You’ve Got to Demand Everything of Yourself | Paralympian Ezra Frech

Summary

The Daily Stoic Podcast

Episode: "You’ve Got to Demand Everything of Yourself"

Guest: Paralympian Ezra Frech
Host: Ryan Holiday
Date: December 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features Ezra Frech, a powerhouse Paralympian, disability advocate, and the youngest guest ever on The Daily Stoic podcast. Host Ryan Holiday explores Ezra’s journey from childhood amputee to double gold medalist at the Paralympics, the intense pressures and paradoxes of elite sports, and how stoicism and a deep sense of purpose shape Ezra’s competitive drive and advocacy. The conversation delves into overcoming setbacks, the realities of the Paralympic world, family, purpose, and using adversity as a stepping stone for greatness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ezra’s Background, Childhood, and Purpose

[05:22-06:37]

• At three, Ezra’s leg was amputated, and his big toe transplanted to his hand, giving him two fingers and a prosthetic stump.
• From an early age, Ezra played multiple sports and broke national records, voicing his dreams of becoming a Paralympian and motivating others.
• “I probably want to go to the Paralympics someday. Hopefully the Olympics.” (Young Ezra, 06:19)
• Ezra’s drive stems from both ambition and the desire to normalize disability, using sport to make a broader impact.

2. Athlete Life: The Reality of Paralympic Sports

[10:46-13:22]

• Unlike Olympians or pro athletes, most Paralympians cannot make a living through their sport alone.
• Athlete life for Ezra demands juggling intense training, content creation, sponsorships, and public appearances.
• “You have to sacrifice everything in my life. But then I also have to figure out ways to monetize because the sport isn't paying me.” (Ezra Frech, 12:52)
• Pressure to perform and build a brand is higher for Paralympians, who often become faces of disability broadly.

3. Going Pro and Its Trade-offs

[13:42-17:05]

• Ezra transitioned from college athletics to a professional career, allowing him to optimize his routine around competition, recovery, and mental preparation.
• The move brought flexibility but also increased demands—balancing schedules, dealing with injury, and new professional pressures.

4. Managing Performance, Setbacks, and the “Silver Medal Paradox”

[17:26-25:19]

• Ezra discusses a tough World Championships in India, where he earned silver instead of gold in his signature high jump event, and finished 5th in the 100m—setbacks compared to his past victories.
• The “silver medal paradox”: Silver can feel more disappointing than bronze because of proximity to gold.
  • “I look back on this World Championships quite fondly... I totally lost. And it was really, you know, lots of tears the last couple of weeks.” (Ezra, 18:11)
  • “Getting silver is worse than getting bronze... when you get silver, you're so close to gold...” (Ezra, 18:28)
• Ezra’s approach: Let setbacks fuel future training, using them as daily motivation (e.g., his phone lock screen as a constant reminder after Tokyo loss; 22:01).

5. Motivation, Obsession, and Purpose

[23:15-25:52]

• Ezra is open about the tension between healthy motivation and obsessiveness, constantly pushing himself to the emotional edge.
• “I'm an obsessive at heart... I think about this all day 24/7...” (Ezra, 22:25)
• However, his deeper drive is rooted in a sense of mission: to change perceptions and opportunities for people with disabilities worldwide.
  • “The biggest motivator for me is purpose. I genuinely feel in my heart of hearts, I was put on this earth to normalize disability...” (Ezra, 23:15)
• Ezra discusses harrowing societal realities for disabled people, using stories to underscore why his work and visibility matter globally.

6. Balancing Short-term Results & Long-term Goals

[25:52-36:59]

• Ezra and Ryan discuss how daily training metrics (podiums, race times) can eclipse purpose-driven goals, a tension familiar across careers.
• Achieving greatness in sport is a means to further Ezra's actual mission: societal change, not just medals.
  • “I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate the movement and I have to win in order to do that...” (Ezra, 36:43)
• Ryan: “We have this larger purpose and that’s how we’ll evaluate our life as a whole. But then day to day, we’re like... does this get me more fame?... Then we wonder why we don’t end up doing the bigger, larger goal.” (35:18)
• The drive to transcend the movement—Ezra aims to be a “Michael Phelps” or “Caitlin Clark” for the Paralympics.

7. Family, Upbringing, and Self-Concept

[37:12-44:41]

• Family is central: Ezra’s parents built his confidence, never treating him differently, encouraging sports, and helping him develop strategies for self-acceptance.
  • “My parents are the reason I am confident, secure.... The values and lessons that my parents instilled in me as a young kid completely helped shape the confidence...” (Ezra, 37:12)
• The difficult medical decisions made at Ezra’s birth—surgery, amputation—were carried by his parents, who later became advocates and formed the non-profit Angel City Sports.
• Stoicism helped: Ezra’s dad sent him Daily Stoic newsletters and motivational quotes throughout his childhood.

8. The Burden of Representation & Embracing the Challenge

[55:17-59:13]

• Ezra welcomes the opportunity to represent disabled people, Team USA, and his heritage, finding pride rather than burden in his role.
  • “The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. I am so grateful to have that opportunity...” (Ezra, 55:55)
• He acknowledges that people often view his discipline and sacrifices as a burden, but Ezra views them as privileges aligned with his goals.

9. Stoicism, Disability, and Identity

[61:05-65:40]

• Ryan introduces Epictetus, the stoic philosopher and former slave whose broken leg became a metaphor for the difference between body and mind.
  • “Lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind.” (Citing Epictetus, 62:10)
• Ezra agrees: his disability forged resilience and ambition, making him extraordinary rather than ordinary.
  • “People ask me all the time... if you had two legs... and I say absolutely not. The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through...” (Ezra, 62:30)
• He would not wish to have been born without his disability, because it shaped his identity and purpose.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Defeat and Motivation:
  • “I set the lock screen on my phone as a photo of the medalists... with the words ‘never again.’ So that every time I would open up my phone... I would see a photo of the dudes that beat me and it would just always reinvigorate me. I gotta go get this one back.” (Ezra, 22:01)
• On Purpose:
  • “The biggest motivator for me is purpose. I genuinely feel in my heart of hearts I was put on this earth to normalize disability, to be an example of what is possible as an amputee...” (Ezra, 23:15)
• On Family and Confidence:
  • “My mom would always tell me... you walk into every room with your chin up, your chest out, and you walk in like you own the place.” (Ezra, 37:41)
• On Stoicism and Disability:
  • “Lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind.” (Epictetus, as quoted by Ryan, 62:10)
  • “I am not the person I am today without my disability... The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through...” (Ezra, 62:30)
• On Not Changing the Past:
  • “If you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it? ... I was like, absolutely not.” (Ezra, 65:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early life and aspirations: 05:12 – 06:37
• Challenges as a Paralympian: 11:20 – 13:22
• Turning pro and optimizing life: 13:42 – 17:05
• Setbacks, silver medal, and perspective: 17:26 – 25:19
• Purpose as motivation: 23:15 – 25:52
• Daily metrics vs. purpose tension: 33:12 – 36:59
• Family influence and upbringing: 37:12 – 44:41
• Representation as opportunity: 55:17 – 59:13
• Stoicism and identity: 61:05 – 65:40

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Tone & Style

Enthusiastic, candid, and deeply reflective. Both Ryan and Ezra maintain an open, thoughtful atmosphere, balancing humor with gravity and offering intensely personal insight into the interplay of adversity, ambition, and stoic philosophy.

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Takeaways

• The road to greatness is paved with setbacks, but setbacks fuel greater purpose when reframed through the right mindset.
• Embracing one's challenges—rather than wishing them away—can unlock profound resilience, drive, and meaning.
• Winning can be about more than podiums: it's about who you become and what you contribute to others as you pursue your goals.
• True stoic philosophy isn’t ignoring hardship but integrating it into one’s identity, drawing strength—and wisdom—from the experience.

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For further inspiration, Ezra can be followed on Instagram and TikTok (@ezrafreck), YouTube, and the Adaptive docu-series is highly recommended by Ryan.

Transcript

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[Ezra Freck]

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[Ryan Holiday]

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[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

Boy, oh boy, you're something else, Ezra. Okay, so you, the story is you were three years old and the doctors had to amputate your leg. Tell us your story.

[Young Ezra Freck]

So I was born with one finger on my left hand and a leg that was curved. They removed the part that was curved. They took the big toe. And they put it on my left hand. So now I have two fingers and a stump that they can put a prosthetic leg on.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

Right, so. And it has not slowed you down a bit, has it?

[Young Ezra Freck]

No, no.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

So you. And you love sports.

[Young Ezra Freck]

I love sports.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

And you. I mean, in this kid, it's amazing what you have done. You've done so many. What are all the sports you play?

[Young Ezra Freck]

I play basketball. We're starting basketball season. I play soccer. Soccer season is next. This is actually my football jersey that we just ended. I was the QB.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

Does that mean quarterback?

[Young Ezra Freck]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

J4.

[Ezra Freck]

You're a quarterback. Wow.

[Young Ezra Freck]

And then the. And then the one that I love the most is probably track and field. I set seven national records.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

So your ultimate goal is what do you want to do with your life?

[Young Ezra Freck]

I probably want to go to the Paralympics someday. Hopefully the Olympics. Well, I'm a kid. I'm nine years old. I have, like, 20 more years to think about it, but I don't know.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

Yeah, well, you should for sure, want.

[Young Ezra Freck]

To be an athlete.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

You want to be an athlete, and you will. You are an athlete, but you also should be a motivational speaker, because you really should go and talk to kids.

[Ezra Freck]

Thank you. I do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Good.

[Ezra Freck]

You do.

[Interviewer (Child Segment)]

That's good.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's crazy to think that that's who he is. It's like you watch that clip of Tiger woods when he's on some talk show when he's like, two or three, and then who would have guessed that this person would go on to be what they end up becoming? But here, the kid from that clip is now 20, and he's accomplished a lot. He actually. He'd just come from very far away. He'd just been competing somewhere, and it hadn't gone well. It was interesting to see him kind of shaken about that. We talked a lot about that thing they call the sort of silver medal paradox, how, you know, bronze athletes are sometimes happier than silver athletes. And he was, like, raw from that experience. It was a fascinating thing to be able to ask him about. We talked about how his parents shaped him. We talked about the pressure that comes when you are a representative of a group. Right. Of a minority, of a type of people, when they see something in you and the public sees you as a representative of them. And we talked about how he learned to manage his emotions. It was also funny to find out that his dad had been sending him stuff from the Daily Stoics since he was a kid. And I was really excited to have him on. He just came out with this cool three part docu series with NBC Sports called Adaptive, which is about challenging some of those narratives about disability and how it's not something you overcome, it's something you embrace. It's something that helps you become what you're capable of being. That there's meaning in it and there's something to learn from it. I reached out to some people I know who are also Paralympians, one of whom's a wounded vet, and I asked him what he thought of Ezra. He said only very nice things. So I was really excited to have him on and I thought this made for a great interview. You can follow Ezra on Instagram and TikTok, ezrafreck and on YouTube it's Ezra Freck. I will link to that and check out the the Adaptive Doc. Cause it's really, really good. And I thought this was a great conversation. I think you're the youngest person on this podcast, so congratulations.

[Ezra Freck]

Wow.

[Ryan Holiday]

I think so.

[Ezra Freck]

I appreciate that.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's sure. No, it's funny. You.

[Ezra Freck]

That'll go on my resume.

[Ryan Holiday]

I was for many years always the youngest person to do stuff. And then at some point you wake up and you're like, I remember, I lived. I remember I was in LA and I was working at this talent agency and I was working for this guy and he was like, he was a movie producer, but he was 26, which is like very young. And to me he was like super old, you know, he was like. And he was, he was, I remember he said to me, he was like, it's all very exciting. You're young and then you're more successful than all your friends. And then he's like Starting at about 26, 27, they all start graduating from medical school and stuff. And he's like. And then it all evens out very quickly. That's because, because like I dropped out of college. I, I was like in the mix very early in doing like exciting, interesting stuff.

[Ezra Freck]

Compared to your friends.

[Ryan Holiday]

Compared to my friends who like this is all around the financial crisis. So most of them like either didn't find what they wanted to do right away because there no one was hiring, or they went back to get to go to grad school or whatever. And then it all, it all kind of evens out.

[Ezra Freck]

It evens out because most students are in school for an extended period of time and then immediately enter the workforce. Yeah, no, I, I resonate with that. I totally resonate with that. It's also weird to be already in pursuit of your maybe career really early compared to Your friends, because you don't have a lot of shared experiences. And I guess in my, in my.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, all your peers are older, right?

[Ezra Freck]

I have friends from high school and friends in college that are my age, but we're just operating in totally different worlds sometimes, if that makes sense. They, you know, they're interested in going out and partying and hanging out and doing this thing and finding internships at companies that I have the opportunity to partner with. Right. So it's just a totally weird almost dynamic of career power in a way. But, but at the same time it's like you're right that at a certain point it completely evens out. And then it's like the friends that have been studying for eight years are now just like, you know, some successful doctor.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

And we're 27 and I mean, I'd like to think at 27 I'll be like this much further down my career.

[Ryan Holiday]

But. Well, being, being an athlete must be weird too, because on the one hand it's childlike, like you're still playing a game, you're doing a thing that you did. Right. And there's, it's like fun and interesting and exciting. It's not like the real world, like having to go to an office. And on the other hand, you have to be serious and professional in a way that your college friends don't like. The college athlete is on campus as an athlete like all the other students, but basically has a full time unpaid job, for sure.

[Ezra Freck]

And the difference is that what I feel like I'm trying to pursue, especially in the Paralympic space, I mean, I've grown up obsessed with this dream, obsessed with this goal. I grew up dying to live the life that I'm able to live right now. And so I have a lot of gratitude just in that sense. But the reality is, at least the way the Paralympics is right now, it's maybe the best comparison. The best comparison would be women's sports 20 years ago or 15 years ago, where you're not able to make a living just by being good at your sport. That's the reality. Sports not paying you, just being good at your sport, you don't make any money. I know five time Paralympic gold medalists dominating their sport for years who are living paycheck to paycheck. That's the reality. People always talk about how difficult it is to be an Olympic athlete. It's really difficult. And then it's 10 times worse to be a Paralympic athlete.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, of course. For many reasons.

[Ezra Freck]

For many reasons. And so I'm Sort of always in this uphill battle. So in the same way that I have to be hyper focused on my career because everything I do on the track has to be number one important, because that sets up all these other opportunities. In that same way, I have to pursue things excluding the track, like the content creation, like the speaking, like the sponsor stuff, like whatever else we might be doing in order to actually in some ways fund that athletic career. Which is, which is super interesting.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, you basically are a professional athlete and then your job is like content creator, influencer, person. But instead of being like, I just put on these clothes, you have to run really fast.

[Ezra Freck]

Exactly, exactly. And so think, like to think about the type of commitment that goes into being the best, which is you have to be all in. I have to be all in on the track. I need to be putting my blood, sweat, tears into this. I need to sacrifice everything in my life. But then I also have to figure out ways to monetize because the sport isn't paying me. And then additionally, hard to keep up with school. Like, the reality is doing an essay late at night for a class that isn't that important to the general gist of my career is sometimes really hard to justify.

[Ryan Holiday]

But the school gives you the chance to perform in front of large groups of people and be in the NCAA mix in a way that, like, being, I don't know, an independent lacrosse player is not going to give you. Like, that's where the fans are.

[Ezra Freck]

I did, I did one year competing on the collegiate team and then I went pro this past summer.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, so you can't.

[Ezra Freck]

I'm not running on USC anymore.

[Ryan Holiday]

Interesting.

[Ezra Freck]

And the way track and field works is that because there's no league, you get what's called a professional contract. So professionalizing going pro in track and field is signing to an apparel company where now you get paid for performance bonuses. You get paid to win the world title, break the world record, win a national championship. That's our equivalent running for an apparel company as getting drafted to the MLB or NHL or NBA.

[Ryan Holiday]

But if you were Caitlin Clark, you could have an apparel deal. No. And still play.

[Ezra Freck]

Right, right, right. You know, you can still, you can still on the NBA, NFL. You also get apparel deals on top of that.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, no. I mean, I mean, like if, if you're Caitlin Clark and you're playing in college, she could have an apparel deal and not lose her. Like.

[Ezra Freck]

And I could too. And I could too.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, got it.

[Ezra Freck]

But the type of apparel deal is different. I won't get paid for Performance? Oh, it's a nil deal where you basically it's based on your name, image, likeness, you get a base amount of money.

[Ryan Holiday]

Got it.

[Ezra Freck]

If I win a world title or break the world record, that amount doesn't change.

[Ryan Holiday]

So it's the, the incentives are what make you pro. So you perform money versus no money and now it's what little memo they put on the chair.

[Ezra Freck]

It's like if you do well, if you perform well on the track, then you basically make more money, which is the closest equivalent to being an NBA player and you do well and you get a bigger contract.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right?

[Ezra Freck]

That's the closest, closest equivalent. That's why in track it's called professionalizing because there's real, really no league. I just go compet at international meets around Europe. I write where team USA on the world stage and stuff like that. And then you have based on your sponsors bonuses, assuming you do well.

[Ryan Holiday]

Did turning pro feel different? Like, like did it change how you approach doing it or is it just an accounting switch?

[Ezra Freck]

It, it changes a little bit. So the reality is I had a pretty difficult first year, or I guess only year on the USC track team. I took a gap year when I graduated high school, I took the gap year to train entirely for the Paris Paralympic Games before I went to college. And what that allowed me to do is basically organize and optimize everything that I was doing in my day designed to perform on the track. So 10 to 12 hours of sleep every night, five, six hours of recovery, sauna, red light, cryo, hyperbaric chamber, a few hours on the track, my morning meditation, visuals. Everything that I was doing was intended to get me closer to winning Paralympic gold. And then I went to college after an amazing Paralympic Games. After all the success, I go to college and now I'm dealing with teachers that don't care about anything else that I'm doing. I have homework assignments, an 8am class. We're only allowed to be on the track from this time to this time. We waitlift from this time. So it was in a way became really difficult for me to maintain that level of optimization that I had leading into Paris. And so because of that I was just sort of struggling to find my way. Eventually I got a little bit better at it. But in a way going pro gives me the opportunity to get back to that place of full optimization. This is my main thing, this is my main thing. I build my schedule around this. And then what happened was, you know, I just got back from a world championships in India. I landed literally in LA yesterday and then jumped on the flight two hours later to come here and.

[Ryan Holiday]

Are you exhausted?

[Ezra Freck]

I'm a little tired, but, you know, I'm good. Energy in the room sometimes brings about your own mental energy, so I'm all right, but. But the reality is I didn't do very well at this last World Championships, the one in India, the one I just got back from. Really poor, really bad performance on my end and the ramifications of a difficult year where I wasn't fully optimized.

[Ryan Holiday]

And so it's a lagging indicator of. What does performed badly mean to you.

[Ezra Freck]

In Paris, at the Paralympics, I won the high jump. I'm the world record holder on the high jump. And I won. I lost the world title. I got a silver in the high jump.

[Ryan Holiday]

In India.

[Ezra Freck]

In India. And then I.

[Ryan Holiday]

So bad for you. Is second place bad?

[Ezra Freck]

100% is second place, especially in high jump. That's my main event.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's true.

[Ezra Freck]

That's my event. And then the 100 meter, which I won in Paris, I placed fifth in. Once again. I mean, it's been a difficult year, a really unorthodox year, ridiculed with injuries and things going on. We released a documentary. I had to do a whole press tour. And so things were really inconsistent. Training wasn't really there. And then that's what happens when you go to World Championships under prepared, like that's. That's the result. But I will say, you know, I look back on this World Championships quite fondly. I'm sort of excited about all learnings and what will come, but I totally lost. And it was really, you know, lots of tears the last couple of weeks.

[Ryan Holiday]

It's funny you say that. Do you know that this sort of silver metal paradox. Have you heard this thing?

[Ezra Freck]

Is it that getting silver is worse than getting bronze? Because when you're bronze, you're happy to be on the podium, but when you get silver, you're so close to gold, you feel like you were cheated or so bummed, and you were.

[Ryan Holiday]

You actually feel that that checks out for you.

[Ezra Freck]

I mean, 1000% that's real in a way, because, you know, there's been times where, you know, I've gotten a bronze medal at some international competition and I am so hyped that I got this bronze medal. Right. But then you get a silver and you think, oh, man, I was really close to gold. I think circumstance is really important, though.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

And so I am the world record holder on the high jump. I should not lose that event. If I lose the high jump, it is. It is me beating myself. It is not my opponent beating me, if that makes any sense. So the fact that I lost that and got a silver and that's what.

[Ryan Holiday]

Couldn't it just as easily be the conditions or that the other person outperformed? Like, what?

[Ezra Freck]

So the other person performed really well. He'd have the best day of his life. And I had to have a really bad day. I mean, and there's so many. You're right. There's so many variables involved. Conditions, injuries. Like, a few weeks before the competition, I could barely walk. I hurt my back real bad.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right?

[Ezra Freck]

But at the end of the day, there's no excuses. Like, I showed up next to this dude and he beat me. He's the world champion. And that eats me alive.

[Ryan Holiday]

Really? It eats you alive?

[Ezra Freck]

Eats me alive. I mean, for context, just so you understand how I operate, I was 16 years old at the Tokyo 2020 Paralympic Games.

[Ryan Holiday]

Okay?

[Ezra Freck]

I should have been on the podium. I was capable of it. But I was really young as my first Games, and I placed fifth and.

[Ryan Holiday]

Are there age groups in the Paralympics?

[Ezra Freck]

No age groups. So, I mean, it's probably important to establish just some, like, general understanding for the viewers as well, which. And the listeners. Which is the Paralympics happens two weeks after the Olympics, and it is for people with physical disabilities. 15% of the world population, a billion people globally, 50 million in the US that live with a physical disability.

[Young Ezra Freck]

Wow.

[Ezra Freck]

Which is staggering numbers. And in contrast, people with cognitive disabilities, that's 2 to 3% of the US population. So this is a massive, massive number. And what people get confused on is they either think it's the same thing as the Olympics, they think I'm an Olympian, which they are related, but they are different. Different committees and different organizing committees and different games, or they think I'm a Special Olympian, which is. Special Olympics is great. An amazing organization, and they do programming for people with cognitive impairments, but it's inclusive. It's programming.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Ezra Freck]

Paralympics is the highest level sporting competition on the planet. People just happen to have a physical disability, and there's classifications. So I only compete against people with the same or similar disability. I'm not gonna run against a blind dude, guy missing just his hand. He would beat me. And they're more capable. And so in the Paralympics, my classification in the high jump, When I was 16 years old in Tokyo, I got fifth, and I was the final chance for me to get the bronze medal. I take this high jump at a height that was basically my personal best. And I have the best jump of my life. I soar over the bar, I land on the mat. I don't even touch it. I don't feel myself touch it. And I jump up to go celebrate and I see the red flag and the bar's down. And I thought I just didn't touch this bar at all. And my prosthetic leg skimmed the top of the bar.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh. And you wouldn't have felt it.

[Ezra Freck]

And I didn't feel it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

And so I was devastated to lose on the world stage. I felt like I let my family down, my friends, everyone. And so that night I set the lock screen on my phone as a photo of the medalists. When they take that photo with the flags that I watched, that I'm not in with the words never again. So that every time I would open up my phone for those years in between Tokyo and the next Games, which was obviously Paris, I would see a photo of the dudes that beat me and it would just always reinvigorate me. I gotta go get this one back. But that's how I am, you know, that's. I am deeply motivated by my losses and failures and how I can learn from them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Do you think that's healthy?

[Ezra Freck]

I don't know if that's healthy. I think that this is a question that my family poses to me a lot. And my parents job in a way has become to reel me back in when they see me getting to a point because I'm an obsessive at heart. And I think about this all day 24 7. It's all like, goes through my head. I think that's almost a slight qualification to be successful at anything. You have to be all in and super committed. But I don't know if it's healthy. I do a lot of things to make sure I'm mentally in a good place. I meditate daily. I do quite a bit of journaling. I. My mom has basically been my mental coach for very many years. And so they're constantly aware of that and am I going too far? And how to reel me back in. But it's always sort of. That's kind of my personality in a way.

[Ryan Holiday]

I don't. Do you think there's another form of motivation or that's the only thing that could propel you?

[Ezra Freck]

It's not the only thing that propels me. It's actually not even close to the only thing. It's actually probably not even the biggest motivator. The biggest motivator for me is purpose. I genuinely feel in My heart of hearts. I was put on this earth to normalize disability, to be an example of what is possible as an amputee, because the reality is you live with the physical disability, life is worse. People with physical disabilities are bullied in higher rates, have less job opportunities, the depression rate is higher, less physically active. I talk to kids with disabilities all the time. They're bullied in school 24, seven. And in my.

[Ryan Holiday]

They just have the thing to deal with, with whatever it is.

[Ezra Freck]

Right, right. But even excluding that, which for a lot of people is just normal to them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

Their quality of life is substantially worse. And in my opinion, it's because I don't think that disability is properly included in society. In a weird way, like there's this stigma, people don't know what to say. They don't want to say the wrong thing, they don't want to offend anyone. They don't understand. And so I think that my purpose in life is to normalize disability. And the way I believe I do that is through becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time, through putting myself out there in the media, building a big enough brand to be the spokesperson for this contingent of the population.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Ezra Freck]

And so that's the biggest driver for me, which is, I think of, you know, there's kids in parts of Africa, places in the Middle east, people with disabilities are considered cursed. There was a story that my mom read a few months after I was born about a Chinese trash scavenger that adopted 40 something children because they were born missing fingers and limbs and were thrown in the trash. And he found them there and adopted them. Kids with disabilities. Around the world we have soldiers who came back from the Middle east and said that they found kids with disabilities shot and killed in the forest just because they were born different. And so if I think about the grand scheme of things, my purpose in life, this might not be the healthiest way to think about it, but if I don't accomplish my goals, if I don't rewire the way the world sees disability, more of these children suffer and more people with disabilities suffer.

[Ryan Holiday]

So where does getting second place next to another Paralympian?

[Ezra Freck]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

What is. Why do you have to feel shitty about that?

[Ezra Freck]

Because winning, winning and going down as the greatest Paralympian of all time, track is just one of the first steps to accomplishing that larger vision and elevating the profile of the Paralympics and broadening the brand and the opportunities that come from that. And so in my head, I need to go down as the Greatest Paralympian of all time in order to then be at a place to create this sort of broader change.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I mean, I relate to it. It's a. Tension. Right. Because, like, did you feel like there was something that you could have done that you didn't do and that's what you're kicking yourself about, or are you mostly just mad about the results?

[Ezra Freck]

So losing in general sucks.

[Ryan Holiday]

That's Nobody.

[Ezra Freck]

Nobody likes to lose. And I'm ultra.

[Ryan Holiday]

Losers do. Have you ever heard that joke?

[Ezra Freck]

No, what is that?

[Ryan Holiday]

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

[Ezra Freck]

Oh, right. Because if they're okay with losing and they're a loser. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's funny.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, now, if you're good with losing, you'll lose a lot.

[Ezra Freck]

You'll lose a lot. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. I mean, so, yeah, in general, losing sucks, but that's not sort of. I accept that. I know that in a sport that.

[Ryan Holiday]

You'Re gonna win all the time, you're.

[Ezra Freck]

Not going all the time. That's the way it goes. And for me, it's more so what I do in the preparation, if I do everything in my power possible, if I leave no stone unturned, I can walk away from the track after the competition. Whether I'm pissed about losing, that's fine. But I did everything I could. There was no stone left unturned. And I do feel similarly about this last competition. The only thing is, we just took a lot of risks throughout the year. I was the first above the knee amputee to ever compete on a D1 track team. We didn't know what that was gonna look like. We made a lot of changes, prosthetic wise. There was. I was sort of battling a ton of adversity, a few injuries. And then we released this documentary on Peacock. It's called Adaptive. And I basically put my heart and soul into making this project. So I had to do everything in my power to make sure that it's successful and people watch it. And we did a whole media tour, which I don't regret because we. I needed to do that for the bigger purpose.

[Ryan Holiday]

But it might have cost you, but it cost me.

[Ezra Freck]

It did. And so I had inconsistent training. And, you know, within the circumstances, I did the best I could.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

But this learning from the losses at this World Championships is moving forward. The main thing needs to be the main thing. And this was the first year I've really struggled to juggle everything because after Paris, everything sort of elevated and we had Opportunities come in beforehand, but not at the same level and not in the same way. And so now I have to figure out how to balance everything. And this year was just the learning. So. You hear that?

[Toyota Trucks Narrator]

That's not just a Toyota truck. That's the sound of no crowds, no alerts, no distractions, and no telling what you'll find next. You know, like a detour. So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastow County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought, this isn't going to work. Stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields, and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in. We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids, who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course, because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure Detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory. Learn [e-mail] Trucks Adventure detours. When the hard part is you do these other things. Because for me, you can't just be an author for the most part these days, just the economics of the business and also the things that ultimately make people read the books you got to do over here, like this podcast is a good example. But the problem is all those other things, as well as they can pay and as interesting they can be, they all have a cost. But you don't find out about the cost. You know the cost is there, but you think you're getting away with it. Right. And you don't pay the bill until some unexpected later moment. And it's often higher than you wanted it to be.

[Ezra Freck]

That's exactly how I feel that you couldn't have articulated that any more perfectly, because as you're juggling these things, of course you think you're doing it right. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then you're putting it on a.

[Ezra Freck]

Credit card and you never anticipate what it's actually going to build up to, what you're going to have to pay at the end of it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And then you're putting on the credit card. You're putting on the credit card and then you're paying the minimums on the credit card. And then at one point, you know, because nobody looks at their mail, one day you do open it and you're like, oh, and it's second place. Or it's not even qualifying, or it's. Your immune system is bad because you were at a party the night before the thing because you agreed. Yeah. And you just. Or your spouse walks out on you. There's all these things that you don't know where the cost is being incurred. But just because you're not quantifying it doesn't mean it's not accumulating.

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely. And I think as disappointed as we can be in those moments, I was actually overcome with quite a bit of gratitude there, just in the fact that I'm able to have this learning opportunity come to me at such an early stage in my career, learn how to adjust, navigate, and make sure that those mistakes don't happen again when the Games come to my hometown in LA in three years.

[Ryan Holiday]

Better to learn it in India than Los Angeles. Us.

[Ezra Freck]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Ryan Holiday]

Do you think you'll actually learn it?

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

I would say, because that's the problem.

[Ryan Holiday]

Life sort of gives us these reminders. It happens, and often. And then tomorrow you got a, you know, a bunch of requests and you're like, I think I can do it.

[Ezra Freck]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

And.

[Ezra Freck]

And also, what is that sort of philosophy or that sort of mental structure where it's like, oftentimes things that it's better to be. I think. I think it's Chris Williamson who said this. He was like, it's better to be sometimes in a way worse position because you have more activation energy to get out of that than if something slightly goes wrong.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Ezra Freck]

Because if something's slightly going wrong, maybe you're in a little bit of an uncomfortable position. There's not enough activation energy for people to really pull themselves out of it.

[Ryan Holiday]

You can Lie to yourself.

[Ezra Freck]

You can lie to yourself. In this case, though, I feel like I'm on. This is. This is one of the more difficult few weeks of my entire life competing at this World Championships, you know, knowing all that I put in and not feeling like I was prepared. And so I would like to think I'll learn from this. But time will tell. If I'm on the podium, excuse me, when I'm on the podium with three gold medals in LA in 2028, we can look back on this and I can say, you know what? I did learn from it. But we'll see.

[Ryan Holiday]

But it is interesting, right? Like, we have our sort of larger purpose, which is meaningful and over a long time span, and, and, and then we end up defaulting, though, to the much more easily measurable metrics. If I told you you could radically change people's idea of disabilities and whatever, but you were gonna never stand on the podium again, I would accept that.

[Ezra Freck]

Like this in a heartbeat, right?

[Ryan Holiday]

But day to day, you're evaluating your progress on your race times and whether you're on the podium or not, right? Like, people do this with money, right? They go like, you picked this thing. Of all the things, not the most lucrative, like, you could have gotten into cryptocurrency or hedge funds or what. There's so many. If all you're cared about was optimizing for money, there's many things you could choose. And so people don't choose that. They choose social work or, you know, this or that. And then though, once they're in there, they're like measuring themselves against other people by what kind of car they drive or how nice their house is. It's like you already said, money was not the most important thing to you, but because the other thing isn't as quantifiable, you're kind of whipping yourself day to day, or you're making individual decisions based on money, even though you've already made, you've already asserted your larger purpose as. Not that. Like, I remember, I, I think I talked about this in one of my books, but. So I told you I worked at American Apparel and the founder is this kind of weird, Elon Musk esque character. And I remember someone, their big thing was they manufactured all their clothes in the US and someone was saying, like, hey, I don't know if, like, obviously you know this, but I'm just reiterating it to you that you should, if you moved the factory to Mexico, you'd make a lot more money. And he was like, if all I cared about was making money, is what the owner said. He's like, I would have just become a drug dealer. And I think about that all the time. It's like, oh, yeah, he. He chose this thing because he loves this thing, not because it's the way to maximize profits. So why would he make individual decisions that are designed to maximize profits? Profits, Right. And so that's kind of the paradox is like, we have this larger purpose and that's how we'll evaluate our life as a whole. But then day to day, we're like, does this get me more money? Does this get me more fame? Does this get me more this? And then we wonder why we don't end up doing the bigger, larger goal.

[Ezra Freck]

Right? Which. Which is an interesting dichotomy. That's an interesting balance between. You have. The reality is you can have sort of long term goals, but you have to have things in the short term to sort of keep yourself accountable as you get towards them. And it's making sure that those things are actually still in line. And that's why, yes, I know that getting a silver medal at this World Championships, I'm not actually getting further away from maybe my larger purpose or the goals I want to accomplish, but part of that purpose, in my opinion, is the opportunity to elevate Paralympic sport because of what the Paralympics can do to change perceptions about people with disabilities. And the reality is, in the Paralympics, or let's just say in any other sport movement, you have a person that is able to transcend the movement and bring it into the mainstream. Swimming wasn't on national TV the same way until Michael Phelps came along. Women's basketball, you can make an argument recently, hasn't reached new heights until Caitlin Clark comes along. The UFC was popular, but Conor McGregor took it to a whole nother level. I think that there's the opportunity for someone to do that for the Paralympics, and I feel like it's my duty to be that person. And so that's why the not winning has an added layer of frustration. Because I feel like I have the opportunity to elevate the movement and I have to win in order to do that, if that makes sense.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, it totally makes sense. It sounds like your parents did a really good job when you were young of, like, building you up, like, of making you feel like you could be the person that could do that.

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely. My parents are the reason I am confident, secure. I mean, living with a disability, not fucking easy. Everywhere I went in public as a young kid, everywhere you have people staring and Pointing fingers and whispering. I felt like a zoo animal. For so many years of my life. I felt ostracized from society in a way. And the values and lessons that my parents instilled in me as a young kid completely helped shape the confidence that I believe I exhibit today. For example, I would be really insecure as a young kid. And my mom would always tell me, she said, my whole upbringing, you walk into every room with your chin up, your chest out, and you walk in like you own the place. You don't retreat to that insecurity about your disability. And so growing up, every room I walked into, I had my chin up, my chest held high. My parents never treated me any different. I participated in sports my whole childhood. They encouraged me to go after my dreams. And so then over, I became this kid who was hyper confident in what he believed he was able to do regardless of disability or not. And that just came from the words that my parents constantly reiterated to me throughout my childhood.

[Ryan Holiday]

Where do you think they learned how to do that? Like, did they have experience?

[Ezra Freck]

No, I was the first kid. Imagine your first child is born with a disability. And my parents were real environmental advocates up until that point. And then they sort of realized that, you know, the environment has plenty of people advocating for it, but that people with disabilities really don't. And so they sort of made it our family mission to be disability advocates. We have a non profit in LA that my, my dad ran and still runs called Angel City Sports, where we provide sports opportunities for people with physical disabilities. And so the whole family just shifted towards disability. But they haven't had any prior experience in raising a kid. Had all these values. They just, I don't know, intuitively understood how to fill me up with confidence and make me secure in myself. And I think they should write a parenting book. I don't know.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, reading about it, it must have been scary and hard for them in the sense that it was a process, like in the sense that you were born a certain way. But then there were a bunch of different surgeries and probably insanely difficult decisions that they had to make that affect you. But you can't like 100% 20 year old, you can't go back and be like, hey, I'm gonna great about this. They, they're worried. Like they amputated a leg.

[Ezra Freck]

They amputated a leg. So I had a left leg that was curved up towards my waist and it wouldn't have been functional as I work to continue to grow. And then I had one finger on my Left hand. And so they traveled the world trying to find doctors that would basically propose a solution to make my life the most functional. Moving forward amputation. Some doctor says this thing. And so they had to basically make a decision that was going to permanently affect their child's life.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

Without, you're right, his consent or understanding or any of that. And so they made the decision to amputate my left leg right at the knee and then do a toe to hand transplant from the left foot onto my left hand so that I could pick up and hold things. And I mean, they have a lot of stories about they canceled a surgery actually in the 11th hour, like right before because they had a gut feeling that it was wrong. Just so much went on. But it's crazy to think about. I sometimes forget. And now that you're mentioning it, it's making me really think about it again. But. But it's insane to have to make decisions like that for your children.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, no, there's a. There's this guy named Chesty Puller who was one of the most decorated marines in American history. Went through some of the worst battles of the Second World War. There's this story, you know, so you think he's like the hardest guy in the world. And there's this story about having to like, take his daughter in. And you all experience this at some point, but like the hardest part as a parent, if you ever had a kid do any kind of serious medical procedure, is the like when you give your kid to this person and then that walk down the hallway where they're being like wheeled away from, it's just like the heartbreaking, worst, most vulnerable moment you'll ever, you'll ever go through. And he, you know, he's. She's getting her tonsils out, like something minor, but he's like, he's giving it to the doctor and he comes back to his wife and he's just weeping and he says, you know, that that was worse than Peleliu. I think that was worse than like one of the worst invasions of World War II. And you go, yeah. Because in this moment, the thing basically they say like, having a kid is like having your heart outside your body. And you're like having to give that thing to someone else that you've met once to like cut them open or do this terrible thing to them. And I can only imagine that, like, they obviously, you do all the research, you think, and then you're like, hope we're fucking making the right decision.

[Ezra Freck]

And yeah, that's crazy.

[Ryan Holiday]

Isn't that crazy?

[Ezra Freck]

That's so crazy. And it makes sense. And, you know, my mom always told me, growing up, she's like, you will never understand how much I love you until you have a kid of your own. And my, you know, my family, my parents, those are the people I do it for. That's my village. Those are my biggest supporters in the world. But I can't even imagine what it must have been like to have to. You know, because this is 15 hours. 15 hours once again, amputating and cutting me open, like.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then all the recovery afterwards.

[Ezra Freck]

And then all the recovery afterwards. You know, we didn't even know if the surgery was going to be successful. My body might not have taken on the new finger. They were connecting nerves and tendons and arteries. There was a memory I have actually, when I was. I don't even know how long post surgery, but I was in the bathtub, and I was in the bath for an extended period of time. And my new thumb, my new finger, which was the toe, wrinkled in the bath for the first time, which is the sign that the body has accepted it. And my parents freaked out and were celebrating and crying. And, you know, as a young kid, I maybe didn't fully process it, but I just got chills retelling the story that that was the first sign that my body had accepted that the surgery had been fully successful, which is crazy. Imagine it wasn't successful. You do all that and it still doesn't work. That was the risk they were taking.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, well, and there's also this struggle as a parent. Cause it's like you. You have this idea of what your kid is going to be, and then everyone gets. Not that or not the average. You get your kid, and every kid is different, and every kid is not what you expect. And then there's this process of having to go, oh, this is the assignment that we got. And it's not maybe the assignment that we expected. It's certainly not the easiest assignment. And it's not what our neighbor's assignment is or what all the other parents. And then you go, oh, I gotta figure out what's being asked of me here and what the job is here and what success is here. And, like, you're their first kid. And so, like, first off, they just have no experience. And they definitely have no experience in that specific thing.

[Ezra Freck]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

It must have been incredible.

[Ezra Freck]

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I love that assignment analogy. It's like, yeah, you don't know what homework assignment you're about to get in some way, but that's life.

[Ryan Holiday]

And I think what stoic philosophy is also saying is like everyone gets a fucking assignment and sometimes it's a very privileged assignment and sometimes it's very, a powerless assignment. But like your job is to, to play that hand well.

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely. And you know, controlling your mind is the first step to being able to manage those external circumstances. Funny enough, my dad actually for you know, all of my sort of elementary into middle school and even sometimes in high school years, he would, he would just write, send me motivational quotes or things like that and around my track competitions would actually, he would subscribe to your newsletter.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh really?

[Ezra Freck]

And he would be, he would always send me, you know, whatever the write up of the day was. And so I went back and I looked at a couple of them today and I was just like back in my email, I just scrolled down and I was like, wow, that's really cool to see.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, to go to the point about like someday all your friends also grow up. That's the other thing is you do a thing long enough and then people are like, oh yeah, I've been reading your stuff since I was 12. And you're like, I, you don't feel like, right, like you could be old. Like I just did the Obstacles Away just had its 10th anniversary and it's like, like I don't feel like a person who could have a 10 year old book. That just, that's not how it feels to me. But then time is just always sort of working on you.

[Ezra Freck]

Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And you, you go from like the young to the not young. And then one day you wake up and you have gray hair and stuff. It's a, it's a weird process.

[Ezra Freck]

Yeah, absolutely. No, it's, it's, it's totally surreal and it's, I think that's sort of the beauty of it all, which is like as you're going through something, sometimes you don't maybe appreciate it as much as possible. And that's something that I've tried to really think about, which is, I love the quote when I don't remember where I got it from. It was like, it's hard to stop and smell the roses when you're riding on a horseback.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Ezra Freck]

And it's hard, I can imagine as you're constantly in pursuit and a million things are happening and you're going after these goals that you set for yourself to then really appreciate the moment. But then when you look back 10 years later, you go, oh my gosh, I've been, you know what I mean? I have so much appreciation for those early moments or this or that.

[Ryan Holiday]

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[Ezra Freck]

That's a great point. And that's something that I am continuing to grapple with, which is I love what I do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

I'm so blessed. I get to travel around the world, go to cool places, compete in a sport that I love. I love. I. I'm so grateful. I wake up every day and go to the track and love this. I love the recovery. I love getting great sleep. Like, this is my life, and I'm. I enjoy it so intentionally. And in that same vein, though, Sure. I also hold myself to a ridiculously high standard.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Ezra Freck]

And believe that I'm capable of becoming the greatest Paralympian of all time. And then if I'm capable of it, to not accomplish it would be an insult to all of the people that believe in me or behind me and even myself. And I remember. So one of the. One of the newsletters that my dad sent me that I reread today was about manifestation and about how the Stoics didn't really believe in manifestation. They believed in action. And that action is sort of the one thing you need to add to manifestation.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Ezra Freck]

To make it happen. And I am thinking about it. Is thinking about it is nothing unless you do.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

Thinking about it is worthless if you're not actually intentionally trying to pursue that thing. And so, you know, I do wholeheartedly believe that if you are thinking about something and then also in pursuit of that thing aggressively, I think you have a higher likelihood of accomplishing it than if you have no emotional attachment. Don't care at all.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

But, you know, I. I read that this morning and it reminded me of just sort of this whole process of like, action is everything here. And it's the person who takes action, who takes more action that will be more successful. Oftentimes just thinking about it means you're going to take more action a little bit.

[Ryan Holiday]

Was your dad really into sports or was it a surprise for them that you went this direction?

[Ezra Freck]

My dad was into sports in a way. He almost went pro in skateboarding. He could have done well in soccer. He was a great athlete. But never. No one in my fam. No one in my family has pursued anything athletically. I'm from a Persian family that, you know, on paper, doesn't have the greatest athletic genes. One time there was. We were actually at a. At a family party and there was. Someone had to climb through a window to unlock a door. It got jammed or whatever. And they were about to send me. And then all my family, they were like, no, we can't send the only child that has any athletic potential.

[Ryan Holiday]

What does this say about him?

[Ezra Freck]

You have to keep him healthy. But so, yeah, no real athletic genes in the family.

[Ryan Holiday]

It seems like they had the drive to be elite at things, which is, I think sometimes people go think that, like, oh, they're into sports, but actually you find like sports, acting, entrepreneurship, it's all the same kind of drive to perfect and perform and be really good at something.

[Ezra Freck]

Yes, absolutely. That makes sense. And they did have that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Interesting.

[Ezra Freck]

And have had that.

[Ryan Holiday]

So. So I imagine they probably understood that given some of the struggles you were going to go through and some of the maybe confidence issues, that having a thing that you could control and throw yourself into would be really good for you.

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely. And the reality is sports is really powerful for that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Ezra Freck]

It's one of the many maybe universal connectors in a way where you can bring people together from totally different backgrounds, totally different experiences, and they're playing a sport together. There's a level of connection. And so for me, that was my way in to finding friends, finding myself, building confidence, the nature of my disability. I was able to just keep up with my friends, play sports all throughout elementary school. Most people with disabilities can't do that. Their disabilities might be more severe. Even the ones that do integrate face massive discrimination. That's why we have the nonprofit for people who aren't able to fully integrate in a way.

[Ryan Holiday]

Right.

[Ezra Freck]

But that's why I gravitated towards sports, because I felt like I belonged.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

Everywhere I would go throughout the day, I didn't feel like I belonged. But then when I stepped on the court, when I step on the track, I felt like one of the guys, and that was powerful.

[Ryan Holiday]

And that when to have something that you're excellent at or that you're dominating at, that's. It's like, I am enough or what? And. But that can be the tricky part, is that you pick up early on that I'm only good when I achieve or I accomplish.

[Ezra Freck]

Right. Which is why the foundation of I am enough. Who I am.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Ezra Freck]

And I love this quote that I heard one time where it was like, it's not about the journey, and it's not about the destination. It's about who you become in pursuit of the destination, like, in pursuit of your goals. The person you become is more powerful than the destination or the journey itself. And for me, you know, my parents made sure that I was confident in who I was, and sports was a part of that. My family was a part of that, that my work ethic was a part of that. My dreams. Right. Every variable that impacted my life, of course, is going to play a role in my confidence. But that foundation was strong thanks to them.

[Ryan Holiday]

Is it exhausting, though, having to be a representative of something? Like, I. I read this thing from John Thompson once, who's one of the first black coaches in. In college basketball, and he was saying, like, the one thing about my career is I never just got to be a basketball coach. He's always a black basketball coach, or he's always the first of this. Or he has to represent a community in a way that insert random other coach, athlete, whatever, doesn't have to be.

[Ezra Freck]

I can understand what he's saying. And if you don't intentionally sign up for that, I can see how one might be annoyed by that over an extended period of time.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

I'm grateful for it. I love it. The opportunity to represent something bigger than myself is one of the biggest points of pride. I am so grateful to have that opportunity to represent this community, whether it be representing Team usa, whether it be representing my family lineage, whether it be representing all 1 billion people with the physical disability. I have so much gratitude that that's even the opportunity that I have. And it can be difficult in the sense that a lot of people come up and they go, well, that's so much pressure. You're putting so much pressure on yourself. And, you know, I don't feel the pressure. I wouldn't say that. I. I almost feel like we oftentimes convince ourselves of things a little bit too much, and then they become a reality. So, you know, my mom growing up, every time I was nervous or worried about something, she'd always be like, you're not nervous, you're excited. In the body. It's the same thing. Like, convince yourself you're excited about these things. And so, you know, and I'm not even just, like, saying this to convince myself of it. It's become my reality, which is, I love this opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. I don't see it as anything negative.

[Ryan Holiday]

There must be moments where it would be nice to just not have to carry that around, like, in the sense of, like. Like, I don't know, like, you think about what other people can get away with, right. That don't see themselves as a representative, so they can be like. Like one athlete can throw a temper tantrum and be an asshole in the way that perhaps Caitlin Clark cannot. Right. Or LeBron James as a high schooler to pro, there's a different set of expectations, and he's having to prove a thing that again, insert regular player does not have to think about. Do you ever feel like you're carrying a weight that's not yours, that. And you get tired of that?

[Ezra Freck]

You know, that's a really interesting point, and it makes sense on paper. I can't say that I've ever felt like I'm carrying a burden that that isn't mine. I feel like I put this on myself. And so I feel like I've strengthened my shoulders and back enough that I know the weight that I'm carrying. I have it on my shoulders. And if anything, it's like that's sort of the drive behind all of it. So even if there is something that maybe to someone else might seem like a negative, I haven't even in my head registered that thing as negative because I see it as a part of this larger purpose. Like, yes, on paper, I am not a normal college student. I don't have the luxury of luxury that most college kids where they can just hang out and chill all day and go do this and hang out.

[Ryan Holiday]

With Their friends because they don't like.

[Ezra Freck]

It anymore and quit because I don't like it anymore. Or go to a party and stay out super late. I'm, you know, I'm in bed super early. I'm getting good sleep, I'm not out. I don't drink or do any of this other stuff. And so to the average person that looks like one of those things that sucks, what a burden you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to get up and go to the track. But I see it as, I love this shit. This is so enjoyable. And so I don't even characterize it as a negative thing. Or for example, I don't eat. I don't eat sugar. I don't eat any desserts, like year round. And my family is think. My family thinks I'm crazy. Like, just have one bite of the cake. I don't, I won't even have one bite. One bite. Nothing.

[Ryan Holiday]

Just off the table.

[Ezra Freck]

Off the table. And to the average person, it's like, what a miserable life. But it's like, no, I love this. I love eating the steaks. I love eating healthy. I love the opportunity to be in better shape when the season rolls around and perform at the highest level. So I don't see it as a negative, if that makes sense.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, you were just saying your mom's like, when you go in, you gotta have your chest out and your chin up. And like, I gotta imagine, especially when you're a kid, there's moments where you're like, I just want to sulk into this room and feel sorry for myself.

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

But you don't get to or you don't allow yourself to or do sometimes.

[Ezra Freck]

The philosophy that my parents sort of instilled in me is not that I should am to be void of any negative or insecure feelings, but rather feel them, accept them, and then remind myself of the things that help me work through them. And so I had many moments growing up where, yes, I would cry to my parents as a young kid and say, why did God give me one leg? And why am I the only kid in my school with a disability? And that's, of course, tough. And in the same vein, I have moments on the track like, like few weeks ago where I'm really struggling and sort of battling my own insecurities of am I good enough? Am I able to accomplish these larger goals? Am I the athlete that I say I am, that I vocalize? Who am I? Of course, it's just about learning to navigate through that And I feel like that's what I've become really good at, is in those moments, sort of picking myself back up and piecing myself back together and then moving forward almost even stronger. Because of sort of those darker moments, I really have felt a lot of them. I mean, there was one point where I sort of had this realization as a young kid where I was, like, sulking in this really dark place, and I thought to myself, well, I genuinely can't change this. I can't change the fact that I have a physical disability. I'm not benefiting myself at all by just sulking in this place. Why don't I just say fuck it and make the most out of my life? And so it's those moments that have. Have shaped me into the person I am.

[Ryan Holiday]

Did your dad ever send you any emails about Epictetus?

[Ezra Freck]

Maybe I didn't. I didn't. I just looked at a few of them. I didn't.

[Ryan Holiday]

So. So Epictetus is one of the Stoke philosophers. So he's born a slave or into slavery, spends 30 years of his life in slavery, and he's owned by this sort of cruel master. And so there's one scene that we hear about where the master is just, like, sadistically torturing him for some reason, and he. He ends up breaking Epictetus leg. And in a way, or back then, when the medical care was so bad it doesn't heal right. And so he walks with this limp the rest of his life. So he's known. If you see some of the ancient etchings or drawings of Epictetus, he's usually with a crutch, because this leg is lame, as the parlance of the day was. And so he has this famous quote where he goes like, lameness is a disability of the leg, but not of the mind. And his point was that, like, it actually doesn't really matter that much that my body is disabled in some way, because for the Stoics, the only thing that mattered was what we think about it. And no physical injury to the body affects how we think about it. That is still in our control. And so, ironically or interestingly, stoicism is, at its core, sort of a philosophy built around how do you make sense of and integrate something like this into your life?

[Ezra Freck]

Absolutely. That's a beautiful quote, because in many ways, probably makes him more mentally resilient.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure. It's a metaphor.

[Ezra Freck]

It's a metaphor, you know, and so, you know, I definitely resonate with that.

[Ryan Holiday]

And that's.

[Ezra Freck]

That's super true. I feel I'm not the person I am today without my disability. People ask me all the time, they say, oh, do you think you would be super successful this or that if you had two legs or whatever? And I say absolutely not that. The grit and the way I approach my goals and the person I am is a direct product of the stuff I've gone through, of my disability, of the experiences I've had. The same way, you know, you're not the same person without those, those real difficult times.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, it would probably. You would be normal in the non positive sense. Like you would probably just be like everyone else you went to school with.

[Ezra Freck]

And everything I'm trying to be right now is the antithesis of normal. Yeah.

[Ryan Holiday]

And normal is. It's ordinary. Vers. Extraordinary.

[Ezra Freck]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

You would be ordinary. You'd have all the facilities and, you know, advantages of everyone. And then the disadvantage would be that you would take those things for granted and when things were hard, you would probably quit. Or when you, when something didn't go your way, you would accept it. And you, you probably also, your parents would have probably not been so intentional about the lessons and the values that they imparted because they would have gone like, like, he'll figure it out. It's not that hard, you know. And instead they had to sort of put you through a kind of training school for the life that, you know, if you didn't have certain skills was awaiting you. And then they succeeded so much in that that you became extraordinary instead of ordinary.

[Ezra Freck]

Thank you. No, it's great. It's absolutely right. It's super interesting to think about and it's such a fun thought experiment. Could you don't realize it similarly to how we were talking about that oftentimes you don't realize maybe how things add up over time until you get to a point that's maybe easily, easily understood or easily marked. In the same way that you don't realize how much of your life is tied to certain parts of your identity until you take a real step back and think about it. And you know, I don't think of myself as just a disabled person. When I think of myself throughout the day, I don't think, oh, I have one leg and two fingers all the time, that doesn't cross my mind. But then when you really take a step back and think about how many parts of my life and personality and character and upbringing has been tied to navigating something that is such a big part of my physical life, it's super interesting. You know, who am I without that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. You think you want it to go a certain way or you want to be dealt a certain hand, and it doesn't really matter what you think because you don't get a say.

[Ezra Freck]

Exactly.

[Ryan Holiday]

But it turns out that oftentimes what you got, if you respond right, turns out to be exactly the right thing.

[Ezra Freck]

It all impacts who you become. I was doing this radio interview, and I was a young kid, and I was maybe 10 or 11, and they asked me this question. They said, if you had the opportunity to go back and change your disability, would you do it? And my dad was there, and it was the first time I had ever been asked a question like that. And I looked the host dead in the eyes, and I was like, absolutely not.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wow.

[Ezra Freck]

And my dad said it was really special for him to hear that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah.

[Ezra Freck]

Because that had mean. I had really come around to accepting who I was and, in fact, loving that part of myself.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure. And just the. The. For them having. It's like now you have the weight of it as opposed to them. Right. You know what I mean? It's like they took you to a certain point, and now you're walking on your own, like, sort of metaphorically.

[Ezra Freck]

And if I had the opportunity to go back, I wouldn't, because that's how appreciative I am for the person that I've become.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, that's beautiful. They're like, he's gonna be all right. You want to go check out some books?

[Ezra Freck]

Let's do it.

[Ryan Holiday]

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on itunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. I want a new beginning for our family on January 9th. The sequel to Greenland is so master, you have to see it on the big screen.

[Toyota Trucks Narrator]

I promise no gifts to safety.

[Ezra Freck]

Starring Gerard Butler and Marina Baccarin.

[Ryan Holiday]

Oh, my God. Hang on.

[Ezra Freck]

Greenland 2 migration.

[Ryan Holiday]

Rated PG 13.