Ryan Holiday (3:21)

Notes.

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Ryan Holiday (6:06)

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another Thursday episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. As you know, on Thursdays we do Q and A's. This is an interesting episode because it almost didn't happen. So every once in a while I'll get a media request like would I come on this radio show or this TV show? And back in mid November, Boris Sanchez and CNN reached out to ask if I would come on and just sort of talk about some of the themes in the wisdom book. And I said sure, I would love to. I didn't have to go to New York or go anywhere. I could just do it from the Daily Stokes studio. So as I went on, I think I was supposed to go on at 2:30 and I got in there, you know, they report it at 2:10 or whatever and they do the sound check and all this and they go, okay, slight problem. The President is giving a talk, Locke, and we have no idea how long it's going to go. So there's a couple segments before you. But basically it was like sitting in traffic. Right. We're going to have to wait for him to finish and then this and then this and then this. You know, like when you're at the airport and there's like five other planes in front of you. So I had to sit there and watch the news for a while. And then we had a lovely little talk about some of the themes from the wisdom book. And I thought I would bring that to you now. I hope you like it. Boris Sanchez has been a wonderful supporter of the book.

Ryan Holiday (7:21)

He's great at what he does.

Ryan Holiday (7:23)

I texted him a while ago. I won't put him on the spot, but one of the guests had sort of really gone at him and it was interesting. I was saying I was admiring his self control and poise on live television. So I tried to be patient and not get anxious or nervous as I did this thing. Being on live television is quite stressful. I'll let you decide how I did and hopefully answering some of these questions might be of interest to you. Thanks to folks at CNN and talk to you tomorrow.

CNN Host (7:58)

Tucker Carlson and his friendly interview with Nick Fuentes, a white nationalist and Holocaust denier. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have criticized Fuentes and Carlson, saying that this kind of dialogue has no place in civil society. President Trump, though, last night shared a different view.

Ryan Holiday (8:18)

We've had some great interviews with Tucker Carlson, but you can't tell him who to interview. I mean, if he wants to interview Nick Fuentes, I don't know much about him, but if he wants to do it, get the word out, let him. You know, people have to decide. Ultimately, people have to decide.

CNN Host (8:34)

Let's discuss this and more with Ryan Holiday. He's the author of the new book Wisdom Takes Work, his latest on stoic philosophy. Ryan, thank you so much as always for joining us. Given that we've talked about the dangers of suppressing certain ideas before, I wonder what your take is on this. If the president has a point that in a free society, you can't restrict who can be interviewed or the ideas that we find heinous. Do you think, though, that platforming and normalizing hatred and bigotry crosses the line in this regard?

Ryan Holiday (9:05)

Well, there's a line in the legal community that, that everyone's entitled to a lawyer, but that doesn't have to be you. So in the abstract, sure, free speech is great.

Ryan Holiday (9:16)

We should hear divergent opinions. And then you, as the person who has a podcast, who has a platform, who has influence, you know, you should sit down and go, hey, do I want a platform? Do I want to sit across from a rabid, anti Semite and neo Nazi? And I think that's the interesting thing about where we are now. These, these aren't abstract or theoretical debates about free speech. These are, what are you doing with your platform and your audience? Who are you endorsing? Co signing by putting them in front of millions of people? And I just think with power, with influence comes responsibility, and we're dealing with the consequences of a society where that seemingly basic premise is not shared by everyone. Yeah.

CNN Host (10:05)

To that point, I wanted to ask you about the idea of working toward wisdom in an era where truth itself is elusive, not only because we're drowning in information and disinformation, bombarded by propaganda and brain rot, but also because of the notion, this, like, post structuralist, postmodern idea, that truth is ultimately subjective and largely determined by authority, by those in power. So if wisdom takes work and we're seeking it, how do you know what's true?

Ryan Holiday (10:36)

Yeah, I think we have a recency bias in most of our information diet. Obviously, we're talking here on television. You guys break all sorts of important news. But I think to be able to make sense of what's happening of the present moment, you have to root your understanding, you have to root your perspective in history and truth. I think it was Truman who said, the only thing new in the world is, is history that you don't yet know. And so I think too many people are consuming the latest speculation on social media, the latest breaking headlines, but they struggle to make sense of it, to separate, you know, speculation from truth, information from misinformation or disinformation, because they don't have the historical basis or they don't understand even, you know, sort of human nature, human psychology, or even just how the government works. And so I think. I think it is imperative that we all try to remain informed. I just would urge people to remember that getting it as it happens is not always the best way to do it. And it's hard to do it if you haven't based it on this sort of historical perspective.

CNN Host (11:45)

That's a really important point. It's also interesting because Stoic philosophy also encourages us to take control of our perceptions, to own that our mindset is. Is a choice, and that it shapes how we experience the world around us. You often quote Seneca. You know, I'm a fan. We dye events with our own color. So then where do you draw the line between that sort of cognitive training, that reframing, and then delusion or denial or delving into ideas that may feel good but are harmful not only to yourself, but to society?

Ryan Holiday (12:20)

Yeah. At the core of Stoic philosophy is this idea that events are objective and our opinions about them are not. Our responses about them is the important thing. And so I think I would urge people, especially if you find yourself getting triggered, getting upset, get despairing, getting ecstatic about what you're hearing on the news, to ask yourself, hey, is this actually the right response? You know, how can I step. Do I have to have an opinion about this? So philosophy is the idea that you have the initial reaction, the initial emotion, and then you put that, that opinion, that reaction to the test. And you ask yourself, is this healthy? Is this constructive? Is this based on anything real? The Stoics said that a great philosopher could tell the way a money changer, by banging a coin on the table, can hear if it's real or counterfeit. And I think we have to cultivate this ability, especially not just in a world of a lot of information, but a world of AI and deepfakes, you know, the ability to suss out, hey, is this real? Is this true or not? And is my reaction, is that what they were trying to provoke in me? These are all really important skills, discipline, really, that we have to cultivate if we want to have wisdom and truth.

CNN Host (13:35)

The book is Wisdom Takes Work. It is worth your time. Ryan Holiday. We always appreciate yours. Thanks for joining us.

Ryan Holiday (13:43)

Thanks for having me.

Ryan Holiday (13:47)

Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple years we've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it. And this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say thank you.

CNN Host (14:20)

You hear that?

Ryan Holiday (14:21)

That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds, no alerts, no distractions, and no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour.

CNN Host (14:39)

So why would you ever take a.

Ryan Holiday (14:41)

Tour when you could take a detour?

CNN Host (14:44)

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