Friendship and Purpose with Laura Dern

Summary

The Dan Buettner Podcast
Episode: Friendship and Purpose with Laura Dern
Date: August 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and wide-ranging conversation, Dan Buettner, National Geographic explorer and Blue Zones creator, sits down with acclaimed actress Laura Dern. They explore the foundations of a fulfilling, long life—as illuminated by Buettner's Blue Zones research—through the lens of purpose, service, friendship, stress management, and social issues like healthcare, gun control, and reproductive rights. Dern shares her personal journey and hard-won wisdom, drawing candidly from her own life, family, and decades in a collaborative Hollywood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Purpose, Achievements, and Longevity

• Academy Awards and Longevity:
  • Dan brings up a study suggesting Oscar-winning actors live on average 5.1 years longer ([03:09]).
  • Laura jokingly muses on combining blue zone lifestyle with her Oscar for ultimate longevity:
    • “If we add those together… I live in Iaria with my Oscar.” (Laura, [04:00])
• Accomplishment vs. Purpose:
  • Laura reflects: awards don’t necessarily lower stress or provide satisfaction. Instead, true “arrival” comes from the collective accomplishment and being part of meaningful, collaborative work ([04:36]–[08:31]).
  • She describes her mother’s ceaseless drive despite accolades, highlighting how continuous purpose, not external rewards, fuels well-being.

2. Quiet, Stress, and Self-Reflection

• Welcome & Fear of Stillness:
  • “The thing I run from the most might be the thing that propels me the most.” (Laura, [08:42])
  • Through quiet and meditation, Laura connects with her authentic needs and capacity for giving—shifting her day from “stress of doing” to “love of doing” ([08:52]–[09:56]).
• Purpose as a Stress Antidote:
  • Dan emphasizes that a strong sense of purpose, especially one tied to service and community, is a key longevity factor observed in Blue Zones worldwide ([28:58]–[31:33]).

3. Hollywood, Finances, and Social Equity

• Early Money Disparities:
  • Laura offers a candid story of major wage inequality:
    • “I made ten times less than my co-star” (Laura, [12:58])
  • She discusses the evolution and ongoing struggle for equity, especially gender-based, in the industry.
• Roots and Motivation:
  • Raised by grounded, craftsman-artist parents, Laura was instilled with values centered on storytelling and empathy rather than fame or money ([13:20]–[15:20]).

4. The “Sandwich Generation” and Caregiving Stress

• Juggling Generations:
  • Both Dan and Laura share personal stories about supporting elderly parents and children, underscoring universal stresses of their “sandwich” stage in life ([16:12]–[23:17]).
  • Laura candidly describes the complex practical and emotional realities of elder care—including the lack of adequate union and systemic support ([17:55]).
• Self-Care vs. Other-Care:
  • They challenge the self-care narrative, noting the deeper sense of vitality that comes from service to others instead ([27:06]–[28:30]).

5. Friendship: Depths, Differences, and Longevity

• True Friendship in Hollywood:
  • Laura dispels the myth of purely transactional relationships:
    • “The truest friends you could ever dream up… work and making a show… those friendships lasting to this day…” ([34:53]–[36:16])
  • She recounts life-changing moments supporting and being supported by friends (e.g., Ellen DeGeneres coming out, Reese Witherspoon's gestures during tough times) ([39:18]–[41:26]).
• Female vs. Male Friendship Styles:
  • Laura and Dan contrast men’s group-based friendships versus women’s deeper, emotional connections—possibly contributing to women's greater longevity ([42:36]–[46:40]).

6. Social Policy: Gun Control and Reproductive Rights

• Guns and Life Expectancy:
  • Dan highlights Singapore’s embrace of strict gun laws and dramatic longevity gains compared to the US ([47:35]–[49:50]).
  • Laura advocates for reform, noting the devastating reality of kindergarteners undergoing active shooter drills and the failure of policy to protect children:
    • “These babies, literal babies, are having to simulate a mass school shooting at school.” (Laura, [53:23])
• Finding the “Sweet Spot” on Rights:
  • Laura stresses the need for bipartisan consensus—at least on common-sense regulations like background checks ([55:06]–[56:26]).
  • Vivid anecdote: Laura’s teenage daughter powerfully questions a congressman about safety in schools versus Congressional workplace bans ([56:26]–[57:43]).
• Reproductive Health as a Longevity Issue:
  • Laura and Dan delve into the deep public health ramifications of restricting reproductive healthcare ([62:18]–[69:55]).
  • Laura underscores underreported consequences: maternal mortality due to medical legal paralysis, depletion of OB/GYN resources, and broader jeopardy to women’s health services.
  • Dan relates findings from global health experts showing that investing in maternal and women’s health yields widespread societal longevity and well-being ([69:55]–[71:36]).

7. Personal Resilience, Ancestors, and Healing

• Story of Her Lowest Moment:
  • Laura shares a deeply personal account of turmoil due to a loved one’s addiction and her own emotional collapse ([73:44]–[77:19]).
  • Healing came not from numbing or external advice, but from ancestral connection, faith, and eventually, friendships:
    • “The pain of it gave birth to relying on ancestors and angels… calling out to grandparents and great grandparents… help me.” (Laura, [77:19])
  • Dan links this to Blue Zones rituals of ancestor veneration, particularly in Okinawa ([78:40]).

8. Forgetting to Die—The Blue Zones Ethos

• An Icarian Inspiration and Family Practice:
  • Moved by Dan’s “where people forget to die” article, Laura describes using storytelling and walking as purposeful rituals to inspire and sustain her mother through a health crisis ([82:19]–[86:41]).
  • Their practice resulted in her mother thriving far beyond medical expectations and led to their co-authored memoir:
    • Book Title: Honey Baby Mine by Diane Ladd and Laura Dern ([86:02], [87:41])

9. Ikigai and Life’s Mission

• Origins of “Purpose”:
  • Dan shares how his sense of “ikigai” (reason for living) emerged from an early sense of being different and a drive to see the world ([88:00]–[90:00]).
  • Laura relates this search for purpose to her mother’s journey from small-town Mississippi to Hollywood ([90:00]–[90:21]).
• Ordinary Lives, Extraordinary Purpose:
  • They reflect on “making your own Blue Zone” wherever you live and finding meaning in everyday heroism, referencing It’s a Wonderful Life ([90:30]–[91:14]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the healing power of quiet:

  • “Five minutes of quiet and I've just filled my day with not stress of doing, but love of doing.” — Laura Dern ([09:08])

• On collective achievement:

  • “It's a beautiful collaborative art form. And if you get it right… there is such a sense of achievement because you touch people…” — Laura Dern ([07:00])

• On the myth of Hollywood friendships:

  • “I made ten times less than my co-star.” — Laura Dern ([12:58])
  • “There's nothing surface about the ritual of telling someone who you are and sharing your pain or your joy together.” — Laura Dern ([39:18])

• On stress and caregiving:

  • “I feel very lonely in only one area in my life, which is when I have to make a massive decision for other people, a consequential decision, including about their health.” — Laura Dern ([26:08])

• On service as self-care:

  • “I feel totally alive in the service of.” — Laura Dern ([28:30])
  • “Purpose is this facile word… but we know people who have a true sense of purpose live about eight years longer…” — Dan Buettner ([28:58])

• On gun violence and school safety:

  • “She told me...if a scary man comes, we’re supposed to go into the closet and be really, really quiet.” — Laura Dern ([53:23])

• On reproductive rights and real-world consequences:

  • “There are tragic stories around this country… women, in the pursuit of a beautiful and healthy child being born, lose that child's life and their own life because of these strict laws.” — Laura Dern ([63:25])

• On the “Blue Zones” maxim:

  • “She forgot to die. But the gift of the experience that we share...was, when inspired, inspire others to ask each other the questions.” — Laura Dern ([86:02]–[87:30])
  • “You make your own (Blue Zones).” — Dan Buettner ([91:14])

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Key Timestamps (HH:MM:SS)

• [03:09] – Study: Oscar winners live longer
• [08:42] – Finding power in quiet/meditation
• [12:58] – Hollywood pay disparities for women
• [16:12] – Being the “sandwich generation”
• [26:08] – Laura on the loneliness of making care decisions
• [28:58] – Purpose and longevity: Blue Zones
• [34:53] – True friendships in Hollywood
• [39:18] – Bonding with Ellen DeGeneres in a pivotal cultural moment
• [53:23] – Daughter’s school lockdown drill
• [56:26] – Laura’s daughter confronts congressman on safety
• [63:25] – Reproductive rights, maternal health, and mortality
• [77:19] – Laura’s lowest point: healing through ancestry and faith
• [82:19] – Living “where people forget to die”: caregiving rituals
• [86:02] – “Honey Baby Mine” – the power of storytelling and purpose
• [90:00] – Dan’s tales of finding ikigai
• [91:14] – “You make your own (Blue Zones).”

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Tone & Final Reflections

Offering warmth, honesty, and a dash of humor, Laura Dern and Dan Buettner demonstrate that the ingredients for longevity and true aliveness—deep friendships, mobilized purpose, meaningful work, service, and community—are within reach far beyond Blue Zones. Their stories illuminate universal struggles and joys, inviting listeners to rethink both self-care and societal priorities for a life “well-lived,” wherever you make your home.

Transcript

[Dan Buettner]

Lemonade.

[Laura Dern]

I'm starting to learn that the thing I run from the most might be the thing that propels me the most. You're together, saying, hold my hands, because it's a very emotional scene, and I'm falling apart here, and those people are with you forever. Is purpose alone the key to longevity?

[Dan Buettner]

One thing that I know works is, you know, for this podcast, I like to bring the best experts to the science of longevity and the science of living better. But this next guest is a real treat. She hasn't spent a lot of time studying. She spent a lot of times living and experiencing. She probably has metabolized more of the human experience, some pain, but a lot of just really big living here in Hollywood and distilled it all down to a number of actionables that are shockingly similar to the same things I discovered in Blue Zones. The power of friendships. Do people in Hollywood have true friends? The ability to tap into ancestors. And finally, the ability to get in touch with yourself to solve problems. Laura Dern is full of not only great movies, but great life experience, all of which she shares with you. Now. You really are one of my favorite human beings. And not because you're famous, though. That's a fun thing to know about.

[Laura Dern]

You, but I thought that's why you liked it.

[Dan Buettner]

But our friend, our producer, Pat Wyman, was just telling us the story of meeting Steven Spielberg on the set of Schindler's List, and him telling Pat that contrary to popular belief, it's not the jerks who call themselves that get ahead in Hollywood. It's the nice people. And you are the consummate example of that, because I've had the privilege of knowing you several years now, and you are one of the nicest people. You're kind to everybody, and you're especially gracious to your friend, and you're hugely successful. And I'm just gonna tell this story. The other day, I saw you indoors, and you were putting your sunglasses on indoors. And I said, why are you putting your sunglasses on indoors? And you looked at me very serious. You said, well, I'm famous. And I thought you were joking. I started cracking up, and I go, oh, yeah, that's right. You are famous. But when you're sitting with you, you don't feel like you're sitting with the movie star. And here you. I tried to count them last night. It was like over 100 movies and television shows, and you've won Golden Globes and Academy Awards, but you're humble, and it's just. It's Just so. I just feel so lucky. I don't know. Okay, so I'm not gonna embarrass you anymore, but I. I want to start with an interesting fact that I want you to react to.

[Laura Dern]

Okay. And then I get to compliment you later. Right. That's.

[Dan Buettner]

That's the last 45 minutes, actually. So you win an Academy Award for Marriage Story, and it turns out there's a. I don't know if the study's known in Hollywood, but a study that followed 2,111 actors, and it measured the actors that won an Academy Award compared to the actors who didn't, and it found that the actors who won the Academy Award will live, on average, 5.1 years longer than normal. Oh, my God.

[Laura Dern]

This is amazing news.

[Dan Buettner]

So winning the Academy Award is better than even eating beans or moving to a blue zone.

[Laura Dern]

Hold on.

[Dan Buettner]

Maybe blue.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Moving to blue zone gives you another 5.5.

[Laura Dern]

Okay, perfect. So if we add those together.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. It stands.

[Laura Dern]

I live in Iaria with my Oscar.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Laura Dern]

And that's just going to be.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes, you'll be 150.

[Laura Dern]

Some olive oil, be of service.

[Dan Buettner]

But I'm wondering if you think, has it worked? Do you think winning the Academy has made you feel like you've arrived, so you don't have as much stress, or do people treat you differently, or are you in a position to be more generous? Or do you think there's anything to that?

[Laura Dern]

Here's a challenge for you.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, already.

[Laura Dern]

One study I would find very interesting is when people are given an. You know, are awarded or trophied at the highest measure of success in their field, their plaque, their Olympic medal, their award of whatever variety, if it gives them an opportunity to rest on their laurels, feel pride, feel humility, and think job well done. Or does it create a sense of stress and drive to have to climb the next mountain, do it again? And I've only heard that the ladder, I've only heard from people. Now what do I do? Now I've got to do this. Now I want to do that Now I want to challenge myself in these different ways. Positive, you know, challenges. But because you are our longevity guru, and I'm always asking you questions in all that you're studying and teaching us. When I look at my parents, who are extraordinary actors, I was just telling you this the other day, and I talked to my mom about her now in her late 80s, about her achievements, she doesn't want to spend one minute thinking about them. She hasn't given them to herself. She's just driven for the next thing. The gift as a daughter in that is she has purpose. The gift in that is she's driven to get to work and keep her body healthy so that she can do these things. That is her drive, and that is a good thing. But I would dare say, I think her stress level is. Is constant because she never gives herself a moment of joy or pride in what she has accomplished. Or, you know, like, do you think.

[Dan Buettner]

If she would have won an Academy Award, that stress level would be lower and therefore.

[Laura Dern]

No. And Golden Globes. She's won the British Academy Award. She's won this award, that award. And it's always like, well, there's another award or another movie or another character or so. I don't think so. And certainly for me, anytime I've done something I'm proud of, it's never about an award. I think it's about an accomplishment. So if I've been part of a film that I think is truly a masterful film, it's a collective, right? Because it is such a collaborative art movies. I mean, as a writer, as a researcher, you think, wow, I've achieved this thing. But I get to do this job where 150 of us, maybe, who don't know each other, go to some small town, kind of move in together like summer camp to tell one story, to make one piece of art, and we all have different crafts, and that's such a beautiful collaborative art form. And if you get it right, like, it's. There is such a sense of achievement because you touch people with it or you make them laugh or you move them, or you tell a story that matters in the world and that feels amazing and only then drives you to want to do something that's incredibly opposite or play a new kind of character that you've never explored before. So for me, but again, I haven't held an Oscar while eating beans in a blue zone. And so that might. That might be the moment when I really excited, accept that this is giving me extra years.

[Dan Buettner]

Does stress propel you along even after you've won these big awards? Or is there something else that keeps you on purpose, so to speak?

[Laura Dern]

I'm starting to learn that the thing I run from the most might be the thing that propels me the most.

[Dan Buettner]

Interesting, which is quiet.

[Laura Dern]

I get quiet in the morning if I give myself time to meditate. And in the quiet, I actually remember my dream. And the dream is attached to an emotional conversation that I actually haven't had in life, but I have with someone I love in the dream. And that propels me to think about being more truthful in my daily life or telling that person who I haven't seen in a while that I love them or appreciate them or at least makes me think about a story that I haven't told or influenced a story I should tell or be in service to a cause or an issue I care about. You know, check on loved ones in a new way. And I think, my God, five minutes of quiet and I've just filled my day with not stress of doing, but love of doing, the love of giving and checking in and writing or creating. So. But I run from quiet run.

[Dan Buettner]

And that's where you get most energized.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, what you just said there, it just seems so antithetical to what I think I believed about Hollywood and movie stars. You know, in my mind, what drove actors to work really hard and keep themselves beautiful and. And network themselves to the right place was fame, and it was attention and wealth and. Is that stuff important to you? Has it ever been.

[Laura Dern]

Money wasn't even as important as it should have been when I was younger because I was raised to believe that artists don't make money. But when you start taking care of your loved ones, becoming a mother, you know, in the sandwich generation, becoming a daughter of parents who deserve the support and need the support, you know, suddenly, yeah, money starts to matter to all of us when we need to care for more people and not just ourself. And I've tried to participate in shifting that narrative that, like, there should be equity for artists. And I see that because my parents deserve that and my friends deserve that. And when I was growing up, my parents and their friends were in a community where they were the lesser paid of a community. You know, like the actors were in apartment buildings and we would go to the studio head's house or even the director's house, the swimming pool. And as a little kid, you start to notice, right? Oh, so acting is a.

[Dan Buettner]

And your parents are famous. I mean, say their names.

[Laura Dern]

Very famous. Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd. And this was at the height of success. And, you know, at that time, you could star in movies until the blockbuster. You could star in many movies and, you know, have a median income and, you know, be comfortable, and that's luxury. I think a lot of people, particularly in terms of gender equity, women in this industry have fought to question, you know, why if I'm working the same amount of days playing an equal role to my costar is this man getting, I Know, everyone talked about double the amount, but in my case, I was like, wow, double the amount? Is that true? And I called a very good friend of ours who's an actor, and we had done a movie together, and he was, of course, shocked and so inspired by this that he's really looked out for his fellow female actors since then.

[Dan Buettner]

Wow.

[Laura Dern]

But I said, hey, remember when we did that movie? Like, we worked the same days. We were the two stars of the movie. And I was trying to think, did I make half of what you made? And I realized you made ten times what I made.

[Dan Buettner]

No way.

[Laura Dern]

Ten times. And we. And then you kind of were famous.

[Dan Buettner]

Too, if it's who I think you're talking about.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. You know, equally successful and meant, you know, an equal amount to the film and the filmmaker, blah, blah. So it's. You know, there have been a lot of changes in that area, but when it comes to the question of celebrity and fame, this is where I get so lucky, Dan. Because I was raised by craftspeople who just love their job. They. My mom came from a tiny town in Mississippi. My dad came from a legal political family in Chicago. Totally different backgrounds, but neither of them anything to do with the arts, and. Except my father's great uncle, who was Archibald MacLeish at the time, the poet laureate, an, you know, extraordinary writer. But they found, you know, unlike me, who was raised around it, they found this path to, like, falling in love with acting. And they studied, and that was a sacrifice job where family were disappointed. You had to drive a cab in New York City and hope to have a meal that night just to maybe get three lines in a play and to be raised by those parents who have never thought about the COVID of a magazine or, you know, fame or red carpets or stylists or Instagram followers. You know, those parents taught me about their love of storytelling and particular storytelling, which I think links to your storytelling, and I think it's why I love talking to you about everything you do. Is they're interested in the gray. They're interested in broken people. They're interested in helping us find empathy for someone we would otherwise pass by on the street with disinterest.

[Dan Buettner]

But, you know, you and I are also in this, a similar situation that we have. My great treasures are my mom and dad, Roger and Dolly, who are older. They're about the same age as your dad, late 80s, 90, and kids. The other great treasures. And we're sandwiched in between. And, I mean, for most of us, that is an enormously stressful situation because you're worried about both generations. The one below, they're not out of school, not out of college. And you got older people have health problems and we're getting from the top and the bottom. And I'm just wondering if it's different in Hollywood or if it's different for you managing this bifurcation of responsibilities.

[Laura Dern]

No, I mean, I think whoever we are, wherever we are, we are in it. And it's joyful and hellish and all the things when you feel the fear and worry of the people you love, you know, I am also aware of my privilege. I'm aware of my good fortune that, you know, for people who have endless funds, they have an incredible luxury to do anything for their elders they would want set them up at home with around the clock caregivers. What a luxury is that for those of us who know the world of assisted living and trying to get help or getting insurance to cover hospice care and the, the battle of elder care support in this country is the greatest shame in the United States. Like I'm so horrified by it now that I'm living it and watching it. And as a union member of my actors union and as a daughter of almost 70 year union members, they have a union that does not give them health care in these years if they do not work for. Yeah, if in the next 18 months my parents do not work as actors.

[Dan Buettner]

That are struggling financially after being, you know, household names in America for seven decades.

[Laura Dern]

And most unions cover you when you retire. The actors union does not. And that should change. That's not right.

[Dan Buettner]

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[Laura Dern]

He makes it sound so heroic.

[Dan Buettner]

It is. Laura, as you well know by now, I'm just a reporter. I got no horse before we start. No, but it's genuinely impressive. And you're raising two wonderful kids. I want to talk about them too, in a minute. But I'm wondering how you manage the stress because everywhere in America, increasingly, I would argue we are in it living in an increasingly stressful world. And yours is, is, you know, in some ways greater stress because the, the public is looking at you and you, you multi million dollar budgets that with a camera focused on you and if you screw it up, it's 150 people's income. How do you manage the stress and yet seem vital?

[Laura Dern]

And I'm so much more stressed right now. Thanks, Dan.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, it's a damn Peter collective. That may be what cracks it. You know, she had a nervous breakdown.

[Laura Dern]

In the middle of a podcast.

[Dan Buettner]

Maybe a ratings pop.

[Laura Dern]

Okay, let me fake one at least.

[Dan Buettner]

Let's see. Just a little neighbor's breakdown.

[Laura Dern]

I'll do it before the end.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, great.

[Laura Dern]

I want to surprise you. When it comes, I'll think it's real.

[Dan Buettner]

But.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah, I remember when I had babies and was working and felt overwhelmed. How am I gonna do it? And sleepless. And all the things every human with a newborn thinks and knows deeply. And children, you know, that go through their own journeys in life and health and all the things that they have to walk through because this idea that kids are lucky, kids aren't going through stuff, particularly now, culturally. I mean, they are going through things we can't imagine. Adolescents, teenagers globally right now are in a, as they were calling it, the other pandemic, which is the mental health crisis among youth globally. And so you're trying to parent and work and do all the things that you're doing and you think it's going to be your most stressful years. And then you get to this moment we're talking about where there really isn't time to take a breath. You are navigating, going to this parent or that parent or your kid or your job. And I just, I remember the other day in helping my mother and in dealing with a family crisis, I remember thinking, oh wow, I haven't felt this since I had a two year old and a newborn, where I said to myself, okay, do you shower? Do you go for a run? Do you do a little yoga? Do you eat, but you get to pick one. Cause there's just no time. And then we've all had those moments in our life where you can carve out 10 minutes for yourself. And I'm always amazed because I have not balanced this when I see people are like, Laura, you just need to find time for self care. Like an hour of exercise, meditate, eat, have a meal with a friend. And then because you have to take care of you, I'm like, are they kidding me? 10 minutes to exercise, 10 minutes to eat, and hopefully a shower. When you're taking care of loved ones in crisis, you know.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. Don't want to add to the crisis.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. So you know, it's. Yeah, that's true. So trying to navigate that is definitely a dance I haven't figured out. And I'm doing it with other loved ones. My stepfather's kids and I working together now to support him in a crisis. And you know, I am so. I've never had the experience of leaning on a sibling, which is part of this dance at this moment in my life. And it's the first time in his care that because he has children, we're working together to figure out what is the best choice for him. And I was just saying this to you yesterday. I feel very lonely in only one area in my life, which is when I have to make a massive decision for other people, a consequential decision, including about their health.

[Dan Buettner]

I want to say something about this self care. It's this buzzword you hear all the time, but I actually think it's a little bit overrated. And we were at a dinner party last night. We were talking about how many Americans don't feel alive. We live in this world of, I would say, overabundance and over ease. Our grocery store end up on our doorstep. We don't even go to the grocery store anymore. We drive everywhere. We're never in a room that's not either heated or cooled to 72 degrees. There's rich food everywhere. There's electronic distractions all the time. And to take the focus off of yourself and put it on your parents, your aging parents, or your children, or a friend in need. And while that might not feel like self care, when do you ever feel more alive than you feel like I'm actually helping. It's not, it's not easy. I'm stressed out and, you know, I haven't even taken my shower. But yet you're doing something for others and you're muscling through discomfort. And in this Weird sort of ways. It's like, holy, wow. I actually feel kind of good in that second when you have a moment.

[Laura Dern]

To yourself, you're absolutely right. I feel totally alive in the service of. And that's a conversation you and I have been having, which is. Is purpose alone the key to longevity, or is purpose tied to being of service an aspect to longevity? That is a key because. Can you share? I mean, I'm so. I'm sure so many of your listeners.

[Dan Buettner]

You hit it right on and we miss it. Purpose is this facile word, I think this overused that people barely understand it. But we know people who have a true sense of purpose live about eight years longer than people who don't. And the way we know that is this very famous scientist named Robert Butler analyzed the writings of people when they were young. And those people who could. Whose writings was laced with meaning or they could sort of articulate their sense of purpose, they were living about eight years longer than people who were rudderless in life. But when it comes to purpose, in all blue zones, there's vocabulary for purpose, but it's not the kind of purpose like, well, I love sports cars or, you know, I collect Pokemon cards or something like that. It is. There's always an element of altruism or philanthropy metabolized into that word. So the Okinawans have ikigai. And ikigai, longest lived women in the history of the world are Okinawans, and they're ikigai. And they could all tell you what their ikigai is, but it almost always has to do with also supporting family or making the community a better place. They're the ones in the community. They're the spiritual leaders. Okinawa, by the way, is one of the few cultures in the world where women are the spiritual leaders, not the men, which probably imparts lower mortality to the kids. Or it's. The men are karate teachers. Karate originated in Okinawa. And that martial art, which is also a discipline and an exercise, is passed down by the men. In Kauai, a place I just visited for my current book, they have this notion of Kuleana. And kuleana is sort of. It's a word that is synonymous with both purpose and responsibility. You cannot break the two apart. And it's very strong. Kauai, by the way, has one of the longest healthy life expectancies in all. All of America. And you see these same sort of theme, themes of purpose. And it doesn't have to do with self enrichment or even self gratification. It has to do about with Using my strengths to make my community better. And it's a big distinction. And the way you're kind of describing your life, it's very similar.

[Laura Dern]

Can you, can you share? Many may know this story, but your friend at 104 making tortillas because I thought that that sense of purpose, but it's tied to responsibility is so beautiful.

[Dan Buettner]

I'll tell a slightly different version. Her name was Panchita. She lived in Nicoya, Costa Rica. And I knew her until she was 109. And she lived by herself, had a very tough life. She woke up every morning and swept her dirt floor. She wore a carnival dress and carnival beads. And when you sat with her, she always sort of touched you. And when you showed up, she said, God blesses me. And her son would. Tommy would come bicycle over to see her every day. And her son was 89. But, but the story I remember of her, we wanted to get an idea of what 109 year old eats for lunch. And I persuaded her to make lunch. And she was a little baffled by the request, but she said okay. And she had a earthen stove and she went and got eggs from her chicken and she patted corn tortillas and she roasted the tortillas and open fire and she prepares this beautiful lunch. And then she stands there and I said, you're gonna. Can you eat it? And she turns to me and she goes, no, that's for you. And here's this dirt floor poor woman, you know, who had two eggs and she insisted that I eat them. And I could tell you three dozen versions of that in all of these blue zones. The, you know, when I think of it, retrospective empathy and helping others is. And discomfort is always a key feature. And it's almost antithetical to the way we're living and the way we're going in America. And it's not that it's bad the way we're going, it's just that I think we're aiming at the wrong targets if we want to feel alive and be alive at 100. So that's the, you know, another blue zone value and insight that we often miss. You know, the anti aging industry is an $84 billion a year industry and has failed to produce even one pill, supplement or intervention that's been shown to slow, stop or reverse aging. It is all we just had one of the greatest doctors in the world on and he said that all these anti aging supplements, to use his word, are bullshit. And I happen to believe that. But one thing I know works is friends People who care about you on a bad day. And your friends, you were telling us, are the same people who appeared on Big Little Lies, you know, who are the most famous and fabulous people in the world. And I'm just wondering, in Hollywood, are friendships transactional or can you really make true friends in this town?

[Laura Dern]

The truest friends you could ever dream up? Being an only child raised by actors in this town, my sisters were the people I worked with. I did my first movie at 11. So I've found in the found family we all find in our life and are blessed to find a huge part of that for many is the workplace or university, you know, where you're put together and then you're together forever because of this great love story you find. And so for me, work and making a show or a movie or whatever it was with, you know, my. Yeah. Dearest girlfriends of my life, you know, I'm lucky to have my best friend from early childhood who still remains and two of my best friends from my school years. And I'm, you know, so I feel like, you know, friendships are also found by the chapters of our lives. But in my case, I've had the incredible good fortune of those friendships lasting to this day, and I expect through a lifetime.

[Dan Buettner]

But, you know, you live in this world, so it's. You just think it's normal. But you have these a list. Celebrities who are seemingly best friends. But do you think they are really best friends?

[Laura Dern]

Well, you know, let's break it down because it's interesting.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Laura Dern]

How?

[Dan Buettner]

Because I think I'm voicing the skepticism of others and not really challenging, but interesting.

[Laura Dern]

But how is a friendship born? Usually like any love story, we find each other at a moment where we allow ourselves, we allow our hearts to crack open. We're in a circumstance where our most vulnerable self shows up. Be that middle school, be that heartbreak, be that going through a deep and true time, you suddenly are more available to being your most honest self. So what would be more profound for the skeptics out there? Dan isn't one. He's just giving voice to that.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes, yes.

[Laura Dern]

I'm just reporting. Yeah. Then, you know, you're playing out a story of women going through the depth of despair together, immense heartbreak. Worry about a child losing a parent, and you're playing out these stories. The only way to the truth is you share your own life with each other. So instead of having a perfunctory friendship with a colleague, you're together, saying, what hurt you the most? When were you that you're most Afraid, hold my hands. Because it's a very emotional scene and I'm falling apart here and. And those people are with you forever. You know, I. Of all the people I think of, and in moments of my life, one of the great privileges I ever had. And even though we don't see each other and, you know, don't regularly have time together, she's always in my heart. Because when Ellen DeGeneres had her television show, not her talk show, but her TV series, Ellen, she made the gorgeous and radically brave choice to come out as her character and herself on national television. And I wanted to support her and played the character that she comes out to. And it was massively impactful and changed everything after that. What's that?

[Dan Buettner]

You were kind of criticized?

[Laura Dern]

Well, yeah, we went through and weird time, security, everything, you know, but I got to be the person that held her hands and looked in her eyes as she said publicly for the first time, I'm gay. And I knew all that she was carrying with that moment. She had shared with me stories of her life, and it was its own ritual. So there is nothing surface about the ritual of telling someone who you are and sharing your pain or your joy together. That's how all these friendships were born. And you don't. No matter what anybody thinks about actors. I remember going out with someone once in my 20s, and he was like, oh, boy, I'm gonna fall in love with you. And actors are great liars. And I absolutely disagree. If you're good at your job, it's cause you don't know anything but telling the truth. And that's how I found these amazing, amazing women in my life. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And has there. Has there been a time in your life where a friend has come to your aid or saved you or.

[Laura Dern]

Throughout my life. Every time. I mean, you know, shout out to amazing Reese Witherspoon. This morning I'm seeing you, which is my great gift, and then going to help my mother with a difficult moment in and around supporting my stepfather in a health crisis. And this morning I wake up and she's sent me something perfect. A beautiful video that's silly and kind and moving and all those things. And just under it says, she show this to your mom.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh.

[Laura Dern]

So it's. You know, when we have friends who want to take care of our parents with us, that's like, that's a friend. That's a friend.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Laura Dern]

So.

[Dan Buettner]

Because she's not going to get anything out of it or it's. It's not transactional, like.

[Laura Dern]

Well, actually, we Are. We do pay her a lot of money.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay. Retainer. Right.

[Laura Dern]

Just because I'm so lonely and I need to feel like I have friends. So I do pay my friends a lot, but they're such good actors, because actors are good liars, that it feels as if they're authentically my friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. It's heartwarming to hear and to get a glimpse into that. Even these people who we think occupy the highest echelons of American culture and their. They're adulated and they're in magazines and on covers and get all these awards, at the end of the day, they're still human. And the way they connect with other humans is the same as janitors do and teachers.

[Laura Dern]

And I have to say, I'm not trying to imply that females have deeper friendships, but traditionally, the men I was raised around, you know, they keep their feelings close to the vest, and they have beautiful and long friendships. But I wouldn't say that my experience witnessing my father's friendships versus my mother's friendships go as deep. They have gone to every Laker game together, and they love each other. You know what I mean? But it's not the same as going through the heartbreak together, the pain of the divorce, the things that I've watched my mother and her friends kind of carry each other through great grief and challenge. And I'm particularly moved watching you in your male friendships because, you know, your friend that we're both close to, that we were with last night, Dean Phillips.

[Dan Buettner]

He won't mind the shout out, but.

[Laura Dern]

Like, there is never a conversation where you guys don't cut right to the deepest core. And I would dare say, if someone ever wanted to do a study on this, that the depth of friendship also is a longevity pill.

[Dan Buettner]

Absolutely. There. There is actually a Robert Wood Johnson study on. On loneliness. And you can actually show up with people and feel lonelier than you are than while you're by yourself then. And the measure of a true friend that relieves loneliness is one who you can count on on a bad day. And so many male friendships there, you know, we're both Vikings fans or we're hunters or fishermen, and, you know, we never really reveal our emotions. We would never cry in front of each other because that would be a sign of weakness or not even necessarily have a really meaningful conversation. And women are much better than that. And there may be some evolutionary rationale that. That, you know, men had to keep emotional distance because we were typically in battle, you know, protecting our village against the. The opposing village or whatever, but women are much better at social connectivity. And it may explain why women in America right now are living about six years longer than men. We actually, we don't exactly know why women, I mean, they're living longer. It might be, you know, estrogen's better than testosterone or women take fewer risks, but it might be that women have better friendships and that's something we ought to pay attention to. And quite honestly, and thank you for saying that about my male friends. One is right here, Pat Weiland, who's sitting right next to us. I'm actually very cognizant in the treasure, which is, which are good friendships. And you know, that much cited Harvard study, that longevity study that followed people since 1925. And the biggest thing to emerge when it comes to happiness and longevity is quality friendships. And that especially in this country, it doesn't, it's not a birthright if you don't work at it, if you're not willing to reciprocate, if you're not willing. I'll bet you Reese gets little videos from you every once in a while too. Or other nice things. It doesn't come naturally. So far better investment in making quality friends than chasing after that disappearing youth or anti aging serums or you know, superfood supplements and that sort of thing. So.

[Laura Dern]

Wow, that's amazing. That's beautiful to know. I think also being an only child, my friendships matter in such a specific way to me because those are my sisters I was telling you about. Belina, my oldest friend, Belena Logan, who I was introduced to at age one. But she.

[Dan Buettner]

What did you guys talk about?

[Laura Dern]

She actually threw a bowl of guacamole on my head and I've never left. But you know, that became my sibling with single moms kind of raising their little girls together. So those friendships. And my mother is an only child and she modeled that for me. Her sisters were her girlfriends that she kept around always. So yes, that's de facto sisters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an extraordinary thing to witness and then get to be part of.

[Dan Buettner]

I want to shift to a slightly different topic that is also very important for life expectancy that I know you're passionate about. And I know ahead of time this is a very controversial topic. But you know, I just in, I did a documentary for Netflix called live to 100 where I named Singapore a six blue zone. Why Singapore? Because in one lifetime they've seen life expectancy jump by 25 years. 25 years of extra life. Since the 1960s, they have the highest healthiest life expectancy in the world. And it is a melting pot. Just like America. They don't have better genes than we do. They don't have superfoods. They don't have magic pills. You pay for your own health care there, like you do in the United States. But one of the things they don't have and we do is guns. Individuals cannot own guns. They're completely illegal and very severe penalties for individuals to own a gun. And last year, they had a really bad year when it comes to gun death. In the entire Nation, there were three gun deaths. Meanwhile, in the United States, we lost 55,000Americans to gun deaths. Love them or hate them, guns are expensive. When it comes to life expectancy, we lose about a half a year of life expectancy in this country to gun death. And for black people, it's closer to four years. So a gun ownership is worse for black people than hamburgers. Eating hamburgers and junk food is in many cases. So, you know, we have a constitutional right to bear arms in this country, and it's a freedom. And, you know, people deserve freedom, but we also have to realize there is a very deep cost in life and the misery that ensues. And I just love to hear about the work you're doing about gun control and why it's important to you.

[Laura Dern]

I've never heard anyone who wants to protect the American people, as you so beautifully just laid out the consequence. I've never heard anyone who wants to advocate for and fight for the safety of the American people bring up arguing constitutional right. I've never heard of someone saying we need to go to everyone's houses and get their guns, which was done in Australia and successfully for many, many years, and no one's gonna have a gun. Anyone who's ever wanted to effect change to protect the American people has said, we have a right to bear arms in this country. It is how we access them and the kind of gun that we should all be having real conversations about. And when you look at the number of NRA members who were in support of an assault weapons ban, it gets really interesting.

[Dan Buettner]

In what way?

[Laura Dern]

That there's an agreement across the line, across parties that, you know, to go deer hunting or protect your family, you don't have to have an AR15, which.

[Dan Buettner]

Is an automatic rifle.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. And if. And if there are weapons that have been used by the military in war, is that the weapon that should be easy access for some 15 year old who then uses it in high school in a mass school shooting? And I've heard the argument, well, you Know, I mean, look at in the uk, there was just some crazy guy with a knife. So let's say we didn't have guns, okay? And tragically there was the attack or stabbing of three individuals, no fatality. Not losing 33 kids in a matter of seconds. And this is the most devastating tragedy as a cultural community that we have not figured out a way to come together. Looking at not only assault weapons bans, how about just background checks, the conversation, continual conversation and debate around background checks, around access to mental health information. When you're talking about youth having access to guns, getting guns, online, gun shows, these are all the conversations that have been had back and forth. Instead of coming together to have the conversation, we were talking about our friend Matthew McConaughey and he and his amazing wife have done some, did some remarkable service for this country in a very centered and grounded way. He, as a Texan who was trained on a gun and given a gun as a young boy, having the conversation around how we are going to keep our communities safe after the tragedy at Uvalde. So much like a few other issues in this country, the tragedy that there is a divide around life expectancy is in insane. The fact that we cannot come together and solve this and protect our own children. You know, I, I remember the, the breaking point for me was when I had a five year old daughter come home to describe to me the simulated lockdown that she had to go through in kindergarten, where you're teaching this little girl in the world to have voice and speak up if you feel afraid or someone's being inappropriate. If there's someone scary, use your voice. You yell, you say stop. You do what you need to do. She comes home and says, mommy, I'm confused. They told me if a scary man were to come in and they lock the door, we're supposed to go into the closet and be open really, really quiet and say nothing. The terror, don't use your voice, Be silent so we can't find you. But you said if someone did something, you know, to yell or say stop or, you know, you're just like, what is happening? And that these babies, literal babies, are having to simulate a mass school shooting at school.

[Dan Buettner]

So what, what's the sweet spot you, you, you've marinated in the, in the, the research and the issues. What's the sweet spot between freedom to bear arms and eliminating the unnecessary death? What, what, what? Is there a law? Is there a tax, is there a bringing people together to just talk about it?

[Laura Dern]

I think bringing people together to agree, obviously Would be hard to get people.

[Dan Buettner]

To agree on anything these days.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. Because it, you know, tragically, we've been waiting, and this is a responsibility of both parties in U.S. government. There has never been a moment when we've been able to agree even on access to guns. You know, again, online access, gun shows and background checks. So even starting there, separate from an assault weapons ban. My daughter with Congressman Dean Phillips, when we were walking around at the Congressional building with many families from around the country who'd gone through great tragedy, primarily due to school shootings, I was so impressed by my daughter talking to a very conservative congressman. And he said, you know, assault weapons, that's never going to happen. Never in our lifetime. If you want to talk about background checks, maybe we'll eventually, you know, that's a conversation we can continue to have. How can we have more restrictions to protect people? Because no smart, safe gun owner has ever had a problem waiting 14 days to access a gun. No hunter is associated with that. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Laura Dern]

So why suddenly can anybody walk into anywhere, go to a gun show and get a gun and, you know, even a minor and all the issues that have happened. And so this man was very confronting with my daughter. She was 17 at the time. And he was saying, assault weapons, there aren't more. Which is always the case. You know, there aren't more deaths because of assault weapons, which is an insane concept and untrue. But he started combating her with his facts to teach the little girl about why that's never gonna happen. And she said, okay, I hear you. I have one question. This is your place of business, right? And he said, yeah. She said, and this town is your place of business? Washington, D.C. he said, yes. She goes, and you want to be safe when you go to work, right? He said, yes. She said, do you think I have the right to feel safe when I go to school? And he said, yes. She goes, okay. It's interesting that D.C. has an assault weapons ban.

[Dan Buettner]

And I can't bring an assault rifle to your work.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. So there is an assault weapons ban at the home of our country.

[Dan Buettner]

Wow.

[Laura Dern]

But our country is not protecting its children with the same.

[Dan Buettner]

Do as I say, not as I do.

[Laura Dern]

So I think as a country, we need to ask that question. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

That is a big one.

[Laura Dern]

Why is it there? Who started? How did that happen? Because assault weapons are safe. So it's, you know, I was very impressed by her, that, what a smart.

[Dan Buettner]

Little girl, you know, big girl now.

[Laura Dern]

But.

[Dan Buettner]

But that's so clever. She's very calm headed about it too.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah, but it's, you know, it's the same conversation we are having as a country in every area. You know why? Because it's something you want with your own values. You want your own freedoms, you want your own freedom of religion, you want your own freedom of choice. But you want to make sure all Planned Parenthoods close, which means if you are in an underserved community, your mother, your sister, your daughter doesn't have access to free breast cancer screening or a birth control conversation to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. And so it's always confused me, and I feel like it's because money has been made on division in this country, and so we keep it instead of trying to figure out as a collective how we'd be a far more successful nation.

[Dan Buettner]

I've been writing about happiness for National Geographic for the past 15 years. Wrote a cover story, wrote a book called the Blue Zones of Happiness. And I found that most of it really delivers. Happiness is all about our environment. Perhaps the most important decision you make is where you choose to live and the home or homes that you live in. And the other important strategy for happiness is to have enough money so you feel financially secure. Not you don't necessarily need a lot of money to buy lots of things, but to be able to sleep well at night. And my strategy for doing both was to buy a second home for my family. A place where I can bike and I can row my boat and downshift, but knowing that I can also afford it by hosting it on Airbnb. And it was amazing what I discovered. So your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host upgrade your environment and we'll see you when you're 100. This is an ad by BetterHelp. You know, I find that if I'm trying to work through something in my head, it just sort of spins around like a mouse wheel and doesn't go far. I don't suffer from depression or anxiety like lots of people do. And I know therapy is really helpful for them. But where therapy has been super helpful for me is making tough decisions. I recently went through one. It was many months, and it wasn't until I talked it out with somebody, somebody who knew what they were doing, that I made the decision was like a thousand pound elephant jumping off of my back. And I was able to get on with life. So I'm a big fan with therapy. I'm a big fan of online therapy. I think it's one of the best investments we can make as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with better help our listeners get 10 off their first month at betterhelp.com livebetterlonger that's betterhelp.com livebetterlongER this is Segue to your other big passion, reproductive rights.

[Laura Dern]

What is my other big passion?

[Dan Buettner]

Well, I mean, yes. Well, I actually did a little research on that. So by many metrics, Massachusetts has the best sort of laws and programs and policies for reproductive rights and Mississippi has the worst. And there's a people in Massachusetts live about eight years longer than people in Mississippi. And there's probably a correlation. But I know you spend a lot of time and you spend a lot of your sort of personal equity promoting these reproductive rights. What are the most important things we should be focused on and what exactly does that mean to you, by the way?

[Laura Dern]

Well, the freedom to choose is at its core, of course, you know, if we are going to protect constitutional rights, then I dare say the freedom of choosing your religion is also the freedom to make choices based on your personal beliefs, your religious beliefs, what you want to do in your healthcare choices. But right now in this country, I think if every American, just as they're looking at how the impact of gun violence in this country is affecting longevity, we should look at, you know, what it has meant even just in these recent few years and the question of overturning Roe versus Wade, what that choice has meant in women's mortality rates in this country. And these are not women who are.

[Dan Buettner]

Trying to connect those dots for us because I don't.

[Laura Dern]

Yes, I don't think so. Women. And there are many cases in Texas court right now where the bans are so strict. Many women and many lawsuits throughout this country are dealing with the fact that they have gone to an emergency room with what they thought was a healthy pregnancy and they've had an issue in their pregnancy for various reasons any of us can imagine. Their water breaks early. They're having cramping. They go to the emergency room. Now that woman, that individual who has two little babies at home, this is her third pregnancy. She's so excited. It's a girl. She wants this baby. For example, a gentleman shared his story. That was one of the most heartbreaking stories I heard as he sat in the er and the doctors, based on the abortion ban laws and the strictness of what they were allowed to do and not do, sat while that woman bled out and died. So that child was lost and that woman's life was lost and that man was powerless because laws threatened the doctors and threatened anyone's medical ability to take care of this woman in the moment. And so there are tragic stories around this country. And the stories that we're hearing are the same conversations we've had, you know, what about in the case of sexual assault, in the case of incest, you know, if a child should have the right to not carry that baby forward, a 12 year old. And we've heard those stories, and we've heard those stories. And Governor Beshear shared this story in Kentucky, a very brave young woman shared her story preceding the last presidential election about her own tragic assault and inability to have access to an abortion. And then the legalities of crossing state lines now or helping a friend or a family member to have access. But we're not talking about mortality rates in women who want to have that child. And that for anyone who has their own personal opinion about abortion, while demanding what another individual should feel or think spiritually, religiously, personally, emotionally about the best care for that child, which I dare say is unconstitutional based on the freedoms we are supposed to uphold in this country. But if you want to deem your opinion, you also then have to consider that you, your daughter, your sister may, in the pursuit of a beautiful and healthy child being born, lose that child's life and your own life because of these strict laws. And not enough people are talking about it. And it's been a disaster in healthcare and for communities that are underserved. So many obgyns are leaving those areas because it feels or those states. And so now you don't have anybody when you're dealing with breast cancer, cervical cancer, STIs, wanting your child to be taught about healthy birth control. I mean, that's never made sense to me.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, I generally try to limit the topics here on things that make an impact on how long or how well you're going to live. And you rarely think, well, reproductive rights, is that a longevity strategy? It is. And it has a massive impact on an immediate way to the mother, the pregnant mother, but also the child. And by the way, also how the child grows up. There's a very interesting study that came out of the University of Chicago. It was written about in the book Freakonomics that there was this odd drop in the murder rate in America. For some reason, the murder rate dropped by about 50%. And they tried to understand why. Did they bring on new police or were there a new set of laws and they traced it back about 18 years to Roe versus Wade. Why? Because all of a sudden a bunch of unwanted children weren't born. And those unwanted children tended to get less care, less education. They're more likely to grow up and break the law and commit murder. So I like to just stick to the data and not get too much involved in the very passionate things that you work in. But from a very black and white point of view, where my interest is, is these are laws and norms that we ought to be and conversations we ought to be having because it makes America a healthier place that's living longer and better.

[Laura Dern]

Exactly. And for women's healthcare, which is massively underfunded in this country, famously underfunded, Planned Parenthood has been the most remarkable service, particularly in underprivileged areas, for women's health care. Less than 4% of their work has ever been around unwanted pregnancies or abortion. And so this idea that these are abortion warehouses is insanity. No one's looking at the data, looking at the research, and considering how many women's lives have been saved because there was access to an ob gyn, there was access to that kind of healthcare. They were able to get access to a mammogram, discover cancer early. I mean, this is. We are in a massive crisis and we're battling over the wrong things. And it is. You're absolutely right. It's about taking care of each other on a longevity level. I mean, the two issues we've just talked about are about mortality.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. At the end of the day, I'm black and white and very related. I'm writing a book now on health adjusted life expectancy. So where in the world people have the longest lives in full health. And I'm working with this very clever group of scientists out of the University of Washington that have an ocean of data from 130 countries. And I've interviewed a number of the top ones and. And the question I always sort of end with, what are the policies that are going to have the biggest impact on healthy life expectancy in nations? And they all say investing in young mothers. The number one thing, not medical research, not walkability, not new drugs. It's making sure young mothers are. Or in mothers of childbearing age are educated and they have health care service. Why? Because if they have babies who are healthy, who. Who grow up and they get an education, they also grow up to be productive. They grow up to make better voting decisions, and you get this upward spiral that two or three decades later has a massive impact. We See that very clearly in Costa Rica, for example, which has one of the highest life expectancies in the blue zones. And also women were treated equally. Daughters of farmers were being educated in the late 19th century, and that was unheard of.

[Laura Dern]

And the moral pain of a young pregnant girl in this country is actually the conversation that's not being had, which is they're absolutely right to be terrified about the fact that they won't have services, that there are more cuts in those areas than ever before, that God forbid that child ends up in what, the foster care system. How do they have access to food? How do they provide or have any healthcare for their baby? And so if you want to give women the opportunity to feel supported in even having that child, having the ability to have that child, that's a whole other conversation that there's no work and support for in this country. That's beautiful to hear.

[Dan Buettner]

There's a big faction want to see Americans having more babies. Our, our economy needs it. If you just project out. And if we want more babies, they need to be healthy. So I want to turn the conversation to our favorite topic again, which is you.

[Laura Dern]

You.

[Dan Buettner]

I said it first.

[Laura Dern]

You said I could compliment you at the end. So don't. Make sure I have five minutes at.

[Dan Buettner]

Least we'll get to a mutual interest at the end. But so around here we give extra points for vulnerability. So I'm going to ask you to be vulnerable here.

[Laura Dern]

And, and how are the points doled out?

[Dan Buettner]

There is a reward for vulnerability. Very, very coveted reward award that you'll get will soon displace that Academy Award as the, you know, main spot in your mantle. But so I want you to think about the lowest point in your life, the toughest time you've ever had, and tell us as much as you can about it. But even more importantly, tell us what you learned from that.

[Laura Dern]

Years ago, I was at the mercy of someone I cared about going through an extreme mental health crisis and addiction crisis. And unlike other moments in my life that have had grief or loss or breakup or, you know, the pains that we go through in a lifetime of, of loving, this was an experience where the person was clawing and scratching on their way down, and the person that they could target that on was me. And I was hearing some of the cruelest things I'd ever heard. And I really, I was really suffering. And I'd never been married yet. I didn't have kids. I, you know, I was very. It was at the age where I was so independent. It's still the Era of trying to prove to your parents you don't need them. But definitely girlfriends were my savior at this time. Truly saved me. But that lowest moment was my reckoning about being brave. That lowest moment was a moment where I knew that this experience would truly take me down. And interestingly, people started giving me advice by saying, go see my friend who's a wonderful doctor and go talk to this brilliant person who can help. Go call that friend who's my friend who's been through something similar. And I made I think four calls in a 24 hour period. And I got the same advice from all four. And it was medication. I was told, like if I took this pill, you know, I could.

[Dan Buettner]

Was it the same medication?

[Laura Dern]

No. Like it was either to be able to sleep because it was such an upsetting time, or to take some anti anxiety or to, you know, a painkiller or. But no one had advice I could learn from. The idea was if you numb yourself, you'll wake up in a week and there'll be distance from this individual. You can't help. In fact, if you get close, it will be more dangerous. And that already was a wonderful gift because it was like, whoa, what's happened to us? That like numbing is the only advice to how do I handle this level of pain? And so I remember being low, like on the ground. Like when you're, you know, in a ball crying, what's my life? And who am I?

[Dan Buettner]

Because this guy or woman, I don't know what, it was just so insulting to you to relieve his or her own pain.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah, insulting and threatening.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, so you were scared deep.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah, very. So it was a very. It was a dark moment in myriad ways that I can't share details of. But the pain of it gave birth to relying on ancestors and angels and.

[Dan Buettner]

Friends.

[Laura Dern]

Pulling up my bootstraps. Because even though the friends are talking, you can't hear them when you're in so much pain. Like when you're in severe crisis or fear, there's like moment. This was a moment like that for me, which was very unusual. Cause my friends always kind of got through to me. But what was amazing was faith, right? No matter how distant you are from it or how much it is a part of your story, this was a moment where I was turning to kind of an ancestor, ancestral longing to have faith in something greater, whatever that looks like to you. Deep prayer, meditation, you know, asking for help on a deep soul level. But when I say like ancestors, angels, like really calling out to grandparents and great grandparents saying I don't know where I am. Help me.

[Dan Buettner]

By the way, that's big in Okinawa. Ancestor veneration, which longest lived women, every day they remember their ancestors.

[Laura Dern]

Wow.

[Dan Buettner]

And although, you know, my. This. My scientific. Dan Buettner, you know, always questions that, I cannot ignore that. That. That ancestor veneration, that remembering where you came from and tapping into that was undeniably a characteristic of helping them get through life and also thrive in longevity.

[Laura Dern]

A million percent. And something I had relied on. Right. In our American culture. As much as I liked being raised Catholic and loving the rituals and ceremony in early childhood, I really did like them. And I was very fascinated by a particular saint who was my confirmation saint. And I was interested in those things as a little girl, but I hadn't been as connected to really call upon it. But something in that did ground me in a look, where you've come from, you are so much larger than this moment. Right. And I didn't need to, like, I didn't need to be bigger than the person. I didn't need to be better than the person. I didn't need to shame them. They were in pain and they were out of control and at that time, unsafe for me. Right. But what I discovered was, like, I come from a long line of survivors. And this is the beginning, by the way. I was a very young woman, so this was just the beginning of those moments. But when it's your first moment of feeling, you can't survive something, you know that it's too hard. It is amazing what you learn. And I did kind of wake up to calling upon ancestors, of course, calling upon friends, too.

[Dan Buettner]

But did Uncle Archie Ball MacLeish give you a poem?

[Laura Dern]

Not him. Where's that poem? You owe me a poem still, buddy. But a couple of great female elders. I really felt.

[Dan Buettner]

That's a great answer. I've never heard anything like that, but I believe it.

[Laura Dern]

There's data on it, guys.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, well, sometimes you would have to transcend your. Your friends. Okay, so we're winding down because I know you're going to go take care of your parents, but I have two sort of activities or themes I want to touch before we leave. So you and I connected over a story. I wrote a story for the New York Times Magazine about the island where people forget to die. And it profiles an icarian young man who comes to America and finds the American dream and a Chevrolet and a house, the suburbs, and ends up with terminal lung cancer. And he goes back to Icaria to live with his mom. He and his wife and eat this very simple peasant food and reconnect with his religion and reconnect with his friends and drink the wine. And he lives to 104. And when I ask him, you know, as a great scientist, you know, what's your secret to longevity? He just goes, I don't know. I guess I just forgot to die. Which turns out to be the, the most right answer and, and to, and to really sum up the whole ethos of blue zones in a way. But what attracts you to that story and talk about a little bit.

[Laura Dern]

Well, for those who haven't read it, it's such an extraordinary article and piece of writing and now I get to compliment you. Your work is a massive inspiration to me. And the doc series for Netflix, I've talked to you about this. But the empathy as the witness and the listener who's carrying us through this journey is what just penetrates me and teaches me. Because we are not these people, but they are our future. And we're bearing witness to how we can choose to live and love or ignore the signs. And you, in your brilliant wisdom and your incredible research and empathy and storytelling are giving us the roadmap to forgetting to die, to a wife, a life well lived, to a journey filled with deep friendship and a purpose driven life that's connected to responsibility. Like all those keys of doors that you're opening for all of us. And we can go, oh my God, did you see that doc series? That guy, Dan Buettner, oh my God, it was amazing. I want to go to a Blue Zone for like five days. Do you want to go? That is one option, but another option is to feel it. And so that article opened it up for me because just in the title itself, you know, where people forget to die, this idea of that is how I'm caregiving right now. And I've told you, I think of you all the time in my caregiving right now, you know, in how I'm helping my mom instead of Mom, mom, mom, you can't do that. Mom, that's not safe. Okay, you need your inhaler right now. Oh, you need the. You know, instead it's like, let's watch a movie. Oh, my God. You can watch. No, no, no. This TV's not working. It's crazy. We gotta walk to the living room. You know what? Oh, Mom, I'm having a heart. Let's go outside. I need some fresh air. Do you need fresh air? Let's go get some fresh air. How do we keep them moving and walking? And it planted A seed. And we met years ago at Lake Minnetonka. And your work planted a seed where, when my mother was in a health crisis, I made the choice because of that inspiration to say, okay, well, she was diagnosed with a lung disease from environmental exposure to pesticides to glyphosate specifically, like Roundup being one. And they don't know enough about it in terms of how to help you. And so I had asked a specialist here at UCLA what is one thing I can give my mom. He's like, we know that walking will help, you know, her lung capacity and the scarring on her lungs. So I was like, okay. Walking and trying to get my mother to walk was excruciating when she was first diagnosed. By the way, end of this story is a great one. Seven years later, she's made three movies, done a couple TV shows, we wrote a book. She's now writing a memoir. And they gave her three to six months at that time. And so she didn't listen to them.

[Dan Buettner]

She forgot to die.

[Laura Dern]

She forgot to die. But the gift of the experience that we share, shared in our book. And then we made a book out of it.

[Dan Buettner]

Say the name of the book, please.

[Laura Dern]

The book is called Honey Baby Mine, which is something my mom used to sing to me and say to me as a child. And we started walking, and she hated it so much, so I thought, what can give her purpose to walk? So I said, I tell you what, I'm going to record on my phone as we walk, and I'll just pick a new topic every day, and we'll be archiving this for your grandchildren, stories they may never have heard that gave her purpose and responsibility. She had a vocation, and she's an actor, so she loves telling stories.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Laura Dern]

And I said, mom, I've never asked you so many things. And here we are this close. And I never asked you, what was it like going through a divorce with my father? Why did you fall in love with my dad? They divorced when I was, like, 3 years old, so I never knew these things, you know, what made you fall in love with him? What makes you laugh? And she would ask me things. Oh, my God, I don't even know. What's your favorite color? What makes you happy when you wake up? What brings you joy? And so we started having these conversations. We chose to share our conversations in hopes that, when inspired, inspire others to ask each other the questions. Because isn't it amazing we can spend a lifetime together with friendships and never know each other.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Laura Dern]

And in having those conversations she forgot to die.

[Dan Buettner]

That is so beautiful. It's such a quintessentially Blue Zone story.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Say the name of the book. This is one you and your mother wrote together.

[Laura Dern]

And it's called Honey Baby Mine, written by Diane Ladd and her daughter Laura.

[Dan Buettner]

Laura, Laura, Laura.

[Laura Dern]

What's the word in Okinawa that they, that the women elders look for your iki guy. Iki guy.

[Dan Buettner]

Like the creepy looking guy at the end of the bar.

[Laura Dern]

You're iki guy. So here's my question for you is as a boy, now that you've literally broken every record and cycled the world and our greatest teacher in all these areas of Blue Zone, I could have put son on the.

[Dan Buettner]

Laid in my living room.

[Laura Dern]

So as a 10 year old, Dan, did you have an ikigai? What was your mission that you think.

[Dan Buettner]

I can tell you? I can. I'll back into that question. I remember very clearly at 14 I was a cat. Still. I'm a Catholic, you know, I don't go to church as much as my mother wishes I would. But I remember sitting in church in Roseville, Minnesota and seeing the, especially the family in the front pew. I was pretty sure he was our state farm insurance salesman. And he wore like a lime green leisure suit and had his hair combed over like jfk. And his three sons sitting next to him had also similar suits on, hair combed over like jfk. And the mother dressed in some sort of white doily thing and the daughter looking like a copy of her and saying to myself, that's not me. I am going to do something else and I'm going to get out of here in a big way. And not out of, not out of disdain.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Just seeing that what is not me.

[Laura Dern]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

And you know, by the time I was 15, I was already traveling to Spain and traveling to Africa and Hawaii and, and you know, I made, before I did any of this Blue Zones. I was, you know, I bicycled across continents and, and so I couldn't articulate the iggy guy, but I had the general impetus of what would lead me there.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah, that's so beautiful. That's really interesting. My mother is the same in a tiny town in Mississippi, unknowing, she had to leave to be a storyteller. Like she had to leave. She had to go somewhere else and tell stories, but had no idea what that would look like.

[Dan Buettner]

I think it's the ill at ease and the courageous ones that leave and they're no better than the ones that stay home and become the heroes in Their own community.

[Laura Dern]

That's right.

[Dan Buettner]

And those people are often, I think, happier or at least more content.

[Laura Dern]

As George Bailey would teach us It's a Wonderful Life, maybe my favorite movie. And Jimmy Stewart as George Bailey, he tries to leave. He wants to get out of there. He doesn't want to be the insurance salesman, but destiny always plays a part, and he ends up staying. And he creates the most loving, nurturing, forgetting to die, Blue zone community. In fact, I would dare say he turned Pottersville. If anyone watches It's a Wonderful Life into a blue Zone.

[Dan Buettner]

I'll go along with that. Just goes to show you, no matter where you live, you could be in a blues. You make your own blues.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

So, Laura, you are a wonderful human being and a great friend, and I cannot thank you enough for sharing your wisdom and your stories and your vulnerability. And thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Laura Dern]

I'm so happy to be here and have this conversation. All of us watching, all share one thing in common for sure, which is we love Dan Bute and we are so grateful for all that you are teaching us. And so here's d'. Amore. Now, my new fantasy. I started with, I want to go to a blue zone. Now I'm like, I gotta go to all the blue zones. So I've become an addict. I want to learn. Learn their ways.

[Dan Buettner]

That's a good addiction.

[Laura Dern]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Thank you, Laura.

[Laura Dern]

Thank you.