← The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
Football America! Top NFL Games of Week 12 with Conor Orr, Drip Drill with Mike Ryan Ruiz on the AFC East, And Why Miami is Better Than Notre Dame
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- [00:03]
A
Yes. Hi and hello, my fellow football Americans. Welcome to consequential NFL week 12. Welcome to Football America. Episode number 27. We're presented by DraftKings. As ever, DraftKings, the Crown is yours. We start by honoring the player who wore the episode number best. Like I say, number 27. Here's a weird thing, fellas. Ray Rice, Larry Johnson and Kareem Hunt. Boy, that number's got a stink on it. Mike and Gino. Gino, Mike Fuentes. You want to contribute here?
- [00:34]
B
Oh, thanks for bringing us down into the mud. I mean, I'm all right. I guess.
- [00:38]
A
I'm giving you the chance to shine. I'm the one who got dirty.
- [00:41]
B
All right, well, let's. Let's give it. Let's get a running back to sort of cleanse the palate. Let's do Eddie George. Just off the top of my head, for baseball, I'm going Vlad Guerrero. Guy could hit anything out of the park, even if it was literally in the dirt.
- [00:52]
C
Yeah, I will also go baseball. The Fuentes household had a lot of Atlanta Braves baseball when we were growing up. Right. Because that's what the local team before the Marlins came around.
- [01:01]
D
So Fred McGriff, the crime dog.
- [01:02]
A
Crime dog, yeah. Ooh, the crime dog. You know, baseball here. You know, everybody always says, let Mike Trout. Nobody knows who he is. He's the most anonymous superstar or one of the all time greats. And it is in fact true, because Mike trout wears number 27. And I refuse to believe that if you went out on the street, if we sent Tash out there with a microphone to say, nate, who, what, what number does Mike Trout wear? No baseball self identifying baseball fan would know what number Mike Trout, who is going to go down as one of the five best baseball players of all time. Anywho, we're talking about football and the football Americans of the week. Two guys who've been dropping me a line from Camp Hill, Pennsylvania over there near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Mitch and Brandon, lots of thoughts on Mike Fuentes's ugly posture. Inexplicable almost against the innocent bird called turkey. Mitch writes, love the show. It's great. I also think your buddy Mike is burying the lead about the overrated turkey. It's pumpkin pie that's overrated. Interesting thought there. Breaking news update on my Super Bowl 60 pick. It started out as everybody recalls, Buffalo v. San Francisco. But Bosa and Warner took that down and it was derailed by those injuries. Then it was Buffalo and Green Bay. But if the Pack loses this weekend, I'm officially Jumping to the Buffalo Bills versus the Los Angeles Rams. I talked to Jeff Shorts on Monday. He made the case for Philly. But Lane Johnson is their Jenga piece. If he's removed, and he is for a little stretch now, they may not implode, but the ceiling is officially lowered. And by the way, nobody's talking about this trend lately. The Chiefs are merely towing the line if they don't make the playoffs or if they, if, if they go out quickly in the playoffs, no super bowl runner up ever does well, always. Listen, file that one away for 2026 because it seems to be holding true once again. Let's see what this fella thinks about all of what I just said and even more before he heads off to the banks of the Three Rivers to watch his Miami Hurricanes take on the Pitt Panthers. It's our pal Mike Ryan Ruiz. What's the poop, fella?
- [03:12]
D
Thank you for having me here on Football America. Really excited to join this week because it's yet another platform that I could espouse my propaganda about the Miami Hurricanes and this unjust CFP committee.
- [03:25]
A
I asked you to. I was hoping you would join us before I even knew of the firestorm that you were about to start. But man, you're all over social media and beyond campaigning basically for the Miami Hurricanes. And I thought, Mike, as the world's greatest advocate for the 20th century system, which was all hash settled on New Year's Day, five bowl games, the 10 best teams by the time you put your head on the pillow, sad as you were because you knew when you woke up it was time to go back to school. Grim reality. At least you knew who the national champion was. And all the campaigning and all the rest of it was out the window because now we have a 12 team playoff and here we are. How say you?
- [04:09]
D
Well, I think the only issue with that is these huge mega contracts incentivize these corporate partners to really tout just specific conferences. And I don't know if teams like Clemson would have had a shot in, in the previous system to be national titles, to be national title winners. When you consider just the, the, the daily thudding over your head about sec, SEC and now the Big Ten right up there with the sec. Look, I know how I, I know I'm being annoying. I know there's a, an incredible volume of how people may perceive me crying. But the, I guess the shameful part about all this is. I understand all that. I don't even deny it. The, the real crime here is that it matters. You have A bunch of backroom bureaucrats that are impressionable and don't like being bullied. So rather than this happen last week of the season and having the rug pulled out from underneath you, you gotta start the messaging now. Even though when you know in your heart of hearts that Miami could let you down in late nove November like they have in years prior.
- [05:16]
A
Okay, as far as that goes, the thing, one of the things that I loved so much about the previous approach to college football, I mean, it was distinct from every other sport and how the hash was settled was different than every other sport. And one thing that was great about it versus every other league out there, professional, college or otherwise, was every week, every game mattered, even if it was played in August or in early September. Now, your canes took care of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. And this is the, the crux to your argument. You won the head to head and I agree with you about that. But given the new system, I hate to say it, I kind of feel like that kind of thinking that ship has sailed now. I think people no longer apply like, well, the head, that the games do mean a little bit less if they happened early in the season. I mean, that's the bottom line, right?
- [06:11]
D
It is the bottom line and it speaks to the arrogance of college football fans and the media because even when shown a result, when two teams played, they are convinced, and it's a majority opinion in this country, in football America, that Notre Dame is better than Miami. And it's such a strange thing because this sport, outside of baseball, this sport, more often than not in the playoffs, the better team doesn't always win. That's why you have coaches. That's why you develop game plans. You have one game samples. You, if a team played a team 10 times, the better team might win more. But we have individual samples. The national championship itself is an individual sample. And what happens in that singular game should have consequence.
- [06:58]
A
Well, that again, that's why college football at least used to have it over all the other sports. Every game was critically important and every game felt like each week was another chapter in the story. And if you dropped, no matter where in the novel you dropped the game, you no longer controlled your destiny. You no longer had claim to being in contention for the top spot until someone else dropped the game. That's kind of no longer true as far as the SEC touting and all that goes. Take a listen here. Mike, do you have the. The clip of Paul Feinbaum earlier this week trying to make a case for the SEC that I just Plum didn't.
- [07:37]
E
Understand not to sound like I'm waving the SEC flag is that the SEC week to week is more difficult. And if you look at what Alabama has done, I mean they played four straight highly regarded and ranked teams where Notre Dame's cherry picking. Yeah, I mean I give Notre Dame credit for going to Miami and playing Texas A and M. They also went to Arkansas which is at the bottom of the sec. But they're, they're really claim to fame right now are those wins over Miami and Southern Cal. They don't have the grind that the SEC has and I think that's where some of this SEC bias perception comes in. But come on down to the south and try to try to deal with the schedules and see what your record is and I guarantee you it will be inferior to the SEC records.
- [08:18]
D
I mean no real surprise there. Dave. He, he's the chief SEC propagandist. But again to the just the smugness of the college football fan and media, we've been chipping away at this SEC narrative. I've been trying to do it. I feel like I'm tilting at windmills a little bit because it's not the same. I, I would readily admit 10 years ago that that certainly was the case. But you got smacked in the face week one with a cellar dweller in FSU beating Alabama. The creme de la creme, the gold standard in the sec. And that is absent from any discussion. I don't understand how we all just subscribe to this notion that SEC is top dog when you're confronted with a result like that. That game wasn't close. FSU on a football field was loads better. We're not talking about a one possession field goal, late game execution. They were much better. I know teams evolve. I know teams get better and worse as the season goes on. But again, results are supposed to matter. If you just jumped in this season and took this season for what it was worth, which is what the committee should do, which is what college football fans should do and not attach any of the baggage from previous years, no one would think the SEC is as dominant as they're portrayed on television to be.
- [09:38]
A
That is exactly right. And that is the portion of your argument that I agree with the most we have been the repetition of it just means more and all that crap. And I get it. Alabama and Georgia have won the, and I guess lsu, you can put them in there too, have won the lion's share of titles way more than any other conference. Obviously. Also, we shouldn't ignore the More recent history of what the Big Ten's done when the tournament gets going in whatever form it Is, whether it's four teams or 12 and beyond. But the pap, the Huey and applesauce of fine bomb and this is what they always go to is, you know, you saw it last week when A and M was. Was getting challenged at the half. It was the case would immediately be like. See, it just shows how good the SEC is. It's so deep. It's so you, you can never take a week off. And Feinbaum's point there is.
- [10:34]
D
Hey, what you're.
- [10:35]
A
You're knocking Bama. They just beat four ranked teams. Highly regarded, who regarded them highly, who talked them into on some level. The record does some of the work, but also some of the commentary from high profile media people puts teams like Missouri in play. Is Missouri now still a highly regarded team? Are all those ranked teams from that that were ranked a month ago, are they still highly considered? Do they still deserve to your eyeball, do they still deserve that high ranking that they had before they lost the game? Of course not. The idea that if you put Ohio State or Notre Dame or another high end team or Oregon, let's throw them. If you threw them into the sec, the idea your results would be way worse. You, you wouldn't be able to get. What's the implication of that? That you would have a record, that Oregon would have South Carolina's record. If they had to play that schedule, they would be good. They would have about the same record as Alabama and Georgia and those teams do right now and pretty much every year. I. The argument is all predicated on jive as far as I'm concerned.
- [11:45]
D
As if we haven't seen Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas just dropped into that conference and have serious success. You mentioned the ranked wins, right? They cook those books. Half of Alabama's ranked wins are over Tennessee and Mizzou. Neither of those teams have had an FBS victory against a team that is over.500. They cook the books from the bottom of the rankings to elevate the bona fides of the teams up top. There's no reason SMU shouldn't be ranked. That was a CFP team last year. I guarantee you if they had an SEC logo they'd be ranked right now. But instead you have everybody reverse engineering arguments to avoid the unavoidable, which is Miami beat Notre Dame in a football game and that is what was supposed to be the number one tiebreaker. And then you get into quality losses and quality wins and sos and so are and SAG and all that. If you don't have a head to head matchup, it's a lunacy.
- [12:42]
A
Well, let's, let's be honest. Let's not jive ourselves or anyone listening to us right now. The fact of the matter is you go through all those computer generated assessments of teams, it all takes a back seat to. Come on, you know who's better is a. Yeah, I know that team lost, but you know. Yeah, come on. Yeah. You don't think Notre Dame would beat Miami if they played them right now that's, that's not the argument. That's not the way it's supposed to. Theoretically. Who would be favored?
- [13:11]
D
Who would be favored if those two teams played? I don't know, maybe Notre Dame. They were favored the last time they played. And how did that work out?
- [13:19]
A
What else do we. The worst one ever. And then we can move on a little bit here and we'll talk some pro football. But I get where you're coming from with this. The worst one ever when it was only a four team tournament. Wait, or was it two? No, it was two team tournament. I guess at that point was when they put head to head after LSU beat Bama in Tuscaloosa. It was still just the two team tournament then. And Andrew Luck Stanford was good and Brandon Weeden's Oklahoma State had only one loss and that was amidst tragedy on a Friday night and everything else as, as, as I recall. But LSU beat Bama in Bama's house and the excuse was, well, I mean the kicker for Bama missed three field goals. We know that they probably would have won the game if it weren't for that. So they put Bam in LSU back in the national championship game. Zero logic behind that other than, well, come on, you know, Alabama would beat Oklahoma State. Yeah. I also think that if you had put the Cowboys in the super bowl against the San Diego Chargers way back when, they would have beaten them too. Except that they lost the previous week to the 49ers. So the Chargers got to go because that's the system that is. Is available. Just as college football system should mean head to head rules over everything else. And it doesn't. But I what I will say trying to lean into the reality, for better or worse that we're living in right now, you've now set yourself up for this.
- [14:53]
D
Oh yeah.
- [14:54]
A
With your, with, with, with your pounding the table, let's assume you beat Pitt. Obviously if you lose, you have no case.
- [15:01]
D
Quite the assumption. Oh, if we lose I just go into a hole.
- [15:05]
A
Well, you know, this is a must win game according according to Pat Narduzzi, as opposed to the Notre Dame game. But. But you have to also now if the Met, they have it both ways. It's like, well, that doesn't matter that you beat, you won head to head against your competition at the start of the season. Now the yardstick is do the Canes beat a common opponent on the same level? Do they pound them the way the Irish just did? Because apparently November means more.
- [15:33]
D
You think common opponents matter? Miami beat a common opponent in NC State by more. Miami beat a common opponent that Alabama had in Florida State by more. They dominated that game regardless of what the final score said. It doesn't matter. What matters is people's preconceived notions and agendas. Dave to the pro as we go.
- [15:55]
A
Hey there, fellow football Americans. Do you feel that bit of chill in the air? I feel it and I'm in Los Angeles. Bad news. It's going to be 90 this weekend. But in the here and now, we can still celebrate the shared cool weather because it means football. And from tailgates to watch parties, there's only one beer to pair with fall and and football. I'm of course speaking about my beloved Miller Light, the light beer that's been the one for beer lovers like me since 1975. I wasn't drinking it in 1975 because that would have been against the law, but you take my point. For me, it's still the go to every time. Why? Because Miller Light is the great tasting light beer for people who love beer. It's brewed for taste and it's been trusted by beer lovers for 50 years. I've mentioned I'm one of those beer lovers. Yes, Miller is the kind of beer you can drink from kickoff to the final whistle without missing a beat. It's the smooth, golden flavor that somehow feels like football season with the iconic gold color and the malted barley. It's not too heavy, it's not too light. The perfect addition to a football Sunday. You know what? I go the extra mile. I drink it on football Saturdays too. Fun fact, Football Mondays. Whether it's a crowded bar or kickback on the couch, it's the beer I reach for on any of those days I just mentioned. And or all of them. Miller Lite. Great tasting. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com fba to find delivery options near you. Or. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller Time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Hi hello my fellow football Americans. Another quick detour away from pro football. Because I want to talk about the NBA. As you know by now, it's underway in DraftKings newest game. Pick six is the easiest way to play for your shot at big wins in pro basketball. NBA stars are lighting it up now. Their numbers aren't just highlights, they're your shot to cash in. Here's how it works. You just pick more or less on two or more player stats. The better your picks, the bigger your payout. So nail your picks tonight and don't just win. Stack up those payouts. New DraftKings customers get $50 and pick six credits with just a $5 entry on your first pick set. Don't just watch basketball. Pick play, cash in. Download the DraftKings Pick Six app now and use the code Damoshek. That's cool. Code Damashek D A M E S H E K Look who can spell his own last name. Play just $5, get $50 and pick six credits. Make the call. Ride the upside. In partnership with DraftKings pick six, the crown is yours. The other thing I'll say is, and you'll take this as a shot and I don't mean it. I do think that the it means more thing is the U is obviously one of the fancy pants halves of college football. The perception is a little different though, because when people see those empty seats and stuff like that in the pro football stadium in which they play their games, I think that has some weird impact on people. Is there anything to that or no, it does.
- [18:55]
D
I think Miami is a victim of something that they've deserved right now as people look at that SMU result particularly and say that's confirmation bias that they fooled you. Again. They're all talk, they're no action. And our preseason rankings are now justified because we under underrated them. So I hear you. I, I'm not going to do the context thing of well, they there's empty seats because they play in a 70,000 seat stadium. But I, I ultimately they have to win the games and for me that's always been the thing. Even when Notre Dame was ranked ahead of Miami. Initially I agreed with that. Miami had to show that they are not the same old Miami. We're halfway there though. We're halfway to the four no portion and right now they look like a changed team with a changed offense. At what point Does Miami get to be a different team since their loss the same way that Notre Dame is a different team after their two losses?
- [19:46]
A
Well, here's the good news and then we'll move on. Is the thing that people sort of ignore is what's on the near horizon between now and the end of the conference title games. I think a lot of that hash is going to be settled. A lot of the teams that may rank ahead of you right now are going to lose games because they have to play other teams that are ahead of you right now in the standings in both the College Football Playoff and in the ap. Super weird to look at those side by side that they still AP poll is here. That doesn't matter though. Even though it almost lines exactly with the College Football Playoff, it is annoying to me and it's a little less satisfying than it used to be. Although more football is more football, as Big Cat said once and I guess I have to agree with that. Speaking of more football, if since you're headed to the banks of the Three Rivers, if you need a place to crash, I know Modam Shack and Oakmont would be more than happy to to put my bed together for you and let you sleep in there. She'd probably even make you a little steak and eggs when you woke up in the morning.
- [20:45]
D
Okay, I'll structure fancy. I'll remember that when it comes time for a hungover breakfast. I think I'm going to hit up this place called Goose Keys and I'm totally open to any other recommendations you might have. Oh, I have.
- [20:57]
A
I'm going to send you a laundry list of recommendations. Pamela's is kind of the famous place to go, but downtown there are a number of good breakfast joints. I don't know when they went, when Pittsburgh became the breakfast capital of football America, but that's how, that's how I see it right now. Let's do Drip drill before time runs out on us here when my fellow fashion maven Mike Ryan and I tackle all the most important uniform related matters right now. We've ranked divisions in the past. We did already. What did we do here, Mike? We did AFC west, which we decided is the best looking division in football. And we did the NFC east already. Now let's do the afc, shall we? Close to your home and heart. And let's go four down to one. Let's rank the uniforms. We can discuss the here and now of them, but also look into the closet and see what you like from each of the franchises. And if you want to hold those up and celebrate them. So be it. Start us off, Mike.
- [21:58]
D
Bottom to top.
- [21:59]
A
Yes.
- [22:00]
D
Number four, the Miami Dolphins. Whoa.
- [22:04]
A
Right out of the gate. A little bit of a surprise for me.
- [22:07]
D
Why this logo makes no sense. That is a dolphin swimming. I understand why the sun is in the back of the original. The fins are always up. I get it. But are we shooting the dolphin from below? Is that what we're doing? That's the only way that you can have the dolphin swimming in this motion that is highlighted on the helmet. I like the helmet. Inception of the old dolphin helmet. It's a dolphin wearing a helmet. It's a helmet with a helmet on a helmet on a helmet. But at no point did the Dolphins ever win. The hell wear the helmet that the dolphin was wearing.
- [22:44]
B
Good point.
- [22:45]
D
Ultimately, the colors right now, too light. Both the. The aqua and the orange, way too light. It looks like garbage on television. Every time we see the throwbacks, we all point to the TV like DiCaprio and say that's what they're supposed to look like. It is too light. It has been going on for too long. It really hurts the contrast of the games. In this division in particular. I hate these uniforms. I was with everybody. Yeah, the late 90s alteration that needed a facelift. We had the facelift. Let's move on. It's time to go back to the throwbacks.
- [23:22]
B
You think you might be a little over familiar with this? Maybe you just see it more than all the other ones and you're just kind of like, okay, it's really starting to annoy me.
- [23:28]
D
Yeah, I'm over. Yeah, I'm super familiar with this because growing up, this was the only local TV of NFL game that I could see. And right now, progressively as I became familiar with this franchise, year over year, they tend to look worse.
- [23:43]
A
Yeah.
- [23:43]
C
Let me guess. You love the Patriots and Bills all red, white, blue. Whoa. There's white and there's red and they wear a red helmet.
- [23:51]
A
Well, there's. Mike wants carnitas on the side of the helmet. That's his solve for this.
- [23:56]
D
You're such a. You're such a. Know it all, Mike Fuentes. Honestly, this entire division, there's a theme here. Every single one of these teams have lost their way.
- [24:04]
A
That's right. That's right. Over correction was the problem. They. I don't know why in the middle of Dan Marino's career, they decided to add that drop shadow Navy and all. Just a mess. And they haven't gotten it right ever since. And as one of society's great empaths the day that they took that helmet off the dolphin. Okay, he's not a human being, but he's still a creature under God's. Under God's son. And to take the helmet off of him. I thought we were worried about concussions. Never mind. What? You also pointed out that old Miami Dolphins logo wore a white helmet with an orange M on it.
- [24:43]
D
Who the hell was that dolphin playing for?
- [24:45]
A
Were they so desperate to find a football playing dolphin? Like it doesn't matter if he's on the Dolphins. He plays for a team that wears an orange M. Bring him in and we'll put him on the side of our hat. Now we're lost at sea. Unlike that dolphin that now they wear on their helmet. Because he's not in the sea. He's somewhere up in the sky. Be. Be being silhouetted against the. Against the aforementioned sun. Fair. Go back to the old uniforms. But my number four is similar problems because they should just go back to the old way. The New England Patriots. Flying Elvis sucks. But okay. You made the change just before you had the royal blue version with Drew Bled. So then you transitioned into the Navy.
- [25:28]
D
I didn't mind those. I have. I'm sorry to admit, I know you're a Pat the Patriot guy. I. Their. Their 90s rebrand worked for me with the Pat the Patriot on both shoulder. Shoulder pads. I kind of dug them.
- [25:40]
A
I didn't hate them. Yeah. Ben Coates and all of that iconic down in. In that rainy Orange bowl game. I remember that one.
- [25:47]
D
Forget that Stone Cold Steve Austin. The 316 jersey. Mike Fuentes. You know about that? You know about the stone cold Steve Austin 316 jersey?
- [25:55]
C
I do know about the stone cold three.
- [25:56]
D
Google that.
- [25:57]
C
Yeah.
- [25:57]
A
Here. It's a fascinating philosophical debate that I think Bob Kraft and Tom Brady should be called in to participate in. I have taken this to some high profile New England patriots of the 21st century and they've agreed with my posture on this. Okay. It was a bad move to go Pat to dump Pat Patriot. The red with the white hat with the. With the Patriots snapping the ball betwixt his legs in favor of flying Elvis. But you did it. And then you won all them Super Bowls with Tom Brady. When Tom Brady left, that was the perfect opportunity to say that era now stands alone not just in New England, but for all of pro football, for all of time. Now we're going to go back to our old way and reintroduce Pat Patriot. That would have been a lovely move. Now they're stuck with this mess and they're really bottom of the barrel in pro football, in my opinion. They're really in the bottom five worst uniforms.
- [26:52]
D
It's not a mess. They need to keep the silver helmets even, dating back to when the Colts were in this division. What do all these teams outside of the Patriots have in common? Those lids. They're all white lids. You need the contrast. So I actually like the flying Elvis Patriot helmet. You need some contrast in this division. I'm a little underwhelmed by Pat Patriot, though. I understand your affinity, but that when you close your eyes and you think of the New England Patriots, for better or worse, Dave, you think of the Tom Brady uniforms.
- [27:24]
A
I, I get it. But I also think of Steve Grogan and his neck roll and, and champagne.
- [27:29]
D
To have to get over that, you're going to have to get over it. Too many white helmets in this division. Too many white helmets.
- [27:34]
A
Here's what, here's what I won't get over is that the team that is called the New England Patriots. You know where. If you're watching the American Revolution now with Ken Burns, it's marvelous stuff and it reminds you of the heritage the. These, the team brand is honoring. These, these brave Patriots who beat back the redcoats and now jump to the here and now. When the New England Patriots want to honor their very best for the hall of Fame ceremony, what do they give them? A red coat. What the hell are you doing?
- [28:10]
D
Thank you.
- [28:11]
A
The whole thing sideways. The whole thing's a mess. At number three for me, I go Dolphins. So we'll flip it there because of the beauty that they're hiding away in their closet inexplicably. Who's your number three?
- [28:23]
D
My number three is the New York jets lost their way. They had it right from the jump. I, I, I, I hate what has become of this. It is the weird Nike vacation of the jerseys where, hey, for this reimaging of the uniform, let's put the city on the chest. Because our market research says that's what fans like. I don't think it impacts sales whatsoever. This is a lazy design right now. They kind of try to correct it by making it even more throwbacky. I understand. We're sick of the, the white helmet thing in there. Change it up. That's always. This is a franchise, Dave. That kind of their thing is to reimagine their uniforms. But when your most successful look is that late 60s look of the New York jets and the time you started becoming relevant was when you tap back into it. I'm A big believer of when you close your eyes, what uniform do you picture? When you think of their best moments, what's the uniform that comes to mind? It's that Joan Willie Namath running off the Orange bowl field, holding up the number one. They got to be in that look forever.
- [29:29]
A
That. Well, that's exactly what I'm getting at. Or the opposite of that with Brady. They did their work in that era, but you can leave it to itself. But where the jets are concerned, the best it's ever been was way back in 1969. Better go back to that, because what you've been doing since ain't worked. It's obvious to me. And by the way, esthetically speaking, I. The green is okay, as you say, it's simplistic. It's a little lazy. And the white with the. With the cool green on the. On the arms, that was a better look anyway, no matter who was wearing it, Chad Pennington or otherwise. Who did that, by the way, is my number two. Even the green one in a. In a division that I think has mediocre options here for the most part. Who's your number two?
- [30:16]
D
Well, I think through process of elimination here, we already covered the Patriot. I could. I. I could skip to number one here. I think you and I did. Do you and I have the same number one?
- [30:26]
A
Do we?
- [30:26]
D
Nobody circles a wagons like them. It's the Buffalo Bills. I think any look that this team has had outside of the early 2000s, peerless price Buffalo Bills, where they tried to infuse it with some weird powder blue, and then they had the. The Travis Henry jersey where just the shoulders were navy. That was bad. But outside of that uni set, every single one of these uniform sets makes sense to me. I like the reintroduction of the red helmet. You and I have already gone back and forth on this. I understand they're a white helmet. If we get the rest of this division right with the helmets, we can keep the white helmet and just use the red as an alternate. I get you, but this is a classic uniform. A classic colorway. Can never go wrong with the Buffalo Bills.
- [31:10]
F
I went on a super, super deep dork dive last night on the Buffalo Bills, where actually went after.
- [31:17]
A
Or went.
- [31:18]
F
And then tracked down the illustrator of the charging buffalo on the side of the helmet. He was a former aerospace illustrator named Stevens. Right, Stevens, plural. He created that because his wife worked for NFL franchises and NF Network. And then he went on, because of the success of Buffalo Bills, to create two of the absolute worst logos One would be The San Francisco 49ers quote one day logo. That lasted six days. And they hated it so much because it kind of looked like a bad gas station sign. And then the one after that that he created was actually a prototype of the Flying Elvis. It was in 1979, and they released it to the fans in FoxPro. They hated it so much that they booed it out of existence.
- [32:02]
A
That's the bad backstory. And, you know, Kyle Shanahan has Trey Lance on his resume, and there's no washing that away, but otherwise, great success for him. Same goes for the Buffalo Bills. Those early odd Navy, and it wasn't powder blue. It was royal blue. And that's why they really sucked. And they look kind of like the Montreal Alouettes. And. And it just. It was a. And they were shiny, satin finish, all a mess. And as I've said before, and I'll say again, the reason this team's never won a Super bowl, maybe football, America's Team 2025, will wash off all the past here, but they do carry the ugly baggage of they get an AFL team, you understand, in Buffalo, named after the majestic beast that once roamed the plains. And then they say, what should we name our football team? Let's name it the Buffalo Bills, after Buffalo Bill Cody, who tried to kill all the Buffaloes. What the hell are you doing? This whole division is weird. I don't care for any of it, but Mike Ryan, I care for you. And I thought this was a dynamite appearance from you. Once again, any final fashion thoughts? You want to get out before you head off to Pittsburgh Penn?
- [33:07]
D
Yes, absolutely. My final fashion thought is that head to head matchups in college football should matter as the ultimate tiebreaker. And the Miami Hurricanes should be in the playoff. You can believe that Notre Dame deserves to be in the playoffs. I won't disagree with you, but if they're in the playoffs, so are the Miami Hurricanes.
- [33:22]
A
Well, that's fine. And I do have to. This maybe stands as a hot take. I like Notre Dame's home getups where they went Navy, and when it's special, they go Kelly green. The road uniforms are nothing. They're. They're not impressive. Maybe they're the victim of everybody copycatting their look at the mid 20th century, but army and Navy kind of wear the same uniforms, and they've always worn it. Forgettable stuff for an iconic program. I'm with you. Good luck to the U. I hope they lose in Pittsburgh, though.
- [33:52]
D
I know you do. Go, Canes.
- [34:00]
A
All right. Now it's time for the pick six presented by DraftKings. DraftKings. The Crown is yours. All right, no more jive. Mike and Gino. Gino and Mike Fuentes. It's time to win the million dollars. The time for talk is over, the time for action and winning. And I'm going to start with my three touchdown scores. Guys who will find the end zone with their legs or with their hands. I don't know why I said it that way. They're going to catch or run a ball into the end zone. Starting off with the premier touchdown maker in 2025, Jameer Gibbs. Derrick Henry is on a nice little roll himself. He's going to find the end zone at least once and so too will Jalen. Hurts a great touchdown maker with the help of somebody pushing on his bum from behind. Then I have a trio of guys who are going to throw at least two touchdown passes. I'm going fun here. Dak Prescott against the Eagles. He's rolling with Pickens and cd. Then Kirk Cousins, he's going to throw a couple for. He's got a good matchup to do that. And lastly, Shedor Sanders, two touchdown passes. It's the Raiders after all. He might also throw four or five interceptions, but that's not what we're talking about here. Mike and Gino, how say you?
- [35:11]
B
There's some spicy stuff here with the quarterbacks.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah, I thought so. I thought that would be fun.
- [35:14]
B
Cousins and should do it. All right. I'm going to take Shadow out. Just that's. That's the first order of business there and then I'll do okay. I mean, but I mean, I have to take one out, right?
- [35:22]
C
We're trying to win $1 million.
- [35:23]
B
Yeah.
- [35:23]
C
Like, yeah.
- [35:24]
B
Okay, so then I'm going to go Travion Henderson just because he's been on fire lately and he's got. He's in Cincinnati and Cincinnati is the worst run defense in the league. So that's going to be my pick, right?
- [35:33]
A
Yeah, I will be perfect.
- [35:35]
C
Grabbing Kyron Williams against Tampa Bay Buccaneers because that defense is not that great. I will also be removing Shador Sanders because I know we're all really low on the Las Vegas defense because they just got absolutely dominated by the Cowboys. Cowboys offense a little bit better than Shador Sanders and the Cleveland Browns, I would say. So that's my pick. Shador out Kyren. And enjoy your money.
- [35:55]
A
Nah, I hear your noise and I'll make both of those changes. But for the record, that also happened because the Raiders defense sucks all right, I hope your appetite is now whet because it's time to make the Week 12 picks. Okay, here's a fella I was just talking with earlier this week on the great podcast Heed the Call with the heroes, Han, Zeus and Sesler. He's a regular on that show. You also get his great pages on Sports Illustrated. This guy, I, you know, I like the word thoughtful and you know, he's thoughtful in this way, in both ways that you can use the word he. The word thoughtful can be an intellectual matter, but can also be considerate. And he is both of those things. He is a mensch. He is. Connor, or what's happening, fella?
- [36:45]
G
Hey, how we doing?
- [36:47]
A
I'm doing just fine. Better for having drafted the people in football who we'd most like to share the Thanksgiving table with. That was a good conversation. I, you know, I took Jalen Ramsey, but you didn't want him there because of the spit. I don't want to get into the spit thing. But, But Connor, you think that suspensions for spit go too far, right?
- [37:11]
G
I have now been pigeonholed as the guy who is okay with being spat on. And I want to just clarify that. So I'm glad that I'm here. No, I don't like being spat on. I'm used to being spat on. I have a nine month old at home and a five year old boy like that is the window of being spat on in life. And so I guess I'm not as alarmed when that would happen to me, purposeful or otherwise, versus like Miles Garrett taking my helmet off and trying to decapitate me. And so I just think that we're kind of in a weird lane of penalties in the NFL where like a one game suspension for punching a bellhop in the face, for example, which an Eagles player that happened to in 2018, and then a one game suspension for spitting on someone. Like one thing can kill you and the other just, you just have to do laundry. And so I guess I just don't understand.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah. Keeping the penalties, even Steven, and the severity of the. Maybe we have lost our way as far as that goes. A little bit. I hear your noise on that. I've told the story before, but one time I was in Chicago traffic and a guy like, I didn't cut him off, but he thought I did and we were in standstill traffic and he got. I looked in my rearview mirror to see if he was still angry and I realized I, oh, he's left his car seat. Which I knew meant, oh, he's on his way to me. So I went to lock the door, but it was too late. He opened my car door and he gave me one of these. He spit. But then he made the noise. Spit. And I felt the wind, but he didn't actually spit. And that left me in a tough spot. Like, do I. Am I supposed to get out of the car now? Because if you spit on me now, I got to get out and take my beating and be left on the side of the road bloodied, but at least I'll have my dignity. But the spit left me in a. In a weird spot there. Anyway, we'll talk about that at a later date.
- [38:58]
G
We should. Yeah, I want to dig into this.
- [39:00]
A
Okay, let's start the countdown here. The most consequential games and who's going to win them. At number five, man, all of a sudden, this one didn't seem like it had any chance of being intriguing, but here we are. It's the Philadelphia Eagles at the Dallas Cowboys. The home team is plus three. Total is 47 and a half. How do you see this one playing out?
- [39:20]
G
Well, remember in week one, the Cowboys actually had one of the best run defenses by metric against the Eagles. And I think if you took out all the Jalen Hurts runs, the Eagles were averaging something like 1.9 yards of carry. And then the Cowboys, you could easily make the argument that this is the most improved defensive line in football since that point. And so this is really going to be a challenge on the plate of Kevin Petullo. How are you going to stretch it vertically when everybody's been begging you to do it every single week? And are you going to remain sort of fiercely loyal to this run game? When I think, I mean, Quinn and Williams looked awesome last week. He was a madman. Beat a bunch of double teams. So I really like Dallas keeping this close. And this is an offense with week in, week out, 40 point potential. So I picked Dallas this week. I like the Cowboys in this one.
- [40:10]
A
You know how this goes, that narratives get on track and then the train never stops. But I don't. Have people really been talking about the fact that maybe Jerry Jones was right to not sign Micah Parsons? How say you? I mean, you know, quit. I don't. He's not quitting. Williams isn't as dynamic, of course, but, you know, they've kind of landed clean on the other side here with a chance if they beat the Eagles. Now we're really talking about them going into Thanksgiving against the Chiefs.
- [40:40]
G
Landing clean on the other side is the Right, Way to put it. It's like, remember in Toy Story when Buzz tries to prove that he can fly and he bounces off a bunch of shit and then lands. And everyone's like, oh my God, he can. You know, it's sort of like that's what happened with the Cowboys trade. Because at first, remember, it was this long game where it's like we're planning on building a roster for the long term. And then like all these flips and gymnastics and then this old man comes down and is like, surprise, I got two 30 year old players in a first round pick. And everyone's like, yeah, he won the trade. And it's like, did he or did he just get a little bit drunk in between and kind of make it work out somehow? I, I would respect the Cowboys a lot more if they, they surrendered 2027 equity. I think if they ended up with 2027 equity, that's the draft that everyone's looking at. That's going to be like the Jim Kelly, you know, Dan Marino draft, right? And he's not really well positioned there. And so for me, it's like you, you're, there's no plan here, but you did come away with two nice players that are maybe going to marginally upgrade your roster over the next two years. So whatever. If you want to say you want.
- [41:43]
A
It, you want it, I will say, here's what I will say. The thing that is ironic, given if you looked at this a month ago, the position advantage or the matchup that is fascinating, you might go Cowboys defensive front against the Eagles offensive line minus Lane Johnson. I'm going to take the Cowboys because Dak is having a great year with CD and George Pickens out on the field. The Steelers didn't need George Pickens. Let's move on. I'm going to take Dallas. Like I said, at number four, Minnesota and Green Bay packers giving six and a half, 41 and a half. Packers really need it, but it's a, it's as close to a must win as you can get for the Vikings. I agree.
- [42:23]
G
And I like Minnesota in this one too, because when they know that you're compromised on the running game front, or at least they have a reason to believe that you are. And Green Bay still hasn't solved the loss of 12 personnel. I mean, they're down a tight end, they're experimenting with a lot of different things. Christian Watson kind of bailed them out with a couple of big acrobatic catches. But that's not a game plan that's not something that you, you work on during the week and you're like, okay, great, we're going to have a bunch of these on Sunday. The Vikings are excellent when you're wounded on that front, pinning you deep and forcing your running backs to stay in on protection, beating the hell out of you on that front, I think they're going to do that again. They're going to keep the score really low and J.J. mcCarthy's fine unscripted drives. So if they can keep it under 17 points, I think the Vikings win this one.
- [43:08]
A
I don't declare him a bus just yet. And I am going to stand by my packers for one more game. As I said earlier, I'm going to take them to win this game and cover. If they don't, they're out as my Super Bowl 60 pick. Last chance for you guys. No, no. That the pressure is on. Buccaneers, rams, rams laying six and a half. 49 and a half is the total. How say you, Connor, or I love.
- [43:33]
G
The Rams in this one because I just think that there's no team in the NFL that can do what they do at this point. They are, you know, my Transformer knowledge is a little bit dated, but whatever the coolest Transformer was when we were kids, that is it, right? They can pass out of the heaviest formation in football and then run out of the lightest formation in football and they're equally proficient at doing both of those things. And as good of a coordinator as Todd Bowles is, I don't know how you game plan around that and I'm eager to see him try. So if anyone can do it, it's him, but I don't think he will.
- [44:04]
A
Yeah, the Bucks have come back down to earth. People were so busy talking them into being a Super bowl contender that they've kind of ignored the reality of that team of late. Mike Fuentes, who is the best Transformer?
- [44:16]
C
Hmm, it depends. If you're like a, you know, everybody loves a bad guy, so you probably say Megatron. Megatron, right. Megatron is probably the coolest sounding one. Not Calvin Johnson, obviously. The comic book character.
- [44:26]
D
Megatron.
- [44:27]
C
Starscream. Starscream is a cool name, but the character was kind of kind of beefy with Megatron all time. Optim prime, obviously a good guy. Bumblebee has probably risen through the ranks for kids because Bumblebee had his own movie with Ms. Josh Allen. She was in it.
- [44:42]
A
Mrs. That's like making movies out of Hawkeye. Who cares? He's not power, but he's still got his own movie. An 18 wheeler against. Against a fighter jet.
- [44:54]
C
But that was always the problem. That was, that was always the problem with the Transformers. They were like everyday stuff that no one cared about. Of course. Well, what the. The other thing is like an Apache death helicopter, right? Oh, that's cool. Megatron. Megatron turned to the gun. That was kind of weird.
- [45:06]
F
You're forgetting, you're forgetting Grimlock, though, like a flying Tyrannosaurus Rex.
- [45:11]
C
Now you're like into like the dinosaurs, like the dinosaur one and all this crazy stuff. Talking about the OGs.
- [45:17]
F
But that's, that's the correct answer.
- [45:20]
C
You're getting too far into the lore. You're getting too. Yeah, you're like, you're like coming in. This is like you bringing Canadian football into this. Like nobody cares. Like, no, like, listen.
- [45:29]
F
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:30]
A
Captain Alouette. Yeah, yeah, bring it. Let me tell you something. Both of these teams at number two better not lose this game or they're in some real peril. Colts, Chiefs, home team laying three and a half total. 50 and a half. Conor, or how say you?
- [45:43]
G
Oh, I mean, I think this is probably here. Here's how I'm going to say this. This is the last time that I picked the Chiefs because I feel like I have to, right? And then after this, if they get blown out by the Colts, I'm going to abandon that because I was way too late on the Patriots bandwagon, where even that last year where Bill Belichick had, like, Joe Judges, his offensive coordinator, I picked him to win the AFC east. And I got made fun of on like every morning show, sports morning show in America. And they were right. The team finished with like four wins. But in my mind, I kept thinking I have to pick them because of the. The New England Patriots. This is my last game doing this with the Chiefs, like, I declare it, and if they lose, I'm completely done. I'm demystified. They're just like every other team. And, and I'm. And I'm done with it.
- [46:26]
A
All right. I mean, we did talk about that. Maybe the Eagles just sort of melted the, the mystique in that super bowl and they're just not the same ever since. Okay, number one, it's the Pittsburgh Steelers at the Chicago Bears. Somebody told me that the Bears, not that this has any relevance in 2025, but in Soldier Field are 11 and one against the Steelers. Sheesh. That's weird. Bears laying two and a half. 45 and a half is your total Connor or choose.
- [47:00]
G
Rogers or no Rogers I think the Bears win by at least two touchdowns. I, I think they're that good. Caleb Williams has been so good at evading sacks. And I know that you're saying, well, we got T.J. watt, we got all these guys and, and they've done a great job.
- [47:15]
A
I didn't say that you were saying Yin's is putting words in my mouth, dude.
- [47:21]
G
But I think Pittsburgh's been equally as good now that they can play too high safety at using some of the interior backers to generate pressure. But Caleb Williams negates that to a degree and he's not like other quarterbacks who aren't going to be as slow footed, as prone to some of that pressure maybe like Daniel Jones was a couple of weeks ago. So I like Chicago in this one. I like them on both phases of the ball in this game. And I think this is a Ben Johnson coming out party. I think he'll have cool plays and I think we're going to leave this one talking about like, wow, what's Pittsburgh going to do after this?
- [47:51]
A
Well, I agree with that. And the other thing I think we'll take away from it is, I mean, yeah, really it may end up meaning the demise of Mike Tomlin because the they have four heavyweights still upcoming. They really might finish with a losing record. But Ben Johnson proving what I said a couple of years ago and keep saying maybe the play caller is more important than the guy at the trigger at this point. There are a number of examples of that that kind of prove that there is some smoke to that, to that notion there. Connor Orr, we appreciate you making the time, especially with the little ones under your roof there. You're the tops, man. You make the show better for us.
- [48:29]
G
You're the best. Thanks for having me on.
- [48:31]
A
There he goes, Connor. Or read his pages on Sports Illustrated, hear his words on Heed the Call and the Sports Illustrated podcast that he does both. Great. There he goes. Here we go, out the door. I hope you're now feeling better and right to make the right picks for NFL Week 12. We'll be back on the other side of it to help try and make sense of it for you. Until then, thanks so much. My fellow football Americans. It's been a thin slice of heaven.
- [49:14]
D
Sa.