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What Did The Stoics Get WRONG? | Nick Thompson (CEO of The Atlantic) - The Daily Stoic | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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What Did The Stoics Get WRONG? | Nick Thompson (CEO of The Atlantic)

The Daily Stoic

Sat Nov 01 2025

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast: “What Did The Stoics Get WRONG?”

Guest: Nick Thompson (CEO of The Atlantic)
Date: November 1, 2025
Host: Ryan Holiday

Episode Overview

This episode features an engaging conversation between Ryan Holiday and Nick Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic, focusing on both Stoicism’s enduring wisdom and its historical blind spots. They discuss themes of adaptation in changing times, the value and erosion of expertise, journalism’s function today, institutional failures, and an in-depth critique of some classical Stoic choices—most notably, Marcus Aurelius’ infamous succession decision. The dialogue naturally weaves personal anecdotes with philosophical meditation, drawing connections between ancient practice and present-day dilemmas.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Burden of Expectations and Changing Competition

Thompson remarks on his father having once been told by JFK he’d reach the White House, emphasizing how early success can be a curse, continually raising the bar for what counts as achievement.

“Huge success at a young age is a blessing and a curse.” — Nick Thompson [08:06]
Holiday and Thompson explore how competitive environments have evolved:
- More inclusive but consequently much harder (e.g., Harvard’s global applicant pool)
- The need for adaptability is even more pronounced due to AI and global shifts.
- The analogy of football’s changing rules reflects this necessity:
“At some point they invented the forward pass… But that’s not the football we’re playing anymore.” — Ryan Holiday [10:12]

2. Books, Intellectual Lineage, and Professional Wrestling Politics

Holiday and Thompson admire biographies (e.g., William F. Buckley by Sam Tanenhaus) for how they reveal both intellectual roots and the performative aspects of public life.

“It’s kind of a key to understanding not just a moment in time, but then this moment in time is a way to understand today’s moment in time.” — Nick Thompson [12:36]
The concept of “professional wrestling” in politics is critiqued—where politicians attack publicly but foster private relationships, raising questions about authenticity.

3. The Value (and Erosion) of Civil, Cross-Ideological Relationships

Thompson shares inspiration for his Cold War book, noting Kennan and Nitze’s ability to fundamentally disagree yet maintain friendship—rare in today’s hyper-partisan era.
Both highlight the dangers of filter bubbles and geographic/political segregation.

“You live inside an information bubble. You live inside a filter bubble. You live inside a social bubble… And that’s a shame.” — Nick Thompson [14:17]

4. Journalism, the Atlantic’s Mission, and the Signal Gate Crisis

Thompson describes the Atlantic’s efforts to move outside traditional media bubbles, seeking diverse writers and organizing state-wide events.
Discussion of the Signal Gate incident (a major news leak involving the Atlantic):
- The Atlantic’s team “handled it perfectly” by adhering to journalistic ethics—verifying with the White House before publishing. Those denying the story publicly were undermined by prior confirmations.
“Usually it works the other way around. Normally, you lie and then say it’s true. You don’t say it’s true and then lie afterwards.” — Nick Thompson [17:30]
- Critique of public figures’ incompetence and lack of strategic thinking in crisis response:
“This is not a guy I want going eyeball to eyeball with the Secretary of Defense from another country.” — Ryan Holiday [19:27]

5. Journalism’s Decreasing Power and New Forms of Fear

Holiday observes that public embarrassment, once a major deterrent, has lost effectiveness—officials now fear social media attacks or even physical violence more than media exposés.

“We are post a world where... a New York Times story or an Atlantic story helps you lose your job because you’re already unqualified for the job to begin with.” — Ryan Holiday [24:27]

6. Can Social Media Be Fixed? AI, Filter Bubbles, and Brain Poisoning

Thompson proposes that fixing social media is America’s great project:
- Envisions an online world structured to challenge beliefs, not reinforce them.
“If you could fix the way the social media algorithms work, that would be it.” — Nick Thompson [29:54]
The damage of Twitter and information diets is palpable, with Elon Musk as a stark example:

“That’s one of the starkest examples of what an information diet can do to a person. I mean, he went from... the cutting edge of all these breakthroughs... to fantasy land.” — Ryan Holiday [28:53]
- They discuss the broader consequences—how social media enables denial, bad leadership, and a lack of accountability even in matters of national security.

7. The Death of Expertise and Institutional Failure

Thompson recounts the destruction of the U.S. Institute of Peace due to political showmanship and misunderstanding:

“If what you care about is not expertise in government, but how to get a good tweet, well, then you blow it up. And so the whole institute where my dad spent a lot of his life is blown up with this utter nonsense.” — Nick Thompson [34:11]
Holiday and Thompson note the failure of process and abundance of chaos—drawing a dangerous analogy to applying Musk’s “Twitter playbook” to government agencies (e.g., USAID, CDC).

8. Navigating Insane Systems: Rationalization vs. Integrity

Many rationalize working within “crazy” systems, believing they’re essential to preventing greater harm—a point illustrated with characters like Seneca, Mark Milley, and Mike Pence.

“If everyone convinces themselves of that [being the essential adult in the room], then nobody ever actually does [take a stand].” — Ryan Holiday [41:14]

9. The Stoics’ Great Failure: Marcus Aurelius and Succession

Thompson and Holiday tackle a core myth: Why did Marcus Aurelius, the paragon of Stoic wisdom, leave the empire to his disastrous son Commodus?
- Context: Marcus had several sons, most died, leaving only Commodus, who became a catastrophic ruler.
- Possible reasons: trauma from losing multiple children, the pressure of tradition, lack of precedent for bypassing one's own offspring.
“This is why hereditary kingships are bad.” — Nick Thompson [43:51] “As far as we’re told, he entrusts his son [Commodus] to the smartest advisors in all of Rome… And then [Commodus] promptly fires all of these people.” — Ryan Holiday [45:08]

10. The Limits of Stoic Philosophy: Agency and Reform

Holiday critiques Stoic “resignation” to fate, citing George Washington’s inaction on slavery and Marcus Aurelius’ lack of reforms:

“He seems to have this very circumscribed understanding of what his capacities are. That’s kind of a letdown considering how rare philosopher kings are.” — Ryan Holiday [51:20]
Thompson extends the critique with the world of running: sometimes real progress comes from refusing to accept limitations (“anti-Stoic” breakthroughs).

11. Stoicism in Practice: Passivity, Agency, and Activism

Holiday clarifies that Stoics were not all passive:
- Many were radically active (“Stoic opposition,” the U.S. Founders), and the advice not to be “triggered” is advice for the engaged.
- The focus must be on self-control and engagement, not just suffering in silence.
“If you’re in the arena... you gotta be in control of your emotions because the stakes are very high.” — Ryan Holiday [56:17]
- Stoicism’s orientation towards action vs. disengagement is context-dependent.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

“Huge success at a young age is a blessing and a curse.”
— Nick Thompson [08:06]
“At some point they invented the forward pass… But that’s not the football we’re playing anymore.”
— Ryan Holiday [10:12]
“Our country would work a lot better if people who disagreed with each other in politics were also having dinner with each other and able to sort of talk, understand, work through it.”
— Nick Thompson [13:51]
“If you could fix the way the social media algorithms work, that would be it.”
— Nick Thompson [29:54]
“This is not a guy I want going eyeball to eyeball with the Secretary of Defense from another country.”
— Ryan Holiday [19:27]
“If you’re in the arena... you gotta be in control of your emotions because the stakes are very high.”
— Ryan Holiday [56:17]
“This is why hereditary kingships are bad.”
— Nick Thompson [43:51]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[08:06] — The problem with expectations and early success
[13:01] — Civil disagreement during the Cold War; lessons for today
[14:44] — Media filter bubbles and geographic segregation
[15:24] — The Atlantic’s mission: diversity and state-by-state engagement
[17:09] — The Signal Gate crisis and ethical journalism
[18:45] — Strategic incompetence in public leadership
[24:27] — The limits of public embarrassment as a deterrent
[29:54] — Social media’s algorithmic rot and how to fix it
[34:11] — The death of expertise and political misunderstanding
[41:14] — Navigating “insane” systems: rationalization and integrity
[43:31] — Marcus Aurelius, succession, and Stoic failure
[51:20] — Stoic passivity, agency, and the problem of limited reform
[54:08] — The paradox of Stoic passivity vs. necessary progress
[56:17] — True Stoic engagement: self-control in the arena

Closing Reflections

Ryan and Nick end by discussing the nuanced lesson of Stoicism: its advice to focus on what we can control is powerful, but must be coupled with engaged, informed action—not resignation. The great Stoics of history wrestled with these same dilemmas, leaving contemporary listeners with both wisdom and warnings to consider.

This summary provides a full arc of the conversation and highlights central philosophical, historical, and journalistic insights. It’s designed for anyone who wants a comprehensive, episode-length briefing that is true to the hosts’ voices and the spirit of their discourse.

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Transcript

Ryan Holiday (0:00)

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Nick Thompson (1:20)

But.

Ryan Holiday (1:20)

You don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path. You choose it to find the places.

Nick Thompson (1:26)

In between.

Ryan Holiday (1:29)

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And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I was in Palm Springs a couple of months ago and I went for this little run and this is the reel that I recorded while I was running. It is 4pm in Palm Springs. It is 105 degrees outside. My wife says I have a mental illness, but I am training for this marathon. It's going to be hot in Greece. I'm going to do it early in the morning, but the idea is you do it when you don't want to do it. You push yourself when it's hard. You try to keep it within reason or bounds. Maybe this is beyond that, but it's the only slot I have. We just flew in from Texas a couple hours ago and then we have dinner and then I have a talk tomorrow. So I'm going to do this run. I've done it before. It's beautiful. It's going to be very hot and tough, but you challenge yourself and it all leads you to where you want to go. I just hope I don't get heat stroke and I hope I can make it back. So I've said this before. I don't know if my Running habit is always totally healthy. The fact that I can't not do it is maybe something the Stoics would be a little suspicious of. But you know, you gotta pick your poison sometimes. So I think better this than a more destructive habit. If you listen to part one of this episode, you heard me introduce Nick Thompson, our guest. Nick is the CEO of the Atlantic. He runs to and from his office every day. He's also an American record holder for men in the 45 plus category in the 50k race. So he doesn't mess around. Also a great writer and apparently we go way back. He tells a story at the beginning of part one where apparently I'd asked him about something for an article I was writing for the observer where I was an editor many years ago, almost 10 years ago now. I got this would've happened maybe even more now that I'm thinking about it. It goes way back. Anyways, it was kind of a just a delightful full circle interview. We ended up talking much more than I thought we were gonna talk, which I think is a good sign. You know, you never know when you're having guests on. Are they gonna be someone that you're gonna hit it off with or sometimes people aren't always well set up for the conversation style I do. We've actually taken a briefing guest go. Ryan doesn't always ask questions. Sometimes he just says stuff and then it's your turn. Cause not everyone can handle that. Maybe it's not the best style, but style and I either want to have a good conversation or I want to wrap it up as quickly as possible. And in this one I did not feel that way. We really got into it. And in part two we talk more about the discipline of running. Some of his thoughts on journalism. He's the CEO of one of the longest standing magazines in the country. And we talk about the signal gate crisis, which they were right in the middle of. Then we talk about some stoicism at the end, which was a nice surprise. As I said, nick is the CEO of a magazine that dates back to the 1850 that's published some stoics over the years, including Emerson and Thomas Wentworth Higginson. Previously he was at Wired and the New Yorker. That's where we connected for the little thing we talked about at the beginning of part one. And he's a great runner. He has a new book called the Running A Father, a Son and the Simplest of Sports. I thought it was beautiful. I thought it was haunting. There's a bunch of daily dad stuff in there. Too mostly what not to do as far as his father was concerned. But you can follow Nick on Instagram and on Twitter nxtompson and check out his new book, the Running A Father, a Son and the Simplest of Sports. Hey, it's Ryan. I'm doing a bunch of live dates, including one coming up soon. I'm going to be in Seattle, Washington, on December 3, San Diego, California, on February 5, and Phoenix, Arizona, on February 27. The talk I just did in Austin sold out, so this will almost certainly sell out, too. I would love to see you there. Go grab tickets@daily stoiclive.com.

Ryan Holiday (20:49)

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Ryan Holiday (23:10)

Has happened and this is a shift we haven't quite figured out what to do with because I just went through this thing where I was supposed to give a talk at the Naval Academy, and then they basically, they found out that I was going to mention that they'd been removing books from the library and they revoked my thing like minutes before I was supposed to go on. And so I thinking about the old paradigm, I was like, guys, the person delivering the message is obviously not the bad guy. And is it, you know, just someone who's having to think about his pension, right? And I go, I think you think you're going to avoid controversy by not doing this, but you understand it's going to be a lot more controversy. This is how it works. I was like, you've publicly announced this talk. Even if I don't say anything about it, journalists are going to know. Some student is going to say something, you're going to get way more attention. And then he goes, yeah, yeah, I understand. And then I realize, oh, they don't care about negative attention at all. We are post a world where, I mean, the fact that Pete Hegseth did that and didn't lose his job, tells you did the signal gate thing and didn't lose his job, you realize, oh, it would have to be almost unfathomably bad, the scandal that for us to reenter a world where a New York Times story or a Wall Street Journal story or an Atlantic story helps you lose your job because you're already unqualified for the job to begin with and it's embarrassing that you're even in the job. So like this normal world where a journalist reporting that you are unqualified is not serious enough. So what are they afraid of? Like in this case, these people, this is like a three star admiral or whatever that is ultimately making this decision. He or she is worried not about the New York Times piece that I'm gonna write about my invitation being revoked or the subsequent, you know, CNN story. They're worried about the President screaming at them, right? Or they're worried about someone coming after them for mortgage fraud or Elon Musk sending a tweet about them. Or they're literally worried about a crazy person showing up at their house, right? Because of the attention. And so I think that's the scary world we're entering where it's actually public embarrassment or losing face is no longer an effective deterrent because on the other side you have this stick of violence or.