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- [00:00]
Ryan Holiday
About to head over and pick my kids up from school. And after I do, I know what they're going to ask. They're going to go, hey, can we.
- [00:06]
Go to Whole Foods?
- [00:07]
And I am going to say yes one, because then keeps them off their screens. But two, groceries are my responsibility in our household. And so yeah, we usually swing by the Whole Foods headquarters and we get all our groceries for the week. My wife has like a bazillion dietary restrictions. Sometimes that can be tough. But not at Whole Foods. They got everything even for Valentine's Day. They got mild of these chocolate dipped strawberries that I think we're gonna get. They got gluten free stuff, they got dairy free stuff. They got basically everything. And I usually pick her up flowers while I am there too. If you're looking for something for someone for Valentine's Day this year, Whole Foods has got bouquets and arrangements. They've got succulents. Sometimes I'll just bring home a plant. She always appreciates it. The point is you can taste love all month at Whole Foods and maybe.
- [01:00]
You'Ll see me there here at Austin.
- [01:01]
You know what has also been crazy because it integrates your Amazon account. When I pull up Amazon, I can see all the stuff that I ordered, which is always good to remember. Pull up my little Amazon in store code, get all my prime benefits. It's lovely. Anyways, I'm off to Whole Foods and you should too. New year, new systems, right? This is the time when we should look at the messier parts of our business and think there's gotta be a better way. And there is. Streamlining your communications is one of the quickest and easiest system upgrades you can make. And that's why today's episode is brought to Quo is brought by Quo. That's Q U O the smarter way to run your business communications. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews. And it's built for how modern teams work. And that's why over 9,000 businesses, from big companies to little ones, use Quo to stay connected, professional and reachable. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared numbers so stuff doesn't get dropped, nothing gets missed, and the customer gets taken care of. Plus, it's easy. Calls, texts, voicemails, transcripts and contact details all live in one clean view and you've got it all at your fingerprints. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. And you can try quo for free. Plus get 25% off your first six months. When you go to quo.comDailystoic Q U O.comDailystoic no missed calls, no miss customers. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world.
- [02:43]
Do you know who the most brilliant, the most badass, the most powerful philosopher in the ancient world was? Because it wasn't Marcus Aurelius, the Emperor of Rome. It wasn't Socrates, it wasn't Plato, it wasn't Aristotle. It was a man who lived on the streets. It was a man who begged for his food. Yet it was this poor homeless man who could challenge Alexander the Great to his face, who could walk into Plato's house and stamp on his carpets. And yet, even though he didn't write basically anything down, had an enormous philosophical legacy, Stoicism as a philosophy would not exist without this man. And in today's video, that's who we're.
- [03:24]
Going to talk about.
- [03:24]
We're going to talk about Diogenes the cynic. We're going to talk about the school of philosophy known as cynicism, and we're going to talk about some lessons that the cynics could, can teach us to apply here in our very modern lives. Now, you might have heard the word cynic before, like with a lowercase. And maybe you think that that's negative, Right? That's someone who makes fun of stuff, who's pessimistic, who doesn't believe in anything. But just as Stoicism is not lowercase, Stoic, you know, has no emotions, has no feeling, totally invulnerable. That's not what the school of cynicism is as a philosophy either. The cynics actually, like the Stoics, tried to live in accordance with nature. Yes. They actively rejected some normal social conventions, materialism. They didn't care about superficial stuff. They were in favor of self sufficiency and virtue. But they were also known for taking these ideas to the extreme. There are stories about them that are, that are kind of punk. Right. They're, like, nude in public, they're using the bathroom wherever they want. They are testing and questioning things that other people are afraid to do. And actually, this was something I talked about with the philosopher and Harvard professor Arthur Brooks about when he was on the Daily Stoic podcast to begin with.
- [04:46]
Arthur Brooks
We don't understand them because we cast aspersions to people who are cynical.
- [04:50]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [04:51]
Arthur Brooks
I mean, the whole idea of the skeptics and the cynics, different schools, of course.
- [04:55]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [04:55]
Arthur Brooks
That there's something that's kind of suspect about the character. You know, we don't. You don't want to be a cynical person because you're just negative all the time. And that's exactly getting it wrong.
- [05:04]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [05:04]
Arthur Brooks
How do you characterize this school of cynicism?
- [05:06]
Ryan Holiday
I say they're like the punk rockers of the philosopher world. They are transgressive and radical by taking it too far, actually providing us insights about sort of a moderate middle ground. Like, if everyone lived as Diogenes lived, the world would be a horrible place. But if everyone lived as according to ambition and trying to, you know, make as much money and get as much power and valued all the wrong things, you also get a really bad society.
- [05:34]
Right.
- [05:35]
He's like the hippie. So none of this matters, man. You know, like.
- [05:38]
Arthur Brooks
And saying none of it matters. He's saying this is stupid.
- [05:41]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [05:42]
Arthur Brooks
So it's worse than whatevs.
- [05:44]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, you know, just making fun of your suit and your tie and your fancy car. I mean, the famous story about Diogenes that I love is, you know, he has very few possessions, but he walks up to the well, he gets a cup of water. A young boy runs up and gets water with his hands. And Diogenes realizes that even here, having reduced what he thought his needs were to nothing actually has one more that he can get rid of, and he smashes his cup on the ground.
- [06:09]
Arthur Brooks
The cynics are interesting because what they do is they. They can make you realize that life is hilarious.
- [06:14]
Ryan Holiday
So Diogenes is probably the most well known and the most extreme of the cynics. He's actually known as Diogenes the dog because he lived in barrel on the street in Athens. He tried not even to have clothes. But he wasn't always like this. Like all the great philosophers, there's an origin story. How does he go from his ordinary life to what he's known for? And this is something I talked to Professor Inger Kuen about. She's a professor of classics at the University of Virginia. So for people who aren't familiar with him at all, let's start where he starts. How does he end up as a philosopher in Athens?
- [06:51]
He's in exile, right?
- [06:53]
Inger Kuen
Yes, that's right. Diogenes is born in probably a pretty well to do family in a town that's called Sinope, and it's on the coast of the Black Sea. And today it's in Turkey. At a certain point, either just him or him and his father get exiled from Sinope. So they have to leave, they Cannot live there anymore, most likely because there was some problem with the coinage, with the, with the mint. So Diogenes dad was in charge of the mint and there was some irregularity that led to them having to leave. He gets exiled, which means he loses his citizen rights in that place and ends up in Athens, which to him ends up being really exciting. Right. A few times he says, like, well, the Sinopeans might have convicted me to exile, but they have convicted themselves to staying in Sinope, so not all that bad. In Athens, he meets Antisthenes, who was a student of Socrates and who sort of sets him most likely on the path of philosophy.
- [08:01]
Ryan Holiday
This is right after the death of Socrates.
- [08:04]
Inger Kuen
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So a few decades after the death of Socrates, which is still, you know, very reverberating for people. And so.
- [08:13]
Ryan Holiday
And this philosophy thing is kind of new, like, not obviously like we go, there's the pre Socratics and then the post Socratic, but it's like it's still up for grabs what this philosophy thing is going to be and mean to the Western world. Because it's all being figured out just then.
- [08:31]
Inger Kuen
Yeah, I mean it's, it's a very vibrant time for it. And if we think about ancient wisdom and people trying to, to figure out how the world works, if there are gods, what they are like, I mean, this is something that people have been doing for at least two centuries already at this point. But at this time, 4th century BCE in Athens, there is a very vibrant competition over what philosophy should be, what it should be like, what kind of questions should be pursued and in what way they should be pursued. So in that sense, it is a perfect time for Diogenes to show up there.
- [09:12]
Ryan Holiday
And then Diogenes is right there in the middle of the reign of Alexander the Great, who's in the middle of gobbling up the world.
- [09:26]
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- [09:27]
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- [09:28]
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- [09:49]
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- [12:28]
Ryan Holiday
Diogenes believed that there was corruption, there was lies, that people were being sold a bill of goods. And I think he believes that his job is to. Is to point out this hypocrisy, to call it out. You know, there's a story about him walking into a crowded theater backwards. And people go, why are you walking backwards? And they start to laugh at him. And he says, you're laughing at me for walking backwards, even though you've been walking in the wrong direction your whole life. There's another story about Diogenes. He's walking through Athens, and he sees a thief arrested from the temple. And he's being led out of the temple by the priests. He says, oh, look, the big thieves are leading away the little thieves. And here he is calling out the hypocrisy, the greed of the religion of his time. He's kind of questioning everything. He's calling it all out. And this is what makes him such a provocative thinker and such a provocative thing to read even 2500 years later. And Diogenes took his training really seriously. We're told that in the summer, he used to roll around in hot sand, and in the winter, he would embrace statues. Imagine a stone or a bronze statue that's freezing cold or even covered in snow. We're told he was trying to inure himself to hardship. He's trying to toughen himself up, to figure out what he's capable of. And you can imagine seeking out discomfort so that the discomforts of ordinary life are comfortable to him. There's another story about Diogenes when there's someone he wanted to learn from, another philosopher named Antisthenes. But apparently Antisthenes was not interested in teaching Diogenes. And when Diogenes kept asking, will you teach me? Will you teach me? The teacher raises his hand as if to strike Diogenes, to send him away. But Diogenes says, go ahead, hit me. There. Isn't wood hard enough? That's going to keep me away from learning from you. Diogenes supposedly practices being rejected, too, or practices the indifference of other people. We're told he's once seen begging in front of a statue. And by that I mean literally begging the statue, which, of course, could not respond. He wanted to get used to the crickets, right? To having his request ignored entirely. And this idea of rejecting the favors and Important people is actually a source of disagreement, agreement that Diogenes has with Plato. We're told Diogenes was seen washing some cabbages one day. And Plato says, you know, if you had come to Dionysus court, served this. This tyrant that. That Plato had worked for, you wouldn't have to do that. And Diogenes looks at him and says, you know, if you just washed your cabbages, you wouldn't have had to go to Dionysus court. And Diogenes was totally right, because Plato had degraded himself in the service of this man and was fooling himself about it. And Diogenes saw right through this. Diogenes was once asked what the most beautiful thing in the world was, and he said it was freedom of speech. He wasn't afraid to offend people. He wasn't afraid to question convention. He wasn't afraid to say what he thought was true, even if others thought it was weird, even if others disagreed, even if others thought it was inappropriate or uncouth. He said what he wanted to say. And that's the kind of freedom he was trying to cultivate. So in Athens, Diogenes is living on the streets. But this also puts him in a position to bump into some of the most influential people of his time, right? Athens is the center of the world. There's actually a famous story of Diogenes in Alexander the Great. He's lying on a rock or in the road somewhere, just sunbathing, and Alexander the Great comes up to him. Alexander the Great's a fan. And he says, you know, I'm Alexander the Great. Is there anything that I can do for you? And Diogenes looks at him and says, yeah, you can get out of my son, right? His request for the most powerful man in the world, a man who has conquered enormous swaths of territory, is to just get out of his way. So in this, I think there's a very stoic idea of what power is, right? Do you have power over yourself or you do dependent on other people? There's something here about not needing anything from anyone, right. Seneca talked about how poverty isn't the person who has little, it's the person who wants more. There's obviously a lot of people in Greece that wanted something from Alexander the Great that were dependent on him or that thought of power as what they could get, not power as reducing what they needed. This idea for from Seneca may actually have come from the Cynics, as Inger and I talked about.
- [17:07]
Inger Kuen
I mean, essentially what happens is that Zeno founds his own School, right. And comes to be known as the Stoics, after the place where they meet, as is all well known. So I would say there's sort of a big philosophical difference between the two. And then there is, shall we say, a historical difference between the two, right. Where the Stoics were quite invested in distinguishing themselves from the Cynics and saying, like, we are doing our own thing, we are doing something different.
- [17:38]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
- [17:38]
Inger Kuen
This is important to them precisely because the Cynics were the guys who lived in the street at the same time, the Stoics cannot really deny their connection to the Cynics because then they cut their own tie to Socrates and sort of Socrates as the important forefather of living a contemplative life of philosophy, is a forebear that the Stoics do want, which means that they have to accept the genealogy from Socrates to Antisthenes to Diogenes to Crates to Zeno.
- [18:09]
Ryan Holiday
Got it?
- [18:10]
Inger Kuen
Right. So they are in this bind, right, where they're both wanting to underplay the connection, but they can't completely deny it. So in a historical sense, it's clear.
- [18:20]
Ryan Holiday
That one descends from the other.
- [18:21]
Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. And that Crates himself implemented person, was a student of Diogenes. They lived at the same time. And that Zeno then lives at the same time as Krates and is a student of Krates. So that all sort of works, works just fine from a historical perspective. Then, in addition to sort of needing this distance, there's also pretty fundamental differences philosophically. I think the sort of the most impactful difference, ultimately, is that for the Stoics, there is a divine organizing principle that is at the heart of everything. And that means that the world is ultimately well organized, Right. To put it a little bit in a banal way, the thing to do is to understand this organization and then to bring yourself, bring your inner self in line with this organization. Now, for the Cynics, there is no such overarching organizing principle. For the Cynics, that also means that the status quo, the world that we live in, such as is today, is not necessarily the best of all outcomes. Right? And Diogenes and the Cynics, they definitely love the world, right? They think that the human body is an awesome thing in terms of everything that it can do. They admire Dynasty. They admire the fact that the sun warms us, that we can drink water from the river, that animals are able to take care of themselves and find food just like that. And if we are a little bit more like that, then we can live a good Life with what nature has done.
- [20:02]
Ryan Holiday
Living in accordance with nature.
- [20:03]
Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But beyond that, there's nothing about this world that's necessary. Right. So when it comes to the social structures, the city that we live in, sort of the societal institutions for the sinnings, these are not necessary precisely because, for instance, animals seem to be able to do without them quite well.
- [20:25]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Inger Kuen
And that has a lot of downstream consequences in terms of how Diogenes thinks about kingship and how he thinks about rulership.
- [20:34]
Ryan Holiday
One believes in order and systems and logic, and the other is a little bit more random and anarchic that like, hey, this is all made up and you can choose to believe in the made up ness, but you don't have to. It doesn't mean anything. This is just how things are. God didn't make them this way and they don't have to remain this way.
- [20:56]
Inger Kuen
Exactly. The society that we live in, the status quo is not God given. It's not.
- [21:02]
Ryan Holiday
That's not part of nature.
- [21:03]
Inger Kuen
Exactly. It's not part of nature. And anything that's not part of nature for the cynics is open to questioning and is, you know, is not necessary.
- [21:11]
Ryan Holiday
You know that Margaret Thatcher thing where she says there's no such thing as society, there's just individuals and their families. Right. Although she's obviously coming at it from a very. But Diogenes is saying like, this is all made up, you can do whatever you want. And the Stoics are like, no, no, no, there's a reason for all of this, whether there is a reason or not. Probably have some fundamental fear of the anarchy that comes if you question it. So it's like, even if there is no reason, this is better than the alternative. So let's. There's a conservatism to Stoicism that maybe isn't lowercase conservatism to Stoicism that is not there in Diogenes.
- [21:49]
Inger Kuen
And ultimately for the Stoics, it's about understanding and making sense of society, such as it is. Right. In order to adjust to it and in order to sort of lead the most virtuous and dutiful life within that context, within your station, within the city that you live in. Whereas for Cynics, we're questioning it to see if maybe there might be a better way to live.
- [22:12]
Ryan Holiday
With the Stoic school descending from the Cynic school, there's obviously a lot of overlap. There's a big similarity between the two schools. I think the big place they overlap is this idea of freedom. Freedom not in the legal Sense, but freedom from the things that enslave most of us. Diogenes talked about people being slaves three times over. He meant sex or gluttony or sleep. Seneca, coming a couple hundred years after Diogenes talked about, he says, show me somebody who isn't a slave. He was talking about powerful people who are slaves to ambition, to their mistresses, to a computer compulsion to money, to fear, to work, whatever it is. And so they might have been on paper much more powerful than someone like Diogenes or Epictetus. But if you actually look at their lives, their day to day existence, they're actually not in control, they are actually powerless. Seneca would talk about this one Roman general, he says, you know, he commanded armies, but ambition commanded him. And so we come back to this, you know, idea of Diogenes. Who's more powerful, Diogenes or Alexander the Great? Now, of course, the Cynics go a lot further than the Stoics in terms of achieving this freedom. You know, getting rid of almost everything they own, reducing their desires to nothing. I don't know how practical or realistic that is for most of us, but I think there still is a lesson here that basically the more you want, the more you need, the more you are vulnerable, the more you are not under your own power. And this is not just true for, you know, sort of material things, but also desires and urges and passions. Now, another crossover between the Stoics and the Cynics is this idea of treating the body rigorously. Now, we might think of Diogenes sort of living on the streets as some kind of weakling, but he's kind of seeing this as like an athletic feat, like how little does he need, how tough can he be, how exposed can he be to the elements? What can he endure? And so for Diogenes, he's thinking about training and pushing the body, and in pushing the body, also pushing the mind and vice versa. He saw that health and strength are both essential for the philosopher. You know, today we think of philosophers as sort of sitting in a, in an ivory tower in a cushy office, being a bit soft. But Diogenes was a hard guy who lived a hard life. And again, I think we can see a connection between the Stoics and the Cynics via Seneca. Seneca said, we treat the body rigorously so that it is not disobedient to the mind. The Stoics are saying, you push yourself, you find out where your limits are, you develop strength and self confidence, and independence is as a result of pushing yourself in this way. And not only does this make you healthier, it helps you think more clearly, it makes you more resilient, and it makes you ultimately better. We're told by a biographer of Diogenes, also named Diogenes. It's a little confusing, but he says, sure, we have the ideals, and that's what part of the philosophical training is about, the ideas. He says, but none of this, the ideas and the virtue, he says, none of it is complete without help, because health and strength are equally essential for training both the mind and the body. There's another story that I like about Diogenes. Diogenes is starting to get advanced in age, and a friend is saying, like, why don't you slow down? And Diogenes is sort of taken aback by this. He says, why would I take it easy now that I'm old? He says, if you were running a distance race, would you slow down when you were approaching the finish line? He says, wouldn't I do bet to speed up? And this reminds me of one of my favorite stories about Marcus Aurelius. Marcus Aurelius is an old man. He's considered wise, he's considered powerful. He's a philosopher king, and he's seen leaving the palace in Rome, and a friend stops him and he says, you know, where are you going? And Marcus says, I'm off to see Sextus the philosopher, to learn that which I do not yet know. The man's amazed. He says, here we have the king of the Romans still taking up his tablets and going to school. Epicurus, another philosopher from Roman around this period, says sort of the same thing, that to say that you're too young or too old to learn is to say that you're too young or too old to be happy. Like, this is the whole point of existence. And so I think Diogenes is right here. We should not just become students at some early point in our life, but we have to stay students at all points of our life. We always have to be learning. And while we are alive, we should be living. And so what makes Diogenes so great? What's motivating him? He's not trying to be rich. He's not trying to be famous. He's not trying to be important. He's not trying to be a great athlete. In fact, he thinks it's interesting that people compete in all these areas and not the area that actually matters. We're told that. He says, I see many men competing in wrestling and running, but no one competing in the pursuit of human excellence. So that's what Diogenes is after, sort of human excellence. He's trying to get to the core of the human experience, what actually makes a great and powerful person. And he believes it's not all these trappings, it's not status, it's not any of the things that other people are after. It's something deeper, something more profound. And that's what makes him this great philosopher. And lastly, I think one of my favorite lines from Diogenes, he's asked why he changed his opinion about something, right? We would think that a philosopher would be consistent. And he says, look, I used to piss my bed, but I don't do that anymore, right? The point is, a philosopher should be able to change your mind. Cicero talked about this, about remaining a free agent. Things are always changing and we should be able to change. Marx Rius talks about how someone brings you new information. They point out where you've been mistaken. They're not harming you, they're helping you. They're helping you become what you need to be. But that can only happen if you change. If you're willing to change your mind, if you're willing to change your practices, if you're willing to incorporate this new information in. And I think we should even think about this with Diogeny. A lot of what he says might make us uncomfortable. It might question some assumptions we've long held. But he knew what he was talking about. And in hearing from him, he can help correct us, he can help guide us, he can help point us in the right direction. Maybe you love the Stoics, maybe you're Christian, maybe you prefer the Eastern thinkers. But there's something in Diogenes, something in the cynics. Even if it's not totally practical, even if it's a little too extreme for some of us, that can help us question things, that can help us think about things from a new perspective. By taking things to a logical extreme, or by subjecting them to extreme circumstances, Diogenes helps us understand ourselves, our own assumptions, our own ideas better. Seneca talked about this too, how we want to read like a spy in the enemy's camp. I think studying other schools of philosophies help us understand and improve our beliefs. As a result.
- [29:14]
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