Zain Asher (5:27)

For centuries, leaders, generals and politicians have been inspired by the thoughts and writings of thinkers like Marcus Aurelius, the essence of his teachings. How do we learn to live well in a world that we simply cannot control? And what would that mean for our peace of mind? Our next guest says that he was introduced to the philosophy of stoicism about two decades ago. Ryan Holiday joins us live now from Austin, Texas. He's the host of the podcast the Daily Stoic and the author of several books. Many of them I read myself, including his latest one Wisdom Takes Work, Learn, Apply, and Repeat. Ryan, so, so good to have you on the program. I am a huge fan of yours. Obviously, I am a news anchor and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that the news cycle feels relentless. It feels very emotionally charged. What does stoicism have to teach us about how we can respond or how we should respond to injustice? Ryan?

Ryan Holiday (6:28)

Yeah, Stoicism is ultimately a philosophy about acceptance, accepting things that are outside your control. But the one area that the Stoics are quite clear, that we don't accept things that we do respond is in the case of injustice, the four Stoic virtues being courage, self discipline, justice, and wisdom. And I think courage and justice come together there. To sort of turn away, to not pay attention because it's upsetting to you is obviously wrong. And we have Marx, Aurelius, the emperor of Rome, saying that to himself. A reminder that injustices is not just something you do. You can also commit an injustice, he said, by doing nothing, by saying, that's not my problem. That doesn't affect me, by looking for excuses. So the Stoics are actively involved in the world. They just try to be in command of themselves while doing so.

Zain Asher (7:21)

That's such an important point because I think a lot of people, you know, when I first discovered Stoicism, I think my misinterpretation was that it was similar to sort of apathy and disengagement, but it's not like that at all. Does anger have a role to play in stoicism?

Ryan Holiday (7:39)

Yeah, I think being Upset when you see something outrageous is natural and human, but it is precisely when the stakes are high. It is precisely when people are counting on you or you're in some position of responsibility that you can't afford to go around being outraged and acting on that emotion. The Stoics were often sort of connected to the halls of power. And we have one Stoic, his name is Athena Doris, and he's advising the first emperor of Rome, Octavian, the future Augustus. And he tells him that whenever he's upset, he has to first count all 24 letters of the Alphabet. It was too shorter then. And he says you have to count all the letters of the Alphabet before you respond. And I think pausing and reflecting before taking action is a big part of what Stoicism teaches us. It's not that you don't take the action, it's that you don't want to take it while you're angry, while you're blinded by fear or jealousy or whatever strong emotion is coming up, that's not what you want informing what you do.

Zain Asher (8:43)

What I find so interesting is how so many of these philosophies overlap. I practice Kabbalah and that is a big part of it, pausing before any kind of emotional response. So one of my questions to you is really just moving away from the new cycle, just talking about some of the issues that people might be dealing with in their everyday life. Two people can go through the same thing. A divorce, heartbreak, your boyfriend breaks up with you, death in the family, somebody gets cancer, who you care about, you get cancer. One person collapses under all of that pressure. Totally understandable. Another person adapts. What determines the difference between the two? Ryan?

Ryan Holiday (9:20)

I. I don't know. I. That's one of the great mysteries of life. Why? Why? One person responds this way and another this way. And I think the same person might be able to deal with something heart wrenching, like cancer, and then their car breaks down. And that's devastating. So I think so much depends on the circumstances, depends on the moment. What the Stoics try to teach us though, is that when we are challenged by life, the point is to rise and to meet that challenge. It's not to turn away from it, it's not to wish it was otherwise, it's not to blame it on other people, but to say to yourself, what does this give me an opportunity to do right? What can I learn from this? How can I be of service to others through this? What virtue is being asked of me here? And in this way, even the most difficult and unfair and challenging of circumstances presents us an opportunity to be better for it. It's not going to be fun while we're going through it, but afterwards we can look back and go, hey, who I am now is only possible because of how I responded to what happened then.

Zain Asher (10:26)

I loved what you said about just now about what virtue is being asked of me here. Sort of using some of the challenges that you might experience to be of service to others. That's a big part of Kabbalah as well. And it sounds stoicism too. You know, it's one thing to practice stoicism by yourself in your bedroom when your life is going well and when your life is so, when things are going smoothly, but when you are really tested, when the rubber meets the road and something goes wrong in your life, like you lose your job, for example, it's very easy people to then sort of abandon. I don't have time for stoicism right now. I need to deal with this. How do you make sure that you incorporate everything that you've learned in private to when it really matters when you are being tested?

Ryan Holiday (11:05)

Yeah, it's easy to be stoic about something when you're not being tested. When it's easy, it is precisely in moments of extreme success, but also extreme difficulty and adversity that I think we're most called to sort of have that even keel to have that self command. So if it was easy, everyone would do it. If this was just something you were born with, it wouldn't be that impressive either. So it's important that we see that, that this is work, it's hard work. It's not something you read once and you magically have it's work and we should be getting better at it as we go. That is how we turn obstacles into opportunities in one most simple way, which is we go, hey, I'm getting practice dealing with stuff like this and it's going to prepare me and make me better for when I have to deal with something even more difficult than this at some point down the road. So I just try to think about it always as I'm getting reps. I don't want to be having this conversation. I don't want to be dealing with this. I would love the news to be positive instead of negative, but it isn't. And so I'm getting practice dealing with precisely that.

Zain Asher (12:15)

Ryan, thank you so much for your work. I mean, obviously I've read the Obstacle is the Way and just, just in terms of really sort of teaching me how to respond to the challenges that we all experience in life. My self esteem, I mean I've been through quite a bit over the past couple of years and just what you have taught me about how to react and how to respond rather than react has been life changing. So I thank you for that. Ryan Holiday Live for us. Thank you so much.

Ryan Holiday (12:44)

Hey it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple years we've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it. And this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say thank you. Foreign.

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