Stop Being Awkward with Vanessa Van Edwards

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Buettner Podcast

Episode: Stop Being Awkward with Vanessa Van Edwards
Date: September 11, 2025
Duration: Approx. 1h 08m
Host: Dan Buettner
Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards (Behavioral Investigator, Author of "Captivate" & "Cues")

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Episode Overview

Dan Buettner, renowned for his research into longevity and happiness (“Blue Zones”), welcomes Vanessa Van Edwards, a self-described “recovering awkward person” and social skills expert, to discuss the vital role of social connection in living longer, happier lives. The episode explores how to break free from social awkwardness, build meaningful friendships, and offers practical steps for connecting authentically in today’s disconnected world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Connection Between Longevity and Social Ties

• Loneliness and health: Loneliness is linked to significantly shorter life expectancy (by as much as eight years, per Buettner's research) and reduced happiness.
• Friendship as medicine: Social connection “is better than any vitamin, any supplement, any superfood” for health and happiness. (Buettner, [01:23])
• Most powerful longevity hack: “Building the right social network is arguably the most powerful thing you can do to add good years to your life and be happy.” (Buettner, [01:36])

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The Myth of the “Extrovert” Friend Maker

• “I’m a recovering awkward person. I’m not naturally extroverted.” (Van Edwards, [03:43])
• Most people are “ambiverts,” not true extroverts or introverts; they can thrive socially under the right circumstances.
• Forcing extroversion is exhausting and inauthentic.
• “We know we need social connection...but we go out and seek it, and it feels bad because we feel fake and forced.” (Van Edwards, [04:04])

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Small Talk, Scripts, and Better Conversation Starters

• Small talk often fails because it sticks to worn-out scripts—“How are you?”, “What do you do?”, “Where are you from?”
• These questions put people on autopilot, offer little genuine connection, and drain energy.
• Small talk should be replaced by “dopamine questions”—questions that energize and interest both parties.

Three Questions to Avoid (Van Edwards, [07:37]):

1. What do you do?
2. How are you?
3. Where are you from?

Better Questions to Ask:

• “Working on anything exciting recently?” ([07:56])
• “Do anything fun and exciting this past weekend?” (early in the week)
• “Any exciting plans for this weekend?” (late in the week)
• “What’s something you’re proud of that most people don’t know?” ([16:04])

“When you stop asking ‘What do you do?’ you become more interesting.”
— Vanessa Van Edwards ([07:37])

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Levels of Conversation Intimacy

Based on Dr. Dan McAdams’ research ([16:27]):

1. General Traits: Occupation, hometown, family status (“level one”)
2. Personal Concerns: Motivations, goals, worries, pride (“level two”)
3. Self Narrative: The story you tell yourself about yourself (“level three”)

To build intimacy: Start at level one, transition to level two with questions about passions and pride, then to level three with questions about self-identity (e.g., “Which book/movie character is most like you?”).

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How to Set Up Your Environment for Friendship

• Find your watering holes: Identify places or activities where you feel energized and meet like-minded people (e.g., classes, volunteering, parks).
• “If you go to that watering hole, you are more likely to find similar animals to you.” (Van Edwards, [28:18])
• Make two lists:
  • Places that energize you
  • Places that drain you ([32:01])
• “You’re not allowed to make friends at the places that drain you. That’s not your watering hole.” (Van Edwards, [33:41])

Volunteering and Altruism:

• Giving to others releases neurotransmitters similar to those from sugar or cocaine, boosting happiness and connection ([34:07]).

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Breaking the Ice

• Main rule: Put away your phone and remove your AirPods. They’re the biggest social barriers today ([36:17] – [36:29]).
• Make eye contact, be present, and use “context cues” (situational triggers like “Where’d you get that mat?” or “Great book you’re reading, what’s it about?”).
• “It is almost impossible to make a friend if you have an airpod in your ear or are on your phone.” (Van Edwards, [36:29])

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Letting Others Impress You

• Shift focus from being impressive to letting others impress you— “We don’t like people who try to be impressive. We like people who let us impress them.” (Van Edwards, [12:39])
• Play the mental game: Imagine you might have to introduce the person on stage; find out what would wow others about them ([13:05]).
• Seek out “me too” moments—shared likes, values, or experiences to build instant connection ([44:36]).

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Upgrading Acquaintances to Friends

1. Mine your own gold: Reconnect with weak ties—people you already know but want to know better.
2. Make a list of “heck yes” people who energize you, and a list of people who drain you (including “ambivalent” relationships).
3. Create space: To bring new people in, you may need to slowly disengage from draining or ambivalent connections.
4. Invest time: Schedule regular, shared activities (classes, quests, game nights, or learning experiences together).
5. Avoid “coffee dates” for depth: Doing something together (like learning, cooking, or exploring) is better for sparking deeper friendship ([59:27] – [60:42]).

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Level-up Tactics for Friendship

• Pursue side-by-side activities (especially for men—watching games, hiking, racquet sports, etc. ([62:52]).
• Use “quests”—pick a challenge (e.g., try the top 10 restaurants in town, read all bestsellers of the year, or visit every park)—to generate stories, invite others along, and foster connection ([77:45] – [82:19]).
• Host gatherings: Small dinner parties or “forcing parties” (everyone brings something to finish a task).
• “Pebbling”: Send memes, articles, or anything that makes you think of your friend (“book soulmates,” Netflix recommendations, etc.) ([86:32]).
• Express liking boldly: If you enjoy someone’s company, just say it—“I like you, do you want to be friends?” ([45:10])

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Vulnerability and Likability

• Being likable partly comes down to learning how to like others—popular people have the longest lists of people they like ([89:37]).
• Vulnerability is magnetic: Owning your social awkwardness, admitting loneliness, or showing imperfection makes others gravitate towards you.
• “Most people feel lonely, awkward, broken, like no one's meant for them and they're unlikable… If you genuinely like someone, it’s the first way they can be like, ‘Oh, I’m likable.'” (Van Edwards, [102:58])
• “Assume there’s someone in every room waiting to be your friend.” (Van Edwards, [102:20])

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Dan Buettner:
  • “The advice that you’re giving people is better than any vitamin, any supplement, any superfood we can see on Instagram.”—[01:23]
• Vanessa Van Edwards:
  • “We don’t like people who try to be impressive. We like people who let us impress them.”—[12:39]
  • “Go on a what do you do diet. No more what do you do, no more how are you, no more where are you from.”—[106:02]
  • “If you are feeling lonely, you are not alone. If you are feeling loneliness, that is your body's way of saying I need something.”—[31:42]
  • “Put away your phone and take off your AirPods.” —[107:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Building social connections & longevity: [01:23], [25:39], [27:07]
• Small talk alternatives & energizing questions: [07:37], [07:56], [14:01]
• Conversation intimacy levels: [16:27]
• Setting up your social environment: [28:18], [32:01], [33:41]
• Breaking the ice, context cues & body language: [36:17] – [39:15]
• Friendship “watering holes” & weak ties: [47:16], [59:27]
• Letting others impress you & “me too” moments: [12:39], [44:36], [75:38]
• Quests for building connection: [77:45] – [82:19]
• Upgrading acquaintances, vulnerability & likability: [89:37], [104:13]

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Practical Checklist (As Outlined in the Episode)

(Van Edwards, summarized at [106:02])

1. List the places and people that fuel and drain you.
2. Pick a watering hole where you truly enjoy being.
3. Start a quest—something interesting/challenging you can pursue alone or with others, to generate stories.
4. Reach out to old acquaintances, or invite new ones along.
5. Ask better questions (no more “What do you do?”).
6. Be open and vulnerable—express your intent to make friends.
7. Look for “me too” moments and shared vulnerability.
8. Assume each new person could become a great friend.
9. Put away devices; be present.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a toolkit for anyone tired of feeling awkward, lonely, or disconnected. Vanessa Van Edwards and Dan Buettner weave together insights from science, Blue Zones wisdom, and personal stories to present a hopeful message: building authentic friendship is both a key to long life and an attainable, joyful goal, even (or especially) for the awkward among us.

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Extra Points for Vulnerability!
("Wear it to your watering hole!") — A recurring encouragement to be open-hearted, as the surest bridge to real connection.

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Recommended Resources

• Vanessa’s books: “Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People” and “Cues: Small Signals, Incredible Impact.”
• Vanessa’s course: People School (peopleschool.com)
• Dan Buettner’s “Blue Zones” work

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This summary captures the essential lessons, actionable tips, and spirit of the conversation. Listen for transformative stories, social scripts, and practical ideas to “stop being awkward” and start connecting for a longer, happier life.

Transcript

[Dan Buettner]

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[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you are feeling lonely, you are not alone. If you are feeling loneliness, that is your body's way of saying, I need something. We put our friendships last because we feel like we have to put our success first and we don't realize that we're crippling our long term health and happiness.

[Dan Buettner]

The advice that you're giving people is better than any vitamin, any supplement, any superfood we can see on Instagram. This is the most powerful conversation I think I may have ever had. I've spent the past 20 years for national Geographic studying happiness and longevity. And when you boil it all down, building the right social network is arguably the most powerful thing you can do to add good years to your life and be happy. But how do you actually do it in today's world of networked electronics and social media? Well, I've brought the best expert in the United States. Vanessa Van Edwards was an awkward college student who decided to do something about it. She's aggregated all the best research. She tells us exactly how to make the first connection. What are the three questions you should never ask somebody when you first meet them? How to set up your environment so you're more likely to make friends. And how to take an acquaintance and upgrade it to a true friend. These are some of the best tools to to in a very practical and actionable way, add more good years to your life. Stay tuned. I guarantee you this will blow your mind. You know, I've. I've met you for three minutes and I already feel like we're best friends.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We are.

[Dan Buettner]

What? Whatever you do, it works because I'm so excited to have you here because, you know, when it comes to longevity, what really Works is so counterintuitive. Of course, I think what you eat is really important. Maybe 50%, but nearly the other 50%. And we've heard this over and over in happiness, and it's so true in longevity. It's how we socialize. It's the network we build around us. And we live in this age where we turn to our handheld device for our social connections. And we've lost the ability to meet people, to make friends with them, and to build authentic relationships. And you, you're arguably the best expert in the country right now, and you've synthesized all this great academic information. But what's most powerful about it is, you know, how to put it to work in people's lives. You know what to tell people. So as we get started here, what are people gonna learn over the next hour?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm gonna teach you the best kept secret. Longevity hack.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Which is friendships for awkward people. I'm a recovering awkward person. I'm not naturally extroverted. And I think that there's a myth that has set most of us up for failure with friendships, which is that to be liked, you have to be a bubbly, outgoing extrovert. And so if you are not that you feel, well, yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

What do you do?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I can't do it. Or you go out and you fake it. You try to force being an extrovert. Someone says, oh, you say, smile more, and you go out and you're drained and you dread it. And you get to a party and you're like, I wish I could just stay home and watch Netflix. That would have been better. And so it's a trap where we know we need social connection. We want it, we crave it, but we go out and seek it, and it feels bad because we feel fake and forced. And so then we go, oh, I guess I don't need it after all. So we resort to our phones because that feels safer.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so my goal is to teach introverts ambiverts. Actually, most of us are ambiverts. We're in between introvert and extrovert. How to socialize in a way that actually charges your battery, that you don't drain it. You don't dread it. You actually are craving it, and it fills you like a battery.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, I. People label me an extrovert. I don't know if I really am an extrovert, but I go into a group of people. I don't know, I. I might just kind of play one on TV or something.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Let's Play a game. We can. We can do it. Okay, so here's how you know. So extroverts, when they have a bad day, they seek out people to vent and commiserate and feel better. When they have a good day, they seek out people to celebrate and make the happiness even better. And almost all social interactions fill them. They leave feeling more jazzed, more energized. Introverts, True introverts. I don't think, actually as many people as they think are true introverts. Introverts, when they have a bad day, they want to be alone. They want to process. They don't want to be around anyone. They don't want anyone to talk to them or touch them. When they have a good day, they also want to be alone. So they can savor it. So they can just savor it and revel in that success.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And they typically are only recharged by alone time. They do not have people that charge them. If you have a few people that charge you, a few places that charge you, sometimes you have a good time, sometimes you don't. You're likely an Amber. You're somewhere in between.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I think I'm probably the ambivert. Ambivert. Because I will, you know, at the end of the day, I do like to talk to somebody. I'm. I write during the day or I do work during the day, but then at night, every night, I like to go out with. But on the other hand, you know, I'll do a speech or something and I love the people I'm talking to, but I'll go into a crowd of people and I. I'm exhausted in 15 minutes. I don't know why.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

And I like to think, I. I love these people. I'm an extrovert. But somehow the social interact, especially the interaction of how are you? Or oh, yeah, the sort of. The small talk.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Small talk dread. Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. And oh, my God, I want to stick a knitting needle in my eye.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Don't do that. I'm gonna teach you a better way. I'm gonna teach you a better way. Okay, so here's what's happening is when we go into small talk, we're actually engaging our brain in social scripts when we say, how are you? Here's the answer you're going to get all the time right now in 2025. Busy. Good. But busy. That is the answer. And when you ask someone, what do you do? They've answered that so many times before that their brain is basically on autopilot. Our brains do not like to be brain dead. And so the reason why we are exhausted is because we know we're talking. We, we know we're having rote back and back interactions. But it's not actually gifting us dopamine. It's not actually gifting us oxytocin. Cause they're very complicated chemicals. But dopamine is the chemical of motivation. It makes us want to do things. We can actually trigger dopamine with the right questions, is that right? But the wrong questions do the opposite. They take away energy. So, for example, I am trying to encourage the world to go on a diet. I'm trying to encourage them to go on a small talk diet, which is, here we go, we're cutting out. What do you do? How are you and where are you from? You are no longer allowed to ask those questions.

[Dan Buettner]

All right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The moment you stop asking, what do you do? You become more interesting. Here's why. If you replace that question with a dopamine question, you are actually gifting the other person a little bit of motivation, a little bit of energy. Dr. John Medina found this creates mental markers, so you also become more memorable. So instead of what do you do and how are you and where are you from? Here's what I'd like you to ask. If you're brave enough, which is working on anything exciting recently, that question is a sneaker question.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because you're actually giving someone permission. If you ask someone what do you do and they're not defined by what they do, you immediately box them. Right. You force them to answer in a socially scripted way.

[Dan Buettner]

Right, right. Or if they're not proud of what they're doing.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

Then they're stuck.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you ask someone working on anything exciting recently, you're giving permission, believe me, if they love what they do, they'll tell you.

[Dan Buettner]

Right, right, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If they don't love what they do, they tell you something better. And you're also letting them juice excitement from other areas of their life. Like, if I say, what are you working on? Anything exciting? My brain starts searching my entire life for excitement. Excitement, excitement, excitement. Ah, I found something. Then I share that excitement with you, which talking about that excitement begins to juice my own excitement. Then you can get excited about my excitement and then we're off to the races.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, it's contagious. Yes, yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And that is more fueling than what do you do?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, yeah. Where are you from? Yeah, right. Or all the people say, oh, just marketing. Right. And so I think that the challenge here is not all small talk is bad, but we have to replace it with small talk that fuels us, and everyone's fuel is different. And so what I would. I have a challenge that we could try, which is, what are the topics of conversation that actually light you up?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What are the topics that you feel they're tied to their core values. They make you want to learn more or grow more. The. Those are secretly tapping into that kind of growth mindset simply by a conversation. So if you can weave them into your conversations or get someone else's topics, it completely changes the nature of small talk, and it makes it more energizing.

[Dan Buettner]

I happen to know from 2 million interviews by Gallup that only 30% of Americans actually find purpose at their work. That means 70% of people are just calling it in, more or less. So if you're asking them, what do you do? 7 out of 10 times you're going to be asking them to tell you something they're not all that excited about. So this question I love. What are you excited about? You could be excited about, you know, you're training your dog to poop in this corner instead of in the middle of the living room.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's not the first thing I would have thought of, Dan, but I do.

[Dan Buettner]

Like that I have kind of an odd brain, but okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But if that's what you were excited about, Dan, we could talk about it. I could ask which corner. We could talk about your dog. We could ask how long it takes a pig. Yeah, so we could do it.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, so. Well, let me ask you the reverse of that, because people are going to ask you, where are you from? What do you do? How are you? What should I say to make. To give the questioner that little dopamine.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

Dog treat.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so right. In conversation, there's two roles, or sometimes three. If there's more people, you can ask better questions, but you're going to be asked the same old boring questions, and you should be ready for them. So every time someone asks you, what do you do? Or where are you from? You have an opportunity to transition the conversation to something you like more. So I want you to actually think through your answers to these questions, and I want you to create a little bridge to something you actually like to talk about. So if someone says, what do you do now? I love what I do, so I don't mind talking about it. But let's say that someone's asked what you do, and you say, oh, I'm just in sales. So I'm in sales. Is there Any aspect of sales that you like that you would talk about, or is there something that you do on the side that you'd rather talk about more? You can answer someone, you know, I'm in sales, but by. By day, I'm in sales, but by night, I. Or I, I. I daydream in.

[Dan Buettner]

I wear sexy clothes. I don't. But I'm just role playing here. Somebody else.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Somebody else, friend of Min. Somebody else. Friend of a friend, for sure. Not us. So what you can do is you have full permission, I'm going to give it to you here on this podcast to answer in any way that lights you up.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So if you're in sales and you say, I, you know, my corporate job is in sales, but my side hustle is. Or my day job in sales, but at night, I. That way you're giving them a hook, and it gives you a hook to what you want. So that I would come up with answers that bridge or transition into a topic you like and full permission to just take the ball. Now, I want to have a little caveat here, because I think this line of thinking can get us into a dangerous place, which is conversational narcissism, which is only talking about things that you like. Now, I want you to transition. I want you to bridge. But what the mistake that people make, and I've seen this happen with my students, is they take the ball and the conversation. So they say, here's what I do. But I actually side. My side hustle is cooking. Right. And they start talking about cooking and all the things they love about cooking. Great. And then you're talking for 15 minutes without a break, and you're only talking about yourself.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And we tend to then try to be impressive. We try to tell funny stories. We try to name some.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, we all do. Yeah. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And we don't like people who try to be impressive. We like people who let us impress them.

[Dan Buettner]

Because I was going to tell everybody that I met Vanessa Van Edwards today.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's good.

[Dan Buettner]

That's good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I like it. Please feel free to do that. Please feel free to do that. So I think that what you also have to think about here is, okay, I want you to talk about your answer. That fuels you. But the very next step is, how can you let this person impress you?

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, I love that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What? Like the mental game I play. And I'm gonna share this. It sounds so weird. Oh, I love that this is a game I play. I imagine in every conversation I'm about to introduce this person on stage and I need to find out some interesting facts about them to be able to impress the audience. The nature of your questions should be, how can I let this person impress me? What could I ask that will allow them to step into the spotlight that's brilliant. Their excitement or their accolades or their credits? And then awe. My favorite interpersonal emotion is awe. I think awe. It's immune giving. I think there's some research on this. I actually haven't recently read it. It's on my list. I think that awe is. It's literally a strengthening emotion. If you are asking questions to let someone awe you, where you can say, wow, you did that. You saw that. You do that. That's your skill. Awe, I think, is the fastest way to build friendship.

[Dan Buettner]

How do you. Can you give me an example of a question that allows me to impress you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay. So. So I have tricks.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, you're good with those.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. And I'm an awkward person, so I don't naturally do this. And so I have to have tricks in my brain. So hopefully people listening. You can use these too. Okay. Here's a thing about conversation. If you go too deep too quickly, you're weird, right?

[Dan Buettner]

Yes. Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So a mistake that sometimes awkward people can make, and I used to make it all the time, is you go too deep too fast. So you can't go into a conversation and be like, what are your core values? So I think that that's a mistake is we, what are your hopes and dreams? What? Those are too much. So we're going to save those for level three. And I can talk about the three levels of intimacy in a second. We want to do safe level one questions that still juice dopamine. I gave you my first one working on anything exciting recently. The second one, where you can begin to juice little platforms for them. Sharing something is very simple. Working on. Sorry. On Mondays and Tuesdays, I tend to ask, do anything fun and exciting this past weekend. On Thursdays and Fridays, I ask, have any fun and exciting plans this weekend? On Wednesdays, I don't talk to anyone. I'm just joking. Sometimes I usually say, have any fun, exciting plans? When you ask about plans, fun or exciting plans, people's brain do something interesting. And I've asked this to thousands of people. If you ask how many fun and exciting plans coming up, their brain then goes to the thing that they're most excited about coming up. And it's usually something that they feel proud of. And that's what you're trying to get them to answer. It's something They've been working on maybe their fun and exciting plans is a gallery showing that they're doing or their kids soccer game, or they're finally gonna start this car they've been working on in their garage. Fun and exciting. They're gonna fill it in with something that they have been looking forward to and that is typically awe worthy, and that is typically something that's impressive. Not always because it can be small, but that's just as awe inspiring as something big.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, for these Blue Zone projects I do where we help people make friends, essentially, we have a question, we circle people up, and they look at each other, and we ask the question, tell us something about yourself for which you're proud, but nobody else knows.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, that's such a good one.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. And, you know, you hear, like, people who never talk. It turns out they. They saw a kid in a ditch once, or they were. They won an award for swirling a baton, and they're still proud of that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And okay, so this. That question's even better than mine. I love it. Especially if you're in a safe space.

[Dan Buettner]

So it's not the first thing you would ask. It's like the third.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so let's talk about the levels. So in every interaction, Dr. Dan McAdams, a researcher from Northwestern, found that there are three levels of intimacy in every relationship. And the first level is called general traits. This is why in every starter conversation and small talk, you go, what do you do where you're from? Cause general traits are occupation, hometown, family status, you married? You got any kids? We're trying to answer those questions in our head because we have a hierarchy of facts. It is very difficult to connect with someone if you don't know those basic facts. So if I meet someone and I say, what's the thing you're most proud of? That most people don't know. And they say, I won a baton twirling contest. Yeah. My brain still can't quite connect with you because I don't know, are you married? Do you got any kids? Where are you from? So we actually do want to answer those questions with these. Working on anything exciting? Have any fun plans coming up? Right. I can answer by saying, oh, you know, my daughter, she's just starting at a new school next week, and I'm really excited for her. Okay, you just learned I'm a mom. You just learned that. Oh, a new school. Did you just move? Yeah, I just moved. So the way that you answer is trying to give out general traits in a more exciting framework. It's like a lens. Same thing with the other person. They're sharing their general traits. That's level one. Level two is called personal concerns. These are motivations, personality traits, goals, worries. I like to think of it as what do you daydream about? Like, what are the things that kind of get you going?

[Dan Buettner]

I like that one.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Or like, what's the thing that gets you up in the morning?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And then what do you worry about? What keeps you up at night? What are your nightmares about? Like, that's how you typically think about it. If you know that about someone, you know what's keeping them up at night, you know what gets them going in the morning. The second question I think that you brought up is what's something you're proud of that most people don't know? We're getting into level two. There's right like pride, awe. The last level, the hardest level. And most people are not on this level with anyone or maybe one or two people is called self narrative. And it's the story you tell yourself about yourself. And this is incredibly important for the people in your life because if you know the story they tell themselves about themselves, you can predict behavior, you can understand what motivates them.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, what's an example?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I have so many. I'll give an example. So I, I was dear friends with a woman for many years is when I lived back in Portland, Oregon. And she's a mom of wonderful stay at home mom, funny, smart. I thought I knew all about her. We've been friends for years. We hang out all the time. I asked her a level three question. A level three question is what book, movie or TV character is most like you and why not looks like you, but personality wise is most like you. I thought she was gonna say a TV mom. Like a great, funny, sassy TV mom. But she thought about it for one second. She went Katniss Everdeen from the Hunger Games. And I was like, what? She's like, I feel like I'm surviving every day.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I was like, well, you know.

[Dan Buettner]

A lot about her with that one answer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That one answer showed me that while she's very happy, she is in survival mode and she is feeling like she's barely keeping it together. We had the best, deepest conversation that we had ever had. And my fundamental understanding of who she is and how I can help her and support her as a friend changed forever.

[Dan Buettner]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, I am a journalist and I'm used to talking to a lot of people when I'm working out some sort of a problem, and when it's a personal problem, I end up calling six people and I often get six different opinions. And I'll tell you, there's something Mark Twain once said. The difference between the lightning bug and lightning is the difference between the word and the right word. BetterHelp has real licensed therapists to help you make sure you get the right word. If you know what I mean. You know. BetterHelp has been helping people find their match for over 10 years, and they have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. So these are real licensed therapists who are helping you get through your problems. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a variety of expertise. Find the one with better health. Remember the difference between the word and the right word. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] live better longer. That's better. HP.com live better longer. So I hold three world records for biking across five continents, but I can honestly tell you my single best week of cycling was with Divine Cycling Adventure company. We took a glorious trip across Sardinia. They had three guides that kept the bikes going. They were great tour guides. They were great chefs. They knew the history of the place. One guy was an expert on wine, by the way. Nobody was ever for want of wine. And they knew the best terroir. They knew where to get the best food. We woke up in the morning, we had pimpin bicycles that were ready to go. A fantastic breakfast. We went on somewhere between 50 and 70 miles a day of exquisite riding. They curated the course. They found a great place for lunch. We always end it with a great dinner. It was just the best mix of physical activity, actually experiencing a place. Not just traveling to it, but experiencing a place and then emerging from the experience with new friends, new knowledge, and better conditioning. So it's called Divine cycling and adventure company. It's $150 off per person when you book your first divine tour. That'S-U-V-I-N-E.com live better longer and we'll see you when you're 100. It occurs to me, Vanessa, that you really have to pay attention to be a good conversation. You. You need to have heard that metabolize. Oh, we're, we're going in a different direction in this conversation because she just revealed something very vulnerable and you sort of want to think, okay, well, if this woman is survival mode, what's my next question? And, you know, you're not asking about vacation or something. It.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's. It's. I would call it conversational flexibility or following the energy. Right. Like, she answered a very deep, almost dark way. And you're right. If I had then been like, what fun plans do you have coming up?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. It's like, it trivial. Trivializes what she would have.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I would have not followed the energy. So instead I was like, tell me how. Tell me why. How can I support you? What does that mean? Has it been like that forever? Has it been like that for years? It allowed me to sort of dig deeper. And I think that I like to think of conversation like a treasure hunt. Right. Like, you're following the map that you're being given by their answers. I think it takes paying attention, but I think it also takes flexibility on the listener's part to say, I'm gonna go with you. By the way, this is a good mental check. There are sometimes people where I don't feel the flexibility. Those are maybe not my people.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And this is the other thing I like to share with people is, like, you don't have to be friends with everyone. It's really important to make friendship, and it's very important to invest in quality friendships. But not everyone is for you. You know, I joke, you know, you can't be pizza. You can't please everyone. Like, pick your flavor. Like, I'm brisket. Like, I love a brisket. Right? Like, that's my flavor. I'm beans. I'm beans. I know. I know you love the beans. So you gotta find your bean people. I gotta find my brisket. And so part of this questioning is also, like, you're looking. Like, you're looking for your person that answers in a way where you're like, wow, I feel kinship with you. I feel connection with you. I understand this. And so I also want you to be checking with yourself of, like, is this my person? And it's okay if not everyone is.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

In fact, I think ambivalent relationships are like, social sugar. Like, that's something you want to limit in your diet as much as possible. Frenemies, people you don't like. We kind of understand those folks. We're like, oh, not gonna go to lunch with them. You know, we have that person. We're like that.

[Dan Buettner]

But you'll be nice to them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. You're like, but you don't try to connect.

[Dan Buettner]

How do you segue out of this? Okay, we've just met this person. I know you know, I don't wanna be friends with them. They're not bad people. How do I quickly segue out of that? So they feel pretty good about themselves, but I can get on with my life elsewhere.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Gratitude and wish them well. It sounds like this.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Gratitude.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Gratitude and wish them well. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for sharing that. I hope you have a great night tonight. And I'm gonna go grab some food. I'll.

[Dan Buettner]

I love that right there. Bounce it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Now, Dan, you're going to be kind of careful because if you're at an event, you start like, I wish you well. Thank you so much for that. And you just segue out of it.

[Dan Buettner]

I often go, oh, I got to go. No, I don't really tell them. You know, it might be my just found out my mother's dying or something.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I mean, you know, ghosting works too. Ghosting works too.

[Dan Buettner]

So I just want to bring this back, so. So you're on a podcast about longevity and people are saying, well, why is Vanessa Van Edwards here on a podcast about longevity?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because.

[Dan Buettner]

We know that having three best friends who you can count on on a bad day, this is not these sort of celebrity gossiping or sports fan friends of yours. These are friends who you can call where you know you've run out of money or you've just broken up with your boyfriend or girlfriend and you can cry. Those are the friends that count. Those are worth eight years of life expectancy over being lonely. And I'm friends with the previous Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, and who tells me that 50% of middle aged Americans report being lonely. That means they're losing eight years of life expectancy. So the advice that you're giving people is better than any vitamin, any supplement, any superfood we can see on Instagram. It is so powerful. And it's not only powerful at adding measurable years to your life. We've all heard the happiness research that the single biggest factor in happiness is social interaction. So the research that you're helping people put to work in their lives, not only giving them a happier life, giving them a longer life. So it's so important. So let me ask you this. So let's just say I've lost my skill at breaking the ice and connecting with people and I meet somebody at a bus stop or I'm on a plane with them and I'm kind of interested in that person. How do you break the ice in a way that's not weird?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, well, there's two. Two things I want you to think about. And I, I agree that not only are friendships important, they're enjoyable. So it's one of the few longevity hacks that not only is gonna add years to your life, it's also enjoyable in the moment. Like, you know, I'll take my vitamins and they don't taste that great.

[Dan Buettner]

No, no.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Friendships, when they're good, they taste delicious.

[Dan Buettner]

Vitamins are good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, man. The worst. The worst, right? So like Elise, friendships, they feel good in the moment and they're adding years to your life.

[Dan Buettner]

They really are.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So it's a double good. Okay, so there's two different things here. One is, what do you do once you are with someone you're interested in and want to break the ice? One. But two, also, how can you put yourself in more places where you're going to meet people that you want to make a relationship with?

[Dan Buettner]

That's a very good point.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

There are two. And I want to start with the second one first, actually, which is you need to find your watering holes, right? At the watering hole. Like, you know, the African savannah, all the animals of all different kinds have to go to the watering hole and get their water. What is yours? Where do you draw life? What is the source of your energy? Is it Pilates class? Is it hiking? Is it the beach? Is it knitting? Is it cooking? All I want you to find, what is the thing that gives you life? Because if you go to that watering hole, you are more likely to find similar animals to you.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah. But you got to get out of your living room.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You got to get out of your living room.

[Dan Buettner]

And what you're saying is it's not only a place that draws you and draws your interest, but there's going to be other people like you and they.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Have the same values as you. I'll give you a very personal example, which is I studied abroad in China when I was in College and in 2003, this is 2003 to 2005, not a lot of people went to China back then to study abroad. And so when I got there, I met very, very like minded students from all over the world. Little did I know that one of them would become my husband. Right. Like I met him and we just were like so similar, so many similar values. And he's the love of my life. He's my soulmate. We met in this very particular watering hole. And if I had met him, you know, on the street, I never would have known. That's the other thing about going to a watering hole. It kind of Cuts the other stuff where you go, oh, this is what this person values or loves. So where is. Where would your ideal friend be? What are they doing with their time? Where are they hanging out? Not what do they look like or what do they sound like, just where are they? Where are they drawing Source.

[Dan Buettner]

So you've moved here to California. I mean, this is where the rubber hits the road here. Have you found your watering hole in your new home? I'm not gonna tell people because you wanna keep it a secret, but it is a beach town.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, look, let's. And this is so personal and this is the first time I'm sharing it. I lived in Austin for six years and I loved it. I have many dear friends in Austin, but everyone is so busy that no one has time for friendship. And also my source is not there. I love the beach. I love being in the ocean. I love being outside. I love beach hikes. I love those things. And so I was constantly looking for those things, but I couldn't find my source there. I think a mistake that we make into it and we get into when we're trying to be successful is we're too busy for friends. We have too much in our to do list to hang out with people. We put our friendships last because we feel like we have to put our success first.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. And we think they're going to be there anyway.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And we don't realize that we're crippling our long term health and happiness by doing that. So I thought to myself is the source. And my husband and I were like a small beach town. A small beach town, like not a big city where everyone's activities are the same. You go to school, you drop your kids off at school. Because I'm a mom of two, I spend a lot of time momming. And then everyone goes to the beach. So we literally looked for a place that was like that, where everyone drives little golf carts and you drop your kids off at school, you do some work and then at 3:30pm you pick up your kids and you all go to the beach. And so that is my new source. This is so important to me that I left my entire community in Austin to be able to do it. And I'm also closer to my family. My family is really close. My siblings and my mom.

[Dan Buettner]

So. So that's brilliant. And the Blue Zone's central thesis is if you want to get happier, live longer. Don't try to change your behavior, change your environment. That's exactly what you did. And I applaud you for that, but most of the people listening to this podcast, they're living where they're living. They live in small town America or they live in a bigger city and they're not going anywhere.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right.

[Dan Buettner]

So try to imagine a sort of middle aged mom or, or you know, 40 year old guy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

Who's feeling a little bit lonely now. Oh, what's the general. How do you, how do you find your, what is sort of the mental processes you go through to identify your watering hole? Because I love that metaphor.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. I, I love it. And by the way, if that's you and you're feeling lonely, there is room for change. If you are feeling lonely, you are not alone. And that is something I really want to share with people. If you are feeling loneliness, it means that that is your body's way of saying I need something like don't be ashamed of that loneliness.

[Dan Buettner]

We evolved with that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And so if you're feeling lonely, I got you. There's a way to do this and you don't have to move, you don't have to move to California to do it. Here's the first thing I want you to do. I want you to literally make a list if you'd be willing. So first thing I want you to make a list of is what are the places that give you energy? We're getting into the watering hole talk. I mean literal places. Is it the grocery store, is it church, Is it the gym? Is it even a place you think might give you energy? I want you to make a list of all those places down to even like certain classes or certain groups.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I like where you're going with groups and classes because you're really going to find like minded people there and you're going to see them with enough repetition that it's likely to become.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it's way easier to break the ice with someone that you've seen three weeks in a row across, across class.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And then we're getting to that. Second. That first question you asked earlier is.

[Dan Buettner]

What do you say?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. It's so much easier when you use context cues, which I'm going to teach you in a second.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. You're in a yoga class and say.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, where'd you get that mat?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, there you go.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That matcha latte looks great. Where'd you get it? Right, like, okay, so I want you to make a list of the places that fill you. And this is the part that people most forget about but is the most important. Now I want you to make a list of the Places that drain you. A mistake that people make in their watering hole. They've lived in the same town for many, many years. Oh no, there's no friends here. I can't find any friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, or there are people bellied up to the bar complaining about their life.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. Where are the places where you haven't met friends that you leave feeling drained? When you see it on your calendar, that PTA meeting or that group, you feel dread.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Make a list of those places.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, I hate to say it, if you're feeling lonely and even though you get an energy from the places you're going, you're not obviously making the friends. So you gotta sort of force yourself to go to that, identify that new place.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you might be getting quantity over quality. Right. Like a lot of the times I think, we think it's, it's, it's fake stimulus. It's like cotton candy. Right. Like it feels like it's a lot of sugar, but actually if you boil it down as just like a very small, you know, half a cup of sugar, it's sort of the same thing. Social media is like cotton candy friends. Like, it tastes good in the moment, but it actually doesn't fill you up. It's the same thing. So I want you to make a list of those places. You are not allowed to make friends at those places. That's not your watering hole.

[Dan Buettner]

You're probably familiar with this research and it doesn't occur to so many. You know, we're in the sort of make America great mindset right now, as opposed to the Kennedy mindset. We're asked not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. It turns out that giving that altruism stimulates the same neurotransmitters as sugar and cocaine does. So it seems to me that if you got out of your comfort zone and actually went and volunteered someplace, you would not only be in a place with like minded people who share the same interest and values, but you're also getting that sugar high of altruism, the good sugar high.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so, and this is perfect transition. What I was going to say is if you don't have a long list of the good places, like let's say that you just made the two lists and your list of places you don't like is very long, and the list of places you do like is very short, is get out of your mind. In other words, we tend to be very me focused, especially with social media. It's all about what do I like what's my core values? If you don't have enough on that long list, be other minded. Where can you give? Do you have time?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Other. Yes. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Do you have money? Do you have a skill set that you can give?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you just get out of your own head. I think a lot of my awkwardness was just social overthinking. It was just being too me centric. No, it's all about other. Where can you go to serve? If you're going to serve somewhere, you're gonna find like minded people who can serve with you and it gets you out of your own head and it's going to be a beautiful watering hole because even if you don't meet a single person that day, at least you served.

[Dan Buettner]

That's right. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

At least you gave.

[Dan Buettner]

And it's going to give you feel better that little. And then you call a friend and say, oh, I feel really good about this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

But you know, back to the first question, which I think especially this new generation of young males who, you know, the way they meet girls is swiping. And even older people, we've let the muscle, the social muscle atrophy. So, okay, I'm sitting on a plane and I'd like to strike up a conversation or I'm at a bus stop or I'm at a bar. What do I say? What breaks the ice that doesn't make me sound like a fool?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. I have very difficult advice and you're probably not gonna like it.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, I'll do it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Ready? This is the vitamin.

[Dan Buettner]

This is the vitamin.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Take your ear pod out of your ear.

[Dan Buettner]

Forget it then. I'm not gonna do that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Put away your phone.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It is almost impossible to make a friend on a plane or at the bus stop or in your favorite place if you have an airpod in your ear or you're on your phone. Because it is almost impossible to connect to someone.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you're me focused.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And this is. I can teach you the best conversation starter in the world. But if you are in your phone with your airpod in your own world, there is no way that you can have good conversation. So that's the very first step before I teach you all the conversational tools is and I share this for especially I noticed a lot of our students are very smart, brilliant individuals who are scared actually to do that. It's very uncomfortable. I talk to a lot of college students and I say to them, please take your AirPods out of your ear when you walk across campus and they look at Me like I'm asking them to walk naked through campus. I actually think they might prefer to watch naked through campus. They go, but, Vanessa, I will look. I'll look so weird.

[Dan Buettner]

And I'm like, that's just sad.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But when you walk through the world with your mind on your phone, with your eyes on your phone, or with your AirPods in, your body language changes, your mindset changes. You make less eye contact, you have less handshakes, you miss opportunities for friendship. And so that's the very first thing is we have to open up our surface area for luck.

[Dan Buettner]

I have this editor at National Geographic, and I came to a meeting once, and I put the phone on the desk between us, and he said to me, you've just kind of told me there might be something more important than me right now. And this simple little idea that you don't even put your phone on, you put it in your pocket, or you put it in your bag and put it away. And then you're ready for a new social interaction. And you also telegraph that actually you're the most important thing. Not this Bing I'm going to get or this text I'm going to.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

The moment you put your phone away, there's opportunity for friendship, and it makes it easier. It also makes you less awkward. So that's the first thing is to set the stage is you can't go to these places with your mind on your phone. It just won't work. The second thing is use context cues. So it's very, very hard. And I know this is an awkward person to try to make conversation out of thin air, right? To go up to someone and be like, hi, I'm Vanessa. I'd like to be your friend. Oof. Hard. But what you can do is you're always somewhere.

[Dan Buettner]

You must be wi fi because I'm really feeling a connection here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my God. I haven't heard that one. That would work.

[Dan Buettner]

That would work.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you came up to me, Dan, I'd be like, we're going to be friends. That was a very nerdy joke, and I liked it. So you can try that. I like that one a lot. But I think that you're always in a place. So what I would like you to do is wherever you are, that is your cue. And this could be anything in your context. Wow, what a great latte. Where'd you get that? Oh, I love your yoga mat. Where was that? Oh, my goodness, those hiking shoes. They look so good. Hey, how do you know the host? What brings you here? Have you been to this restaurant before. Hey, what did you order?

[Dan Buettner]

How about on a plane?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, on a plane. So where you headed?

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. And they're either gonna. They're probably gonna give you one answer, one word answer, which is fine. Home. Or, you know, Toronto. Oh, Toronto. Anything exciting there?

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, there you go. I like that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So we just turned into any. And they'll either say to you, yeah, I'm visiting my grandkids, or, oh, no, it's a work trip. And then you follow the energy. Oh, my gosh, a work trip. Yeah, me too. They're the worst. Except that at least I get to watch unlimited TV because my kids aren't with me. Oh, yeah, me too. Like, you're looking for openings. Right. And you're looking for similar core values. You're trying to assess. Could this be my person? Right. And in a couple of answers, you can usually find that out. So context cues. What is something you could ask about in your shared context that's going to help give you anything to help them brag or give you awe?

[Dan Buettner]

I like this idea of helping them brag because I think so many of us feel like we need to brag in order to establish that we're worthy or that we're interesting or that we have the status sufficient necessary for the other person to pay attention. And you just sort of flip that on the head and no other focus. Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Be less about you. It's quite egocentric to think that you have to impress them. Why not say to them, I'm gonna give you a platform for you to impress me, by the way.

[Dan Buettner]

So brilliant.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Podcasts are another great context cue. If you were just listening to this podcast, bring it up, blame me. Be like, you know, I'm gonna be real brave. I was listening to Russell Van Edwards and Dan talk about context cues. So I'm gonna try to strike up a conversation with you. Yeah, right.

[Dan Buettner]

They said, why not? I should make you feel impressive.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. And I always, I almost always carry a book when I'm on a plane or when I'm like, I have very small books I keep in my purse. They're great context cues too. Right. I also, sometimes with, like, friends that I'm with, I'll, I'll, I'll show them or I'll share. I'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm reading this book. Are you reading anything? Listening to any good podcasts recently? Oh, you know what I just saw on Netflix. Right.

[Dan Buettner]

And, and by the way, when you're, when you're carrying a, A book, you're Kind of telegraphing your values and your interests and also kind of your education level.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, if you're.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A book is my watering hole. You know, it's a portable watering hole.

[Dan Buettner]

That's a good metaphor.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think of props can create allergies in the sense of we all, you know, there. I talk about cues a lot. There are 97 different cues that humans send to each other, but categories of cues we are constantly signaling to each other, mostly warmth and competence. When two humans meet each other, I'm signaling to you. You can trust me, you can like me, but I'm also reliable and competent.

[Dan Buettner]

How do I do that? How do I signal that I trust you and I like you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So the most charismatic people broadcast warmth and competence through their signals. They happen through our words. So the kinds of words we use, they happen through our voice, how we say our words, our volume, our pace, our cadence, our non verbal. So my facial expressions, my posture, my gestures, how I am through space. And lastly, my ornaments, my props. Ornaments are actually, I think, one of the best ways to find your people. In other words, a prop that. I'll give you a couple props and you'll be like, I get it. If I was walking around the mall carrying a small book of poems, you would know a lot about me. Right. You would be like, oh, okay, I know what I think I know what your watering hole is. Right. Versus if I were to walk into an airplane wearing a business suit and an American flag pin.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, yeah, we know that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We know something about me. Versus if I were to wear a.

[Dan Buettner]

Serape and a Navajo hat.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, perfect. You know a lot about me. If on a profile picture on a dating website, a man is carrying a cat, you actually know quite a lot about him. In fact, they found that there are. When men hold cats in dating profiles, they actually find their person faster. They turn off. A lot of people. They turn off. Yeah. But they find their Catwoman faster.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I also want you to think about what are the cues that you're sending to get your people. You want to actually create allergies. Don't carry what everyone likes. Carry what you like.

[Dan Buettner]

I like that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And so that also is a fast way. Like for example, anyone who wears sports gear. It's actually a great way to create a context cue on yourself. Right. If you're a 49ers fan and you're wearing a 49ers shirt or 49ers hat and you're walking around, you're creating a context cue for someone to be like, go Niners.

[Dan Buettner]

I read this term about this term homophily, which is homophily. It's like, it turns out that we love people like us.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We do.

[Dan Buettner]

And if you can sort of fine tune the people you're interacting with so that they're people who are like you, you're more likely to become a friend with them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So I call this, like, same here. Moments. So you can do this with likes and dislikes, like watering holes, but you can also do it with value. And so anytime you're in conversation with someone and they say something and you're like, oh, same here. Me too. I love that, too. You're creating those moments of connection because we think we have good taste. So if.

[Dan Buettner]

Well, we do.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

We do have.

[Dan Buettner]

You and I. I mean, we couldn't do a whole podcast on good taste.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's true. So we have great taste. And so because we think we have great taste, if someone has something similar to us, we're like, you're like me. The same thing happens for them. And so when you're in conversation, I want you to be. Your goals are. I have a couple goals for you. One is, how can you let them impress you? Second is, how can you feel more awe? Is there something you could say or share or ask to feel? Wow. Third is, can you create more me too moments where you're finding something that you feel the same way. Like the same thing.

[Dan Buettner]

Me too moment.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Me too Moments are immediate. Just write that. You'll remember. You'll remember. And if you say me too, that's even better. Now, the last one that I want you to be doing in conversation is we like people who like us. And the problem is, is there's a bias with this where we think that we're being obvious with our liking, but we're actually not. It's called signal amplification bias. We think that we're cueing a lot. We think that we're signaling to the world. I like you. I don't like you. But actually, our cues are much more subtle than that, really. And so we're not as obvious as we think.

[Dan Buettner]

So we should just tell people we.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like them and that's it. And the last comments, the last thing I want you to do is, if you like someone, say, I really have enjoyed this conversation. Can we do it again? I literally say to people, I like you. Do you wanna be friends? I have gotten almost all my friends that way.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. And it's kind of vulnerable, too.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A little vulnerable. Like, a little bit vulnerable and very transparent. And so if you're with someone and you're feeling it like you're like, this person's great, tell them so. And you can do that with a compliment. I actually prefer compliments that are. It's fine to say, oh, I like your shoes or I like your shirt, but I actually prefer identity compliments like this. Talking to you has been so interesting. Always talking to you is so fun. You are so fun. You are so interesting. You're always make me laugh. I love working with you.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. It's not just what they on the outside. It's you complimenting what's on the inside.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And what they're doing for you. Like if when I'm with someone who's making me laugh or they're interesting and I say to them, you are so interesting. I love talking to you. That is the ultimate gift you can give them. And it's the best. I like you. I think I like you are the three most powerful words in the English language. And you should be saying it to everyone you like all the time.

[Dan Buettner]

It's sort of the opposite of Winston Churchill who said, I don't drink to become more interesting. I drink to make you more interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think Churchill wouldn't have that many friends.

[Dan Buettner]

I don't think he had many.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I don't think he did. So I think if we can be in our life searching for those things and the end of every conversation is either saying, I like you. Let's do this more, or wish you well. Thanks for your time.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Isn't life clearer?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Yeah. You're not wasting a lot of time.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

With the other option, by the way. So we talked about new friends, like going to watering holes and using context cues. There's another opportunity for friendships that I like to encourage. People, which is mining your own gold. Like, you probably have people in your life. Weak ties. People who. A friend of a friend or a sister's friend or the mom down the street or your neighbor. There's a lot of opportunity in weak ties. If we're searching for it.

[Dan Buettner]

Give us an exercise to mind those weak ties.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. So I want you to make. So I made. We made a list of the places. The next thing I want you to do is make a list of the people. Okay. And don't show anyone this list. Cause it's kind of personal. Okay. So by yourself, or if you're with a partner, you could do it with them. I want you to first make a list of the people. People who you get energy from when you would. If I were to say to you, hey, guess who's coming over? You'd be like, yes, can't wait to make them dinner. Like only heck yes people.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, meh people. So who are the heck yes people? Who are the people you look forward to? You might even change your calendar, your schedule to be able to hang out with them longer. So who are those people who give you energy? You also could include people that like, you call. There's always have to be people that are like next door in your town. Like, I have a lot of friends from college that don't live in my town. Then I want you to make a list of the people who drain you.

[Dan Buettner]

These are the people who I know exactly you're talking.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. Don't say them. Okay. Whisper, go ahead. No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

[Dan Buettner]

There's nobody in this room, but there are people. It's like, suck the oxygen out of the room. And I just. It is viscerally painful to be around them. I just want. I want to keep. And I don't want to be mean to them.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But typically they're the takers, aren't they?

[Dan Buettner]

Often, yes. Often, yes. Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So I want you to make a list of those people. Now what's going to go on this list? I really want you to think about this. There's the obvious people who you dread, the people who push your boundaries, the people who drain you. But I also want you to think about the ambivalent people. These are the people. Ambivalent relationships are really important. And I try to get all my students to identify them. They're the people who take or leave. You hang out with them and you leave feeling meh.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You don't feel fueled. You don't feel bad.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You know, you kind of always wonder.

[Dan Buettner]

But you gotta pour your own energy into that and their vessel in order to have a conversation.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They still take energy. They still take energy. And if you're not being fueled by your relationships, don't have them. Because the mistake that I think we're making is we say, well, I have friends, Dan and Vanessa. I have friends. And I ask, are they filling you? Are they fueling you? And if someone says kind of, well, of course you don't like hanging out with your friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's a wrong way to exercise that muscle. So I want you to make a list of those people who you're ambivalent. The other area for ambivalence is for especially women tend to do this more is friends or relationships by habit. Like you just Always see them. So you just keep seeing them. Or they're people who you're not sure if they are really happy for you. I call these frenemies. Like, it's someone where you tell them good news, and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm so happy for you.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Yeah. Or they tell you about their version of good news. Which is better?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

One upping.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. One upping or one downing? Right. Like, their good news is always better, and their bad news is always worse.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, you go, oh, I got such a bad night's sleep. And they're like, well, let me tell you about my bad night. Yeah, okay.

[Dan Buettner]

I haven't sleeped in a week.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

Slept in a week.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So one uppers and one downers.

[Dan Buettner]

I think you're on a really important topic here because you've been very good about telling us what to do to make. To break the ice and make new friends. Setting up your environment, putting your phone away, taking the ear pods out of yours, moving to a place, identifying your watering hole. But there are so many lonely people who. Okay, yes, I can break the ice. How do you upgrade an acquaintance to a friend?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so first we have to downgrade some people, I think, to make room for the good. You have to make. You have to get out the bad.

[Dan Buettner]

All right?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. And, like, that is a really important thing, especially for those of us who are in the kind of the middle of our life and we have sort of habitual things. We do. You can't bring in new people if they're old people clogging you up. That's how I feel about it.

[Dan Buettner]

Do you do. Will you actually say dump your old friends?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I would say dump friends that don't fuel you.

[Dan Buettner]

How about the friends that need you? I mean, I'm guessing that a lot of people get around you, Vanessa, and say, you know, it's the highlight of my week, and I don't have these. Oh, I'm serious. I mean, you're incandescent, and that's contagious. And. And what you have people want and.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, this is a really good point. I have a list of three people who, whether bad or good, I'm gonna be there for them. Those people are on your list. They're your forever people.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right.

[Dan Buettner]

Can't do be there for everybody if.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They'Re having a bad year, a bad decade. I'm still gonna be there for them.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But everyone else sound that list.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're not gonna take that energy.

[Dan Buettner]

There's only so much Vanessa. To go around.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. Especially, you know, that list used to be five people, and then I had two kids.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Now it's one.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

No, exactly. No, none. It may take a lot of energy, too littles, but, like, I think that we have to. So who are those people who you're gonna be there for no matter what? And hopefully, you know, friendships go through chapters and seasons, and there are times where giving and taking and that's a whole different conversation that we could talk about. But I do think that there are people who are not on that list, who you have to clear the way for. So before we even talk about leveling up, those weak ties to friends, the people who aren't giving you energy, who are not fueling you, who. You wonder, are they really happy for me? No. If they don't make you better or smarter or happier. No. More like sugar. Let's cut them out. And there's ways that you can do this. You can slow roll back where you're just slowly creating more space. You can literally say, I wish you well in this life, but I don't think we should be friends anymore. You know, I. I know. I do believe in friend breakups as.

[Dan Buettner]

Opposed to ghosting either one.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Either one. No, you got to go harsh. You gotta pick one. I mean, look, don't you sort of.

[Dan Buettner]

Love people who are just baldly honest with you? You know, you have a lot of great qualities, but I only have so many hours in the day, and. And I'm. I'm. I'm just gonna spend them elsewhere. And, you know, if you really need me, you can call me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But yeah, I mean, I'm a fan of radical transparency, especially in a relationship. You know, if you like someone, tell them, I really like you. Will you be my friend? If someone's not your flavor, you can say, I don't think we're the best fit. I wish you well.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, that is empowering to you and them both. So I believe. First is clearing the way. Clear the way. Got it. Second, I want you to identify the people on the front list, the people who fuel you.

[Dan Buettner]

I think. I don't think people think of that. I just want to make a place marker there because it's so important that most of us have people in our lives, either now or in the recent past that we, you know, we. I met that. That person was really interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes.

[Dan Buettner]

Or.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And then we don't pursue it.

[Dan Buettner]

That guy was really helpful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Or we think, oh, they're too busy for me. Or maybe they don't like me back. It's worth taking the shot. It's always worth taking the shot.

[Dan Buettner]

I love the idea of writing it down, whether it's a piece of paper or a blank screen.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

You're going through your contact list and you write the names down and put their email or their phone number. So now you can take the next step.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And this is anyone who had a spark. It's literally anyone that you've had a spark with over the last year, I would say.

[Dan Buettner]

And there's more than them. There's more than you realize.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And think of the weak ties, right? Like the neighbors, the friend of a friend. I'll even say you could make friends via social media. I'll give you an example. There's a woman that I followed for many years, Sade Zaray. There you are. And I just loved her work. She's so wonderful. Hi, Sade. And I saw that she followed me back one day and I was like, oh, how exciting. We do very similar work. And I just like love her energy. And I. Either she reached out to me or I reached out to her. You know, hey, I love your work. And she was writing a book and I said, let me know if I can help with anything in this area. I love books in this area. We became friends over dm. First we were sending voice notes back and forth. Then I met her at a conference. We were both speaking at the same conference and we just bonded in the green room. Then I took a really bold step. I was like, do you want to come stay with me in Austin?

[Dan Buettner]

Wow.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And she was like, really? I was like, yeah. Like, we're just like, let's do a mastermind together. Like, let's do a two day mastermind. And so her next trip to the states, she came to Austin. We did a two day mastermind. We went to all of our favorite restaurants. Oh, a mastermind. And this is another tip that I have for leveling up. You can have a. This was Shaadey and I have similar businesses. So I was like, let's share tips. Like there's enough for both.

[Dan Buettner]

Tell us your business here because I want to make sure we want it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I teach communication tips to very smart people. So people smarts for smart people.

[Dan Buettner]

What if I just have mediocre intelligence?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I could probably help. Okay, could probably help.

[Dan Buettner]

Then I can get in.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm also mediocre smart people. I also help you too.

[Dan Buettner]

And what do we sign up to online or size?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. So I have two books and then I have a course called People school. It's all the people skills, by the.

[Dan Buettner]

Way, for those of you who aren't watching. The books are called Captivate, the Science of Succeeding with People and Q. Small signals, incredible impact. And they're beautiful books.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thank you. Thank you. So I have people school, which is this the college course you wish you had taken on communication, relationships and conversations.

[Dan Buettner]

It's so fundamental.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

12 week course, just like college. It's all online. We have coaches, and it's everything that I think we should have been taught in school. So that's where all my students are. And so she has a similar business where she teaches communication. A lot of interpersonal skills. Very similar. And I'm like, let's share. There's enough for both of us. Like, we have the same audience.

[Dan Buettner]

You're bumblebees in a grand canyon of opportunity.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I just like her. I just like her. And so we became fast friends. We mastermind. So you have a couple options to level up friendships. Okay. One is you're in. You try to pick a watering hole you can do together. That's easy, right? We both like to hike. We both like to knit. And I like weird hobbies, by the way. Like the weirder.

[Dan Buettner]

Tell me your weirdest hobby.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my. Like rock hunting.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay, that's. That's weird.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it's like finding cool rocks and like polishing them.

[Dan Buettner]

All right. That's right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's.

[Dan Buettner]

It's kind of weird.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm gonna let you just keep.

[Dan Buettner]

I was hoping for something, you know, really weird, but that, you know, that's pretty weird. It's a good start. What would be weirder than that, you know.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Well, excited for this answer.

[Dan Buettner]

Andy Warhol used to collect famous people's underwear, so that would be weird.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That'd be weird. Not bad. I collect rocks. That's also, you know, pretty fun. So, like, weirder is better.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Buttons. You know, weirder is better. Like learn how to or so weird hobby or learn something. So sometimes like learn how to make sushi. Learn a language, learn how to rock climb. Learn scuba diving. Like, it doesn't have to necessarily be a hobby. It can be just something you want to learn because someone who's also in that class, they're also also probably growth mindset. They're in the same stage as you with this new skill and then you probably do it with them.

[Dan Buettner]

Right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And learning. I think there's something about your brain when you're in a class or you're in a workshop, your brain is just more open to connection.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So people are more likely to have a conversation with you that actually goes to level two, two, or level three. So learn something. Is your other option, like, go to that weak tie and be like, hey, I was thinking about taking like a macrame class. Do you want to join? You know, I was thinking about, you know, I, I, I heard you, you speak some Spanish. I was trying to learn Spanish. Is there any chance you want to do a Spanish coffee with me? You know, once a week and we just chat and I take you to coffee and I treat you to breakfast, right? Like, what could you learn with this person? Would they want to learn something similar to you? This also could be a book club, right? Like, book clubs are the easiest way to find people who are into same things as you.

[Dan Buettner]

So I, I like the path we were going down of, of making this list of people who, in your recent past that you find interesting or you got energy from. And let's just say I don't want to commit to a whole class with them. What, what are, what are some of the other things I can do to bring this acquaintance, who I really like, towards a friendship? What's the next step?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, so I think time, and this is important. Friendships take time, investments of time, and you should think about it that way. I hear so many people who say, you know, my diet, my new health regime is I'm gonna cut out X and I'm gonna add Y. I thought, I sort of want you to think of the same thing for friendships is what do you wanna cut out? Who do you wanna cut out? What kinds of friendships do you wanna cut out? And what do you wanna bring in? What time are you gonna invest in your friendship? And I literally want you to pick a time during the week. So is it like Wednesday night is like the night that you're gonna, like, go to bowling class or go to?

[Dan Buettner]

What do you think about dinner parties or meeting for coffee or what kind of low investments or that? Just to see if I can go to the next step with it or they're even interested in me.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, I, the Internet's not gonna like this. The Internet's not gonna like this.

[Dan Buettner]

Get ready, Internet ready, Internet. Google, pay attention here.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Everyone's gonna be like, I do this. Okay. I don't think it's easy to make a deep friend going to coffee. All right, I think, like, let's go to coffee together.

[Dan Buettner]

I like this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's sort of stiff. Like a date.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, you get there and you're like, so what do you, yeah, what do you do? What do you do? Oh, where are you from? Oh, you have two kids.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I have done hundreds of these.

[Dan Buettner]

I love this. This is so kind of wonderfully disruptive.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, it doesn't work. It's super awkward. And that is because you're in a socially scripted type of situation where you're kind of boxed by the kind of conversation you can have. Yes, it's possible to make a friend out of coffee, but boy, is it harder because you're sitting across like an interview, so you're already in a box. Right. Like, my brain is already like from a nonverbal perspective when we talk about cues. This is actually quite rigid in terms of cues. So I'm gonna be like, me, you, me, you, me, you. Right. Very rigid conversation. And like, you are limited. What really happens in coffee conversations is you're limited to one you talk about, oh, how old are your kids? Uhhuh. Where do they go to school? Uhhuh. How long have you been doing that? Uhhuh. How long have you married? Uhhuh. Oh, how did you meet? Uh huh. I could script the conversation.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I've done hundreds of these. And so you end up being like, well, that was nice. And you go home, you have. You're not dopamine filled, you're not oxytocin film, you don't feel connection. So I would say don't do that. I would much rather you either do something new together. So literally ask them, hey, I've been willing, I've been wanting to try this new trail or this new restaurant or I hey, I got the Blue Zones cookbook and I wanted to try one of the recipes. Do you want to come over and try it with me? Or I'll make it for you. Trying something new together or for each other is an incredible way to very quickly build friendship get out of the box. So try trying something new together or asking for a favor and I share this.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, that's cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's a weird one. I want you to ask for a favor that is of service. It is actually gifting. And what I mean by that is like, hey, I wanted to try this new Blue Zones recipe, but I'm afraid to make it for my family. Do you want to come over and be my guinea pig and I'll cook it for you? Or can I ask a favor? It's my New Year's resolution goal to get in 10,000 steps a day, and I am having a heck of a time getting in those steps. Would you by Any chance. Want to go on a walk with me on Mondays or Fridays or. You know, I drop my kids off at school on Mondays and I have an hour to kill before my. My work. You know, quick favorite. Is there anything that you like to do in that area? You want to grab, you know, breakfast with me?

[Dan Buettner]

Now imagine the other half of the population. Dudes. You know, it's much harder for dudes to call up another guy. You want to come cook a recipe with me? They get the wrong idea.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That was for women. I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Okay, so let's. Let's talk about dudes. I don't usually call them dudes. Gentlemen, let's talk about the gentleman.

[Dan Buettner]

Think of your husband. And.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And, oh, yeah, no, actually, I'll give you a funny story with my husband on this. So I've watched my husband. I'm with my husband for 20 years. I've watched him make friends and not make friends over the last 20 years. And men do make friendships differently. One very specific cue difference is women typically like face to face talk. Like, that's why they typically will, like, go to dinner together or have cocktails together. Men typically like side by side talk. That's why they go up to the bar or they drive next to each other or they sit at a baseball game together. They typically like to open up side by side. So weird. But for some reason, men just like that better. So this is a really, really weird tip. But men, if you want to make friends, try to find side by side opportunities.

[Dan Buettner]

I love that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Go to a bar and watch a game. Go to a game and watch a game. Hike next to each other, Drive next to each other, walk next to each other. Also try something new. Go surfing together. Be like, hey, but I saw this surf lesson. Do you want to try it? Hey, do you want to snorkel? Or even, like, you know, my kid is. Is doing this ballet class on Saturday mornings. I kill time. And I was thinking about going to the motocross across the street. Do you want to go with me? Right, like, we can do it like that. We can triangulate our schedule that way.

[Dan Buettner]

By the way, it just occurs to me, like, pickleball and racket sports are so good for your longevity. But also, you could call and say, you know, we need a fourth.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it.

[Dan Buettner]

Or, you know, I need someone to hit with. And you kind of. You have a. You have a reason other than, hey, I want to hang with you. No, I need somebody to play with.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's a favor. That gives. That's a favor that give. I need. I need a fourth.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Favor that gives. Right. You need the fourth, but also you're giving them pickleball. Yeah, actually. So I play pickleball with my dad. My dad, I love pickleball so much. And he has met his. His girlfriend and all of his friends at pickleball.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Because we go to open play in his area.

[Dan Buettner]

I think pickleball is one of the greatest social innovations of the last half century.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It is incredible. So if that. If it's pickleball or racket sports or tennis, going to racquetball and actually learning pickleball is a great investment you can make in longevity simply because you have to do it with others. I'll give you another example. So learning something new. Same thing applies. It's different kinds of things. I love the idea of pickleball. I also have noticed that men typically bond over. I only way. I don't know how to say this is keywords, meaning. I've watched this with my husband. If I introduce him to another man. This just happened where we were at a birthday party at a trampoline park, and I knew there was this other dad who was very similar to my husband, and I really was like, I think they would like each other. Like, I was, like, doing a little matchmaking. And they both do rural investment properties. My husband's very into rural investment properties. And so I said, scott, come here, come here. And I went, rural investment properties. And then I just backed up and they talked to me the rest of the party because I just. I do rural investment properties.

[Dan Buettner]

It's like rolling a boulder down the hill. It's just gonna keep going.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And they were just talking. And so, you know, one, if you're a woman listening and you want to set up someone on a guy on a friendship date or a friendship talk, just drop a keyword and back away.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Second, if you're a guy and you have a couple keywords on your list of topics you like, just. Just drop them in conversation. Just be like, rural investment properties.

[Dan Buettner]

I love that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And if they pick up the rock, you know, they're going to be like, yes, rural investment properties. And they're like, yeah, you could try another one. Pickleball. Or. Oh, you play collecting rocks, Right. Like.

[Dan Buettner]

Like, you could just throw the tree to know homopho. We like people like us who have. So. So we've talked about women to women and then men to men. But let's talk about cross gender because, you know, one of the other Secrets to longevity, by the way, is being in a committed relationship. And we know that people who are married live up to six years longer than people who are divorced, singled or widowed. So one of the. Another great longevity strategy is find a partner who you can really live with. And by the way, women are much better for men than men are for women. Women tend to be more health minded. They tend to be more, they take care. And the research shows very clearly that when a woman dies, the man dies very quickly after. And when the man dies, the woman kind of survives on her own. Maybe not as long as she would if she were still married, but she doesn't need the man as much as the man need the woman. So that's just a compliment to your gender, really. But I was out with the, I was out with three kind of cool guys here in Los Angeles last night. They're all single.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And you know, of course, the conversation was dating and women and so forth. And one of the big ones was so on the first date, how much time should you talk about yourself and how much time should you be asking them, you know, have you thought about what, what the right balance is? And, and I guess this is not just dating, but just a conversation with anybody. How much is it just you talking and how much? Because you remember from how to Win Friends and Influence People that people love to hear their own name. People love to talk about themselves. So a lot of times you can just ask questions and, you know, put it on auto. Listen. What's the right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I think this is with both first dates as well as friendship dates, which is that what you're trying to signal and what you're trying to find is similarities, similarity, attraction, effect, as we mentioned. Me too. Moments that could be you talking more, especially if you're with an introvert. That could be you talking less and listening more if you're with an extrovert. So actually, I won't give a hard and fast rule except for you should find out what kind of person you're on a date with.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, as a National Geographic Explorer, I spend most of my life on the road. I like to say my main residence is a backpack. But actually I also have a real home. But it doesn't have to be empty while I'm away. And because I'm not there most of the time, I usually host on Airbnb while I'm away. Next month, in fact, I'm taking a team of scientists to Sardinia, where we found a new blue zone. And while I'm away My home will be on Airbnb because it makes sense and the income I make off of that covers most of my expenses. So I'm a big fan of Airbnb and how it solves a big corner of my little universe. You know, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host hi, it's Dan Buettner. I've spent my career studying the healthiest, longest lived people on earth, the people of the blue zones. And a key theme I found is that their longevity isn't about extreme diets or punishing workouts. It's about setting up the right environment and having your unconscious choices be slightly better over time. The same principle applies to our dogs. What if you could give your best friend a healthier, longer life with one simple daily change? That's why I'm excited about Get Joy's freeze dried raw dog Food food. It's a clean, simple, whole food diet. No fillers, no artificial ingredients, just 100% real USDA sourced ingredients packed with gut, healthy probiotics and prebiotics. And the best part? It's effortless. Just scoop and serve. No thawing, no prep. It's real food that fits your real life. When your dog is eating better, you'll see it in their energy, their shiny coat, and their overall vitality. Give your dog the gift of a healthier, more joyful life. And to get you started, Get Joy has a special offer for my listeners. You can save 30% on your first order plus receive a free scoop and a free bag of treats. $33 [e-mail] DanB.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I think there are two different kinds of people on a date. The entertainers or the people who want to be entertained.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, that's a good insight.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it's the same with VIPs. By the way. I've, you know, met with some very interesting, important people and celebrities and I found that they're, they fall into these two types. The entertainers want to be talking. They love to hear you laugh. They love to hear you go, oh, what? No way. They thrive off of entertaining you. They have a whole chock full of stories that they like to bring up. They have a bunch of really interesting answers. Answers. They want to entertain you. The gift you can give them on in a date is to be entertained, be wowed.

[Dan Buettner]

But you have to listen ahead of time to know what kind of person they are. Because I'm guessing if you're, if you're an entertainer and you go out on A date with entertaining and all you do is, is talking to each other all night. It's not going to be very successful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But wouldn't. Wasn't that better to know if you're, if you're two entertainers, you're probably not going to have a good relationship. You're both in life. Exactly. So I would. When you ask the question, have any fun and exciting plans coming up, an entertainer will give you a long, fun. Good answer. Yeah, right.

[Dan Buettner]

An hour later, he'll love you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, exactly. So they'll give you a long answer. That's why those, those questions that I asked, working on anything exciting recently or have any fun or exciting plans coming up, they're ways to gauge is this person going to be an entertainer or are they going to want to be entertained?

[Dan Buettner]

So that's, that's a really important point right there, listening. Are they an entertainer or do they want to be entertained? And that sets you up in how to have the rest of the conversation.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And the rest of your life if you're in a relationship with them. Do you want to be entertained for the rest of your life? Great.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Or do you want to be the one who delights your partner all the time? They laugh easily at your jokes. They're so in awe. Great. Neither of those are right or wrong. Now, people who want to be entertained, totally different. So these are folks who will answer very briefly or quickly. In their answers, they tend to be more introverted, but not always. They want to sit back and they want to hear all about you. They want to hear funny stories, they want to hear good stories. They often won't talk very much. In fact, it takes them quite a bit to get talking. I've noticed a lot of VIPs, a lot of celebrities, they are actually, they might be entertaining on stage, really, but in dinner, in a green room, they.

[Dan Buettner]

Want to hear from you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They want to hear from you. They want to be off. They don't want to have to entertain off stage too. So it might surprise you. And sometimes like online personalities, you know, a lot of my friends do online dating. You don't always know from their picture, they seem extroverted, they seem really talkative over text, over chat. But actually in person, they're very different. So that's the very first thing you want to figure out, is what kind of person are there? Are they? And now here's the advanced tip. And this is something I teach my students. In every conversation, there's a passenger and a driver, right? And so you have to figure out how to play both roles. Well, expert conversationalists are very good at flexibly hopping in the driver's seat seat or the passenger seat. So if you have an entertainer, you are a passenger. Really good passengers listen very well, ask lots of follow up questions, are easy laughers are easy to awe, and they follow the energy. If something goes good, they celebrate. If something goes bad, they commiserate. Right, Great passenger. And that's a skill and anyone can learn it. Versus you have someone who will not get out of the passenger seat, they will not drive. These are the people who, they answer one word and they never ask you anything back. They do not want to drive that conversation, the gift you can give is hopping in the driver's seat and saying, all right, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions and I'm going to ask you some follow ups, but I'm going to tell you a lot of stories. And when you are in the driver's seat, you can steer the conversation to topics you like. You can search for conversation topics that they like. You can hopefully be odd when they do answer, and you can decide if you want to go from level one to level two or level two to level three level.

[Dan Buettner]

But you know, there are people who are good storytellers, they're good entertainers, they're good drivers as you call them. And there's just other people who don't have that skill. And if you're not a good storyteller, what do you do? What do you do if you all of a sudden find yourself in a, in a, in a conversation with somebody else who you like but just isn't a driver?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I mean, this is going to be harsh, but I think it's a limiting belief to think that you cannot learn how to be a conversational driver.

[Dan Buettner]

Tell me how to be a conversational driver.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

When you have conversational tools, if you're willing to put in the effort and you're willing to be courageous, you can learn to drive the conversation. The trick here is it's twofold. One of it is just skills and I can give you the conversation start to do that. We've already started it. But second is the courage. And it does take courage to be a conversational driver because it means you might tell a story that doesn't get a laugh. It means you might ask a question that someone doesn't like or doesn't have the answer to and you have to be able to pivot. And it means that you are willing to take control even if you don't exactly know How.

[Dan Buettner]

But isn't it true? You're either asking a question of a person or you're telling something. You're conveying a story about your own life or something else, or you're giving a relevant fact.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And that's driving. So conversational tools are. You have questions you can ask. So you're going to have context cues. You can ask about fun and exciting plans coming up. You can ask about core values or ways that they spend their time. You can ask them about their watering hole. You also can have a story toolbox. So this is the other thing that I want every single person on this planet to have, which is you should have an arsenal of answers and stories that you're proud of, that you like sharing, that give you dopamine when you share them, and they lead to topics that you like. So I have stories.

[Dan Buettner]

This is so wonderfully helpful because what comes out of your mouth like water out of a faucet, I just think so many people are craving and it's so. It's so important to leading a good life, but we don't know how to do it. Would you just repeat those three things again?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. What did I say?

[Dan Buettner]

Do you have a stockpile of stories?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay.

[Dan Buettner]

I think that's bigger than people realize.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Every person should have a arsenal, a stockpile of stories and answers that they are proud to share, that are life giving, that give you dopamine when you share them and actually connect to the others.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, connect to the others, too. They want to hear it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And. And it shares little subtle core values. Right. Like my stories. And the stories that I want you to have are stories that you're just dropping values. So if someone else has a similar value, they can pick it up. Right. You're dropping that rock out there that they can try to pick up. Okay, so what are those stories in your life? They can be funny stories. Let's start with those. Are there funny things that have happened to you in your life that you can share? How you met your partner, a funny, embarrassing story, how you got into your career, how you had a lowlight of your career, how you had a highlight of your career. Right. Just great stories. Funny or interesting? I also want you to have answers of things that you do that are interesting or intriguing. And the hard part about this is you have to be willing to do interesting and intriguing things. And this is a challenge. I understand this. I think I've noticed over the last 10 years. I've been doing this since 2007. So I put up my first YouTube video in 2007.

[Dan Buettner]

Wow.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Didn't go viral till 2009.

[Dan Buettner]

Where do we find you on YouTube?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, Vanessa Van Edwards.

[Dan Buettner]

Okay.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, the old videos. The old videos are a little rough, so be a little generous with those. So I started in 2007, and I've noticed changes in people in 2007. The Facebook had just kind of started to. The Facebook, and it was just in colleges. So social media had not hit yet. And I've watched over the last two decades, 18 years, how we've changed. And the number one change I've seen is people are doing less interesting things, and that is because they are seeing interesting things, and it tricks your brain into thinking that we're doing them.

[Dan Buettner]

I just did that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, right. And what happens?

[Dan Buettner]

I don't need to do it. I saw it on Instagram.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. You in your phone. You have the most interesting thing in the world in the world on your phone. So you feel like, why do I have to do interesting things when I'm just watching other people do the most interesting things that I could possibly see? So I've noticed that people have less hobbies, less risks, less quests. So I would challenge you. Can you do a quest? And I literally mean a quest to.

[Dan Buettner]

Give you something to talk about.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like. Like, for example, one of my friends was having trouble making friends, and he decided to do a quest where he would try the 50 best bars in.

[Dan Buettner]

The world I'm in.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And it involved travel.

[Dan Buettner]

It involved, I want to be with you for the next hour. I want to hear.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And you want to hear that one in Tokyo. They did what? And then there was one in this. And what he did is one. He'd go with people. So he started to reach out to friends who he kind of had an inkling that he liked and say, hey, there's a place in Chicago. And you're, you know, you're in Chicago. I wanted to try this. I'm doing the top 50 bars in the world. You want to go with me and knock this one off my list? Or he'd ask his friend from college, hey, I haven't seen you in a couple years, but do you want to go? This is a crazy idea, but New York City has one of the best bars in the world. You want to meet me there for, like, a guy's weekend? And he started to do trips with friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

But also, when he was out, he would talk about these great stories about all the different bars he went to the Worst cocktail he had and one of the best bars, the craziest ingredient they used it created harvested all these stories for him.

[Dan Buettner]

So just, just to sort of sum up that really great idea that the way to become more interesting is to find something you love and have the courage to go out and do it so you have a story to tell.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That's it. You are harvesting story stories from your own life. If you create a quest, and I do mean a quest and this is my big challenge. And if you do a quest for you, please tag me. I love to see them pick something specific and give it a number and give yourself a challenge to do all those things. So it could be. And I've heard all kinds of amazing quests. So Visit the top 50 bars in the world. I've heard cook the most popular dish in every culture. That's one that one of my friends is doing where she's trying to cook the most popular dish from every country around the world to just learn different cuisines. I've heard be able to read the top 50. I think she did 25. The top 25 best selling books around the world translated into English so she could learn about different cultures.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Is there different or. I want to. Even more local. I want to try the top 10 restaurants in my town.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, everybody wants to know where a good place to eat is.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I want to. I'm going to try every coffee, every vanilla latte in town and I'm going to rank them on a scale of 1 to 20. I'm going to have a list of the best coffee in town. I'm going to learn how to make sushi and I'm gonna have a party at the end of the month for all my friends and I make sushi for them.

[Dan Buettner]

That's so cool.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like this is a quest where there's a number around it and you get galvanized around it and it harvests all these stories. And my secret goal here is it loops in people.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, right.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like if you're making sushi for people, you're having a party. If you're going and trying something new, you can invite friends to do it with you. And that way it's giving you recommendations, it's giving you stories and I think everyone should have a quest. So for example, I just moved to a new town and my quest right now is to try the top 50 restaurants in my new town. I want to try all of them. Right. And also I want to know like, you know, what's the best One, what has the best is. And I gave my daughters a quest. So I have a seven year old and a two and a half year old. So we do family quests and I highly recommend do a quest with your family or with your partner. So I told my daughters, we are going to find our beach. We're right on the beach and there's a bunch of different little beaches. They all have kind of different flavors.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

So I said, okay, as a family, over the next two months, we are gonna find our beach. We're gonna rate them on sand quality, wave quality, amenities. I actually had to teach my 7 year old about amenities like bathrooms and showers. And then I said, and then overall fun score. So we just did a beach on Saturday and we all got back in the car, Sandy and I said, okay, time to give it a rating. Fun score. Both my daughters were like 10. They give everything a 10. So.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

They're not great scorers. I was like, the bathrooms were like, you know, not great. And they were like 10. And I was like, like, well, were they.

[Dan Buettner]

They have their mother's exuberance.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. So, you know, as a family, we're even trying all those beaches to pick our family beach. Is there one that you could do with your family?

[Dan Buettner]

I love that. It's sort of like looking through life through the prism of how you're going to be interesting socially. It's, it's, it how to be inter. How to make your own life interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. And, and that means having courage to do interesting things. That's why I mentioned there's this, there's this courage factor. And by the way, bonus points if you can do one with a friend. Like, think of a quest you could do. Like you want to go to the national park and see if you can, you know, hike all the trails in that national park nearby you. Will a friend do that with you? You want to read, you know, the top 10 books of the year last year. Will a friend do that with you? Like, if you can do it with a friend, you can do that.

[Dan Buettner]

If you think about it, the greatest novels in the history of literature are Quest, the Odyssey or Don Quixote de la Mancha. They're all about starting off on a journey of discovery and as that unfolds. And if you can do that in your own life and learn how to tell that story that hooks somebody, takes them on the journey and delivers what you found, you got them hooked.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I have a secret desire for encouraging people to do quests, which is, I mentioned Level three, self narrative. When you do a quest, you become the hero of your own life. And when you are the hero of your own life, you have more confidence, you have more agency, you have more purpose, you have more intention. And so I also want you to do a quest because I want to get your self narrative into the hero arc, not the victim arc. I think there are many different themes of self narratives.

[Dan Buettner]

It's easy to lot to bitch about in today's world, and it's very easy.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

To be a passive observer of your own life. Yeah, and I like main character energy. You know, I like people who are like the main characters of their own lives. I like people who are the heroes of their life. We also like that very highly charismatic people. They have purpose. They're climbing some kind of a mountain, whatever mountain that is for you. So my goal with the quest is, could you create a hero's journey for yourself where you set out to do something challenging and you had courage and hard work and grit and you got yourself out of bed and you turned off your phone and you went and did it. That is true.

[Dan Buettner]

Just so people aren't intimidated by this idea of a quiet. I'm going to go around the world, find the greatest bar. You know, my daughter, I love her. She. She is a master of Netflix. And I mean, she has a job she's very good at. She's a social media manager. Her name's Irene. And. But she loves Netflix. And when. When I get together with her, I can always ask her what, what, you know, I'm look, I'm looking for action adventure. And. And she is. She's on top. And she. She's at least seen the review and she can tell you and.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay, I love it. So, yes, yes. There's nothing too small to be a quest. For example, if Netflix right now is your comfort zone and your passion, great. Your quest could be watching the top 20 documentaries on Netflix.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. And being able to tell me about it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. You could be a Netflix matchmaker. Right. Where you're like, oh, you like. Okay, what was your favorite show? Okay, I'm gonna find the matchmaking show. That's perfect for you. I did a project once called Book Soulmates, where I would ask people a bunch of questions about their favorite book and then try to find them a book Soulmate. You could do the same thing with shows or social media accounts like Stay. If you want to stay in your comfort zone, you can start. There's no such thing as too small. It's still going to give you so much to talk about and to think about. And also, have you been known for?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And this is the other thing that I think we undervalue. We put so much focus on our career identity and this is really hard because we're such a career focused society. It's why we ask, what do you do right away? And so we put all everything into our credentials and our level and our salary and what we do. But could you be known for something else?

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

A question that I sometimes ask people is, if you had to give a TED Talk on something that you don't do for a living, what would your TED Talk be about?

[Dan Buettner]

I love that one.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And people who have an answer, I find are typically happier.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, it goes right back to the question we started this conversation with. Don't tell me what? Don't ask what people do. Ask them what they're excited about and if they've taken this quest, whether it's just learning the best shows on Netflix and Blame Us or what's the best cupcake.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Like, you can literally sit down with your, with your new friend and say, you know, I listened to this great podcast with Dan and Vanessa and they, they recommended I go on a quest and here's what I was thinking about and I wanted to invite you.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Blame us.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, this is all connected. I love this. It's like this interconnected. Yes.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Send this podcast constellation, send this podcast to someone else and be like, this podcast made me think of you.

[Dan Buettner]

I'm almost seeing the visual of all this, how all these connect. Find a quest and know what's exciting. Yeah. Talk about it and involve somebody else and do it. Make it so you're doing good for others. You can see this sort of accelerating, accelerate.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I see it as all a big web. And I also think, like, that is a concept.

[Dan Buettner]

Let's make that together after this conversation.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Let's do it. Let's try it out. I also think, like, it's a concept called pebbling. Have you heard of pebbling?

[Dan Buettner]

I haven't.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

It's. It's what penguins do. Penguins often have long time mates, certain species, and they give pebbles to their partner. Like they bring pebbles to their partner. They find. And this is called pebbling today, where you send a meme to a friend or a podcast you liked or a link that you thought was interesting or a really cool Pinterest pin. It's called pebbling. And so that's another way that we build friendship is we begin to pebble for them. So if you liked this podcast, Go give them. This podcast made me think of you. If you see a really funny meme, this meme made me think of you. I am constantly sharing on Instagram. So I'm on Instagram and I am, whenever I see anything that reminds me of anyone, I mean literally any of my friends, any of my siblings, I am constantly sending, like the old days.

[Dan Buettner]

Where you cut out an article and.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

My dad still does.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, I love that.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

My dad, he takes pictures of what he's cut out from the newspaper and he sends it to me. So pebbling, that's the other way we maintain friendships.

[Dan Buettner]

I like that verb, send them things.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

That make them think of you.

[Dan Buettner]

This leads to a really important question, one I've given a lot of thought to. So, you know, I've interviewed about 400 centenarians, he's 100 year old olds. Because I'm a big believer that in finding people achieve the outcomes we want or the lives we want, and then reverse engineering or learning from that, that collective. But one thing I noticed was that people who are making it to 100 are almost always likable. They're interesting and interested and they're often a certain generosity. And I thought about, I don't know if they were born likable or somehow learned it, but for those of us, and let's just face it, there are a lot of people who aren't likable, but I don't think they want to not be likable.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Of course not.

[Dan Buettner]

But how do you become likable? Is there an answer to that question?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. I also remembered, I think you mentioned this in your Netflix series and it stuck with me. You said that most of the folks you interviewed saw the positive of relationships. Like if someone did something, they assumed the best from them. But they weren't complainers or nitpicking or judgmental. I was like, oh, gotta work on that. Judgment was literally what I thought when you said that. I was like, oh man, judgment, you know, being judgmental I think actually kills likability. There was a study that was done that looked at the cool kids in school. And this was something, you know, as an. I was not a cool kid in school. I really struggled in school. Oh my God, no. So it was just agony. Just agony. And so I think about that time period a lot. And here I found this study about exactly that. Why are certain kids so well liked? And certain kids aren't literally the ultimate study of likability from that adolescent age. And they had all these hypotheses Are the most likable kids more athletic? Are they higher gpa? Are they more extroverted? Are they funnier? Are they more attractive? They looked at all these things and what they found. They did this across a variety of high schools and a variety of ages through from 9th through 12th grade. And they found there was one single predictor of who will be the most likable, most popular kid. And it was that kid had the longest list of people that they liked.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, wow.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

In other words, yes, there were kids.

[Dan Buettner]

Can you force yourself to like somebody you just don't like?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes, in that if you are asking the right questions and searching for me too moments and setting them up to be impressive, you are more likely to like more people. Okay, my awkwardness, I think my unlikability.

[Dan Buettner]

Learn how to like.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

If you want to be likable, learn how to like. In fact, be free with your likes. The most popular kids were the ones who were first likers. In other words, they walk down the hallway and they say, hey Dan, Hey Sarah, hey Joy. They're the ones who walk into a class and be like, hey, you want to sit with me? They are inviters, they are likers. They are looking for good. And in that way, I think that we can train ourselves to be more likable by searching and hunting for like, if you walk into a room, assuming I could like most of these people, if I ask the right questions, if I set them up for success by having them impress me, you are more likely to like someone, which actually makes you more likable.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, I. My daytime job is, I work with, I get paid by insurance companies to raise the life expectancy of cities. And one of the way, one of the ways you do that is you get city leaders to get on board with you to help change the environment. And we often think that the mayor or the city council, they're the most powerful people, but usually they're not. There's this unofficial power structure, especially small towns. And generally I, and I've learned this over time, you want to look for the person who is most. If, if you had a fundraiser, they could get the most people in the room. That's the person who you. That's the person with the power, the people other. The person other people looks to for we're going to do this or not, or the person who. We're going to get this thing done, we're going to turn to this person. And they're often just, you know, they live three streets back and, but, but they're, they're connectors.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. They're social powerhouses.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Okay. So social powerhouses are these beautiful people, and if you are one incredible. You have a gift you should be sharing with the world. If you're not one, you should know one, because you know what the best place to be other than being a social powerhouse is the best friend of the social powerhouse. I like that because they're the ones who host all the parties. And actually, hosting is a. You mentioned it earlier, and I wanted to circle back to it, so thank you for bringing it up. Hosting people in your home has a kind of magical effect for intimacy. So the next courageous step you can make is, could I host more?

[Dan Buettner]

Yes. I so agree.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Especially a book party, a dinner party, a cocktail party. I like groups of 4 to 12. That's my favorite size group.

[Dan Buettner]

Yep. I'm with you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I think if you can have a shared experience, that you're doing even better. So that could be trying a new recipe. That could be hearing from a speaker. That could be even as simple as I. A lot of millennials do this, and I'm. I'm trying to spread the word, which is you can have a party where it's called a forcing party. A forcing party is what millennials do, where you force all your friends to do things that they've been putting off but really need to do, like file a passport or get a passport or clear out their inbox or organize their photos, and you all do it together. Or you could all be like, we're gonna actually finally read this book together, or we're actually gonna try this thing together. You actually do a party around a theme or a task you all have to do together. Or you can just have fun. Of course, I find that people are intimidated more when there's nothing to do.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, we're on the topic of vulnerability and the Dan Buhner podcast, you get extra points for vulnerability. And, you know, you're this incredibly accomplished, mediagenic, incandescent, I would say, but I'm just a reporter. But no, you really are. You really. The reason I think you're so popular is you're. You're authentic. You've done the research, but you've really thought about how what I've learned can enrich other people's lives. And it comes through, Vinay. It's really powerful. But I know that life hasn't always been easy for you. And I don't know the. The exact circumstance, but you've alluded to that you've had some really awkward and painful social Moments and I wonder if you could share a really vulnerable one, maybe a lowest social that might have spawned you into doing this work.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, I really felt like for many years something was wrong with me. I just felt like I missed the memoir.

[Dan Buettner]

Think about one time when you were.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Many times, I think probably my entire freshman year of college.

[Dan Buettner]

There we go. Where were you?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I mean, I was at Emory University. I love Emory. I always feel bad when I say, like whenever I share anything about Emory because I'm like, oh, my. I had terrible social memories there. But it was a beautiful sense of grade school. I just, I thought, I thought, you know, you'd go to college and it was the best years of your life. You know, you make, you make your best friends for your whole life. Right? Like, that's what you hear about college. And, and I got to college and I had no idea what to do other than go to class. I felt like something was wrong with me. I had no idea how to talk to other people. I felt like I was saying the wrong things constantly. I also just was like, lonely. I was so left out. You know, people were going to parties that I wasn't invited to, that I did not know about. I did not. I would sit in class and want so desperately to talk to people next to me and just had no idea how, you know, like we were here, that we were in the same class, in the same school, same grade, and I had no idea how to relate to them. And I felt so unlikable. I just felt like I liked weird things and I wasn't invited to anything. And I, you know, didn't rush, I didn't. I was so scared of anything that was social. And so I just triple majored and put my head down and I just felt so lonely. It's actually one of the reasons I went abroad to China is I figured, you know, I don't have much here, so I might as well go across.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, what I find so. And I think encouraging to those people are listening to us right now who are saying, you know, I can never be interesting. I'm lonely. I can never not be lonely. I was there and here you were that person. And it turns out that, I mean, you're mediagenic and you're smart, but most people are smart. Most people can put on a good side that everybody wants. And just about everything you tell us is in well within the grasp of everybody listening right now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. I also think, like, I felt very broken and I think that that was like, if I. Many of my students sense that there's something wrong with them or malfunctioning or broken or, like, unfixable, unlikable. I had the same feeling for many years, especially being around a lot of people or I was around a lot of people. I lived in a dorm. I was going to classes, I had some friends, but I felt so wrong. I felt like I was always doing things wrong. I felt so different. I felt like I just did not belong. I felt awkward. I felt uncomfortable. I wasn't invited to anything, you know, Like, I had, like. My only friend from college is my roommate because she had to be friends with me, and she saw the real me, and that is my best friend. She's my mate of honor.

[Dan Buettner]

It's like having to code for the. For. For programming, but not knowing the language. But. Yeah, but what was the. What was the. The point at which you. You. Maybe it was the lowest point where you said, I'm actually going to study this. And it was. I'm guessing it was for you first.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah.

[Dan Buettner]

And then later, you know, cues and, you know, celebrity dumb.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah. I had a moment. There was a moment. I was in a class in college and there. There was a group paper where you had to write a paper with three other people. And that was terrifying to me, you know, writing a paper with some. With other people. Like, I can't do that. So I went to my professor in his office hours and I said, I will write double the amount of pages if I can do it by myself. And he goes. And he was like, vanessa, love this version.

[Dan Buettner]

Time to come out of the shell.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

He goes, this is not about the writing skills. It's about the people skills.

[Dan Buettner]

Interesting.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I was like. And I. He. I started crying in his office. And I was like, I don't know how to work with people. I don't know how to do it. Like, I'm better off by myself. I do everything better by myself. And I really did feel that way at the time, that I was just better off doing everything by myself. And he was like, vanessa, you can learn this. He's like, why don't you study? He literally said, why don't you study for people like you study for chem? I was like, what? He's like, look, you like the research. You like having shortcuts and blueprints and formula. You can have formula. He's like, here's a bunch of research of how to read facial expressions. Like, one of the first things he gave me was how to read facial expressions, because I have a really hard time reading faces. And I often misinterpret neutral faces as negative. So one of the reasons that I thought people were always angry at me all the time, I literally thought people were angry at me all the time, is because I misinterpret neutral faces as negative. So he said, you're misinterpreting people being angry at you. They're not angry at you, they're actually neutral. So he showed me the research on facial expressions. He showed me a bunch of research on conversation and dyads and like, very research specific. He said, make flashcards for, you know, going out. Make flashcards for how you're gonna use conversation, make flashcards for faces and start studying people as if I'm gonna test you on it. And that was the unlock for me of like this I can do.

[Dan Buettner]

You know, some people would say that's inauthentic, but I think it's what most Americans need, especially now. And so many people are lonely. We need those training wheels. And most of us have the authenticity in us to be socially graceful. But it's just like you don't get on a two wheel bike and start pedaling it. You need the training wheels, the sort.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Of support tools, right? Like, I want to be authentic. I just had no idea how, like, I was. I really wanted to learn about people, but I was like, what do I say to learn about people? So I think that authenticity comes from intention, you know, Like, I think that that's the biggest pushback I get from my work. And it's the hardest thing I struggle with is people say, oh, it's inauthentic to use a conversation starter. Or like, it's manipulative. You know, if, yeah, if you're Charles Manson and he did take Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people course in.

[Dan Buettner]

Oh, he did.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

He did take it. Yeah. If, if your intention. Yeah, if your intention is like Charles Manson to trick people, then yeah, these tools are manipulative.

[Dan Buettner]

Just think of the title, win friends, not get friends to authentically like you and influence people, you know, manipulate them to do what you want them to do. It's not like, how do I make a real friend who likes me for who I am?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Right. And I think that your intention there is critical. Like, if your intention is to trick people and fake with people and get them to do something they don't want to do. Yeah, that. Then these, they can be used for manipulation. But if your goal is to try to connect with people and feel less lonely, yeah, it's a different set of Very different intention. And so I think that that's the biggest misrepresentation of people skills is people feel like, well, if I don't have it, I can't have it. And it's not authentic to try. It's like, no, no. If your intention is good, it's to feel connection and belonging and to lengthen your life and to have a support system and to serve, then that intention is incredibly good for authenticity.

[Dan Buettner]

I'm going to ask you a big question right now.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my goodness. I better drink a water.

[Dan Buettner]

And I'm going to. And this is something that. Imagine you have a room of 500 people, okay? They're big. They're not sitting in seats. It's a school gymnasium, okay. And you have an hour and a half with them, and you want them to walk out the door with a friend or two or three. What do you do with. What do you do with them for that hour and a half?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'll tell you exactly what I would do.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I would tell them that I have a list of every person in the room, which I would make sure I got beforehand. And I would say, there are three people in this room who you are meant to be friends with. I know who they are. Based on your skills and your personality, you need to find them. You have the next hour and a half. Here are three questions I want you to start asking. Working on anything exciting these days? Have any fun plans coming up? And maybe the third one would be, what's something most people don't know about you? Or how do you feel most misunderstood? That's one of my favorite questions. How do you feel most misunderstood? You have an hour and a half to find your three people. Once you find the three people, I want you to come up on stage. I'm gonna give you a prize. Now, there is a trick here, which is I didn't pick the three people, but I know that in that room of 500, you could find three people. If you are assuming that there are people who you could have kinship with and that everybody.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

There's everyone who's listening. Pretend that every room you enter there is a friend just waiting for you. Pretend. Assume liking. Assume that there is someone in that room who is meant to be your friend. With that assumption, you have more confidence, you have more intention, and it is easier to make friends.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

And I guarantee you most of that room would end up finding the person that was meant to be their friend.

[Dan Buettner]

And if you're one of these people, no, no, nobody likes me. I have nothing interesting. I guarantee you the other half of the room is the same way.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Exactly, exactly.

[Dan Buettner]

And they would love to find somebody who was in the same boat as they have.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Most people feel lonely, awkward, broken, like, no one's meant for them and they're unlikable. And if you find someone who you will genuinely like them, it's the first way they can be like, oh, I'm likable.

[Dan Buettner]

And by the way, if you, in a vulnerable way, tell somebody that that's the truth about yourself, you're gonna be likable.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. I'll give you an example of this. So I was invited to a very fancy party, a very fancy party with lots of very important people in Austin. And we get into the room, and immediately we all circle up. There's like maybe 20 of us. And the host says, all right, we have some really amazing people in this room. I'm immediately having imposter syndrome. I'm like, did they fake invite me? Like, is that the wrong invite? Like, why am I here? Oh, maybe I was supposed to serve the food. Like, I literally am. Like, why am I in the circle? That's not a good overthinking. And he said, I want everyone to go around, and I want you to tell us your name and what you do. My least favorite question. And I'm sweating. You know, I'm like, this is not gonna go well. The first person, like, no joke. He's like, well, I'm a billionaire and I cure cancer. And the next person was like, I invented the Internet. And the next person was like, I'm gonna fix climate change. Like, literally, like, when I say, these what do you do's were, like, the most impressive things. And then it gets to me, and I'm. I said, my name is Vanessa, and I'm a recovering awkward person.

[Dan Buettner]

I bet everybody loved you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Everyone laughed, and I said, and I teach smart, awkward people how to communicate. And I have a little YouTube channel and a couple books. And if you're an awkward person, you can find me later because these introductions are quite intimidating.

[Dan Buettner]

I love it.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I bet you everyone laughed, and then the most people came up to me afterwards, which was not my intention, but it was like that vulnerability piece that. Just saying. I feel so uncomfortable with these introductions and so out of place in this room that most of the people in that circle felt also out of place.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah. Because if I say, I invented the Internet, if I come up to you, what am I going to say?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

What am I going to say?

[Dan Buettner]

No one went up to him yeah. No one went up to him. Yeah. It's like nothing I could possibly say.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thanks for the Internet. I mean, you know what I mean?

[Dan Buettner]

You already know everything.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

You're curing climate change.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Great. Good luck. You know, like, what are you going to say? And so I think that that's. Again, we're going back that. To that full circle of, like, we have to. It's okay to share, like, part of your story, especially if it's not, like, perfect or if your goal is. Your intention is authenticity and meeting people, you don't have to have it all figured out. So if you feel unlikable, if you're entering a room, 500 people, and you really want to make friends, say, I'm looking for more friends. I really would like to make more friends my age or in this town or, you know, like, we can say that. And people actually connect.

[Dan Buettner]

So counterintuitively powerful.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yeah, it is.

[Dan Buettner]

So I'm going to ask you to sum this up, because this is the most powerful conversation I think I may have ever had.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my. Oh, Dan, that's so kind.

[Dan Buettner]

What? So right now I'm lonely. How do I. How do I set up my environment so I'm more likely to connect with people? How do I break the ice? How do I nurture an acquaintance? And. And then how do I bring them to a real friend?

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. Okay, so challenge number one. Make a list of the places that fuel you and the places that drain you. Then I want you to make a list of the people that fuel you and the people that drain you. Then I want you to pick a couple of watering holes or even one watering hole. This is a place or a topic that fills you. Ideally, it's something you enjoy doing or it's something you could learn to do. Doesn't have to be something you already know. It could be something you learn to do. Then I want you to pick a quest, something that you could do or try or learn, maybe with someone, maybe by yourself, that's gonna give you really good stories, that's gonna help you have something easy to talk about. Then I want you to go to those watering holes or go back to those places or reach out to a couple people, maybe from college that you haven't talked to in a while, or that neighbor or that friend of a friend, and invite them to your watering hole or tell them all about your quest. And the next time you see someone, ask. Working on anything exciting these days or have any fun plans coming up, Go on a what do you do? Diet. No more what do you do? No more how are you? No more where are you from? And then be intentional about the kind of friends you want to make. If you're lonely or you're lacking friendships, tell them you listen to this podcast. Tell them you're looking for more friends. That's how we find more friends. Looking for me too. Moments. Looking for shared vulnerability. Asking questions that set them up for success and let them impress you. And then in every conversation, assume this could be an amazing friend just waiting to befriend you.

[Dan Buettner]

Brilliant. You're so good. This is so good.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm sure I forgot something. I'm sure I did.

[Dan Buettner]

You probably just boiled down 2,000 years of human history and how to connect, especially in the modern day world. This is so great.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, and oh, oh, and put away your phone and take off your AirPods.

[Dan Buettner]

Yes, yes, yes. We hit that one early. So this is something that's going to be, I think, gonna resonate with you. So for those people who really impress our audience with their vulnerability, we.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Extra points for vulnerability. I did it.

[Dan Buettner]

So I hope you wear that to your watering hole.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Oh, my gosh. I love it. I'm gonna wear this from my new town. I'm gonna be like, do you know?

[Dan Buettner]

Extra points for vulnerability. I gave that T shirt to my 90 year old dad and he was the head of the beauty salon. He took my mod to the beauty salon.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'm gonna wear this out my new town. I'm doing it.

[Dan Buettner]

I wait.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Can't. I can't wait. I should get you one that says recovering awkward person.

[Dan Buettner]

That's another. Just beautiful. Everybody wants to talk to you. It's like they know. Well, I was like that. And this person obviously knows a little bit how to get out of this.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

I'll make you one back. I'll make you one back.

[Dan Buettner]

Yeah, well, you.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Thank you for this.

[Dan Buettner]

That's more than enough. That it's sharing your wisdom and your kindness and your tools for changing people's lives and helping them live longer.

[Vanessa Van Edwards]

Yes. That's it. It's the secret trick to longevity. Thank you for having me.

[Dan Buettner]

Thank you, Vanessa.