This Will Define Your Legacy | Forgive Them Because They Don't Know

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast

Episode: This Will Define Your Legacy | Forgive Them Because They Don't Know
Host: Ryan Holiday
Date: July 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is split into two distinct Stoic lessons. First, Ryan Holiday examines how the virtue of discipline shapes legacy, unpacking real historical contrasts between prominent American Founders. Second, he delves deeply into the concept of forgiveness, linking Stoic views with Christian teachings—illustrating how a generous spirit not only benefits the world but enriches ourselves.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Virtue of Discipline and Its Impact on Legacy

(00:07 - 03:08)

• Discipline as a Defining Virtue:
  • Ryan frames the episode’s first theme: that discipline—one of Stoicism’s four key virtues (courage, discipline, justice, wisdom)—is not simply a moral ideal but a fundamental determinant of personal legacy.
• Contrasting Legacies of the Founding Fathers:
  • George Washington vs. Thomas Jefferson:
    • Both profited from slavery and understood its wrongness, but only Washington freed his slaves at the end of his life.
    • Jefferson, renowned for eloquence on equality, died deeply in debt after years of extravagant living, unable to “afford redemption” (00:36).
      • “Jefferson the Epicurean was more than $100,000 in debt when he died...he couldn’t remotely afford redemption.” (00:57)
  • Discipline’s Compounding Effect:
    • Washington’s self-control afforded him the means and freedom to finally enact his conscience; Jefferson’s lack of discipline left him trapped.
  • Broader Stoic Examples:
    • In the Roman Empire, austere Stoics like Agrippinas and Thrasia fared better under danger than Seneca, who indulged in luxury (01:56).
• John Adams as the Stoic Ideal:
  • Adams lived a modest, honest, and frugal life—never exploiting others, never owning slaves, and dying with modest assets but a clear conscience (02:21).
    • “His self discipline intersected with his ethics...When he died on the same day as Jefferson, his estate was the exact inverse of his old friend’s $100,000 bequest to his family.” (02:29)
• Central Insight:
  • “Discipline makes you better in life and in death.” (03:07)

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2. Forgive Them Because They Don’t Know

(05:20 - 10:27)

• Core Stoic and Biblical Teaching on Forgiveness:
  • “Forgive them because they don’t know.” — Ryan draws from Marcus Aurelius (Meditations 7.6) and Plato, echoing the biblical words of Jesus on the cross.
    • “As Plato said, every soul is deprived of truth against its will. The same holds true for justice, self control, goodwill to others, and every similar virtue.” (05:24)
• Parallels Between Seneca and Jesus:
  • Both were contemporary philosophers, both suffered and were executed, and both taught profound lessons on enduring injustice with magnanimity (05:44).
  • Recalls Jesus’ words in extreme suffering:
    • “Jesus looked upward and said simply, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (06:21)
• Stoicism on Human Error:
  • Marcus Aurelius argues that people act wrongly out of ignorance; by seeing this, one can be more gentle and forgiving.
    • *“Why are they like this? They are like this because they can’t tell good from evil...but I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the daily Stoic podcast, designed

[B]

to help bring those four key Stoic

[A]

virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom, into the real world. This will define your legacy. It doesn't seem like a moral question. It seems more like a personal choice. How you spend your money, whether you save or invest or spend or enjoy how you spend your time, whether you fritter it away or you spend it on pursuits and people most important to you, whether you're Stoic or Epicurean. But discipline, temperance, the Stoics believed, was a virtue for a reason. We've been talking about the Founding Fathers a lot here for the 250th anniversary of America, and you can see as you contrast the Founders, just how important this virtue is. Both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington profited from slavery, and both knew it was wrong. Yet at the end of their lives, it was Washington who freed his slaves, not Jefferson, even though Jefferson had written far more eloquently about human equality as well as the eternal shame of slavery. Why is this? Well, it's partly because Washington, far more disciplined and Stoic, could afford to manumit his slaves early on. He hadn't been able to afford to run Mount Vernon without them, but he was secure enough at the end of his life to do what he obviously should have done, what his conscience knew he should have done years earlier. Jefferson the Epicurean, was more than $100,000 in debt when he died. He had ransacked Europe for antiques and finer. He had expanded his estate multiple times, sparing no expense. He loved wine and the best foods, and so he couldn't remotely afford redemption. He was scared of leaving nothing to his children. He could not afford to do the right thing. Discipline as a virtue, then, is related to the other virtues. By controlling our urges, our wants, our

[B]

lifestyle, we're actually in a better position

[A]

to be courageous and just. Financial independence. These things free us up in ways that other more irresponsible and conflicted people cannot be. And we see this clearly with the range of Stoic responses in the reign of Nero. The more austere and disciplined Stoics, Agrippinas and Thrasia, did far better than the high living Seneca. I tell this story in Lives of

[B]

the Stoics, but a better example is

[A]

found in John Adams, who, like the other Founders, had read all the Stoics. But he lived a far more frugal and laborious life than either the manner born Jefferson or Washington did. His self discipline intersected with his ethics. He made an honest living as a lawyer, as a diplomat and finally as an elected official, he never owned another human being. He never exploited anyone. He didn't crave fancy things or grand houses. And when he died on the same day as Jefferson, his estate was the exact inverse of his old friends $100,000 bequest to his family. In short, discipline makes you better in life and in death.

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[A]

Forgive them because they don't know.

[B]

This is Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 7, 6. He says, as Plato said, every soul is deprived of truth against its will. The same holds true for justice, self control, goodwill to others, and every similar virtue. It's essential to constantly keep this in your mind, for it will make you more gentle to all. I tell a biblical story here. I think it's interesting to think that, you know, Seneca and Jesus are born roughly the same time, both live in the same empire, both come from provinces of the Roman Empire, both were enormously popular philosophers in their own life, and both are ultimately put to death. You can read Tacitus and hear of the death of Jesus. And you can also read Tacitus and

[A]

hear of the death of Seneca as he wound his way up the Via

[B]

Doloroso on the top of Calvary Hill. Jesus, or Christus, as he would have been known to Seneca and other Roman contemporaries, he had suffered immensely. He had been beaten and flogged and stabbed, forced to bear his own cross, and was set to be crucified on it next to two common criminals. There he watched the soldiers roll dice to see who would get to keep his clothes, listened as the people sneered and taunted him. Whatever your religious inclinations, the words that Jesus spoke next, considering they came as he was subjected to unimaginable human suffering, send chills down your spine. Jesus looked upward and said simply, father, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. This is the same truth that Plato spoke centuries earlier that Marcus spoke almost two centuries after Jesus. Other Christians must have spoken this truth as they were cruelly executed by the Romans under Marcus's reign. Forgive them. They are deprived of truth. They wouldn't do this if they weren't. Use this knowledge to be gentle and gracious. I think that's something that Marcus realizes. He goes, hey, not everyone has the privilege and wealth and power that I have. But also, they haven't been availed of Stoic philosophy. I mean, let's go to the opening passage in Book two of Meditations, right? The famous one that's supposedly Marcus writing people off for being annoying and obnoxious and awful, right? What does Marcus say? He lists all the frustrating things they're going to do, and he says, why are they like this? They are like this because they can't tell good from evil. Or he says, but I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own. Not of the same blood or birth, but of the same mind, possessing a share of the divine. So none of them can hurt me, he says. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative or hate him. We are born to work together, like feet and hands and eyes, like two rows of teeth upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him. These are obstructions, he's saying, forgive them, he's saying, understand them. He even talks about forgiveness in meditations where he says, like, remember when you have acted like that. And then of course, there is a whole chapter in part three of Right Thing Right now, which I hope you

[A]

have read on page two.

[B]

7 5. I tell a story about forgiveness because it's such an important biblical concept and an important stoic concept and an important virtuous concept concept. I tell the story of James Lawson, who meets and tries to forgive Martin Luther King Jr. S assassin, James Earl Ray. And he gets asked by Ray to minister to him. He asks him eventually to officiate his wedding. And Lawson is asking his family at dinner if he should do this. And as I write he says it was a short conversation. Almost before he could finish, Lawson's 17 year old son was answering. Well, his son said, not even needing to look up from his food, if you believe all this stuff you've been preaching all these years, he'll do it. And I say it's important to note that Jesus didn't just preach forgiveness. On that one occasion on the cross before his death, he was asked about forgiveness by Peter. Knowing that forgiveness was important, Peter asked just how many times he should forgive his brother. Was it one time for one mistake? Should he forgive him seven times? I do not say to you up to seven times, Jesus replied, but up to 77 times. And in fact, according to some translations, Jesus actually said 70 times 7. But even this understates it, because the whole basis of Christianity is that because God has forgiven each person totally and completely, a Christian must in turn do the same. And then I say, whatever your spirituality, the same bargain stands. Someone kind, someone generous, someone we didn't even know has forgiven us at least once. In fact, life has given you countless second chances. Chance after chance after chance. Justice would have cut you off a

[A]

long time ago, but here you are.

[B]

We carry that debt now, and so we must forgive others. Better yet, we have the power to enrich ourselves in the world by actively investing this forgiveness wherever possible, wherever we have the opportunity to provide grace to someone who has trespassed against us.

[A]

I go on.

[B]

There's another great story of Marcus and forgiveness. The point is, let's practice a little forgiveness today. Let's give some grace. Not expect it, but give it. That's today's lesson.

[A]

I hope all of you are well.

[B]

Talk soon.

[D]

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