How to Reverse Heart Disease and Live to 100 with Rip Esselstyn

Summary

The Dan Buettner Podcast

Episode: How to Reverse Heart Disease and Live to 100 with Rip Esselstyn

Date: February 19, 2026
Host: Dan Buettner
Guest: Rip Esselstyn

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Overview

In this life-affirming episode, National Geographic explorer and Blue Zones researcher Dan Buettner sits down with Rip Esselstyn—best-selling author, elite athlete, and plant-based diet advocate—to dissect the science and practicalities behind preventing and reversing heart disease. Drawing on the groundbreaking work of Rip's father, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, they explore the concrete benefits of a whole food plant-based diet, bust enduring myths around meat and protein, and offer accessible, no-nonsense advice for anyone striving for a longer, healthier life. The episode, rich in personal stories and scientific evidence, is a vibrant manual for those seeking actionable steps for their own Blue Zone lifestyle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Esselstyn Legacy: Proving Heart Disease Reversal

[03:45-08:21]

• Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn's Study:
  • In the 1980s, Dr. Esselstyn gathered 22 terminal heart disease patients, offering them dietary intervention after being turned down for further heart procedures.
  • Patients adopted a whole food, plant-based diet with no added oils and no nuts.
  • Results: After 5, 10, even 15 years, every adherent patient was alive—outliving expected prognoses by decades, and when they did eventually pass, it was not from heart disease or cancer.
  • A larger follow-up (2014, Journal of Family Practice) found 89% adherence rate to the diet with only 0.8% experiencing a cardiovascular event vs. 67% of those who lapsed had a recurrence or died.
  • Rip: "99.2% went along sailing fine. That's amazing." [08:21]

2. Comparing Diets: Plant-Based vs. Mediterranean

[09:32-11:36]

• The PREDIMED Study (Spain):
  • Compared high-fat Mediterranean diets (with both olive oil and nuts) and a supposedly low-fat version (still 39% of calories from fat).
  • After 4.8 years, high-fat groups continued seeing heart disease and diabetes.
  • Rip: "It's not preventing and reversing this disease whatsoever... Conversely, you look at my father, 100% adherence and you're not going to suffer any more cardiovascular disease."
• Dan: "Perfect is the enemy of good. What would get us most of the way there?" [11:36]
  • Rip: "Eat plant strong just wherever you can... Eat more whole grains, eat more fruits, eat more vegetables, eat more beans." [12:02]

3. Meat, Protein, and Longevity Myths

[13:01-15:42; 32:12-38:48]

• Why Not Eat Meat?
  • Rip: Details the negative effects from meat: saturated fat, cholesterol, heme iron, carnitine leading to TMAO (a molecule that facilitates plaques inside arteries), and highlights a Cleveland Clinic study showing only meat-eaters produced harmful TMAO, not vegetarians/vegans.
  • Dan: "To play devil's advocate, some large studies have shown pescatarians (plant-based, with some fish) live the longest—even longer than vegans." [14:51]
  • Rip: Recognizes value of context—healthiest diet is plant-strong, but having some animal products occasionally, especially for those without chronic disease may be tolerable. For those with health crises, stricter adherence is vital.
  • Rip: "I'm a hardcore kind of person... I want to let them know, listen, if you want to do everything you can to prevent heart disease, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's... be kind of hardcore." [15:42]

Building Muscle on Plant-Based Diets

[32:12-38:48]

• Plant Protein is Sufficient—and Often Superior
  • Rip has not eaten meat since 2001, but remains a world-record-holding athlete.
  • Plant-based sources (beans, whole grains, nuts, seeds) easily meet or exceed protein requirements.
  • Rip: "It's an absolute snap to do that eating whole food plant-based." [33:40]
  • Dan: "If we eat more protein, we're going to build more muscle— to your point, going to the gym is going to build the muscle... As long as you're getting enough protein, which is about half of what you think, you're going to build the muscle." [37:46]
  • Notable quote (Rip): "Think of animal protein as being clunky... and think of plant-based proteins as being sophisticated and absolutely brilliant. They're like the Goldilocks when it comes to [amino acids]." [36:28]

4. Practical Tips for the Average American

[21:18-27:26]

• How to Transition in Real-World Food Environments
  • Rip’s “Plant-Strongifying” Approach:
    • Adapt favorite comfort foods (burgers, pizza, fajitas) with plant-based ingredients.
    • Ex: Black bean burgers instead of cheeseburgers, plant-based pizzas loaded with veggies, fajitas with butternut squash or tofu.
    • Start with whole grain breakfasts, oatmeal loaded with fruit, avocado toast, or plant-based pancakes.
  • On motivation: The importance of culture and taste as motivators—people must like what they eat.

5. Debunking Food Myths: Potatoes, Fiber, and Dairy

Potatoes: [52:47-55:46]

• Potatoes are not “empty carbs”—10% protein, fiber-rich, high in vitamin C and potassium.
• Rip: "Potatoes are a fantastic source of resistant starch fiber... Most potatoes have as much fiber as a bowl of oatmeal, as much vitamin C as an orange, and as much potassium as a banana." [53:21]
• The toppings, not the potatoes, cause health problems.

Fiber & Children’s Nutrition: [57:26-59:40]

• Rip: "There's nothing you can't get from plants that you can get from meat and dairy in a smarter, better way." [57:26]
• Plant-based diets provide nearly all required vitamins except D and B12 (which come from sun/soil), and the richest minerals and fiber. Explains children can thrive and excel athletically on plant-based diets.

Dairy, Calcium, and Vitamin D: [59:40-61:33]

• Rip: "The best source of calcium and the smartest and safest is going to come from your tofu, your green leafies, your whole grains... Vitamin D? Just get some sun, or check your level and supplement if needed." [59:57, 60:20]
• Plant-based milks (like Rip’s brand) are made with whole foods, no emulsifiers/stabilizers, and are fortified for nutritional completeness.

6. The Olive Oil Debate

[41:26-50:04]

• Rip is critical of olive oil as a “health food”—calorie-dense and minimally nutritious.
  • "They're the most calorie-dense food on the planet at 4,000 calories a pound... the last thing Americans need." [41:26]
• Dan’s Take: Prefers moderation, not vilification—olive oil is better than lard, but shouldn't overshadow the issue that most Americans suffer from bigger dietary problems.
  • "On the list of foods to avoid, I would put olive oil in the middle... There's so many, there's so much better villains out there." [43:51]
• Ultimately, both agree moderation works for most, and taste and adherence matter the most for long-term change.

7. Plaque Reversal & Timelines

[30:24-32:04]

• Dan: "Can you reverse that [plaque]? Can you erase it somehow?" [30:36]
  • Rip: "You can actually become heart attack proof in as early as three weeks." [30:41]
  • Studies with PET scans show improved blood flow and plaque stabilization within weeks of changing to a whole food, plant-based diet.

8. Longevity Insights from Blue Zones

[17:15-20:59; 39:02-41:26]

• Residents of Blue Zones live long not by willpower, but because their environments naturally nudge them toward healthier eating and movement.
  • Dan: "Don't try to change your behavior because you'll fail... People in Blue Zones are eating mostly a whole food plant based diet... they eat it because it's delicious." [39:02]
  • Meat is celebratory, rare, and usually ethically farmed in Blue Zones (about 20 lbs/year vs. 240 lbs/year in the US).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reversing heart disease:
  “[My father’s patients] were basically called the walking dead... Five years later, everybody's alive. Ten years later, everybody's alive. Fifteen years later, everybody's alive.” – Rip Esselstyn [06:13]

• On diet adherence:
  "99.2% of the people that were adherent and compliant... went along sailing fine." – Rip Esselstyn [08:34]

• On why meat is a “weak” food:
  "Meat is a weak food. We've been habituated... but meat is loaded with saturated fat, dietary cholesterol, heme iron, and TMAO." – Rip Esselstyn [13:01]

• On Blue Zones:
  “Residents... eat mostly whole food plant-based diets... not because they’re trying, but because the environment makes health the easy choice.” – Dan Buettner [17:15]

• On feeding children:
  "There's nothing that you can't get from plants that you can get from meat and dairy in a smarter, better way." – Rip Esselstyn [57:26]

• On olive oil:
  "Olive oil is not a health food. Now if you need it to make something taste good, absolutely right, I get it." – Rip Esselstyn [49:21]

• On personal drive:
  “As I'm getting older, I'm realizing that if I could let go of the need... to always win, I could have so much more fun.” – Rip Esselstyn [65:42]

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Key Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:45–08:21| Dr. Esselstyn's heart disease reversal clinical trials & results | | 09:32–11:36| PREDIMED study vs. plant-based—why Mediterranean isn’t enough | | 13:01–15:42| The “weakness” of meat and the science behind its risk | | 21:18–27:26| Practical strategies: Plant-strongifying your favorite foods in real life | | 30:24–32:04| Reversing soft plaque and timelines for change | | 32:12–38:48| Building muscle, protein myths, plant-based nutrition | | 41:26–50:04| The olive oil debate: risks, studies, and culinary realities | | 52:47–55:16| The potato: surprising health benefits and tasty, plant-based preparation | | 57:26–59:40| Raising plant-based children, vitamins, minerals, and fiber | | 59:40–61:33| On dairy, calcium, vitamin D, and plant-based milks | | 64:43–68:09| Rip on athletic drive, family expectations, competition, and personal growth |

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Dan Buettner: Inquisitive, pragmatic, sometimes skeptical, always looking for practical solutions for the average listener.
• Rip Esselstyn: Energetic, passionate advocate, science-driven but empathetic to real-life struggles and motivations.

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Takeaways

• Rigorous, well-studied plant-based diets can not only prevent but reverse heart disease—even in advanced cases.
• Progress over perfection: Even partial adherence to plant-based eating, especially if begun earlier in life, has been shown to add a decade to lifespan.
• Traditional protein beliefs are misplaced; plant protein is ample and offers health advantages.
• Simple swaps and culturally familiar foods make all the difference in dietary adherence.
• Don't fear carbohydrates like potatoes—it's the toppings that do harm.
• Fiber, missing from animal products, is crucial for metabolic, digestive, and immunological health.
• Olive oil is not a superfood; taste and caloric density matter for real-world wellness.
• Vibrant health and longevity are more likely to result from environments that make the healthy choice the easy choice, rather than from willpower alone.

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Where to Find Rip Esselstyn

• Instagram: Rip Esselstyn, PlantStrong
• Website: plantstrong.com, liveplantstrong.com
• Products: Available at Whole Foods, some Target and Walmart locations, Amazon, and direct online.

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This episode distills decades of cutting-edge research and real-world experience into accessible wisdom—both a scientific and passionate call to eat "plant-strong" and live longer, better, and more joyfully.

Transcript

[Dan Buettner]

I've written several New York Times bestselling cookbooks on the Blue zones. And the number one question I get is this. What about when I don't have time to cook? That's why I launched Blue Zones Kitchen Ready to Eat Meals. We've now served over 3 million meals made with the same whole food principles I found in the world's longest lived communities. They're maniacally delicious. Find us in your local freezer aisle [e-mail] or Blue Zones eating even on your busiest days. Lemonade.

[Rip Esselstyn]

People somehow think that plant based proteins are inferior to meat. And it is so superior. My father was able to assemble 22 patients. They were basically called the walking dead. They were so sick. Ten years later, everybody's alive.

[Dan Buettner]

It could take 40 or 50 years to develop a soft plaque. Can you reverse that? Can you erase it somehow? Could olive oil actually be bad for us? And could the humble potato be one of the healthiest foods in the world? Well, my next guest, Rip Esselstyn and his family comes from a legendary family who showed us how to not only prevent but reverse heart disease. He was an all American swimmer, he went to the Olympics, and at age 55, he set yet another world record. He is a paragon of, of what you can achieve on a plant based diet. It's going to shock you and I actually believe help you live to 100 plant strong. RIP Esselstyn, you know, I actually want to start with your origins and specifically your dad. Yeah, and your dad, famously Cadwell Estelson, was a Yale trained doctor. He worked at the Cleveland Clinic, oversaw the doctor, and famously wrote this book about reversing and preventing heart disease. And a hugely influential book. And last week, in fact, I was invited to speak at the Harvard Club. And the booker there, the guy who runs it, told me that your father had spoken there before and Harvard called. Your dad was a Yale man and dad never returned the call. Ten days later though, your dad calls the Harvard guy back and says, I don't know who you are, but what do you want? The Harvard guy says, I want you to come speak for the Harvard Club. And your dad said, any opportunity I have to tell Harvard people what to do, I'm in. Amazing man. And really has been one of the, I would say two or three pillars that have given us the manifestly healthiest diets in the world, or at least a permutation of it.

[Rip Esselstyn]

At least.

[Dan Buettner]

He's proven that you can reverse heart disease. He's proven that you can prevent heart disease with a certain diet. And you've carried that forward and have evolved it in your writings, plant strong in your products, in your life, and most interestingly, in your family and the Dan Buettner podcast. We try to give people actionable advice for living longer. And the reason I invited you, and by the way, thank you. Is because I think you not only supremely represent what a plant based, plant strong diet can do for people, but you can. You're also very good at articulating how we can do it. So I guess my first question is, what did your dad prove?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, he proved that you can not only prevent, but you can also reverse heart disease. And so what happened is in 1984, he had this kind of wild hair that. You know what? I bet you that we can actually show that human beings can reverse heart disease. It really hadn't been done before. You know, Dean Ornish was on a parallel path on the other side of the country. And so we asked the cardiology department. My dad was a general surgeon, special Cleveland Clinic. Cleveland Clinic, Yep. Specialized in the thyroid, the parathyroid, and breast cancer. But he figured that in his lifetime, he wouldn't be able to actually demonstrate that you could kind of prevent breast cancer, but he was convinced you could do it with. With heart disease. And by eating to save your heart, you'd save your breast and all these other things. Two. Fertilizer, too. Exactly. So. And it just so happened that one of my best friends in the whole world, a guy named David Sheldon, his father was the head of the cardiology department at the Cleveland Clinic. Wow. So they knew each other. And so my dad basically said, hey, you know, you think there's any way that you could give me some of your, like, patients that have been turned down for a third or fourth, you know, bypass operation, 18th stent, know, something like that. And so over the course of a year and a half, my father was able to assemble 22 patients. They were basically called the walking dead. Right. They were so sick, half the men had what's called end stage heart disease, which means you've got basically under one year to live.

[Dan Buettner]

Wow. And that's because their arteries are so

[Rip Esselstyn]

clogged, usually or systemically, they're just overrun with plaques and cardiovascular disease. So here's the really nifty thing that my father did is he devoted every other Monday to seeing these patients. They'd have to come to him. They would have to keep a food log of everything that they ate. He'd weigh them in, do their blood pressure, do a Lipid draw to see what's going on with their cholesterol levels. They weren't reporting to like, you know, a nurse practitioner or a dietitian. They were reporting directly to him. And so he kept them underneath his wing. Not for six months or a year, five years. They saw him every other week.

[Dan Buettner]

And he's having them eat a plant based diet.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Right, he's having them eat a whole food plant based diet with no added oils. And also, and this, this sounds very extreme, but remember the demographic that we're dealing with here, no nuts either. Right. So no oil, no nuts. I mean, yes, they were getting fats from their whole food plant based and flaxseed meal and chia seeds and things of that nature. But five years later, everybody's alive. Ten years later, everybody's alive. Fifteen years later, everybody's alive. And after five years he's like, you know what? I feel pretty good now. We're going to move you to once a month instead of twice a month. Right. And then after 10 years, it was basically twice.

[Dan Buettner]

Let me just recap this. So you have people who have one year left to live because of cardiovascular disease and they completely get rid of the standard American diet and they eat a whole food plant based diet with very low oil and they live, go on to live another 15 or 20 years.

[Rip Esselstyn]

15, 20 years. And then when they. And because they've, they've died. Right. Most of is a. Original patients.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, that was 40 years ago.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Exactly. But when they did die, they didn't die of cancer and they didn't die of heart disease. Other, you know, ailments when you're up into your late 80s and early 90s. So pretty darn remarkable. And I want to say this about my father's research because I think it's very poignant considering where you're trying to go with your podcast and give people tips on longevity and health span and all that. So he did a follow up study. I mean, he's counseled literally hundreds if not thousands of people. Right. And he did a follow up study that was printed up in the Journal of family practice in 2014. He wanted to see how basically 198 patients that he had counseled had done 3.8 years later, let's just call it four years later. And of 198 people, how many do you think were adherent after let's call it four years? And these are people that have heart disease?

[Dan Buettner]

Yes. Well, I know that in a general population you would probably get 3 or 4%, but these people were facing a death sentence. So I'm guessing they were way more motivated than the average.

[Rip Esselstyn]

You're right, 89% were adherent. So 177 of 198, the 21 people that were not adherent. So of those 21 people, 67%, 13 of the 21 had another cardiovascular event or had died over the course of those four years. This to me, and I want your listeners to hear this loud and clear. Of the remaining 177, one individual had a small stroke. That's it. 99.2% of the people that were adherent and compliant to the whole food plant, strong, you know, minimal oil, all that stuff, 99.2% went along sailing fine. That's amazing. And what I want to compare that to, to make a very, I think, important point for your listeners is this. Have you heard of the predimed study?

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Okay. Predimed study, 7,500 people out of Spain started in 2000. Yep. Basically, Mediterranean diet started in 2003. They stopped it short at 4.8 years because the results were so compelling that there was no reason to continue on. So they took the 7,500 people, they broke them up into three different cohorts. One cohort was a Mediterranean diet with 50 grams of olive oil a day, four tablespoons. The next cohort was Mediterranean diet with 30 grams of nuts, 15 grams of walnuts, seven and a half of almonds, seven half of hazelnuts a day. And then the last group was a Mediterranean diet eating low fat. And the low fat was basically 30% of calories. Now, what we discovered is that the low fat group actually was consuming 39% of their calories from fat, not 30. Now, I say that because at the end of 4.8 years, and here's in order to qualify for the study, the average age was 67 years old. You had to have risk factors like you had to have a BMI 30 or over. You had to have.

[Dan Buettner]

Which 70% of Americans do.

[Rip Esselstyn]

That's true. You had to have 50% had elevated cholesterol, 2/3 had high blood pressure.

[Dan Buettner]

So you're pretty much talking about an average 67 year old American.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Exactly. So this is what happened after 4.8 years. You compare the Mediterranean diet with oil or nuts or 40% fat, you're still coming down with heart disease, with diabetes. It is not preventing and reversing this disease whatsoever. And it's the number one killer of men and women in this country. You know that. Conversely, you look at my father, 100% adherence and you're not going to suffer any more cardiovascular disease. So we know how to halt and arrest this disease? If people are willing to do the work, yes.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, it's no fun to do the work. And most people, if you tell them they got to do work, breakfast, lunch and dinner every single day of the week, on Sundays and holidays too, they're just not going to do it. So can you give us a diet that'll get us most of the way? There's, you know, I often say that perfect is the enemy of good.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

What would be a good diet, a good plant slant diet that you think is going to solve the lion's share

[Rip Esselstyn]

of the problem for the Americans that don't have heart disease? It's eat, plant strong just wherever you can. Eat more whole grains, eat more fruits, eat more vegetables, eat more you and I love them beans, Right. The problem is right now, most Americans aren't even consuming two servings of fruits and vegetables a day. We are so plant weak as a country that it is. It's really sad. And you know the numbers as well as I do. 60% of America's calories are coming from ultra processed foods.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Right. What?

[Dan Buettner]

You know, we eat 240 pounds of meat a year. But why is meat bad for us? I mean, we have evolved, we're species evolved having eaten meat, you know, and there's a big carnivore movement on the Internet reminding us that we need to build muscle. Muscle mass is associated with longevity. Meat is a whole protein. Why shouldn't we be eating meat?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, I would tell you that meat is a weak food. And we have all been trained and habituated into thinking that meat is a great source of protein. And it's manly and it puts hair in our chest, especially men. But when you kind of look at it a little deeper, what you'll find out is that, you know, meat is loaded with saturated fat, it's loaded with dietary cholesterol, it's loaded with heme iron that's oxidative in nature. It is loaded with something called carnitine. There's a guy, Stanley Hazen out of The Cleveland Clinic, 2013, did an amazing study in conjunction with the cardiology department that showed that they took 4,000 people. And the omnivores, when they ate meat, their bugs in their gut produced a byproduct. They loved it. And they belched out a little byproduct called trimethylamine tma. And then that gas goes to the liver and then it got turned into trimethylamine oxide. And it's this hellish gas that basically takes your LDL cholesterol and actually carries it and burrows it down even deeper into your artery walls. And the cool thing here, vegetarians and vegans, because they had a different, different type of bug in their guts, didn't produce any of the TMA that gets converted in the tmao. So that's another thing that most people don't know about trimethylamine oxide. And it's in all, it's in meat, it's in dairy, it's in eggs, it's in fish. Right. I mean it's like this hidden disaster of a molecule.

[Dan Buettner]

So, you know, just to play devil's advocate, the Adventist health study which found 100 followed 103,000 people.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Found that the meat eaters to your point had the shortest lives. The lactoavo vegetarians, the vegetarians who eat cheese and eggs, they had the second lowest life expectancy. The third lowest life expectancy were the vegans. People don't eat any animal products at all. The people living the longest were the pescatarians, as defined by being essentially 100% plant based. Except for up to one portion of fish per day. You can almost always find a study that supports a point of view. How do you reconcile these other studies that sort of point to moderate amount of animal products actually might be protective?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I think, Dan, there's a basic truth and that is that saturated fat is not necessary. And it is, it's an abundant, I mean the number one source of saturated fat in the American diet comes from cheese, red meat, chicken, fish have anywhere from 40, 30 and 20% saturated fat, respectively. And so if you're going for, I think the healthiest diet, and that's what plantstrong, you know, it's the healthiest diet. Then depending upon where you are on your health journey and what your, maybe your genetics show, sure, maybe, you know, some meat and some cheese and whatever are gonna be fine every once in a while. But if you've had a shot across the bowel like some of my father's patients, I think it's incumbent upon you to do everything you can if you want to continue to live to be kind of hardcore. And here's the thing, Dan, I'm a hardcore kind of person, right? I mean, I'm kind of like all or nothing, right, in most of the things I do. And so I want to give people the benefit of the doubt and I want to let them know, listen, if you want to do everything you can to prevent heart disease, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's. Do you have friends that have come down with dementia or Alzheimer's in the last five, 10 years? It is so godly, sad and unfortunate to see these people lose their minds.

[Dan Buettner]

I've spent the last 25 years identifying places around the world where people live the longest, so called blue zones and where people are actually making it to 100 at the highest rate. It's not because they're trying, it's because they live in an environment where health ensues or health comes naturally. And perhaps one of the most important characteristics of a healthy environment is clean air. In fact, if you live in a place where air is the worst, it can shave as much as five years off your life. That's why I've been paying attention to Air Doctor. Air Doctor uses medical grade filtration to capture ultra fine particles and airborne pollutants that many purifiers miss. And I like it that it actually monitors your air quality in real time and adjusts automatically. We talk a lot about food, movement and connection when it comes to longevity, but the air you breathe is an important ingredient too. If creating a healthier home is a priority for you, Air Doctor is worth a look. Go to airdoctorpro.com and use the promo code code LIVE BETTER. For savings, head to airdoctorPro.com and use the promo code LIVE BETTER to get up to 300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a 3 year warranty and $84 value free. Get this exclusive podcast only offer [e-mail] that's a I R D O C t o r p.com using the promo code Live Better. You know, I've spent my life exploring the world. Not chasing adrenaline, but meaning. From the blue zones of Costa Rica to the highlands of Sardinia, I've learned that adventure isn't about going further, it's about going deeper. That's why the Defender caught my attention. It's not just built for the toughest roads and is designed for people with a purpose. A vehicle capable of great things like the people who drive it. When I'm planning a new expedition or just heading up to my lake place, I want something that feels as durable and capable as the journeys themselves. The defender, whether the 2 door 90, the 110 or the 8 seat 130, gives you the confidence to explore wherever your path leads. Because adventure isn't just about conquering the landscape, it's about connecting with it. Explore the [e-mail] the Alzheimer association itself has published that about 50% of dementia is avoidable. And one of the things they recommend is a whole plant based diet. But what I want to get to here rep, you're a champion swimmer. You've just recently set a world record in the backstroke. You're a professional triathlete. You're three standard deviations from the norm. You're an outlier human being. I've seen you play pickleball. I've been destroyed by you at pickleball. But what I think about when I publish books and when I do my Netflix series, I think of the average American. I think of somebody working in an office building in Philadelphia or I think of a housewife in Iowa or I think of, you know, somebody walking in a shopping mall in Sacramento, California. And I like to tell people what can you reasonably do with some specificity? Because to tell people, go out and eat plant based.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And then you unleash them. In our food environment, 95% of the options are going to be at least with ultra processed food and animal products.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

What do you tell that person walking a shopping mall in Sacramento? How do I get them from eating fast food, which is delicious and hyper palatable, to eating something that might help them prevent cardiovascular disease or help help them keep their brain sharp to the end?

[Rip Esselstyn]

So love the question. And my answer is it's the exact same thing that I did when I got a bunch of Texas male firefighters to do this back in from 2003 to 2009. And keep in mind these Texas firefighters, a meal wasn't a meal if it didn't have 3 to 6 ounces of some sort of meat, preferably deep fried meat on it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So what we did is we just plant strongified their favorite foods. So instead of a burger dripping with cheese and bacon, we would do a black bean burger with sauteed mushrooms, sauteed onions on a whole grain bun. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

And.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And they absolutely adored it. They loved it. When it. What does every American love? They love pizza. So we, I can't tell you how many times we would order out pizza. But you know, one of the great things about the firehouse, we have some downtime. So we would make our own whole grain crust and then we'd throw on either a hummus or a clean red sauce or a pesto sauce and then we'd litter it with every incredible vegetable you can think of. Sun dried tomatoes, artichoke hearts, kale, black beans, roasted corn. I Mean, the sky's the limit there. And now you're getting to eat four or five slices instead of two or three because that cheese, it always fills you up. And the pepperoni and all that stuff. And then one of the favorite food groups of the Texas firefighter, it's fajitas. Right? They love fajitas. So we would, instead of using beef fajitas, we would do either butternut squash or tofu or tempeh. And then we do that. Instead of frying up the onions and the bell peppers in crisco or oil, we would just use veggie broth. Right. Or water or something like that. We'd have it in corn tortillas instead of flour tortillas that have so much, you know, oil and crap in them. And then we'd put on the, the guacamole and the salsa, and they absolutely adored it. So you. What I tell people is figure out, like, depending upon your ethnicity and what foods you love, take them and then figure out how to plant, strongify them. All right?

[Dan Buettner]

Now, papal dome of honesty here. If you went back to that firehouse today.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Fifteen years later, how many of them would be eating whole grain pestle pizza and bean burgers as opposed to what they were eating?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, none of those guys are there anymore. They're retired. All right. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

How about breakfast? Give us a breakfast that somebody's used to eating eggs and bacon every day. What are you gonna suggest they eat for breakfast that they're gonna actually like?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I wouldn't want to make them feel bad, but I would let them know, hey, that bacon, you know, it is considered a class one carcinogenic. Yeah. Everybody okay. Right, Right. So for breakfast, I would say, you know what do you love oatmeal? Because there's oat groats, there's steel cut oats, there's old fashioned oats. Find out which iteration you love. And then I throw on, throw on some walnuts, throw on sliced banana. I'll throw on blueberries. I always do at least four pieces of fruit on top of my cereal bowl. So find four. Frozen's fantastic. I love frozen mangoes, frozen raspberries, frozen strawberries.

[Dan Buettner]

I like that.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah. I mean, and just about everybody loves it. I have people that like, oh, I can't stand oatmeal. I can't stand. It's too slimy. Right. So I would tell you then, I mean, do you like pancakes? Because we can do pancakes and waffles all day long. Do you like toast? Let's get a whole grain Toast and then let's smear some avocado on it, do some avocado toast. So there's, to me, there's all kinds of options there for breakfast, you know, for lunch. You know. One of the things that I dig. Have you ever been to like sweet greens? You kind of build your own bowl as you go along and it's something I tell people you can do at home pretty easily. So you start with greens. You know, green leafies are one of, one of the healthiest food groups out there. Low in calorie, high in, high in, you know, nutrients, nitrates, fiber, all this stuff. Most Americans aren't eating green leafies, spinach, kale, arugula.

[Dan Buettner]

Did you mean to say nitrates? I thought nitrates were bad for us.

[Rip Esselstyn]

They are in bacon. This is a different type of nitrates I see. Yeah. In green leafies. And what happens is you chew those green leafies and those nitrates get turned into nitrites downstream and they join your nitric oxide pool that's blowing out of your endothelial cells and it allows your vessels to be slippery.

[Dan Buettner]

Like does that make the room stink? Just kidding.

[Rip Esselstyn]

No, no, but it allows your vessel, I mean there's. We have 60, you and me, we have 65,000 miles of vessels coursing through our bodies. And the innermost lining of every one of those is the endothelium. Right. And it is the largest endocrine organ in the human body, the endothelial cells. And so if you're eating green leafies, if you're eating beans, if you're eating whole grains, it allows basically those endothelial cells to pump out this nitric oxide that again, it allows your vessels to be smooth like silk and not like sticky like Velcro. And it really, it does an amazing job at preventing plaque. And so my dad's recommendation and mine in my third book, the Engine 27 Day Rescue, is to consume four to six fist size servings of green leafies a day. It doesn't matter how you cooked raw, whatever, but six. So that's just coursing through your body all day long.

[Dan Buettner]

I just want to add, you know, a statistic here that I think people will latch onto. So a 20 year old person who eats the way you're recommending, mostly whole, you don't even have to be 100%, 80% whole. Plant based food is expected to live about 11 years longer than somebody who eats a standard American diet which is laden with meat, cheese, eggs, and it'll be somewhere about 60% ultra processed food. So the value proposition is enormous. And it really doesn't kick in until you're about 50 or 60. You know, the thing is, when you're in your 30s or 40s, you can kind of eat this garbage food with impunity. Then all of a sudden your 50s come along and you get a soft plaque, which, by the way, we're now finding is more dangerous than the calcified plaque.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Right.

[Dan Buettner]

That ruptured. That ruptured.

[Rip Esselstyn]

That's how 90% of heart attacks happen.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, it's a soft plaque rupture.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Juvenile plaques constricts your.

[Dan Buettner]

Your arteries and, and cuts off blood to your heart.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yep.

[Dan Buettner]

And you could. They call it a widowmaker.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And the thing is, you could be eating burgers and feeling great and eating french fries, and all of a sudden, one day you're 55 years old and bam, your life is over.

[Rip Esselstyn]

2 comments based upon what you just said there. First, have you ever heard of the PIDE study? It's pathobiological determinants of atherosclerosis in the young. And they took.

[Dan Buettner]

Kids say that in a simple way. Pretend. Pretend you're telling a sixth grader.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah, basically. Is there heart disease in young children? Okay, okay. This is proven at autopsy. Unfortunate children that have died in accidents, typically car accidents and whatnot. And they've shown that the fatty, the fatty lesions, the streaks start as early as age 5 in kids, and that 50% of adolescents between the ages of 11 and 18 have fatty lesions.

[Dan Buettner]

And I think what you're saying is fat in the arteries. Right. That becomes soft plaque.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yes, exactly. And then you said, you know, I think you started this by saying 20 year olds, if they're eating 80% this way, it has a major impact down the road. Right. But I also want to say it's never too late. So it's never too early to start eating this way, but it's also never too late to start eating this way. And proof of concept. I was just talking to my father. There's a guy named Stanley that he's been counseling since Stanley was 87 years old. He came to him saying, these doctors want to do a bypass surgery on me. I really don't want to do it. My father was like, well, here's an alternative. Try this. Stanley called him yesterday to let my parents know what he was having for his 103rd birthday. The menu. So here's a guy that had heart disease, 87, and now is around almost 15 years later, in his early hundreds, doing great.

[Dan Buettner]

But it Takes, as you point out, it could take 40 or 50 years to develop a soft plaque. What can you. Well, can you reverse that? Can you erase it somehow?

[Rip Esselstyn]

So that, that is, that is one of the best questions you've asked.

[Dan Buettner]

Thank you. It takes me a while.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Slow. No. One of the things my father has shown is that you can actually become heart attack proof in as early as three weeks. Three weeks. So he's taken patients and they do something called a PET rubidian scan that shows how much oxygenation is going on into your heart. Based upon these dyes they put in and the color that it turns, you can tell where there's no blood flow going to the heart and where there's lots of blood flow. And it's amazing. In two weeks, and it's in his book, you can see actually photos of it. But what happens in just two to three weeks? But what also happens is that those juvenile plaques that you and I were just talking about, let's just call them these little pimples, right? What happens is in two to three weeks the COVID of them starts to thicken up, they start to get smaller and now they're not vulnerable to that rupture. That happens unwittingly. And now you have a blood clot.

[Dan Buettner]

I'm just going to sum that up because I think it's an important point that you can have soft plaques which could literally kill you, and in two to three weeks of moving from your burgers, fried chicken and pizzas to a whole plant based diet, that you can actually start to shrink these soft plaques and make them less vulnerable to a rupture.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Shrink and firm up. Yes, yes, absolutely. And that's.

[Dan Buettner]

And that'll happen to your belly as well too, right?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, yes.

[Dan Buettner]

All right, let's talk about muscle. So the general belief, and this is increasingly prevalent, is that to build muscle you need to eat meat. And you're a pretty fit guy. I can see your biceps there. When's the last time you ate meat?

[Rip Esselstyn]

2001.

[Dan Buettner]

2001.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So I, and that. And I've been eating basically plant, strong whole food plant based since 1987. But I was, I did a triathlon on the island of St. Croix 11 years in a row. And I gave myself a present of having a cheeseburger at Cheeseburgers in Paradise after the.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Rip Esselstyn]

The Beauty and the Beast triathlon.

[Dan Buettner]

You can, you can be forgiven.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So and so I did it. You know, I'm being being honest here. Did it in 2001.

[Dan Buettner]

The point I'm trying to make here is that you don't have to eat meat to build muscle.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

How can I eat 100% plant based and still build muscle?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, I think the most important thing if you're trying to build muscle is you need to hit the gym. That, that's the number one thing. Number two is, yes, you need to make sure you're getting an adequate amount of protein. But there's absolutely, I don't think any reason to overdo it. So you and I. Let's just say you and I are both 180 pounds.

[Dan Buettner]

That's about right.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Okay. And so 180 pounds, according to the World Health Organization, you and I should be getting 81 grams of protein a day. It's an absolute snap to do that eating whole food plant based. When you're.

[Dan Buettner]

Give me some specific. Tell me, tell me three plant based foods that'll get me to 81 grams and the amount.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So one third of a can of Black beans is 7 grams of protein.

[Dan Buettner]

All right.

[Rip Esselstyn]

One piece of Ezekiel 49 toast is 7 grams of protein. One 2 ounce serving of whole grain pasta is anywhere between 7 to 9.

[Dan Buettner]

Is that right?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Grams of protein and 2 ounces is a very, very small amount. And so somebody like you or I or somebody that's going to the gym and trying to build muscle, what do we also inherently do because we are training, we also eat a little bit more. And so like I calculated my protein intake the other day just because so many people were asking. I got 118 grams in the other day just in my breakfast bowl alone with my Rip's big bowl cereal with the pieces of fruit, with the walnuts, with the milk was 35 grams of protein. That's just my.

[Dan Buettner]

So you got over almost half of it just in breakfast. I heard too, by the way, that pumpkin seeds has more protein per gram than beef. Pumpkin seeds.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well. And broccoli has more protein than beef. Calorie for calorie. I mean, again, something you have to eat a lot. Absolutely. But here's where I want to go with you, is that people somehow think that plant based proteins are inferior.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, you hear that all the time.

[Rip Esselstyn]

It's not a whole protein to meat. And I will tell you this, it is so superior. Think of meat and the amino acid profile of meat as being clunky. Think of it as being like a combustion combustible engine.

[Dan Buettner]

What would you rather probably make clear that amino acids are, is using kind of interchangeable with protein. Yeah.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So there's basically 20amino acids in totality of those there's nine essential amino acids that our bodies can't manufacture or synthesize on our own, so we have to get them from food.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And you and I talked about this.

[Dan Buettner]

So when you get all the amino acids, you get a whole protein. Right.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Here's the thing. People think that meat is superior because it has all the essential amino acids in it. And it does. But it also is clunky because like, for example, it's too heavy in methionine. Methionine is one of the nine. And I'll name them for you if you want, really quickly. No, okay. No, don't do that, Rip.

[Dan Buettner]

Make it simpler for us.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Okay. But yes, thank you. Think of animal protein as being, I'm going to say clunky and just kind of stupid. And think of plant based proteins as being sophisticated and absolutely brilliant. And they're like the Goldilocks when it comes to all those things. And there's a reason why some of them are a little bit lower than animal proteins. And you get a lot of people saying, oh, but the bioavailability in this is so much superior to plants. And it's like, well, maybe there's a reason for that. For example, what's one of the things that happens when you eat animal protein? Well, it triggers the production of IGF1 insulin, like growth factor that produces tumors and cancers. Whereas it doesn't happen when you're doing these plant based proteins. So it's just, it's a more ingenious, well balanced protein.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And, and you know what? How many Americans are trying to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger? I mean, look at, I haven't literally, I haven't lift a weight in a long, long time. I do pull ups, I do push ups, but I do plan on going, getting back to the weight room because it's about time now that I'm 62. But I haven't hit the weight room since I was really in college.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And you're.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I'm looking at, you're very fit people who can't see Rip, he's. Well, he's ripped. If you look on the CDC website, it will tell you that the average American gets about twice as much protein as they need. So we're obsessed and it's a great marketing ploy to get us to buy meat, cheese and eggs, but also these products with added protein in them and we just don't need it. And we're bamboozled into thinking that if we eat more protein, we're going to build more muscle and to your point, going to the gym is going to build the muscle. And as long as you're getting enough protein, which is about half of what you think, you're going to build the muscle. And it's much smarter to get it from plant based sources because it's cleaner.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

You'll get a better balance of these amino acids that make up a protein rather than this big clunky, as you call it, chunk of dead animal that often gives you amino acids in the wrong proportion.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And you summed it up perfectly.

[Dan Buettner]

Thank you very much. I'd be on your podcast.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And then let me ask you, so how many people in the blue zones are worried about the number of grams of protein they're getting in Okinawa or Loma Linda or wherever?

[Dan Buettner]

I mean, so I'm glad you asked. People in the blue zones do absolutely nothing in the way of controlling their diet. They, they eat what's around them. And, and the core insight from blue zones is don't try to change your behavior because you'll fail. 97% of people get on diets, fail those diets. Something like 87% of people who start a new exercise routine fail within two years. So people in blue zones are eating mostly a whole food plant based diet, which is to say whole grains, greens, nuts, beans, tubers, like sweet potatoes.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Not because somebody's telling, not because they read a book, but because those are the cheapest, most accessible ingredients. And those are the ingredients that grandma has learned how to make taste maniacally delicious. They eat it because it's delicious. But the other side of that, in all honesty, is during celebrations, they'll eat meat. The meat is not industrial raised. It's the animals with a name that had a good life. There's sort of a Faustian bargain that the human and the animal make. Animals protect it fed, treat it well, and then one day, you know, it ends up on a festival platter. But I will say, and this is where, you know, all my books are plant based and I'm a big believer in eating a whole plant based diet. But I can't ignore the fact that in these places where populations are living a decade longer than we're living, and that's at our age, by the way, life Expectancy at age 60 in, in blue zones is 10 years longer. They do eat meat. They eat about 20 pounds of meat a year compared to our 240 pounds of meat, which is equivalent to about five times per month. So I sort of bring you on as kind of the extreme example here of 100% whole food plant based to show that, by the way, if I had to pick a carnivore diet 100 or 100 whole food plant based, 100 times out of 100, I'd pick the whole plant based food. But I'm not ready yet to judge or malign or even necessarily tell somebody who's eating a little bit of meat, you know, once a week that it's going to shorten their life. At least not from my research.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah, I think what's interesting, especially in this country, maybe it's in stark contrast to what's going on in some of these blue zones, is the amount of excessive non essential calories that Americans are consuming every single day. And I think that the classic example of this, and this is where you and I may arm wrestle a bit, is with oils. I mean, they are, you know, the most calorie dense food on the planet at 4,000 calories a pound, 120 calories a tablespoon. And the last thing that Americans need to be doing to me is adding having four or five tablespoons of oil a day, which is the equivalent of close to one quarter of their daily RDA of calories. And I think that if you can build up a fence, somewhat of a smart fence, around these oils because they're ubiquitous in every one of these, these products, Dan. Right. Boxed foods, canned foods, you know, people are being unnecessarily hoodwinked eating these, these products that are just sending their calorie into calorie intake through the roof.

[Dan Buettner]

Here's where I'll agree with you 100%. These Instagram influencers who are telling us to drink shot glasses of olive oil for their health. 100% wrong.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

I was part of a study done on Icaria, one of our blue zones, that found for older people 65 and older, that increased olive oil consumption was associated with higher life expectancy, but that was only up to about four tablespoons a day. And the truth of the matter is you should be starting with zero oil. And then if you're going to add oil, add the olive oil, not the other crappier oil.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And what I will say, because there's been a lot of people promoting olive oil for a long time now. Is that comparatively compared to ghee or compared, you know, compared to lard or butter? Yeah, olive oil's definitely a smarter choice, but I think that the smartest choice is to figure out a way to not, you know, dip your bread in olive oil or, you know, use a, use a dressing that doesn't have the olive oil. There's so many, there's smarter ways of making smart alternatives where you're not getting that calorie bolus.

[Dan Buettner]

But the, the thing is that people run out of discipline. They run out of shit. To remember for my diet and you know, on the list of foods to avoid, I would put olive oil in the middle. You know, I think we could all agree that bacon is one of the worst foods or sugar.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Cheese.

[Dan Buettner]

Cheese perhaps. Well, it depends. The cheese. You know, I'm not in, in blue zones, they're, they're eating a type of sheep cheese made from grass fed animals.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And they're eating a very little. And, and I have to say it's actually, there's no correlation between increased cheese consumption, lower mortality, but you know, the crappy mozzarella we put on pizza. No question in people in blue zones are consuming olive oil. So I'm not a fan of making olive oil a villain. There's so many, there's so much better villains out there when it comes to food. Almost every processed food, almost every food. I think if I see a packaged food that has a health claim on it, I can be pretty sure it's the opposite. Not good.

[Rip Esselstyn]

For me, the villain with olive oil is that everybody has been hoodwinked into thinking that it's this Mediterranean superfood. And you know, the reality is getting back to the Mediterranean. You know, there is not a Mediterranean diet. There is a Mediterranean diet. There's 22 countries that border the Mediterranean Sea and each one of them has a little bit different diet. And so it's like it's the Mediterranean diet has been encapsulated to be. And it's now this billion dollar kind of industry that people just, they're selling hummus. It's the Mediterranean, this, the olive oil. And I think it's kind of gone off the rails a little bit. Now. What are, what are some of the foundational principles of it? It's fruits, it's vegetables, whole grains. The original olive oil, wine. The original, the original Mediterranean diet actually goes back to crete in the 1940s and 50s, post war, super poor. And they were fruits, vegetables, whole grains, beans, olive oil and fish. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

And wine.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I don't know about the wine.

[Dan Buettner]

I do. It comes from the seven countries study that followed men age 45, groups of men from as far north as north Karelia, Finland to as far south as Crete, but also included three areas in Italy, two in France. And it found the farther south you went in Europe where the Food went from being dairy and meat largely like you see in Finland, to more whole grains, greens, beans, fruits, red wine, olive oil. That those populations weren't dying of cardiovascular disease at any where. The rate of people in the North. Ancel Keys did that stuff. I don't know. I just. The cluster of foods is very consistent in all Mediterranean areas and they all include olive oil and they all include wine, except for the ones in the Maghreb, but they don't live very long. Northern Africa.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I know we're kind of getting stuck on this and it's.

[Dan Buettner]

I'm not stuck.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I'm very clear and it's my fault. But here's the saying when I ask people, what is it that you find so exciting about olive oil?

[Dan Buettner]

By the way, Rip and I, before the podcast, we agree we're going to arm wrestle over this point because we basically agree on everything else. But I'll tell you what it is. It makes plant based food taste delicious. And when you're competing with a world of burgers and fries and pizzas and fried chicken that almost impossible to sell to the average population, the average American, to eat vegetables. Unless you put. You make them tasty with olive oil and with herbs. I know you say I can put herbs on and make it taste good, but it just tastes better with olive oil on it. I just hate the idea we have to take that away from people. Absolutely.

[Rip Esselstyn]

If you need your tablespoon of olive oil to make that go down, fantastic. I just want people to understand and Dan, I'm finished this point. So vitamin E. People say they're loaded with vitamin E. Well, you know what? Actually, one tablespoon of olive oil has 1.8 milligrams of vitamin E. One cup of cooked spinach, seven calories has twice the amount of vitamin E. You can get all your vitamin E in boatloads. Better. Less calories from vegetables.

[Dan Buettner]

Let me just say. Let me just say you win this debate and I'll tell you why. Your father did very rigorous studies on people and.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Who were going to die of cardiovascular disease, pulled the oil out and they didn't die. So it deserves consideration. So I'm not gonna sit here and continue to say, eat olive oil.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

So that's.

[Rip Esselstyn]

That's fine. That's fine. I want to move. This is more for your listeners and I want them to understand that in polyphenols, people say that it's. Olive oil is loaded with polyphenols and antioxidants. You look at the antioxidant book of rip rip.

[Dan Buettner]

You won. No, no, you won the argument.

[Rip Esselstyn]

My last Can I finish this one point? You look at the anti the book of antioxidant values of 3,000 different foods and what you'll see is that olive oil is 0.23 and butter is at 0.44 and a Snickers bar is 1.2. So olive oil, it's not loaded with antioxidants, it's not loaded with vitamin E, and it's not loaded with polyphenols. And you need to drink 2,000 calories to get your daily supply of omega 3 fatty acids. Olive oil is not a health food. It's not a health food. Now if you need it to make something taste good. Absolutely right. I get it.

[Dan Buettner]

In the Blue Zones, movement is natural and learning is lifelong. I found that listening on Audible is one of the easiest ways to build simple habits that support long term wellbeing without having to sit still. It's time to take care of you, and you can do that with the top voices in well being on audible. You can level up your career, your sleep, your mindset, your longevity. You can even listen to my titles like my book the Blue Zones of Happiness or While you're out for a walk. It's about making these big ideas fit into real life. From the actionable steps in Born to Walk by Mark Sisson to the poetry and reflections in I Am Maria from Maria Shriver, there is something for everyone. Kickstart your well being journey with your first audiobook. Free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com/live Better membership is 14.95amonth. After 30 days, cancel anytime, because staying curious might just be one of the best longevity practices we have. Valentine's Day gets lots of attention for grand gestures, but what I've learned from the Blue Zones is that love lasts longest when it's woven into everyday life. In places where people live the longest, relationships aren't rushed or performative. Couples walk together, they cook together, they sit at the table and actually talk. That steady connection day after day turns out to be one of the strongest predictors of happiness and health. We know. When I'm at my lake house in Wisconsin, that's what love looks like to me. A quiet morning walk, a simple meal made together, an evening spent playing cards or sharing stories without anywhere else to be. When I'm traveling, I like knowing my home can still be a place for that kind of connection. Hosting it on Airbnb lets other couples slow down, reconnect, and Enjoy the time together in a way that really matters. Hosting fits naturally into my life. It's simple, meaningful, and it keeps those moments of connections going, even when I'm away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host let's move on to potatoes. And because potatoes, I think, a lot of people think are just big sacks of simple carbohydrates and carb bombs. But you have a rather different attitude.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I adore potatoes. I have potatoes every day. And potatoes are, they're a fantastic source of protein. Your average potatoes, 10% protein, which is perfect, right? Your average potato is a wonderful source of resistant starch fiber. If you look at it, most potatoes, your typical serving of potatoes has as much fiber as a bowl of oatmeal, has as much vitamin C as a orange and as much potassium as a banana.

[Dan Buettner]

Do you have to have the skin on it?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I typically, it depends on the potato.

[Dan Buettner]

No, but I'm just asking if you're comparing with all the vitamin C. And in other words, could I mash potatoes and get all these nutrients?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Absolutely. The one again that I do not eat are from sweet potatoes. I take those off, but, oh, I just, it's, it's, to me, it's a little too thick.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah. But if it's a, if it's a russet or a golden, A golden or a, a new potato, I, I, so

[Dan Buettner]

I think a lot of people think if I, if I eat potatoes, it's going to send my blood sugar skyrocket. And you're telling me it doesn't?

[Rip Esselstyn]

No. Well, I mean, what will send what, what may hurt it, I should say it's unhealthy. Is when you, what you put on your potato, that's what basically is, is, is killing people. The sour cream, it's the bacon bits, it's the cheese. You should see these firefighters. It's the cheese whiz that they would put on it. It's the half a stick of butter. I'm not exaggerating. Half a stick of butter.

[Dan Buettner]

And then tell us a way to eat a potato that not only delivers these health benefits and these nutrients, but also is delicious.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So last night I had smashed potatoes. So I took these little new potatoes, boiled them in water and then smashed them into my cast iron skillet and then seasoned it with garlic powder, onion powder, red chili flakes.

[Dan Buettner]

What kind of oil did you use?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Didn't.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, almost caught it there.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Extra virgin olive oil. Dan.

[Dan Buettner]

Atta boy.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I didn't touch the Oil. I didn't need to. And then I had that.

[Dan Buettner]

So just a hot pan and you smash them in.

[Rip Esselstyn]

A hot pan, smash them. And then they were just delicious. And then I put that on top of brown rice with broccoli, with. With tofu. I mean, and I was in hog heaven.

[Dan Buettner]

Where. Where was the hog in that?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I was in kale heaven. Yeah. That was my bad, wasn't it?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. I. I don't. You know, I'm plant based. But you don't. That didn't get me there. I have to say that. That it mostly gets me there.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, if you were there and you would have tasted it, I know you'd be like, oh, Rip, this is dynamite. I could do this every night. And I put a little sriracha on at the very, very end.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, yeah, yeah. There you go.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Give it a little taste. Yeah.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Give a little kick.

[Dan Buettner]

Are your children 100% whole plant based?

[Rip Esselstyn]

So.

[Dan Buettner]

Or did they grow up that way?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah. Yes. They have not grown up, had any meat or fish. They. When they were younger. When they were younger. Yeah. In their life. When they were younger, they would go to birthday parties and they would have ice cream. They would have cake.

[Dan Buettner]

Heaven forbid. Did you punish them when they got home?

[Rip Esselstyn]

No, it was all good. It was all good.

[Dan Buettner]

See, this is an important point because I know a lot of mothers, including mothers in my family, think that if you don't give your children meat and fish and cheese, that they're not going to develop right. Is there any truth to that?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I don't think there's any truth to that. I think that you're not going to develop right. If you are feeding your kids consistently the meat and the dairy and the

[Dan Buettner]

fish and all things your children, how are they?

[Rip Esselstyn]

So my kids are supremely fit, normal, athletic. My son is 18, left for college this year, and he's swimming at a Division 2 school called Drury. He was also offered a pickleball scholarship.

[Dan Buettner]

Dan, believe it or not, that kid's going to succeed.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

But I just want to. I want you to talk more directly right now.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

To mothers listening to us.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Who think that they need to give their children meat to develop for their protein, to develop their muscles, to that think that they need to give their children dairy to build strong bones and teeth. Tell them the truth. In very simple terms.

[Rip Esselstyn]

There's nothing that you can't get from plants that you can get from meat and dairy in a smarter, better way that is not going to give you the foundation for insulin resistance, for heart disease, for you know, dementia, all those things. Because what are you ingesting? What are you feeding your body when you're eating fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans, you are eating an amazing variety of antioxidants and phytochemicals, vitamins and minerals. Dan. I think this is an important point, Dan. So most people have no idea how many vitamins there are we need to get as human beings. There's 13. There's 13. Of those 13, 11 originate from plants. Okay. The only two that don't are vitamin D, which is the Sunshine vitamin, and B12, which comes from microorganisms in the soil. All the remainders, they originate and they come from plants.

[Dan Buettner]

That's a good point.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Minerals. Minerals, Dan, there's 17 major and minor minerals that we need to get from our food. And where do you think minerals are found?

[Dan Buettner]

In the ground, in the soil.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And where do plants romp and play? In the ground. So I will say to the mothers out there, the best source of retainable and absorbable calcium, magnesium, even iron.

[Dan Buettner]

Right. Protein.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Come, protein. But everything comes from plants. It doesn't come from animals. And then what is just inherently missing from all animal products? Fiber. And we now know how amazing fiber is. Right. For our microbiome to keep us, you know, regular, to satiate us all these things. It's. Fiber is like the miracle nutrient and it's only found in plants.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. And something like 90% of Americans are fiber deficient. And if you don't get fiber, you're more likely to have inflammation. Your, your immune system doesn't work as well. You're not making the precursors.

[Rip Esselstyn]

That's right.

[Dan Buettner]

Or the feel good hormones like oxytocin and serotonin and most. And, and we only get fiber from where?

[Rip Esselstyn]

From plants. That's right, from plants.

[Dan Buettner]

I want to move on to, to milk. We've grown up being sold this idea that the best source of vitamin D and calcium comes from dairy, comes from cow's milk. Is that true?

[Rip Esselstyn]

No. The best source of calcium and the smartest and safest is going to come from your tofu, your green leafies, your whole grains. They have all the calcium you need and then some, without exposing yourself to the saturated fat and the cholesterol that you're going to get from milk.

[Dan Buettner]

How about vitamin D?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, vitamin D, I mean, I would say the best source of vitamin D is just to get a little bit of sunshine.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, but you're talking to a Minnesotan here. I mean, we don't take off our parkas from October until March.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So you need to actually get that checked and find out before you start supplementing with D or you're drinking down gallons of any kind of milk. And a lot of these plant based milks are fortified to the exact same amount as cow's milk, if that's an issue. Okay.

[Dan Buettner]

So I know you have your own line of plant strong milk and I actually looked at the ingredients before you came on here.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Oh God, Dan.

[Dan Buettner]

No, they're shockingly good. Yeah, I mean it seemed almost all real food, you know, lightly processed, but so I think nut milks and oat milks are often maligned because they're either processed and B, to keep them from separating. The emulsifiers often are bad for our, our endocrining system, our way, our hormones work and so forth. Yeah, but have you gotten around this with your talk about your mind strong milk.

[Rip Esselstyn]

So we intentionally have avoided all gums, emulsifiers, stabilizers, anything of that nature. Basically we have an oat milk and an almond milk. Just have water and almonds and water and oats and then we have fortification. So to your point earlier, we're 4 to 5 with B12, calcium and vitamin D at what we think are really nice amounts. And we use a patented process called hydro release. So we actually use the whole oat or the whole almond, which is very, very, very, very unique. So that's beautiful. And then we have two blends. We have an oat walnut blend and we also have an oat almond blend. And then those are lightly sweetened with whole pulverized dates. That's opposed to any refined. And we are, to the best of my knowledge, the only commercialized plant based milks that actually are using whole pulverized dates. People at home can do it easily, right? You throw in your date. But when you have to get it through the filtration system at a plant, when you're making 200,000 of these, it's a completely different ball game.

[Dan Buettner]

And you're in Targets. I saw on your Instagram all Target stores.

[Rip Esselstyn]

No. So we're doing a small test in 150 Target stores, in 250 Walmart stores. And then of course we're in Whole Foods nationwide. We're in about 4,500 different doors, grocery retail doors with the product. And then another great way of people getting it. Amazon's a great way. And then of course we have our direct to [e-mail] where people can order and it's dropped right to your front door.

[Dan Buettner]

And is there, you know, people Dome of honesty. Any drawback to drinking your nut milks and your oat milk?

[Rip Esselstyn]

No, I think, I mean, to me they are as ultra clean and real as it gets. So. No, I mean that's, and that's a, that's why I developed this whole food line. You know, it's not just milks, you know, it's. It's cereals, it's granolas, it's pizza crust kits, it's heat and eat chilies and stews. And I take great pride in trying to produce a platform of plant strong products against all, all the different day parts that will allow people to eat this way in a way that is convenient and easy and to your point, super tasty. Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

Deliciousness is the important, most important ingredient in any longevity diet. In many ways, you're my hero. I was a swimmer in high school and college. Never lettered. You were Allstate in three different sports and you have a world record, a recent world record in swimming. You were a champion pickleball player, super competitive. Does all this competitive nature all come from a good place? Or is there something in you that you're actually trying to work out? Is there something, somebody who is dissatisfied, satisfied with you, or do you have a demon telling you to continue to push, push, push?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Indeed.

[Dan Buettner]

Is it indeed this great thing that, you know, people look from you from the outside in and they say this incredibly healthy, accomplished guy. But what's the truth of it?

[Rip Esselstyn]

I think there's definitely some demons in there, no doubt about it. And I think probably a lot of it stems to my father's success as an athlete. You know, he was an Olympic gold medalist in 1956.

[Dan Buettner]

I didn't know that.

[Rip Esselstyn]

In crew for Yale University, they represented the United States in Melbourne in 1956. And so I guess I had that, that I was always aspiring to. Right. Olympic gold medal. And so how do you ever reach that level? It's very, very difficult. Right. Not even.0001% of people can get a go to the Olympics, let alone get a gold medal. And so I've always been super competitive.

[Dan Buettner]

Is part of that living up to your father's expectations?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, I would imagine that there's gotta be some of that. But I will say that as I'm getting older, I'm realizing that if I could let go of the need and the urge to, when I'm doing something competitive, typically sports, to always win, I could have so much more fun. And I think the other people would have more fun. Like, you know, I was playing pickleball the other day I asked my 11 year old to play me against my brothers in pickleball. So it was me and my 11 year old hope against my brothers. One who's 11 months younger than me and another one and we beat the dickens out of my brothers.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I don't like playing with you, make me cry.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And they had no fun. And somehow or another I thought that they would enjoy it. Me and my 11 year old daughter. But she's a phenom too. I mean she's phenomenal. So I'm starting at the age of 62 to understand that it's not necessarily a good thing, a healthy thing. Yes. There's some demons that I'm obviously chasing and it's interesting and I'll share this with you. When I was 22 and a half years old, after the Olympic trials, I went to the Olympic trials in swimming, I went to Alaska and I hitchhiked around Alaska with my brother and we met up with a guy and he said, let's go to the top of this mountain and do shrooms. I'd never done marijuana, I'd never done alcohol, but no, you know, hallucinogenic drugs or anything like that on the very top. I, I took a mushroom almost like ah, you know what? It went in Rome and I got the most overwhelming sensation. I never wanted to compete in anything really hardcore again. There was a certain something that spoke to me then that you ignored. That I definitely ignored but. And yeah, it was 40 years ago. But I want you to know that is something that I am working on and I look forward to exploring that deeply.

[Dan Buettner]

What was your lowest point in these years of competitiveness? What? Can you think of one point where either you felt completely defeated or you felt like, oh God, I'm, I was too competitive there.

[Rip Esselstyn]

The Olympic trials in 1984, I had such high expectations of, you know, going to the University of Texas. I went there specifically because the world record holder in the 100 meter backstroke, Rick Carey, was there and because the American records holder in the 100 yard backstroke, Clay Britt was there. And I was like, if you want to be the best, go train with the best. And so my sophomore year, 1984, I went to Olympic trials and I just, I didn't perform nearly as well as I had hoped to. And it was, I was very disappointed in myself. I felt like I let let a lot of people down. So I would say that's the number one time I was disappointed. And I think about it, Dan. And yeah, I was an all American swimmer, made the Olympic trials, had all kinds of titles while I was at University of Texas. But because I didn't ever reach the height that I wanted to, what did I do? I went and I did triathlons for another basically 10 years, exclusively trying to be one of the best triathletes in the world. And then when I was a firefighter for another 10 years, I continue to compete at a world class level, doing triathlons for about five years and then Xterra off road triathlons. So it is deeply embedded in me, this need to try and show something to somebody or someone that, you know, I'm the best. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

And the problem not.

[Rip Esselstyn]

And I'm not. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. And then along the way you found out that people just love you for who you are.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Exactly, exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

I always find that the pursuit of the best always lies on an ever receding horizon. And even if you grab it for a second, you lose it because somebody replaces you or the bar gets moved

[Rip Esselstyn]

and it's, it's very elusive.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, I've always strived, strived for mediocrity and I've been a fantastic success.

[Rip Esselstyn]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that about, you know, receding, because, you know, I got the world record in the 200 meter backstroke for men in 2019. Three months ago, a Russian broke it.

[Dan Buettner]

There you go.

[Rip Esselstyn]

He broke it. Right. So, you know, that lasted six years and now it's basically receding faster and faster. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Stick with plant milk, Rip. Thank you very much. So how can people follow you, Rip?

[Rip Esselstyn]

Well, they can go to Rip Esselstyn on Instagram. Go. Plan Strong. On Instagram is another channel that we have. And then we have PlantStrong.com is our website. And then we have another website called liveplantstrong.com so those are the four main areas.

[Dan Buettner]

And of course, in the grocery store,

[Rip Esselstyn]

many grocery stores as well. Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

Rip, you're saving lives. You're making people's lives better. You've made our lives better. Thank you very much, Dan.

[Rip Esselstyn]

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

[Dan Buettner]

We'll see you when you're under it.