Dan Buettner (3:49)

Yes. And we have our own little, you know, sort of nonverbal communication, but for the Dan Buer podcast. And we're honored to have you on here, Andrew. You know, you're a big get these days. You're. You're a big deal. But I'm going to hope to give the audience very three succinct takeaways in number one, how to make healthy food taste delicious, because you are, after all, one of the nation's best chefs. Number two, the most surprising thing you can do if you find yourself with a problem with drugs or alcohol. And number three, what can dogs teach us? So we're going to get to all those.

Andrew Zimmern (4:25)

Sure.

Dan Buettner (4:26)

But first, I want to talk about what you're doing and what you're excited about. And just in full disclosure, I have partnered with your company, Intuitive Content, so we're doing this podcast together. But what else are you excited about? What's going on? I mean, you started Bizarre Foods and you've won Emmy awards and several James Beard Awards and been parts. You've been owner in restaurants and new shows. What are you excited about right now?

Andrew Zimmern (4:51)

I am excited about the next 10 years of my life and the messages that I think I am finally equipped to carry. And one of those messages that I can carry is how we can care for our planet and produce from it at the same time, and more specifically, our oceans. And yep, we got the book, the Blue Food Cookbook here, which very fancy. But this cookbook came out of a show that Intuitive actually produced last year called Hope in the Water. Nominated for an Emmy and for James Beard Award, and we're very proud of it.

Dan Buettner (5:27)

And the ethos is that the sea is a major source of food for human beings.

Andrew Zimmern (5:32)

Yes.

Dan Buettner (5:33)

And it can be treated better. And we're all trying to learn how to do that.

Andrew Zimmern (5:37)

Yes. And you can't just turn it off. There's 2 billion people that eat out of our ocean and a billion people who work in. You can't just turn that off. However, if you are a better caretaker of the ocean. If we take care of all of our waters, we will be able to produce more food out of it and feed more people on a planet that is going to find itself increasingly hungry as time goes on because of climate crisis, conflict and a host of other reasons.

Dan Buettner (6:07)

I know a lot of people tuning in, fans of blue zones, they know that I don't promote seafood in any of my recipes or meat of any kind in the animal products. But I will acknowledge a couple things. Number one, people in blue zones have eaten a little bit of meat, two or three servings a day. They tend to be the sort of mid chain sustainable fish like sardines and anchovies. And number two, you know, when it comes to the science, it's not clear as to whether fish is good or bad. For us, fish is an important source of omega 3 fatty acids which most Americans are deficient of. It's a good source of protein. But number two, as you know, fish increasingly is aggregating heavy metals, the pollutants that we plastics that we throw in. And we know these aren't good. So, you know, my official stance on it is you can get the nutrition you need by eating plant based sources. But I acknowledge that a lot of people love fish. They're going to keep eating it if you're going to eat it. The blue food cook block is the way to go.

Andrew Zimmern (7:07)

It's, it's fascinating that you talked about sardines and anchovies because we have two chapters of the book to fish in the that category. Small silver fish and other types that are better for you and aggregate less of those chemicals because they grow to size.

Dan Buettner (7:23)

Right.

Andrew Zimmern (7:24)

So quickly they're in cleaner waters. They're a whole bunch of different reasons why those fish are better for you than say a pelagic fish that's been swimming around in the ocean for five years.

Dan Buettner (7:35)

Let's merge what you're good at and what I'm good at. What would you say is the healthiest fish and how do you make it taste delicious?

Andrew Zimmern (7:44)

You mentioned anchovies and sardines. There is a slightly bigger fish, mackerel, that I think is so rich. I mean most fish, give or take, has roughly the same amount of protein.

Dan Buettner (7:58)

Yeah.

Andrew Zimmern (7:59)

But you know, by percentage of weight. Right.

Dan Buettner (8:00)

Mackerel's gonna be very oily.

Andrew Zimmern (8:02)

Mackerel is very oily. However, because of that, it's very Forgiving to cook. Those oils are really, really good for you. And if you eat smaller mackerel, like the Atlantic mackerel, that is chased in from deeper waters by pelagic fish, tuna sword, all those other big fish, sharks, gets pushed into North Atlantic beaches in the later stages of summer, I don't think you'd be eating a more delicious fish that's better for you. We also need as a planet to stop eating salmon, halibut, shrimp, tuna.

Dan Buettner (8:39)

Are you saying mackerel sustainable?

Andrew Zimmern (8:41)

Oh, mackerel is very sustainable, especially small. Well, king mackerel is very sustainable too. That's a tricky question for anyone who knows a lot about this subject. And the reason is there are tuna species that are extremely sustainable, small tuna, skipjack tuna, blackfin tuna, et cetera. And we all know that eating a giant bluefin tuna these days is kind of like eating a Bengal tiger, right? There's not a lot of them, and there are a lot of issues associated with eating certain fish. However, there are bad fisheries or poorly managed ones that we shouldn't be eating from. And then there are good and well managed fisheries. If you have a farm, you have gates, you have, you have fences, right? So your chickens or your cows or your asparagus comes from this piece of acreage. There are no fences underneath the water. Fish move. So consequently, it's more about the managed fisheries. I always tell people when it comes to fish, you have to eat seafood that is sustainable and regenerative, that comes from a well managed fishery. And if you can tick those boxes, eat it.

Dan Buettner (9:53)

And the Blue Food Cookbook is largely from the sustainable fishes. I mean, what are you trying to do?

Andrew Zimmern (9:57)

Every single one of them. Great. And now we all have a supercomputer in our pockets. It's a miracle at the amount of information we have at our fingertips. And so it's very easy to get a hold of Marine Stewardship Council that update every single day what fish you should be eating, what you should be staying away from. We recommend over 150 species in here that are all really, really safe to eat, assuming they're coming from a well managed fishery.

Dan Buettner (10:24)

If I'm going to eat seafood and I'm a purchaser, what am I buying that is actually going to do the ocean a favor?

Andrew Zimmern (10:31)

Small silver fish and bivalves, bivalves being clams, oysters, mussels.

Dan Buettner (10:37)

Perfect. I want to shift from seafood now to plant food. Because one of your many gifts is you're one of America's greatest chefs and your awards will attest to it. So will your popularity on tv.

Andrew Zimmern (10:50)

Well, you've eaten it, you tell people I love it.

Dan Buettner (10:55)

I'd love every time you've come over here and cooked, it's always shows up everybody else. But the average American at age 20 could live about 11 more years if they shifted from a standard American diet to largely a whole food. Plant based diet doesn't mean you can't have meat or eggs or cheese or fish once in a while. But 80, 90% whole plant based Americans struggle with how to make that taste delicious. Because at the end of the day, we are bombarded by fast food and ultra processed, highly palatable foods that are so much more appealing than what we think we can make at home.

Andrew Zimmern (11:30)

And the wrong information.

Dan Buettner (11:32)

And the wrong information. So imagine a mom, a busy mom in Iowa right now, or it can be California or New York. But the point is, don't have a lot of time, don't have a lot of experience with cooking plant based food. What advice would you give them for making plant based food taste delicious? And this could be a general guideline or it could be a specific.

Andrew Zimmern (11:53)

I think there are a handful of things that home cooks don't do well, regardless of what they're cooking that apply to the plant based whole food space probably as much as anything, if not more simply because you're not using certain techniques and certain other ingredients that people associate with happiness and sanctity. Right. However, you can put that happiness and sage tea into any food. People don't like to actually do the five minutes of homework, literally five minutes of homework that it takes to set themselves up for success when it comes to cooking in the ounce of planning, figure out what you want to eat that week. And I know that's just a horrible thing to tell people, but we all have calendars, we know, we get surprises, we get invited out to a friend's house, a kid's sports practice runs over, car runs out of gas. I mean, all of a sudden we got to pick up the dry clean a day earlier. Whatever it is we plan for the.

Dan Buettner (12:53)

Week, we make it at least through Wednesday, right?

Andrew Zimmern (12:55)

That's right. And I think dedicating a day to, to cook, or a half day or a quarter day or two hours, where you're gonna set yourself up for success by making a healthy dressing to put on a great salad, braising, roasting, baking, some things that might take a longer amount of time if we can put things into our refrigerator so that our cooking time is lessened. We all suffer from time poverty, right? I mean, that is A huge, huge issue for everyone. So if we can spend some time with our families, we need to spend time together with our families more often. Sunday is the day in my house where everybody kind of cooks together and we set ourselves up for success during the week. And I'll make two or three dressings. I mean, just this last Sunday, I poached a bunch of leeks. I made two dressings. I chop and slice vegetables. I know that sounds like a silly thing, but I can cut and chop very quickly. Members of my family cannot. They see it as tedium. They see it as a waste of time. So if I have containers in my fridge that have, you know, carrots, celery, jicama, blanched asparagus, you can then combine it to have a really, really healthy meal in about three minutes. But if you didn't have those things, it might take me 12 minutes to put it together. Might take them 45 minutes. And that's when that convenience monster that is the processed food industry grabs people because you say, eh, screw it and you get a case of the screwits and you don't move forward. So I think the biggest tip for any home cook, regardless of what you're choosing to eat, what, what meal plan you're ascribing to, is to think out what you want and buy it. And that includes fruits. It includes everything that you would want. It cuts down time at the supermarket and you're going to start to spend more time at home cooking. And at the end of the day, all of those odds and ends literally can be turned into soups, smoothies. We do something called a blended salad all the time for snacks and in between meals. That I think is probably the greatest cheat code ever invented for health and wellness.

Dan Buettner (15:14)

What's a blended salad?

Andrew Zimmern (15:16)

We take all the ingredients, either actual leftover salad or salad ingredients, and blend them in the high speed blender.

Dan Buettner (15:26)

My mother used to do that. We used to call it carp shit casserole because we all every.

Andrew Zimmern (15:31)

If I call it gazpacho, if I call, if I called it green gazpacho by Andrew Green gazpacho with, with dill and lemon, people would go nuts for it. The dill and lemon comes from, you know, that one lemon that's in the refrigerator that's getting soft, the dill is about to die within a day and all the other vegetables I've, I've poached or chopped and it's just, it's Wednesday and they're all getting a little tired and you throw that into the Blender and pulse that up, season it with oil and vinegar, a little salt and pepper, and you will have a delicious.

Dan Buettner (16:04)

Is that cold or is that a soup?

Andrew Zimmern (16:05)

Ice cold. Now you can do the same thing hot with a whole different set of food, right? Legumes and farinaceous foods, all of those cooked squashes and things like that, season that up, make a little curry sofrito, put that in there and you'd have a hot carrot and squash soup that takes on all the aromas of the desai countries with a lovely curry flavor.

Dan Buettner (16:27)

I talk about minestrone a lot. The longest lived family in the history of the world, the Meliss family, had the same minestrone soup every single day of their life. And it typically had beans, but most of it was the vegetables that were growing in the garden or vegetables that were getting a little old in the refrigerator.

Andrew Zimmern (16:46)

That's right.

Dan Buettner (16:46)

And they use. That's what minostrone soup is, essentially vegetable soup. You gave me a piece of advice. You may or may not remember a long time ago about making almost any soup or stew taste better. Do you remember what that was?

Andrew Zimmern (16:59)

What did I tell you?

Dan Buettner (17:00)

You told me to cook it very slowly.

Andrew Zimmern (17:02)

Yes. Look, everyone will tell you it's not the destination, it's the journey. But we're time poor, so we want to speed things up. And the problem with that becomes we make foods tougher. We also start to damage their own physical integrity. We both have traveled all over the world many times over. And you sit there and you eat a bean dish in a tiny little town in Central America.

Dan Buettner (17:27)

Oh my God.

Andrew Zimmern (17:27)

It blows your mind. And you want to know what's in. And the grandmother eventually tells you it's water beans, onion, their local culantro or cilantro, either one, depending on where you are. That grows better for cooking. Goes in the, you know, grows in the garden. Maybe there's a garlic clove, probably not. Maybe there's a dried chili pod, probably not. But it's two or three ingredients. And you say, well, how long has that been sitting in the bean pot? And they'll look at you and say, oh, I started last night. Yeah, that magic that comes from time T I m e keeps the beans integral. It allows the absorption of all those flavors. It allows the preservation for as many nutrients. It makes it more nutrient dense. Lower heat keeps things more nutrient dense. And by the way, you know, and, you know, speaking up for the seafood lovers, the slower you cook fish and shellfish, the better it tastes. The, the better the texture is. But more importantly, you don't release any oils into the atmosphere in your kitchen so your your house doesn't smell like you cook fish. You want to go really low and slow and have it be cooked. As the French say, au point just to the point of being done. And the slower you can get to that point, the better all your food is going to be.

Dan Buettner (18:50)

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Andrew Zimmern (21:26)

What about it? Delicious.

Dan Buettner (21:27)

How do you make tofu taste delicious? Or how do you.

Andrew Zimmern (21:29)

Oh, my God.

Dan Buettner (21:29)

How would you sear a tofu steak?

Andrew Zimmern (21:31)

Oh, my gosh, tofu. I happen to be one of those people who's obsessed with bean curd of all shapes, sizes, and textures. And so obviously start out with very firm tofu. That's number one. Second thing you want to do is you want to dry it, right? Put it on a couple pieces of paper toweling. Put a couple pieces of paper toweling on top of it. Very gentle, very gentle pressing and then flip it over. Just keep doing that for five minutes so that any residual water inside that block of tofu is, is going to be gone. And then what I do is I season it much in the same way that I would season meat or fish. Tell me some of that spices. Season. Give me a curry powder on it. Okay. At that point, you just want to make sure that you're not going to burn the seasoning that's on the outside of the tofu. If you want your tofu to have some crispness to it, season it after it's done. Getting that nice sear mark on either side. I sort of split the difference and go at it on medium. I like the flavor of the, of the cooked curry in there. But then I quickly will deglaze the pan with some liquid while the tofu.

Dan Buettner (22:43)

What kind of oil are you using?

Andrew Zimmern (22:45)

We've transferred everything in our house over to seedless oils.

Dan Buettner (22:49)

What's that? Olive oil or.

Andrew Zimmern (22:50)

We do use olive oil because I believe in the health benefits of really good cold pressed olive oil. But we're on to things like avocado oils and away from corn oils and miscellaneous vegetable oils. I have a collection of olive oil in one cupboard that's only devoted to olive oil that other people just, even in my family can't understand what you're supposed to use when. And I'm just like, I wrote it down. There's actually like, on the inside of the door, there's a key. Like it's a map to which olive oil to use for what. So when I'm not home, they're, they're doing the same things that I do to get the, the best out of that olive oil. But the wonderful part about tofu is that you can twice cook it. And by that I mean sear and then add liquid and braise. And you asked before, at the very top of this, you said, what can home Cooks do. What aren't they doing to make plant based and whole foods as delicious as they could be? And I think the biggest thing that most home cooks do, and we've talked about this before, is they don't build layers of flavor. If you took all the ingredients in your minestrone soup and just dumped them into a pot, every single ingredient from start to finish in that recipe, and put the pot onto medium and slapped a lid on it, when it was simmering, you took the lid off and you let it cook for a half an hour until it was ready. It would be good. Okay, it's going to be good. You're putting delicious vegetables in there. They have great flavor. However, if you want it to be like eye rolling, toe curling, like, everyone at the table is like, holy moly. This is the best minestrone I've ever had. You start by sweating some onions and garlic very slowly in really good olive oil. And you add the hard vegetables first.

Dan Buettner (24:33)

Let me saute.

Andrew Zimmern (24:34)

That's right. You want to get them sweaty and glassy. And you start to add layers of ingredients one by one by one. And maybe you finish only in the last three or four minutes of cooking by stirring in some thinly julienned greens, chard, spinaches, whatever, and then just stir that through just till they wilt and serve it that way because you know as well as anyone, wilted chard tastes much different than chard that's been stewed for.

Dan Buettner (24:59)

Oh, yeah, yeah, right.

Andrew Zimmern (25:01)

So you, you build those layers of flavor in something, and that's when people start to roll their eyes and, and, and pray that you will cook for them again in the next week.

Dan Buettner (25:10)

I have a. You know, I've just finished a book called the Blue Zone Kitchen One Potential. And I'm of the general impression that when it comes to what's most important to Americans, if they're going to cook at home. First of all, if you cook at home, you're going to consume about 250 fewer calories than you would if you've gone out. And if you go out, you're eating more sodium, more saturated fat, more ultra processed food. But I hear this all the time in our blue zone cities. I don't have time, number one. Number two, I can't afford it. I can't afford the organic vegetables at Whole Food Whatever. And number three, I think the most important, it's gotta be delicious. I think in general, you want to give Americans something where they can assemble it in less than 15 minutes, put it in a pot, put the lid on it or push a button and go to work and come back. I think that's actually you're going to get more people making the changes we want by making it super simple.

Andrew Zimmern (26:06)

That's a different issue. And I don't disagree with you. I do disagree with one thing. We need to make America healthier. Okay, agreed. There is, I mean that is a full on fact. So anything to get someone there, I say do it. Okay, so for those that want to assemble for 15 and hit a button, that's why God invented the slow cooker, the crock pot, the insta pot, a lot of really cool devices. Then there are people who take joy and happiness at other times during the week when they may have a little more time to do something either a little more ambitious or to add a few wrinkles into that weekly exercise. And for those people who take happiness and joy from it, something that, you know, I've heard from expert friends of yours, joyful and happy people live longer. They do, right?

Dan Buettner (26:58)

Six years.

Andrew Zimmern (26:58)

I mean, so don't take away my hobbyist moments from me. Right Is, is the battle cry of a lot of other people and I, you know, we have this conversation all the time at my house. When people come over, they're like, I don't have time to make that. I say, I always tell them, yes, you do. Find the right recipe where you can walk away from it at various stages, still build in layers and you're going to do it on a Sunday, as I describe, where you're going to do certain things to set yourself right, like a great pot of beans. By all means, do it. Your vision or mine, I think you can split the difference and come up with somebody. Several days a week is hitting a button after 15 prep and one or two days a week is able to get some joy from the, from the love of communing with friends or family and cooking together.

Dan Buettner (27:48)

You know, even at our age 60 or so, you can gain an extra 6 years of life expectancy if you move towards a whole food plant based diet over eating a standard American diet. So to your point about you don't have time not to cook when you average out an extra six years of life expectancy over the 20 or 30 years we can each expect to live, it adds up to about two hours a day. In other words, if we want it to cook healthy, it gives us an extra two hours a day to do whatever we want, whether it's the hobby and the layering and the complexity, which I love. And you're good at And I'm not. Or if it's the Dan Buettner put it in a pot.

Andrew Zimmern (28:33)

I'll go you a step further. You have to be talking about a category of foods for which time is not necessarily the guiding principle for cooking. And by that, I mean if you have ancient grains in your rice steamer, right? And you are doing one or two vegetable dishes or a big, hearty bowl of vegetable soup, you're gonna have with a slice of sourdough bread, right? Those things do not take the time that cooking a lot of other foods do. That requires proteins to be broken down to become tender. Right?

Dan Buettner (29:11)

Right.

Andrew Zimmern (29:11)

Yes. Beans from scratch take a while to cook. Right. But there are lots of types of beans that will spend overnight in my refrigerator in a pot of water, and then when I go to cook them, take 90 minutes or less to cook. So there's lots of different things that we can do that fall into the categories of foods that we want to be eating more of just being a little more mindful about what we're doing and how we're doing it. The what you've covered, the how is sort of the expertise of culinarians and.

Dan Buettner (29:42)

The sublime as well.

Andrew Zimmern (29:43)

And I would say that flavor fatigue is the thing that makes most people start a really healthy food program.

Dan Buettner (29:50)

That's a really good point.

Andrew Zimmern (29:51)

And then they abandon it. And so when I'm talking to folks, I'm also trying to get them to stick with whatever new choices they're making in their life. And I'll give you a really quick example. If I make a bowl of. Of red lentils for you, right? And you huck all the ingredients into a pot, and they're ready in under 30 minutes, because red lentils cook extremely quickly, it's going to be good. But if you sweat some onions and garlic, and you add a little bit of your favorite seasonings, let's say curry powder, and grate a little ginger, and you mince garlic to stir in at the end with a little bit of lime juice. And I add those lentils in and some vegetable stock or water. And then I season at the end with a little bit of raw garlic and lime to add another layer of garlic flavor in there. And I put it down in front of you. You're gonna sit there and go, holy moly. Right?

Dan Buettner (30:43)

Toes are gonna curl, eyes are gonna roll.

Andrew Zimmern (30:45)

That is. That is the difference. And I bet my version only takes about a minute or two longer than someone else's. Huck it all together. In version food, you are what you eat. We swim in it, we need it to survive. Right. And so the more information and the more time we can spend learning about it, I think is something that is not only needed, I think it's necessary.

Dan Buettner (31:10)

Andrew Zimmert, Blue Food Cookbook, multiple Emmy award winning and James Beard award winning chef. I could sit at the altar of Andrew Zimmern for hours and just take it in.

Andrew Zimmern (31:22)

Please.

Dan Buettner (31:23)

You know, I'm just a journalist.

Andrew Zimmern (31:25)

I wanted your show, but I was. I'm so ready to zing you. I'm just. I'm just a journalist. Dan Buettner, humble journalist.

Dan Buettner (31:33)

I am.

Andrew Zimmern (31:34)

I know you. I know you're. You're not. If nothing, you are that.

Dan Buettner (31:37)

No, I'm. Seriously, I mean, we've been friends for 30 years and I, I knew you, I met you Gail Whitaker's party a long time ago. I instantly liked him. People who have the opportunity to meet Andrew, he's enormously charming. He's a tsunami of charm. I'm going to tell a story and then I'm going to give you a few statistics.

Andrew Zimmern (31:57)

Yep.

Dan Buettner (31:58)

First, the story. So I liked you immediately. And we were talking ideas and you invited me for an afternoon drive on a school day. And I'm like, well, I don't normally do that on school day, but I like Andrews. So we got whatever kind of wreck car you were driving at the time and drove to Hazleton. I didn't exactly know what the hell I was going there for, but I sat in the audience and you addressed.

Andrew Zimmern (32:20)

Well, you were really curious about the whole sober thing. And I think at the time I was four or five years sober.

Dan Buettner (32:26)

That's right.

Andrew Zimmern (32:27)

I said, do you want to come up with me to Hazelden on Wednesday night? I'm telling my story there. And you did hesitate for a second, but then you said yes. And it was an old postal van that didn't go over 35 miles an hour. It wasn't even, not even street legal, illegal to take on the highway. But there we were, chugging along. If anything had happened, think of what. The world would have lost that back. That was, that was 30 years ago. But anyway, continue.

Dan Buettner (32:54)

That was amazing. You're just a normal dude. You hadn't, you hadn't had your Bizarre Foods TV series and, and became the celebrity you are. And you got up and you told this story of, of getting addicted to heroin in Tahiti, I believe. And you were a chef at one of the best restaurants in New York City. And the drug dependency or addiction spirit you so far down that you ended up living in a blown out basement and you had to sleeping on the floor, you had to put like Comet or something, some other brain or something around you so the rats didn't chew at you at night. And you would just put a hand outside this basement window and your heroin deal would put you take a $20 bill.

Andrew Zimmern (33:46)

And it's, those were actually the last two places that I lived. But yes, that is, that is, that is factually correct.

Dan Buettner (33:54)

And you, you have not only gotten yourself out of this, that really way down there, near death, lost your friends, your family cut you off, lost your job, had no money, and now you're this enormously successful and famous and a lovable guy. And I want to hear how you get out of it. But before we go to that, I'd like to underscore how important it is to everybody listening to us here. You can lose between 10 and 50 years of life expectancy with a drug addiction. 10 to 50 years. And for the average American, for life expectancy in America, we lose 1.6 years of life expectancy because of premature death from alcohol and drug addiction. To put that in perspective, we only lose 1.5 years of life expectancy to hypertension, high blood pressure, and only 1.3 years to obesity. So we're talking about a topic that, when it comes to longevity, and a lot of people tune into this podcast to hear about longevity, drug addiction, alcohol abuse are far more powerful.

Andrew Zimmern (35:04)

I think, I think the numbers are bigger than that. And, and, and here's why. Because like hunger statistics, addiction statistics, you don't have the populations of, of quote, unquote real alcoholics and addicts jumping up and down saying, interview me, interview me. We also have a lot of mixed, and, and I'm something of an expert on this, we also have a lot of people who pass and the cause of death is car accident, heart attack, right. Stroke, when the actual cause of death is alcoholism or drug addiction. I spend my life with recovering people, but I also spend my life with people who never make it. When I got to treatment, one of the counselors, you know, looked at the group of 24 of us in this room and said, the chances are only one of you is going to make it to 10 years sober.

Dan Buettner (35:50)

One out of 24.

Andrew Zimmern (35:51)

Yeah, I've heard the numbers are even, are even bigger. But I do know one thing to be true. Recovery is there for everybody who wants it enough. The problem is that we have a disease of body, mind and spirit, one of whose components is, it tells us the disease, tells us we don't have a disease. If you have a broken leg, your brain tells you, oh, my God, my leg is broken. Somebody get me to the hospital. The pain may make you pass out, but the broken leg may not necessarily kill you that day. But with alcoholism, well, any substance use disorder, drugs, alcohol, whatever, it is a life and death issue that we are living every single day for as long as we're using, and yet we never go and do something about it until enough bad things happen that we are willing and it's different for everybody to actually do something.

Dan Buettner (36:45)

I want to hear about you. How did it get that bad for you?

Andrew Zimmern (36:48)

My alcoholism and drug addiction took me to an abandoned building where I stole every day to support my habits. Where I. Were you living with drugs? No. I had stopped my heroin use three years before I sobered up because the problem had to be hard drugs, right? I mean, what's wrong with booze? However, for me personally, the alcohol was way more damaged. I was uncontrollable on alcohol. When I was doing speedballs and eating pills and smoking weed and drinking a little bit, I was able to hold down a job. The minute I went exclusively alcohol, everything just exploded in my life in the worst way possible. I became a complete and total user of people and taker of things. There was no one I wouldn't lie to, wouldn't steal from, and there was nothing I wouldn't do to get the money that I needed to either feed myself or support my habit. And when I say nothing, people always look at me and they say, come on, nothing. So here's some of the things that I did. Stole from my godmother, stole from all my friends. My parents thought I was dead. So imagine the horrific nature of being alive and knowing that your parents think you're dead. Right? I mean, that is, to me, a sign of such a degraded moral compass and such an inability to comprehend the reality of your own existence, of your own life, that you're willing to put up with that, medicate against feeling those feelings, combination thereof. At one point, I found, and anyone who lived in New York in the. In the 80s, especially the late 80s, will remember the club area. And Area was great. And I went there when I was doing well, and then when I was not doing well. Area was one of the few big nightclub environments where people would come out of there late at night really, really, really messed up. And if you turned left, you hit the cross street. You know, lots of cabs and limos and all the rest of that. If you went right, you kind of scooted down into a darker corner of Tribeca. But there was an alley behind area. And I would just stand inside that alley. And if someone in a three piece suit came walking out, stumbling, right, it was really easy to trip them, put them down on the ground, grab their wallet, grab their watch, hit the subway. I was downtown in Alphabet City and I would hock whatever they had in their pockets and on their wrists for whatever it was that I needed with my old junk dealers, right? Then circumstantially, I became so sick in my disease, I actually couldn't even roll guys, you know, put them down on the ground, roll them, take their wallets. So I couldn't even get up there. And that was the last three or four months before I actually decided to kill myself. And my eyes are tearing up. Not because I'm embarrassed about it. I just. It's like it's another. It was another person. That's how much. I mean, look, I'm 34 and a half years sober. I mean, that is a big. There's a lot of time, right? And I've worked pretty hard at changing my life. Talk about moral failings. People think alcoholism and drug addiction are moral failings. They're not. They're diseases. You know, ask any, ask any doctor or psychiatrist. I mean, these are, these are diseases. The ama, all the different Alphabet organizations, you know, will tell you these are very, very serious diseases. We struggle so much with the concept of suicide. I just thought I failed at life. And I drank a warm bottle of pop off vodka and ate a fistful of barbiturates, plenty to do the job, and woke up, you know what? We've put together about a day and a half later. And I was very sick, but I wasn't dead. And I really thought I had gone to hell. It reminded me of that Bill Murray movie, Groundhog Day, because I remember just going goodbye in this one room apartment in the San. One room hotel or the San Pedro hotel, flophouse hotel that doesn't exist anymore. And I woke up in the same place. And I was like, this has to be like hell or purgatory. I'm literally in the same place. And then I realized I wasn't dead. And at that moment I did the one thing that I had never done in my entire. And you know me, I've never let facts stand in the way of telling a good story. But this is, you know, my lips to God's ears. I had never ever, ever, ever said to anyone, I don't know how to do that. Can you help Me when I got into the sailboat at age 12 in summer camp and the counselor said, well, let's start. Like, let's just start sailing. Why? You know everything about this boat. Yes, I knew everything about everything. Right. Still one of my bigger character defects. But if I had never learned the sentence, can you help me? I would not be sitting here today because that's.

Dan Buettner (41:52)

Can you help me?

Andrew Zimmern (41:54)

That is the root.

Dan Buettner (41:55)

Who did you say that to?

Andrew Zimmern (41:56)

I put a quarter in the phone and called my friend Clark and said, can you come get me? I need help. And then later on, other versions of that same can you help me? I had never asked for help before.

Dan Buettner (42:12)

You have gone on to be incredibly successful. A lot of people look up to you. You give a lot back to your community. Is your success somehow rooted in that failure? Or was. Was that failure just a pothole on your roll decision?

Andrew Zimmern (42:28)

Oh, no, no, no. That failure is who I am.

Dan Buettner (42:30)

Unpack that. Where does your success track to that failure?

Andrew Zimmern (42:35)

My lowest moments in my life are who I am, just as much as some of the achievements in my life are the exact opposite. Did I make some of my luck? Sure. But when you start learning that you're able to achieve more playing a team sport than thinking you're all that in a bag of chips, all of a sudden, great things come to happen. When you start investing in the loss and start doing things because it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether or not you're gonna get something from it, all of a sudden you realize, days, weeks, months later, oh, my God, I got gifts that I never could have gotten any other way. When people start to respect you and you start to rebuild some esteem and start to have some integrity. That took me four or five years of sobriety just to get people to start to warm to me a little bit as a human being. And I had done enough things to make them say, oh, this dude's okay. Then guess what? You get asked to join stuff. Hey, wanna come with us to the movies? Wow. No one's asked me that in 15 years. All of a sudden, people are asking me to go to their house. All of a sudden, the lady who owns the gym that I go to says, I got a friend who's having a dinner party tonight. Wanna join? And that was the night that I met you. But I was four years sober, four and a half years sober at that point. And then you keep going and you keep kind of working on yourself. It's an inside job. You start working on yourself, and you become more attractive to other people. And as I tell folks in the media business, then you start to be able to have something to say.

Dan Buettner (44:11)

I want to bring this back because a lot of people listening to this show to get actionable advice. There's a lot of people out there struggling with alcohol and with drugs. They may not own up to it yet, but they are. And the two questions I have are, number one, what is the most important thing that they do right now? And number two, how is that hardship going to metabolize into a blessing later on based on your experience?

Andrew Zimmern (44:39)

Super easy. I tell people this. I just told someone this. I spent an hour on the phone with someone who I used to sponsor in a 12 step program who had been drinking, called me while I was on my way up here and he did. I said, why did you call me? And he said, because you always said the first thing that you have to do is call someone and ask for help. So I'm calling you and asking for help. And that's what I would tell anyone. If you pick up the phone and call. And sometimes it's easier to call a friend who's not really that close to you. Sometimes it's easier to go and talk to a teacher or a clergyman or a friend of a friend or the HR person at work, right? I've had people in big companies who I've said, walk your ass, Hang up the phone, walk downstairs and you call me back on your cell. When you're sitting in the HR person's office with the HR person, you know, like, have some accountability. It's going to take you. How long will it take you to get down there? Five minutes, Go right? You go to that HR person, you go to that social worker, you go to that friend and you just say, I don't know what to do, I need help. And the first thing they're going to say is, what's wrong? Human beings are wired, hardwired to help other human beings. And the minute you say, I think I have a problem with drugs or alcohol or I have a problem with drugs or alcohol, or I called someone about my drug and alcohol program and they told me to do the. It's going to start a sequence of events in which you allow other choices to make. But you were then on the road to recovery and you're not on the road to using it.

Dan Buettner (46:09)

It's actionable and it's easy to do. Do everybody got a cell phone?

Andrew Zimmern (46:12)

It ain't easy, but it's very, very simple.

Dan Buettner (46:15)

Yeah. So just to offer a ray of hope, this idea that this enormous curse of an addiction can be metabolized into.

Andrew Zimmern (46:25)

A blessing, greatest factor of my life.

Dan Buettner (46:27)

Let's just say Dan Buhner right now, and it's not the case, but I'm addicted to cocaine and I'm getting drunk every day and I can't get out of this thing. And, and I want to see a successful Dan Buettner in five years. But how does that thought process go?

Andrew Zimmern (46:42)

You call me because I'm your friend and you know I'm sober. You know I'll do anything for you. And you say I'm in trouble. I've kept this horrible secret. We get you help. We get you, you know, into treatment, maybe outpatient, maybe I just take you to meetings and something clicks and you stay sober and you do the work in that 12 step group necessary to actually move from being clean to being sober. And there is a difference. Right? So you're now sober. One, two, three. Your early sobriety. Right. First couple years, the fog has cleared, takes about two, three years.

Dan Buettner (47:16)

Wow.

Andrew Zimmern (47:16)

You're now back to being Dan. You don't feel the daily oppression every morning of using. You're not having, using thoughts. Occasionally you have a using idea or the, the, the, some using element runs through your mind. But you, the, the phenomenon of craving drugs and alcohol has disappeared because you're actually doing the daily work at that point and probably a lot earlier, but guaranteed by that point, you now have the most powerful tool in the human arsenal to help another human being. And my entire sobriety and in fact my happiness and everything good that I have in my life is predicated on the concept of service work.

Dan Buettner (48:02)

Wow.

Andrew Zimmern (48:03)

I believe as human beings, one of the things that we have gotten away from is the ability on a regular basis to help another human being. A hundred years ago, when we lived in a different era, and I'm not asking for the horse and buggy to come back, I'm just pointing this out. Historically and sociologically, we constantly needed to ask for help with other people. There was no washing machine repairman. You know, there were people in the neighborhood who were handy. You didn't have babysitters. The neighbors watched each other's kids because the next night it was your turn. Right? And on and on and on. Those little moments, I believe, are service work as well. You're being of service to your family, your community and those around you. The most important people in the world. As we have sped up our global society and as we have put more and more emphasis on collecting things and toys and money and status. We have gotten away from helping other people. There is nothing that gets me out of my negative headspace, whatever it is more efficiently than helping another human being. That hour that I spent on that phone with that young man today, I will ride that into tomorrow afternoon. I'm good for another 24 hours. I'm happy. I'm happy cause I spent time helping. I think I made a difference in someone's life and I don't think there's a better use of our time on planet Earth than that.

Dan Buettner (49:34)

I spent the last 25 years identifying places around the world where people live the longest, so called blue zones and where people are actually making it to 100 at the highest rate. It's not because they're trying to, it's because they live in an environment where health ensues or health comes naturally. And perhaps one of the most important characteristics of a healthy environment is clean air. In fact, if you live in a place where air is the worst, it can shave as much as five years off your life. That's why I've been paying attention to Air Doctor. Air Doctor uses medical grade filtration to capture ultra fine particles and airborne pollutants that many purifiers miss. And I like it that it actually monitors your air quality in real time and adjusts automatically. We talk a lot about food, movement and connection when it comes to longevity, but the air you breathe is an important ingredient too. If creating a healthier home is a priority for you, Air Doctor is worth a look. Go to airdoctorpro.com and use the promo code LIVEBETTERFORSAVINGS. Head to airdoctorPro.com and use the promo code live. Better to get up to $300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a 3 year warranty. An $84 value free. Get this exclusive podcast only offer now at airdoctorpro.com that's a I R-O C T O R P R O.com using the promo code livebetter I always thought winter is the most revealing season. Things slow down, the noise fades, and you're given space to think about what really matters. For me, that reset usually starts at my lake house in Wisconsin. Snow on the ground, coffee on the stove, long walks where the only sound is the ice shifting along the shore. It's where I go to begin again. When I travel later in the season, though, it's comforting to know my home isn't sitting empty. By hosting it on Airbnb, I get to offer someone else that same pause, that same feeling of a fresh beginning. Hosting fits easily into my life. It's simple, meaningful, and it helps carry that spirit of renewal and connection forward. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host imagine the listener out there right now, people listening to us. What advice do you give them about how to get service into their life so that they can take the focus off their own everyday pains? And, yes, how. But how do you actually do it?

Andrew Zimmern (52:24)

Do three things a day for another person, and everyone is obsessed with the grand gesture. I mean, you ask the question knowing that there are people out there who are like, oh, my gosh, I can't. How do I get someone to call me and ask for help? Well, you can't, right? But what you can do if you work in a big office is when you're walking out of the office that night, push a bunch of chairs in, stick a cookie on some. I know this sounds so saccharine. It's like a Hallmark garden. Stick a cookie on some. Or a bowl of minestrone soup on someone's desk. The biggest one that I have all the time that I use for certain people is, call your mom and tell her that you love her. That's it. And why wouldn't you do that three times a day? And I have people, guys I mentor in 12 step programs look at me and say, you're out of your fucking mind. And you want to know what I say to them? I said, you know something? I may be, but my mother never tires of hearing me call her and say, I love her. When I called my dad early on, you may remember this story. Cause I know I told you this 30, 25 years ago. I would call my dad when he was alive, just. And he'd be like, why are you calling me? It's not. Wednesday was our day to catch up. And he'd be like, why are you calling me? It's Saturday. I'm like, I miss you, dad. Just wanted to tell you I love you. His response to me was, call me Wednesday, man. Like, he was such a dude that way. Like, it was. He was so out of touch with his own emotions. That was his stuff. I got my thing out of it by calling him and saying, I love you. My mom, on the other hand, if I called her three times a day, morning, afternoon, and evening, and she'd be like, oh, you are so sweet. I love you too, honey.

Dan Buettner (54:03)

But is the point of the gesture the recipient, or is the point of the gesture Itself.

Andrew Zimmern (54:09)

The point is the gesture itself to get out of your own head, you are doing something for another human being. There are some very famous mentors of mine who often talk about the idea that the service work we do is not about the redemption of the giver. It is about the resurrection of the recipient. Right? And what I always tell them is I say, unless you're trying to become a better human being, if you need to put service work into your life because you have no place where it's happening. You don't volunteer anywhere. You don't do something to give back. Maybe it's joining an organization. That's one of the things that we miss. In a country that used to be 100% churched, didn't matter whether you went to synagogues, mosques, or other houses and worships. We used to all be churched in some way. We had a place where service work was a regular part of our lifestyle. We've gotten so far away from that. I think doing service work things for other human beings is of such vital importance to us. I was scared coming and talking to you today, and you're a friend of mine, and I was. I was scared. I mean, seriously, I'm waiting to hear why. Well, I mean, I. I gotta tell you, I'm. I'm your fat friend that eats bacon, right? You've never judged me for that, ever.

Dan Buettner (55:35)

Not at all, ever.

Andrew Zimmern (55:37)

You've never, never once judged me. That's one of the things that I love about you, but you constantly remind me with your presence. You're sitting, citing those facts and figures. I want to run right out and throw my cheese away. I don't know why. Why am I getting emotional? Why am I getting emotional? Anyway, the point is, I was scared to come here and talk to you about some of those things. And one of the things that I thought of in the car was, wow, you know, physically, I am nowhere near being at peak. I mean, it's hard to be as mentally and spiritually together as I know that I am and be as physically ignorant. And I guess I'm emotional because saying that is sort of my way of holding myself to maybe doing something else about it. So thank you for that inspiration. Thank you for asking me those questions and providing me the opportunity to do a little more introspection about myself. I think the most valuable thing that we have as human beings is the opportunity every day to get people better at something. If we're not moving forward, we're sliding backwards into a place we don't want to be. And I think we always have to be moving forward.

Dan Buettner (57:04)

I admire you more than you know. You possess this absolutely intoxicating charisma. And, and I see you around your. The people.

Andrew Zimmern (57:15)

Nice choice of words.

Dan Buettner (57:16)

And I see you on TV and I've asked myself, does was Andrew born with this gift? Or indeed might it have been the enormous hardship he went through, the time he spent in the whale's belly in that basement, you know, and rolling guys in the alley for $20. It makes me think about two things. Number one, it makes me think about the value of hardship. And we're all so afraid of difficulty and of discomfort and we run away from it. And indeed there might be really strong lessons, but the other one is service. Our mutual friend Gail Winager, she called me up recently and she said, you know what? Andrew's doing all these things to help fight hunger. And of course I, you know, I get your emails once in a while and I look at all these not for profit organization, these constantly. The guy behind the fundraiser trying to get people to come out and do good and I feel like, wow, I can learn something from that. But to tell us, despite all of your amazing gifts, that the silver bullet is service. I think that is a really, really important point for people to hear and to understand and to know that that may be their salvation.

Andrew Zimmern (58:30)

I know I sort of built it in for myself to make sure that I go to bed tonight feeling pretty good too. Once you get into the habit of doing it, it becomes something that is self fulfilling every single day and becomes easier and easier and easier to manage. Just like exercise, just like changing your diet after you've been doing it for a little while, it's just your new normal. Not only is it a design for living that really works, I am proof positive of it all. We have our own stories. Other people may have different experiences, but I can tell you right now, my life changed when I started thinking about other people every once in a while. Then it became every day for a little bit. Then it became on a regular basis within each day. And now I have practices within my day that allow me to get out of my own head by, by working with others. And it is the, it is the greatest joy of my life. I will tell you something else. When I'm dead, there are going to be some really interesting articles in newspapers and magazines about me. My kids will divide up my possessions, my will will take care of the rest of that kind of stuff. People will say nice things about me probably into the second week and then it'll all be gone. That cycle will be over. All you have to look around is at how most people pass in this world. But the people that we still talk about, sometimes a thousand years after they're gone are the people who, as Maya Angelou once pointed out, so famously made them feel better. Made them feel better. I will not be remembered so much for the things that I did or any work that I did as the people who will say, yeah, that guy took time and sat at the end of my bed and helped me, and he's gonna tell or she is gonna tell their children, and it's going to live on in a cycle. That's incredible. You know, my sponsor, when he passed away, we had a memorial for him about a month later. And person after person got up. I'm talking about judges, congressmen. I mean, you could not have put more people into this. They did it at a country club because they needed a place with big enough rooms last summer to accommodate this insane group of people who had no idea that Jim had touched their lives. And they talked about him in a way that blew my mind. Now, he was a recovering attorney, so he would practice a little bit of law, just enough until he died to pay his bills. That was it. And he had very few bills. He did not live extravagantly, and he spent every waking hour of his day doing things for other people. Now he's the extreme, and he did that for pretty much the last 25, 30 years of his life. The number of people that he touched, that man, he will never be forgotten. Not because of the things that he did or the things that he accumulated, but because of the way he lived his life. That's why he was my role model.

Dan Buettner (61:36)

And made people feel. Feel good. You know, Another person I know that you helped. It ties back to our. Our substance abuse topic was Anthony Bourdain. And there was recently another chef who just. Celebrity chef who died of. Yes. And you. You tried to interview and intervene in both of their lives.

Andrew Zimmern (61:59)

Well, I didn't try to intervene in Tony's because he.

Dan Buettner (62:02)

Anthony Bourdain.

Andrew Zimmern (62:03)

Yeah, He.

Dan Buettner (62:04)

Those in the. No, calm.

Andrew Zimmern (62:05)

Tony, he had his. You know, he stopped doing a lot of things that he knew weren't good for him, but he was always curious about my lifestyle because we had a different way of doing the stuff that we did. A great man and most magnetic human being I've ever met in my life. Anne was someone who was a friend of mine. Her death impacted me in a very, very profound way.

Dan Buettner (62:29)

You better say who she is.

Andrew Zimmern (62:31)

Yes. Anne Burrell, who hosted world cooks famous 20 year career on Food Network, a colleague of mine, a friend of mine. I am in a unique position because I knew both of them, Tony, very, very well and well enough. And I will tell you, we have no idea what's going on with other human beings. No idea. If you just look at both of their stories, especially when you look at both of their passings, like when it actually happened, they were with the people they loved as much as they loved anyone in their whole lives, knowing that the person they loved so much would be the one to discover them. And yet they took their own life. Imagine how much pain. My prayer for both of them is that they're finally at peace. It is a very. And as a suicide survivor, I have yet again, another insight into that, because I was at that jumping off place and mine was not a pretend attempt. Mine was not a, oh, I'm going to pop a Quaalude and drink a beer and hope I die. I mean, you know, it was a fistful of barbiturates and I knew what I was doing. I can only tell you that we don't know enough to presuppose in anyone's life what's going on. And I think that's why the lesson there for the people who love other people, and I hope that everyone listening loves someone else, is that we actually are earnest when we ask them, how are you doing?

Dan Buettner (64:03)

So you have Anthony Bourdain, Ann, and you, all three of you, charismatic, all three of you, great communicators, all three of you great chefs, all three of you substance addicts, all three of you.

Andrew Zimmern (64:16)

At different times, at different times.

Dan Buettner (64:17)

And all three of you attempt suicide. Those two are dead. And you're here, albeit struggling every day, but outwardly a success. How are you different?

Andrew Zimmern (64:29)

Small number of data points. And I've never had it put to me so directly. It feels awkward talking, you know, putting myself in contrast to two friends of mine who are no longer with us. My awkwardness, not yours. But the fact of the matter is that I got a second chance in life and jumped all over it. When I was thrown a life jacket a thousand times, I tossed it back into the person in the boat and said, I don't like the color orange. A thousand times when I came to in the San Pedro hotel, I called someone and said, please throw me a life jacket. I do not know what their history was with that concept, but I think the difference maker is that people who ask for help get it. That people who are vulnerable and at some point, get the opportunity. I was blessed with that opportunity. My fear is that Tony or Ann maybe never thought they had that opportunity. Maybe they did, but it didn't work out for them. I don't know. But it's heartbreaking for me as someone. Let me tell you something. I talked to you about service before. Here's a dirty secret. When I was in treatment at Hazelden, there was a guy named Chuck. Chuck pointed out to me on the wall where they have the 12 steps, that there's a hidden promise in the step 12. In step 12, it says, having had, past tense, a spiritual experience as the result of these steps. And it goes on because I was so concerned I wouldn't have the spiritual experience sufficient to recover from alcoholism and drug addiction. And he looked at me and he said, you're an idiot. You go and do that, and you will have a spiritual experience sufficient to recover from alcoholism. He pointed that out to me. I stayed sober. He, five months later, got drunk and drove the wrong. Up an off ramp, killed himself, and in the other car killed a woman and a child.

Dan Buettner (66:32)

Oh, that's horrible.

Andrew Zimmern (66:33)

Okay, he's dead. And other people are dead because he drank. I didn't. Why am I alive? This is what I asked myself. And that person who carried that message to me, the one that saved my life, by the way, the 12 step is also about service work, right? Carrying the message to other alcoholics. So when I'm engaged in that aspect of service work, when it comes to people who are addicts and alcoholics, where I put in about half of my service time, I always ask myself that question, why me? And I am always reminded by the people who I've shared that with who told me it was you. Because you got put in a position to embrace this and to go help other people. Don't overthink it. Just do it.

Dan Buettner (67:15)

Some people are probably wondering, why is Dan Buettner talking about recovery and substance abuse? And the reason is because when it comes to life expectancy, we lose more years of life because of drug and alcohol abuse than we do because of obesity. And everybody's focused on obesity. And the big takeaways I'm getting from listening to you is if you think you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, call somebody, number one. Number two, realize that the hardship you're going through right now is gonna be a blessing in the future. And number three, remember, service. Service is probably the biggest anecdote to getting through the day to day challenges. If I just had to sum up the last 40 minutes to talk with you. And this is unbelievably powerful. It's more important than rapamycin or metformin or any of these other anti Aging no STR that people talk about and thrives an $83 billion industry. And it's a perfect example of these things we don't really pay enough attention to when it comes to the topic of longevity or the things that really make a difference in not only the number of years we're going to live, but how good those years are. And I just can't thank you enough for being vulnerable. And I regard it as a huge gift. And I'm sure a lot of the people listening are feel like it's a gift, too.

Andrew Zimmern (68:39)

I love you and I love the people out there. And I wish there wasn't so much hurt in the world, honestly. But there is. So.

Dan Buettner (68:45)

Yeah. And I think it's.

Andrew Zimmern (68:46)

We got to do something about getting.

Dan Buettner (68:47)

Worse under our nose. I have one final question. You and I had a conversation. I know you gotten quite popular for a speech you do about what dogs can teach us. I think that's brilliant.

Andrew Zimmern (68:58)

Yeah.

Dan Buettner (68:59)

But can you sum that up? And then I have a gift for you.

Andrew Zimmern (69:01)

Brene Brown, who I. I adore, once said to me, and it was written in her books. We were having a conversation down in Texas at South by Southwest, and I had fanboyed all around her, and we wound up sharing some words and we were talking about the secret to happiness being empathy. And I left that conversation and I'm just like, oh, my God. I was so awestruck to be in conversation with her that I didn't ask the most obvious question, which is, oh, my God, happiness. I can wrap my arms around that as a concept. It's a hard word, but I can wrap myself around. How the hell do you become more empathic? I mean, that's the challenge. Okay. You just told me the key to happiness is become more proficient with empathy and to grow your capacity for empathy. And that's the secret. But I don't. That's now more confusing to me. I started talking. I asked for help. I asked a lot of people about this. And I wound up coming up with this idea, which is be the dog. The worst people in the world. Pick em. Hannibal Lecter comes home from a day at the office. He's killed a bunch of people, chopped them up into little bits. Sits down on the couch, his dog. I imagine a Pekingese jumps up in his lap, and he feeds it a nice piece of raw liver. Hopefully not somebody Else's but chicken liver or fish liver and. But the dog like licks his hand and loves him and snuggles up and the dog just lays in his lap. The dog just is with him. The dog doesn't expect anything. The dog just lays in his lap. I had a very well known child psychologist tell me when my son was 4 or 5 years old and going crazy in his room, destroying things. Don't tell him to stop. Don't do anything. Just go into the room and lay down next to where he is. Just be with him. And all of a sudden all the dots connected and I was like. And I looked at him and I said, you want me to be the dog? And he's like, excuse me. And I explained to him all this other stuff and I said, the dog is just pure empathy. The dog just wants to be with you. He's like, exactly. Just be the dog. Don't start to operationalize with your kid before you've co regulated with them. The, the way to co regulate with another human being is just to sit there with them. Eventually, you know, someone says, why are you just sitting there? You look like you're having a tough time. I'm just, I'm here.

Dan Buettner (71:35)

The legendary, the legendary mistake men make is they try to fix things, of course. And if we could just hold space, I guess to use your term, be the dog.

Andrew Zimmern (71:44)

Be the dog. Be the dog.

Dan Buettner (71:46)

That's relationship advice.

Andrew Zimmern (71:49)

Actually, I use an example from real life with my ex wife about that where. And I immediately said to her, while she was losing her mind, did you ask the security guy at the office building near where she worked? And she looked at me, she's like, of course I did. I don't need you to tell me what to do. I already called it. In fact, they have my phone. I'm gonna get it tomorrow. I just wanted my best friend. I just wanted to vent. I just want. And I realized, oh my gosh, I need to be the dog everywhere in my life. So yeah, be the dog.

Dan Buettner (72:18)

I love this. So we began with relationship advice number one, be funny and learn how to cook. And we end with relationship advice. Be the dog. 100%. I love that.

Andrew Zimmern (72:28)

I mean, then you got to be a good kisser too.

Dan Buettner (72:31)

Well, you know, I probably won't give you a kiss here, but I will say thank you and, and throw me that shirt, would you? We, we have an award here on, on the Dan Buford podcast. Yes, it's the extra points for vulnerability. And, and we only give this. Well, we actually give it to everybody, but we really only give it to our favorite guests.

Andrew Zimmern (72:52)

That's good. I'm very competitive. I love that I've earned this shirt.

Dan Buettner (72:57)

That is a story that earns you shirt.

Andrew Zimmern (72:59)

I love this. I love this. Extra points for vulnerability. By the way, lessons for lifetime. Everyone should get extra points for vulnerability. It's a good one.

Dan Buettner (73:09)

Thank you, Andrew. We love you.

Andrew Zimmern (73:10)

Love you, too.