Toyota Trucks Advertiser (4:48)

The world is full of tours.

Moderator / Interviewer (4:53)

But.

Toyota Trucks Advertiser (4:53)

You don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path.

Toyota Trucks Advertiser (4:57)

You choose it to find the places in between.

Toyota Trucks Advertiser (5:02)

The detours where each adventure pulls you toward the next and wrong turns to the right. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour?

Ryan Holiday (5:16)

Toyota Trucks thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastow County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought, this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us. Not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the Hill Country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids, who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota Adventure Detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory. Learn more@toyota.com Trucks Adventure detours.

Ryan Holiday (6:55)

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another Thursday episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We know what trauma does to the body, like mental, emotional, spiritual trauma, but then also, like, you get in an accident, you injure yourself playing sports, something happens to you, right? The body can take a beating, and so we know the negative consequences of that. But there's also this thing I talk about in the obstacles, the way this idea of post traumatic growth. How do you bounce back? How do you learn from it? How do you grow as a result of what's happened? And back a couple months ago, I went to the annual assembly of the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. Basically, doctors who help people recover from brain and spine and nerve injuries. These are people who help patients through, like, the worst things that can happen to the body, right? Strokes and spinal injuries, amputations, burn, recovery, mass shootings, trauma from accidents, trauma from war, right? The roughest stuff. They have to help people recover, rehabilitate, rebuild, to learn to move again, and most of all, not to give up. So this was a pretty interesting audience. They wanted me to talk about turning trials into triumphs, which obviously I know about from the stoic perspective. But I felt like they had a lot to teach me from a medical standpoint. So it was a lovely conversation. Maybe I'll bring you a chunk of the talk at some point, but this is the Q and A that I did After, I think you're really gonna like it. I was interviewed by Dr. Scott Laker, who moderated the Q and A. And anyways, let me just bring you a chunk of this. I think you'll like it. And by the way, if you want to come ask me a question, I'm gonna be doing two talks, San Diego and Phoenix here in February. You can grab tickets@daily stoiclive.com.

Moderator / Interviewer (8:43)

I'm going to combine two questions here. How do you counter when people conflate being stoic from being a stoic? And if you could combine that with how do you balance stoicism with optimism?

Dr. Scott Laker (8:54)

Yeah, I mean, when I think about Marcus Realis's life, what he went through, and I only got into a fraction of it, he buried half of the. His children. That this guy got out of bed every morning to me was a profound act of optimism, to say nothing of the fact that he tried to get up early and get after it. Like, that's a person who obviously believes in a better future, believes in one's ability to make a difference, who believes that what they do matters. So sometimes from the writings of the stoics, it can feel a little dark or depressing, but life is a little dark and depressing, especially when you're dealing with stuff they were dealing with and I'm sure some of the stuff that you guys have to deal with on a daily basis, it would be almost insulting to just put rose colored glasses on it. That being said, how do you keep going? How do you stay at it? How do you stay, you know, stay interested, stay engaged? That to me is where the hope is. So the optimism isn't. Yeah, you know, just pasting a smile on, on. To me, the optimism is in what you do.

Moderator / Interviewer (9:57)

If you're comfortable sharing what's an example of how you've implemented this mindset in your own life? I know you mentioned a few, but there's still more questions.

Dr. Scott Laker (10:04)

Yeah, I mean, it's funny when you write about obstacles, people always go towards, like, what's the biggest obstacle you've ever dealt with? Like, like, as if it's this thing you apply once to. Like, well, you know, my whole family died in an accident. And then this terrible, like it's this sort of catalog of horrors or this singular obstacle or difficulty that, that you manage to persevere through. And I, obviously I've gone through some things like that.

Ryan Holiday (10:32)

I.

Dr. Scott Laker (10:33)

But I think most of what this philosophy applies to is like the everyday frustrations and difficulties and limitations of being a human being.

Ryan Holiday (10:45)

Right.

Dr. Scott Laker (10:45)

And so I think we can apply it just as easily. And certainly I try and don't always succeed to apply it to traffic and airline delays and, you know, things that I just bought that broke two seconds after I took it out of the box, or, you know, conversations with my children or conversations with employees, like you're just always waking up and dealing with constrained limitations, unexpected things. And to me, stoicism is like, well, that. Dealing with that.

Moderator / Interviewer (11:20)

This is such a good, hard question.

Dr. Scott Laker (11:22)

Great.

Moderator / Interviewer (11:23)

You're gonna love it. Would you think of Victor Frankl's approach of logotherapy as a form of stoicism?

Dr. Scott Laker (11:30)

So logotherapy comes from the stoic idea of the logos, which is the Latin word for the way or the word. So he is explicitly borrowing from the Stoics there. And, you know, one of the most inspiring people that ever lived, Viktor Frankl. He survives four different concentration camps. He loses not just his family, but his life's work. And as he comes out of it, he writes this book, Man's Search for Meaning, which is an incredibly moving book about how basically what we're talking about here, that, you know, suffering is unavoidable, part of meaning and purpose in life, is, in fact, how we deal with that suffering. There's a lovely other book I'll recommend for people who liked Man's Search for Meaning. They published a collection of essays and letters from Viktor Frankl during the pandemic.

Dr. Scott Laker (12:19)

And I think Daniel Goleman, who wrote Emotional Intelligence, did the forward. But the title of the book itself, I think, is illustrative. It's called yes to Life. And then the subtitle is In Spite of Everything, which to me is the essence of both Stoic philosophy and logotherapy.

Moderator / Interviewer (12:36)

I mean, I'm going to add something to this question. So the question initially starts is, do you have any thoughts as to why these principles are not more prevalent in today's society? I think the flip would be, why do you think they're gaining so much traction now?

Dr. Scott Laker (12:48)

You know, there's the Chinese saying, may you live in interesting times. It's probably not a great sign that stoicism. Stoicism is resurgent. If I could trade some of my book sales for a slightly less insane world, I'm happy to take that hit. Of course, stoicism did have this big resurgence in the pandemic because people were dealing with the kind of things that I think we thought maybe didn't happen anymore. But in fact, these things always happen. Like, people go, this is so unprecedented. It's very precedented. All of it economically, social, cultural, political. This has all happened before, unfortunately. I think we used to teach philosophy in the ancient world. We taught philosophy as a kind of operating system for life and leadership. We don't do that so much anymore. Obviously religion took a big part of that. And then there's been a decline of sort of religious adherence, at least in the west. And then it wasn't really replaced by anything. And I think part of what lit me up about stoicism at 19, as I was reading it in my college apartment, is I was like, this is exactly the kind of guidance and insight that I needed that I hadn't ever really heard from anyone.

Moderator / Interviewer (13:59)

I've recommended one of your books, Daily dad, to many of our residents.

Ryan Holiday (14:03)

How.

Moderator / Interviewer (14:03)

How would you recommend bringing Stoic philosophy into people either early in their career, like in here, or even early in their career, like my 11 year old.

Dr. Scott Laker (14:12)

Yeah, I have an 8 year old and a 6 year old. And they of course are not interested in stoicism at all because I'm interested in it. But I think we mostly learn these things through stories, right? And part of the reason I try to write in stories is that I want to see how the things are applied. So I think it starts with the stories that we tell, not just from the ancient world, but as we're teaching or guiding people. How do we take an example of something in our own life and explain how we applied these principles? Or conversely, one of the things I learned as a research assistant is like you don't just tell the story about how it worked, but you tell the story about what happened when you didn't do it or how it didn't work. The cautionary tales, I think are just. Is illustrative. But if you want to tell teach people these ideas, the main thing you can do is to model them and to be that example of the person who is rising to meet the challenges, who's, you know, humble despite their success, who's sort of radiating that calm and poise like the best thing we can do is model them. And that's good for them, but it's also pretty good for us.

Moderator / Interviewer (15:23)

There's no other easier way.

Dr. Scott Laker (15:25)

I wish, I wish, you know, you could just get into use ChatGPT or something and it would teach it to him. But I don't think it's. I don't think it's ever going to go that way.

Moderator / Interviewer (15:33)

Well, thank you very much. One of your other books, Daily Stoic Today. I'm not going to quote Epictetus. I'm not bold enough, but this is what you wrote to it. You have two essential tasks in life. To be a good person and to pursue an occupation you love. Everything else is a waste of energy and a squandering of your potential. That's from today's writing. So I thought it was very serendipitous. Ryan, thank you very much. On behalf of the entire academy, thank.

Dr. Scott Laker (15:56)

You guys very much for having me.

Dr. Scott Laker (16:02)

Hey, it's Ryan.

Ryan Holiday (16:03)

Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast.

Dr. Scott Laker (16:06)

I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in.

Ryan Holiday (16:14)

The couple years we've been doing it.

Dr. Scott Laker (16:16)

It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it. And this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say thank you.

Toyota Trucks Customer (16:32)

My family owns a 2023 Toyota 4Runner, and honestly, it's my favorite vehicle that I've ever owned around town. It's smooth and reliable, but where it really shines is on our trips into the backcountry. We've taken it on backpacking adventures to Colorado and New Mexico, loaded up with gear and never had to think twice about whether it could handle the terrain. That's what Toyota trucks are built for. Off road confidence, rugged durability, and the freedom to explore. Toyota has a long history with the outdoor community, and they're committed to helping more people get out there and experience what nature has to offer. From remote trails to scenic byways, Toyota Trucks empowers you to take the detour, roam freely, and discover places that still feel wild and untouched. And they're not just making great trucks. They're working to expand access to adventure so more people can connect with the outdoors and pass that passion on to the next generation. Discover your uncharted territory. Learn more@toyota.com trucks adventure detours that's toyota.com trucks adventure detours.

Toyota Trucks Advertiser (17:31)

You hear that? That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds, no alerts, no distractions, actions, and no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour and you could take a detour? Toyota Trucks.