Hour 1: Grand Symphony of Ego and Narcissism (feat. Mark Kriegel)

Summary

Summary of “Hour 1: Grand Symphony of Ego and Narcissism (feat. Mark Kriegel)”

Release Date: June 12, 2025

Guest: Mark Kriegel
Mark Kriegel is an acclaimed boxing writer and ESPN boxing analyst. His latest work, “Baddest: The Making of Mike Tyson,” delves deep into the life and psyche of the legendary boxer.

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1. Exploring Mark Kriegel’s Journey into Mike Tyson’s Biography

Mark Kriegel discusses his motivation for writing a comprehensive biography on Mike Tyson. Initially hesitant due to past negative experiences covering Tyson in the '90s, Kriegel finds Tyson's resilience and complex personality compelling enough to undertake the project.

Mark Kriegel [01:14]: "I tackled this project because I owed the publisher money...the more I thought about it, the more I came to consider him."

2. The Depth of Mike Tyson’s Struggles and Triumphs

Kriegel emphasizes Tyson's ability to survive immense personal hardships, including substance abuse, the loss of his mother, and early incarceration. He highlights Tyson’s unexpected transformation, illustrating how Tyson prefers the order of prison over the chaos outside.

Mark Kriegel [02:25]: "Mike pushes back on this, but he was asking a kid, 13 years old...He outpaced our capacity to imagine him."

3. The Complex Relationship with Trainer Cus D'Amato

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Tyson’s relationship with his trainer, Cus D'Amato. Kriegel posits that D'Amato's ego heavily influenced Tyson's career, shaping him into a champion while also creating personal demons.

Mark Kriegel [04:41]: "Cus wanted him to be Alexander the Great...a tale of incarceration, especially juvenile incarceration."

4. Addressing the Darker Facets of Tyson’s Life

Kriegel candidly addresses the more troubling aspects of Tyson’s life, including addiction, abuse, and personal loss. He reveals that his book concludes in 1988, at the peak of Tyson's career, to set the stage for future turmoil without delving into later controversies.

Mark Kriegel [05:34]: "The most brutal fact of his life is that he never gets a chance to earn his mother's love."

5. Light-Hearted Banter on the Boxing Writers Association

The conversation takes a humorous turn as Dan Le Batard questions Kriegel about his membership in the Boxing Writers Association of America, leading to playful exchanges about the legitimacy and exclusivity of the association.

Dan Le Batard [07:56]: "Can you just enter your writers association without having written anything?"

6. Reflections on Past Writings about Pat Riley

Mark Kriegel shares his evolving perspective on Pat Riley, contrasting his past admiration with a more critical stance today. He discusses Riley’s ambition and control, hinting at challenges he faced while attempting to write a biography about him.

Mark Kriegel [11:40]: "Pat's career, especially in Miami...empire building, and it's also a case of enormous ego."

7. NASCAR Segment: Race in Mexico City

Shifting gears, Dan Le Batard introduces an upcoming NASCAR Cup Series race in Mexico City. He provides insights into the competitors, the significance of the race being held at the Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, and the introduction of a podium celebration for the top three finishers.

Dan Le Batard [24:06]: "This is going to be an excellent race...the top three finishers are going to get celebrated."

8. Ethical Concerns in the Commercialization of Youth Sports

Dominique Foxworth leads a critical discussion on the growing trend of monetizing youth sports. They examine the implications of paying young athletes, the commodification of children’s talents, and the potential exploitation by private equity firms. The conversation highlights the moral dilemmas and the loss of innocence in youth athletics.

Dominique Foxworth [27:30]: "They become commodities and they become stepping stones...we cannot also close our eyes to the position that we're putting these players in."

9. Concluding Insights and Final Banter

The episode wraps up with light-hearted interactions among the hosts, reflecting on the depth of the conversation and maintaining the show’s signature humor. They express interest in Mark Kriegel’s book and tease future discussions.

Stugotz [26:08]: "Put it on the poll, please. Was Alexander the Great a mama's boy?"

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Kriegel [04:41]: "Balancing what he had survived...it was descent in a dystopia."
• Dominique Foxworth [27:30]: "We cannot also close our eyes to the position that we're putting these players in."
• Dan Le Batard [24:52]: "I wanna hear the unauthorized version."

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Key Takeaways:

• Mark Kriegel’s Biography on Mike Tyson delves into the boxer’s resilience amidst personal and professional chaos, focusing on his psychological battles and relationships.

• The Influence of Cus D'Amato is pivotal in shaping Tyson’s career, illustrating the complex interplay between mentor and protege.

• Ethical Implications in Youth Sports prompt a critical examination of how commercialization affects young athletes' well-being and development.

• Humorous and Critical Interactions among the hosts provide a balanced and engaging narrative, making complex topics accessible and entertaining.

This episode offers deep insights into the life of Mike Tyson through Mark Kriegel’s experienced lens, while also addressing broader issues within the sports industry. It combines serious analysis with the show’s characteristic humor, making it a compelling listen for both sports enthusiasts and casual listeners.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats podcast.

[Stugotz]

Dominique, our next guest here. Mark Kriegel is one of the best. He's the foremost boxing writer in America, but for a long time he has been one of the best sports writers in America. He's currently a boxing analyst for espn. And like the best sports writers, he gravitates toward the boxers because they're weird and fascinating and often vulnerable, publicly courageous. And his, his latest book, Baddest the Making of Mike Tyson is available now. And this writer with this project, I'm fascinated by Tyson cause I just think he's the most interesting athlete of my time for a lot of different reasons, just interesting. And it's at least in part cuz he'd reveal himself to you and is somebody that was more comfortable in prison than outside of it, didn't want to leave prison when he got to prison because prison had more order. And I'm just sure that Kregel has found a thousand things about this man's life because he's one of the best reporters to this there's been. So Mark, thank you for joining us. And just start us here on like you tackled this project because I imagine you too find him more interesting than anyone else you've covered.

[Mark Kriegel]

I tackled this project because I owed the publisher money and he broached the idea of Tyson and my first thought was like what? What body part would I rather impale than revisit? All the crap I wrote in the 90s and the schmuck I was back then and you know, in large measure who he was back then. And I, I started to think about it and you know, no writer wants to give back money. But the more I thought about it, hey man, you know that.

[Stugotz]

The more.

[Mark Kriegel]

I, the more I thought about it, the more I came to consider him. Not by who he had knocked out or all the stuff he had talked, but by what he had survived. And by that measure, I gotta love the guy I'm writing about if I'm gonna live with him for a biography. And by that measure, what he had survived to me was monumental and a sign of virtue. I mean, booze, coke, the death of a mother, the absence of a father, a neighborhood in Brownsville that like calling it a ghetto to me seems entirely insufficient. It was a full on dystopia. Molestation, incarceration as a juvenile. And this is largely. You talk about wanting to remain locked up. This is largely a tale of incarceration, especially juvenile incarceration. He was locked up as an Adult, obviously, as a kid, he survived boxing. And one of the reasons we are drawn, those of us who love melodrama to boxing is cause the third act is inevitably the tragedy and it's the noir and it's the reveal and it's the curse. The odd thing about Tyson is that he turned the third act around. The third act has become like the most unlikely triumph I've ever seen. The book opens with him watching his daughter play tennis. I should say also that he survived the death of a child, which I don't know how the hell you do that, but. And I'm thinking about him watching his kid play tennis. And what he's actually done is he's outpaced our capacity to imagine him. Like, who the hell could have imagined Mike Tyson watching his kid play tennis? And Dana Point. I couldn't.

[Stugotz]

Can you help me for. Can you take me through a little bit about what it is that you would say to others is most interesting about Mike Tyson if you can only select a thing or two.

[Mark Kriegel]

Dan, I'm not BSing, but 2019, you did an interview with him that begins with the DMT and the toad, and it seems like it's going to be a goof of this hallucinated jinn. And he talks about the death of the ego, and he was. Fighters need that ego especially to play the role he did heavyweight champion of the world in a particular kind of heavyweight champion. But this is a story set into motion largely by the trainer's ego in custom model. And I think that there's something in that interview with him that you nail that goes right to. Right to the core of his being. He loves Cus for rescuing him, but he created this ego monster. And I think in large measure it was about Cus's ego. And Mike pushes back on this, but this is. But he was asking a kid, 13 years old, he pulls out a lockup to make him customato live forever.

[Stugotz]

So you're fascinated by the psychology of how people are made. You're saying that he, by environment, sort of perfectly built to both be a menace and also be conquered by an assortment of temptations.

[Mark Kriegel]

Yeah, I mean, Cus wanted him to be Alexander the Great, and in fact he was. But in Tyson, he had like the perfect mound of clay. And you know, when I mentioned this to Tyson, we had two conversations basically to establish ground rules. No more. But when I said, hey, you know, Cus is asking you to live forever, he pushes back. He goes, well, what do you think would become of me otherwise? And he says, well, didn't I? And in fact. In fact, he did. As long as people know Tyson's name, they will know the name of Cus, the model. My question is, at what price?

[Stugotz]

How did you approach the most disturbing aspects of his life? Addiction, abuse, incarceration, rape, loss.

[Mark Kriegel]

I mean, by accident. This book ends. This book ends in 88 at the Sphinx fight, which was a term of art in boxing. Fight of the century, but. And it's there with. With Trump. It's center stage. And it's the high point of Tyson's professional career. But everything's in place for his life to fall apart, so it ends right there. And, you know, boxing is like a grand symphony of ego and narcissism. And you could see it's like the. The caboose, or whatever it is, gets all the way up to the top of the roller coaster, and it's about to fall. So it ends in 88. But I don't deal with the 92 trial or anything beyond that. But it's the same way you excavate the interior of anyone's life. I think from my perspective, the great wound, the hole that he's only recently been able to fill, is his mom. He has this theory about all great conquerors, including Alexander the Great, were mama's boys. But to me, the. The most brutal fact of his life is that he. He never gets a chance to earn his mother's love or to get his mother's love.

[Stugotz]

She.

[Mark Kriegel]

She's broken. She was broken when. When her man ran out and something fractured inside of her, and the drinking picks up. And, you know, Mike is a great basketball player by the name of Lloyd Daniels, you may remember. And he actually grew up next door and was essentially a shelter for. For single. Single women. He says, man, you know, you know, I had it easy. I had, like, my alcoholic uncles and whatever else, and my grandma, but Mike's family. Mike's family was the street. And I think that's really the original wound with Mike, you know, and in some senses, fighters became his family. He loves fighters, but whether they're dead or alive, real to him.

[Stugotz]

Put it on the poll, please. Was Alexander the Great a mama's boy? And what he just described was our show when he called it a grand symphony of ego and narcissism. Boxing is what he called that. And that is also. That would be on the tombstone of our show, a grand symphony of ego and narcissism.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you for the vine. Mark, I have a question that might appear like we're getting sidetracked here. But you're a member of the prestigious Boxing Writers association of America.

[Stugotz]

Oh, no.

[Dan Le Batard]

In 2021, you were honored with the Nat Fleischer Award. What was the criteria to enter your writers association? Can you just enter your writers association without having written anything?

[Mark Kriegel]

I think you just need a cell phone. I think you just need a cell phone at this point. It used to be the great. It used to be the great literary sport. All you need is this piece of you know what?

[Dominique Foxworth]

Well, that backfired.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, no, no, no. Hold on.

[Mark Kriegel]

That's it here. I'm a boxing writer here.

[Stugotz]

Hold on.

[Dan Le Batard]

But you need a cell phone about this, right? You need a cell phone to write. Yeah, so. But. So my question is, can you enter a writer's association without actually having anything? Writing is optional. You don't actually have to get anything published to be a member of the Boxing Writers association in this.

[Mark Kriegel]

No, no, I'm being. I'm being facetious.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, thank you.

[Mark Kriegel]

At this point, like. Yes, okay.

[Dan Le Batard]

Writers, at this point, they're just letting anybody in, right? At this point, they're just, like, letting non writers in. Right.

[Stugotz]

This needs to stop right now.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, I'm sorry. Was I just right?

[Stugotz]

You need to.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, I was.

[Stugotz]

You're not right about him not writing. He did write. And the accusation is.

[Mark Kriegel]

Oh, yeah, me.

[Stugotz]

Oh, Mark. You're.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mark, you're a writer.

[Stugotz]

I need you.

[Dan Le Batard]

You got into this writer' association by doing it the right way. We have someone in this show.

[Stugotz]

No, no, no.

[Dan Le Batard]

Let me explain. You guys have done enough. And now that I'm right, you want to pile on? We have someone in the show that is a member of the Hockey Writers Association. My question is. Oh, I didn't know that you wrote. What did you write? I wrote an article, an op ed for the Hockey News. All right. That makes you a writer. However, he wrote that after he was granted access into this writer's association, he was a member of the writers association without having written anything. And everyone looked at me like I was crazy because I asked that question. Now, Mark, you're accomplished, and I know I don't sound crazy right now. Would you have been granted access into your illustrious Boxing Writers association of America without having written anything yet?

[Mark Kriegel]

I've seen it. I've seen it done. I've seen it.

[Stugotz]

Yes.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Another victory for Roy. He's seen it done.

[Dan Le Batard]

Because you. Because times have changed.

[Stugotz]

It can't be the Hockey News. What is that? That's offensive. You can't say.

[Mark Kriegel]

Hold up. If you write like a.

[Stugotz]

Go ahead.

[Mark Kriegel]

If you write something like a season roundup, like in the Hockey News or something in boxing, like, the state of boxing writing is such that I think that you might be elevated to, like, Proust status.

[Dominique Foxworth]

There we go.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right. This is more of a state of the industry thing that I want to get bogged down in. Like, you got access by writing. Yeah. And I'm. Please, I'm sorry for my tone. I'm just. Yeah, I'm just. My back is up against the wall here.

[Mark Kriegel]

Walk into something. I don't know.

[Stugotz]

But, yeah, that's okay. And Chris has been yelling the entire time. Explain it to him.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm taking this as a dub, guys. You weren't prepared for that question. Maybe I'm a writer.

[Stugotz]

All right, thank you, Mark. Sorry that we confused you. He's very interested in being.

[Mark Kriegel]

I'm easily confused.

[Stugotz]

Last question, though. You also wrote very. A long time ago. One of the best to ever write well about Pat Riley. And I'm curious on a couple of fronts. A. How do you look back on what you wrote about TTYSON in the 90s? What. What does that say about who you were back then? And how much remorse do you have about how you wrote about him in the 90s? And what could you tell my snotty producer there, Mike Ryan, when he blasphemes about Pat Riley, saying that, you know, Pat Riley's time with the Miami Heat the last five years has been a bit of a failure.

[Mark Kriegel]

I'm less enamored with Pat than I was 30 years ago for reasons. I'll get in with you later. I do think he falls into the category of. Of grand, accomplished narcissists. I had. I had an idea about Pat that I wanted to do prior to Tyson, which is really about. His life is a symphony of ambition. And what do you. What do you do? And I think this was true of his father as well. What do you do when the game you love more than anything in the whole world doesn't quite love you back, and your physical talent isn't commensurate with your ambition and your. Especially your desire? So I saw Pat, and I still think. I still think it was the greatest mistake the Knicks ever made. Now, you could do the faxing, the resignation, but not signing him, not locking him up, was the biggest mistake in the history of the Knicks organization. I grew up, like, two blocks in the garden on 8th Avenue. If you look at the. You want to talk about the last five years, that's great. But also consider the last 30. So Pat's career, especially in Miami, you know, he got what he wanted. It's a case of, like, empire building, and it's also a case of enormous ego. What was the question about Tyson?

[Stugotz]

Do I regret what you wrote about him in the 90s when you look back at it, right? Cause we, we created a mythology around him as we were coming up in sports writing. You were a young man, I was a young man. We were enjoying writing about somebody who was crazy, deviant, scared, vulnerable, probably mentally ill. And we only knew the beginning of the story. And, and we wrote about him in a way that mythologized him as things happened around him that were, you know, anarchy.

[Mark Kriegel]

How do I feel about some things? I was right on something as I was overboard. I mean, like, beware a guy in his late 20s, early 30s, with ambition and thinks he's cool. Like, you know, a lot of it was schmucky, A lot of it was overboard. Some of it was right on. Most of it lacked nuance, which is, you know, you lack nuance at that age. I will say this, and this is peculiar to Tyson unlike anyone I've ever seen. The guys who were like, one in particular, Pete Hamill was my rabbi in the business, great columnist and novelist in New York. He was one of the. He wrote a beautiful obit for Customato. And he had known D' Amato and Jose Torres, that whole scene since the 50s. So did another great writer, seminal magazine writer, nonfiction writer, Gay Talese. But because Cus was such a great character and he gave the writers what they wanted, he had seduced generations of writers prior to Tyson coming on the scene. Tyson comes on the scene and now you have this ready made fable of Cus and the kid, which also lacked nuance, and it wasn't entirely the whole truth. So the peculiar thing with Tyson is that he had, and this is unlike anyone else, he had literary cachet before he had street cred. It's only later that he becomes like an icon in what we now know as like the hip hop generation. But what came first and what seduced a whole assembly of TV executives was the literary cachet that, oh, you're writing about someone important and he's keeping the old trainer's dream alive, which might be the greatest trope in all of boxing. But Tyson was a very peculiar creature.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like that, from one writer to another as well said, oh, come on.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Don.

[Stugotz]

LeBatard, what is the worst part of the life?

[Mark Kriegel]

Stugats.

[Dominique Foxworth]

The worst part of the life of what? This is the Dan Levatar show with the stugats.

[Stugotz]

Last thing before we let you go. The name of the book, Baddest man, the Making of Mike Tyson. The Pat Riley observation you wanted to give us at the beginning. You can give it to us at the end.

[Mark Kriegel]

Didn't I give it to you already?

[Stugotz]

Well, no, you were just. You were saying that you have your. You've rethought your position on how you wrote about him 30 years ago, and I didn't know what it is that you'd learned there.

[Mark Kriegel]

Very, really good reporter. Not just with Tyson. Well, this started. I was going to write a biography of Pat, and I kept sending him, like, genealogical material and books I had written and all sorts of stuff. I wasn't. Go ahead and do it. I can't be in a position where I ask the subject's permission. And I tried to make this clear to him. I got a call from a guy on his staff we both know, and he goes, will you please stop calling people? I said, I'm doing this book, man. I love Coach. I think the world of him. That's why I'm doing this book. I didn't realize it. No. I said, I'm doing the book. And he says, well, next week, I'll talk to him, and by this time next week, you'll hear from me or from him. We'll get back to you, tell you what we think. And again, this is a guy I adored, and I did not hear from either of them. That's what pissed me off. Instead, like, I get calls from. Like, I get texts and calls. One of them, like, from Jason Williams, saying, like, hey, I got this email. I think it was an email, not a call, like, saying, you might be getting a call from so and so. Don't talk to him. Like, I guess he sent, like, they contacted everyone who ever played for him, coached with him or whatever it was. And that's okay, that's cool. I understand that. But at least tell me first to my face. That's the answer.

[Dan Le Batard]

Coward.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Scared of him.

[Stugotz]

Coward.

[Dominique Foxworth]

It sounds like it.

[Stugotz]

Scared of him.

[Dominique Foxworth]

It sounds like it. I mean, it sounds like Pat Riley is a little concerned.

[Mark Kriegel]

Scared of who?

[Dominique Foxworth]

No, no, no. I know you're not scared, Bone Crusher.

[Mark Kriegel]

He ain't scared of me. I just. I just. I think. No, I think. I think there's something different. I think with Pat, it's an issue of control. I think that Pat has this idea, and he may well be doing it already, of this, of writing his own epic biography. And he, above all, looking back, you know, Pat doesn't want to relinquish control.

[Dominique Foxworth]

One. One word answer. Ego rankings Top three or top five?

[Mark Kriegel]

Pat Riley, five to ten, maybe five.

[Stugotz]

Five to ten. Yeah, but.

[Mark Kriegel]

But I mean, hey, I don't mean that. I don't mean that. I don't mean that as a goof on the guy, right?

[Stugotz]

No, man, look, look, you're. You are an exceptional writer and an exceptional reporter. And you're not wrong that he's beast and that he likes control. And I'm guessing he knows what kind of reporter you are. And if you get close to skeletons of truth somewhere in his past, he's going to want control over that like. And you know that. He knows that. And that's where your relationship ended on that book.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Sounds like Dan's anglin to write the biography.

[Dan Le Batard]

It sounds like Dan knows that. How awkward is this for you, pal?

[Stugotz]

See you later.

[Mark Kriegel]

You could write a hell of a. You could write a hell of a Pat bio.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah. Yeah. Probably a hell of a mouthpiece puppy.

[Stugotz]

That's right. Narcissist.

[Dan Le Batard]

I want to hear the unauthorized version.

[Stugotz]

That ego monster. That's right. No, see, but Mark writes about people, flaws and all, and so that can be scary. It's too intimate. It's too close.

[Dan Le Batard]

The Miami Heat wanting to control the message.

[Mark Kriegel]

Can I add one thing? Like, for all the excess and naughtiness with him, he changed the game in the most fundamental way. I remember, like Woj telling me, you know, this guy practically invented free agency. And the guy who could achieve no power, no agency as a player who's hanging on to stay on a roster, empowers the greatest players in the world in a way that no one could have imagined decades ago. That changes the game in the most fundamental way. And I think it's changed the game in a way he could no longer control.

[Stugotz]

Thank you, Mark, for the time and the book. I would recommend anything he writes to everyone because he is exhaustive. Baddest man, the making of Mike Tyson. Good seeing you again, sir. Appreciate the time.

[Mark Kriegel]

Take care, Dan. Take care, fellas. Thank you.

[Stugotz]

All right, Mike Ryan, making faces back there. What is the problem? What do you. What. What do you think? I. What do you think the problem is?

[Dan Le Batard]

I think that got a little awk for you.

[Stugotz]

You did?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah.

[Stugotz]

Why?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, because if I. If I can deduce anything from that. That interview is. I kinda wanna hear Mark's book.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

I wanna read it with my ears about Pat. And it seems like Pat's ducking Mark. Pat is trying to find a friendly. And Dan, you Might be that friendly.

[Stugotz]

Oh, um, no.

[Dan Le Batard]

Wait. Am I a writer? Was that. Did I just deliver the news? Yeah, you did, Dan. I might have just delivered the news to you.

[Stugotz]

I. I have been wondering why Pat Riley, an epic story like that or have someone have it told for him when he is, you know, he's got five screenplays that he's written in his house. I would assume that he would want to tell his own story. He doesn't seem to want to do that. From every angle that I have seen, I would say that that would be, you know what? Having now being in the documentary business, I would say that one of the gets that would get done no matter what. Not like unlike Jerry Jones getting a 10 part series on Netflix is if Pat Riley. Pat Riley can write his number right now. If he tells. I will tell my story.

[Dan Le Batard]

Is he waiting for a better ending?

[Stugotz]

I mean, I don't think he thinks he's ever going to die. Like, I think he's going to just crawl and try to beat everyone till the very end and then stick a hand out of the grave and say, you know, with a middle finger toward the Celtics that has a championship ring on it. Yeah, just like does he realize that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Terry Rozier is getting $27 million next year? Part of this whole equation?

[Dominique Foxworth]

Riley has told his story on the Art of Conversation.

[Stugotz]

So is Tyson, by the way, in an interview mentioned by Mark Craigel, which is the only reason we had him on. Right. For that little bit of flattery. Yes, yes. Tell me about that episode of Art of Conversation that enlightened you.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Five screenplays.

[Stugotz]

Five or six. Yeah. There's a creative buried somewhere in there that never got to be creative.

[Dan Le Batard]

And a guy that was around Tinseltown for quite a while.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Focus on roster construction.

[Stugotz]

That is the height of entertainment. Tinseltown created Showtime, learned. Yeah. Created fashion in Hollywood. Armani made Armani famous. Ridiculous legacy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Does he still have that deal or was that like an urban legend? Can walk into any Armani store and get a.

[Stugotz]

He denies it and a Rod denies it. But I, I had reported that the two of them did have that deal. Both of them had the deal with Armani where. And if they both denied it, seems like a.

[Dan Le Batard]

Do you think that's good journalism then by then? Yeah. Good job.

[Stugotz]

From one writer to another, you dicks. Did Kriegel take out the Hockey News? Did he?

[Dan Le Batard]

I wish. He played with me a little bit better because what he was doing was like his own opinion on the current state of writers because they just let anybody in, which I'm like, that's. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Mark Kriegel]

Your pal.

[Dominique Foxworth]

He ultimately did agree with Mike.

[Dan Le Batard]

You did. You saw that. You weren't prepared. Shame on you for booking a member of a writers association today. You put my back up against the wall, the claws come out.

[Dominique Foxworth]

He didn't really agree with Mike, though.

[Mark Kriegel]

Yeah, whatever he did, he made.

[Dominique Foxworth]

He was sarcastically saying that nowadays they'll.

[Mark Kriegel]

Let anyone with a phone.

[Dan Le Batard]

It was just the point I was trying to make. Hey, Huge race this weekend in Mexico City.

[Stugotz]

Wait a minute. What kind of transition is that? I saw the gear. You've had a lot of influence over today's show, including a first hour in which you've insulted Roy. Jessica reprimanded you. It seemed fair to me. You ignored it. You barreled on. You're saying you're right about everything. You're annoying people. Charlie hasn't talked in a month.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yep. Sorry about that. But, Charlie, you're not on the cast, so back off.

[Mark Kriegel]

Dan, did you really want more of.

[Stugotz]

Me as Fake Dan? Yes. I wanted to go to you until it fell apart, and then I would be victorious. But I'm saving that for the end of the show.

[Dan Le Batard]

The NASCAR Cup Series. I mean, you know, it's a.

[Dominique Foxworth]

It's a loss.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's more awkward than that interview was. We'll edit it out.

[Dominique Foxworth]

It was.

[Stugotz]

It was long. Yeah, that was. I fell apart there, man. I'm leaving it all. I fell apart there. Oh, yeah. We're live. Three of you shouted it at me. I heard it. I developed a third ear to hear it.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Always good to hear on live. We'll clean that up.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yep. NASCAR Cup Series goes to Mexico City. This is the first time, and it's.

[Stugotz]

Three shows in 24 hours. Come on.

[Dominique Foxworth]

We don't do that. We don't do that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Those hollers, those haulers went from Michigan Motor Speedway and drove all the way down to Mexico. Interesting time in history to do that, especially for nascar. Daniel Suarez. A homecoming in Mexico City. This is a road course, people. They're. They're heading over to the autodromo. Hermanos Rodriguez. Did that from the top of my head. Nailed it. Did that from the top of my head.

[Stugotz]

There was some Zagaki in there, though. Because you sounded a little scared.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, well, because I'm like, this is. Which one is it? Oh, the Hermanos Rodriguez Autodromo. Of course, that translates loosely into the autodrome. Brothers. Rodriguez. Yeah. Or Rodriguez brothers. Anywho. Daniel Suarez. Everyone's gotta be rooting for him, he's a hometown favorite. But this is a road course and there are plenty of road specialists in the NASCAR Cup Series. Chase Elliott, although he is on bad form lately. Gotta be wondering if he's at the end of his time at Hendrick Motorsports. You got Kyle Larson, who's proven that he can win in a road course. Tyler Redick, a bunch of specialists. The 11 car of Denny Hamlin seems to be in proper form. This is going to be an excellent race. It's going to be on Amazon prime. And I love Amazon Prime's coverage. Their whole approach to sports fits in perfectly with NASCAR's presentation. Gearhead is presented by NASCAR. For all the latest insights and storylines, and to find out when and where to watch, visit NASCAR.com this should be a great race. And for this race, they're doing something totally for us. They're going to have a podium. The top three finishers are going to get celebrated. In nascar, they usually generally celebrate if you ain't first, you're last.

[Stugotz]

But this time, the gearhead seems to be falling apart and missing pieces.

[Dan Le Batard]

But this time they're acclimating to a more global tradition. Not being so myopic. The top three finishers make the podium.

[Dominique Foxworth]

I thought all races were on roads. Guessing ice. Not going to be at this one.

[Mark Kriegel]

They're.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, but they're ovals.

[Mark Kriegel]

Okay.

[Dan Le Batard]

You know your super speedways and road courses and the occasional roval. How much time do you have? Let's have a coffee.

[Stugotz]

Yes, at another time, we will have a coffee. Dominique, I wanted to ask you, based on the conversation we were having with Jessica earlier, because it is wild to see happen, you know, greed, capitalism, private equity, college sports being such an untapped market for. Oh, if we stream softball and people watch. Yes, of course, a softball player will be worth a million dollars if she can dominate a game. As market inefficiencies are exploited in the business of sports and as kids and young people get devoured by it. When you see an 8th grader being paid to play football, like, at what, at what point are any one of the people listening willing to put a line on that's too far. Like that. That's too much childhood stolen in the name of business. Paying an 8th grader to play football.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Yeah. I mean, we talked about private equity firms coming into college sports, which is outrageous. How professionalized that's all. Or is becoming. But this point in the article in the New York Times, it starts off by saying that the mother of this D.C. kid who is now in eighth grade headed to the ninth grade at DeMatha, which is a sports powerhouse in that area that she remembered when he was 10 years old that coaches of like youth rec football teams were giving her thousand dollar handshakes in order to get a 10 year old to go play football on his team. And I assume that some of the reason of that is ego, but also some of reason for that is money. And it's, I think the part of it is not that I'm arguing that these players are not that valuable or don't have value. They do have value, but the scary part is that they become commodities and they become stepping stones, which happens so often and we're more accustomed to it with basketball players, which doesn't make it any better or worse. But they see a kid with some level of talent and it's not necessarily like, let me help cultivate this kid's talent to get him to where he deserves. It's where can I springboard onto after I take some credit for making this kid something. Because you'll get attention. You have the dominant kid on your 10 year old football team. You're then using that to springboard your way into being a trainer for other kids who will never make it. But you're gonna say I'll make you just like that kid because I made that kid. Or into being a coach for one of these powers, into being a college coach. Like that's the part that offends me. I understand child actors, child musicians, children with unique talents deserve to be compensated for it. The scary part is the same thing that happens in those industries starting to happen in one of the purer places or the places that we feel are pretty pure. Like youth sports. It's getting grosser and grosser and I hate it.

[Dan Le Batard]

I hear your perspective and it's a very American one. But over in the UK, if you're 15 years old and you're a hot soccer talent, you can sign at the age of, of 15 for about 175 in wages. 175,000 wages. So this is not without precedent. And they don't have these concerns across the pond.

[Dominique Foxworth]

Right. If you don't like it, Mike, you can leave. You want to go live in Europe? Beat it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Show me your papers. Did you just love it or leave it? Yeah. In the face of a good point, is that your default? This exists and there aren't the concern for the humanity of the children and the bleeding heart stuff that you're doing, which is, it's very shocking to the American system of. But These are. If. So if we're looking at these programs as actual pro programs, which they've been for a long time, then they're well within their rights to take an investment in a younger person. And that younger person is well within his rights to maximize his value.

[Dominique Foxworth]

No, I certainly appreciate the pushback and I'm not going to pretend as if I'm an expert on international football rules.

[Dan Le Batard]

But I mean, you were born in the uk.

[Dominique Foxworth]

I was born in the UK military base, baby. But my guess is that that that professionalizing at a young age has its drawbacks. Like, I don't.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, yeah.

[Dominique Foxworth]

And I think some of these people are pretty dumb. And I also think that they have a system that's designed to operate that way. We don't. We have a system that's very different. And so without the rules, that's the more concerning part. Like, again, I'm not an expert on that, but my guess is that there are some rules, but they're also very ugly things. Even though I don't know everything about it, I know that they raid countries that, that don't have the infrastructure and go pick out the athletes and then take them and exploit them.

[Dan Le Batard]

So, like, I work for one of these clubs. Chelsea had a very well run, robust academy and they had a scouting network that would go into other countries, countries that did not have this infrastructure and they would really boost their academy to the point of being one in the tops of the world.

[Dominique Foxworth]

So I appreciate, and on my show, Charlie does this a lot where I try to fall, I fall into this easy, defensible stance is I'm the bleeding heart. I feel sorry for everybody and I think it's fair to push back on that. I'm not in this position trying to say I'm a bleeding heart and feel sorry for everybod. But I'm saying that we cannot also close our eyes to the position that we're putting these players in. And so, okay, I get it. I want him. His mom said that her goal is for him to make a million dollars by the time he's a ninth grader. I'm fine with that. That's a fine goal to have and maybe it'll all work out for him. But what tends to happen in these situations is while there's a top few that we point to and we celebrate and we talk about how successful they were and how unique they are, there's a whole nother group that have to go through the grinding the machine, get injured or don' have the talent and then end out end up on the other side without the resource that we had. And then we put them into these adult systems without having put the protections. Oftentimes those protections come after someone has failed, after someone's taken advantage of. So again, I don't want to pretend like I am only pointing out the issues with it. Like, I agree. I want these kids who have talent and have value to get paid. I don't want to go to a world where he's not getting compensated for the value that he's creating. But I also don't want to turn to blight, turn a blind eye to the human cost.

[Stugotz]

But when you make it this commercial, this greedy, this, I'm gonna say distinctly American, Mike, even though you're saying, and correctly, okay, this is how they do it overseas or across the pond for some reason is the way that you decided to say it. And they do that with 14 and 15 year olds. But the place that I would stop you, and I'm not saying that soccer doesn't also have its physical perils. Bo Nix played with a broken vertebrae. Like, it's a whole. This is a whole different machine than that.

[Mark Kriegel]

Combat sport, not a contact sport.

[Dan Le Batard]

So now that it's visible, you think that it exists or have you not watched high school basketball in this country?

[Dominique Foxworth]

Oh, no.

[Stugotz]

Okay. But football, come on.

[Dan Le Batard]

Football has been happening, dude. It happens at like private schools in.

[Mark Kriegel]

Low.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ranked districts across America. Like, this happens all the time. The fact that it's actually transparent is not a bad thing and it is actually a better thing, I think.

[Dominique Foxworth]

No, and that's. I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm just saying that as we go through this process, we have to acknowledge that these other things are happening. Saying that it happens in other sports or this is not new, does not remove the fact that there are still perils in the situation. So, like, that's my point. I sincerely appreciate your pushback, but it's not an actual pushback. It's saying like, oh, it's happening. So I know it's happening. That doesn't mean that everything about it is completely on the up and up. And I think having an academy system is probably more structured and probably protects the players more than now. Where it's a kid in a middle school in D.C. where you parachute in and promise him a bunch of things in hopes that you can use it to springboard yourself into some other stretch.

[Stugotz]

Do you think? I mean, we just mentioned with Cus d' Amato, the idea of the hell you can wreak on a great young athlete by just putting on him all of your adult ego shit. But when we're talking about. I don't know where I'd have to put the age for just us to get a consensus. Yes, I believe it is wrong to pay a 8 year old.

[Dominique Foxworth]

And that's the thing, that's the hard part about a conversation. Jason. I don't ever believe it's wrong to pay somebody if they're valuable.

[Stugotz]

Okay. To play football. Okay, Concuss yourself, nine year old.