Hour 1: Just The Tip (feat. Pablo Torre)

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Hour 1: Just The Tip (feat. Pablo Torre)

February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

Broadcasting from the Elser Hotel in Downtown Miami, the crew dives into all things sports, pop culture, and larger-than-life personalities, with a focus on the explosive revelations from Pablo Torre about alleged under-the-table dealings orchestrated by the LA Clippers (and owner Steve Ballmer) surrounding the recruitment and ongoing contract of Kawhi Leonard. The episode is equal parts wild sports intrigue, media accountability discussion, and vintage Le Batard banter—anchored by Pablo’s reporting on what might be the NBA’s most intricate (and potentially damning) salary cap circumvention case in history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Aliens and Pizza: Opening Chatter

• The show kicks off with a joking discussion about congressmen discussing aliens and how odd behaviors—like ripping the crust off pizza—signal "alien" tendencies.
• Dan and Greg Cody riff about odd personal habits (“Dan rips the crust off a pizza and eats it. That's huge alien behavior.” – Dan, 01:51), and how even their own family members might be "aliens" for their pizza-eating preferences.

2. Pablo Torre’s Bombshell Clippers Reporting

• Transition to the main content: Pablo Torre teases his latest major reporting on the Clippers, Kawhi Leonard, and a sprawling network of alleged deals stretching back to 2017 (03:54+).
• Allegations Detailed:
  • The Clippers’ efforts to woo Kawhi predate his free agency, allegedly involving side deals to his uncle, hiring personal trainers, and secret contractual agreements.
  • Pablo references a quote attributed to former Clippers GM Michael Winger for emphasis about the multitude of "side deals":
    • “How many fucking side deals have we made with Kawhi?” – Pablo Torre, quoting Winger (06:45)
  • Discussion of actual documentation, contracts, emails, and multiple lawsuits (some dismissed, some ongoing) that reveal “aspiration” was just the tip of the iceberg.

3. The Long Timeline of Alleged Circumvention

• Greg Cody and Pablo Torre provide context on just how long Ballmer and the Clippers have allegedly been at this:
  • Recruiting Kawhi (as early as 2017), promising jobs to his inner circle, including his trainer Randy Shelton (07:54).
  • Uncle Dennis—Kawhi’s uncle—acting as agent for these deals, orchestrating LLCs for financial transactions.

4. The Aspiration Scandal and Its Fallout

• Aspiration, the now-collapsed fintech, exposed through bankruptcy filings to owe Kawhi $7 million; his ties to multiple LLCs created by Uncle Dennis are exposed, suggesting possible additional payment channels (13:39, 14:38).
• Lawrence Frank’s Role: Allegedly orchestrated these deals and recently signed to a lucrative contract extension, which multiple NBA execs describe as “Ballmer hush money.”
  • Pablo Torre: “NBA executives telling me they view Lawrence Frank’s extension as quote unquote, Ballmer hush money.” (13:39)

5. Smoking Gun and Accountability

• Pablo raises the specter of a whistleblower inside Aspiration, possibly providing the government with documentation linking Ballmer directly to NBA rule breaches (19:45).
  • “If that document exists, that is the closest thing you could ever have to a smoking gun on letterhead under government supervision.” – Pablo Torre (21:55)
• The group debates why this story isn't being more widely covered, citing the overwhelming complexity, risk of losing access, and NBA media’s reluctance to “rock the boat.”
  • Stu Gotz: “Most sports journalists are lazy because they think of what they're covering is the toy store. ... It's too daunting.” (28:42)

6. Journalism, Access, and Industry Realities

• The group discusses the risks and obstacles for sports journalists tackling such stories, from risking access to career prospects, especially in an era of shrinking media resources (33:31).
  • Dan Le Batard: “…do you want to be the troublemaker? ... when you're making your money off of the team that you cover, giving you information?” (33:31)
• Pablo underscores the significance and rarity of this kind of journalism in sports, calling out the broader societal implications and the pressing need for accountability:
  • “Do rules matter in the NBA? Do they matter in society?” (29:13)
  • “It's an insult to your intelligence as a sports fan. And it's also really funny because they tried to get away with it.” (32:21)

7. Meta-Banter and Show Dynamics

• Frequent self-referential humor and ribbing about long-windedness, question etiquette, and the likability of the show’s hosts add levity between dense segments (37:00–40:00).
• Recognition of Amin Elhassan’s “peak” Arnold Schwarzenegger impressions as comic highlights (38:10).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Le Batard (on pizza crust behavior as alien):
  “Dan rips the crust off a pizza and eats it. That's huge alien behavior.” (01:51)

• Pablo Torre (on the endless stream of Clippers deals):
  “How many fucking side deals have we made with Kawhi?” – quoting Michael Winger, multiple sources (06:45)

• Greg Cody (on the thoroughness of Pablo’s reporting):
  “It's meticulous, it's got addresses on it on how it is that the circumvention is happening.” (12:57)

• Pablo Torre (on hush money):
  “NBA executives … view Lawrence Frank’s extension as quote unquote, Ballmer hush money.” (13:39)

• Pablo Torre (on the possible smoking gun):
  “If that document exists, that is the closest thing you could ever have to a smoking gun on letterhead under government supervision.” (21:55)

• Stu Gotz (on media hesitance):
  “Most sports journalists are lazy because they think of what they're covering is the toy store. ... It's too daunting.” (28:42)

• Pablo Torre (on the scale of Ballmer’s power):
  “No one has the ability to buy the rest of the [NBA] combined. This guy does.” (29:13)

• Greg Cody (on the narrative reach):
  “Tying all this back to 2017, like, putting the scent out there of, oh, the world's most powerful rich sports owner has wanted something badly for eight years.” (34:29)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:08–02:34 – Alien pizza behavior, familial confessions, and light-hearted banter.
• 03:54–06:45 – Introduction to Pablo Torre’s Clippers exposé and reporting states of play.
• 06:45–13:39 – Deep dive into alleged Clippers side deals, timelines, voices, and documents. Introduction of Aspiration scandal.
• 13:39–16:03 – Lawrence Frank extension, hush money discussion, and extension implications.
• 16:03–24:04 – Story expansion: whistleblowers, impeccably sourced documentation, and risk to Ballmer; the media’s reluctance to engage densely hard reporting.
• 24:04–29:13 – Debate over why the story isn’t a mainstream scandal; difficulty, access, and media economics.
• 29:13–34:29 – Society, capitalism, and Ballmer’s unique position in the NBA; repeated investigations and the scope of alleged violations.
• 34:29–37:00 – Pablo’s investigation, starting points in 2017, and humor about host banter.
• 37:00–41:35 – Show dynamics, Greg Cody’s “parasols,” and fun at the cast’s expense.

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Conclusion

Hour 1 offers a thrilling peek behind the curtains of NBA power and subterfuge, anchored by Pablo Torre’s rigorous, bombshell reporting. The Le Batard crew oscillates between sharp comic relief and serious contemplation, highlighting the vital (and often precarious) role of journalism in holding sports’ most powerful actors to account.

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If you’re tracking the NBA, power dynamics, or simply love Le Batard’s irreverent dissection of sports culture, this episode delivers a dense, revealing, and frequently hilarious hour of radio.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

It's crazy that they're just aliens now.

[Greg Cody]

Like, but we knew that, Mike.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, like, we kind of knew that Tony knew, but. But, like, they're just saying it. You have congress people just openly saying, get them out.

[Greg Cody]

Not illegal aliens.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no. Like interventional beings.

[Greg Cody]

The green little green men, the Martians.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like, you know, you've watched Independence Day, they're here. You just have a congressman being there's.

[Pablo Torre]

Tanks of aliens somewhere.

[Dan Le Batard]

You think there was a congressman that said, like, there are five to six alien bases underwater that I know of.

[Greg Cody]

I believe them.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, of course I believe.

[Greg Cody]

Why wouldn't you believe a congressman today?

[Pablo Torre]

None of the congressman. Anybody who says it. Yeah, okay, sure. We've got aliens here in our midst, living among us.

[Dan Le Batard]

Dan rips the crust off a pizza and eats it. That's huge alien behavior. In fact, all three guys in that studio, if you were to tell me that they were aliens, I'd be like, it checks out. Most likely, though, who would be most.

[Pablo Torre]

It's Dan.

[Dan Le Batard]

And I'll tell you the reason why. Dan is, like, almost evolved enough.

[Pablo Torre]

I think Greg and Zaz are done evolving.

[Dan Le Batard]

My dad's the least actually in this game.

[Pablo Torre]

I just go back and listen to a Danny's pizza. It's pretty. Dan says things sometimes where I'm like, wait a second.

[Dan Le Batard]

Why would.

[Pablo Torre]

Why did he say that?

[Dan Le Batard]

Dan always talks weird.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, like. Like he's kind of an alien. Like the commissary. And it's like, no, it's the kitchen. Why'd you come? Come change the subject.

[Greg Cody]

They're on to us. The kitchen area, not the commissary.

[Pablo Torre]

You said the commissary one time.

[Stu Gotz]

The eating area.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's also another weird thing that an alien would say.

[Stu Gotz]

Yeah.

[Greg Cody]

In a couple years time, once our mission is carried out, they're all just gonna be intergalactic space dust and we will go back to our Lord next to the nebula galaxy. And our lord, of course, is Mad Dog Russo, which I believe everyone, if we, if we, if we told the audience that Wemby was an alien, we'd be like, yeah, yeah. Well, how did we not see that Mad Dog Russo is an alien? But before I get to Pablo Torre, because he's got another one of these reports and it's newsy and it's got a ton of stuff and I really don't know whether aspiration is the iceberg. The tip of the iceberg. The iceberg. But I think it might be just the tip of the iceberg, like because he's got more crud in here. And I thought aspiration was the iceberg and we just find tips, but there's more iceberg. Jeremy, what's the update we have on the pizza eating front? Because Juju admitted after the show, you guys, you guys are sitting here making fun of me. And amongst us, there's someone who tears off the crust before he eats pizza.

[Dan Le Batard]

I was seething yesterday. I've never, I feel like I've never been as belligerent on air toward you on air or off air about anything. Because I was like, this person is not from this planet. I said it on the air. Why would you even want to tear.

[Greg Cody]

Off the crust again? Take it up with Juju.

[Dan Le Batard]

Forget that part of it.

[Pablo Torre]

But I've seen an ally with Juju.

[Greg Cody]

He's like, I'm good on this.

[Pablo Torre]

I forget that part.

[Dan Le Batard]

They're telling us the aliens are here. We're just going on about our day. I've seen Juju eat pizza.

[Pablo Torre]

He doesn't rip off the crust.

[Dan Le Batard]

I've seen him eat. But I go home, go home yesterday and I'm complaining to my wife. I'm like. Cuz it's, it's sticking with me. I am infuriated about the fact that Dan claims that there are humans on this earth and then touch the cheese, rip off the crust before they eat pizza. And then my wife says to me, I do that sometimes. Oh my God, there is. And I told her it was a betrayal akin to murdering a member of my family. I was so furious to find out. And then she says, but you've never.

[Greg Cody]

Seen her do it.

[Dan Le Batard]

She says, because I said, well, we've been together for 12 years. Like, how have you.

[Greg Cody]

You don't do this.

[Dan Le Batard]

I've eaten pizza with you a hundred times. And she says, well, normally I would just like, do it by myself. Alien. Do it by myself.

[Pablo Torre]

It isn't alone. But why?

[Dan Le Batard]

Why would you keep the crust on your fingers? Don't get all dirty. Insanity. We have verified intelligence from the Soviets that they had an interaction with beings that are not from this planet.

[Pablo Torre]

He's right about that.

[Dan Le Batard]

They turned into stone. Turns out my wife's not from this planet.

[Greg Cody]

Pablo Torrey finds out, is still finding out he had another 5am drop that is haunting the Clippers. And I really don't know what's the most interesting thing in here. I will ask Pablo, but here is some of the updating around some of the reporting. We will say allegedly about all things because the Clippers are denying all things. There is a Jerry west voicemail in which he calls the Lakers a shit show. And the hints, the strong sniffs that the, that Ballmer was interested in Kawhi as long back as 2017. And there's more stuff here on how many side deals are beyond the aspiration deal. Pablo's again got emails, he's got contracts, he's got documents. He's got three separate lawsuits. Again, a lawsuit doesn't mean that it's proof one of the lawsuits has been dismissed by a judge. But they have valuable information in there that suggests, among other things, that the Clippers had a side deal, allegedly with Uncle Dennis to make sure that he, he got a percentage okayed by Lawrence Frank. Again, alleged. Alleged to hire Kawhi's trainer, which you're not allowed to do if you're trying to keep things above board on the salary cap. So Uncle Dennis has an assortment of LLCs, but I'll allow Pablo to come in here now. Thank you for joining us, Pablo. The episode is flying right now. Pablo Torre finds out because he's the only place any of this information is coming. I, I thought he was doing this story just because the All Star Game is in Los Angeles, the Clippers are hosting it in Ballmer. I thought it was a timeliness grab. No, there's a ton of new information inside of this. Pablo, what would you say? What if we never toss to Pablo and we just keep talking. What is the most interesting thing in there?

[Pablo Torre]

Look, I want to start with a quote from, and thank you for having me. A quote from Michael Winger, who was The Clippers GM at the time, which I've confirmed from multiple sources inside the building. Quote, how many fucking side deals have we made with Kawhi? And so what does that mean? How many side deals are there? You get to the stuff that Dane was alluding to, and one of these things, by the way, is documentation. That aspiration is just the tip. It starts in 2017 when Kawhi was with the Spurs. And the question, as always, is, what did Steve Ballmer know and when did he know it? Well, in 2017, when Uncle Dennis and the spurs and Kawhi are having their falling out over medical disputes and personal information, they go and they get Randy Shelton, who was Kawhi's trainer, his personal Tim Grover, as he put it in the episode in 2017. And they tell him, we're going to hire you if Kawhi comes to this team.

[Greg Cody]

Tim Grover is Michael Jordan's trainer, famously so just the guy who's working on Kawhi's body. Forgive me for offering the contest. The most famous sports trainer there's been is Tim Grover, Michael Jordan's trainer.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. So I'll just take it chronologically because they recruit kawhi in 2017. They hired this assistant GM, Mark Hughes, who is also a former San Diego State guy. They sent Mark Hughes to talk, allegedly to Randy Shelton more than a dozen times. They promised him a job. Lawrence Frank allegedly talks to Randy Shelton, promises them a job. And what is not, not so clear until now is that Uncle Dennis is being used as Randy Shelton's agent. And so we have Randy Shelton's contract. There's this dispute going on in LA court. It's headed to private mediation right now. The Clippers, of course, deny everything. Randy Shelton does the opposite. But we have this document that shows that Uncle Dennis is the representative, the listed representative on Randy Shelton's contract on his extension now into 2021. Right. And so what does that mean? It means that after the NBA investigated the Clippers and Uncle Dennis for Capstone convention and all this stuff in 2019, they were still directly doing business with the guy, I am told, in order to get him money directly via the commission on the trainer that they shouldn't have been talking to when he was in San Antonio. Spur associated employee of Kawhi Leonard.

[Greg Cody]

Are you guys, Are you guys following this? You basically have a trail that leads back to Ballmer trying to get to Kauai. Since 2017, the most powerful sports owner there is allegedly trying to do everything inside of this to ignore what are understood rules of the sport. Cuz he doesn't have to respect rules of the sport if there are no legal consequences to not respecting rules of the sport. Again, all alleged.

[Pablo Torre]

But the thing that I keep on juxtaposing this against Dan is the idea that Steve Ballmer in the present tense is saying now in this other lawsuit filed by 11 aspiration investors that, that he did thorough due diligence on aspiration. And of course we have documentation, the email chain, the privileged information with Ballmer's chief investment officer and his lawyers and aspirations lawyers that show that, oh, wait a minute, he did this in an insanely fast timeframe at the founder of Aspirations urging. And now Steve Ballmer says that I did thorough due diligence and still I got scammed. Right. And so all of this is to show that when Steve Ballmer does thorough due diligence, he does it thoroughly. He does it years before it's even able to go get Kawhi Leonard. And so then you mentioned the voicemail, right? It takes us to another lawsuit that was filed and this one got dismissed because Johnny Wilkes was the man who filed this suit is the high school basketball teammate of Dennis Roberts and Uncle Dennis. And he was saying, I was promised two and a half million dollars by Jerry west to bring Kawhi Leonard to the Clippers. And of course he didn't have a written contract. That's a through line in the story of Johnny Wilkes in this case. But here is the voicemail that Jerry west leaves Johnny Wilkes that illustrates how much of a full court press of thorough due diligence the Clippers have been doing. This one from 2019.

[Greg Cody]

I can't believe you got this.

[Pablo Torre]

This is Jerry calling. You know, I really want to thank you a lot for, you know, trying to help. I heard this morning that everyone over in the Lakers camp think they're going to get him. I just find that hard to believe that he would want to go to that show where he would not even be, wouldn't get his name in the paper and he wouldn't be the face of the franchise. That's for sure. He might be the best player on the team, but I hope things are well and well again. I really, really appreciate everything you've done.

[Greg Cody]

Jerry west as the logo and a Laker calling the Lakers a shit show. And the recruitment of Kawhi Leonard, it's like the fifth most interesting thing in this episode if I had to rank it. And I found it super interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And we have texts between Jerry west and Steve Ballmer who's being Kept updated by Jerry west about all of this. This is Jerry west, by the way, texting Johnny Wilkes, the plug for Dennis Robertson. Just wanted to thank you for your help. If he would go to the Lakers, he would be LeBron's caddy, right? So this is head to head, Lakers versus Clippers. The Clippers see this as existential. They need Kawhi Leonard to save. Doc Rivers would later say, if we didn't get Kawhi Leonard, we shouldn't just move the team to Seattle, okay? And he said, I meant that, it was a joke, but I meant that that's the stakes of this for the Clippers. That's why Steve Ballmer is putting all of this money in. And Jerry west, by the way, who's a former, of course, executive with the warriors, who was famed for his recruiting there. Dennis Wong, who was the co owner of the Clippers, Steve Ballmer's college buddy, the loan limited partner he has on the team, who's come up in this series before as another aspiration investor. A guy who on this whole scheme, according to our reporting, he's the guy who says we gotta get Jerry west. And Jerry west is deployed to do this. Okay? And so it's Steve Ballmer, it's Lawrence Frank and then this array of guys, Jerry West, Mark Hughes, they're reaching out to Johnny Wilkes, to Randy Shelton. And it takes us, by the way, to the present tense, when four year extension is the announcement for Lawrence Frank.

[Greg Cody]

Can we stop there? Can we stop there for a second, guys, and sort of absorb that in the middle of this scandal and Pablo's showing you the documentation that allegedly links Lawrence Frank very completely. It's meticulous, it's got addresses on it on how it is that the circumvention is happening. How it is that Kawhi Leonard out of Nowhere takes a $9 million discount. Lawrence Frank, after that disaster of a press conference before the season, signs an extension. And that could look like, oh, I got to keep this guy on my side, he knows everything. Like I, I've got to keep paying this guy to make sure that he doesn't tell anybody anything that links me to anybody if I need a fall guy a few years from now.

[Pablo Torre]

And that's not abstract conjecture, that is NBA executives telling me they view Lawrence Frank's extension as quote unquote, Bulmer Ballmer hush money. As it seems like maybe someone with lots of money trying to disrupt my Internet connection here. Do we have, do we have that though, Dan, the Lawrence Frank presser? Because I just want to make clear, like Lawrence Frank got asked about this stuff once. No one else wants to talk about this, but he got asked about it at media Day. And here was what he said about the rules. We haven't learned anything more than we have back in September. And to be honest with you, it doesn't impact anything we do. We know it's out there. We know at some point there'll be a decision made. We very much feel the same thing that we told you back in September, that we're on the right side of this. And then whenever they make the decision, they make the decision, but it really doesn't impact anything we do on a daily basis. So the part that I have not talked about yet until this part of the timeline, right, we're going back in time to 2017. We're also finally getting to the post aspiration era. Aspiration. Keep in mind, bankruptcy filing, right? They owe Kawhi Leonard $7 million according to the paperwork that was filed with the government. He is a creditor. And so what's interesting is that aspiration collapses. They owe him $7 million. And Kawhi Leonard signs this extension in January of 24. Right? January 24, he signs a sub max extension. He leaves money on the table. Dan, that's what you were just alluding to. And the question is, why would this guy who has extracted money via Uncle Dennis, as much as anyone has ever seen before in pro sports, at every possible edge, why would he take a discount? And what we show in this episode is that perhaps coincidentally, I guess, three new LLCs are created with Uncle Dennis as the representative, as the manager, the guy on the paperwork in the week before that. And so our investigation, when you say aspiration is just the start, this is what I mean. It is documentation and signals everywhere in a pattern. By the way, that starts with Randy Shelton, who started KL2 Performance LLC in 2017. Let's not forget that that was the first of the KL twos into now January of 24 with KL2RIFC. KL2RIFC Real Estate LLC. And all of this stuff is signaling that this story in many ways is just starting. Can you believe that the NBA cares about it?

[Amin Elhassan]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Greg Cody]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Greg Cody]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Greg Cody]

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[Pablo Torre]

Don LeBatard Greg, how's your birthday going so far? I invented it.

[Stu Gotz]

It's going fantastic. My wife and I are staying home tonight. We're watching the debate on tv. We're going to do something special for baby. It's a. It's a nice day for me so far.

[Pablo Torre]

Stugarts. That sounds like a. Not a super nice night. The debate. Old people love that shit. Yeah.

[Stu Gotz]

That'S exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Old people do love that shit. And I'm old now.

[Pablo Torre]

I can't deny it anymore. Now this is the Dan Lebatar show with the stugats.

[Greg Cody]

Can you believe that part? Okay, just understand when Pablo is doing eight installments of this, I. This was the first episode where I was like, wait a minute. The original story was shocking. Wait, this is going to get a lot worse than this. Like, it's going to be more than just $48 million for a no Joe, no show job. It's also going to have Kawhi taking 9 million in discounts that we can chronicle. Because God knows how many places some of this could have been existing. If the world's richest sports owner is trying to conceal from everybody in a meticulous fashion that he's not going to play by the NBA's rules, because how are you going to touch him if he can do it creatively? Like, I really was shocked as I was listening to this to be like, wait a minute. Aspiration can't be the tip of the iceberg. It has to be the iceberg.

[Pablo Torre]

But here's, here's the thing that keeps on happening to Steve Ballmer and Lawrence Frank, right? So they keep trusting people to keep a secret that they care about very, very deeply, which is NBA rule breaking. And so they trust Randy Shelton, who sues them in court. They trust Johnny Wilkes, who sues them in court. They trust aspiration, which is now blown up, of course, in court. And there is one document here, right? So the question has always been, you know, if you're going to play ahead the game here, like, who's the fall guy? And I think the order on the league is Lawrence Frank would be the guy who has a four year extension. He has the alleged hush money. He has a payout if anything happens to him. Okay, but the question is, what touches Steve? And so at every step here, what I'm doing in 2017 and on is showing you Steve Ballmer was in the loop. He was authorizing this. Lawrence Frank, your president of basketball operations does not do things rogue. He does it at your authorization. And so there is one document that I have been told about by multiple aspiration sources. Okay. And this is the part where it brings us back to aspiration in the present tense. Because there are two reasons why I'm in this prison of reporting. One is the bankruptcy filing of aspiration, which revealed KL2 Aspire LLC. The other one is the fact that Joe Sandberg, the co founder of Aspiration, one of these guys that Steve Ballmer, trusted, who he realized later on too late, I shouldn't have trusted this guy to deceive the NBA. That guy got arrested by the FBI and is awaiting sentencing. He has a hearing in April. And what I'm told by multiple Aspiration employees is that the reason Joe Sandberg got arrested, the domino that tipped all of this stuff over, that started a federal investigation that finally got Steve Ballmer out of the Aspiration business, was because there was at least one whistleblower inside the company who went directly to the federal government and submitted, presumably in writing, presumably under penalty of perjury, a complaint. And that complaint was the roadmap to get everybody else who committed criminal acts actually in trouble. And the question that has been raised to me over and over again, this is important. The thought is, did that whistleblower, under penalty of perjury, in writing, mention Steve Ballmer and circumventing the NBA salary cap in writing? Did they put it into that complaint that started everything? Because if that document exists, that is the closest thing you could ever have to a smoking gun on letterhead under government supervision. And if that exists somewhere, then the NBA cannot possibly say this was a rogue president of basketball operations. This was from the very top with the richest man in sports, Pablo.

[Dan Le Batard]

Will anyone have the guts to ask.

[Pablo Torre]

The commissioner about this at All Star Weekend? I don't think so. I don't. I mean, I've been. Look, I've been canvassing media members, sadly. Dan, like, again, thank you, Dan, for paying for the reporting, for having me on the show. I have back channel to lots of other people with shows, and they don't want to touch it because they don't get it, because they think nothing's gonna happen. Because they're like, wake me up when the punishment comes. And I'm like, the whole point here is to use journalism in public, to hold accountability up as a goal for everybody to still strive for. Waiting for the NBA to punish this. You're waiting for the system that enabled it to punish itself. Why would anybody expect them to do anything they didn't have to do? And so all you can do as to your question is ask questions. But I don't think people really are in the mood for doing that. That's the shame of it.

[Greg Cody]

Well, let Me ask the group here, because I don't know if it's a founding principle of Pablo Torre. Find out necessarily, but it's certainly become one of its ideals as it's gone on. Pablo is tweeting that he's committed to using journalism to doing something that feels increasingly impossible. Holding billionaires accountable. And this is the richest one of all. But I do feel like the room is bored. I feel like the room on the details of some of this, I feel like everyone is like, oh, wake me up when there's a punishment.

[Stu Gotz]

I'm not the least bit bored, but. But it's very overwhelming. And that's why other podcasts don't want to touch this, because it's dense, it's complicated. But the thing that, that I can't get out of my mind is the idea that Steve Ballmer can't be the only billionaire owner in the NBA or in sports in general, who has invented.

[Greg Cody]

This kind of stuff. This is really hard to prove, though. Okay, let's prove it once before we prove it with everyone. What this lays out, though, and this stuff is really, really difficult to document. Imagine how much, how hard it must be to keep, to show information that Steve Ballmer, with that power and that money, does not want seen by anybody, his fellow owners least of all. Because this isn't a crime. It's just a shame that will make him someone who wants to win so badly that he's willing to cheat like that. He's willing to cheat in a way, allegedly, that Pablo's got not only receipts on, but timeline that is super, super incriminating in just appearances, in just optics. But it's really hard to pin down what would be identifiable proof. The way he's laying it out, though, and he's done an exceptional job. Sampson and Amin have been exceptional, helping put the framework and the nuance around how it is that it really works in the halls of power. Because they've been close to these halls of power. What you're doing, Pablo, I think, is so thick that it is hard to consume. But he's the only place that the information is coming from. And I see people going there in hundreds of thousands because they do want it. Why don't more want it? Why don't most want it?

[Pablo Torre]

Because the cost benefit analysis, what you cost, what you risk, what you lose is access. You lose the ability to be protected legally, potentially, depending if you, whether you know what you're talking about or not. You also lose favor with, frankly, the NBA itself. Right? Like All Star Weekend's a party. I get it. I loved All Star Weekend. It's the biggest holiday in the NBA calendar. To be the turd in the punch bowl is not what I want to be. It's why, by the way, Amina Hassan is here doing like Arnold Schwarzenegger impressions. It's why David Sampson, his eyes are degrading and he has to get increasingly strong glasses because I'm forcing him like a lab rat to read documents, which he loves. But to do it on camera in front of everybody to see like how people actually talk when presented with evidence. I mean, Dan, the thing about this story, the reason why this has been one of the most trafficked episodes we've done on the show so far, is simply because people are realizing there is a way that the NBA media talks about this stuff in group chats, privately, throughout a bar. They all talk about it All Star Weekend this weekend. You can guarantee they're going to be whispering about it, but they wouldn't dare take the effort to report it out and risk something in public. And there are some exceptions here and there. And I welcome them to jump into the pool because the water's been warm for a while. But that's the difference. Do you want to know the truth or do you want to know what the apparatus is telling you you should stop asking questions about because is it really going to get punished anyway? That's the problem.

[Greg Cody]

The question of the group here, because I am curious about this, right? Joe Rogan is one example, makes or made an entire empire out of believing in conspiracies and it being profitable. Then presented with the Epstein actual one. Now that's one that he doesn't quite believe in the way that he believes in all the ones that didn't have any proof. What's happening here with this as a conspiracy? Because it is the rarest of things to have a reporter digging in on this kind of documentation, contracts, emails, texts, like it's. It's hard work. So what's happening when the conspiracy is presented to you? Why wouldn't the entirety of the media grab that? Is it that much of a cabal? Like, is the whole thing that compromised that what Pablo is saying is true? I don't believe that that can be true, that NBA media is so interested in protecting its economy that it doesn't dare touch this. I believe NBA media looks at this and says, I can't do it. It's too much, it's too sprawling. I can't do the reporting on this. It's too hard to do the Reporting.

[Stu Gotz]

I mean, most sports journalists are lazy because they think of what they're covering is the toy store. And Pablo is exactly right. This should be a much bigger story in the other media than it is. It should be the overarching story of an All Star weekend hosted by of all teams, the LA Clippers. But it might not even be touched because we'd rather write the fun feature about women.

[Greg Cody]

I don't think it's lazy though. I think it's too. It's just too hard to.

[Stu Gotz]

Daunting. It's too daunting.

[Amin Elhassan]

That's.

[Pablo Torre]

That's fair. I want to be fair about this, right? So the reason why we do this, in fairness to every other media member in the NBA who's like, look, I just want to cover the games, man. I want to talk about how all of this is shaping up on the court, right? And I'm okay with that because on some level that leaves this niche to me. That's why we are distinguished in comparison. The thing that I urge people to realize though is that, that this is like a true NBA crime story. That is a conspiracy. That's not a conspiracy. This is the story of someone for whom money is no object and rules prevent him as the richest man in sports, a guy with 140, $50 billion, from just spending in the way that he thinks he should be able to spend. And there are rules against that. Do rules matter in the NBA? Do they matter in society? Do they matter in government? This is part of why I care about this stuff. It is because sports are a metaphor, but they're also reality. It's reality because the question of. And Greg raised a good question that I've heard a lot. Could there possibly be other owners who do something similar? What I've always said is that this is a function of degree. No one has the ability to buy the rest of the MBA combined. This guy does. No one was the CEO of the foremost monopoly in America, Microsoft, when the American government's antitrust department was coming after them for monopolistic behavior and anti competitive practices. That was Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer didn't give a shit about the rules around competition when it came to the actual federal laws. You think he cares about the NBA salary cap when he thinks that the whole might makes right. Great man theory of, Of. Of capitalism is I have the most money. You're preventing me from being as deservedly great as I already am. Keep in mind, dude was punished for capture convention with DeAndre Jordan in 2015. That was another team sponsor Lexus. Okay. Punished. 2019, investigated for cap circumvention with Kawhi Leonard. Related directly to some of the stuff we're talking about, which the NBA apparently either saw or didn't see, both of which are kind of embarrassing. Right? With Randy Shelton, with Johnny Wilkes. That's 2019. And now, of course, we come to the third CAP circumvention investigation in his tenure related to stuff that they already got cleared for because the NBA didn't really look into it that hard, or so it would seem. And now on top of that, you have Randy Shelton's lawsuit, you have Johnny Wilkes lawsuit, and you have 11 aspiration investors who are alleging that this dude aided and abetted fraud. And I'm not saying that he did. I'm merely saying in totality, this is how documents shake loose. And it can be really boring to read a bunch of documents. But I guarantee if you see the timeline unfold, and we will make a master timeline for everybody, I promise you, in the next couple weeks to make it very, very easy, as easy as we can. When you see it all in order, you realize this is an insult to your intelligence as a sports fan. And it's also really funny because they tried to get away with it. And that's the needle we're trying to thread.

[Greg Cody]

You saw the game winning play once.

[Pablo Torre]

But have to replay it three times on the way back to the hotel. Because some moments don't end at the buzzer. Life's a trip. Make the most of it. At best Western. Book, direct and save. @bestwestern.com.

[Greg Cody]

Don LeBatard Surely every time you're watching this, you recognize that your wife is laughing, that she marri. She married Larry David.

[Stu Gotz]

I. I do. Yeah. One of the great characters in the history of television, in my humble opinion. And. And to my credit, my personality.

[Greg Cody]

In my humble opinion, followed by to my credit, amazing.

[Stu Gotz]

My personality just amazing. Predate Curb youb Enthusiasm Stugats.

[Greg Cody]

Oh, wow.

[Stu Gotz]

I'm not gonna say Larry David patterned himself.

[Greg Cody]

You copy? All right, put it on the poll, please. Juju. Did Greg Cody copyright being an asshole long before Larry Davis.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Dan Le Batard]

Going to the journalist element of it. Like it. It is more complicated for these local media members who cover individual teams when they go out to All Star Game to ask these questions, because for them, they're looking for job security. Right. In a media landscape that's shifting the way that it is, do you want to be the troublemaker? Do you want to Be the, the, the person who's asking the tough questions when you're making your money off of the team that you cover, giving you information, and they're, they're your sources. And now they might be looking at you asking those questions as, who knows, maybe they're trying to, to cover up similar types of things as we're talking about. Like all of these owners and all of these general managers are looking for potential shortcuts to win. Do you really want to be the person that now potentially loses out on sources because of that? And in this specific landscape where journalism already isn't being funded, why are you going to join the fray of the sort of outcasts of the league?

[Greg Cody]

Pablo the thing that I think, though, was most revelatory in an episode that has an assortment of revelations in it is tying all this back to 2017, like, putting the scent out there of, oh, the world's most powerful rich sports owner has wanted something badly for eight years. Yeah, Jeremy was talking too long. It was way too long. It's always too long.

[Pablo Torre]

I relate.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thought you wanted us locked in, Dan.

[Pablo Torre]

That, that, that part, Dan, the whole, like, this goes way back and Steve Ballmer has every resource to do it. I mean, this is where the NBA, right, as an encore thing. If you're a fan of the spurs, let alone the spurs front office, if you're a fan of the Raptors, let alone a member of the Raptors front office, you're watching, and I've heard from those camps already, you're watching this episode and you're thinking, how is there not some compensation that we are due because of how the Clippers did this, because they sent emissaries out with one job years before this guy was a free agent when he was under contract specifically, like, it's just, it's, it's. When I say it's like a mockery of the rules, I mean that both, like, yes, this is textbook, like, bad corporate behavior. It's also a mockery in the sense that it's really funny. Like, this guy. All the characters here are ridiculous. They're ridiculous people. Randy Sheldon, the trainer is talking about, he wants to make Kawhi Leonard a human avatar, like the movie Avatar. Johnny Wilkes has this YouTube channel that no one's noticed in which he's offloaded all of these scraps of evidence. And he's like Uncle Dennis, high school teammate. He's a guy, you know, all of these characters, Lawrence Frank is out here trying to not lie in public while effectively and demonstrably lying. In public. And Steve Ballmer now is in hiding somewhere, and he's about to come out of his cave to say, welcome to the Intuit Dome, the richest palace in the history of sports. Welcome to this place that was built in ways that no one should ever know about, because all of it hinged on, can we get a superstar? Can we get Kawhi Leonard? And that brings us back to the fact that, oh, yeah, Kawhi's there, too.

[Greg Cody]

So tell Chris to cut up Jeremy's question, please.

[Pablo Torre]

There was no question.

[Dan Le Batard]

There was no question.

[Greg Cody]

This is what I want you guys to do, all right? This is what I want you guys to imagine, because I close my eyes sometimes when he's talking, and I imagine him strolling into the room spinning a parasol. It's just how it always starts.

[Dan Le Batard]

You sometimes look down and don't look at me while I'm talking.

[Greg Cody]

I close my eyes because he can't just come in and ask the question. Look, I can be long winded, okay? I can be, obviously, more so than ever these days, but it's always strolling in, spinning a parasol like, everyone's here to see me, right?

[Dan Le Batard]

No, he knows how to speak. We. Honestly, that question was toast before he asked that. We rattled him so much, they were staring at me saying, if you think your family before I even started. Think this is the time and place for you to ask one of your questions, go right ahead.

[Greg Cody]

Tony bailed. I saw Tony.

[Dan Le Batard]

Somebody, please.

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Dan Le Batard]

My issue is that my window closed because Pablo ended up talking for another seven minutes after.

[Pablo Torre]

I wanted to say something.

[Greg Cody]

Pablo Torre finds out is a pot. Is the podcast. Go. All the information is there. We haven't actually spoiled it. I did think the best thing in the episode. Amin's never been better with his impersonation.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, is incredible.

[Greg Cody]

It's the best he's ever been with his impersonation.

[Pablo Torre]

Peak. Peak. Amin is what you get in this episode. If nothing else, he has never been more expert and more on point as Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Greg Cody]

See you later, Pablo. Thank you.

[Dan Le Batard]

Tony and I were Mezador and Bane on the edge, waiting for.

[Pablo Torre]

Waiting to get this snap that ball.

[Greg Cody]

What I saw, though. This is what I saw on the front end, though. I saw Tony was blocking with Jeremy. Hit Tony. Tony turned sides in the middle as soon as the ball was snapped, I saw Tony become a pass rusher. When he started to play as an offensive lineman, he was lined up next to Jeremy. He's like, I don't like my team anymore. Now I'm A pass rusher.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, I went.

[Pablo Torre]

You go.

[Dan Le Batard]

And then. Oh, Mike has something too. So yeah, you guys go before me. I'll go on the back end of that.

[Greg Cody]

Nope.

[Dan Le Batard]

You think your family. You went on the back end and.

[Greg Cody]

Then we got you.

[Dan Le Batard]

It was like a 90.

[Greg Cody]

The quarterback, it was a costume change. I. He started in the. He started in the stance where he was going to drop back into pass blocking with Jeremy to protect the quarterback. They turned around, changed uniforms, ran home three points.

[Pablo Torre]

Dance you Dano.

[Dan Le Batard]

There were like three logical endpoints. Once he was like. And journalism isn't being funded anyways. I'm like, was looking for a yes. And from somebody.

[Greg Cody]

Oh, shit.

[Dan Le Batard]

Why did he do that? I do pull for him. No, not that time.

[Greg Cody]

We've got a holy trinity between Pablo, me and Jeremy of unlikable.

[Dan Le Batard]

And so again, I was likable until you guys positioned me as the question was a minute long.

[Greg Cody]

I was like, likable too, until we added an assortment of personalities that aren't stugot. And then it became less likable again, a holy trinity. Jeremy, you got to do work to be less likable than most, than me and Pablo combined. Because that was some real scolding of the NBA media. We just did. And then you came in. They're all just protecting their jobs.

[Pablo Torre]

I have the question.

[Greg Cody]

Do we want to relive it? Yes, please.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes. Do we have enough time, please? Journalist element of it like it. It is more complicated for these local media members who cover individual teams when they go out to All Star Game to ask these questions, because for them, they're looking for job security. Right? In a media landscape that's shifting the way that it is, do you want to be the troublemaker? Do you want to be the. The person who's asking the tough questions when you're making your money off of. Of the team that you cover, giving you information halfway through, they're your sources. And now they might be looking at you asking those questions as. Who knows, maybe they're trying to cover up similar types of things as we're talking about. Like all of these owners and all of these general managers are looking for potential shortcuts to win.

[Pablo Torre]

If you think that your family.

[Dan Le Batard]

Do you really want to be the person that now potentially loses out on sources because of that.

[Pablo Torre]

20 seconds left.

[Dan Le Batard]

In this specific landscape where journalism already isn't being funded, why are you going to join the fray of. Of the sort of outcasts of the league? Pablo, I'm gonna go ahead and go make a song. I'm gonna go make a song. I'll be back at the end of the next hour.

[Greg Cody]

I'm gonna go make another song for a sponsor. You guys cut him off, man. Yeah, well, he was clock.

[Pablo Torre]

It's sharper than that. What happened? You let him go for a minute and a half.

[Greg Cody]

I eventually just cut him off before whatever the dismount was. It's like whatever he thinks the parasol and the gymnastics routine is. I came in and took him at the ankles just as he was like, he's. I'm gonna nail the dismount.

[Dan Le Batard]

Roy adjusted his seat in the middle of it.

[Greg Cody]

I was like, man, this room is getting muggy. Cody's goatee is longer than it was when the question began.