Hour 1: Chuck Challenges Dan (feat. Chuck Klosterman)

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz — Hour 1: Chuck Challenges Dan (Feat. Chuck Klosterman)
Date: February 10, 2026
Guests: Chuck Klosterman (author of "Football")
Location: Elser Hotel, Downtown Miami

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Episode Overview

This episode features renowned cultural critic and author Chuck Klosterman joining Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, and the crew to discuss his new book, "Football", and the cultural, social, and philosophical significance of the sport in America. Through a playful game of "What the Chuck", Klosterman and the hosts explore the future of football, the politics of Super Bowl halftime shows, instant replay’s impact on sports, and why football commands such a central role in American society. The discussion also branches into broader questions about writing, media, and authenticity, especially in music and sports entertainment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Origins & Klosterman’s Sport of Choice

[00:54–01:59]

• Dan introduces Chuck Klosterman, praising his writing on rock music, pop culture, and society.
• The "What the Chuck" game leads Chuck to reveal the original title of his book was “Dangerous but Worth the Risk” (a Ratt song reference) before settling on "Football."
  Klosterman (01:34): "The very first one was Dangerous but Worth the Risk... Then I went with Football, had a bunch of subtitles, and then just ignored all the subtitles."
• On his personal sports preference, Chuck admits a deep love for both basketball and football but says, culturally, football is far more significant in the U.S.

2. Super Bowl Halftime Show, Bad Bunny & the Culture Wars

[02:32–05:56]

• Chuck skipped the halftime show to walk his dog but observed the cultural reaction—especially to it being in Spanish.
• He points out the recurring and misguided expectation that the show reflects the presumed demographics of football fans: Klosterman (03:16): "They're trying to find something that almost counter programs the audience for the game. So it made a ton of sense to have him do this." (03:58): "It is idiotic that people are upset that they had a Spanish-speaking person perform at the halftime show... it's absurd that there's all these Bunny defenders now who are clearly having this reaction for political reasons only."
• He critiques both the backlash and performative support, suggesting much of the outrage/support isn't about Bad Bunny's music at all but larger identity politics.

3. Football as a Conservatively Coded Institution

[04:50–06:35]

• Dan references Klosterman’s writing on football’s innate conservatism.
• Chuck elaborates, noting the NFL’s careful management of potential “conflict” with artists like Green Day and Bad Bunny, ensuring performances don’t become overtly political or controversial.
• Discussion on Green Day’s muted Super Bowl performance, with panelists debating whether punk bands must always be outspoken.

4. The Future and “Doom” of Football

[08:06–10:57]

• Mike Ryan asks: Who would be the ideal Super Bowl halftime artist? And why does Klosterman think football is "doomed"?
• Chuck proposes Taylor Swift as the only true remaining monoculture force outside football.
• On football’s future, he predicts (in the book and here) that, two generations from now, a financial reckoning will shrink football’s centrality.
  Klosterman (08:19): "What I see happening is that there’s going to be sort of a financial catastrophe... in about 2060 or 2070... where the amount of money required to show these things at its current rate becomes impossible." (10:57): "As the world changes, the large objects are less flexible... The bigger an institution is, the less likely or the less able it is to change with how society shifts."
• Dan jokes Chuck’s theory is “authorship of the highest order”—making a prediction far enough into the future to never be proven wrong.

5. Writing, Media, and the Changing Landscape of Journalism

[15:56–17:57]

• Dan asks how it feels to be better known as a "thinker" than a writer, in the era of podcasts and diminished literary prestige.
• Chuck laments that thanks to podcasts, “everybody has heard my voice now,” which shapes how people read his books.
• Discusses the decline and confusion at institutions like the Washington Post, attributing its struggles not just to profit but to a larger shift in cultural value and business expectations.

6. Instant Replay and the "Absurdity" of Precision in Sports

[19:09–23:32]

• Dan challenges Chuck on being "against instant replay."
• Chuck's critique: Sports are simulations already—demanding “indisputable visual evidence” to resolve minor in-game questions is excessive and undermines the human element. Klosterman (19:31): "The amount of evidence we need [for instant replay] is greater than the amount of evidence we need to give a guy the electric chair."
• Stugotz and Mike Ryan agree that instant replay, especially in soccer and basketball, has made the watching experience worse, robbing moments of spontaneous celebration/rage.
• Chuck argues that human error by officials is part of sports' narrative and history.

7. Weather Games & Authenticity in Football

[23:32–26:00]

• The panel discusses weather's impact on NFL games, especially the most recent AFC Championship.
• Klosterman sees weather as integral to football's uniqueness, unlike other sports. Klosterman (23:41): "Football is the only sport where natural elements are assumed to be part of what you’re going to experience if the game is outside."
• He criticizes the move toward domes and climate control as an attempt to erase unpredictability and authenticity.

8. Football on TV vs. In Person; The Rise of TV Football

[26:00–28:07]

• Mike Ryan asks: Why is football better on TV than in person?
• Klosterman asserts the TV broadcast has shaped how we collectively imagine the sport—it’s the only sport always better mediated rather than live. Klosterman (26:11): "Football is a mediated event, even when there is no media involved." (27:06): "Football is made for television. And the reason it’s so dominant in this country is completely married to that."

9. College Football vs. Pro Football, Tribalism, and Regional Identity

[28:07–29:44]

• Chuck prefers college football, praising its tribal/regional character, historical context, and diversity of playing styles.
• He finds the NFL too homogenized, with college football retaining more "personality" and connection to fans’ identities.

10. Is Football Bad for Society?

[30:43–33:39]

• Chuck challenges Dan to define whether he’s now “anti-football” or just ambivalent.
• Dan expresses a wish for society to view players as people, but enjoys the sport. He admits his opinion has shifted with the rise of analytics and concern for metrics accuracy.
• Chuck argues that football is successful because it subordinates individuality in favor of control, and that efforts to perfectly “measure” the sport miss its essence.

11. The Allure of Unpredictability

[33:39–34:53]

• Dan wants accurate measurement, dislikes weather derailing "fair" comparisons.
• Chuck counters that the randomness, adversity, and unpredictability are what make sports compelling. Klosterman (34:10): "...intellectual comfort that your understanding of the thing is reflected most accurately. I don't know if that’s... why football is interesting..."

12. Super Bowl Halftime, Punk Rock, and Corporate Control

[39:08–43:23]

• The crew debates expectations of Green Day (or any punk band) on a corporate stage like the Super Bowl.
• The NFL, they observe, enforces strict control even for halftime performers—artful rebellion is only allowed if it doesn’t disrupt the spectacle.
• Discussion of Bad Bunny’s and Green Day’s choices not to politicize their performances, with consensus that true punk or political art is incompatible with the NFL’s rules.
• Dan: "If you want to play in their halftime show, it is such a privilege... you will do it for free and you will shut up."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the inevitable cultural, not purely athletic, role of the Super Bowl halftime:

  “They're trying to find something that almost counter programs the audience for the game. So it made a ton of sense...”
  — Chuck Klosterman, 03:16

• On instant replay and the illusion of fairness:

  “The amount of evidence we need [for a football call] is greater than the amount of evidence we need to give a guy the electric chair.”
  — Chuck Klosterman, 19:31

• On why football is “doomed” long-term:

  “What I see happening is that there’s going to be sort of a financial catastrophe... the amount of money required... becomes impossible. And there’s a work shutdown... two generations, I don’t know if that’s going to be the case because I think it’s already becoming this thing where there’s a bifurcation between the kind of person who plays and lives football, and the kind of person who just watches it as an entertaining distraction.”
  — Chuck Klosterman, 08:19

• On TV’s role in football’s dominance:

  “Football is made for television. And the reason it’s so dominant in this country is completely married to that.”
  — Chuck Klosterman, 27:06

• On weather games:

  “Football is the only sport where natural elements are assumed to be part of what you’re going to experience if the game is outside.”
  — Chuck Klosterman, 23:41

• On NFL halftime performance constraints:

  “If you want to play in their halftime show, it is such a privilege... you will do it for free and you will shut up.”
  — Dan Le Batard, 39:55

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:22 — “What the Chuck” Book Title Game
• 02:32 — Super Bowl Halftime Show/Bad Bunny reaction
• 04:50 — Football as a conservative-coded institution
• 08:19 — Football's “doom” prediction and future
• 15:56 — State of journalism, decline of the Washington Post
• 19:09 — Debate on instant replay and sports authenticity
• 23:41 — Impact and value of weather in NFL
• 26:11 — Why football is better on television
• 28:07 — College football’s “tribal” advantage
• 30:43 — Is Dan anti-football?
• 39:08 — Green Day, punk, and the NFL’s corporate control of halftime shows

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Tone & Style

The episode features the signature Le Batard Show blend: irreverent, sharp, funny, and intellectually curious. Chuck Klosterman brings a probing, slightly contrarian but genial analytical voice. Banter is brisk; the hosts and guest challenge one another, seamlessly shifting between deep philosophical threads and light, comedic asides.

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For Listeners Seeking Takeaways

• Football’s uniquely American position is examined as cultural event, not just a sport, with critical attention to its future, authenticity, and ability to adapt (or not).
• Instant replay and the digitization of sports is both praised for accuracy and criticized for eroding sports’s essence.
• Super Bowl performances are revealed as cultural mirror—a flashpoint where authenticity and spectacle clash under NFL’s iron control.
• Weather and unpredictability are defended as core to sport’s narrative power.
• The future—for football, journalism, and even punk rock—is cast in a critical light, with nostalgia for what may soon be lost.

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Episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of sports, culture, and media—or for those who want to understand why football matters so much to the American psyche (and why that might not always be the case).

Transcript

[Chuck Klosterman]

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[Dan Le Batard]

I've admired this guy's work for a long time. He writes exceptionally well about rock music, pop culture, but really the state of society. Zaz said he's read Klosterman books.

[Zaz]

Yeah, and I don't read well.

[Dan Le Batard]

I know that's that was surprising to me. The highest honor I've seen making the rounds here, selling the book the Call. It's called Football, so that should sell. Of course that's going to be New York Times bestseller. Just put football on anything and it'll sell. But if this guy's writing it, it'll also sell. And I have not read the entirety of the book. But I want to play a game with you to make this a little different, Chuck, because I know you're getting asked some of the same questions. So. Okay, do you mind if we play a game of what the Chuck?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, let's see what happens.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right. We'll start with an easy one. Football wasn't the original title of your book what the Chuck?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Uh, was it true or false or. You asked me what the original title was.

[Stugats]

Just what the Chuck.

[Chuck Klosterman]

We could have been better at explaining, I think the initial title, the very first one, was Dangerous but Worth the Risk, which is also the title of a rat song. But yeah, I think that was the initial. Then I went through a few iterations, then I went with Football, had a bunch of subtitles, and then just ignored all the subtitles.

[Dan Le Batard]

So you, you basketball's your sport though, right? What the Chuck?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, I love basketball. I love football. I was a better basketball player. I guess I feel like in a sense that it is probably a pure game in a vacuum. But if you're going to write a book about a sport in the United States, it's Insane to write about anything except football. I mean, it is so much more significant not just than it's sort of rival sports, but almost of all its rival sports combined, that they're, you know, if you're looking at things culturally, there's not really any question what.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're right about the reaction to the halftime show. What the. Chuck?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, you know, I knew you were going to ask me about that because I don't spend a hot topic on your show. I'm going to just be honest with you. I have a very athletic dog and my dog needs to get walked twice a day for sure. So when There was like 10 seconds left in the first half, I immediately walked the dog. Okay, so I'm walking through the neighborhood, though, and I can see into the, you know, into the. Through the windows of people house of people's houses. Everybody was watching it. It seemed like a highly produced show. I got back, my wife said it was great. And then I just heard people talking about it NonStop now for two days.

[Dan Le Batard]

So you didn't see it, but you're, you're a keen observer on what's going on in society. The reaction to it being in Spanish. What the. Chuck.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Somewhat unsurprising. You know, I knew of course, that this was going to cause issues, particularly if the game was not very entertaining and didn't give something else, some people, something else to talk about. You know, every, every year the same thing happens. They announce who's going to play the super bowl halftime show. And there's all these people who say, like, why isn't it Metallica? Like, why isn't it the Black Keys? They somehow seem to work from this position that the halftime show is supposed to sort of fit in with who they imagine the demographic or the core demographic for the super bowl is, when, of course, it's the exact opposite. Like, they're. They're trying to find something that almost counter programs the audience for the game. So it made a ton of sense to have him do this. People are going to be unhappy because they, you know, they. He's not singing in English. What is hilarious to me is that one, both the people who seem to hate this show and the people who seem to love this show are almost tacitly admitting they have no experience with Bad Bunny prior to this, but they've just made this decision of how they're going to feel about it. So, like, I think it's idiotic that people are upset that they had a Spanish speaking person perform at the halftime show. I also think it is Absurd that there's all these Bunny defenders now who are clearly having this reaction for political reasons only. It has nothing to do with the content. I mean, it has something to do with the content because they see the content as political. But if there, if the situation was different, most of the people reacting to this would have no response to his music.

[Dan Le Batard]

But you also write, right, that there's a universal understanding that football is fundamentally conservatively coded, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Absolutely, absolutely. So when you put, you know, and what is interesting about the NFL is that I think one of your guys in the studio just mentioned this. They put Bad Bunny on at halftime. They have Green Day play before the show. Like, this band is very punk band, very outspoken, was against, you know, the first Bush and now sort of transferred the second Bush and now kind of transferred this toward Trump. They put them out there, and people watch these things, I think, with the expectation that there's going to be real conflict, that these artists are going to say something that's going to be shocking, that's going to, you know, and then they just perform, and then everybody kind of has to triangulate a meaning from it. I mean, I. I would be very curious to. To the conversations that, like, Bed Bunny or Green Day has with the NFL before these performances. And, and like, what. How they sort of ensure that what they're going to get is just a performance. Like, I assume that must happen. Maybe it doesn't.

[Dan Le Batard]

Maybe I'm wrong. Kendrick Lamar, it seemed like I wouldn't not have him doing pedophilia stuff during his performance if there was going to be legislation on the freedom of the expression. Zaz, what did you think of Green Day? What did you think of the performance?

[Zaz]

Yeah, I mean, Chuck, like, Green Day, like you said, they're a punk rock band who's always been very outspoken, and even till today, like, they still tour and they're super outspoken about world events. And I thought it was super lame. You're probably right. I'm sure there are mandates from the league, what to say, what not to say. And they clearly totally gave in to those mandates and they didn't say anything on the biggest stage in the world. And I found that pretty off putting from them.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, my question for you, though, would be, why do you want that? I mean, I'm not trying to be adversarial here. I'm like, why do you want Green Day to do that? Why do you want them to create a situation where the conversation we're having about Bed Bunny or any of these things is amplified by a level of 10. Because then there's someone who can actually be pointed to as they said this, like, what, what, what is your reason for wanting that?

[Zaz]

I would just want them to be them. And on that stage they decided to veer off the course of what makes them them.

[Dan Le Batard]

They are punk, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, well, sure, but what you're saying, if. That. If being them necessitates them being political at all times, I think that's sort of a misreading of Green Day. I mean, Green Day has political ideals, but if you go to a typical Green Day show, it's not going to be wall to wall ideology. They're mostly.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's not Rage against the Machine.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's not even that. I mean, even that. If you go to a Rage against the Machine, you know, you know, what Tom Morello believes or whatever, it probably will be directed at certain times throughout the performance. This is like when you look at Green Day's performance. What was also interesting about it is they actually sort of presented themselves slightly more conservatively or conventionally than usual. I mean, his Billy Joel's hair was a normal color. He was dressed in a black leather jacket, the most kind of conventional rock outfit possible. So I'm not. I mean, I think that they may have just wanted to play the Super Bowl. Like that was their thing. They didn't see this as a way to sort of forward an idea. It's like, this would be a great opportunity.

[Mike Ryan]

Chuck, two quick questions. Number one, who do you think would be a great halftime show for the Super Bowl? Metallica to set up? It could be. It could be. And number two, why do you think football is doomed?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, well, the second question is a chunk of this book that, you know, 10,000 words. People often want me to describe it in two sentences. And if I could, I probably wouldn't have needed to write a book to answer your first question though, like, who would be the ideal artist for the halftime show? Well, I mean, if football is sort of the last vestige of the monoculture, the only other aspect of that would be Taylor Swift. She's the only other part of the monoculture that still exists. I suppose the marriage of those two things would be perceived as the ultimate spectacle that, you know, it would be combining the two things in America that seem to be meaningful to people, even if they don't want them to be that these kind of like these entities that are almost imposed upon them. The whole thing about football being doomed, I'm talking two generations from now. And of course people are shocked by this Especially if all they hear is that idea. Because it seems so counterintuitive. I mean, right now it seems more likely that football would swallow up all the other sports. But what I see happening is that there's going to be sort of a financial catastrophe on the horizon. That football can only expand, the revenue can only go up. The NFL does not work from a position where sort of just like static neutral neutrality can work. It's always got to get bigger. And that requires everything around it to increase in the same way. The amount that they can raise from advertising, the amount that platforms and networks are willing to pay. And I see that hitting a point probably in about 2060 or 2070 or something like that, where the amount of money required to sort of show these things at its current rate becomes impossible. And there's a work shutdown, there's either a lockout or there's this major strike. And what will be different in these two generations removed is that I think that the consumer will have less of a personal relationship to football than they do now. It would happen now if there was a work shutdown now, people would lose their mind. They'd be like, what am I going to gamble on? Like, how am I going to build my weekend around you? There's no Saturday, no football on Sunday. There's no college football somehow disappeared. There was nothing on Saturday. But in two generations, I don't know if that's going to be the case because I think it's already becoming this thing where there's been this bifurcation between the kind of person who plays and lives football and the kind of person who just watches it as sort of an entertaining distraction.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is a heady play by Klosterman, a veteran of the industry here, where he predicts something that won't happen within his lifetime.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So Exactly.

[Dan Le Batard]

Never be proven wrong. And he's not actually saying that football is going to fail. He's just going to say it's going to get so big that America's not going to be equipped in its economy to be able to protect how big it gets. Like, this is. This is authorship of the highest order, sir.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it also seems like a non controversial thing to say, like in 50 years the world will be different. But this just illustrates how central football is to people's sort of lives and consciousness. That just saying that in perhaps 50 years this thing that's now the center of the culture will have receded to the perimeter. People are like, impossible. That can't be. You're an idiot. You know, it's like it's been. And some of this is my own fault, I mean, because I mentioned it early in the book and then it's kind of at the end of the book. So I think for a lot of people who consume this, they think, well, that must be what the book is about. And it's just really a sliver of it. I mean, my book is about football sort of in the largest possible sort of lens across this entire spectrum of ideas. But one of those ideas is sort of its future. And I do think like all things that large, like all hyper objects, it is doomed because as the world changes, the large objects are less flexible than the small ones. The bigger an institution is, the less likely or the less able it is to sort of change or with how society shifts.

[Jeremy]

You know, people keep asking me about my 2026 resolutions and yeah, I got the usual stuff. You know, watch more games, complain about the power play, and pretend like my team's actually going to stay healthy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ha ha.

[Jeremy]

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[Stugats]

Howdy folks. Mike Ryan here. Quick break to talk to you about one of our show's longest, most tenured and greatest partners, Miller Lite. I love this product because so many moments were made legendary by having Miller Lite there. And it's not just the good times. Sometimes you and your pals are sad because a game didn't go your way and you take a sip of Miller Lite and you still recognize. Darn, this tastes good. And I made the right call.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And that.

[Stugats]

That sound of cracking open that beautiful white can, it does make me feel better. Thank you. Miller Lite. So many legendary moments. Start with a Miller Lite. Miller Lite just fits pretty much any occasion. Clean finish, refreshing, brewed for taste with simple ingredients like malted barley. And at 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces, it never weighs you down. It's the taste that beer lovers have trusted for over 50 years. The original light beer since 1975 and still iconic today. Legendary moments start with Miller Lite. Great taste. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

[Tony]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Dan LeBatard what is the worst part of the life?

[Stugats]

Stugats.

[Mike Ryan]

The worst part of the life of what?

[Chuck Klosterman]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Dan Le Batard]

He's a new instant New York Times bestseller as soon as his book arrives. His book just arrived and it's already a New York Times bestseller. It's called called Football. It is available now and I urge you to read it because he really is an exceptional author. I heard you say on Pablo Torre finds out the other day that Bill Simmons did real great wonders for your career in general, but the writing somehow got swallowed. People think of you as a thinker and more than a writer. It must crush you to see what's happening at the Washington Post and elsewhere where. What's happening to writing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, the thing that I was saying about Simmons is that, of course, it's been. It's been great for my career. When I do a podcast with Simmons, it gets as much attention as when I put a book out. But the thing that I don't love is that everybody has heard my voice now, and let's face it, I have kind of an annoying voice. Some people hear my voice and they just hate it. Right? They just hate it. So I know now when people read my books, very often, they're hearing my voice. In the past, what they would have done is imagine the best version of their own voice if they like the book. Now, they, you know, I'm sort of forced, basically, to inflict myself on people, so they hear it back. What's happening at the Washington Post now? It's just. It's confusing in a lot of ways, because certainly someone like Jeff Bezos is not in a position where he looks at the Washington Post and he's like, it's got to make money for me to survive. Like, you know, that's not what is happening there. It's almost as though that he has this idea of how a business he operates has to. Has to work. Like, there's no way that he's going to have a business that's not competitive with, you know, any of his rivals, and that sort of seems to be doing meaningful work. I mean, certainly the content of the Washington Post has not been as great over the last two years as it was a few years ago. There was a period very recently when I really felt the Post was better than the New York Times by quite a bit. Now, that doesn't seem to be the case now. And now, certainly, it's kind of falling apart. It's a.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's a. It's very weird, too, because, like, as a sports reader, as someone who likes sports writing, I mean, that's. That was really sort of the cornerstone of that. You know, it's like investigative political reporting and sports journalism seem to be the two things I associate with the Washington Post. So, I mean, it is. It's odd, but what can you do? I mean, it's also not surprising. I would doubt you'd be surprised by that. Chuck, what's going on with this fire behind you? It's making me nervous. There's boxes right near it. Is this. Is it a depth, percept thing, or is there a fire hat on you? Okay, well, no, here's the deal. So this is like a little log cabin that came with my house. It was in the backyard. I don't know what it was for. I think the former residents maybe used it as, like, a playhouse. They must, you know. But it had an actual fireplace in there. So this is where I built my office in. But I didn't want to have to start a fire every time I came out here. So that's an electronic fireplace.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's like. That heats the room, but it's not actually a fire. There is no risk.

[Dan Le Batard]

You had us fooled, though. I think we would have thought. All of us would have thought that was real and that you were going for a vibe there, not just warmth, but you were trying to give off. Author. Author writing and, you know, writing in cold weather. Real fire.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, did you like to write by a fireplace when you were.

[Dan Le Batard]

I live in. My younger man. I live in a fireplace. The entire city I live in is a fireplace. But it fooled me. I was fooled. I thought that that was real fire behind you. You're against instant rep. I am.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know I'm the last person that way, but I am, yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

Why?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I just.

[Zaz]

Okay.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I hate using the same joke over and over again, but it is the best illustration of this instant replay for officiating really sort of, to me, forces me to confront the sometimes problematic absurdity of these sports. They're like, you know, I'm already watching adults making all this money play a simulation of reality. For all you know, there's all this kind of fakeness around it. Then something happens in the game. And in order to get an objective answer to say, is it third and short, or is that a first down? The amount of evidence we need is greater than the amount of evidence we need to give a guy the electric chair. Like, doesn't that. Isn't that crazy that we need, like, indisputable visual evidence for, like, players are playing the game, but we need machines to officiate it? I mean, that's just. I think that when I see the idea that we're, you know, and this is beyond the fact that, like, I mean, particularly in basketball now is even worse with football.

[Dan Le Batard]

No. Soccer. Mike. Mike has stopped being or not Stopped being a soccer fan. But instant replay has ruined Mike's experience with soccer.

[Stugats]

Absolutely made the sport much worse and less of an appointment watching for me. It used to be bonafide my favorite sport and it's been knocked down a few pegs because I can't celebrate a goal. And we're talking about like, like little toenail differences. It's just terrible.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, you know, because, well, we like. It's just interesting to me how the idea that a bad call by the official is not sort of part of the narrative of the game. It's just now it's this thing. It's like, well, this means that the outcome isn't objectively true, but never. And also the other problem is that even with instant replay, yes, they more often get the correct call, but not. It's not 100%. Sometimes it kind of leaves you almost, with almost, almost a worst taste in your mouth because it consumed all this time for an outcome that they couldn't change. I just, I don't think it is. I don't think it adds anything to the game. I think it more. I think it detracts from the.

[Dan Le Batard]

It adds more accurate, right? It. It adds.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, sure, yeah. Oh, of course. I mean it is if that. If you. And I think that there's now this contingent of people who are involved with gambling and so they see this very differently. They're like, we must have an objective outcome because if we don't, it could cost me money or whatever. I don't see it as so essential though that if we like, like, you know, when I was talking about this when I was on Simmons podcast, because of course everyone disagrees with me. It seems like a crazy thing to say in 2026 that you don't want to use technology to your advantage. But he was talking about the old Houston oilers, Pittsburgh Steelers, AFC title game back from like the late 70s, early 80s where there was a controversial call in the end zone with wide receiver. And many people in Houston feel like that cost in the game. But the call was, you know, the touchdown wasn't allowed and people were like, well, see, it's great. That would never happen now. But the only reason we're talking about it this many years later is because that did happen. The mistake was part of that experience and part of that game. It's part of the history of those two franchises. Some of these things that people want to correct are like short term remedies. Like if they really care about the idea of the sport, that is part of it. The idea that human error plays a role both for the players and for the officiating crew. I don't think we need to constantly stop the game, especially to look at these things in like a frame by frame basis with basketball. It's really maddening because things will happen in the last minute of a basketball game that are then officiated in a way that they have not been officiated for the last 47 minutes or the last 39 minutes. Like the idea if you hold a basketball in your hand and someone punches it out, technically the last thing it touches is the bottom of your finger. But at no point in the game is that possibly out on the guy holding the ball until they go to instant replay at the very end. It's, it's, it's, it's really reversing the whole idea of how that play is supposed to be officiated.

[Zaz]

Chuck, the AFC championship game was defined by weather this year with the Broncos and Patriots. But you the weather games in NFL.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, one of the great things about football, one of the things I think that makes it so sort of unique and special, pick up the other American sports, is that, you know, baseball, it's like, we'll cancel the game if it rains. You know, basketball is an indoor sport. Hockey is a simulation of coldness. Football is the only sport where natural elements are assumed to be part of what you're going to experience if the game is outside. You have to factor that in. You have to build your team with the knowledge that there may be scenarios, particularly late in the year, that will contradict the way you want to play. I mean, this is, you may have to play more of a kind of a primitive physical style. You have to have that as kind of you're in your bank vault of possibilities because weather is a role. It's this kind of new X factor that you can't expect, you can't anticipate this idea that you want to play these games and in these climate controlled places to get the most. Again, it's a little bit like instant replay that you're trying to get this, trying to take all subjectivity out of this. You want only the objective outcome. I think it's insane that like they want to put a dome up in Philadelphia. I think it was a huge mistake for the Viking franchise to take away that advantage and put themselves in these domes. I just, I mean, I think that most people who like football love weather games and it's very strange to hear someone who doesn't.

[Dan Le Batard]

Most people, though most people who would Watch television would like that fire to be real and catch fire and you have to run out of the room. It doesn't mean that that's how you'd want to experience it. Like, it's not a good measurement of how this is all measured. Right. You put whether the Patriots just made it to the super bowl, not just because Denver had a bad quarterback, because they didn't have to do anything in the second half because it was snowing too much and nobody was actually playing football anymore to get to the Super Bowl.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Nope, they were still playing football. They were playing a different kind of football where it wasn't so easy to kick a 45 yard field goal and it wasn't easy to throw the ball downfield and you had to change things in order to make it.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's not the football they were playing all year when they were doing the measurements. It's not unlike your instant replay argument. They're playing a different game at the end of the season than they are at any other point during the season.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Except that we understand that we live in a place where the climate shifts. Like that's an understanding you have. Like it's. No one's surprised that it's cold and possibly snowy in New England in December and January. Like that's part of it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah.

[Mike Ryan]

Chuck, I don't think fans spending dearly to attend a game would agree with this, but why do you think football is best watched on tv, not in person?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, there are hundreds of reasons to go to a live football game, but one of them cannot be, well, I really wanted to see what happened in the game. I wanted to see the game better. Every person on television is seeing the game with more clarity than every person in the stadium, including the coaches and the players. I mean, the way football is constructed, it is impossible to have sort of a neutral sight line for the entire game. If you're sitting in the corner of the end zone, there might be situations where a play happens right in front of the pylon and you have this unique view that only you have. It's this kind of rarefied thing where it almost seems like the game is coming right into your lap. But in almost every other situation, what is happening is what you are seeing with your eyes is then being transposed in your mind to that sort of classic view we see on television from midfield, pointed down, players moving horizontally across the field. I mean, like, football is a mediated event, even when there is no media involved. I would guess if I asked any of you right now, imagine a Football game. Like in your mind, just imagine a football game. I would guess the majority of you would be seeing something that looks the way it looks on television. Even if you've played a football game in your life, even if you played in high school, you're probably not reverting back to that experience. The first thing you thought of was what it looks like on tv. Because football is the one sport that is always better on television. Hockey is always better. Live football is always better on television. Every other sport is debatable, depending on the conditions and where you're sitting and all these other things. But football is made for television. And the reason it's so dominant in this country is completely married to that. Like football starts after the Civil War, evolves in its own way. But when it intersects with the rise of television in the 1950s, that's when all this change. This is when all this. That's when football becomes this thing that is different and a reflection of society as opposed to just one component.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mike, you'll appreciate that Chuck thinks college football is better than pro football.

[Stugats]

Yes, sports are at its best when they're most regional and tribal. And college football does that much better than any of the pro sports.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes, the regional quality is huge. The historical aspect is huge too, because pro sports are made to almost be completely reinvented every eight to 10 years. If you love a pro franchise, the expectation is, especially with the way the NFL operates, is that within a 10 year span you should be good at some point. College was always a little different. Now this is going to change with all this nil portal business that's obviously shifting the sport very radically. But I thought it was always extremely interesting how there was like this real diversity of thought between how teams play in the Southeast and how teams played in the Pac12 and how teams played in the Midwest. I think it's really interesting fun that when you say watching, say, you know, Duke is playing Florida State, in a sense you are sort of rooting against or for the person you assume who goes to that school. Like it kind of creates a caricature of the kind of person who's part of that institution in a way that doesn't happen. Like if you watch the Arizona Cardinals, you don't think of the Cardinals as like representing the people of Phoenix in any real way. That's just where the players got drafted. That's just like where they pay taxes. But at the college level it is different. Plus the game on the field is just better. It's more interesting, you know, because the Teams play more differently, whereas in the NFL, outside of the, you know, the very, you know, outliers, the teams are fundamentally all playing the same offense and the same defense 90% of the time.

[Dan Le Batard]

His is a popular viewpoint on the weather. He writes in the book. The name of the book is Football the Weather. We are able basically to live in the modern world separate from the climate, and football demands us not to. Football forces us to sort of consider how that will affect not just how the game is played, but the mentality of how much respect we give these guys. The Dolphins head coach, he acts really meek in cold weather and tries to overcompensate, and it really reflects badly on him. And I don't even know if he realizes. I guess he's fired now. But coming from North Dakota, I probably like weather more than most people. My wife would always be confused when I talk on the phone to my parents because we talk for 12 minutes and we talk about the weather for five minutes. And she's like, to her, that's what you talk about when there's nothing else going on. And I was like, not if you live on a farm in North Dakota. It's the most important thing happening at all times. Yours is the popular viewpoint here. Everybody wants to watch football players as if it's not bad enough what they're doing for a living. Throw some rain and some just terrible below freezing temperatures.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, this is. Actually, I would like to ask you this D. Because I'm not exactly sure what the answer is, on balance. Is your position now anti football more than pro football? Like, I mean, like, like, I can't.

[Dan Le Batard]

I.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, I've. Well, I've watched you for a bunch of years and I feel like I've seen a real evolution in the way you think about lots of things. And I'm wondering if now you are of the position that, I mean, even if you still have a connection to it as a guy, and if you still like watching it, would you say, on balance, it's bad for society?

[Dan Le Batard]

Bad for society? Football.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That would. Would society be better if football was either not part of the world or. Or if nothing else, a much smaller percentage of how football and culture is consumed? Like, if football was not this dominant thing, would you prefer it to be less dominant, social?

[Dan Le Batard]

I would say my answer to that is complicated, but I'd prefer that football players be looked at and thought of as human beings first. And the sport makes it very hard them. I enjoy the hell out of football, and I'm not against people enjoying however it is. They spend their weekends gambling on football and consuming it like an addiction. But as the numbers. The place where you may have seen my opinions change on football some is with the last 20 years of advancements with the metrics, what I want and why I don't like the weather game is I want accurate measurements. I want to be able to measure who's better. I've been talking for three weeks about how I think the Rams are better than the Seahawks, and the three games they played doesn't prove to me that the Seahawks are actually better. Hmm.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, okay, two things on this. One, it is kind of like what you just started by saying, like, you want to see football players perceived differently, and football makes it very hard for that to happen. I think that the irony to that is the reason football is so much more successful than the other sports in the United States is because it does sort of downplay individualism. And like, we believe that we want to see, like, the players have autonomy and freedom, but that's. People want that for themselves with the rest of the world. What they want is to see control. And football does reflect that. Like, football is the most controlled team sport there is. The thing about the weather, like, you're saying, like, you were arguing that the Rams are better than the Seahawks, and what you're sort of saying is that in a vacuum almost, if this was simulated on a computer, that the value of the Rams roster is greater than the value of the Seahawks roster. And if you, you played this game 100 times, the Rams maybe 163. I guess that's true. That seems to me a bit antithetical to the enjoyment of sports. Like, I, I think one thing that I'm sometimes critical of analytics, not because they're wrong, but because I have a hard time sometimes understanding what the point of analytics is. It seems to be, to me, an attempt for people to be able to predict what's going to happen in something where we're actively hoping the outcome is unknown.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, I'd say understanding or closer to understanding more than prediction. Prediction is pretty impossible. But when you say this derails the academics of. It derails some of the metrics. Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback I have ever seen. The only time he won a Super bowl is when he did it through domes because nobody was affecting the greatest quarterback I've ever seen. There was no weather. There were no. It's the only time he's been able to win it. And so I, I, that's not predicting. I guess it's Confirming my belief on understanding that's the best quarterback I've ever seen. How is the only one.

[Jeremy]

One.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, so. But you're. What you're arguing, though, is that the best reflection of someone is always in a situation where there's nothing impacting from the outside. I mean, that it's only that it's. That it's like a. You know, and that. I mean, that's not it. I'm not saying that's insane. Certainly there's a percentage of people who agree with you. But I think that the. When you start thinking about the things that draw you to any kind of pastime, what you're doing is sort of eliminating some of the most interesting details for us. Kind of a. I don't know, almost like an intellectual comfort that your understanding of the thing is reflected most accurately. I don't. I don't know if that's like. To me, that. That does not seem why football is interesting or football is important.

[Dan Le Batard]

What feels better than being right? Chuck?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, maybe. I don't know. Does it feel that good to be right? I guess I never am, so. I don't know. Like, it's an unknown thing to me. Maybe if I was ever right about anything, I would be like, oh, this is wonderful. You know, this guy's on to us. Get rid of him.

[Dan Le Batard]

The name of the book is football. He is exceptional. Chuck, you can't be on enough. Thank you, sir, for the wisdom and the relentless curiosity. Appreciate it.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Thanks, Dave.

[Stugats]

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[Chuck Klosterman]

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[Stugats]

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[Dan Le Batard]

You don't remember the idea?

[Chuck Klosterman]

I was probably like, that kind of thing.

[Dan Le Batard]

Something.

[Mike Ryan]

Okay. No. The home run call Was that kind of swing, that kind of thing.

[Stugats]

Stugats. Oh, it's a good call.

[Mike Ryan]

Thank you. And plus, it doesn't matter who's hitting it. Like, you're not tailoring it to a particular name. You know, all that jazz, you know, you don't got to do that.

[Stugats]

Oh, that would be a great call.

[Mike Ryan]

Swing, that kind of thing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Stugats]

That was great. That was awesome. Thank God for Chuck because he could have that conversation with Dan and he's got the bona fides that Dan will respect him because what he said, every single punch back that he had was so on the money. I was rooting for Chuck in that interview.

[Dan Le Batard]

Somebody should do a long form podcast with him. Oh, that's been done already.

[Stugats]

But that was great. And, like, he just convinced me of things. Like, I used to be team Dome. And then I realized, like, every. Everybody's just gonna be so reliant on their apps and detached that I think 20 years from now, we're going to be waxing poetic and nostalgic about, like, you remember the snow games? You remember how. How the Raiders went into Foxborough and no one knew what the talk rule was and how great that was. It gives things character, and I think we're going to be longing for that before long.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Jared Stidham threw the ball backwards. Remember Jared Stidham.

[Dan Le Batard]

Tony, you've had an ugly show today.

[Stugats]

Hold on.

[Zaz]

Hold on a second. Hold on a second.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hold on. What I want. You're not the only one. You're not the only one.

[Stugats]

It was one time.

[Dan Le Batard]

What I want you to do is I want you to go to an ugly place in Miami and do your top five from a symbolically ugly place that symbolizes the performance that you have had today. Go there Now. I'm also going to get rid of Jeremy, and he was doing, you know, parody songs yesterday. He was loving the parody songs in the commercials. So, Jeremy, I would like for our newest sponsor here, Money lion on the fine bucket. I want for you to do a song, a commercial song for Money Lion. Leave the room and see if you can do that.

[Tony]

Genre suggestions? Pop.

[Stugats]

Pop.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm not.

[Chuck Klosterman]

We're not going to turn this into Metallica 80s balladica.

[Dan Le Batard]

Timidly, you could just go and you figure it out. And Tony, you go as well. And we're going to try and clean up a variety of things that we've got going on around here. That was some strong Green Day commentary. You had, Zaslow, that Klosterman is saying, well, do you need your punk band to be punk all the time? Because I'm guessing your punk band's not going to allow be allowed to play the super bowl if your punk is too punk.

[Zaz]

Yeah, no, I think I do need my punk rock band to be punk rock all the time because that's literally what being punk rock is. And I felt it was embarrassing for Green Day that they, you know, they've talked a big game throughout their tour, you know, and for years, like Chuck said, going back to George Bush, and now you got the biggest stage you've ever had. And they clearly followed a mandate from the NFL. You punk rock ain't following mandates.

[Mike Ryan]

Okay, but. But by that reckoning, Bad Bunny at the Grammys said ice out. He didn't say any of that at the super bowl halftime show. Do you look down on Bad Bunny for not using that stage?

[Zaz]

I don't see. Maybe I don't know enough about Bad Bunny.

[Stugats]

I think that's the case because Bad Bunny has been very outspoken.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is one of the most gangster things that the people in power of the NFL have done. They not only nuked the idea of you're going to be unsportsmanlike on the field, and it's totally normal for us to see, you know, a defensive back for the Seahawks reek Woolen, trash talk a sideline and on a huge call, get a penalty. They've scrubbed that out of it. And if you want to play in their halftime show, it is such a privilege and such, such a blessing, you will do it for free and you will shut up like, that's the rules. Like, yeah, Bad Bunny. The most controversy you're going to give us is you're going to say the correct things in sp. Not gonna say anything that offends any of the people running this sport because you decide to make too much of a political statement. You're gonna have to try and hide it in your art the way that Prince did by going all phallic during a halftime show.

[Stugats]

And maybe this is giving him too much credit. Maybe he's just saying, all right, that's what it takes to play the Super Bowl. It's great for my career, it's great exposure. But it is meta type of thinking in that you're gonna become this national talking point, you're gonna become overly politicized in the end, you're gonna give your performance that is relatively non offensive, Right? And people are just going to have to make things up. And at the end of it, they're Just gonna say what's at the heart of it. The whole time, you're not speaking English, you're dunking on them with the biggest halftime show of all time. Everyone showing their ass that had any sort of criticism, they're just going back to, you're not speaking English. You absolutely won the day, and you won the day by following the rules.

[Zaz]

I would just, you know, back to the Green Day part. Like, Dan, I would. I would equate it to you. Like, if you. If you got to sit down with an interview subject and you were. Because of the high profile that this subject is, you're gonna have as big an audience you've ever had. But you were told there are a couple things that you are not allowed to ask. I'm fairly certain you're not gonna do the interview or you're gonna still ask the things.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, that's. Yeah, that's how I would try to do it. But we've been cast aside from where it is when no one comes on the show. Mainstream exists because of that, their costs.

[Stugats]

We had Tyler Shuck as our big guest.

[Dan Le Batard]

There are costs to that freedom and wherever it is that you. Well, but is. Is Green Day just given how popular they are? Like, I know Iggy Pop is. Is punk as well, but once you become so popular, are you even still punk?

[Chuck Klosterman]

That's where I think Chuck was wrong. Green Day at almost every show, you go to these still to this day, it's not wall to wall like he.

[Zaz]

Said, but they're saying something.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Stuff.

[Stugats]

They're saying, I've seen them twice recently. Yeah, but you don't get to do.

[Dan Le Batard]

This if you're gonna do that. That's not allowed.

[Stugats]

I'm with you. I'm not. I think it's a weird criticism to have. Like, they're. They're playing the people know what Green Day stands for. Some people are rediscovering their catalog.

[Zaz]

Some people knows what Green Day stands for.

[Stugats]

I think people are watching that performance, realizing that it was non offensive, and then they're going to their catalog as they do. This is quantifiable. Anybody that plays on the super bowl gets a boost and then jokes on them. They're listening to their catalog and being like, oh, man, this stuff resonates politically today.

[Mike Ryan]

If you do what Bad Bunny does for a living, your biggest possible stage is the Super Bowl. Your second biggest might be the Grammy Awards. So when he says ice out at the Grammy Awards, everybody in the world knows how he feels.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, but not.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't think he needs to say it again.

[Dan Le Batard]

Grammys is not nearly this, Greg.

[Zaz]

Not.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, not nearly.

[Mike Ryan]

I understand that nothing is near this.

[Dan Le Batard]

I know but nothing is close to this. And so it. Look, I understand how it is Somebody would want their punk rock band to be punk rock all the time and do something artfully there. It's prohibited. Like that place is about rules and you just heard Klosterman give eloquence to. We like that. We like that everyone's under control. We like the Jerry Jones isn't letting them kneel like that's. It's part of why it's so popular. They've got governance over all of that while, you know, one owner quietly leaves his giant statue outside the stadium because he's getting alleged foot rubs that he's not supposed to get and let's not talk about Jerry Richardson and another one's in the Epstein files allegedly and. And don't look at any of that. We've got control.