, I don't want that thing. But if somebody drove down in like a vintage pickup truck, I'd be like, oh. Because the things that stir up inside you, they are deeply tied to your dreams and to the things that are meant for you. And I. I started to see that. Oh, wait a minute. Like, all of this friction is just like a directional signal. It's like some sort of GPS off in the distance saying, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And it's your self doubt that's blocking you. It's your inaction. You can work for a decade and make the money to renovate your kitchen. You could paint your kitchen cabinets white. Right now there's a million Ways that you could achieve something adjacent to that, if you recognize that you are capable of doing it through your attitude and your actions, and you understand that all of that stuff that gets churned up is your body and mind and soul trying to say, wait the hell up. Like, you could do this. I remember I wanted to get into podcasting for so long because I had started in radio way back in the day, like 2007, and I kept telling myself, it's too late. Yeah, I'm too old. That fricking monk, Jay Shetty, he's already said it all. Fucking Steven Bartlett. Screw that guy Ryan Holiday. He's already got his show. I can't write a book now. Oh, my God. Everybody's already said it. I talked myself out of doing it for probably four years. Yeah, how sad.

[Ryan]

I know. It's not just like, hey, there's some stuff that's in your control and some stuff that's not in your control. It's that when you are directing energy, emotions, resentments, et cetera, at the part that's not in your control, what you're doing is taking away energy that could be spent on the part that's in your control.

[Mel Robbins]

Say that again. So they hear you say that, please.

[Ryan]

It's like we have a finite amount of energy, and are you gonna throw it against the brick wall over here? Are you gonna throw it on the.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sort of open road over here?

[Ryan]

Like, where are you gonna put it? Are you gonna put it where it makes a difference? Or are you gonna keep throwing it where it doesn't make any difference?

[Mel Robbins]

But it feels so good.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure, sure.

[Mel Robbins]

To complain about other people, but it feels so good in some way to be like, screw that guy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, it's safer, for sure, because there's.

[Ryan]

No chance of you actually getting the thing. So all you have is the resentment.

[Mel Robbins]

It's true.

[Ryan]

It's rough. It's rough.

[Mel Robbins]

Why did it take me 54 years to figure this out?

[Ryan]

Well, I think that it's. Why did it take the human race this long to figure? I mean, we know this. Like, ancient people said it. Psychologists have said it. Your grandparents probably told you this. Knowing it and then being able to apply it. It's not just like, it takes a while.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's.

[Ryan]

It's a gradual thing. Like, I like, even something like the theory or something like stoicism. It feels like an epiphany when you hear it for the first time. And there is, like, a lot of power in that. But mostly that's the least valuable part.

[Ryan Holiday]

The part of it is that sort.

[Ryan]

Of slow, creeping or gradual ability to apply it more and more in your life or in the situations that actually matter.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Just knowing it's not that.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, that's the thing. That's one of the other reasons. I mean, there's many reasons why this thing has exploded. One of them is the simplicity. The second is that it's a tool. There's a very big difference between what you need to know or why things are happening and how to apply. And the third reason why I think this thing has exploded is that as you read it, you're like, oh, I know this because it's reminding you of what you know to be true.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

And the fourth reason why I think this has exploded in popularity and impact is as you're reading it, you're like, my mother needs this. My sister has got to read this book. My entire team needs to read this book.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And it's funny, I was talking to Bert on two bears in a cage, and he's like, I just love this book. I love this book. And, you know, everybody needs to read this book. And I said, well, actually, that's one of the reasons why it's so popular, is because if you're frustrated because you've been trying to change somebody, people read the book and then they're like, oh, my God, I gotta give this to my husband because I'm sick and tired of trying to make him do change. We're gonna turn him over to Mel. And then all of a sudden, he's like, leanne, you gave me this book as a gift. Like, he literally. She's like, exactly. And it works.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I do think people struggle with the popularity of stoicism. I think I've seen some criticism of your book in this, where people are like, but the world's falling apart. What about injustice? What about the things that are wrong? And I actually think it applies perfectly.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ryan]

There's this line from Solzhenitsyn that I love where he says, you know, let evil come into the world. He says, let untruth come into the world. But you have to say, not through me.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ryan]

So.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, say that again. That is. Is gorgeous.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Let untruth come into the world, but not through me.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan]

And that's the idea, right?

[Mel Robbins]

Well, here's what I believe, because I am very optimistic. I am optimistic despite the fact that there are things that are profoundly wrong right now. And the reason why I'm optimistic is because the kind of transformative change that truly takes hold, whether it's in a family, or it's in your community, or it's in a nation, or it's the world at large. Never comes from the top. It always comes from within. It starts within you or within someone else and then it ripples out through you. And what I love about this quote that you just said is that you don't have a choice about what's happening out there, but you do have a choice about whether or not it gets in here. And if you protect your peace and your energy, what that means is you are not succumbing to that darkness. You are one of those people that are staying in your power and you are operating in a different way. And that has a huge impact. We just had a guy by the name of Dr. Todd Rose who you would love on the podcast, okay. He wrote this book called Collective Illusions. He was a professor of education at the Harvard School of Education and he now runs a nonpartisan think tank that has collected the world's largest private data set on what people actually believe and want in life. It is the most empowering and encouraging research you will hear and it's I think the most important podcast episode we've released in the last two years because he explains in a very like just data driven way that first of all, one out of every four interactions online is a bot. And that is a very conservative estimate. Not political, but like very estimate that they think is, is probably not accurate, probably more. And that they can tell you that 90% of the content that you see is coming from 5% of the voices that are extreme.

[Ryan]

The worst people.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And we are at record levels of people admitting that they're self silencing because and this goes to what you were saying about nobody wants to be the weirdo in middle school. You know this. But in case, you know, you're watching and listening and you don't know this, Dr. Rose was explaining that that your brain is wired for connection. And being the weirdo or being the one that disagrees with everybody, it actually triggers in your brain this painful experience that is the same part of the brain that governs physical pain. Nobody wants to be that person that everybody is outcasting. And so when you have the loudest, most extreme, craziest, awful voices and they're dominating everywhere, the vast majority of people self silence because they start to tell themselves a lie, which is everybody else must believe this too when they don't. And the data set's really interesting because the way that he does the data is he has this thing called the success index, where you would go into a room, I'd go into a room. They give us A list of 60 attributes, everything from family to meaningful work to fame to money. And you've got to rank them in order. What does a successful life look like to you? And so you can't go this or that. You have to actually rank them. So there's trade offs. Of the top 10 things that people privately say, this is a successful life. To me, eight of them are exactly the same. And the number one thing is doing something with my life that makes a difference for other people. Number one, doesn't matter what religion, what, political, whatever. Now this is where it gets interesting. They then come in and say to you and to me, okay, Mel, now I want you to do the same ranking, only. What do you think other people put.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And everybody puts fame, status and money at the top when it was almost at the bottom of theirs.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And the research and they've done this in all these different categories proves that people want the same things. Yeah. We may disagree on policy and the way to get around it, whatever else. But we are in this collective moment of silence. And he also talks a lot about the example of the Velvet Revolution, which I did not know. It is the only time a communist government has been overthrown without a single bullet fired or single person kill. And it happened in the 1980s when a poet wrote a play that was a satire about the. It's one of the Czech. I mean, I'm gonna get this all wrong. Cause geography is not my strong suit. And I did not take European history. So I know that the haters are gonna come in. Let them please link in the comments below.

[Ryan]

They're contiguous.

[Mel Robbins]

Dr. Todd Rose. There's an 80 page beautiful paper that's free that you can read all about the Velvet Revolution where this playwright wrote this play that was sort of a satire. But it was just low level enough that people were laughing hysterically. But the government didn't realize it.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Mel Robbins]

And people started to go, this is like so stupid. I'm gonna go back to gardening. I'm gonna write some poetry. And then all of a sudden there was such a groundswell. The same thing happened when gay marriage became legal. There was a vast majority of us that believed and wanted it to be. And then everybody's self silencing. And then finally people are like, why can't my brother get married? This is stupid. Why can't my friend get married? This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. In fact, it's not fair. And then the silent majority became the vocal majority. And so I am optimistic because I believe with every cell of my being seeing that 90% of people want the same things and are weary because they don't believe other people do.

[Ryan]

Yes. And you send a powerful signal when you say, hey, I'm not going to participate in that. Hey, I'm not going to be a party to that. Hey, that's not good. Hey, that's not how I treat people. I'm going to show you how I treat people. And so that's the idea is like, you control. You don't really control what's happening in Washington or Brussels or what all the corporations in the world are doing, but you control how you run your business. You control what you teach your kids. You control how you treat strangers.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, you're a good example of this, by the way, because like, one of the top 10 things, by the way, that people rank that mean a successful life is I am engaged in my community. When you made the decision to move to a smaller town to give your kids and your family a different experience, you also got engaged in your community and you opened a bookstore. I'm not kissing your ass. I'm actually using this as an example. Most people believe that being involved in your community is one of the top 10 things. That means you're living a meaningful life. And 90% of people are not involved in their community.

[Ryan]

I know, it's funny. You tell people like, oh, I opened a bookstore.

[Ryan Holiday]

And they go, oh, I've always wanted to do that.

[Ryan]

You just hear people go, I always wanted to do that. You know, it wasn't. I mean, it wasn't easy, but it's not like there was an entrance exam that I had to pass. Do you know what I mean? Like, you just do it and it's like the five second rule. You just decide to do it and then you fucking do it. That you have to decide to do the things that you want to do.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, but what I want to say is that, yes, changing your attitude and managing your stress and changing the settings in your mind so that you start to become more hopeful. You start to believe in the better nature of people. You start to get out of the house and you operate with kindness. You go down to hospice and volunteer, or you go down to the school and you volunteer, or you go down to the nursing home and you volunteer, or the local parks and rec and you volunteer and you start to meet your neighbor and you start to get reengaged and you start to reconnect with the basic goodness and decency of most people. And you are now part of the solution. Because what you will find, and you probably feel this way too, is that when you live in a tiny town, everybody has to participate for the town to work. And when you are up close with your neighbor, even if they voted differently, you realize, wait a minute, most of.

[Ryan]

The things you interact with them about.

[Ryan Holiday]

Have nothing to do with politics at all.

[Ryan]

So I can let you watch Fox.

[Ryan Holiday]

News in your house, I don't really.

[Ryan]

Care, but as long as you're cool. While we're were chatting at coffee in the morning.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And you might find they're really frustrated by what they see with ice. And you might find that they didn't feel that they voted for what they're saying. And so again, I personally feel I get a little woo woo. I do believe in the physics and the quantum nature and I believe energy is currency. I think in life, whether you're a leader or you're a parent or a friend or whatever, you bring the way weather.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

Because you can be a storm or you can be the sun and a beautiful bluebird day. And when you set the tone because you bring the weather with your energy, that changes everybody around you.

[Ryan]

Yes. And your kids are actually the place you're going to have multi generational impact is at home.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Ryan]

You want to go check out some books in the bookstore?

[Mel Robbins]

I would love to.

[Ryan]

Let's do that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would.

[Ryan]

Mean so much to us and it would really help the show.

[Ryan Holiday]

We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

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