Hour 1: Let It Fly with Kyle Boller (feat. Pablo Torre)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz – "Hour 1: Let It Fly with Kyle Boller (feat. Pablo Torre)"

Release Date: July 10, 2025

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1. Introduction and "Real or Fake Podcast" Game (00:00 – 04:38)

The episode kicks off with hosts Dan Le Batard and Stugotz engaging in the "Real or Fake Podcast" game, a popular segment where they present podcast names and challenge guests to determine their authenticity. Pablo Torre participates alongside Andrew Hawkins, contributing his insights to identify genuine podcasts from fabricated ones.

Notable Moments:

• Dan Le Batard (00:10): Introduces the game, highlighting its national popularity and the positive feedback received.
• Pablo Torre (02:04): Correctly identifies "Deuce is Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark" as a real podcast, showcasing his familiarity with the podcasting landscape.
• Andrew Hawkins (04:34): Reveals that "Hawk Journeyman with Andrew Hawk" is indeed a real podcast, surprising the participants.

The segment not only serves as an entertaining opener but also establishes the dynamic between the hosts and their guests, setting a lighthearted tone for the episode.

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2. Deep Dive with Pablo Torre: Investigative Reporting on the NFLPA (04:38 – 19:48)

The core of the episode features an in-depth conversation with investigative journalist Pablo Torre regarding his groundbreaking work on the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA). Torre discusses his podcast, "Pablo Torre Finds Out," and the significant revelations it has uncovered about the NFLPA's internal dynamics and its dealings with the NFL.

Key Discussions:

a. The Confidentiality Agreement and Its Implications (05:44 – 07:50)

Pablo Torre (05:44):

"Don Vannetta... has now done some more reporting... sources NFLPA NFL agreed to keep collusion findings secret."

Torre explains that a previously undisclosed 61-page document revealed a confidentiality agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA, aimed at suppressing pivotal findings related to collusion. This revelation has sparked outrage among players and cast doubt on the NFLPA leadership's integrity.

b. Leadership Crisis within the NFLPA (10:01 – 19:48)

Pablo Torre (10:01):

"JC Treader... was caught in those documents... trashing Russell Wilson and blaming him for not getting the full guaranteed contract that the NFLPA wanted."

Torre details how JC Treader, the former president of the NFLPA and current Chief Strategy Officer, orchestrated efforts to undermine players like Russell Wilson to avoid securing full guaranteed contracts. This strategy backfired, revealing a breach of fiduciary duty and self-interest over collective player welfare.

Andrew Hawkins (16:12):

"Justin Herbert could sue the league, could sue the union, could he not?"

Torre responds by outlining potential legal avenues for players affected by the NFLPA's actions, emphasizing the gravity of the situation and the possible legal repercussions for union leadership.

c. Potential Outcomes and Future Implications (17:22 – 19:48)

Pablo Torre (19:16):

"I think inevitably there'll be a change in leadership of the NFLPA... the smoke is too obvious."

Torre predicts significant leadership changes within the NFLPA due to the exposed malpractices. He suggests that figures like Lloyd Howell, the current executive director, may be ousted amidst ongoing FBI investigations and internal turmoil.

Andrew Hawkins (19:25):

"Did you answer my question about what the most seismic of the scenarios are?"

Torre cautiously speculates on the most drastic outcomes, including potential hearings in Capitol Hill and calls for Roger Goodell, the NFL Commissioner, to resign.

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3. Brief Discussions on NCAA and Salary Caps (26:35 – 35:56)

Transitioning from the NFLPA discourse, the hosts and Torre briefly touch upon broader sports administration issues, particularly focusing on the NCAA and the concept of salary caps.

Highlights:

• Deion Sanders' Call for a Salary Cap: The conversation delves into Sanders' advocacy for limiting player salaries in college football to curb the NCAA's financial excesses and promote fairness.

• Impact on Player Compensation: Torre and Hawkins debate the ramifications of implementing salary caps, considering both economic fairness for players and the financial strategies of sports organizations.

Notable Quote:

Stugotz (30:20):

"The tough part is it seems like the silent fight is that you're trying to keep the players from being employees."

This reflects the ongoing struggle to redefine player status and compensation within collegiate athletics.

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4. Lighthearted Banter and Advertisements (Throughout the Episode)

Interspersed between the substantive discussions are segments of friendly banter among the hosts and promotional advertisements. While these moments provide levity, they are largely skipped in this summary to maintain focus on the episode's primary content.

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5. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (35:56 – End)

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the intense discussions, particularly the implications of Torre's investigative reporting. They express anticipation for future developments within the NFLPA and the broader sports landscape.

Final Notable Quote:

Dan Le Batard (39:41):

"So wise. Hey, everybody, it's Mike down here in South Florida..."

Dan humorously references internal jokes and ongoing topics, wrapping up the episode on a familiar and engaging note.

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Key Takeaways:

• Investigative Breakthrough: Pablo Torre's reporting has unveiled critical issues within the NFLPA, highlighting potential misconduct and conflicts of interest among its leaders.

• Union Accountability: The exposure of confidentiality agreements and the suppression of players' rights signals a need for significant reforms within the NFLPA.

• Future Implications: The revelations may lead to leadership changes, legal battles, and a redefinition of player-union dynamics in professional football.

• Broader Sports Administration Issues: Discussions extend to the NCAA and the feasibility of implementing salary caps to ensure fairness and financial sustainability.

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Conclusion:

This episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz offers a compelling blend of entertaining segments and serious investigative discussions. Pablo Torre's insights into the NFLPA's inner workings provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the challenges facing professional athletes and their representation. As the sports world navigates these revelations, the show's hosts adeptly balance humor with critical analysis, making it a must-listen for sports enthusiasts seeking both entertainment and enlightenment.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats podcast.

[Stugotz]

Listen up.

[Dan Le Batard]

Time to think fast. Is this a real or fake podcast? It's a game that is quite literally sweeping the nation. I have not had such good feedback on something that we've created like this maybe since the musical. And we're going to play Real or fake podcasts with Andrew Hawkins and the host of Pablo Torre finds out. Pablo Torre. Pablo, let's begin with you. Let's see if you can find out if this is a real or fake podcast. Talk that Talk with Jerome Williams.

[Pablo Torre]

Talk the Junkyard Dog. The Junkyard Dog.

[Dan Le Batard]

Jyd. Talk that Talk.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm going to go fake because you would have to work in the Junkyard Dog into the title if it was a real podcast.

[Dan Le Batard]

I should have thought about that. It is indeed a fake podcast. But Talk that Talk is a good name.

[Stugotz]

That's a great name.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah. We kick it over to Hawk. False Start with Eugene Monroe.

[Stugotz]

False start. Ah, okay, I'm gonna go fake.

[Dan Le Batard]

That is fake.

[Stugotz]

Okay, good, good.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, is that the Eugene Monroe who's also an advocate for weed in the NFL?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, false start.

[Andrew Hawkins]

But I also think he led the league in fals. No, I don't think he would name his podcast.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, typically that's like a pain point for players. You don't get that level of lean in.

[Dan Le Batard]

We kick it over to Pablo. Deuced is Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark.

[Stugotz]

Oh my God.

[Dan Le Batard]

Deuce is Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark.

[Pablo Torre]

Talking about beer league legendary Burns Wild. I Will Clark, the guy who owed like millions of dollars while playing on. Anyway, that's a separate part.

[Dan Le Batard]

Different eras.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, ok. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Different eras.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm going to go. That's a fake podcast.

[Dan Le Batard]

That is a real podcast. Deuce is Wild with Eric Burns and Will Clark. I could not believe it.

[Pablo Torre]

They do. Okay, I have to find out about that.

[Stugotz]

Actually, I would love to get the. The platform as well. You got to add that to it. Give me the platform as well. Cuz that will. That will be able to mirror up the name to the platform. Like yeah, that's definitely something that company would call.

[Dan Le Batard]

One of the fake ones that we had was just available on Apple with Michael Beasley. It was very believable.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Wherever you your.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm saving that one in the holster. Let it Fly with Kyle Bowler. Hawk, is that a real podcast? Let It Fly with Kyle Bowler.

[Andrew Hawkins]

He did, he did throw it over a goal. He was on his knee from the 50 yard line. And Billock said that that's the reason that they were going to keep winning Super Bowls, because Kyle Bowler could throw it through the goal post from his knees. Imagine from the 50 yard line.

[Stugotz]

That feels believable because players like, think everyone like, oh, everyone knows I let it fly. Going to name it, name it that. I'm going to go with fake though.

[Dan Le Batard]

That is indeed fake.

[Stugotz]

Okay, I haven't seen a cowboy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Last final round here. Pablo. Hammered to left with Lance Burkman. Hammered to left with Lance.

[Pablo Torre]

An Astro grade Lance Berkman. Jesus, it's so specific.

[Stugotz]

Hammered to left. Could be Johnny Manzel's podcast too.

[Pablo Torre]

Be a good one.

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't want to tell you workshopping.

[Pablo Torre]

Before I'm, I'm, I'm going to go that that is real.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's fake. I just admitted to like a previous one. That would have been insensitive.

[Pablo Torre]

Burkman was a lefty.

[Dan Le Batard]

And finally, Hawk Journeyman with Andrew Hawk.

[Stugotz]

Oh, that's a tough one.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oh, no.

[Stugotz]

Terribly named podcast number one.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oh, not as bad as Paul Star.

[Stugotz]

Before I, before I give my answer, I will also say yesterday had a lot more Ebonics because I did see the clip.

[Dan Le Batard]

Say it with your chest. With John Henderson and Albert Hayes right there.

[Stugotz]

I could pick the fake every time because I felt like you were on Rap Genius picking out podcasts. Don't start nothing. Won't be nothing.

[Dan Le Batard]

Two days ago, I think with Horace.

[Stugotz]

Grant, I'm like, okay, these are.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hey, wait just a minute.

[Stugotz]

And Chris is like, yo, that's such a good one.

[Andrew Hawkins]

That is.

[Stugotz]

That is what they would call it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Watch out there now.

[Stugotz]

This is a real podcast.

[Dan Le Batard]

What we would call it.

[Stugotz]

It's a real podcast. Season two coming. We'll get back to that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you for playing. Is that a real podcast? Wow.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Pablo Torre finds out is a real podcast that does real journalism. Don Van Na is not someone that sports leagues want sniffing around their stuff. And Don Van Nada has now done some more reporting on Pablo Torres Report. And the ESPN headline today is sources nflpa NFL agreed to keep collusion findings secret. Pablo, your initial story, while a big story, did not resonate the way that I wanted to. And Mike Florio's accusation is that the media is partnered with the NFL and either downplayed the story or ignored the story. This now makes it so that I believe this story's about to get a lot larger, at least in part because now you've got the attention of the players saying, my union did what? So explain to me what you saw in this reporting and what it means.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, so Don Vannetta is obviously one of the great investigative journalists who has ever lived, you know, and Kaylan Kaller, who worked with him on this story, is also an excellent reporter. And so it has been interesting and amusing to see the floodgates open on delay in order of the things you reference. Right. Like Florio having that theory, I have a bit more of an Occam's razor theory, which is simply that people aren't exactly eager to co sign investigative independent journalism when it also jeopardizes the places they get their sourcing from their information, the way they eat. Maybe that's a separate but very similar way to the way that Florio put it. But the fact that Don has entered the fray has been incredibly, incredibly, I would say, both predictable because the story is real and also welcome because this is what I was hoping would happen when you lay out a roadmap in a 50 minute episode around a 61 page document that had never been released before. And so when Don says, by the way, there are a couple of amazing details in this by the way that just make this something that obviously is enormous. One of those details is that they discovered what I had alluded to, which is that there was an actual confidentiality agreement signed between leaders of the NFL and the NFLPA to suppress the document that I published. So there's an actual binding legal document that my episode, I mean, essentially sort of like broke open. Because now everyone, according to this reporting, and I want to quote Don here because I just don't want to smell my own farts quote, the confidentiality agreement kept the details of Droney's finding. That's the arbiter, his finding from the players until the Pablo Torre Finds out podcast published the full arbitrators report on June 24th. And then it goes on to discuss that this created a stir among the players. And to me, the next step in all of this, Dan, is like, what do the players think? What are they going to do about it?

[Andrew Hawkins]

What should they think? What should they think?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, another detail that was reported by Don that happened literally this week, I think puts to rest any ambiguity because the NFLPA under Lloyd Howell, the executive director who's at the center of the story we reported, has decided six months after he got the ruling to appeal the ruling. So just keep in mind everything that's happening here. So they suppress the ruling, I report the ruling, there's radio silence, Don Van Natta starts calling around and the NFLPA says, actually we're going to appeal the ruling. There's very important things in here. It is as possible a clear indication that they messed this up that you could get. They are appealing the ruling that they tried to bury because they realize how bad a look it is that they never did anything with it.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Well, I've got follow up questions here, but does this tie into the NFL now wanting $12 million in lawyer damages and fees because they're appealing a ruling that they agreed to keep confidential and not appeal?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. So the NFL had an agreement, again, a confidential agreement that we're not gonna do anything with. This gonna be suppressed. The NFLPA suddenly now, because of this public pressure, is saying, actually, we gotta do something about this. Sorry, guys. And the NFL is saying in response, well, then you owe us legal fees, $12 million, because our whole deal has been shattered. Now, of course, there is fine legal print that Florio has been reporting on pro football. Talk about whether that's actually plausible that they would get the $12 million. But now we're in the realm of a more familiar landscape of NFL versus NFLPA saber rattling. Frankly, this reporting has pushed the NFLPA to behave finally like a union again. And that is as indicting as anything you could argue.

[Andrew Hawkins]

That's what I was saying that I would be, if I was a member of. I would be unbelievably mad and asking all sorts of questions. So answer this for me, Pablo. What was the NFLPA's incentive in agreeing to keep all of that private?

[Pablo Torre]

So in the episode, we posit a number of theories that are validated and reported. And one of them is that JC Treader, who is the former president of the NFLPA as a player who became the chief strategy officer, who handpicked Lloyd Howell to be the executive director, was caught in those documents, in the discovery, the expedited discovery, the texts, the emails, the transcripts, to be trashing Russell Wilson and to be blaming him for not getting the full guaranteed contract that the NFLPA wanted. And instead what happened was, oh, it was revealed that the owners were found to have been in communication with each other and with the NFL around an attempt to prevent full guarantees from being given out. But what JC Treader said was used against the NFLPA in that arbitration proceeding. And so what does that mean? It means that JC Treader, who has designs, we also report to be the head of the union. And Dan, this is a job that's only been held by a handful of people. Literally. It's like Gene Upshaw and Dee Smith and Lloyd Howell. Right? There's a short list of Guys, a couple other names on there. It's a long term forever job that J.C. treader wanted, he wanted to suppress this whole thing because that made him look bad. That's one part of it. The other part, this whole thing started because of the demorris Smith regime, which was way more adversarial with the league. Lloyd Howell was the go along to get along guy, a corporate executive who was meant to be friendly, sort of restart relations with the NFL. So this was a win in our view, in my view, in Florio's view, for the previous regime of the union, not the current one, which came in with a whole different strategy. So it wasn't a win for them. And then I think third and most generously they thought that if we keep this quiet and do this thing with the NFL confidentiality, confidentiality agreement, of course now known, then this is going to pay off for the union long term. The problem of course is that that third most generous theory is also now repudiated by the fact that they just appealed the bleeping ruling. So already I just don't see any ground for this regime to stand on, even hypothetically, which is also kind of mind blowing.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hey everybody, it's Mike down here in South Florida. As the audience well knows, we've been celebrating a proper championship and we've been enjoying every minute of it. And by my side throughout that entire championship celebration has been Miller like, yeah, I wanted to make my championship time a Miller time. Because much like most of the fun memories I've had as an adult, Miller Lite has been right there by my side, supplementing every experience. Experience. And now that I'm about to travel during the summer, you can rest assured I'm going to be having plenty of Miller Lite along the way. Because that's what summer is all about. And since 1975, Miller Light has been right there. And all those memories for you listening right now, it's the 50th anniversary of Miller Lite. That's 50 years of great taste, great friends, great moments. Miller Lite great taste. 96 galleries. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Don LeBatard I went in the margins. I'm like, I'm like, you're moneyball of sex. I'm basically Scott Hatterberg. Stugats.

[Pablo Torre]

Lot of walks, but I'm on base.

[Dan Le Batard]

When it comes to sex. Other, other dudes, they can be Giambi. You know your role, you play well. I know my role. This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So take me through how average football players supposed to feel if your original theory is right, which is this was kept confidential because one of the people representing the players didn't want to look bad to the players or to anybody. So he ceases to represent the players and is now just representing himself.

[Pablo Torre]

It is a breach of, frankly, fiduciary duty. You are a union. Your job, in a legal, professional, ethical sense, is to represent your constituents, your players. And here you have one example, a concrete example, among others, of self interest personally overriding collective self interest, Right? And so this is unfortunately something that unions in America, and particularly this one in the NFL, have been battling for decades. But in this case, you have it so crystal clear. 4K quality documented that. I think if you're a player, frankly, if you're a player who signed a New Deal in 2021 when all this stuff was happening, it's about the off season of 2021, where guys getting guarantees. The answer turns out was no. Full guarantees. No. No one got them they should be contemplating what is our legal recourse. I've talked to lawyers now who are wondering when is the next shoe to drop going to be a lawsuit? When will. I mean, I don't get ahead of myself here because we're still reporting the story.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Justin. Justin Herbert could sue the league, could sue the union, could he not?

[Pablo Torre]

Justin Herbert, who is named in the text exchange between Michael Bidwell and Dean Spanos, Dean Spanos, the owner of the Chargers, Bidwell, the Cardinals owner, in which they are basically celebrating how they didn't give Kyler Murray full guarantees, which then helps Dean Spanos and the Chargers to not give Justin Herbert the full guarantees. Yeah, I would. I would imagine that guy logically would have a bone to pick, especially Dan. The extra layer of crazy on all of this is that those players that we've been naming, and this is Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray and Justin Herbert, the four big stars named in this thing, they were never told or shown what was in the document that was about their livelihoods until I published it. They had never heard it. The union had never told them. They never shown them. And so there is actively, I think, a would be grievance if they choose to pursue it. But also, clearly, the union is behind the scenes on fire right now in every figurative sense. And I think everyone's running around trying to cover their own ass.

[Andrew Hawkins]

It would make sense. I pointed out yesterday that Peyton Manning's original contract had zero guaranteed dollars in it. Brock Purdy's has 70% guaranteed dollars in it because of this. I've never seen Andrew Hawkins take more notes. And I don't think he's taking notes because he has any questions for Pablo Torre. I think it's because he's got questions for his friends and colleagues and union representatives. I see him taking a lot of notes here, but I don't think he wants to ask any questions here. I think he might have questions for others, though.

[Pablo Torre]

I welcome Andrew's thoughtful silence. Hawk's thoughtful note taking silently is meaningful just because all I actually want, Dan, is for players to hear this, to see the reporting, to make a judgment for themselves. Again, I am not here to say, trust me, I got this, period. I'm saying look at the document I published. Look at the interviews we did. Look at the reporting. Now look at Don Van Natta, look at Kaylin Koller, look at ESPN wading into the waters. Why is this happening? Just ask yourself, why is this happening? And consider what it costs. And by the way, as I believe Hawk is aware There is a CBA renegotiation coming up in 2030 and those things start years before, right? The setting of the table, the gaining of leverage, the angling in the public for what to do and how to win what the NFL owners are very loath to give, which is a percentage point of power. Right? That process, if, if time keeps on wearing on here, the players are actively losing money by not dealing with this because it feels inevitable that they're going to have to.

[Andrew Hawkins]

What do you believe will be the end point on this? And in your wildest dreams, the most seismic of scenarios that results from your reporting is blank.

[Pablo Torre]

I think inevitably there'll be a change in leadership of the nflpa. I just think that the smoke is too, is too obvious.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Wow, so you think that Lloyd Howell, his job will be affected by your reporting.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're going for that Peabody, huh?

[Pablo Torre]

By the way, this is a pretty like warm to like kind of lukewarm take. I think that's obvious at this point.

[Dan Le Batard]

The Peabody.

[Pablo Torre]

All of it.

[Stugotz]

All of it.

[Pablo Torre]

No, look, Lloyd Howell, man, separately, and we haven't even gotten into this part, there's a separate investigation into this whole other business that the NFLPA is embroiled in, which is called the one team sort of enterprise. This is the Tony Clark thing with the MLBPA and all that stuff. Lloyd Howell is under FBI investigation right now for a thing that I believe is actually less interesting than what we're talking about right now. That's how this sort of was set up was that was preceding my reporting. So I think Lloyd Howell inevitably cannot sustainably be doing this job. I think that J.C. treader, who would have been the successor by the way, in a very interesting sequence of events, right, Lloyd Howell has to be ousted. Who is the interim executive director? The logical successor might be the guy who installed Lloyd Howell with the title that had never before existed in the union of chief Strategy Officer, who's kind of the guy who's been sliding in the background, but we named it in our reporting. J.C. tretter, former Cleveland Browns center Right, that guy. The question is, would the players install him? If they see everything that we have reported and if it's not him, then the question is who then next and simultaneous to all of that is the fact that this 61 page document has the NFL owner's nightmare, right? Eight owners discovery texts, emails transcript Roger Goodell caught on emails with his chief, by the way, his chief lawyer. Then I will say this without too much of a spiking of the football here. Who then later, if you look at the timeline. Resigned from his job. This is Jeff Pash, the general counsel. The famous general counsel for the NFL stepped down, resigned after. Internally, we know this arbitration ruling proceeding was happening in which he was caught on email with Roger Goodell effectively doing the thing that gave the union the ammo, should they choose to use it to get leverage against the NFL. Dan, this is. I mean, when I say that this goes all the way to the top, I. I mean the NFL itself, when I, When I kind of tongue in, cheekily observed when I was with you last time. The NFL is monitoring the coverage of this story. What I say about this stuff that is not abstract, I can tell you without being too smelling my own farts about this. The stuff I've reported has been consumed by senior vice presidents in the league office dozens upon dozens of times, talking about refreshes. I'm talking about links being sent. I'm talking about conversations behind the scenes. This is something that is at the highest levels of the most important popular sport in America. And now we're seeing it on delay. Fifteen days later, all of it is leaking out.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Did you answer my question about what the most seismic of the scenarios are? Because you're saying it's pretty. You're saying just their leadership being blown out at the union, you're assuming that that's going to be so. So in the wildest of circumstances, where this story catches fire and all league partners are forced to report on it, what is the most seismic of hypothetical results here?

[Pablo Torre]

I will phrase it more journalistically responsibly. But if I was running the union and I got this ruling in which Roger Goodell was caught saying this stuff in coordination with the owners, the eight owners who were named in this and others, one might presume, I would be calling for Roger Goodell's job. Now, will that happen in real time? I doubt that. But that is actively what the leverage that the union might have had here is. They could have gone to Capitol Hill. They could have called for hearings. They could have made an enormous public display of. Look at what we're dealing with heading into our next CBA is that the leadership of the NFL itself is doing this stuff. And so I'm not predicting. I'm merely saying that this is actually concretely in the document part of the conversation.

[Dan Le Batard]

Wow, Pablo, first of all, you speak English beautifully. Where'd you learn that? I got people in this room that can't speak English as well as you can. Secondly, I'm kind of. I'm kind of disgusted at a Recent text exchanges, which is just us bartering. You ask me for contacts to help you find stuff out, and I'm just constantly pitching you stuff to find out. So I'm curious. Like, a lot of your friendships have devolved into people just treating you like chatgpt, right? And say, hey, find out about this.

[Stugotz]

Right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I mean, I've been. Here's the thing. I did an episode, the episode I loved, by the way, that we just did on Tuesday was about competitive bird watching. And I think it's one of our greatest episodes we've ever done, and nobody gives a shit. And so I am.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's true. I skipped that one. I skipped it.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God.

[Dan Le Batard]

Make me care about bird watching.

[Pablo Torre]

It has. It has blow jobs, jizz banging. It has a chase for 10,000 birds with a guy holding a Wilt Chamberlain, like, sign that says 10,000 on it in a jungle. It has.

[Stugotz]

And that's all just the text message exchange between Pablo and Mike. We don't even get into the bird watching it.

[Pablo Torre]

It's, it's. It's so good in a real way, but no one cares. And so I've been on Twitter bartering to Mike's point, and I'm like saying, everyone's saying, can you investigate Jeffrey Epstein? And I'm like, what about these birds, though? And. And so I've said, if everybody watches the bird watching episode on YouTube, I will investigate Jeffrey Epstein. So if that's what it takes. If that's what it takes.

[Andrew Hawkins]

What does everybody mean? Earth.

[Stugotz]

If everyone on earth, 1.6 billion listens.

[Dan Le Batard]

Later, that could be someone else's beat. Find out about the Chris Paul Lakers trade.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, basketball reasons. Yeah, I've been looking into that one. I've been sniffing around that one. But the birds want to talk about a scandal, man.

[Stugotz]

As a hawk, I'm interested. Absolutely.

[Andrew Hawkins]

We don't want to talk about your bird watching episode. Pablo Torre finds out, though, if you want more information about all of his curiosities, it is exceptionally popular. Thank you, Pablo. Good seeing you. Good talking to you. Take care.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you, guys. And Mike, I'll text you later.

[Dan Le Batard]

Don Lerd. Witty. We have a photo right here, if you can see. In this photo with my daughter, there I am pointing exactly to the point on the Stanley cup where it says, you suck ass, Stu. Right there. They engraved Juliet. Engraved. Yeah, they got it engraved right there. It says, chris Whittingham sucks ass. This is the Dan Levatar show with the stug.

[Andrew Hawkins]

What do you guys think about Deion Sanders saying that college football needs a salary cap.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, it is kind of heading that way. Curious. Like, I'm a little worried about Dion, to be honest. He stepped away for a little bit this offseason for health reasons. And I saw Big 12 media day and he was like drenched in sweat while no one else on the dais was. So I was like, I was watching that. I was a little concerned for Deon. He's had some health issues that he's kept pretty private. We know about the near foot amputation, but there's a lot of stuff going on in the ncaa and this is an organization that flatly does not win in court. Does not win. Which is why they've pivoted to Supreme Court. Senators, just give us full autonomy because we're not gonna win. And even now it's being challenged. I know Cassiano's has challenged something. The NCAA doesn't know how to read a room. That's never been their strength. This week. The expectation is this week or next that they're going to come down with an announcement in all likelihood to expand march madness to 70 plus teams. No one wants this. No one wants us. The only people that want this are the power conferences so they can make more money. At what point do you continue alienating your audience? No one. No one even likes the expanded field right now. First four.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Not.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not something that is hugely interesting. It's one of the few things that they got right in terms of like the perfect number. I'm really curious to see when they do get granted this. Because in hiring Charlie Baker, they knew exactly what they were going to do. They were going to back channel and politic their way to a win. And it's not even like they're doing the work. In fact, their most recent plan is because we'll let the big conferences self govern. Huh? You're gonna let the Big Ten and SEC make the rules for the Big Ten and the SEC while you just collect the money because you organize all the non revenue sports.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yes, is the answer to your question. Greed is gonna win at every turn. There is no amount of dilution that will get in the way of the greed. They will continue to be greedy at every turn, grab as much as they can and it will be several times beyond where the complaints are on all the dilution before they stop being people who just chase the money and the greed. They are not going to show moderation. They are not going to cut any of these things back. As long as the television dollars keep increasing, they will continue to dilute product Long past the complaints about diluted product.

[Dan Le Batard]

So you salary cap, conceivably your salary cap, does that cap a player's ability to make income on their name, image and likeness? Outside of the cap, you can have an endorsement deal. I know that Jeremiah Smith just signed an endorsement deal with Adidas. Does that count for the cap? I know that the school's gonna have the rev share but as we've even seen with executive orders, these things are gonna get challenged. Even their autonomy is going to get challenged. And if I may, this is a bipartisan issue. Hate for the NCAA reaches across the aisle. There are plenty of conservative judges that have ruled against the ncaa, more so even than than the progressive ones. So I don't really know how this is going to work for the ncaa. But what confounds me, Dan, is the supreme confidence and assertion that we're just headed here. It's going to be rev share, there's going to be some sort of cap. We'll figure out what we do with the non revenue sports. There'll be kickbacks along the way. There's going to be an nil clearinghouse. The conferences are going to govern themselves. This machine keeps moving. And if there's ever been a time for the sport for college athletics to be paused for everybody to figure this bleep out, it's right now.

[Stugotz]

The tough part is it seems like the silent fight is that you're trying to keep the players from being employees. And that is pretty much the thing that is going to continue to expand all the things that Deion and everyone's complaints are about. They have too much power, there's too much money, it just keeps going up. We need a cap is because they're going to do everything in their power not to call them employees. Right now they are essentially 1099s contractors year to year basis, which should prevent multi year contracts, which should prevent them telling you quote unquote how to do the services you're being paid for. And they're trying to dance around that. Because what comes with that, that like you know, is a cba. What comes with that is restriction. What comes with that is probably a lot of lawsuits from players and former players that now put you on the hook for injuries that have typically gone to the NFL and or nobody cared about because no one goes back and sues the university because my back is messed up for forever for those four years or my ankles are messed up or my joints or concussions. And they're trying and everything sense of their power to make it to where the public is going to yell, the players have too much power. Because in that version of it, it makes it a little bit easier of a process to say, hey, it's not us, it's them. They want it. This. We just want them to be able to do what they want. We're finally getting it right. That's not what the actual sentiment is.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Let me rewind some of this, though. The messenger on this is Dion. It is not surprising that Dion would want limits on the power of others. Dion is about Dion at every turn. And Colorado cannot compete with Texas and Ohio State when it comes to money. So Deion wants a cap. More interesting to me is the idea of a cap in general. Fans love a cap. Athletes would have no reason to love a cap. The baseball salaries are what they are, at least in part, because there's not a cap. Because the owners can't control themselves and they need a salary cap to control themselves. Because you see what happens when they collude and can't control themselves. Deshaun Watson gets guaranteed money because someone's desperate for a quarterback. And then all of a sudden, sudden, you get everything we've been talking about today. I don't think there should be salary caps. I understand why there are salary caps. The reason the owners cannot control themselves. If Jerry Jones needs a quarterback, he's going to outspend everyone else for a quarterback. If you don't have a salary cap, and that's the reason it exists, it's not for fairness. It's not for any other reason other than the owners want fixed costs. Like you don't understand the government advantages that these leagues have with their monopolies. When they can sit there and limit capitalism, they could limit that these people who are more valuable than the average person can have fixed costs in a draft and not have choices about where they work. When they have more choices than the average employee anywhere in employment under normal circumstances that don't have limits. But so that you understand why the salary cap exists, it's twofold. One, the owners can't control themselves, and two, the owners know how to always beat the players when it comes to collectively bargained partnerships, because they can do things like what we've been talking about for two hours here, where you get the confidentiality agreement from the head of the players union instead of the players union getting all of the information that they need.

[Dan Le Batard]

All too often, it's not just sports, it's capitalism for me, but not necessarily for the labor force, which I find curious. Danny White, who I Think is one of the more bright administrators in the sport, did a great job with ucf, is now at Tennessee. He spoke to Yahoo Sports and he's really one of the first administrators to invoke CBS collective bargaining agreement, which many schools may think opens up a can of worms. But this is what he told Yahoo Sports. In his model, college athletics would in fact not be employees of their schools, but a structure that calls for the creation of a national employment organization that partners with a players association, perhaps one already formed in the professional leagues. That's interesting, especially since the main revenue generator is, you know, football and the NFL and its PA has a free minor league system. Do they actually contribute something to the pot? That's something interesting. Modernize an improved ecosystem for football and men's basketball players, the two main revenue sports. Collective bargaining and employment status shouldn't be seen as negative terms. That's something he's going to run up against a lot of opposition from fellow administrators. I think there's a lot of people who think the same way that I do. We can go another three or five or even 10 years of this difficult environment or we can accept the reality and fix it. Right now, 10 years. I think we're all going private equity firms and super league anyways. Hawk.

[Stugotz]

I mean, it's going to have to separate because that's the other part of the cap. Where the other reason is teams and markets and franchises who might not have the same access to funds have to compete against each other. And it's just naturally harder even in the open market outside of sports. Think about any industry, the media industry. If said media company has way more money to pay talent, they'll always get the highest paid. And the guys that probably the guys and girls that bring in the most amount of money versus a smaller media company because we don't have the amount of money to pay the salaries that the big guys have. Right. Are we competing against each other? I guess indirectly. But in these leagues there's a literal competition against each other. And so there has to be a separation between the people who have and the people that don't.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Mike, do you have any information whatsoever on why it is that Wisconsin is suing the University of Miami over Xavier Lucas?

[Dan Le Batard]

So Wisconsin, number one, needs to get their own house in order because they have, they have recruiting violations that they need to worry about. And Big Ten has already sent out a press release whilst doing nothing. I think this is more about tone setting and trying it just in, in a private world, in, in a civil suit. I don't see a scenario ever in which Xavier Lucas leaves the University of Miami. I do know that for all their barking and they've done a lot of barking, which is also hypocritical because how'd you get one of your better volleyball players from the University of Miami, Wisconsin.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Are you covering your mouth right now? What happened?

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, people to hear that nobody would know who. There was an awesome volleyball player that happened to know. I know that we had an awesome volleyball player that found its way to. That found their way to Wisconsin on a second. Oh, my God, he knows. He happens to know. Come everyone come and listen. He happens to know. Well informed. Obviously you don't want to be sued ever. But I feel pretty good already with the precedent just with this Xavier Lucas case. And you can Google it for yourself that this one's kind of been done and dusted. I think this is more about trying to establish a precedent because it.

[Stugotz]

What happened.

[Dan Le Batard]

What happened is the argument is Wisconsin argues that they had a contract with the player that out of the other side of their mouth says, we don't have contracts with our players because they're not employees. It's weird because you're trying to enforce language that goes against your greater argument.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

He happens to know they want these things to be totally binding.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

Which I guess you can understand. There was another. There was another ad. I forget the name. Oh, it was the Ohio State athletic director that said we want a real market in the transfer market. Basically, we want to know what everybody is offering. So we can't be negotiated with without seeing the number.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

You can understand that is fair. This person's telling me a number that's.

[Stugotz]

Advent advantageous for the university for sure.

[Dan Le Batard]

Right. So we're going to do this with the ads and the coaches have some sort of portal where we see exactly what the offer is from another school or are we going to ruin what is a negotiation tactic across America? Do you mind pausing rules?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Do you mind pausing just so that Roy has enough room to do that?

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, my God. He knows.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Just. Can you just leave occasional pauses around the happens to know so that Roy can keep hearing something that appears to be tickling Tony like every time.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God.

[Dan Le Batard]

He knows.

[Andrew Hawkins]

The thing. The thing that I'm noticing every time is that Chris did that in his kitchen while not trying to not be heard by his wife who raw the.

[Pablo Torre]

Raw cut of that file.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I should grab the thing that I. The reason I'm laughing every time is that Roy plays it and I'm imagining Chris bent over, like behind the door, under the sink, trying to hide the echoing of his voice from his wife.

[Dan Le Batard]

So why. Basically, what Wisconsin is trying to argue is, is if you have some kind of nil deal, which also blows up their pay for play rules, because you're not technically supposed to have these things. If you have a deal with us, you shouldn't be allowed to change your mind and say, not for me. I want to go elsewhere. You can't break this. But they're also not employees. They're trying to enforce employee rules for people that aren't actually employees.

[Stugotz]

Got a 1099 contract.

[Dan Le Batard]

Exactly. Come, everyone. Come and listen. He was in his kitchen on his hands and knees.

[Andrew Hawkins]

He could smell. He could smell the. The dish rag Hiding from his wife.

[Dan Le Batard]

He happens to know.

[Pablo Torre]

Great Scott.

[Dan Le Batard]

He happens to know.

[Stugotz]

He happens to know.

[Dan Le Batard]

Gather, everyone. Get the children.

[Pablo Torre]

He happens to know.

[Dan Le Batard]

So wise. Hey, everybody, it's Mike down here in South Florida. As the audience well knows, we've been celebrating a proper championship, and we've been enjoying every minute of it. And by my side throughout that entire championship celebration has been Miller Light. Yeah, I wanted to make my championship time a Miller time, because much like most of the fun memories I've had as an adult, Miller Light has been right there by my side, supplementing every experience. And now that I'm about to travel during the summer, you can rest assured I'm gonna be having plenty of Miller Lite along the way, because that's what summer is all about. And since 1975, Miller Lite has been right there. And all those memories for you listening right now, it's the 50th anniversary of Miller Lite. That's 50 years of great taste, great friends, great moments. Miller Lite, great taste. 96 galleries. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you, or you can pick up some Miller Light highlight pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.