Cory Richards Reveals How Pain Shapes Purpose

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Buettner Podcast

Episode: Cory Richards Reveals How Pain Shapes Purpose

Date: October 16, 2025

Host: Dan Buettner
Guest: Cory Richards, National Geographic photographer, writer, speaker

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Overview

This episode is a deeply personal and candid conversation between Dan Buettner and his friend and collaborator, Cory Richards. Through raw vulnerability and honest storytelling, Cory reflects on how pain, trauma, and mental health struggles can be transformed into purpose, creativity, and deeper human connection. The discussion explores happiness, the paradoxes of suffering and success, the components of well-being discovered in Blue Zones and beyond, and simple daily practices for a more meaningful life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cory’s Background and Early Vulnerability

• [00:21] Dan introduces Cory as an artistic powerhouse shaped by deep struggle and pain. Cory’s openness about mental health issues and vulnerability was foundational to their collaboration.
  • “Within 15 minutes, you'd told me that you'd been depressed, that you'd been bipolar. And I was just bowled over by the vulnerability.” – Dan [01:20]

Accomplishments & The Irony of Success

• [05:12] Cory reflects on his career highlights (Everest climbs, National Geographic covers, Oxford artist residency), noting the motivation often sprang from a place of pain.
• [07:01] Cory recounts the iconic National Geographic cover selfie taken after surviving an avalanche:

  “It's my face covered in ice and an expression...trying to grapple with nearly dying.” [07:10]

Trauma, Mental Health, and the Power of Connection

• [09:06] Cory discusses being diagnosed bipolar at 14, with cyclical highs and lows:
  • “It is a cluster of behaviors that are characterized by very high highs and very low lows...you're a polar explorer.” [13:56]
• Cory shares how depression felt immobilizing (“sat on the edge of my bed for two hours and just stared.” [15:35]) and how the mere presence of caring people and meaningful conversation could lift the sadness, even if temporarily.
• “The opposite of depression is not happiness. It’s connection...I am no longer immersed in my own pain.” – Cory [17:21]

Lessons from Blue Zones & Happiness Research

• [20:16] Cory and Dan discuss insights from photographing and researching places like Singapore and Denmark:
  • Singapore: Financial security and home ownership contribute to collective happiness by ensuring safety and social cohesion. “When we feel safe...we're no longer in survival mode.” – Cory [27:11]
  • Denmark: The happiest group are retirees, thanks to universal health care, education, and social supports reducing daily worry and stress.

    “A fulfilling life is one in which you are relaxed enough to pursue purpose...you're not driven by fear, you’re driven by curiosity.” – Cory [31:41]

The Gift and Curse of Pain

• Cory describes his traumatic upbringing: family violence, early mental health crises, and time in psychiatric care and foster living. This turbulence paradoxically kindled his artistry and resilience:

  “The hardship and anguish...is it a gift or is it a curse?” – Dan [44:30]
  “Yes.” – Cory [44:30]

• Transforming suffering into art and empathy:
  • “The goal is not to live a life of ease. The goal is to engage with the painful experiences and transmute them into something beautiful.” – Cory [48:32]

Daily Practices and Wisdom from Suffering

• [53:03] Cory quotes Rilke:

  "Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final."

• Cory describes learning to check in with his nervous system, grounding in the body, and searching for the “place in each of us that is always at peace” [53:22].
• On seeking help:

  “Who do you call to cry?” – Simon Sinek via Cory [55:16]

  • Reflects on the importance and reciprocity of connection, especially amidst anguish.

The Mental Health Crisis & Social Media

• Dan and Cory discuss the mental health crisis in young people, its correlation with social media/iPhone advent [65:47].
• Cory acknowledges his own complicity (bringing Nat Geo onto Instagram) and offers nuanced thoughts: agency in limiting one’s own screen time helps, and 45–60 minutes per day is the “sweet spot” for happiness, after which increased usage correlates with decreased well-being [68:34].

Dating, Modern Life, and Human Values

• Candid discussion on dating apps, modern relationships, and the importance of choosing partners and friends based on “the quality of their heart, not how you show up in the world” [72:32].
• Both lament that genuine connection is often superseded by status-chasing or superficial metrics.

Cameraderie, Compassion, and Connection

• [63:07] Cory challenges notions of masculinity and advocates for men being taught to connect emotionally:

  “When I do do it, I'm like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I think it is innate.”

• Emphasizes the value of curiosity across divides (“define an enemy and you become one” [64:12]), and that compassion emerges when we see ourselves—and others—as living with contradictions, flaws, and vulnerabilities.

Cory’s Top Life Lessons & Takeaways

1. Everything is Storytelling ([73:29])
   • “Every single thing you do...you wake up and you tell yourself a story about who you are, about the world you live in. A lot of that might not actually be accurate...Be mindful of the story you're telling in the moment. And really question it.”
2. The Power of the Exhale ([75:17])
   • “Extend the exhale...you're building the CO2 in your system, which sends a signal up your vagus nerve, which tells your brain that it can relax and switch into the parasympathetic nervous system. It's all about the exhale.”
3. Small Acts of Service & Gratitude ([77:18], [78:55])
   • “I let people in traffic...I wave. I smile at people. I make eye contact with dogs. These are very, very simple things that we can do throughout our day.”
   • “Turn the narrative into acts of service. You are constantly in the privilege of doing something. And that's a shift into gratitude.”

• On Sadness and Acceptance
  • “If you're sad, be fucking sad for a second. Just be sad. Let yourself do it. Doesn't mean stay there. But I guarantee if you let yourself feel it, you will move through it faster.” [55:55]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The opposite of depression is not happiness. It's connection.” – Cory Richards [00:02, 17:21]
• “Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final.” – Rilke, quoted by Cory [53:03]
• “You turn the narrative into acts of service...And that's a shift into gratitude.” – Cory [00:02, 78:55]
• “The goal is not to live a life of ease…transmute the painful experiences into something beautiful.” – Cory [48:32]
• “Everything is storytelling...Be mindful of the story you're telling.” – Cory [73:29]
• “Extend the exhale…It’s all about the exhale.” – Cory [75:19]
• “Define an enemy and you become one.” – Cory [64:12]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Cory’s introduction and vulnerability: [00:21–04:36]
• Career highlights and trauma: [05:12–13:56]
• Bipolar disorder, depression, and mental health: [13:44–16:48]
• Happiness in Blue Zones and what really matters: [20:16–32:25]
• Trauma, childhood, and art: [38:30–48:32]
• Practical advice: reframing, nervous system, exhale, service: [73:29–79:35]
• Mental health and screen time/social media: [65:28–69:29]
• Relationship, compassion, and choosing good people: [71:55–73:06]

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Conclusion & Tone

The episode balances thoughtful scientific insights, vulnerable storytelling, and actionable wisdom. Cory’s language is honest, sometimes raw, leavened with humor and humility. Dan offers affirmations and distills lessons from their Blue Zones research, while shaping Cory’s experiences into universal strategies for meaning, happiness, and resilience.

This is an episode to revisit when searching for hope, perspective, or practical strategies for navigating pain and seeking connection.

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Books Mentioned:

• The Color of Everything by Corey Richards
• Bipolar (photography book) by Corey Richards
• The Self Healing Mind by Dr. Gregory Brown

Find Cory’s work and speaking schedule at: [No link provided in episode]

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Transcript

[Corey Richards]

Lemonade. The opposite of depression is not happiness. It's connection. If you turn the narrative into acts of service, you are constantly in the privilege of doing something. And that's a shift into gratitude.

[Dan Buettner]

Does the hardship and anguish, is it a gift or is it a curse? I've been working with national geographic for about 20 years, and the way that we report science, we metabolize it in stories. And one of the best visual storytellers of the last 20 years is Corey Richards. I did a cover story with him on happiness, which took all the data available in the world and distilled, enabling us to see exactly what are the characteristics that deliver true happiness. And Corey traveled around the world with me to capture this story. And the great irony is that Corey backed in to happiness. Corey lived one of the most miserable childhoods, in a way, grappling with mental health issues, and somehow took that pain and that anguish and created some of the most beautiful art you could ever imagine. Corey's going to tell us the secret of taking pain and converting it into beauty. He's going to tell us the power of a simple wave of letting people into traffic and exactly how to connect with people by being vulnerable. This podcast, you get extra points for vulnerability. Nobody does it better than Corey. You're going to love this episode. Corey Richards.

[Corey Richards]

Dan Buettner.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, I was just thinking that this podcast was really born out of a lot of the interactions we had. You know, we first met and I want to tell this story. I was doing a piece for National Geographic, Unhappiness just a few years ago, and you were the hottest photographer in National Geographic, this badass rock climber who mount climbed Everest two times. And you were young, and all the photo editors wanted to work with you. And I just. A lot of the photographers at National Geographic are kind of assholes. And. And I was completely prepared for this uppity, hubris laden, better than thou guy. And you called me on the phone and within 15 minutes you had told me that you'd been depressed, that you'd been bipolar. And I was just bowled over by the vulnerability. And I instantly liked you. And I found out later that you were assigned the story partially because you were unhappy and some generous editor wanted you to be on this story so maybe you would find happiness. And I got to know you. And you are really one of the most explosively talented human beings I've ever met. These phenomenal photography. You're a beautiful writer. I think you've mastered the art of human interaction. And I know that all this comes from very deep pain and struggle. And the reason I wanted to talk to you here is because wisdom is knowledge plus experience. And you've had deeper, harder, more extreme experience than most other humans. And you're also smart enough to blend the knowledge with that and really produce something that I think is useful for the rest of us to live our lives better. So thank you for coming.

[Corey Richards]

Wow.

[Dan Buettner]

I just streamed that, by the way.

[Corey Richards]

That's an introduction. I hope I can live up to it. I, I actually don't remember. I mean, I remember calling you and, and I will say historically, I've been a bit of an oversharer, but I think that's also been part of there, There is a power in that potentially, and there's also a harm in it. But I, I appreciate that you were one of the people that, that saw the power in it and, and, and brought me on. I mean, I remember sitting down with you for the first. And I think we just talked for three hours.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Corey Richards]

You know, and you sort of invited me into some of the similar struggles that you'd have. But yeah, that was an interesting story. Cause I was, I think, you know, sort of bottoming out at one of the lowest points in my life. And then to be assigned to shoot happiness.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Was happiest places in the world.

[Corey Richards]

Happiest places in the world.

[Dan Buettner]

You did a fabulous job. But before we get to the mental health and the struggles and what we learn from struggling and the really great life lessons that you have, I'd like to just talk a little bit about your accomplishments because, you know, you're not one to brag about yourself. Your mom's from Minnesota.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, Minnesota. We're humble and apologetic and we don't talk about our accomplishments. But talk a little bit about what you're proud of at National Geographic and other, your other endeavors.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, I, I, you're right. I tend to not celebrate the wins sometimes. I'm always a little bit, you know, okay. That happened in forward facing. And for better and worse, I, I am now with some distance from my career, National Geographic, and career as a professional climber. There, there is some, I can give myself some credit. So just from a things I've done perspective, I'm, I was very proud to be, you know, brought into National Geographic when I was 29.

[Dan Buettner]

Adventure of the year soon after that.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, Adventure of the year. And, and my climbing accomplishments were really, I think, significant to me anyway. And you know, some of those, you know, Everest without oxygen and, and being the first American to climb One of the world's highest peaks in winter.

[Dan Buettner]

They think about that. You're freaking cold in the summer, and you go in the winter.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah, of course they're hard. They're hard in summer. Let's go in the winter. Which is sort of emblematic of the way I operate a little bit. But I. And most recently, I did a. I did an artist residency at Oxford University, and so I. You know, there are things that I'm very.

[Dan Buettner]

And how many covers did you shoot for National Geographic covers?

[Corey Richards]

I mean, if you're internationally, I think five or six.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, that's. You know, people work their entire life and don't get to shoot a cover.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Story for National Geographic.

[Corey Richards]

But the irony is when my one, you know, domestic or the sort of the one more famous cover was. Was a selfie. So.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I'm trying to find that in your book here.

[Corey Richards]

It's right next page, I think.

[Dan Buettner]

There we go. There it is. So for those of you on YouTube, you can see it. But for those of you listening, Corey, describe this picture.

[Corey Richards]

So this is a photograph of me. It's actually a selfie that I took after being in an avalanche.

[Dan Buettner]

What does it look like?

[Corey Richards]

Well, it's my face covered in ice and an expression that. I mean, it's a little haunting. It's me trying to grapple with nearly dying. But it's, you know, I'm just encrusted and it's cold.

[Dan Buettner]

You're in climbing gear. It looks like you have white glasses on your forehead. Your face is framed in ice and snow, and you have a look of somewhere between a death rattle and a smile. Sort of a Mona Lisa smile.

[Corey Richards]

For somebody who says they're not visual, you just did that a lot better than I did.

[Dan Buettner]

But it just telegraphed so beautifully the feeling of I just died. And I also discovered I'm alive. Tell the story of what we're seeing right here.

[Corey Richards]

So in 2000, the winter of 2010, 11, I was invited to climb Gashworm 2, which is the world's 13th highest mountain in winter. And we climbed it on February 2nd. And then we got hit by a really big storm on the way down. And on February 4th, we were leaving Camp 1. I'm just looking at it because it's very easy for me to just gloss through this story because I've told it a lot. But we were leaving camp. Camp One, to go to base camp, and we got hit by an avalanche, three of us, and partially buried. And, you know, I was quite certain that we were all Dead. I was certain I was gonna die and we didn't. And after we sort of managed to get out of this snow, several minutes later, I turned on my camera and I took a video of myself sort of just breaking down. And then about an hour later.

[Dan Buettner]

This is the look of death, isn't it?

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's the look of confusion. And I think the way I open the Color of Everything is actually with a quote by Gregory Allen Isakoff from one of his songs that says, the past, she is haunted. The future is laced. And that's really how I see that picture. There's a haunting of something that has now of history that by virtue of the stimulus that has been applied in terms of nearly dying, is now going to lace the future with those ghosts. And I mean, it's fear, it's confusion, it's, you know, trauma. The real impacts of trauma in the brain.

[Dan Buettner]

You were under the snow and it was dark and low on hard to breathe, and you don't know if you're ever gonna come out.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's the moment of the avalanches. I always describe them sort of as a. Well, there's a time dilation, for sure, and the sort of very physical reality is it's just chaos. And it's like being in a car accident where it's incredibly loud, but also there's a silence that underlies it, the whole thing. So there's many dualities happening all at once. And then it's kind of like being in a freight train or being hit by a freight train where the world is, you know, you're seeing the sky, you're seeing the snow, you're seeing the sky, you're seeing the snow. You're seeing flashes of color which are your own limbs getting pushed and pulled around you. And. And to make sense of it is. You can't. It's incomprehensible. But then in. In your mind, the. The speed with which thought and emotion processes accelerates so tremendously that it. It extends, you know, a second, five seconds into. Into a lifetime. So the notion that we. We. Our life flashes before our eyes is actually very relevant. But to me, in the way I've always described it, there's no poetry to it. It's not like in a Hollywood film where you're seeing these beautiful moments of life. You're seeing a bunch of random.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, there was something in this photograph that resonated. I mean, it was the COVID of National Geographic. I think they were 150 125th anniversary.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

So you obviously caught something that was touched the human spirit or was fundamentally recognizable by humans.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, well, I think it's fragility. I think below all of the posturing and the strength building and the resilience that we build, like we are all those things. We are strong, we are resilient, we're innovative, but we're fragile. And I think when we see those, when we see ourselves exposed to our most base level, there is a compassionate resonance that's almost demanded of, of the empathetic mind.

[Dan Buettner]

But you know, to the outward, to the rest of the world, there is nothing about you that seems fragile. You're this tough. You know, if you took your shirt off, you're. I know you're ripped. You lift weights. You're arguably one of the best athletes of the last half a century. Your ability to climb these mountains without oxygen. You, you were the hottest photographer at National Geographic until you left. I know you're a spokesman for. What's the kind of watch you have?

[Corey Richards]

Vacheron.

[Dan Buettner]

Constantin Vacheron, which is a, you know, the icon of fashion. And your, your billboards on Sunset Boulevard. And people would look at you and say, God, this. This guy has it all. He's talented, he's good looking, he's in shape, he's.

[Corey Richards]

God, I feel so good right now.

[Dan Buettner]

This is great. But there's something underneath that, that not everybody sees right away, isn't there?

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, there's. And it is interesting to look at the dichotomy because I think so often people that achieve a high level of success are driven by a deep reservoir of pain. And that pain is a way to connect to a larger swath or totality of the human experience. But it is very, very hard. And for me, that has presented in. And I'm not a big fan of diagnoses because I think there's too much story attached to them. But when I was young, I was diagnosed with, with bipolar 2 when I was about 14. Before that it was anxiety and depression.

[Dan Buettner]

And tell us what bipolar is for those. But I mean, what, what are you experiencing if you're bipolar? What is.

[Corey Richards]

Well, bipolar one and two. And of course now it's, it's. We're learning. It's much more spectrum than that.

[Dan Buettner]

And it's a great book too.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, well, both, Both poles.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

I photographed from the Arctic to Antarctica.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

So it is a cluster of behaviors that are characterized by very high highs and very low lows. And so if you imagine the normal range of human experience as A globe. And the equator is where most people, or, you know, above and below the equator is where most people operate. Well, when you're bipolar, as per the.

[Dan Buettner]

Name, you're at Everest and then you're down.

[Corey Richards]

You're a polar explorer.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

And, and so bipolar 2 is characterized by what's referred to as hypomania, which is not the North Pole, but it's in the Arctic Circle. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Corey Richards]

And so mania would be the North Pole. And that converge into psychosis and things like that, where. That's where people are selling houses and betting on their entire money and like not even making sense sometimes when they're.

[Dan Buettner]

And at this very moment talking now, you're, you're vulnerable. Opportunity. Where are you right now in that?

[Corey Richards]

Honestly, right now I'm in a. Again, nobody would see this necessarily, but I'm in a significant down cycle, you know, where. And again, I'm cautious about oversharing because I, but this is an environment where I think it's important. Like two days ago, you know, I, I, I, I barely, I sat on the edge of my bed for two hours and just stared. And this is amidst starting a business. This is amidst, you know, a very full stared.

[Dan Buettner]

Because you didn't know what to do next, or you just frozen with sadness.

[Corey Richards]

I just couldn't move. I was just that sad.

[Dan Buettner]

And.

[Corey Richards]

Those things come, and they're very, very challenging because when balanced against the other things that I have, to your point, done in my life, it feels like a catastrophic failure. A failure.

[Dan Buettner]

It doesn't matter what you've done.

[Corey Richards]

It doesn't matter. In fact, it doesn't even register. And the interesting thing about a lot of depressive experiences, that sort of erases the memory of anything, that of ever feeling better, it's like that. It's very hard to connect back to that.

[Dan Buettner]

What does the sadness feel like right now?

[Corey Richards]

Well, right now. Right now it's lifted. Right. Because I'm with people that I care about. Right. I'm engaged in a meaningful conversation. I feel, I feel seen. And so in this moment, it feels slightly lifted. But if I'm, but if I'm careful and mindful, I can connect to that sadness and what it, what it feels.

[Dan Buettner]

There's kind of a lesson right there I'd just like to pull out. You know, I don't even think you realized it, but the fact that you found the anecdote for sadness in a meaningful conversation and people who care about you and an engagement of purpose, and I think that's so often, you know, those are things that are accessible to everybody.

[Corey Richards]

Everybody. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And they're the best medicine. I mean, could you take a pill right now and feel better?

[Corey Richards]

Not for this. I mean, it would take. Well, I could take MDMA and I'd feel better for a few hours.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, then there's hell to pay tomorrow.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, then there's hell to pay tomorrow. But you're right. I mean, that is. That's truly what this is about. The opposite of depression is not happiness. It's connection, really. That's how I view it. It's. I don't. I think happiness has been appropriated and commod. Commodified. Right. Connection isn't necessarily I feel happy. It's. I. I am. I am no longer immersed in my own pain.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, as a National Geographic Explorer, I spend most of my life on the road. I like to say my main residence is a backpack. But actually, I also have a real home. And because I'm not there most of the time, I usually host on Airbnb while I'm away. Next month, in fact, I'm taking a team of scientists to Sardinia, where we found a new Blue Zone. And while I'm away, my home will be on Airbnb because it makes sense. And the income I make off of that covers most of my expenses. So I'm a big fan of Airbnb and how it solves a big corner of my little universe. You know, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Corey Richards]

You know.

[Dan Buettner]

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[Corey Richards]

I think so, yeah, yeah, I think.

[Dan Buettner]

It was the January cover of National Geographic. You took the best picture, but you came with me to Denmark. I remember the kids jumping and, and Singapore and we learned from that. Happiness is the sum of having your needs taken care of. Food and shelter, you need health care, you need some mobility, you need a feeling of giving back. You deserve to treat yourself once in a while. Somebody to love, somebody who loves you. There are really clear, there's clear componentry to happiness. And connection, I think is one of them.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, it's a frame. I mean, what you're talking about is the framework that can provide more prolonged, what we would call happiness. But even living in that framework does not mean that you're going to be happy. Look, we're not supposed to be happy all the time.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, that's right.

[Corey Richards]

That's not the goal. And I disagree with the Dalai Lama because he has said that the goal of life or the goal is to live a happy life. I actually totally fundamentally disagree with that.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, if our ancestors weren't to a certain extent neurotic and worried, you know, it's, it's the caveman who is kind of aggressive at that, you know, village over the hill and who is a coveting and wants the beautiful woman to procreate with or the, you know, the studly man to procreate with. So they have children in the next generation or are worried about, you know, skipping along the cliff that they might fall. Those are the genes that got into the next generation were the genes that were full of worry and neuroticism and aggressiveness and, and these trying to override it with. I don't think kindness necessarily is something that's encoded in our genes. It's something we have to learn or intuit.

[Corey Richards]

Well, I, but I would argue too that kindness does have long term, the greatest net positive outcome.

[Dan Buettner]

It did. I'm just saying it's not natural.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, well, I mean, survive. I think it's both. I think both are natural. Right. Because we learn to be kind and that, and that endears us to social connection and the people around us that keeps us Safe. So that what I would argue, kindness does work there. But to your point, that neuroticism, that sort of aggression, that. That also gets encoded into future generations. And so we're living in a constant duality and a constant paradox of ourselves. And I think for me, so much of what's. What's brought me more peace over time is learning to understand that the ambiguity is actually where liberation is, the messy middle, where I can be many things at one time. I can be hypocritical, I can live in those paradoxes. I can be full of contradictions. And once I accept that about myself and. And really look at it critically, what it does naturally for me is, is it is. It allows me to see the same is true for every other person, which is an invitation in my mind into compassion. So I can look at you and I can say, I know Dan has blind spots. Contradictions, paradoxes can be nice one minute and an absolute dickhead the next. You've never been a total dickhead, you.

[Dan Buettner]

Know, but I'll work on it.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah, but this is true for everybody. And so if we can step back and see that, then we're like, oh, you know, there is liberation when we gravitate towards. We talk all the time right now about polarity and being polarized. That comes from a mechanism by which we feel unsafe. So we gravitate towards community that makes us feel safe. And so often we then define the other community as other or even worse, we define an enemy. And in that same instant, we become one.

[Dan Buettner]

Can I. Can we talk just a minute about. You know, you and I spent almost a year finding these places where people live statistically longest and then trying to understand what. What are the character characteristics of those places. And you were the photographer. And at National Geographic, the photographers are really special. They're not just going there to get snapshots. The best photographers like yourself really metabolize the story. The writer goes and tells one story and the photographer tells another story and enhancing stories, and they sort of work together like a yin and yang to offer a complete story. And I'm wondering if you could sort of rewind the tape of what you learned in Singapore, which was a part of the world, the happiest place in Asia, which shocks everybody thinks it's Bhutan. It's not Bhutan.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

People in Singapore actually have the highest life satisfaction. They are more satisfied with their lives than anybody else. And. And that shocks a lot of people. And then Denmark, I know Finland right now is number one in the world, is the happiest place. But over the last 50 years or so, the Danes themselves in international surveys say they're not only the most satisfied with their life, but they have the most positive feelings on a day to day basis and the fewest negative feelings on a day to day. And they're most engaged with purpose. So if you can remember and you can pick either or both of the locations, but is there anything that stuck out with you in what you learned about happiness by photographing happiness? And maybe you could actually single out the. The photograph that comes to mind.

[Corey Richards]

First of all, a lot of things stuck out and some of them were again, paradoxical. We're always taught that money doesn't matter. Well, in Singapore, money actually does matter when it factors into happiness. And part of that is a holistic sense of safety. And so there's the five C's. What were they? The cash, credit card, condo, car, maybe community. Community. Or it was. Oh no, country club. Country club, which is a community. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

You just have to pay a lot to get into. Right.

[Corey Richards]

So you've got this very counterintuitive. That was one.

[Dan Buettner]

But a very simple kind of we're talking about list before. And yeah. You know how they're thumbnails but you don't want to completely rely on them. But okay. So that was good for Singapore.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. I mean then that was just interesting for me for Singapore. One of the things that was really interesting was the home ownership system there. What, 80% of people own their homes?

[Dan Buettner]

Highest in the world. Yep.

[Corey Richards]

Right. So what that does is it security. Security. It creates a sense of community and ownership. That, that leads people to keep cleaner environments.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

You know what I mean?

[Dan Buettner]

No graffiti and no broken windows.

[Corey Richards]

Exactly. So there's a sense social cohesion where there isn't sort of the polarity that we see here. Singapore writ large telegraphs that there are many different paths to happiness and they're not so prescriptive. But to me, what the broader stroke is. Safety. When we feel safe in an environment, be it a relationship, a community, we tend to be able to. We're no longer in survival mode.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

So we're not in our sympathetic nervous system or this is again reductive, but we're more capable of accessing our parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest recovery system. And so we are at rest and that's where you can actually invest in overall wellness. But when you're in survival, like we are in America all the time because we're doom scrolling and being told everything's fucked when we feel safe, our overall happiness goes up. That's. You know, and a great microcosm of that is just look, in your relationship, if you feel safe and secure, loved, cared for, provided for in whatever ways you have arranged in a relationship, your mean level happiness is going to go up. You're just more satisfied. If your nervous system is on constant high alert and you're always worried about the next fight or you're always. Whatever that. That mechanism of feeling unsafe is, you're not going to be very happy.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Your cortisol thundering through your veins, your having more inflammation.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. What have I done wrong? What's. What, what am I expecting with like, all of these things? And that, that goes to your, even to your, your work in longevity is.

[Dan Buettner]

That.

[Corey Richards]

I would argue that the, the greatest predictor of longevity is actually massively reduced stress, period. You know, like all the, the other markers are great and they're, they're pieces, they're components. But reducing stress levels overall, which reduces inflammation, which reduces chronic disease. That's what we're really talking about.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. It's so powerful to be able to. Well, let's, let's go to the other sort of happiness Extreme. Denmark.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You shot that as well. And you shot a very different dimension of the human experience in Denmark.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Do you remember the photographs you shot? You've taken so many.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. I mean, there's, there are standouts. Right. And it's funny because they're actually. Happiness didn't go in. Bipolar. And I'm gonna do a second book. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Make it happiness.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah. I'll just make it a. Happiness.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Corey Richards]

But I remember this one shot. I forget the name of the little village we were in, but it was all like this, this guy, and he's just got leather, leather skin. He's sitting out in the sun. I think he's bald and he's against this red house. And he's just explaining something to me with his arms up in the air.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. Sort of like God's creation. Here I am. This is so great. I'm sitting in the sun and I have nowhere to go and nothing to do. And there was, there was an element of happiness to that. And there was this exuberance too, in the public swimming environments where just.

[Dan Buettner]

Just to give context to that, the, the happiest cohort in the world. In other words, the, the subgroup of people who report the highest level of happiness are retirees in Denmark. And my, my written explanation for that was that this is the place where you never have to Worry. If you get sick, you don't have to worry about what happens to you.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Because everybody has health care here, 20% of Americans, if they get sick, they're screwed. You never have to worry about where your kids go to school or if they're smart when they get to go to college. College is absolutely free. And nobody has to worry about what happens when I get old because everybody gets a living wage for their entire life. And this, I think he was about a 70 year old guy and he radiated a certain joy that I felt just came from not this pursuit of euphoria, but rather just. And it goes to your point of safety. I don't have to worry about shit. Yeah, you know, that's all the things that sort of grate you down on a day to day basis, their absence from his life.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. You know, it's funny, I think Dr. Gregory Brown, he wrote the Self Healing Mind makes a really good point in his TEDx talk. He says, you know, the goal should not be happiness, but fulfillment. And a fulfilling life is one in which you are relaxed enough to pursue purpose. Right. And you're not driven by fear, you're driven by curiosity. You're driven by the pursuit of contribution. Right. Meaningful contribution that is outside of yourself. We see plenty of people that are pursuing wealth simply because it, you know, for economic status or status in general. And that does not happiness make, that does not fulfillment make.

[Dan Buettner]

Johnny Cash was once asked if he thought that he was getting rich. And a journalist asked him if he thought money buys happiness. And he thought about it for a minute, he goes, well, I don't know if money buys happiness, but it will buy a Cadillac so you can drive around and look for happiness. That's great.

[Corey Richards]

That's awesome. I never heard that.

[Dan Buettner]

Sometimes it's nice just to have that little anecdote that takes all the heaviness and scientific rigor off of it and just kind of gets down to a Cadillac.

[Corey Richards]

I mean, yeah, Cadillac, to drive around and look for it. You know, one of the great ironies.

[Dan Buettner]

Of that, this National Geographic and it was a big problem, it was a year long project to gather all the data on happiness and really tell people what drives happiness. Because when it comes to happiness, what most people think bring it, they're misguided or just plain wrong. Most of the sort of crap we're market, it sends us off in the absolute wrong direction. But you were assigned this story because you were unhappy to come with me and look for happiness. And then something very sort of traumatic happened. And by the way you write about it beautifully in the Color of Everything, this fantastic memoir. And you know, most photographers couldn't write their selves out of a wet paper bag. And you know, I read this book and I said to myself, God damn it, he's a better writer than me as well as a photographer. It's just a gorgeous book. And you write chapter, you write about, well, that experience. I don't know if you want to convey any of it.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, sure. I mean, the punchline is this. We're on assignment, we're in Singapore and I have been drinking way too much. You know, it's sort of start early in the day and excuse it, I. And this is not just on assignment, this is in my life. I'm. I'm newly divorced on, on the heels of some really, I mean, I, I will take full ownership of that divorce, meaning that, you know, I was cheating and lying and living very. A life that was not in integrity, that was not aligned with my values. And I ended up, I remember just sitting in the hotel room this one night and I had been out wandering the streets just looking for anything. You know, I was, I think I was over at the hawkers and looking, trying to. And I just got more and more and more depressed seeing people having fun, seeing people sort of in love, seeing what was it doing. It was, it was amplifying all the meaningful parts of my life that were, that were out of balance or missing. And I went back to the hotel room and it's kind of an embarrassing story, but it's out in the world. You know, I met a girl who I had met on Tinder or something like that and she'd come over and done our thing. And then I'm just sitting there on the side of the bed again and there's you know, like empty MIDI bottles and stuff. And I just realized that something was really, really. I was trying to fill a hole inside of me with anything that had a short term sort of dopamine hit or benefit. And I realized something was so wrong. And so I just, I opened my laptop and I typed in rehab. And then I passed out. And I woke up the next morning and I turned on my computer and I was like, oh yeah. And so I started making calls from Singapore and it was in Singapore that I signed up for a 30 day rehab, you know, stint. And I went in Thailand. And interestingly enough, I went to Thailand not because it was exotic, but it was the only place I could afford, you know, the care there was so much cheaper than America. And I think that's so tragic. I don't want to get off topic here, but, like, people who need help here can't afford it.

[Dan Buettner]

We're gonna come to that.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up in Chiang mai for. For 30 days. And really engaging. You know, it was a three pronged approach to. To sobriety, which was mindfulness, CBT, and 12 step, which, by the way, I think contradict each other sometimes. 12 step and CBT.

[Dan Buettner]

But CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy, which is getting you to change the story of your life so you're not telling the flawed story over and over.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, it's based on cognitive distortions, things like all or nothing thinking black and white, sort of over indexing on the negative and getting to. And mindfulness works hand in hand with it because it helps us recognize the story we're telling in the moment, in real time, and go, wait a minute, is that true? You know, and that reframes our thoughts. So it's less about getting into the sort of Freudian basement of mom and dad did this. And this happened to me when I was this age. And ergo, I have all these issues. It's more, okay, you might have some core beliefs. You do. So let's restructure those core beliefs, because the actual why of things I think is useful. But it becomes a little problematic when we continue to go back to that. Well, I have this trauma, therefore I am this way. And our society is now really engaged with the idea of trauma, and it's important. And at the same time, learning of that does not heal it. Healing it is moving beyond the stories that it creates.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. I think it's important to give people context because you just told this very revealing story, and thank you for that. But the part of the story people probably don't know is you had a tough childhood. You told us that you were diagnosed early on with bipolar disorder, but you had a brother who kind of bullied you around, and you had a father with very high expectations of you. And. And you. You dealt with a lot of trauma.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And you can't explain away alcohol abuse or cheating on your wife with that. But there is, you know, there's a through line and in lots of people's lives through that.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, so I grew up in Salt Lake City, and early childhood was actually really quite idyllic. You know, we were not wealthy people, but we had means. You know, we were. We were middle class, solidly middle class, and my dad was a school teacher. And I would say it was My mom that actually had higher expectations. My dad was very. He was a pacifist by nature. And my brother and I really go into this in the color of everything about the psychological machinations that erupted and. And why those things happened. Long term, there's a string of events, and part of this is epigenetics. Part of this is unresolved things from our parents. But, you know, both of us were vying for your brother and you. My brother and I were vying for emotional connectivity and our needs to be met with our parents. And he was older. I was, you know, two years younger than him. And it. For whatever reason, and I've dissected it a lot in the book, but for whatever reason, that relationship became very, very violent and violence towards me. But one of the things that I really feel strongly about is that although it was. The violence was perpetrated by my brother, I learned too, that this interaction got me attention. So I started feeding into it. And that.

[Dan Buettner]

That sounds kind of fucked up from the outside, actually. What do you mean that you would invite a beating from your brother for attention?

[Corey Richards]

We do it all the time. The emotional feedback that we get from tumultuous situations is often very satisfying, especially if the rest of our lives feel devoid of it, because the repair of a terrible fight feels great.

[Dan Buettner]

I see.

[Corey Richards]

You know what I mean?

[Dan Buettner]

Back end of it. Not necessarily getting punched.

[Corey Richards]

It's not getting punched in the face. No. What feels good is the care that you receive on the back end. And if it's a situation you can't escape, well, what's a great way to feel care when you feel unsafe, you create an environment or continue to contribute to an environment that isn't safe, so that that repair makes you feel safe. You know, my grades started to fall. I went to high school two years early. My grades started to fall. I got medicated when I was 12, and then I got put in the hospital, the psychiatric unit, when I was 13, for doing what I, you know, I had gone from being a straight A student to dropping out, essentially.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, that. You don't put people in a mental institution for getting Ds.

[Corey Richards]

It's not about getting Ds. It's all the behavior around it. It's sort of the, you know, the obvious depression, the obvious refusal to act in any sort of way that allows, you know, like, a family cohesion. It was the erratic behavior, it was the not coming home, the not sleeping, all of these things contributing to quite a quite visible expression of somebody who's in. In profound turmoil. Inner turmoil.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And so I got put in the hospital and then from there I got put in a long term care facility, eight months where I ran away three times. And then on the back end of that, I, my parents. The third time I ran away and some really hard things happened several times when I was on the. Running away and out of the facility and dodging cops and squatting in people's houses and that's all in the book. And then when I ran away the third time from the, from the facility, my parents said, well, that's, you know, you have to take agency for this. And I remember watching the locks be changed and they're like, you can't live at home. So then I was 15 years old and on the street and most of the time I was not, you know, sometimes I was literally squatting and in parks and stuff. But a lot of times I was taken in by friends and, you know, living in basements and stuff like that. And that was sort of a two year process of getting taken in by family, friends and moving around. And so that is the, when you talk about the trauma of childhood, that's what you're referring to. I just, I think that gives people.

[Dan Buettner]

A pretty clear backstory and it's led to a lot of pain and anguish. It's a life of pain. And I wish people could see your book Bipolar, which is in front of me. It's like the best National Geographic photography you've ever seen. And I wish they could read the color of everything your book because they are both so searingly beautiful and your talent is almost heartbreaking. But to know that it has come at the same time. You've had this unbelievably difficult past. There's nothing about your past that would predict your incredible success right now. Billboards on Sunset Boulevard and, you know, cover of magazines. And I, I'm just wondering, does this, does the hardship and anguish, is it a gift or is it a curse?

[Corey Richards]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

When you, when you're taking your best photographs.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, there's one. Another one I want to show people. Here I was walking down the street of Aspen, the richest people and, and on the, in the. A fancy gallery. This was the biggest picture in the world. Three feet wide, two feet high. And, and it was their showcase photograph and stunningly beautiful. It was selling for tens of thousands of dollars. And again, for people listening on YouTube, you can see this. But for those of you who are just listening, Corey, describe this picture, please. Where are you and what are we seeing?

[Corey Richards]

So we're in the kingdom of Mustang, right on the border of Tibet. And it's two young Tibetan. One's wearing. They're both wearing chubas, which is the Tibetan dress. And one is wearing a red shirt and the other's wearing blue. One has this sort of topknot crazy high pony with very rough chopped hair. And the other one is. She's got like, looks like a boy's haircut and it's just very short and choppy. And their expressions, well, they're both holding their hands together in sort of the namaste greeting. And their expressions are. The little one in red is. She looks quite concerned. And then the one in blue is very, very stoic. But the thing I love most about it is both of them are doing something very distinct with their feet that sort of imply this timidness. One has her little toe pointing up and the other one has one of her feet crossed over the other one. So it's a very sweet, sweet moment.

[Dan Buettner]

In most portraits, the tendency is to put the subject in the middle of the frame and. And you have them at the far right of the frame. What is, what, what, what's. What's going on with the rest of the picture? And why are they off center?

[Corey Richards]

Well, first of all, I don't like following the rules of photography. And secondly, I just. There's. I wanted to show more of the landscape because where they live is this very barren, sort of monochromatic, sandy sort of. It's like. It's like living in a. In a. In a castle that is falling apart all around you at all times, which sort of echoes the Buddhist concept of impermanence. And I just wanted to show more of that and show the clouds behind them and celebrate the asymmetries of life.

[Dan Buettner]

Is this picture come from pain or does it come from joy Again?

[Corey Richards]

Yes. You're trying to make it singular and it is not. It comes from both. And it can't be. It's way too reductive to be like art is from pain.

[Dan Buettner]

Or it's, I guess, where I want this to go. I know I'm not nearly this talented, but I didn't have to suffer as much as you. So that's why I'm not as talented.

[Corey Richards]

Well, you could say that. But also I think it's just about learning how to channel that creative energy. That's what I'm saying is like people want a cut and dry answer for this. There isn't one. Life isn't black and white. That's why the book is called the Color of everything, there is no. It's part pain, it's part joy, and it's part everything in between. And when we try to make it reductive, we reduce it to something so simple that people can walk away with or take away.

[Dan Buettner]

But I'm going to challenge you on something here. The Color of, of Everything is a journey of pain and enlightenment. And if you hadn't suffered, would this book have ever happened?

[Corey Richards]

Not at all.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. So many of us, we go through hard times during our life and I guess what I'm suggesting is that in that pain there's something. That there's the raw material of something magic.

[Corey Richards]

Absolutely agree 100%. When we. The goal is not to live a life of ease. The goal is to. To engage with the painful experiences and transmute them into something beautiful.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. I'm of the opinion, having been in these blue zones where people live a long time, they're happy. It's never the result of. Of ease.

[Corey Richards]

No, they're, they are, they're.

[Dan Buettner]

They tend to be poor, they tend to work hard, they tend to. Their life is not surrounded by comforts. They don't live in a perpetual 72 degree air conditioned box or heated box. They're not five steps from some rich processed foods. They don't drive everywhere, they walk everywhere. If they need food for their family, they're not going down to the Costco, they're going to their garden. And I almost see this, this constant pursuit of comfort and ease as a sickness, or at least producing sickness. And your life, for me, when I think about it, the opposite of that. This. It's not that you pursued pain, but you've had to deal with pain and hardship. And out of it has come the, the beauty in so many manifests in the color of everything and bipolar. And to a certain extent you're this amazingly engaging. You're a good friend. We've been friends for eight years now or something like that. And I regard you. You're one of these people who calls. You're one of these people who are 100% present. You're one of these people who, if I have a hard time, I can call you. And I know you care. I know you've kind of experienced, but you stop everything. And it's just this, it's this lesson, this beware of comfort. There's another side here that has, that can produce beauty.

[Corey Richards]

Thank you for all of that, by the way. And I like showing up because I know that that actually is good for me too. But I like showing up and Just being there for my friends, it creates a cohesion that is just limitless in any way. To answer your question, the pain has for me been very necessary in the creation of the different things that I have made. Be it a book, photographs, a business, without those experiences, I wouldn't be who I am. And I often even frame the relationship with my brother in that way. It's like at one point I stood back and I go, holy shit. He's been my greatest guide. That relationship and the resultant impacts have shaped my life more than any other relationship. And I love my life. And why would I carry anger towards somebody?

[Dan Buettner]

Where does he know? Are you guys pals?

[Corey Richards]

No. No, we're not. We're not close. And that's okay. That's okay. I mean, there's a 2% anguish there and a 98% of just acceptance. And what does he do? He's. He. He's a snow scientist. He's a brilliant guy. He studies, of all things, avalanches.

[Dan Buettner]

Which damn near killed you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just doesn't stop, does he? Just does.

[Corey Richards]

He just doesn't stop. I mean, I love the guy. He is. And it's okay that we're not friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. So what would you say, having gone through these very low times that dealt with depression, dealt with being institutionalized, dealt with feeling kind of bullied.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

What do you say to people listening right now who are going through a version of that? What are. What are the. What. What can you do to either get out of it or somehow accept it and. And turn chicken shit into chicken sandwiches? That was a phrase my lawyer used to use.

[Corey Richards]

That's great. You know, first of all, the. The very opening. The words in the book are from. From Rilke, and it's. It's. Let all things happen to you. Beauty and terror. Read them there. They're right on that page.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No, feeling is final.

[Corey Richards]

That's first and foremost.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, that's great.

[Corey Richards]

That's.

[Dan Buettner]

That's. Yeah. So no matter how bad it is now, it's not going to last forever.

[Corey Richards]

No. Feeling is final. And the.

[Dan Buettner]

The.

[Corey Richards]

The single greatest thing that I've learned how to do is to understand my nervous system and. And understand the messages that my nervous system is saying. People go, that's so nebulous. No. Okay. Are you. Just check in right now. What are you feeling as you're driving in your car, listening to this podcast in your body? Are you tense? Are you, like, what's going on? That is Your nervous system talking. And we can check in with that at any moment, in any conversation, throughout any day. Right. And the more we learn that, the deeper into it we can get. And what I'm suggesting here is there's a place in every single person that is always at peace. It's buried under a lot of layers for people, for most of us, but there is a place in each of us that is always at peace. It is always at rest. And it has. It needs nothing. It is literally rock solid. And as you learn to access that place in any moment when you're feeling triggered, when you're in an argument, whatever the fuck it is, if you're in a bad situation, you can always access that place. That takes work. It's not. There's. There's no biohack for that. Right. That doesn't. Psychedelics don't do it. None of it does that. Learning how to access. Access that place. So that's. That's the first thing. And secondarily learning how to ask for help, even when you're in scary positions, that's second. And.

[Dan Buettner]

But let's just drill down a little bit on that. So let's say I am really depressed. What do I do? Who do I call? Ask for help?

[Corey Richards]

Well, who do you call? I mean, do you have somebody that, you know, you can call? That's the first and foremost thing. Do you. Do. You know, I was talking to Simon Sinek about this and I was telling him, like, I was crying, and he goes, not right. Then he goes, who do you call to cry? And it was such a beautiful question.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And I was like, well, I could call you, you know, but I had never thought of that. So, you know, who do you call to cry? Do you have that person? Okay, there's your first thing. If you don't figure that out, you know, nobody. There's no easy answer because like I said the other day, there I am. Who has. I have all the fucking resources. I have read every book. I've written a book about this, and I can't get off the side of my bed. There are no easy answers for this. The simplest thing you can do is just do one thing.

[Dan Buettner]

Just keep going.

[Corey Richards]

Just keep going. And even doing that one thing isn't going to necessarily make you feel better. And that's okay for me. It's stepping far enough out to go, I'm sad. That's it. I'm just sad. And that's where I am. And that's where apparently I need to be right now. And not fussing about trying to hijack, you know, and biohack our way into some better state of being. If you're sad, be fucking sad for a second. Just be sad. Let yourself do it. Doesn't mean stay there. But I guarantee if you let yourself feel it, you will move through it faster rather than trying to reject it. It'll just keep coming back or paper.

[Dan Buettner]

Over it with noise or music or.

[Corey Richards]

Drugs or sex or. I mean, I've done it all. Guess what? It doesn't work. It does not works in the short run. It works in the short run, you know, so that's. That's one thing, and I think for the other side of this is when people. People always go, what do I do if somebody's struggling? Okay, that is actually maybe even a better question. We are much better at noticing people who are struggling than we think we are. When you notice that, call them and share. You know, don't necessarily put the onus on them to tell you how they're doing. Open up first.

[Dan Buettner]

Showing up and being present.

[Corey Richards]

Being present and just connecting. Just connecting. So if you're struggling or you notice somebody's struggling, the antidote, at least short term, is connection. But that's hard to do. It's hard because people who hurt oftentimes don't want to be a burden. And so they're not necessarily going to reach out. They don't want to burn. I don't want to call you and be a bummer all the time. Does that make sense?

[Dan Buettner]

It makes sense, the all the time part of it. But I would argue that if you called me, it would telegraph to me that you think I possess some wisdom, maybe. Of course, you telegraph to me that you trust me, that I'm a true friend. And I think people who are reticent to make that call forget that. Actually, the person you want to call are probably going to be grateful that you did feel honored.

[Corey Richards]

That's the other side of it, is your reaching out for help is very rarely a burden. It's actually an honor. And it makes your friends feel good. It makes your friends feel like they can show up for you, and it endears that connection and deepens it. And so that that bond. Who do you call when you want to cry? Is created, you know, and men especially, have a hard time with this.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We just had a guest on Vanessa Van Edwards who said that women, when they connect, they want face to face, right? Men want side by side. They go to a ball game together, they watch a game together, or They, I guess, play pickleball, but they're not really looking at each other as much as, I mean, you do, you're an evolved guy and we're good friends. But I think a lot of guys are a little bit afraid of that deep connection that comes from.

[Corey Richards]

We're just not taught how to do it. Our culture does not give us that from a young age and we could unwind this issue for days. And I'm very passionate about it. But you know, the, the patriarchal system that we live in, which by the way, isn't all bad, has raised a, you know, Obama was talking about it recently where it has raised a culture of boys who, and men who are essentially emotionally stunted. Right. And then we get to later in life when we're, we're expected to do a whole handful of things and there's no, in essence, validation for that work. And then, and then in order to get validated, we seek out money and sex essentially, and we exert those levers over society to feel seen. And when we can't access those things, we are deeply angry and even angry when we can. And then we start joining the proud boys and shit like that because it gives us a place to belong.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill, it could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can, but it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and raps and eyes about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is, is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Dan Buettner]

I think it's important to realize that we're evolutionally hardwired to seek the versions of power, money and sex. Yeah, that's what got our genes in the next generation. That's how natural selection works. The people who survive to procreate are the ones who have the resources, the ones that have the power to conquer the next city for resources and the ones that get the sex to get their genes into the next generation. Yes, to a certain extent. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even blame culture men. We're probably hardwired to be sort of aggressive and wary and not necessarily all heart openingly connecting with other men. I think that we have to override that and we realize that in a world where we don't have to compete for food, we don't have to compete for a place to live, and you know, in certain places around the world, we have to compete for safety. And connecting with other men is joyous and brings happiness.

[Corey Richards]

So, so. But here's the thing. You just said we're not conditioned, we're not, we're not programmed to do that. And I would push back. I'd say we are not taught how to do it from a young age. And that's just my feeling about it.

[Dan Buettner]

Because I agree 100%. Because.

[Corey Richards]

Because when I do do it, I'm like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I think it is innate. And I think if you look back, I think sort of that, that history that you're saying about conquering and. Yes, but also we had tribal cultures where men were constantly in contact, where we were communing as groups of just men and we were sharing big experiences. It wasn't individualistic.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, but not the next village over the. You know, if you're a Turkana in northern Africa and a Pakot who lives, you know, two villages away and they're mortal enemies.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Dan Buettner]

To be really trusting and open your heart to. If you're Turkana to Pakot throughout much of history, you, you know, you'd end up impaled with a spear.

[Corey Richards]

Well, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying you go over heart opening to your neighbor that hates you. I'm saying that's, that's one aspect of our, of our evolution. But the other aspect is the tribal.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, if you're a Democrat, do you open your heart to Republicans?

[Corey Richards]

Absolutely. Yeah. 100%.

[Dan Buettner]

He hates you.

[Corey Richards]

100%. I don't. Again, define an enemy and you become one. You do, like instantly Define an enemy and you become one.

[Dan Buettner]

Does that work the other way? Define a friend.

[Corey Richards]

Quite possibly. At least you're no longer an enemy. He might still hold you as an enemy, but you're not exerting that sort of energy towards him.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And. Or them. So, yes, like, look, I don't. I'm. What I'm more interested in is the stories that you've inherited and have been told that have formed your beliefs. Because there you're human to me, your beliefs, they might be disparate, but I don't really give a shit about those beliefs. I'm curious about, how did you get there? Because that's a place we can explore together. And if we can get in that community and I can hear how you got there, I'm not going to. You're not going to convince me that it's right, but at least I'm curious. And in extending that curiosity to you, I invite you into a space where we can actually connect heart to heart. And you see it all the time. People do this all the time, where they take out. You're not at the rally anymore. You're two people sat at a table and having a connection and having a conversation. Well, tell me how you were raised. Okay, well, that gives you a whole bunch of information and insight.

[Dan Buettner]

So, you know, we have this rising mental health issue, especially with young men, but also young girls. Interestingly, there's been this uptick in anxiety and suicides that began in 2011. You know what else happened in 2011?

[Corey Richards]

Instagram and. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

No. What? The iPhone.

[Corey Richards]

Oh, the iPhone.

[Dan Buettner]

IPhone. So. So social media was in our pocket. It was with us every minute of the day. It's a. Maybe it's a coincidence.

[Corey Richards]

Oh, it's absolutely not a coincidence.

[Dan Buettner]

Maybe not, but when you think of you, you talk a lot about mental health, and I know you're thinking about a business and working on a business on mental health, but what do we do as a nation and as individuals to address it?

[Corey Richards]

Well, first of all, I think we need to stop thinking of it. You used a great word. Address it. Mental health is not something in my mind. Again, I'm not a clinician. Mental health is not something to be cured. It's something to be managed and navigated.

[Dan Buettner]

It's not going away.

[Corey Richards]

It's not going away. Our brains operate in a very specific way for a very specific reason. When we see different stimulus applied, like social media, it's going to have impact. So what do we do as a culture? Well, we recognize and we identify it and Then we come collectively together to make decisions, like people are doing already, about no phones in schools. You know, how do we limit screen time? How do we create an environment and a culture and a movement in which we are fostering connection.

[Dan Buettner]

There's just some irony here.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

That people don't know. National Geographic has the most successful Instagram account in the world. Who got National Geographic on Instagram? I did the earliest. Corey Richards got National Geographic on Instagram. Instagram. And now he's, he's railing Instagram. But okay, we didn't know better.

[Corey Richards]

We didn't know. And, and I'm still on Instagram and I still use Instagram. So part of it is starting with, with ourselves too, is limiting our own intake.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And, and learning how it's not putting on blue blockers at night just so you can keep scrolling.

[Dan Buettner]

Interesting data point here. With National Geographic, we did a survey,150,000 people, and we asked them how much time they spend on social media, screen time and their level of life satisfaction or happiness. And it turns out actually that when people are using between 45 minutes and an hour, they also report collectively the highest satisfaction. Not people who don't use it at all. But after you use it about an hour, then your happiness starts to drop. And after about two hours of use, your happiness just falls off the cliff. And the least happy people. And we didn't even think to ask more hours than this. But in our survey, the most you could report was eight hours of social media use. And those were the least happy people in our, in our survey. And I'm guessing there's people who are on it more than eight hours a day. But very clear correlation between too much screen time and social media use and unhappiness.

[Corey Richards]

And it makes perfect sense, right? Like, you get a good amount of, of dopamine influx, a healthy little amount. You're getting your little hits, right. And then you shut it down and you get some cool information. Information. And you see what your friends or.

[Dan Buettner]

You connect with people.

[Corey Richards]

You connect in the real world. Well, what I'm saying is that's why like 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

That's all you need.

[Corey Richards]

That's all you need. Right. You get the little hit, but then you exhaust yourself.

[Dan Buettner]

You get on Corey Richards Instagram feed, Dan Buener's Instagram feed, and then you pretty much got it.

[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Then you got it. Then it's all good and it's all happy and healthy. I mean, it's, it's, it's problematic and Truthfully, it's. It's a bigger problem than I have a solution for, but I think agency over our own use is where it starts. You know, I notice that when I'm on Instagram more or I'm on dating apps or whatever they happen to be, I am much, much. I'm much less satisfied with my life.

[Dan Buettner]

Interesting.

[Corey Richards]

I feel it in my. Again, in my nervous system. I feel sort of just downtrodden. I feel exhausted, and I'm just like, what am I doing? You know, it's just like a kid in a candy store and.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, well, as a. As a single guy out there navigating the dating world.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

I mean, how do you do it in. In 2025, if dating apps make you feel shitty, it's. How do you go to bar? I mean, what do you do in 2025? And I don't mean just you, but I mean in general.

[Corey Richards]

I mean, I think. Look, I'm not saying dating apps are bad. I'm just saying they don't make me feel very good. And I've done them, and I've met marvelous women on dating apps, and they can work. They really can. I think it's just limiting your time if you're not gonna do that. I do go to bars, but I don't really drink a lot. I go to bars, and I'll take a book. I don't generally meet people that way. Again, I wish I had a solution. I think more than anything, it's putting yourself in positions that. Where you're going to meet people that you might click with. And that could be. You know, I go down to the beach all the time because I live in Venice and I walk along the boardwalk and, you know, volleyball clubs, running clubs, you know, find something that you like to do that fills you up and then pursue that. And there are going to be communities around that that you find people in, you know, but it is hard right now. It's very, very hard, especially as. Because, as Scott Galloway points out, like, most women are trying to date the top 1% of men. And so that leaves 99% of men furious and horny and like, you know, and so they gravitate towards porn, and then they're on their phones more and more, and it just drives. So I also think there's some element.

[Dan Buettner]

Of.

[Corey Richards]

On the female side. And of course, we're talking about heteronormative relationships here to be more open to different, you know, to different guys. That's not to say go for people you're not attracted to, it's not to say, here's the thing. Imagine a world in which we were choosing people based on the quality of their heart.

[Dan Buettner]

That'd be a nice world.

[Corey Richards]

It would be a great world. Can we do that? Individually? We sure can. But we still need to be attracted to people and we still need to, you know.

[Dan Buettner]

But, but, but money, wealth and powers, you know, that's what we are. We're conditioned to inspire.

[Corey Richards]

That's conditioned. We are conditioned by that. And there's some biological reason for that. But imagine if we chose. Somebody said this to me recently, they said, surround yourself with people who choose to be in your life based on the quality of their heart, not how you show up in the world. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

So good people just.

[Corey Richards]

They're choosing you because they're good people, not because you're Dan Buettner or you're occupying some place. And if we were to again, pay attention to our nervous system around people, how does this person really make me feel? And are our values aligned? Great. The rest, we can fucking figure it out. But it's. We're in a, you know, birth rates are going down, like all of it. It's an issue. And again, I don't have a clear solution for it.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, let's talk about solutions you do have. You've gone through this incredibly rich life of both hardship and great peaks in many ways. And what, what would you say are the top three best piece of advices you could give to other people based on what you learn, the hard learned lessons that you've learned in life?

[Corey Richards]

First and foremost, everything is storytelling. Every single thing you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, and even in.

[Dan Buettner]

Your dreams, unpack that. What do you mean by everything is storytelling?

[Corey Richards]

You wake up and you tell yourself a story.

[Dan Buettner]

Oatmeal's not storytelling.

[Corey Richards]

Oh. Actually, I could probably figure out a way to make that into two story.

[Dan Buettner]

You'd probably make it a cover story.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you just complicated it.

[Dan Buettner]

But I'm sorry.

[Corey Richards]

Okay.

[Dan Buettner]

You were on a good rip.

[Corey Richards]

I'm sorry, it's. Everything is storytelling. So you wake up in the morning and you tell yourself a story about who you are, about the world you live in.

[Dan Buettner]

I see. Okay.

[Corey Richards]

And a lot of that might not actually be accurate. One of the greatest pieces of advice I ever got was be mindful of the story you're telling in the moment. Right. And really question it.

[Dan Buettner]

Of yourself or of the rest of everything.

[Corey Richards]

Like of all of it. Okay. Somebody cuts you off in traffic. Let's just take that one. Right. That person's an asshole.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

There, you know, you take a crowbar.

[Dan Buettner]

To their windshield, Right?

[Corey Richards]

Exactly. We don't know what's going on in their world. We don't know if there's a pregnant person in the car, if their dad has just died, if there's some. We don't know if they're having a heart attack. All that we know is that they cut you off. That's it. So take agency over the stories you're telling.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Corey Richards]

That's a huge one. And be willing to question your own narratives around everything. We get entrenched in our stories and believe that they're true. A lot of them aren't. Right. It's the old Marcus Aurelius. Like, you can't control what happens in the world around you, but you can control the story you tell about it.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Corey Richards]

Right. That's a huge one.

[Dan Buettner]

The.

[Corey Richards]

The other one that I really. If you want a very concise, sort of scientific, fun takeaway.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Corey Richards]

It's all about the exhale.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, here we go.

[Corey Richards]

Okay.

[Dan Buettner]

Sounds very yoga.

[Corey Richards]

Well, it's all about the exhale, meaning we're told to take three deep breaths. Okay. If you take three deep breaths and they're gasping breaths, that's actually signaling your nervous system that something is about to go wrong and you need to get ready to fight.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

Extend the exhale. Make it much, much. There you go. Make it longer. And what you're doing is you're building the CO2 in your system, which sends a signal up your vagus nerve, which tells your brain that it can relax and switch into the parasympathetic nervous system.

[Dan Buettner]

Wow.

[Corey Richards]

It's all about the exhale. It's not about the inhale.

[Dan Buettner]

We had Laird Hamilton on the podcast not too long ago. He was saying the exact same thing.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

He was saying that nose breathing at night increases the CO2 buildup and therefore triggers the parasympathetic nervous system, and you sleep better. I never knew that is actually. And, you know, it kind of. Kind of glossed over my brain a little bit without sinking in too much. But now that you're bringing it up a second time, it's really something I'm paying attention to.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, it's all. It's all about the exhale.

[Dan Buettner]

All about the exhale and build up that carbon dioxide. But I'm sure there's some sort of a, you know, yoga or.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of breath work.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Just breathe. Which is really the exhale.

[Corey Richards]

It's the exhale. It's all about the exhale. One of the things that I. That I also. I mean, there's a lot of points that I can say, but I don't actually like adding more for people to do. I think that we live in a. What's your five takeaway world? And I want to give you takeaways, but that's okay if we reduce it to something more simple, where it doesn't feel burdensome. And they have profound impact. They're simple things. And these are things I do every day. Okay. I let people in and traffic. I do.

[Dan Buettner]

I love that.

[Corey Richards]

And that makes me feel.

[Dan Buettner]

It's very non la. But good.

[Corey Richards]

It makes me feel good.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Right. When somebody lets me in in traffic, I wave. When I walk down the street, I make a conscious effort to smile at people. They don't have to smile back.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

It's not about a return. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

I make a conscious effort to. When I say this, this might sound funny, to make eye contact with a friendly dog. I do. I try to make eye contact and I appreciate that playfulness. These are very, very simple things that we can do throughout our day. What' interesting is they might not make you feel better in the moment.

[Dan Buettner]

No. I really love the letting people into traffic. Yeah, that's such a.

[Corey Richards]

But, but, but what it does is it makes other people feel better and.

[Dan Buettner]

It makes you feel better.

[Corey Richards]

It does, but it's not going to necessarily lift you out of depression, but it can help. Right?

[Dan Buettner]

I have a bro, my brother Nick, my younger brother. When people ask him how he is.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

He has his patterns. This is the best day of my whole entire life. The best day of my whole entire life. And I've adopted that. And people feel better. It just made me feel better.

[Corey Richards]

Exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

And you know, in a way, a lot of people, they answer, how are you? And right away, well, my back hurts. Or, you know, I'm sick of this goddamn political situation.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

But to say I've never been better in my whole entire life, it all of a sudden frames your life just by saying it, you feel a little bit better. And it makes you focus on. At the end of the day, even when your life is at its worth, there's still good parts about it.

[Corey Richards]

That's the other thing. That's that all or nothing thinking. Look, the ultimate reframe for me is if you turn the narrative into acts of service. You are constantly in the privilege of doing something. Meaning I fucking hate my job. You might. That might be True. But when you reframe life as I get to go to work and how, you know, like, I really get to do this. I get to make money. I get. I get to be depressed. That's a funny thing to say, but I get to be depressed. I get to have that experience. And that's. That's a shift into gratitude, out of which you rot.

[Dan Buettner]

Your art.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Dan Buettner]

The raw material of your. Yeah, like you said before, if you. If you weren't depressed, you wouldn't. You wouldn't be the success you are, which is. Yeah, it's catch 22.

[Corey Richards]

It's a catch 22. And also, you know, the other thing is just we don't always have to be doing the work. Life is savage, man. Life is savage. You could, like, in this wellness community we're always trying to biohack our way into. It's fine. It's okay. Like, you woke up this morning. That is enough work. Sometimes you don't have to just, like, be doing it all the time. And also be really mindful when you're on social media that as much as half of the mental health advice you're getting is wrong or misleading.

[Dan Buettner]

So it's 50. 50.

[Corey Richards]

It's 50. It's like a weatherman in Maine. Right. So you're. You're going on. We're getting all this mental health advice about narcissism and all that. They're not clinicians. They've heard one thing on Instagram or TikTok, and now they're regurgitating it or they read one book. It's not necessarily good advice. So just take a beat with that.

[Dan Buettner]

Like, I take all my mental health advice from Paris Hilton. Right. Before we run out of time, I do want to talk about. You're really excited about another adventure. Yeah. I don't know how much you can talk about or want to talk about it, but.

[Corey Richards]

Well, I mean, I'll talk about it in very loose terms, and thanks for bringing it up. You know, recently I. I had. I had a very rough Spring in 2025 where I lost my dad, and I went through a significant heartbreak, and I, you know, I've felt always a little stifled by photography, and so I moved into writing and I really. It was a shift towards how do I give back to the world and how do I create something that allows a huge amount of giving and access to mental health and mental health research? So I've started a company that will be launching officially end of the year or beginning of next year that is really all about that. Or that's the soul of it. But yeah, it's really about embracing the totality of, of your, your messiness, your wholeness and celebrating life and in many ways being, being careful. Well. And supporting suicide prevention and things like that. Because, because this life is so precious. I'm not going to say much more.

[Dan Buettner]

All right.

[Corey Richards]

But stay tuned because it's, I am fired up about it.

[Dan Buettner]

Until then.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

The Color of Everything. You know, it's one of these books. Corey gave it to, to me, when friend sends you a book, you just kind of cringe because you say, God, this is probably going to suck. And I'm going to read it and I'm going to have to say nice things about it. And then I, I started reading it and kept reading it and I realized it, it is such poetic, beautiful writing with a great message. So the Color of Everything. You've been out speaking about it. People can book you and bipolar the photographs that really capture well, significant cross section of your work with National Geographic and over time. And it's stunningly beautiful. It should have a place in everybody's living room. And Corey, you're a great friend. You're a talented photographer and writer, and I think you have so many life lessons, even though you're not a PhD. You've, you've experienced it and you studied it and you metabolized it in a way. And you don't deliver the advice in bullet points. You deliver it in stories. And those stories are powerful. And thank you for sharing them with us.

[Corey Richards]

Thanks. Thanks for having me here. Let's, I, I, I just value our friendship so much. So let's do it again.

[Dan Buettner]

Corey, on the Dan Buettner podcast, we give this T shirt here extra points for vulnerability. And nobody's earned these points better than you on this podcast. I love it. Thank you. Please wear this. Put it on your dating profile.

[Corey Richards]

I will, I will. That's, that's, I'm definitely gonna get more Raya dates with this.

[Dan Buettner]

For sure. Yeah, it's gonna be great. I've never had a better comment. Compliment. Yeah. Awesome, buddy. Thank you very much.

[Corey Richards]

Thanks, Dan. I love you.

[Dan Buettner]

Love you, man.