This Is The Highest Form Of Courage | Stop Caring What People Think

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Daily Stoic

Episode: This Is The Highest Form Of Courage | Stop Caring What People Think
Date: May 26, 2025
Host: Ryan Holiday

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the highest form of courage: heroism that goes beyond personal gain, focusing on sacrificing for others and the greater good. Timed to coincide with Memorial Day, Ryan Holiday uses the lessons of Stoicism—and examples from history—to discuss selflessness, the nature of true valor, and the perils of overvaluing others’ opinions. The episode weaves together meditation on sacrifice, memorable stories of Stoic heroes, and practical advice on caring less about external approval.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Courage and Heroism

[00:05–03:57]

• Different Levels of Courage:
  • Regular courage is often motivated by clear rewards or personal gain, but true heroism is driven by self-sacrifice for the benefit of others.
• Memorial Day Reflection:
  • Holiday draws from Memorial Day to urge listeners to consider "human valor"—why some people give everything for ideals or others.
• Misunderstandings About Sacrifice:
  • Some people are baffled by selfless sacrifice, with Holiday citing a "craven man" who, upon seeing a military cemetery, asks, “What was in it for them?”
  • He distinguishes between humility-driven wonder at such sacrifice and transactional, selfish confusion.
• Historical Examples:
  • Stoic figures such as Cato and his daughter Portia, Thracia, Helvidius, and Rutilius Rufus are cited as epitomes of heroism:
    • Cato: “chose death over kneeling to Caesar.”
    • Portia: “following suit by swallowing hot coals.”
    • Rutilius Rufus: “gave up his home and his livelihood rather than be sucked into Rome’s culture of corruption.”
    • James Stockdale: as a POW, tried to take his life to end the torture for others.
  • Emphasizes there was “nothing in it” for these people except adherence to ideals.
• The Power and Rarity of True Heroism:
  • True heroism “shames us, humbles us…moves us beyond reason.”
  • “It came from something beyond reason...they died so that we could live.”
  • Listeners are encouraged to actively wrestle with what this level of sacrifice means for their own lives.

“True heroism shames us. It humbles us. It moves us beyond reason because it came from something beyond reason.”
— Ryan Holiday [03:35]

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2. The Stoic Practice of Not Caring What Others Think

[04:46–08:40]

• Marcus Aurelius on Self-Esteem vs. Others’ Opinions:
  • Daily Stoic Quote (Meditations 12.14):

    "I’m constantly amazed by how easily we love ourselves above all others. Yet we put more stock in the opinions of others than in our own estimation of self."

  • Reflection: We often discard our own judgments in favor of what others think, leading to self-doubt and insecurity.
• Practical Examples:
  • Changing feelings about clothes based on comments from others.
  • Only feeling validated when third parties approve of our talents or successes.
• The Danger of Outsourced Validation:
  • We control our opinions, not others’, so striving for approval is “a dangerous endeavor.”
  • Focus should be on "the results, the impact, and whether it is the right thing to do."
• Cato as a Role Model:
  • Cato’s chosen lifestyle (walking barefoot, no fancy clothes, no hat) was an exercise in “not caring what other people thought about him, not caring about his reputation.”
    • Prepared him to withstand public judgment and be the lone voice against Caesar and dangerous trends.
  • “He’s practiced for this very moment.”
• Personal Relevance—Parenting:
  • Holiday relates not caring about others’ judgments to parental choices:
    • Prioritizing time and authenticity with family over pleasing others.
    • Warning that worrying about looking “silly or stupid” can rob you of joy and memories with children.
• Call to Action:
  • "We respect ourselves. We know what’s important to us...So why do we care what other people think?…We have to get comfortable being judged.”

“Like most Stoic exercises, this one attempts to teach us that although we control our own opinions, we don’t control what other people think about us…putting ourselves at the mercy of these opinions...are a dangerous endeavor.”
— Ryan Holiday [05:47]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sacrifice and Valor:

  “There is courage, we could say, and then there is heroism, the highest form of courage...”
  — Ryan Holiday [02:35]

• On the Opinions of Others:

  “How quickly we disregard our own feelings about something and adopt someone else’s… We can be immensely happy with our own lives until we find out that someone we don’t like has even more…”
  — Ryan Holiday [05:31]

• On Practicing for Adversity:

  “Cato sort of marches to the beat of his own drummer…these things he was pursuing were good unto themselves. But what he was really doing is practicing not caring what other people thought about him, not caring about his reputation.”
  — Ryan Holiday [06:30]

• On Parenting Giving Clarity:

  “Being a parent has been very good for me in this… If I say yes, yes, yes to all the stuff I don’t want to do, that comes out of the time that I spend with my family.”
  — Ryan Holiday [07:13]

• On Living Authentically:

  “We have to get comfortable being judged. We have to be comfortable sitting with our own self estimation. We have to be comfortable with what we know is the right thing to do…”
  — Ryan Holiday [08:05]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 — Introduction and theme of courage & heroism
• 01:20 — Story of misunderstanding sacrifice (“What was in it for them?”)
• 02:35 — Historical examples of Stoic heroism
• 03:35 — Reflection on the transformative power of true heroism
• 04:51 — Transition to theme: Caring less about others’ opinions
• 05:47 — Marcus Aurelius quote; the dangers of wanting approval
• 06:30 — Story of Cato as a Stoic exemplar
• 07:13 — Parenting and making values-based choices
• 08:05 — Conclusion: Seek impact, not approval

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

Ryan Holiday’s delivery is contemplative, admiring the gravity of self-sacrifice and the challenge of real independence from others' judgments. He encourages listeners to reflect deeply on the meaning of valor, especially on Memorial Day, and to cultivate the courage to live on their own terms, both in grand moral matters and in daily life.

“We know what we value. So why do we care what other people think?”
— Ryan Holiday [08:00]

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For more Stoic meditations, visit DailyStoic.com

Transcript

[Ryan Holiday]

Foreign.

[Stephen Hanselman]

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we bring you a Stoic inspired meditation designed to help you find strength and insight and wisdom into everyday life. Each one of these episodes is based on the 2000 year old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women to help you learn from them, to follow in their example, and to start your day off with a little dose of courage and discipline and justice and wisdom. For more, visit Dailystoic.com Courage often has clear rewards. One takes a risk because there is hope for a payoff, something that others are afraid to reach for. But what about sacrificing oneself or sacrificing everything for something? Human folly, a historian once said, is easier to explain than human valor. On Memorial Day, it is worth reflecting on this very beautiful and almost baffling bit of human greatness. And indeed, it is utterly inexplicable to some. A particularly craven man once stood in a military cemetery and looked out over the graves of those who had been lost in the nation's wars over the centuries. I don't get it, he said derisively. What was in it for them? When most people ask that question, it's out of a kind of humility and awe, a desire to understand an incredible phenomenon. But for the transactional, the cowardly or the selfish, the bafflement is sincere. Why would anyone give up their life for someone else? What kind of deal is that? There is courage, we could say, and then there is heroism, the highest form of courage, the kind embodied in those who are willing to give, perhaps give everything for someone else. Cato, who chose death over kneeling to Caesar, and his daughter Portia, following suit by swallowing hot coals. Thracia and Helvidius, who died in resistance to Nero. Rutilius Rufus, who gave up his home and his livelihood rather than be sucked into Rome's culture of corruption. Stockdale, who perhaps thinking of Cato, tried to kill himself to end the torture of his fellow POWs. There was nothing in it for these men and women, just as there was nothing in it for the soldiers who perished in uniform for their country. But they did it because they knew it wasn't about them. It was about the person next to them. It was about the people back home. It was about the ideals to which they had sworn to uphold and protect. True heroism shames us. It humbles us. It moves us beyond reason because it came from something beyond reason. It's self evident why the survival rate of those who manage to touch this greatness is not high. But then again, that is the beauty of it. They died so that we could live. And we fail them and we fail ourselves if we don't wrestle with the meaning of this sacrifice. Happy Memorial Day, everyone. I hope you're enjoying your family. And I hope, as I said, you are wrestling with with this form of greatness. Some are called to give. I'm picking up my kids from school in a little bit, and then we're going to go to Whole Foods. They want to eat sushi.

[Ryan Holiday]

I got to get groceries. We play a game where they try.

[Stephen Hanselman]

To throw as much stuff into the cart as they can get away with. And then I see what I can get away with sneaking out of the cart. But this is kind of our weekly routine. We go to Whole Foods all the time, and when we're not physically near a Whole Foods like in Austin, we get it delivered. I'm a big fan of Whole Foods, actually. In my talk in Austin just the other day, I talked about John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods. Cause I love Whole Foods commitment to high standards for their ingredients and sourcing, how they treat their vendors, the dyes they keep out of their food, the preservatives they keep out of their food, most of the staples in our pantry, in our freezer, as well as the fruit that my kids go through like maniacs. It all comes not just from Whole Foods, but from their house brand. 365 by Whole Foods Market.

[Ryan Holiday]

You can enjoy so many ways to.

[Stephen Hanselman]

Save on cozy fall meals at Whole Foods Market.

[Ryan Holiday]

I'll see you there. Stop caring what people think. This is May 26, the Daily Stoic. And the quote today is from Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 1214. I'm constantly amazed by how easily we love ourselves above all others. Yet we put more stock in the opinions of others than in our own estimation of self. How much credence we give to the opinions of our peers and how little to our very own. Then the meditation says how quickly we disregard our own feelings about something and adopt someone else's. We think a shirt looks good at the store, but view it with shame and scorn if our spouse or co worker makes an offhanded remark. We can be immensely happy with our own lives until we find out that someone we don't like has even more or worse or more precariously. We can feel good about our accomplishments or talents until some third party validates them. Like most stoic exercises, this one attempts to teach us that although we control our own opinions, we don't control what Other people think about us, about ourselves least of all. And for this reason, putting ourselves at the mercy of these opinions and trying to gain the approval of others are a dangerous endeavor. Don't spend too much time thinking about what other people think. Think about what you think. Think instead about the results, about the impact, and about whether it is the right thing to do. I think about Cato when I think about this idea. So Cato famously is very wealthy, but he lives quite frugally. He doesn't wear a hat when he walks outside in Rome. He doesn't wear a fancy toga. He's often barefoot. These are things that people would have thought to be low class or out of style. Cato sort of marches to the beat of his own drummer. And I think those things he was pursuing were good unto themselves. But what I think he was really doing is practicing, cultivate, not caring what other people thought about him, not caring about his reputation. And so, famously, when public opinion changes in Rome, Caesar appeals to the masses. Rome is going in a dangerous direction. Cato doesn't go with the tide. He stands for what's right. He stands for what he believes. He doesn't care that he's often the odd man out. People are questioning him, that people are judging him. He's practiced for this very moment. And I don't think it's just big stuff like this. I mean, it's about cultivating that sense of what you need to do, what you think about what's right for your family, what's right for yourself, and then being okay, being judged or looked at askance or whatever. I mean, being a parent has been very good for me in this. Right. Like, maybe you don't like to hurt other people's feelings. You don't like to say no. You don't want people to know how you think about things. But with a kid, you're like, oh, no, this isn't about me. If I say yes, yes, yes to all the stuff I don't want to do that comes out of the time that I spend with my family. Or if you are really conscious about what other people think about you, if they think you look silly or stupid, think about the laughs that deprives you of with your kids. Think about the memories that this deprives you of with your kids. Think about how buttoned up and restrained this makes you. We respect ourselves. We know what's important to us. We know what we value. So why do we care what other people think? Right? We don't control it. And we have to get comfortable being judged. We have to be comfortable sitting with our own self estimation. We have to be comfortable with what we we know is the right thing to do, about what the results are of our decisions, about the impact we're trying to have. And that's what matters.

[Stephen Hanselman]

Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic Podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it.

[Ryan Holiday]

We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30.

[Stephen Hanselman]

Million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple years we been doing it. It's an honor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Please spread the word, tell people about it.

[Stephen Hanselman]

And this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say thank you.

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[Stephen Hanselman]

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[Ryan Holiday]

They are to be avoided if at all possible.

[Stephen Hanselman]

I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show but not listen to ads, well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you a ad free version of Daily Stoic. We're calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast completely ad free. No interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for. And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium and we are offering a limited time discount of 20% off your first year. Just go to daily st.stoic.com premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.