D (9:36)

I took it off to travel because I'm scared I'm going to lose it, so. Which is dumb. I also have another second arrow. So it's an arrow. So that's my Buddhist one. I have my memento mori one and a Buddhist one.

C (9:45)

Well, tell me the story on both. Yeah. Memento mori. Remember, you will die. Why is that something you want to wear on your person?

D (9:51)

Because it's nice to remember that you're going to die, right? I mean. No, seriously. I mean, I think it, like, causes you to live better. And there's research showing this too, right? That fast forwarding to your death, this idea of death awareness, noticing that things might go away soon, you wind up, like, enjoying things more, whether it's like a local thing. Like, they do this with, like college seniors who are about to graduate and just notice, hey, you're going to graduate really soon. They spend their time differently when you remind them, really. But I think for bigger things, for life, too. This is like. I mean, this is what the stoics were on top of, like, before anybody did these social science studies about this stuff.

C (10:22)

But yeah, isn't it interesting how much social science studies confirm just hypotheses or arguments from ancient philosophy that they were just making up 2000 years ago or 2500 years.

D (10:33)

And even still, like, I have a colleague, Hedy Kober, who studies meditation and a lot of kind of, you know, ancient practice from the Buddhist. And I was like, you need to go do stoicism. So she's doing negative visualization studies now to try to see if that also can, like, she just studies, like, craving and these kinds of things. Can it reduce craving? Can. To feel better and so on. But I'm like, still new insights from them are coming in.

C (10:53)

So do you just kind of fiddle with the ring and Is just something you run through in your mind?

D (10:57)

Another reason I don't take it to podcasts is I thwack it. You know, I have to take it out. Yeah, you notice it every once in a while and then you. This is another one I got because this came from Arthur Brooks, who I know you had on your show.

C (11:07)

I think he was wearing a very similar.

D (11:09)

Yeah, so his work with the Dalai Lama, he hangs out with these monks who.

C (11:12)

Did you go on that trip?

D (11:14)

I did not. I had a wedding and I was like, can you move the wedding?

C (11:17)

No, no.

D (11:18)

But I met one of the monks who was there. And because of the work, they gave me this. And so it' you know, blessed by the Dalai Lama. And it's meant to remind you that you're on the path to being a Bodhisattva. And it is true that I'll be like, literally today driving over here, trying to get out of the main part of Austin City. And I looked at it, it was about to road rage. And I was like, no, I'm on a path to being a Bodhisattva. Control of this. And so, yeah, so the reminders help yeah.

C (11:40)

Yeah. I don't know if people agree. People find momentum more imorbid. People find it disconcerting, depressing. There's a reason that people don't do it. They don't want to think about it.

D (11:52)

Oh, it's disturbing. I mean, I think it's partly the disturbingness that makes it so powerful.

C (11:56)

Yes.

D (11:56)

Right. It, like, makes me a little want to, like, vomit in my mouth every time I think about it, but it also makes me want to put my phone away and notice the things around me and have a conversation with someone. So, yeah, I think it works because it's really discombobulating and you can get.

C (12:11)

Desensitized to it itself a little bit. And what I think is interesting, which has never been desensitized for me, is the one that Marcus really talks about in meditations, which he's craving from Epictetus. He says, as you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself, they will not make it till the morning. So there's something about memento mori for yourself. You just be like, yeah, of course I'm gonna die. I always knew this. Hopefully. But. But it's when. If you have to meditate on losing someone or something so precious to you, you never become desensitized to that. It is always a very powerful, sobering, humbling, and a little bit terrifying thought to run through your mind. And there's something about the human mind that doesn't want to consider it precisely because of all those things.

D (12:52)

Yes, yes, yes. But what's amazing about the human mind is that you can just instantly switch your reference point with a little bit of imagination. Right. And I think this was one of the stoic insights, like, if you actually have a bad thing happen to you, that changes your reference point. Like, I actually lose my phone, like, while on this trip. Oh, my God, this is such a pain in the butt. I gotta get. I never realized how much I appreciated my phone, but I get my new phone. It's like, ugh, a phone. It's so useful. I can look at the map and so on.

C (13:15)

Yes.

D (13:16)

But what's amazing is we don't actually have to go through the actual terrible thing. We can just simulate it very briefly. And this is. I think Marcus Aurelius is insight.

C (13:24)

Right.

D (13:24)

Like, every morning you should wake up and think, I might, you know, get shunned. I might lose my job. I might lose my. My legs won't work and stuff. And I think that that's amazing that we have the power to do that, that we don't actually have to face the real consequences, but we can psychologically reset our reference point. It's such a good hack.

C (13:40)

Well, what's interesting is we use our imagination in a way that's not helpful all the time. So we imagine a bunch of extremely unlikely, you know, fake things. We're ruminating on stuff that nobody's thinking about, and we're torturing ourselves with our imagination instead of using our imagination to prepare for things. Like, oftentimes if you act like, if you just kind of have this vague imagining of a terrible thing, you feel unpleasant. But if you can get specific with it and you go, what would I do? Here's what my plan actually, it has the exact opposite effect. So it's. You sort of decide how you're going to use your imagination.

D (14:16)

And this is a critique that I sometimes get from my students. I talk about these negative visualization psychology studies in my happiness class, and I'll always get a student who stays after class and is like, but wait, isn't rumination terrible? Isn't that, like, the worst symptom of, you know, depressive episodes? And I'm like, marcus Aurelius didn't say, like, do that 14 hours a day. He said, like, first 10 minutes right before the wordle. You know, like, do that quickly and then recognize that that's not true. Appreciate and move on. And I think that's where we get stuck. Right. Is that we have to know the dosage of some of these practices, and that can get a little tricky. Including memento mori. Right. A terrible health, anxious paranoia that you're going to die is not awesome.

C (14:53)

Right. Hypochondria is not supposed to be the result.

D (14:57)

Correct. I think the Stoics were good about giving us that sort of dosage, but in practice, that's where the. The rubber meets.

C (15:03)

Well, sofrosine is like, the right amount.

D (15:06)

Yes.

C (15:06)

Right. Like, no. The ability to discern is also. It's interesting that the line between, like, where is sort of temperance and where is wisdom? But they're the same. They're related. It's like, what is the golden mean of this exercise, this truth, this idea? Because when you hear Seneca, on the one hand, say, you know, we suffer more in imagination than in reality, and then he also says, he who suffers before it is necessary suffers more than is necessary. He says, like, the unexpected blow lands heaviest. And then he's also saying, like, don't torture yourself with every possible thing that could happen. People feel like, that's a contradiction. And I think oftentimes that is a critique of the Stoics that they contradict each other. What they're actually saying is, not too much over here and not too little over here. Get the right amount. Even on something like, hey, am I prepared for things to not go my way? Is very different than ruminating on how they're never going to go your way.

D (16:01)

Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, if you. This is. I love the Stoics, but I also like bringing in these other kinds of traditions, too.

E (16:06)

Right.

D (16:06)

Like, if you look to Aristotle, this was something that Aristotle was really worried about, the kind of right amount, like, virtue isn't one thing or the other. It's not kind of bravery or cowardice. It's this lovely sweet spot in the middle. And so, yeah, so I think that the right amount is something that we should be thinking about a lot.

C (16:21)

Well, that's the problem with the word temperance, is that temperance in America, not even in English, but the temperance movement became the abstinence movement.

D (16:32)

Smash your bottles.

C (16:33)

Exactly. I mean, none. Not. What is the right amount? What is a moderate, safe, reasonable amount? And that's a hard. And look, there's some things. Not at all. Some things you should definitely not do. There's probably not a moderate amount of heroin that you should be doing or fentanyl or something, but there are other things that, if you can do them in moderation, it's totally fine. And I think ruminating is probably one of those things, because there's a fine line between ruminating and being ignorant.

D (17:04)

Yeah. And I think one of the things I think the Stoics would say is that the main principle of finding agency over your own mind, finding agency over your own emotions, finding agency over your own actions, like, they almost want you to be probably in that hard sweet spot of sorting it out for yourself. Right. That's the kind of virtue that the Stoics want you to cultivate.

C (17:21)

Yeah. You want to be prepared for things to go wrong, but also not a cynical, miserable. You know, because I don't believe in manifestation, but I do believe, like, if you have a fundamentally negative worldview, the world will be negative to you. I don't think you're changing reality. But if you only look for the worst, you're gonna find a lot of bad stuff.

D (17:44)

Okay. But this is a spot where my students also get it confused, and I think it is really confusing psychologically. Right. Cause on the one hand, we know thinking about the worst helps you a little bit in all the ways we were just talking about. We also know that optimism helps you a little bit. But it also has these interesting downsides. Right. In the manifesting work. There's lots of work by folks like Gabriel Otengan that if you fantasize about a positive future a lot, you take less action towards that positive future.

C (18:08)

Yes.

D (18:09)

So she has these studies where, like, you know, you fantasize about getting fit and going to the gym all the time. You think, oh, my gosh, it's gonna be so great. I'm fit, my clothes, I'm gonna look great, whatever. But then the more you fantasize about it, the less you actually go to the gym. And this too comes from a weird feature of imagination, which is that if we've imagined a goal, we don't want that goal as much anymore. There's this lovely study by this guy, Kerry Morwedge, who has people either imagining putting quarters into a vending machine over and over again really slowly, or slowly eating M&Ms. One by one. And then at the end of the study, people come out and there's a big vat of M and Ms. Yeah. What does he find? He finds the people that imagine the quarters eat less M and Ms. Because they kind of feel like if you imagined eating all the M and Ms, you're kind of satisfied by them. You don't eat them anymore.

C (18:52)

Right, right.

D (18:53)

And this is what happens with certain kinds of positive fantasies. We imagine that we already went to the gym and got all the benefits. It's like, why don't I need to put action into that?

C (19:00)

Yeah. I think for me, the Memento Mori thing is it's not that you are going to die tomorrow, but that you could.

D (19:08)

Yes.

C (19:08)

And the couldness puts a level of uncertainty, and then it forces you to make some decisions. I think that's kind of how I think about it.

D (19:18)

That's right. And I think those decisions ultimately are ones that make us a lot happier. Right. The decisions are usually to be a little bit more present, to not fall for the, like, you know, low value, you know, dopamine hit in the current parlance, even though it's not really dopamine hit, but like. Like this kind of low value, quick, like I'm looking at my phone rather than hanging out with my kid right before he goes to bed. Right. And those changes, Those changes matter a lot for our moment to moment happiness. But I think those changes matter a lot for really appreciating the stuff we have in life, which, again, you know, as the stoics so lovingly pointed out, like, it's not guaranteed at any point.

C (19:50)

Yeah, the like, hey, should we extend the vacation one day? Or hey, should I blow off work and go spend an extra bit of time for this? Should I take this phone call? It's the, it could be the last time that you get that thing correct and so you should probably seize it while it's here. That is, I think, just a real practical way. Momentum helps you make better day to day decisions.

D (20:10)

It also changes our time horizon. Right. Like psychologists often worry about these cases of myopia, right. Where you're not saving enough, you're not eating healthy enough, you're not protecting your future self. I, from a happiness standpoint, worry a lot about the opposite, which is hyperopia, which is like we're constantly saying I'm doing something for my future self. Right. But we both get our future self wrong. And sometimes like the future isn't guaranteed. So you know, take the reward, take that fun thing now, you know, you know, how many times like do people not end up spending their frequent flyer miles and they expire or you know, buy this nice bottle of wine that you and your partner are going to have one day and then you finally find it and it's like corked or something. I feel like we're constantly in danger of corking our lives.

C (20:50)

Yes.

D (20:51)

Even in these local domains. I mean, I've heard you use the example of your, you know, kids going to bed and that, you know, stoic mantra helping you notice and be present. What would you be doing if you weren't being present? Well, you'd probably be checking an email for like future you is trying to.

C (21:03)

Get something not important at all.

D (21:04)

Exactly.

C (21:05)

Yes.

D (21:06)

And so fighting our hyper appia and making sure, you know, we're prioritizing things in the present so that we get the right future benefit, I think is important.

C (21:14)

I've never met someone who's not saving for retirement, not taking care of themselves because they have philosophically worked themselves into that position.

D (21:22)

Yes.

C (21:23)

They're not doing that because they're just not responsible.

D (21:25)

It's not a. Yeah, that's right, that's.

C (21:27)

I do think there's a trouble with some philosophy and some people, people like, they try to like overthink it. And for these edge cases that aren't real or would affect such a minority of the. It's like people don't want to work out because they don't want to be too fit. You're not going to get there, don't worry about it, you know, and it's like, you know, if everyone actually put in this Ancient philosophical practice, Social Security would go bankrupt. And it's like, no, okay, first off, it's automatically taken out of everyone's account. It's not a choice. That's why. But, like, no, the people that are not doing it are doing it for other irresponsible reasons, not for an extreme philosophical principle.

D (22:06)

Yeah. And I do feel like hyperopia is one of the, you know, people who are a little philosophically informed or thinking about how to live a good life. They're often the ones that are pretty good at, like, discounting. Right. Like, you know, withholding. But then if you do that too much, you know, again, none of us know what our moment is. And the Memento Mori is just a reminder of, like, could be tonight.

C (22:24)

Yes.

D (22:24)

What do I want to do different if it was?

C (22:26)

Well, how many of these people that are obsessed with sort of radical life extension have a life worth extending? Seneca talks about this story about this emperor, this criminal, sort of begging to be spared, like, don't put me to death. And he says, oh, you're really alive. That's what the Emperor says to him. He's like, you. You have wasted your life. You're a shitty person doing shitty things, and now you're begging to be spared. To do what? So you can go back to your life of crime. This is not a statement on the justice of the death penalty. The point is, when I look at the life that these people are trying to extend, I'm like, what? You're living like a monk, but not in a philosophical way.

D (23:03)

Yes. Getting random injections. And you can't hang out with people because when you hang out with people, you're gonna have drink or go out.

C (23:09)

And have some food.

D (23:10)

You're gonna eat.

C (23:11)

You don't go in the sun because you're worried about the sun. What you're doing is stripping all the reasons for existence out of existence to then prolong the existence. So maybe in the future you'll someday be happy. You could be happy now.

D (23:22)

And I think they're getting the evidence wrong. I think a lot of the evidence for that form of longevity comes from, like, I don't know, supplement research. Like what? But if you look psychologically at the kinds of things that extend longevity, it is happiness in the moment, your social connections. Right. The good that you're doing in the world, the sense of purpose and value. Right? These are the things that extend life when you're faced with terminal illnesses and so on. And so it's like, I think they're doing it for the wrong reasons they're going to get a long life. That's not very valuable. But I also think they're missing out if really what your goal was, longevity. You might actually just want a happy life in the moment because that would work.

C (23:53)

Have you ever talked to someone who's really old, like 90 to 100 or whatever? I've talked to many of them and first off, they don't talk about being old. They don't talk about wanting to live longer, and they're not even particularly pumped that they're still alive, to be perfectly honest. I don't mean like their life is depressing, but. But one of the striking things about someone you meet, anyone over 100, they are not clinging to life. Yes, they are not like, I hope I make it to 112. I need two more years to get this stuff done. What they actually are is day to day. And like, I knew this guy, Richard Overton in Austin. He was 112, and I asked him if he takes it day by day. And he said, at my age, you take it day by night. He's like, look, I just. If I live through the evening, if I wake up tomorrow, that's like defying the odds once again. In fact, it can sometimes be painful if you love these people. They're like, I'm ready to go. And you're like, don't say that.

D (24:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (24:45)

But because you're not ready for them to go. Yeah, but they have gotten to a place where life is no longer so precious to them. And that's probably part of it. But it's just interesting to me that when you talk to the people who. It's like, I guess this is also true for wealth. When you talk to the people who have it, they're like, it's not that great. I'd trade it for X, Y or Z. And then the people that are obsessed with life expectancy are often neglecting the present moment at the expense of some optimized future.

D (25:13)

Yes, yes. And ultimately, like, when you get there, you might be happier than you think, no matter what you. I think this is another stunning thing, is that as people, as people get older, but specifically as people get closer to death, they wind up being more positive rather than less. And one of the key studies that looked at this, I mean, just talking about a structural issue that we should talk about and fight about, but it looked at people on death row, right? Where for older individuals, probably they're getting closer to that last moment, but we don't know when it's Going to be. Unfortunately, with individuals on death row, we can measure it. And so researchers look at people's journals, their expressions and things as they get closer, and rather than getting more negative, they actually get substantially more positive.

C (25:52)

Because the anger, the frustration, the fear, it just dissipates because what's the point?

D (25:57)

You're working out, right? I think we don't actually know why it is, but it seems like psychologically what happens is you wind up kind of happier. And if you look at kind of death row notes, because often people will write note about their situation, whatever, like way more strongly, like 2 to 1 strongly positive words and other oriented words like kindness and their connection and the meaning they've gotten and so on. Like, it's not like Mimi turns down.

C (26:20)

The noise on the trivial shit. They're not like, this guy stole this thing from my bunk. You know, like just the things you holding on to when there's an eternity. There's a story Lincoln tells this guy in his town who hated this other guy, they hated each other. And he finds out he has some terminal illness. And so he reaches out, he says, I want to make amends. And so the guy comes in, he sees him, and. And they make amends. And as the former enemy is leaving, he says, hey, I just want you to know, if I survive this, the grudge is back. And there's something about the silliness of what we cling to that the ephemerality of life renders insignificant. And I imagine whether you're sitting on death row, you just found out you have cancer, or you're 95, you're just like, Thanks to Toyota trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastow County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on. Thought, this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove into Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation. It was getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us. Not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before. Especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country and by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids, who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course. Because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota Adventure Detour. And of course, this is stoicism too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory. Learn more@toyota.com Trucks Adventure detours.

B (28:48)

The world is full of tours.

D (28:52)

But.

B (28:53)

You don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path. You choose it to find the places in between the detours, where each adventure pulls you toward the next. And wrong turns turn out right. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks.

C (29:23)

All right, so in the fall of 2024, I actually don't remember when the episode came out, but I think this is, this feels like a 2025 thing. We had a grief expert on the podcast. His name is David Kessler. And it was incredibly moving, powerful conversation, especially, you know, my kids just burst into the room as I was recording. Well, David's personal experience with grief started very young. As a child, he witnessed a mass shooting while his mother was dying in the hospital. And then he lost his 21 year old son very suddenly, many years later. And so his job, what he does is he teaches physicians and nurses and counselors and police about end of life trauma and grief. He's a beautiful writer. He actually wrote two books with Dr. Elisabeth Kubler Ross, if you know about the stages of grieving. So he's an expert with a lot of hands on personal experience with that. And he has actually added a sixth stage of grief which he calls meaning. So here is my conversation with David Kessler. So people read Marx, Aurelius, Meditations, and sometimes the knock on Marcus Aurelius is that it's depressing. And lately just been saying, you're right. Do you know what Marcus Aurelius life was? He lost his father at a young age. He gets taken from his childhood home and he becomes the emperor and he buries six children. Five children live to adulthood, six die. So of 11 children, more than half of them die. He lives through a plague, he lives through a flood, he loses his wife. How does this guy get out of bed every morning? I mean, it's Depressing, because life can be depressing. But also when you realize that he did get out of bed every morning, that he did keep going, it's this testament, profound testament to the resilience and the perseverance of the human spirit. And so that's what human beings do, is that they move through grief and loss and keep going.

E (31:27)

And one of the things I put in this is that I put the hero's journey in there. And, you know, I want people to understand we all go through those horrible dark nights and how mapped out it is that, like, in the beginning of the journey, you're sure there's no end.

C (31:43)

With a refusal to the call. The refusal of the call.

E (31:46)

Right, right. Exactly. And you go into that, and there's, you know, the enemies and the hell. I mean, it's all. And one of the things I did because, I mean, so many people don't know the hero's journey is I literally go, all right, you've seen it in Star wars and the Hunger Games, Every.

C (32:03)

Great story I did.

E (32:04)

Like, here's the hero's journey. Here's Star wars hero's journey. Because you can go, oh, yeah, Luke's parents died and all that. And then you can go to. Let's map out yours.

C (32:16)

Right.

E (32:17)

And here's the hero's journey. At the end of it, my son is still dead, and I'm forever changed.

C (32:28)

Yeah.

E (32:29)

I'm still me. And each of us is the hero of our own life, of what we've gone through. And you just don't often get that until your dark night. And everyone else has been going through theirs, too.

C (32:47)

Yeah. There is something, though, about being a parent that I think makes you uniquely vulnerable. Joan Didion, you know, this is her table.

E (32:55)

Is it?

C (32:56)

And these are her chairs. Wow. Like, she sat at this table with the fan. There's a New York Times picture of that family, the one that was in the course of 18 months, taken from her sitting at this table in these chairs. And she said something about how being a parent is like being a hostage to fortune. You just, like, life has something on you now. And I think that's what keeps you up at night as a parent is like, that something could happen and you don't have control of it.

E (33:25)

I remember when I became a parent, someone, like, I had this nightmare. I forgot what it was. And someone said to me, oh, you only have two nightmares as a parent. You die or they die. And I'm like, really? And it's like, well, that does become it. And. And listen, I love you know, Joan Didion, I love when I often have people watch the documentary on her, and it begins with, like, you know, she's a robust, elderly, giggling lady that you're like, oh, what a fabulous life she's had. And this person. That person. And then you hear about it and you go, wait a minute, she's been through that.

C (34:01)

Wait, how standing? How does it not break? This frail, tiny.

F (34:06)

And.

C (34:07)

Yeah, it's unreal.

E (34:08)

It's interesting, the history in things. I wrote part of the original book on Truman Capote's table, and I'm like, is anything coming through? But I'm like, I don't want it to be gossipy or tacky. And it turns out it was just a table.

C (34:27)

How did you find his table?

E (34:28)

I have a friend who was great friends with Joanne Carson, who was a good friend of his and had his desk.

C (34:36)

So, yeah, there's an energy to things.

E (34:38)

I think there's an energy. And yet there's also the stories.

C (34:41)

Yeah.

E (34:42)

Like, what's going to happen if I write at this table?

C (34:46)

Yeah. Nothing. It's just a table.

E (34:48)

Table. It's a table.

C (34:50)

Yeah. Her story is so. It's sobering. You know, she. She opens. She has this book, Blue Nights, and she opens. She's, like, at her daughter's wedding, and she and her husband are walking out, and she says, you know, neither of us, no one could have understood, watching this scene from the street, that within 18 months, everyone but the mother of the bride would be dead. And just how life can come at you very, very, very fast. It doesn't matter how successful you are, talented you are, how protected you are. That's to me what that Longfellow, he says, you know, it doesn't matter how well protected you're. Your fireside is. There's an empty chair at everyone's living room. None of us are exempt from it.

E (35:39)

And we so get that when we're in it. To me, one of the practices. Can I get it when I'm not in it? When I'm in the grocery store and that person is struggling to find the change in their wallet or purse? And you're like, you knew we were at the checkout here. How did this surprise you?

C (36:01)

Yeah. This is not difficult.

E (36:02)

And yet. Oh, my gosh, did their spouse die a week ago? Are they, like, dealing with a new diagnosis? I mean, you really have no clue what anyone around us is going through in their struggles.

C (36:18)

Yeah.

E (36:19)

And to have that new awareness suddenly goes, can I give you a quarter? You know?

C (36:25)

Right. Or just leave them Alone, be patient.

E (36:28)

And, like, send them love and wish them well.

C (36:31)

Right.

E (36:32)

You know?

C (36:33)

Yeah. There's a practice in meditations that I try to do. Marcus really says he gets it from Epictetus, but he says, as you tuck your child in at night, say to yourself, they will not make it through till the morning. And I think he's doing what you're saying, which is not. He's not trying to say, like, detach from this person. I think he's saying, why are you rushing through bedtime? You know what I mean? Like, when my kid wants to get.

E (36:57)

Out, the hard thing to do, that's the hard thing to do it. I mean, I say it a little differently that for me, you know, because there's that thing about your life must be so depressing. And I think about. All right, let me just go there. What if it turns out today's my last day?

C (37:13)

Yeah.

E (37:14)

I don't know it. There's a car accident later. There's a plane crash. I don't know it. It's my last day. So if I take this in and go, wait, what if it's my last day? I only have two choices. I need to excuse myself right now because I have to go apologize to a lot of people. I gotta go make some amends. Or if I've been living currently, what. So if this is my last day. Wait a minute. This is my last podcast. Well, if this is my last podcast, I mean, let's make this really good. I mean, I want to take in today. I want to, like, grab a little more from today than I normally would. And so what if I really try to make this day count even more? And then I don't die tonight. Great. I have a whole nother day, and tomorrow it's going to be another great day.

C (38:06)

Well, that's what I think about. So it's. It's. You know, your child's not going to make it through till morning. And then when you're laying there, and then they're like, I need water. And you're like, you don't need water. You're just making this up because you're trying to extend bedtime. You're like, oh, yeah, I want to extend bedtime also. What do I care? Why am I trying to. What am I going to do? What am I going to do that's better than this? What am I going to do?

E (38:30)

Your child is like, these are precious moments. Let me, like, take it in.

C (38:35)

Yeah.

E (38:35)

And we're like, there's a destination. Sleep.

C (38:39)

Yeah, I'm Like, I have an email to respond to or whatever. What am I going to do? I'm going to go watch Wheels, you know, what I'm trying to do. Do after. This is laughably unimportant compared to this, but you can fool yourself for that if you allow your mind to do what we naturally. What's a much more comfortable thought, which is, you have thousands more of this, so this one's not that important. But you don't know that.

E (39:06)

And you don't know that. Yeah, and you don't know that. And if you let that in, it actually doesn't depress you. It makes you live more. Yeah, it makes you. I mean, one of the things that was a crazy thing that I experienced, and I think sort of says it all, is I would do before the pandemic, you know, 30 cities and all that, and be in, like, hotel meeting room after one. And I would be in a hotel meeting room, and there'd be a few hundred people. And next door is the realtors, and down the hall, the nurses. Around the corner is the, you know, Rotary Club. And the staff would say on more than one occasion, at the end of the day, what were you teaching?

C (39:49)

Yeah.

E (39:49)

And I'll go, why do you ask? And they go, because your group was laughing the most. And they'd be like. I'd say, grief. What kind of grief? And I would go, that kind of grief. And what I think it's hard for the outsider to know is the people in that room who had been through all kinds of tragedies or helped people with tragedies, absolutely had a longer, wider bandwidth for sorrow, but they also had a longer, wider bandwidth for laughter, for joy.

C (40:25)

You have to be able to laugh. The ancient world, there were sort of two models. There was Democritus and Heraclitus. And the idea was Democritus cried over the absurdity and the tragedy of existence, and Heraclitus laughed at it. And which one are you going to be? Seneca. Some of Seneca's last words. So he gets the emperor, he runs afoul of Nero, and Nero sends this hit squad to kill him. And his friends are there, and his wife is there, and they're all crying. You know, he's going to die, and he chokes. Why are you crying over this? He says, when the whole of life requires tears, he's like, why is this so sad? Life is sad. But he's making fun of the absurdity of it. And there is something, I think, about humor and laughter that only people who have Experienced profound sadness and darkness. Truly understand.

E (41:15)

So many times people go, wow, you really have a gift for death and grief. And I go, I really have a gift for humor. Because the truth is, I don't think you could learn that much if I'm like, oh, let's keep you in the pain. I mean, humor so important. And I'm not ever laughing at anyone's grief or their sorrows. But isn't life ridiculous? I mean, it becomes really funny, the absurd things that happen.

C (41:45)

Yeah. Lincoln had this profound sadness and then also this sort of body, sense of humor. And I think you need the two to balance each other out. How do you think losing a child, what do you think that brings you to say to a parent? Like, how would that inform one's time with their children?

E (42:07)

It's hard because I don't want to take away anyone's human experience. And I'm so glad I got to have and still have with my older son all those human experiences. And I think about it like on one hand, I've done a lot of work with cancer organization near me. And I remember, you know, one woman saying after she got into remission, when she was about to die, she said, you know, I get up every morning and I just take in the sunrise. I went, that's amazing. I mean, I'm just ignoring it every single day. And then I remember seeing her like a year later, like, how you doing? And she's like, I'm doing great, my health's great. And I said, how are the sunrises? She goes, ah, you've seen one, you've seen them all. And I mean, I think we try to operate from the profoundness of all this, but we're just having this human experience.

C (43:04)

There's still a day to day ness.

E (43:05)

Also, there's a day to day ness. And you know, there's times someone will go, you know, my child didn't get into the college, da, da, da. And I'm like, hearing him, I'm like, that's not a problem. Yeah, that's not a. I mean, but. And sometimes I say it and sometimes I realize, well, that is their biggest problem.

C (43:23)

Yeah.

E (43:23)

You know, and maybe they're open to a different perspective and maybe they're not.

C (43:27)

Well, it's like we all know what we're supposed to eat, and then we get hungry or tired and then we eat something different. So, yeah, you're right. You have these profound insights and then you're still a human being who, you know, is prey to all the things that human beings do.

E (43:40)

And I remember in that same cancer organization someone shared with me, we were talking about what if you found out like, you know, it was your last week, your last day. And one person said, I put another load of laundry in. And I love the human of that, that like, okay, I guess I'm just going to do the next thing that's in front of me, even if this turns out to be my last day.

C (44:01)

Do you know who Montaigne is? The French essayist. He says, I hope death finds me planting cabbages.

E (44:07)

Wow.

C (44:08)

Just he, he understood what Cicero said, that to philosophize is to learn how to die. But the idea was that you get this awareness, you get this understanding, you have these insights and then you just go about your regular life. He's like, I don't, you know, not dreading it, but also not like sort of overwrought and over prepared for it. You learn all this stuff and then in a sense, if you understand, you could lose your kids at any moment. There's some unhealthy version where you just cling them so tight to you because you're afraid of always losing them that you end up losing them. It's this idea of understanding it and then taking them to soccer practice and sending them off to school and just living a regular life with them.

E (44:48)

Well, and I think a huge lesson is for me, fear doesn't stop death, fear stops life. So you get in too much fear and it's everything, it's. I mean you could lose your kids, you could lose your spouse. I mean we could. That's like true to your job. I mean everything. And so do we tighten up? Do we go into fear? Do we shut down or do we go, oh my goodness, that's right. I was going to lose everything anyway. I guess I'm just going to like relax into this while it's here and enjoy it.

C (45:21)

Yeah, there's a balance to that, I think.

E (45:24)

And to go between, you know, that humanness and the reality of loss, that it's always around us. I always say death is like no further than six inches. I mean something's around us that just could electrocute. I mean something could happen in any given moment and okay, I'm just gonna, well live and just like I don't want this long, long wind down of my life. I mean, I'd like to be caught in the act. I'm just like in life planting a cabbage and boom. Who knew? Like, would he have planted a cabbage? Yeah, probably would have. I wouldn't done the. Another load of laundry.

C (46:02)

Yeah. That's beautiful. You want to check out some books?

E (46:05)

Sure.

C (46:06)

All right. And then I got something for you. Not that you need any more reminders, but we do these for daily stoke. I thought you might like that.

E (46:12)

Wow.

C (46:13)

It's a challenge coin, but it's. So the hourglass is time, the skull is death, and then the flower is life. That's the idea of memento mori, which the Stoics said we should be saying to ourselves constantly. And Seneca's point, too, which I think is beautiful. He says, don't think of death as this thing that happens in the future, but as something that's happening right now. So not even in what you were saying that it could happen right now, but that it is, because instead of seeing death as a singular, final thing, we want to see the time that passes as being dead. And so, in fact, you're dying all the time.

E (46:51)

Every day? Yes, every day. And, you know, we have this moment. Oh, nope, it's gone. It's gone.

C (46:58)

It's dead.

E (46:59)

There's a new one. And can we take that in? And it's so true. Every day is going to die.

C (47:06)

Yeah.

E (47:06)

I mean, I'm never going to be this age again. I mean, sometimes I'll literally, when I'm trying, you know, there's so much in meditation, I come to the present moment. I mean, sometimes I'll do like a time travel pretending, like, what if I was, like, in the future and I came back to this day?

C (47:26)

Sure.

E (47:27)

I'd be like, wow, take in the room a little more and wow, like, you're sitting with Ryan. And like, you know, in the books on the wall, I'd be like, wasn't this day amazing? You know, how many of us go, if I could go back and look at that day again. Well, take another look at this day here. This is an amazing day. And maybe not. It could be the day that sucks in your life. And can you also look at that as part of this experience and also.

C (47:56)

To realize, yeah, there's nothing that keeps a parent up more than the idea of losing their children. But, like, I've already lost my babies, I lost my toddler. You know, they're gone. I'll never get that one again because now they're older.

E (48:10)

Grief is empty nest. When they go to college, you're going to lose them again. I mean, and, you know, our spouses and our girlfriends and everyone else, and it's okay, and it's all going to happen someday, but we have this, and we have now in this moment. And that's what's amazing about it.

C (48:39)

Deciding what workout to do or how much weight to use, these are all roadblocks, ways that we sort of get in our own way. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Tonal will pick the perfect weight, track your progress, and suggest what to do next based on your muscle readiness. Taking the guesswork out of getting a great workout, Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home. With one sleep system designed to reduce your mental load, Tonal is the ultimate strength training system, helping you focus less on workout planning and more on getting great results. You don't have to second guess your form because Tonal is giving you real time coaching cues to dial in your form and help you lift safely and effectively. After a quick assessment, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and adjusts in 1 pound increments as you get stronger. So you're always challenged. And right now, Tonal is offering our listeners 200 bucks off your first Tonal purchase with the promo code TDS. That's Tonal.com and use promo code TDS for $200 off your purchase Tonal.com, promo code TDS for $200 off lots of horrible stuff happening in the world. It can be depressing, it can be disillusioning, it can make you despair. But to me, what Stoicism is is knowing what's happening, looking at it unflinchingly, and then deciding what you're going to do about it. What's happening isn't in your control, what you do. And that's why I donate every year to GiveWell. Over 150,000 donors have already trusted GiveWell to direct more than two and a half billion dollars to some of the world's poorest countries and poorest communities. And research suggests that these donations will save over 300,000 lives. And you can find all their research and recommendations on their site for free. And thanks to the donors that sponsor this research, GiveWell doesn't take a cut from your tax deductible donation to their recommended funds. To make a tax deductible donation Today, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and then enter the Daily Stoic at checkout. Make sure that they know that you heard about GiveWell from the Daily Stoic. That's givewell.org to donate or find out more. For the last episode we're going to go a very different direction. We're going to go in the heavy metal direction I'm friends with Randy Blythe, the lead singer of the metal band Lamb of God. Also has two amazing books. I actually just saw him on book tour here in Austin and he gave like a riveting, like two hour conversation about, you know, his experiences, which, by the way, include being wrongly jailed in a Czech prison. So fascinating life, fascinating guy. I think you're going to really like this. And as I said, he has two wonderful books just beyond the Light and Dark Days. And so we talked quite a bit about Memento Mori because they have a famous song about that, which is, if my son hadn't stolen my phone, I would be telling you how many streams it has on Spotify because I think it's one of their most streamed and it's a very great song. Anyways, you can check out the show notes for full episode links if you want to listen to the whole conversation with those people. If you want a Memento Mori reminder, I have one sitting here on my desk. The Memento Mori coin we make for Daily Stoic. And you can grab one yourself at store. Daily stoic.com we were talking about, you know, it's not as bad as being in a Czech prison, but I think that the exercise of Memento Mori puts all that stuff in perspective too. Right. You're like, hey, this is my only day. How am I going to spend it?

F (52:05)

This is it.

C (52:06)

Yeah.

F (52:06)

No, remember, you too shall die.

C (52:10)

Yeah. You gave me this thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen those? I like to look at cemeteries. I like the cemetery where it shows what the person looks like instead of being, you know them as an angel or whatever. It shows like a skeleton. The expression is what you are. I once was what I am. Now you will be. Yeah.

F (52:34)

Yes, yes.

C (52:34)

Yeah. And so they're called skeleton tombs or something. I forget there's a Latin expression. But the idea is like instead of the grave representing this. This peaceful, serene, gentle thing. Yes. They want to show the. The sort of the decomposition and the tragedy and the decay of it because that's in you also, and you are on your way to becoming that very thing.

F (52:59)

Yeah, yeah, Most certainly. It's like Alexander the Great and his mule driver.

C (53:06)

It's one of my favorite lines in meditation. Yeah, yeah. Both died in. Both buried in the same ground. They're both fucking worm food is what he's saying.

F (53:14)

Yeah, 100%. Have you been to the catacombs in Paris?

C (53:18)

Not in Paris, but I've been to a bunch of different catacombs.

F (53:21)

We went last time and got A lot. A lot of photos. And they had lots of great sayings up there on the walls in different parts.

C (53:29)

There was a church in Dublin that has a crypt underneath it. And you walk in and they have. It's because of the temperature and the depth. It perfectly preserved. These bodies that were buried in there. And they took. You know, they slid the stone off the coffin and you can see they're basically these natural mummies. And I was telling my kids this because they didn't believe it's true, but that you used to be able to go in. I went 12 years ago. And they let you touch the mummy.

E (53:58)

Whoa.

C (53:59)

Like its hand is there and you can rub its finger.

E (54:02)

Wow.

C (54:02)

And so you're touching what you will one day be. Wow. And the jolting feeling that you get there and you're like, this person died in the fucking Crusades. Wow. Is not just this guy died in the Crusades, but this guy was so abnormally tall that to fit him in this casket, they broke his legs to fold it under him. Right. One size.

F (54:27)

One size casket.

C (54:29)

You're done, man. You don't need to be comfortable in here, right?

F (54:33)

Yeah, absolutely.

C (54:33)

It reminds. There's another quote came from a Roman poet similar to that line from Marcus Aurelius. He says, in life, the world could not contain Alexander's ambition, but in death, a coffin was sufficient. Oh, yeah. And so you could want to be the biggest musician in the world, the biggest whatever in the world. You could be fucking physically imposing and intimidating. And then your ashes are like a fucking coffee cup. Yeah, that's.

F (55:03)

I write about that in the first. The first chapter two. Kind of like how in considering our own deaths, you know, for some people, I believe this may be a rude shock to you, but you are no better than the piece of roadkill who you pass by. You know, you're no. In death, you're no better than the person you made fun of in high school. You know, all this other stuff. You. We're all going to be equally dead. Conversely, if you're suffering from an inferiority complex, you know, take comfort in the fact that you will succeed effortlessly at being as perfectly dead as the greatest men and women of history.

C (55:45)

You know, or the nice way to put. The more inspirational way to put that is you are as equally alive as the greatest. Oh, yes. People on the planet. Yeah. You know, you have. You have as much life in you as the most powerful, richest person in the world. Pleasure feels the same. The air tastes the same. It is what it is. This is all there is yeah.

F (56:09)

This is it, you know, enjoy it while it's here, I think.

D (56:14)

Yeah.

F (56:15)

No, no one is not breathes any better than anyone else.

C (56:21)

Unless you have asthma, I guess, maybe.

F (56:23)

Well, we're talking permanent not breathing.

C (56:26)

No, no. Right. It's the great equalizer. In the end, it's the one prophecy that never fails. Yeah. And once it happens, it's done.

F (56:36)

Yeah.

C (56:36)

Yeah.

F (56:37)

And it's going to happen to everyone.

C (56:39)

Yeah.

F (56:39)

Do you see that documentary on Netflix.

C (56:41)

About the dude who's trying to run? Yeah. Yeah.

F (56:43)

Like it's, it's interesting some of it, like theoretically what they're trying to do.

C (56:50)

But you know what I think when I think about guys like that, guys that think they want to live forever, they spend all this money on this longevity shit. One of the emperors, one of the Roman emperors is walking by, they're executing some heinous criminal who's wasted his life being awful and the criminal sees him and he says, you know, please spare me or whatever. And the empress says, I didn't know you were even alive. Like he's saying, so you're really alive, are you? That's what he says. Like the point is your existence, the thing you're begging to be given a second chance at is not that great. I think about there's something fundamentally funny to me about those. That guy's life doesn't seem that amazing. He's not making an argument why his life is so great that he should live forever or he should get another 50 years because he's going to put it to such great use. What he's saying is I'm going to make my health really good. That's his argument. His argument is my health should entitle me to more years. Not the quality of my life is worth preserving. There's never this much. And look, life is life. And I feel like everyone should is entitled. I think healthcare should be a human right. I think anytime we can improve the longevity of the population as a whole, that is a wonderful blow to strike for justice. So that's not what I mean. But I think it's funny that the people that are most obsessed with living the longest strike me as pretty miserable people and pretty self absorbed people that I'm not so intrigued by what they're going to do with this extra time because I know the answer is basically just more self indulgent nonsense.

F (58:44)

Well, if you, I mean even, you know, I'm. I love vampires.

C (58:47)

Yeah.

F (58:48)

Huge vampire fan and will take my hand at writing a vampire novel one day.

C (58:53)

Go for it.

F (58:54)

But the depictions of vampires, their immortality is a curse. It's never good.

D (59:01)

Yeah.

C (59:01)

No, it's a curse. Yeah.

F (59:02)

Never good.

C (59:03)

It's a curse. Yeah.

F (59:05)

And I. God, I can't imagine. I would not want to live another hundred years. No way.

C (59:10)

Yeah.

F (59:11)

No way.

C (59:12)

Yeah. It's like he sucks his blood from his son or whatever, the guy in the documentary, and it's like, I think it's supposed to go the other direction. Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, he's not like, I've decided to put all this time and energy into helping my son live forever because I just love him so much. I'd be devastated if anything happened to him. He's like, how can I suck the youthful energy out of my boy? Being a parent is supposed to make you shift your priorities in precisely the opposite direction, bud.

F (59:44)

Yeah, he donated some to his father, some of his plasma. But then it's kind of like you're taking your son's life. That's what. Hopefully the presupposition that your son will one day have kids. Is he supposed to just. Just continually drain them? You know, you're breeding youth fountains or whatever.

C (60:03)

Yeah. There's a Zen saying, grandfather dies, father dies, son dies. This is a happy story because that's how it's supposed to go.

F (60:12)

Yeah, yeah.

C (60:13)

And yeah, look, this starts to get pretty metaphysical pretty quickly, but I think the whole point is that there's no point if we don't die. It's supposed to be. That's what creates the urgency and the clarity and the. An infinite game means you get an infinite number of tries.

F (60:32)

Right?

C (60:33)

And that's not what life is. Life is a finite game.

F (60:36)

Yeah, 100%.

C (60:43)

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on it tunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

E (61:12)

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