The Daily Stoic Podcast: “What Did The Stoics Get WRONG?”

Guest: Nick Thompson (CEO of The Atlantic)
Date: November 1, 2025
Host: Ryan Holiday

Episode Overview

This episode features an engaging conversation between Ryan Holiday and Nick Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic, focusing on both Stoicism’s enduring wisdom and its historical blind spots. They discuss themes of adaptation in changing times, the value and erosion of expertise, journalism’s function today, institutional failures, and an in-depth critique of some classical Stoic choices—most notably, Marcus Aurelius’ infamous succession decision. The dialogue naturally weaves personal anecdotes with philosophical meditation, drawing connections between ancient practice and present-day dilemmas.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Burden of Expectations and Changing Competition

• Thompson remarks on his father having once been told by JFK he’d reach the White House, emphasizing how early success can be a curse, continually raising the bar for what counts as achievement.

  “Huge success at a young age is a blessing and a curse.” — Nick Thompson [08:06]

• Holiday and Thompson explore how competitive environments have evolved:
  • More inclusive but consequently much harder (e.g., Harvard’s global applicant pool)
  • The need for adaptability is even more pronounced due to AI and global shifts.
  • The analogy of football’s changing rules reflects this necessity:

  “At some point they invented the forward pass… But that’s not the football we’re playing anymore.” — Ryan Holiday [10:12]

2. Books, Intellectual Lineage, and Professional Wrestling Politics

• Holiday and Thompson admire biographies (e.g., William F. Buckley by Sam Tanenhaus) for how they reveal both intellectual roots and the performative aspects of public life.

  “It’s kind of a key to understanding not just a moment in time, but then this moment in time is a way to understand today’s moment in time.” — Nick Thompson [12:36]

• The concept of “professional wrestling” in politics is critiqued—where politicians attack publicly but foster private relationships, raising questions about authenticity.

3. The Value (and Erosion) of Civil, Cross-Ideological Relationships

• Thompson shares inspiration for his Cold War book, noting Kennan and Nitze’s ability to fundamentally disagree yet maintain friendship—rare in today’s hyper-partisan era.
• Both highlight the dangers of filter bubbles and geographic/political segregation.

  “You live inside an information bubble. You live inside a filter bubble. You live inside a social bubble… And that’s a shame.” — Nick Thompson [14:17]

4. Journalism, the Atlantic’s Mission, and the Signal Gate Crisis

• Thompson describes the Atlantic’s efforts to move outside traditional media bubbles, seeking diverse writers and organizing state-wide events.
• Discussion of the Signal Gate incident (a major news leak involving the Atlantic):
  • The Atlantic’s team “handled it perfectly” by adhering to journalistic ethics—verifying with the White House before publishing. Those denying the story publicly were undermined by prior confirmations.

  “Usually it works the other way around. Normally, you lie and then say it’s true. You don’t say it’s true and then lie afterwards.” — Nick Thompson [17:30]

  • Critique of public figures’ incompetence and lack of strategic thinking in crisis response:

  “This is not a guy I want going eyeball to eyeball with the Secretary of Defense from another country.” — Ryan Holiday [19:27]

5. Journalism’s Decreasing Power and New Forms of Fear

• Holiday observes that public embarrassment, once a major deterrent, has lost effectiveness—officials now fear social media attacks or even physical violence more than media exposés.

  “We are post a world where... a New York Times story or an Atlantic story helps you lose your job because you’re already unqualified for the job to begin with.” — Ryan Holiday [24:27]

6. Can Social Media Be Fixed? AI, Filter Bubbles, and Brain Poisoning

• Thompson proposes that fixing social media is America’s great project:
  • Envisions an online world structured to challenge beliefs, not reinforce them.

  “If you could fix the way the social media algorithms work, that would be it.” — Nick Thompson [29:54]

• The damage of Twitter and information diets is palpable, with Elon Musk as a stark example:

  “That’s one of the starkest examples of what an information diet can do to a person. I mean, he went from... the cutting edge of all these breakthroughs... to fantasy land.” — Ryan Holiday [28:53]

  • They discuss the broader consequences—how social media enables denial, bad leadership, and a lack of accountability even in matters of national security.

7. The Death of Expertise and Institutional Failure

• Thompson recounts the destruction of the U.S. Institute of Peace due to political showmanship and misunderstanding:

  “If what you care about is not expertise in government, but how to get a good tweet, well, then you blow it up. And so the whole institute where my dad spent a lot of his life is blown up with this utter nonsense.” — Nick Thompson [34:11]

• Holiday and Thompson note the failure of process and abundance of chaos—drawing a dangerous analogy to applying Musk’s “Twitter playbook” to government agencies (e.g., USAID, CDC).

8. Navigating Insane Systems: Rationalization vs. Integrity

• Many rationalize working within “crazy” systems, believing they’re essential to preventing greater harm—a point illustrated with characters like Seneca, Mark Milley, and Mike Pence.

  “If everyone convinces themselves of that [being the essential adult in the room], then nobody ever actually does [take a stand].” — Ryan Holiday [41:14]

9. The Stoics’ Great Failure: Marcus Aurelius and Succession

• Thompson and Holiday tackle a core myth: Why did Marcus Aurelius, the paragon of Stoic wisdom, leave the empire to his disastrous son Commodus?
  • Context: Marcus had several sons, most died, leaving only Commodus, who became a catastrophic ruler.
  • Possible reasons: trauma from losing multiple children, the pressure of tradition, lack of precedent for bypassing one's own offspring.

  “This is why hereditary kingships are bad.” — Nick Thompson [43:51] “As far as we’re told, he entrusts his son [Commodus] to the smartest advisors in all of Rome… And then [Commodus] promptly fires all of these people.” — Ryan Holiday [45:08]

10. The Limits of Stoic Philosophy: Agency and Reform

• Holiday critiques Stoic “resignation” to fate, citing George Washington’s inaction on slavery and Marcus Aurelius’ lack of reforms:

  “He seems to have this very circumscribed understanding of what his capacities are. That’s kind of a letdown considering how rare philosopher kings are.” — Ryan Holiday [51:20]

• Thompson extends the critique with the world of running: sometimes real progress comes from refusing to accept limitations (“anti-Stoic” breakthroughs).

11. Stoicism in Practice: Passivity, Agency, and Activism

• Holiday clarifies that Stoics were not all passive:
  • Many were radically active (“Stoic opposition,” the U.S. Founders), and the advice not to be “triggered” is advice for the engaged.
  • The focus must be on self-control and engagement, not just suffering in silence.

  “If you’re in the arena... you gotta be in control of your emotions because the stakes are very high.” — Ryan Holiday [56:17]

  • Stoicism’s orientation towards action vs. disengagement is context-dependent.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Huge success at a young age is a blessing and a curse.”
  — Nick Thompson [08:06]

• “At some point they invented the forward pass… But that’s not the football we’re playing anymore.”
  — Ryan Holiday [10:12]

• “Our country would work a lot better if people who disagreed with each other in politics were also having dinner with each other and able to sort of talk, understand, work through it.”
  — Nick Thompson [13:51]

• “If you could fix the way the social media algorithms work, that would be it.”
  — Nick Thompson [29:54]

• “This is not a guy I want going eyeball to eyeball with the Secretary of Defense from another country.”
  — Ryan Holiday [19:27]

• “If you’re in the arena... you gotta be in control of your emotions because the stakes are very high.”
  — Ryan Holiday [56:17]

• “This is why hereditary kingships are bad.”
  — Nick Thompson [43:51]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [08:06] — The problem with expectations and early success
• [13:01] — Civil disagreement during the Cold War; lessons for today
• [14:44] — Media filter bubbles and geographic segregation
• [15:24] — The Atlantic’s mission: diversity and state-by-state engagement
• [17:09] — The Signal Gate crisis and ethical journalism
• [18:45] — Strategic incompetence in public leadership
• [24:27] — The limits of public embarrassment as a deterrent
• [29:54] — Social media’s algorithmic rot and how to fix it
• [34:11] — The death of expertise and political misunderstanding
• [41:14] — Navigating “insane” systems: rationalization and integrity
• [43:31] — Marcus Aurelius, succession, and Stoic failure
• [51:20] — Stoic passivity, agency, and the problem of limited reform
• [54:08] — The paradox of Stoic passivity vs. necessary progress
• [56:17] — True Stoic engagement: self-control in the arena

Closing Reflections

Ryan and Nick end by discussing the nuanced lesson of Stoicism: its advice to focus on what we can control is powerful, but must be coupled with engaged, informed action—not resignation. The great Stoics of history wrestled with these same dilemmas, leaving contemporary listeners with both wisdom and warnings to consider.

This summary provides a full arc of the conversation and highlights central philosophical, historical, and journalistic insights. It’s designed for anyone who wants a comprehensive, episode-length briefing that is true to the hosts’ voices and the spirit of their discourse.