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The Daily Stoic
The REAL Difference Between Stoics and Cynics | Cynicism Expert Inger Kuin (PT. 2)
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- [00:00]
Ryan Holiday
I'm recording this on a Monday and Monday is our grocery store day. In our family. I usually pick my kids up from school and we go over to Whole Foods get all our groceries for the week. Although here very shortly we're going to go over there to get our Thanksgiving turkey because they've got a bunch of great options. Turkeys start at 1.49a pound. If you have prime with organic birds at 299a pound and they only carry no antibiotic ever turkeys, they that will bring quality to your table at a great price. Whole Foods has great everyday prices on all your Thanksgiving essentials. Whether you celebrate with a massive family or just a few close friends, everything they sell has high standards to help you shop with confidence. Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market. Deciding what workout to do or how much weight to use. These are all roadblocks ways that we sort of get in our own way. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Tonal will pick the perfect weight, track your progress and suggest what to do next based on your muscle readiness. Taking the guesswork out of getting a great workout, Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home with one sleep system designed to reduce your mental load, Tonal is the ultimate strength training system, helping you focus less on workout planning and more on getting great results. You don't have to second guess your form because Tonal is giving you real time coaching cues to dial in your form and help you lift safely and effectively. After a quick assessment, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and adjusts in 1 increments as you get stronger so you're always challenged. Black Friday early access is on for a limited time. Tonal is offering our listeners $1,000 off your tonal to purchase promo code TDS for $1,000 off your purchase.
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Ryan Holiday
Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead. Nate Brin. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. In some ways, the bane of my existence is what people think the word stoic means, right? I think I say this in the intro of the Daily Stoic, like, not only is stoic an unappealing and misunderstood word to most people, particularly in America, but Stoic philosophy doubles it, right? Philosophy on the end means people go, ugh. Right? And I've been battling this since I went out with the book proposal of the Obstacle Is the Way. Are people actually going to be interested in this when they have these preconceived notions of what these words mean? And of course, Stoicism is not the only school where this is true, right? Epicureanism seems to mean hedonism to people or gluttony or even in the ancient world, this was a problem. Like Epicurus was presented even by some of the Stoics as this, like, perverted weirdo who was corrupting people and living in, you know, sin and excess, which, of course, this is not what Epicureanism is about at all. Now, the same is true for cynicism, at least. Epicureanism sounds fun, right? Cynicism sounds negative and short sighted and small minded and sarcastic and rude and mean and all these things, right? But like with lowercase Stoicism, uppercase Stoicism, lowercase cynic, and uppercase cynicism have very different origins, very different meanings, and the schools are not that different from each other. I think it was Marshall, the Roman poet, said, the difference between the Stoics and the Cynics is that there's a shirt between them, meaning that the Stoics were a little better dressed than the cynics. Diogenes, the cynic who we're going to talk about in today's episode was a transgressive rebellious, fascinating figure. But actually Stoicism would be impossible without cynicism. Zeno's first teacher was a guy named Crates. The founder of Stoicism was tutored by a philosopher named Crates. And also his wife was a fascinating cynic philosopher. Crates was known as the door opener. I talk about him in Wisdom Takes Work. He's the door opener who opens the door to philosophy for Zeno. So in today's episode, which actually Part two, part one I ran earlier in the week, my guest, professor Inger Kuen, talk about cynicism versus Epicureanism versus Stoicism. Talk about the invention of this lowercase cynic where the cynics might actually have things more right than the Stoics. Then I want to recommend some books because when we walked through the bookstore, she and I continued this conversation and ended up talking about philosophy quite a bit more. As I said in part one, Professor Cohen is a researcher, writer and teacher focused on the intellectual history of ancient Greece and Rome. She's an associate professor of classics at the University of Virginia, home of great Gregory Hayes, also my favorite translator of Meditations. She's originally from the Netherlands, so she publishes in English and Dutch. You can go to her website ingerkuhan.com and be sure to pick up her book Diogenes, the Rebellious Life and Revolutionary Philosophy of Diogenes the Cynic. I really like this conversation. I really liked her. And I think you will like this episode. Do check it out. And as I said, please come see me. I'm going to be in Seattle here very shortly. I'm giving a talk on December 3rd. Third, I believe at Seattle. You can buy tickets@dailystoic.com and then I'm going to be in San Diego and Phoenix in February. Grab all of that@dailystokelive.com so let's talk the difference between the Stoics and the Cynics, because the Stoics are directly descend from the Cynics. I mean, Zeno's teacher is Crates the Cynic. So how does this happen and what do you see as the major differences between them?
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Professor Inger Kuen
Okay, this is a great question. Big one, big one. So I mean, essentially what happens is that Zeno founds his own school, right, and comes to be known as the Stoics after the place where they meet, as is all sort of well known. And what. So I would say there's sort of two. There's sort of a big philosophical difference between the two. And then there is, shall we say, a historical difference between the two. Right? Where the Stoics were quite invested in distinguishing themselves from the Cynics and saying, like, we are doing our own thing. We are doing something different.
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Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
This is important to them precisely because the Cynics were the guys who lived in the street. Right? So that's where that comes from. The same time, like we're not the.
- [08:20]
Ryan Holiday
Sexual perverts like them.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly. At the same time, the Stoics cannot really deny their connection to the Cynics because then they cut their own tie to Socrates. And sort of Socrates, as the important forefather of living a contemplative life of philosophy, is a forebear that the Stoics do want, which means that they have to accept the genealogy from Socrates to Antisthenes to Diogenes to Crates to Zeno.
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Ryan Holiday
Got it?
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right. So they are in this bind, right, where they're both wanting to underplay the connection, but they can't completely deny it. So, yeah. So in a historical sense, it's clear that descends from the other. Exactly, exactly. And that Crates himself, in person, was a student of Diogenes. They lived at the same time. And that Zeno then lives at the same time as Crates and is a student of Crates. So that all sort of works just fine from a historical perspective. Then, in addition to sort of needing this distance, there's also pretty fundamental differences philosophically. And I think the sort of the most impactful difference, ultimately, is that for the Stoics, there is a divine organizing principle that is at the heart of everything. And that means that the world is ultimately well organized, right? To put it a little bit in a banal way, right? But for the Stoics, ultimately, there is the understanding that the world is well organized, such as it is. And the thing to do is to understand this organization and then to bring yourself, bring. Bring your inner self in line with this organization. Simply put, now, for the Cynics, there is no such overarching organizing principle, right? There is no divine organizing principle that ties it, everything together. And for the Cynics, that also means that the status quo, the world that we live in, such as is today, is not necessarily the best of all outcomes, right? And Diogenes and the Cynics, they definitely love the world, right? They think that the. The human body is an awesome thing in terms of everything that it can do. They admire the natural world. They admire the fact that the sun warms us, that we can drink water from the river, that sort of animals are able to take care of themselves and find food, just like that. And if we are a little bit more like that, then we can live a good life with what nature has given us.
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Ryan Holiday
Living in accordance with nature.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But beyond that, there's nothing about this world that's necessary. Right. So when it comes to the social structures, the city that we live in, sort of the sort of societal institutions for the sinnings, these are not necessary precisely because, for instance, animals seem to be able to do without them quite well. Right. And that sort of. And that has a lot of downstream consequences in terms of how Diogenes thinks about kingship and how he thinks about rulership. Right. Whereas for the Stoics, it makes a lot of sense to live in an autocracy because ultimately there is one divine organizing principle in the cosmos. So why would there not be an emperor on earth?
- [11:55]
Ryan Holiday
One believes in order and systems and logic, and the other is a little bit more random and anarchic that like, hey, this is all made up. And you can choose to believe in the made up ness, but you don't have to. It doesn't mean anything. This is just how things are. God didn't make them this way and they don't have to remain this way.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So the society that we live in, the status quo, is not God given. It's not.
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Ryan Holiday
That's not part of nature.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly. It's not part of nature and sort of. And any. Anything that's not part of nature for the cynics is open to questioning and. And is on, you know, is not necessary.
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Ryan Holiday
And this would include things like the moral order, like, hey, this is why you can't masturbate in public. People are like, you can't do it. And Diogenes is like, why not? You know, and. And so there it does. Yeah. It's like one believes there's such a, you know, that Margaret Thatcher thing where she says, there's no such thing as society, there's just individuals and their families. Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
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Ryan Holiday
Although she's obviously coming at it from a very. But Diogenes is saying, like, all made up, you can do whatever you want. And the Stoics are like, no, no, no, there's a reason for all of this. And whether there is a reason or not, probably have some fundamental fear of the anarchy that comes if you question it. So it's like, even if there is no reason, this is better than the alternative. So let's. There's a conservatism to Stoicism that maybe isn't lowercase conservatism to Stoicism that is not there in Diogenes.
- [13:30]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I. I think sort of when you said earlier about masturbating in the market square as a moral question, I think Diogenes would say it's a question of etiquette, it's not a moral question. Right, right. Like, moral questions are about justice. Yes, right. And about, you know, and about.
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Ryan Holiday
And he's saying etiquette is stupid and it doesn't matter.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
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Ryan Holiday
And the Stoics are like, yeah, but we'll all descend into apes killing each other if there's no etiquette. And is morality just another version of etiquette, a more extreme version of etiquette?
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Professor Inger Kuen
And ultimately, for the Stoics, it's about understanding and making sense of society, such as it is. Right. In order to adjust to it and in order to sort of lead the most, you know, the most virtuous and dutiful life within that context, within your station, within the city that you live in. Whereas for cynics, were questioning it to see if maybe there might be a better way to live.
- [14:34]
Ryan Holiday
Is that the fundamental flaw of Diogenes, though, which is, like, he can do it because everyone else buys into the other system and he is able to exist not as a parasite, but as a. As an exception to the rule. But if that was the rule, everyone would starve. There would be anarchy, or there would be just a lot less people would be able to live. Right. Like, you need for the world that we have it then and now, you need people who go to work every day.
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Professor Inger Kuen
So I agree with you that if we had a society that consisted solely of Diogenesis. Right. That there would be sort of a lack of. Of constructiveness, in a sense. Right. There would be a lack of coherence and constructiveness and. And this would be a problem. The society without Diogenesis, sure, is extremely dangerous.
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Ryan Holiday
Yes. It's Sparta or something.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah. Because. Because if you have a society without any Diogenesis, then there is no pushback, there is no questioning, There is no sort of bringing things back to the human measure and sort of deciding, well, but how. How does this affect me in my everyday life? And do we really need to be doing this? Is this. Is this really the best of all possible outcomes? And this is, you know, this sort of, again, goes to the heart of this, you know, philosophical impurity or ambiguity in Diogenes in the sense that he does live on the fringes of society and he lives on alms, and in order for him to be, you Know.
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Ryan Holiday
Someone has to be making the money to give to Diogenes.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly. Right. Like there has to be somebody made.
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Ryan Holiday
The jar that he lives in.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right.
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Ryan Holiday
You know, he doesn't live in a hut. He's not an off the grid survivalist who can do anything for himself. That's what's so interesting about him. Right. Like he's not going off into the woods and living off the land. No, he is living off the refuse of society.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
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Ryan Holiday
Because that he thinks is stupid.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, but exactly. But at the same time, he does think like he does still appreciate his fellow humans just enough that he thinks that they are worthy of what he has to say.
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Ryan Holiday
That's true. He's not an antisocial, he's not a hermit in that sense either. He's just like, why are you going to that job, man? You know?
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right, exactly, exactly. Like, do you, do you like, is this a good job? Do you believe in this job? Right. Does that, like, does this job align with your ideas of justice? And if it doesn't, you should stop going to that job because you don't actually need that money, you don't actually need that car.
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Ryan Holiday
You can always live in a job.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. And this is ultimately what Diogenes means by freedom. Right? Is the freedom to be able to make those choices and those decisions because you are not afraid of being a beggar. And you have taught yourself to be able to live on the street and to live on very little. And because you have boiled down life to its essence in that way you are able to be happy with your handful of beans and your stale bread. And that knowledge, that preparation then allows you to be independent and to say to Alexander, no, I don't need anything from you. Just get out of my sunlight. That's all I need.
- [18:11]
Ryan Holiday
Well, Diogenes is able to say that to Alexander in a way that Seneca is not able to say that to Nero. And so you go, who's actually gets it right? Yeah, it's interesting too how much this boils down to that expression about the narcissism of small differences. Like the Epicureans and the Stoics way more in common than difference. Yeah, the Cynics and the Stoics way more in common than differences. Especially because like, yeah, it's not like the Stoics were like the man and then Dioges is not the man, first off. Cause they're obviously Zeno's literally training under one, but like, the Stoics are questioning so many of the assumptions that also believe you should Live in accordance with nature. I think. Is it Juvenal who says, between the Stoics and the Cynics, they have only a shirt between them. And it's like one. Yeah, one is wearing clothes and the other's like, we don't even need clothes. And so it's just like the degree to the extremes with which you're willing to take it. Like, the Stoics are like, we love all the philosophy stuff, but somebody has to serve in the army and somebody has to clean the streets and, like, somebody has to do this stuff. And Diogenes is saying, like, not us, you know, and then I think the Stoics are saying, if we don't do it, either nobody's going to do it or someone worse is going to do it. And that's. I think one is making this kind of pragmatic, you could say, responsible choice. And it's not that the other is irresponsible, but there is something, I think, both in the epicureans and in the cynics that's like, well, we don't want to be bothered with that stuff. We're going to retreat to the garden or we're going to just ask her questions. But, like, somebody else makes sure that the soldiers are manning the city wall. I feel like we just got our Halloween decorations up and now the next holiday season is here. It's hard to believe it, but Thanksgiving is nearly here. We're big at decorating here at the holiday household, as you can imagine. And Wayfair can help make holiday prep easy by having all your home needs in one place. Their Black Friday sale is the perfect time to score huge deals on all things home. Starting October 30th, you can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. And with Wayfair's fast and easy shipping, you won't have to wait long. Wayfair has everything you need for your living room, outdoor bedroom, and more. And they make it easy to shop online with fast and free shipping, even on the big stuff. They'll even help you set up. Don't miss on early Black Friday deals. Head over to Wayfair.com right now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. W a Y-F-A-I-R.com sale ends December 7th. It's time for Black Friday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. That's right. You'll find huge savings on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 plus with the Intel Core Ultra processor. And with built in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs will get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters to you. Plus you can earn Dell rewards and many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options. And they have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect. Whether you just started your holiday shopping or you're finishing up, these PCs and accessories will make the perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now@dell.com deals and don't miss out. That's Dell.com deals.
- [21:58]
Professor Inger Kuen
So this is where cynicism and epicureanism have, have a lot in common in the sense that they withdraw from political life in a way that the Stoics very much did not. At the same time, it's, it's this kind of pragmatism. Right. Well, if I don't do this thing that I have an inkling might be wrong.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
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Professor Inger Kuen
A worse person will do it.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right. I mean, these are the kinds of decisions that totalitarian regimes are built on.
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Ryan Holiday
Right. But also functioning democracies. Right. Like, like, like both of them.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, absolutely. But in the, in the case of a functioning democracy. Right. To be able to say, I will do this job.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right. Even though I don't feel like it today. Right. I would rather sleep in.
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Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
I would say that that's what a functioning democracy is built on. But I will do this job because, you know, because, and I know it's a, I know it's an unjust task that I'm contributing to.
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Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Because if I don't do it, someone else would do it.
- [22:54]
Ryan Holiday
Right? Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
That's like, I don't, you know, I don't, I don't think that's part of a functioning democratic regime. And I think that's precisely why Diogenes thinking is so important, is so powerful. Because, because it forces you to, to ask that question every day. You're absolutely right. They have so much in common.
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Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
The Stoics and the Sinning have so much in common. And, and there's so much that the Stoics learned and took from Diogenes and from Crates. And this is all to do with, you know, precisely the notion that we should not be afraid of death. The notion that we should actually think about our lives and like spend time thinking about how to live our lives. Well, that we should not get lost in luxury Goods that we really don't need all that much to be happy.
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Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
These are all things that they share.
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Ryan Holiday
Cultivating that kind of resilience. Like one of my favorite stories about Diogenes is he seen begging a statue.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right, Exactly.
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Ryan Holiday
And they go, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm practicing being rejected.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly.
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Ryan Holiday
And you just go, oh, yeah. There's this idea that, like, exposure therapy, basically, like doing hard, uncomfortable things like Diogenes, you go, he's a homeless person. But that's a difficult existence. I mean, it's cold there in the winter, it's hot in the summer. And he is exposed over the years to the elements. He has a. A toughness that you're not typically associating with the philosopher, but he's kind of like in the way that Marina Abramovich is effectively an athlete. He is an athlete in terms of inhabiting the human body and finding out what it's capable of.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly. And this is what the Stoics and the Cynics share, this notion that by preparation, whether that's mental preparation or whether it's bodily preparation, you can prepare yourself and therefore be more free and be less afraid. Because you know that you have that resilience, and you know that you're capable of these things. And, you know, this is. This is why, for Diogenes, it's really important to know that he can live without nice food and live without wine, but once he's trained his body, it's fine to have a glass of wine because he knows he can do without it.
- [25:10]
Ryan Holiday
And he can reject Alexander the Great, because other than death, there's nothing Alexander can do to him.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right.
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Ryan Holiday
There's nothing Alexander can take from him. And he realizes in that moment that that makes him more powerful than Alexander. Or it frees him to speak truth to power that Aristotle cannot. Because Aristotle doesn't want to lose his job. Right. And Diogenes doesn't have a job. Right. And so he's like, you suck. You know, there's an empowerment. The powerlessness creates an empowerment.
- [25:45]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly. And that's why this anecdote is so important, and that's why we all love it so much, is because it says so much about power. That power only exists when you let the other person wield power over you in that way. And if you are Diogenes, you don't need anything from Alexander, and you are not afraid of him. And that means that even though he's Alexander, his power goes up in smoke. And Alexander realizes that in that moment. That's why he's so impressed with Diogenes, and this is what he takes with him for the rest of his life. And I mean, I think we haven't talked about this yet, but I think sort of one of the places where you really see the difference between the Stoics and the Cynics is when it comes to the question of slavery and also the difference between Aristotle and Plato and the Cynics and the Stoics. Because this is something that was so ingrained in ancient society, was so much a part of everyday life that for the Stoics, it is wallpaper. Right? It's part of society, and it's something that they cannot do not venture to think outside of. Right.
- [26:57]
Ryan Holiday
Even Epictetus the slave doesn't seem to go like, this isn't. Right. It's more like it's happening to me. I wish it wasn't happening to me. But the idea that the institution itself is an injustice, it's remarkable how many centuries it takes us to get around to that.
- [27:13]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. And sort of for Epictetus, he comes to terms with his condition of enslavement by going within and seeking freedom inside of him. And ultimately this leads the Stoics to really not think about slavery all that much. Right. Because they have sort of gone within and decided that inner mental freedom sort of obviates real life slavery in the world. But Diogenes does not make this step. Right. And I think this is sort of the most powerful moment where you see that Diogenes is able to think outside of the status quo. And precisely because the world is not necessarily as it should be, there's no reason why the status quo should be good. You don't have to revere it.
- [28:02]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
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Professor Inger Kuen
You don't have to try to make sense of it as it is. You can say, no, actually, this is ridiculous. And that is what Diogenes does do, centuries before anyone else. And more clearly and more in a much more principled way, to say that this notion of one human being owning another human being is completely absurd. Right. And the Stoics, as much as they take from Diogenes, they don't take that.
- [28:33]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. It's like society needs the sort of freaks and hippies and artists and weirdos who question everything, a lot of which not shouldn't be questioned, but there are good answers to why. And then there's the bucket. The handful of things that it actually turns out the reasons are pretty spurious.
- [28:52]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes.
- [28:53]
Ryan Holiday
And Diogenes, by effectively rejecting everything, is able to be right about this thing. That what's interesting too, is, like, as I feel like the earlier Stoics are more cynical, more of the Cynics school, and then by the time we get to Rome now, you have so many additional centuries of the status quo being the status quo that it's harder for them to question. Like. Like, Cato thinks Rome is a republic. By the time it gets to Seneca, there's been so many bad emperors and so much civil war that he's just like this, like, let's just go to. With the most stable of the people, you know, and by the time it gets to Marcus Aurelius, he's not like. Like, the idea in Gladiator that he would give it up is so like. No, like, there is that lowercase C conservatism to the Stoics that the more transgressive, radical early Stoics would not have conceived of.
- [29:51]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. And I mean, sort of a more social, historical way of thinking about that is that sort of like, as Stoicism becomes institutionalized and as Stoicism sort of seeps into the upper regions of society, the Stoics start to become people who have much more to lose. And at that point, it becomes much more difficult for them to sort of be as critical and as principled and as questioning as the Cynics are.
- [30:19]
Ryan Holiday
What's very. Upton Sinclair says it's very hard to get someone to understand something that their salary depends on them not understanding.
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Professor Inger Kuen
Right.
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Ryan Holiday
And yeah, it's like the feature and the bug. The Epicureans and the Cynics are always on the outside so they can see things clearly. The Stoics slowly but surely get absorbed to not just be the inside, but kind of the dominant view of the elites in Rome. And so they have not just the sort of fear of change, but they also have, in some cases, good reasons, but just. They just go, do you understand the cost? Not like the literal cost, but it's like. That's easy for you to say. You don't have to make said decision or you don't have. That's easy for you to say. Let me tell you all the reasons why, you know, and that is the. That's just the. They evolve further and further from each other to the point of being probably incomprehensible to each other.
- [31:15]
Professor Inger Kuen
Right. Yeah. No, I mean, they, like Stoics become so invested. They are insiders in a way, and from the inside, it can be really difficult to see. And if you are no longer communicating with people who are on the outside, then you've lost that, that opportunity.
- [31:33]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, yeah. The other one where they're. I think the Cynics are more right than the Stoics or It takes a while is Zeno is not just taught by Crates, but by Krates wife. And there is an equality of the sexes to. I mean, there's some misogynistic comments from Diogenes, but. But there, there was a kind of equality in the lowliness of cynicism. That it takes a while takes maybe until Musonius Rufus, who also teaches these interesting essays on whether women should be taught philosophy, and he says, yes, but like, as Stoicism gets absorbed into the social hierarchy of Rome, certain questions are no longer asked and certain radical notions of equality go away.
- [32:16]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. And what's interesting about this to me is that Diogenes himself does not explicitly really have an awful lot to say about women, other than some off color remarks for sure. But it is then with the next generation, with Krates and his wife Hipparchia, that it becomes clear that there is, there's nothing about cynicism that precludes women from participating in it. And then it is Hipparchia who sort of takes up like, seizes that opportunity and then it becomes a feature of Cynicism precisely because to be a philosopher and to like ask these questions, you do not have to have wealth, you do not have to be sort of a ruling member of your. Of your polity, because philosophy has become this much more basic day to day thing as it is for Diogenes. And there is virtue in not having anything, and there's virtue in not participating in the polis as a political actor. So all of these things that sort of would preclude a woman from being a serious philosophical actor before are gone in Diogenes thinking. And then Hipparchia and Krates sort of draw the natural conclusion from it, which was there already at the start. It just wasn't realized in Diogenes's lifetime.
- [33:42]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, he just personally didn't seem to care that much about it.
- [33:44]
Professor Inger Kuen
Right, exactly, exactly. And then once Hipparchia sort of joins the ranks of Cynic philosophy, she becomes a figure who's quite popular in imperial cynicism and sort of is featured a lot in the Cynic letters and sort of her like, her ownership of philosophy becomes important. And I do wonder if, you know, if that does not also influence Masonius Rufus, who is a little bit of an outlier among the Stoics.
- [34:13]
Ryan Holiday
He's not a Roman senator in the way that these other Roman Stoics all seem to be. Come from the best families and inherit power and status.
- [34:24]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. And then Mosona sort of continues to think about this question, like, well, why? Why shouldn't women be studying philosophy?
- [34:32]
Ryan Holiday
Virtue is virtue. What does that have to do with your genitals? Nothing. Yeah. And then also here he is teaching probably the most cynic adjacent of the Stoics. Right. Epictetus is the closest, I think, because also he sees Rome from the outside and isn't part of the elite. So he is, you know, he's more radical. He is more indifferent to the things that, you know, Marcus Aurelius is sleeping on a hard mattress by choice. Right. Seneca is practicing poverty one day a month, and Epictetus is like, no, no, this isn't a game, this is life.
- [35:07]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah. And also, I think when you're reading Epictetus, you hear Diogenes a little bit more than a lot of the other Stoic writing. There's something about Epictetus insistence, sharpness, wit. And also very much sort of the active, ongoing educational situation that you see in his writings, that he's always in conversation with someone that sort of feels.
- [35:33]
Ryan Holiday
Also not a writer, unlike Seneca or Marcus or these others.
- [35:36]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. That feels close to Diogenes.
- [35:39]
Ryan Holiday
And then we get the mirror of the Alexander and Diogenes when Hadrian, who's obsessed with Greece, stops in and attends Epictetus lectures. And you're just like, again, some people are like, did it happen? Did it not? And it's like, it probably did happen and it would make sense. And there's something that they probably both would have appreciated in the moment. The irony and the contrast between master and student. It's just a remarkable little scene.
- [36:07]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think for Hadrian, like, all of Greek culture, all of the Greek world, you know, was entirely where his heart was, and. And he was sort of invested in it from. From head to toe.
- [36:21]
Ryan Holiday
So there's an element of it where it's like, you find out, like, Paul Ryan's a Rage against the Machine fan, and you're like, you like it, but you obviously don't fucking get it. Right. You know, and you're. There's something like, Marcus really seems to have sincerely liked the philosophy. Hadrian seems to have really been a student of it, but, like, effectively puts zero of it into practice. It's like he likes, like, that the images and the symbols, but not any of the ideas.
- [36:48]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think also that for Marcus Aureli is the, you know, the fact that we can read the meditations, but that it's so, you know, that they are not written as public facing documents. Right. I mean, we are really seeing him there in his private moments. So we see him struggling with these things in, like, in an honest way that I think is believable and makes sense for a ruler. But in terms of, you know, would Diogenes say, you've really understood me? Marcus Aurelius, maybe in some moments into meditations, but not in his actions.
- [37:29]
Ryan Holiday
He would have stamped on his carpets. Right?
- [37:31]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, Marcus Aurelius went on being Marcus Aurelius, you know, no matter sort of what he understood, as did Alexander, you know.
- [37:48]
Ryan Holiday
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- [40:47]
Professor Inger Kuen
So I can speak specifically for cynics and, and I agree with you that all three words have sort of really suffered, but perhaps cynic, the worst, I would say, because it's such a negative word. Right? It's like almost exclusively a negative word, cynic with the lowercase c. So when this happens is in the 18th, 19th century, like late 18th, early 19th century. So up until that time, the words cynic in the vernacular European languages only means a cynic philosopher into spirit of Diogenes.
- [41:25]
Ryan Holiday
Got it.
- [41:25]
Professor Inger Kuen
Okay.
- [41:25]
Ryan Holiday
Like it means the philosopher, not an attribute of a person adjacent to the thing.
- [41:31]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly like that. Like that latter word does not yet exist.
- [41:35]
Ryan Holiday
The uppercase becomes the lowercase.
- [41:38]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. So at this time, the lowercase is introduced and the lowercase is introduced with reference to Rousseau. And what's really interesting about this is that Rousseau himself aligns himself to some extent with Diogenes. And Diogenes was a very popular figure in the French Enlightenment in general because he places such an emphasis on the human use of reason and is sort of so anti authoritarian and anti sort of the traditional divisions in society, which is all very much at home in the French Enlightenment. So Diogenes is a popular figure. Uppercase cynic is a positive term. It's about intellectual independence. Then the problem with Rousseau becomes that there is sort of a big mismatch between his philosophy and the way he lives his life.
- [42:35]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, he's a shitty person.
- [42:36]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes. And he's not ashamed about being a shitty person.
- [42:39]
Ryan Holiday
For people who don't know he has, like, five kids and he just, one after another gives them up for adoption, just doesn't want them.
- [42:44]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes, yeah, among other things. And he's very open about this. He's not embarrassed about this at all.
- [42:50]
Ryan Holiday
Do you think he's a sociopath or something? What do you think it is?
- [42:53]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh, I really don't know. I mean, I think maybe, like, when I think about Rousseau and sort of this problem is that he was, like, where Diogenes would say, yes, I've changed my mind, or, yes, this is not entirely English, not entirely consistent of me. Right. I think Rousseau was trying to make it all fit. Right. And sort of that's where he becomes a hypocrite and somewhat crazy.
- [43:20]
Ryan Holiday
I was thinking about this. Rousseau is like if Camus actually had murdered someone. You know what? Like if the stranger was in a novel and he just murdered someone just to see what it was like. Rousseau has the elements of that.
- [43:32]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it is in reference to Rousseau that this lowercase cynic word is invented. Right. And sort of then comes to mean hypocritical, or living your life as if there is no difference between good and bad.
- [43:54]
Ryan Holiday
Cynic becomes nihilist.
- [43:56]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And sort of the notion that there are no standards of justice and that it doesn't matter.
- [44:05]
Ryan Holiday
Matter.
- [44:05]
Professor Inger Kuen
Right. This is a very pessimistic worldview, which is the absolute opposite of what Diogenes thinks. Right. Diogenes thinks that it is possible to be a good person and to live a good life. And he thinks that this is something that everybody can do, and he wants to teach everybody about this.
- [44:22]
Ryan Holiday
He's an idealist. In a weird way. You know, they say, like, a cynic is a spurned idealist. He's not spurned, he just believes it. And he believes it to these preposterous extremes which he, for the most part, puts into practice.
- [44:36]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it is the fact that he really believes this, Right. That, to my mind, makes that he's absolutely not a lowercase cynic. But I think he is sort of able to be an idealist because he does not pretend to be flawless. Right. And there's this other anecdote which I really love, where he says, I'm sort of like a choir director, and I sort of give the pitch to the chorus, but I give it a little bit higher because I know that they will not quite be able to hit the tone. So if they are sort of striving for what I'm singing for them, they will get very far in the Right direction. So there is sort of this understanding that what he is doing is not systematic, is not perfect. Right. He is setting a tone for us that we can sort of go towards. And I think it is precisely because of this acceptance of this impurity that you're protected against becoming a spurned idealist. Right. Because you were never an absolutist idealist anyway. Right. And being an absolutist idealist is so dangerous because it is impossible. Right. And then once you get knocked down, once you sort of fall into the abyss, then what are you going to do? Right? Then you're sort of in this place where it's like, well, it's not possible to do the right thing anyway, so why even bother? And none of it matters. That's why you become a lowercase cynic.
- [46:21]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. If Diogenes was a cynic in that sense, he wouldn't have spent all this time trying to teach people. He would have given up on them. Like, he doesn't like some of the people in Athens, but I would. He seems like he likes the people of Athens more than Socrates does. Do you know what I mean? I just mean, like. Well, first off, he manages to be transgressive and different and provocative, and nobody kills him. Right. You know, like. Like, in a way, Diogenes has better social skills than Socrates. Like, I can't get over the fact that Socrates goes on trial and, you know, like, 51% of the jurors vote to acquit him or vote to convict him. And then when he gives his speech at sentencing, like, 55% vote to convict him to death. Like, he's so obnoxious that, you know, they say art is getting away with it. Diogenes, for the most part, gets away with it in a way that Socrates doesn't. And I think just to go against this idea of being cynical and nasty and antisocial, I think the people of Athens humor Diogenes. There is more fondness than you might presume, or it wouldn't have allowed to go on.
- [47:38]
Professor Inger Kuen
Right? Yeah. No. And I think that Diogenes shamelessness and his give and take, as it were. Right. Are what sort of. There's there's just something about the moment that allows you to. Like when. Like when you're in an exchange with Diogenes. Right. Like, somebody comes up to him and says. And says, did you know that movement is not possible? Right. And he's trying to sort of, like, open this very theoretical, complex, philosophical dilemma that people were excited about at the time. And Diogenes just gets up and walks a circle around him.
- [48:13]
Ryan Holiday
Triggers your featherless biped, Right?
- [48:15]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly, exactly. And these moments are so absurd and disarming that they allow you to look at yourself and look at the world differently in that moment in like a sort of a very performative, direct way. Whereas if you're in a conversation with Socrates and, you know, I fell in love with ancient philosophy because of Socrates, because of Plato, right? This is like. This is. These were my first. My first people and my first authors. But often when you read a Platonic dialogue where Socrates is questioning someone, it's like such. It's like such a slow.
- [48:51]
Ryan Holiday
Just say what you fucking mean, dude.
- [48:54]
Professor Inger Kuen
He makes you think that you're doing so well. He makes you think that you're, like, onto something and he's like, oh, really? Oh, really? Well, let's go to the next step. And then only at the very, very end is like, oh, wait a second. Everything of what I just said is nonsense. And we're only finding out now. Right.
- [49:14]
Ryan Holiday
I think there's, in a way, this is an extreme position, but I. There's something kind of intellectually dishonest about the Socratic method, right? Like, he's able. He knows what he thinks, but he never has to say it. He just relentlessly questions you until you question what you thought, and then his implication hangs there. Yeah, right. And I think there's something refreshing about Diogenes, who just says what he means in a clever, straightforward way from the jump.
- [49:43]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's very direct and transparent and quick. And it's, you know, it's a performance. It's a moment.
- [49:52]
Ryan Holiday
It's a punk song.
- [49:53]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, it's a moment. It's a punk song that you can share, and then you are altered. And I see I'm going to be very nuanced here. I think that the Socratic method is amazing precisely because it takes you through your own arguments and sort of. You go step by step and you sort of get there yourself. Right. And I do think that that's beautiful and that's really important. It's just that when we being interrogated.
- [50:22]
Ryan Holiday
By Socrates, though, is different.
- [50:24]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh, exactly, exactly. And also, like, when we read Plato's account of these. Of these interrogations, which, of course, you know, are written after the fact and are scripted in a certain way, it's, you know, it's just so clear and it just makes the interlocutor look so bad, and it makes, you know. And I agree with you that there are many moments where it does feel Like, Socrates is being dishonest. Like, you clearly know where this is going. Like what? Like, why does it have to be. Why does it have to be like this?
- [50:57]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. I think it was McCauley who said, the more I read about Socrates, the more I understand why they killed him. And, yeah, I just. Diogenes gets away with it, you know? And that's an impressive feat, I think. Absolutely.
- [51:09]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
- [51:10]
Ryan Holiday
Well, I think the book is amazing, and I think more people should know who he is. So thank you for writing it.
- [51:14]
Professor Inger Kuen
Thank you so much for talking with me about it.
- [51:17]
Ryan Holiday
You want to check out some books real fast?
- [51:19]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, let's do that.
- [51:20]
Ryan Holiday
Let's do it. Ooh. Okay. So do you know about Ambrose Bierce, the American cynic?
- [51:27]
Professor Inger Kuen
No.
- [51:28]
Ryan Holiday
He's like, our most famous cynic. Okay, so he wrote the Devil's Dictionary. He's known famously as the Cynic. He fights for the Union in the Civil War, and he writes this famous story called An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, which is probably the most famous. Have you heard this short story?
- [51:47]
Professor Inger Kuen
No.
- [51:47]
Ryan Holiday
It's like an amazing short story that's, like, super good. So he. Then he becomes like this sort of muckraking journalist in the Gilded Age. He's, like, contemporary with Mark Twain and stuff. And so everyone. He's like, low case cynic because he's calling out all the bullshit and the horrors of his time, but, like, people aren't getting, like, Diogenes. He's this idealist at heart. He's like, I don't understand why we're letting these railroad barons buy our democracy. And he's this fascinating guy. I think you're.
- [52:18]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh, I'm so excited.
- [52:19]
Ryan Holiday
Thank you. And so the crazy sort of irony of it is he's actually stoic. Like, his father's name is Marcus Aurelius Bierce, and his uncle, who's also a Civil War general, is named Lucius Varus Bierce. So he's kind of steeped in this classical tradition. And he's more. I don't. I haven't looked that much of what he said about Diogenes, but he has this Devil's Dictionary, which has all these, like, hilarious things like. Let me give you his. Let me give you his definition of a philosopher. It's so good. The phrasing is good. I don't want to do it. Okay. Bruce Bears.
- [52:52]
Professor Inger Kuen
I had no idea.
- [52:53]
Ryan Holiday
You never even heard of him? No.
- [52:54]
Professor Inger Kuen
I had no idea this guy existed. I am so excited. This is what I'll be reading on.
- [52:59]
Ryan Holiday
The plane and the stories are like. There's not a great biography of him. Carey McWilliams, who is like a sort of muckraking journalist in the 1900s, read a biography about him, but it's very out of print. So his definite. So the Devil's Dictionary is his most famous work because most of his journalism, other than this one short story, is all forgotten. But his definition of a philosopher is all are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.
- [53:30]
Professor Inger Kuen
That's excellent.
- [53:31]
Ryan Holiday
So that one's good. And then the two stories I would read. So he has. Okay, so, yeah. Occurrence of outgoing ridge. Start there and then read A Parker Adderson, philosopher, which is this short story about this Union soldier who's caught as a spy. And he is, like, being interrogated. And he's this brave sort of prisoner, and he's aping all the things that a stoic or a cynic would say if they're about to be sentenced to death, which he knows is his thing. And then, like, at the last second. And all of his things have a twist, so I won't. But at the last second, they tell him, oh, you're not going to be executed by firing squad. You're a spy. You're going to be hung. And then we see whether he means the philosophical pretensions or not.
- [54:20]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes.
- [54:20]
Ryan Holiday
So he's. I think you'll really like him. Okay. What else might you like? What do you think? Like, the best addition of, like, if someone is like, I want to read Diogenes other than your biography, because we've been trying to round out the plots. I think I read the Penguin collection. But what do you recommend to people?
- [54:39]
Professor Inger Kuen
I mean, I think the. I think the Penguin edition by Robin Hart is really good because it's quite complete and it has sort of like, has basically everything you need in English. There's also in this series, in this Princess series, there is a recent one.
- [55:02]
Ryan Holiday
Is there one of Diogenes?
- [55:03]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes, and I think it's called how to say no.
- [55:07]
Ryan Holiday
How to say no. Okay. This series is incredible.
- [55:10]
Professor Inger Kuen
No, it's a great series.
- [55:11]
Ryan Holiday
It's, I think, doing. I don't know why. It's also in Latin. I think it would be more accessible if it was just.
- [55:17]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh, I was just. I was just gonna say, I think it's so nice that they're bilingual because, you know, maybe it'll tempt people.
- [55:24]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [55:24]
Professor Inger Kuen
Maybe into seeing if they can read some of those on their own.
- [55:29]
Ryan Holiday
Sure.
- [55:29]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. So, yeah. How to say no Is the Princeton one about Diogenes, which I think is great.
- [55:36]
Ryan Holiday
Okay. All right. Yeah, he's sort of like. Like Musonius Rufus, where there's just not a great. Have you read this?
- [55:44]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think. I think her translation, I thought it's really good. Yeah, it's what I give to my students.
- [55:49]
Ryan Holiday
I. The title is not good. It's almost as bad as, like, cynic or stoic, where you're like, wait, so, okay, like, because it's. It so comes down to the words. Right. It's like that one should disdain hardships. To me, sounds like it's saying, like, avoid hardship.
- [56:05]
Professor Inger Kuen
Exactly.
- [56:05]
Ryan Holiday
In the same way that like. Like apathy or resignation or indifference. Are these words that, like, mean the opposite of what.
- [56:15]
Professor Inger Kuen
No, and it's exactly like also same word. Or a similar thing with scorn.
- [56:19]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [56:20]
Professor Inger Kuen
With students, like, I always talk about scoring. What do they mean, you should score? Well, what it means is that you shouldn't allow yourself to be bothered by it, but you shouldn't avoid it.
- [56:30]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
- [56:30]
Professor Inger Kuen
You should be ready for it.
- [56:31]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [56:32]
Professor Inger Kuen
If. If you encounter it, then you have to, you know, not be derailed. Right. That is what it means.
- [56:39]
Ryan Holiday
But yeah, I mean, those things better in other languages. Like. Like, how does Dutch render the. Is. Is it. Are there similar problems? Or it's like. No, no, no, because our word is, you know, like a bazillion consonants, and in it, there's.
- [56:52]
Professor Inger Kuen
There's similar problems. Yeah. I mean, there's a. You know, the only thing that. That I really like about German is that they actually came up with two different words for modern cynicism. Oh, really? And for ancient cynicism, where modern cynicism is sinismus with a Z, and then ancient cynicism is kinesmus with a K. See, that's brilliant. So that is really, really helpful. So helpful. I wish we did that in other languages, but not in Dutch, when the.
- [57:20]
Ryan Holiday
Germans also would be like, well, why don't we just mash, like, 15 words together and call that a new word?
- [57:25]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yes, they like to do that, too. But we like to do that in Dutch a little bit as well.
- [57:29]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, that's. We don't do that in English very much. I know, but the nuance of it is interesting. Have you read just. I'm writing about it now. Have you read any of Stockdale?
- [57:42]
Professor Inger Kuen
I have not.
- [57:43]
Ryan Holiday
Do you know who that is? So Stockdale, maybe. This. This book, I think, is really interesting.
- [57:49]
Professor Inger Kuen
No, I've definitely. I've definitely. I know his story, but I haven't read him It's.
- [57:54]
Ryan Holiday
It's more. It's more overtly philosophical than. Than you would think. Like, so as he's parachuting in, he says, like, he knows he's gonna. He's like, I'm entering the world of Epictetus. Like, he's explicitly thinking of a POW camp as a training ground to be a philosopher, which is heavy and very interesting.
- [58:15]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. And also so. So true to the Stoics and the Cynics.
- [58:20]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
- [58:20]
Professor Inger Kuen
To sort of say, okay, this is what I'm experiencing. This is happening to me right now, and this is what I've trained for and I'm ready for it. And it's an opportunity to sort of. To develop myself even further. And.
- [58:37]
Ryan Holiday
But also the idea that the philosophers are not having easy tenured lives.
- [58:43]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
- [58:44]
Ryan Holiday
In the sense of like. Like, even Diogenes, you.
- [58:46]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh.
- [58:47]
Ryan Holiday
But it's like he's living. Been thousands of miles from, or, I don't know, hundreds of miles, how far it is. Exactly. But he, like, exile must not have been fun. Like, he might have made a light of it, but he's sent away from where he. And he loses everything. You know, like, there is this sense of, like, I love this. They did a new edition of Victor Frankl, and it's yes to Life. And then the subtitle is In Spite of Everything. There's something about that. The ancient Stokes just having a rough go at it that I think is powerful.
- [59:17]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. And also the very basic. I mean, it almost sounds like a platitude. But I do think it's so meaningful to say that philosophy is something that you live. Right. It's something that's in your experience, and it is in the everyday, and it is in the very smallest thing and, like, in your very smallest position. And it's. It's not an armchair activity.
- [59:43]
Ryan Holiday
Well, I think that's probably why Diogenes was so dismissive of that. Like, the thing about, like, what's a human? It's a featherless biped. Or the. Like, oh, we can't walk, or, you can't move. And it's like, let me show you. He's just like, I don't have time for this bullshit. Let me. Like, these are not the questions we should be asking. The questions are not like, how do we know if we live in a computer simulation? It's like, what am I supposed to do about the fact that the government just took my stuff and threw me in jail?
- [60:10]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. Yeah. No, and especially if you were sort of pursuing all of these hyper, theoretical, abstract Questions but in your everyday life are sort of being very unreflective and very unethical. Like, I mean that, like that is what just gets Diogenes mad. Right.
- [60:30]
Ryan Holiday
Once you get off Aristotle actually working for Alexander.
- [60:35]
Professor Inger Kuen
Oh, I mean, I think, you know, I think he, he thought just as. As badly of it as he thought of Plato going to Sicily. Right. I think he would have had no, no respect.
- [60:47]
Ryan Holiday
Right. James Rom was actually just here. Yeah. I saw his book about. What's the tyrant's name? Dionysus.
- [60:55]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:55]
Ryan Holiday
Is fascinating that they would both. Because his book about Seneca. I love dying every year that two smart people would get snookered so badly by something that like. And I guess this goes to your point about being on the outside of the inside that is so trans. Was so transparently obvious to everyone else who thought about. And then you're like, oh, yeah, there's all these, like, you see it now, these smart people who, who like, there's obviously dumb people who fall for demagogues. Right. All the time. That's what a demagogue does. But what's more interesting and then of course terrifying is the mental gymnastics that a smart person can do to be like, actually this isn't horrible and it's good and that's why I should participate.
- [61:39]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and I mean, I think it's. I think it's a combination between, you know, wanting. Wanting to be. Be part of, of the moment.
- [61:48]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
- [61:48]
Professor Inger Kuen
And sort of being misguided about what. What your best. Exactly. Wanting to be in the room where it happens. Right. And being misguided about the trade off between impact and also being misguided about what impact is.
- [62:02]
Ryan Holiday
Right.
- [62:02]
Professor Inger Kuen
I mean, Diogenes goes into the marketplace because he thinks that's where it can have impact because that's where everybody will see him and, and, and talk to him and he does. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's a combination between wanting to be in the room where it happens and sort of, you know, being sensitive to status, being sensitive to status of the king and being like, well, if the king wants me to come.
- [62:28]
Ryan Holiday
Well, and also that the superpower of kings, it's the brutality often and the violence and the power, but also they're really good at provoking that reaction in people. They're really good at making you think that you're important to them and that they need you and that you can restrain them. And you know, like, the superpower is like the superpower of a Trump is his ability for every person to meet him and go, oh, it's gonna go differently with me and you. Like that Elon Musk is going to be like, no, I think it's going to go, well. It's like, anyone with like, so what is that ability? And I think that's what's. What both Plato and Nero fall for. And Diogenes has no. Like, doesn't entertain it for a second. He sees Alexander for what he is.
- [63:23]
Professor Inger Kuen
No. And I think, you know, for Diogenes, he meets Alexander. And if Alexander had wanted to change his life after he met Diogenes, great.
- [63:34]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. Right.
- [63:34]
Professor Inger Kuen
But Diogenes was not going to go to Alexander and was not going to change himself and drop everything because he thinks he's the one. And because he thinks, well, oh, it's Alexander. I mean, he was ultimately just not intimidated by Alexander. He was like, okay, Alexander is just the same. Same as the fishmonger I talked to yesterday. And if Alexander wants to talk to me, that's just as interesting as talking to the fishmonger. That's great.
- [64:03]
Ryan Holiday
But he's also, like, he's a psychopath. He probably reads. I. I bet he. I bet he sees him clearly as unchangeable in a way that Aristotle fools himself.
- [64:15]
Professor Inger Kuen
Right.
- [64:15]
Ryan Holiday
About.
- [64:16]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
- [64:16]
Ryan Holiday
You know.
- [64:17]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah.
- [64:17]
Ryan Holiday
That he would listen.
- [64:19]
Professor Inger Kuen
Yeah. No, And. And also for Diogenes, I mean, he sets the terms. Right. So, okay, if there was maybe some hope for Alexander, the very first step is that he comes to him instead of expecting Diogenes to go there. Right. So it's already in that motion that you see the big difference between Diogenes and everyone else, that he won't go and visit him.
- [64:46]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. I have a quote that I keep next to my desk where soft. And I think they were Pompey's last words. It's a line from Soft Quiz. He says, whoever goes to the court of a tyrant becomes his slave, even if he goes there a free man. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. Limu Game and Doug Here we have the Limu Imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us.
- [65:54]
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Ryan Holiday
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Professor Inger Kuen
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- [66:02]
Ryan Holiday
Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show but not listen to ads, well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you a ad free version of Daily Stoic Stoic. We're calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast completely ad free. No interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for. And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium and we are offering a limited time discount of 20% off your first year. Just go to Dailystoic.com premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.