Hour 1: The Bad Faith Argument

Summary

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The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode: Hour 1: The Bad Faith Argument
Date: December 11, 2025
Location: Elser Hotel, Downtown Miami
Hosts & Guests: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, Tony Reali, Amin Elhassan, Zaslow, Kendrick Perkins, Mike Ryan, Pablo Torre (mentioned), others

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the unprecedented dominance of the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA, analyzing their historic run, how their success impacts the league's narrative and appeal, and the evolving dynamics of superstar team-building. Dan and the crew debate whether such excellence is ultimately good or bad for basketball, scrutinize the myths around "marketable drama" versus "sustained greatness", and use OKC as a launchpad for wider conversations about sports storytelling, fan engagement, and organizational strategy. Throughout, the panel challenges each other's assumptions—sometimes in good faith, sometimes less so—with humor, stats, and the show's trademark irreverence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Notre Dame’s Preferential Playoff Access: Pablo Torre as Notre Dame

• Summary: Dan draws a parallel between Notre Dame’s new college football playoff advantages and Pablo Torre's position in his public spat with Nick Wright.

• Quote:

  “In the argument of Pablo Torre vs Nick Wright, Pablo Torre is Notre Dame. He’s right, but he’s going to look and sound like he’s wrong.” — Dan Le Batard (02:19)

• Context: Sets up a theme of being correct but unpopular, foreshadowing the later OKC discussion.

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2. Oklahoma City Thunder’s Historic Dominance

• Opening Stats & Context (04:08–08:52)

  • Dan:
    Describes OKC’s current run as the most dominant 25-game stretch ever, even surpassing Miami’s 27-game win streak in terms of point differential. Wonders aloud if this type of one-sided excellence is bad for the NBA:

    “I don’t think it’s good for the sport... It’s an entirely different thing to have it be a small market team that’s interesting only because of its excellence. There’s nothing else interesting there.” (04:24)

  • Reali & Amin:
    OKC’s blowout wins are like “an AAU team of D1 players against a church league” (Tony Reali, 05:55).

  • Zaslow:
    Marvels at OKC’s potential to win both the NBA Cup and the most regular-season games ever:

    “We could circle back... I’ve never seen a team that just doesn’t lose...” (06:32-07:27)

  • Tony Reali’s Stat of the Day:
    OKC has led by 20+ points this season for more minutes than they've trailed at all:

    “The Thunder have led by 20-plus points more than they have trailed...” (07:51)

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3. Is Absolute Excellence Good or Bad for Basketball?

• Dan’s Devil’s Advocate:
  Argues that dominance, especially by a small market team with defense and no “superteam drama,” is a tough sell:

  “I’m going to have a hard time making basketball defense interesting to the average person.” (08:52)

• Tony Reali:
  Pushes back, calling OKC a “palate cleanser” and insisting their fun, fast-break defense is entertainment:

  “They play an interesting, fun style of basketball. I don’t think the market thing really matters. What matters is when people watch these guys play.” (09:32) “Everyone claims they love parody. Parody is bullshit...the biggest light...is if you have a dominant, nobody can beat them. It’s Rocky 4 all over again.” (10:17)

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4. NBA Cup & the ‘Meaningless Game’ Prediction

• Amin’s Hot Take:

  “The Oklahoma City Thunder will not win the NBA Cup...the NBA Cup final is the 83rd game, and the league has determined...that not only does that not count towards your record, but any stats accumulated in that game do not count.” (11:14)

• Dan:

  “I think Dagonal is going to take a dive.” (11:43)

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5. OKC’s Team-Building Masterclass & the Sam Presti Effect

• Amin Elhassan:
  Attributes OKC’s success to “the best run organization in all of sports” and details how Sam Presti’s savvy—through trades (involving the Clippers, etc.), drafts, and patience—built the team:

  “Sam Presti is...the sharpest strategist in all of front office.” (17:18)

• Tony Reali:
  Compares Presti’s long game to “Richard Pryor in Superman 3...taking a fraction of a penny on every transaction” until it became a fortune (20:15).
• Kendrick Perkins:
  Praises the “homegrown” recalibration:

  “Sam Presti...was like, ‘I’m in a perfect position to usher in a new blueprint of how teams can go going forward.’” (18:46)

• Discussion of Potential Big Trades:
  Hypothetical about trading Holmgren and a first for Giannis, with talk of OKC’s financial prudence (22:22–23:32).

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6. Narratives, Drama, & Personality in Team Sports

• Dan:
  Asserts that OKC lacks the controversial or magnetic personalities that fuel widespread attention:

  “Shea Gilgeous Alexander...not spokesman for the league type...You're not going to get anything else...other than your play.” (37:23)

• Tony Reali:
  Counters that likability and even a “quiet” dominance can still engage fans, citing Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, and Michael Jordan as examples (37:28).

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7. Good Faith vs. Bad Faith Arguments

• The crew repeatedly calls out bad faith arguments—particularly regarding the lack of competitive close games due to blowouts and three-point shooting.

  “You say that we did see a competitive seven game series...But...somebody got hurt by double digits...That's not a good faith argument." (25:24-25:40)

• Mike Ryan:
  Points out that OKC’s postseason stories lack signature, memorable moments compared to other great champs (33:54).
• Dan:
  Expresses concern that the era of three-pointers and blowouts could erode the classic “buzzer-beater” moments that anchor the NBA’s mythology (33:56).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Le Batard:

  “Not only is it not good to win with defense, not only is small market generally rejected...for 15 years we’ve been trained on super teams. It’s not one guy. It’s not one guy.” (16:01)

• Tony Reali:

  “Everyone claims they love parody. Parody is bullshit. Everyone locally loves parody because, like, oh, my team has a chance. But the reality is, nationally, nationally, no one’s interested because, like, oh, so anyone can win. All right, I’ll call me when it’s important.” (10:21)

• Amin Elhassan:

  “The Clippers are giving their first rounder to the Thunder this season and they, they might have the number one pick. And that’s on top of the five other picks they sent. Right? This is. And Shea, Gilders, Alexander..." (18:07)

• Kendrick Perkins:

  "Sam Prezi was playing...he was looking at the, at the landscape of basketball being like, okay, I think the blueprint for the super team, the Big Three, is kind of dead. I want to build this thing another way...” (18:46)

• Tony Reali (on sports fandom):

  “People want to see Goliath either destroy someone or they want to see David hit him in between the eyes with a slingshot. That’s what this whole thing is built as.” (34:23)

• Mike Ryan (on narratives):

  “The Thunder found a way to go to Game 7 of the NBA Finals without those super memorable moments.” (34:18)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:42 — Show content begins after sponsor reads.
• 02:42–03:01 — Dan’s Notre Dame analogy re: Pablo Torre and internet narratives.
• 04:08–08:52 — OKC Thunder’s historic dominance breakdown.
• 07:51 — “Stat of the Day”: Thunder have led by 20+ more than they've trailed.
• 08:52–11:51 — Is OKC’s success a problem for basketball?
• 17:15–21:29 — Deep dive on Sam Presti’s team-building genius & OKC’s asset strategy.
• 22:22–23:32 — Hypothetical trade: Holmgren & Clippers pick for Giannis.
• 25:24–25:40 — Bad faith/good faith debate about playoff narratives.
• 33:54–34:18 — “No signature OKC playoff moments” discussion.
• 34:23–35:48 — Parity vs. dominance as the engine of sports drama.
• 37:23–38:28 — The challenge of marketing stars like Shea Gilgeous Alexander.
• Throughout — Numerous “Is this a good faith argument?” exchanges.

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Tone & Language

• Irreverent, witty, and at times self-effacing.
• Classic back-and-forth banter with persistent fact-checking and challenges.
• Wonderful mix of stats, storytelling, and comedy.
• Equal parts sports nerdery and big-picture cultural commentary.

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Summary for the Non-Listener

If you missed this episode, you missed a formidable breakdown of what makes (or doesn’t make) greatness compelling in team sports. Using the Oklahoma City Thunder’s historic NBA tear as a lens, Dan and the crew debated whether pure sporting dominance—especially in the absence of “superstar drama”—is healthy for basketball, and how much narrative needs to matter. The conversation highlighted the brilliance of Sam Presti’s asset management, the limits of parity as a draw, and concluded with a meta-analysis of what makes team and player personalities marketable in modern sports. Packed with stats, context, and classic “good faith/bad faith” sparring, it’s a quintessential Local Hour for fans who like their sports debate both smart and silly.

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Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Tony Reali]

Brought to you by State Farm Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Dan Le Batard]

This episode is brought to you by NBA on Prime this Tuesday at 8:30 Eastern, it's the Emirates NBA Cup Championship Game on Prime. This year's quest for the cup has been building to this the Championship game live from Las Vegas. Not a Prime member sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. The Emirates NBA Cup Championship Game this Tuesday at 8:30 Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com amazonprime for details. This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats Podcast.

[Zaslow]

This episode of the Dan Levatard show is presented by DraftKings. DraftKings. The Crown is yours.

[Dan Le Batard]

So this is a story from Dan Wolkin and Yahoo. Sports. After learning of Notre Dame's memorandum of understanding that grants the Irish preferential playoff access starting next year, athletic directors in other leagues are threatening to freeze Notre Dame out of future schedules. If you're not familiar with the contract language, I assume this is because Notre Dame is an independent and they don't have some of the deal terms that the conferences have. Notre Dame is guaranteed that what happened to them this year will not happen to them next year if they are in the top 12. And what I just realized, I don't know if you guys realized it. I don't know if Pablo realizes this in the storm of Internet noise that he's presently in. You guys do realize that in the argument of Pablo Torre versus Nick Wright, Pablo Torre is Notre Dame. He's right. But he's going to look and sound like he's wrong.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice (Goldbelly)]

Thanks.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's what's happening here, though. It's the thing. It's the self righteousness, it's the sanctimony.

[Tony Reali]

It's.

[Dan Le Batard]

You are, you are Catholic, but you are, you are journalistically pure and no one wants to hear it.

One thing we are not talking about, and we should be.

[Amin Elhassan]

I'm going to be haunted by that for a long time, aren't I?

[Dan Le Batard]

I worry Dominique had a worse one during that hour that I'm sure a lot of people see. If you guys can find about 10 minutes from the end of the segment. Absolutely stumbled through something that was twice as long as that Judas Foxworth. I don't want to go any more in this show without talking about something that's happening in basketball that simply can't get enough attention. And the droning excellence. This is something that Roger Federer suffered from, Pete Sampras suffered from. We want our sports teams to be great. We want to see our athletes be great, but not too great. Not too great. Not so great that we can't talk about drama and storylines because the Oklahoma City Thunder, defending champions, have just put together a 25 game stretch that has never been seen in the history of basketball. Not at the beginning of a season, at any point during a regular season. The Miami Heat did win 27 straight games. They did not do it this dominantly. OKC lost a game to Portland, has not lost any others. They beat Phoenix. Phoenix is a good team. They beat Phoenix last night by 49 points. They're beating everybody by a point differential. That makes this the most unprecedented dominant stretch in the history of basketball. I mean, I don't think it's good for the sport. It's one thing to have Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen and Dennis Rodman. It's an entirely different thing to have it be a small market team. That's interesting only because of its excellence. There's nothing else interesting there. There's no storylines, there's no drama. There's no any of the the noise nonsense that the basketball season feeds off during the regular season. There are no two bigger stories in the sport this year than all the stars are getting injured because the limits of the human body can't reach the way the game is being played right now. So there's way too much money, just injured and not playing. But the team that is playing is way too good, way too good to talk about, way too good to be interested. Interesting to the average basketball fan who just enjoys the superficial cotton candy of. Give me the dramatic storyline, Dan.

[Tony Reali]

This is. I look at it as a palate cleanser. Wow. Like we could talk about basketball with these guys. And by the way, they're injured too. That's the insane part about this. So did we. They. Exactly. They played a game about a week ago or so against Utah where Shay Gilas, Alexander, Isaiah Hartenstein, Alex Caruso, Isaiah Joe and lou dort all sat. That's a starting lineup in the NBA. That's a 50 win team. Starting lineup. They were favorited going in that game by 11 and a half points, Dan. They won it by 30. They're amazing no matter who else is out there. I watched that game last night and the only way I can describe it, and this is the part where fatherhood comes in handy because my child plays high school basketball and plays AU basketball. And when I was watching that game, I said, I know exactly what this looks like. This looks like an AAU when you have that one team where everyone has a D1 scholarship and they're playing against a team that's like their church put it together. And the idea that they can't bring the ball up the court. It's a turnover every single time. Layup, turnover, layup, turnover, layup. And I'm like, oh my God. I've never seen this in NBA on the NBA level ever.

[Zaslow]

I think they're super interesting. I do. Like, I don't. Yes, we, we had the, the 97 bulls and you had the 2016 warriors, but they would lose sometimes. I've never seen a team in the NBA in an 82 game schedule, by the way, I'm not looking so stupid for talking about winning 80 games this year. We could circle back to that if you want, Dan. But I've never seen a team that just doesn't lose. And think about this, they're in the semi final now of the NBA. They're gonna win the NBA cup. All right, so. So we're watching a team that is going to win the NBA cup, has a real good chance to win the NBA championship and might win the most games in the history of the NBA regular season. There's. And because the NBA cup's rather new, like there's never been a team that has done what Oklahoma City has the chance to do this year. Dan, can I give you a stat? So Tim Bontems from ESPN tweeted this out last night. You want to do stat of the day?

[Tony Reali]

Come on, come on.

[Dan Le Batard]

You waiting for start of the day? Start of the day.

[Mike Ryan]

Proper Toss.

[Dan Le Batard]

It is the start of the day, start of the day, start of the day it is the start of the day start of the day, start of the day it is the start of the day start of the day, start of the day it is the start of the day.

[Zaslow]

10. The Oklahoma City Thunder have led by at least 20 points for 264 minutes and 17 seconds this season. The Oklahoma City Thunder have trailed for 249 minutes and 53 seconds this season. So to summarize for the simpletons out there, the Thunder have led by 20 plus points more than they have trailed by, say with me, everyone.

[Tony Reali]

Big eye head.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Ah, point Dan to piggyback off that. Obviously they're going to be compared to the greatest regular season team of all time in the 1516 Warriors. They are completely lockstep on pace with Golden State 24 and one through the first 25 games. December 12th was the. Was the. The day that Golden State lost their first game. But we're looking at a historic pace. If I gave you the over, under handicapped it at 71 wins. Do you go over or under?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, you got to go over. You have to go over. I know that Zaz and Kendrick Perkins are doing 80 and 2, but I mean, walk me through some of this because I, I believe that what's happening right now is problematic for the league because when it's Michael Jordan and the Bulls doing it or when it's the warriors and Kyle Klay Thompson and Steph Curry shooting like no one's ever seen and revolutionizing the sport, I can make it interesting. I'm going to have a hard time doing it with defense. I'm going to have a real hard time making basketball defense interesting to the average person.

[Tony Reali]

I'm going to tell you right now, the way they play defense. No, that's not true. They play defense. It's fun because it's turnovers. A lot of times we talk about great defensive teams. It's a lot of it's in the mud. They miss each four pistons rough. It's like arm wrestling. A lot of it's very physical and slow. These guys, because it's so fast paced, because they're turning it over. Live ball turnovers, we're getting out in the fast breaks, we're dunking. There was a point last night where they were like, turn them over, come back, hit a three. Turn over, come back, hit a three. They play an interesting, fun style of basketball. I don't think the market thing really matters. I think what matters is when people Watch these guys play. It's a fun style. This isn't your Tim Duncan Spurs. This isn't your Chauncey Billups Pistons. These guys are fun to watch.

[Amin Elhassan]

And.

[Tony Reali]

And they're dominant. And the thing that we know about all sports is the biggest kind of light that calls people under the tent is if you have a dominant, nobody can beat them. It's Rocky 4 all over again. You've seen them. You know how strong he is. You can't win. That's the thing that brings people in. Everyone claims they love parody. Parody is bullshit. Everyone locally loves parody because, like, oh, my team has a chance. But the reality is, nationally, nationally, no one's interested because, like, oh, so anyone can win. All right, I'll call me when it's important. But when you have someone who is so dominant and so ruthlessly dominant, what ends up happening is everyone's like, either, wow, can they win 80 games? Or, wow, who's going to beat them? And by the way, guys, I have a prediction for everybody. You guys ready for this? The Oklahoma City Thunder will not win the NBA Cup. They're going to lose in the NBA cup final. Do you know why I'm saying this? No. Because every game they played up until this point counts towards their record. The semifinal game on Saturday, that counts towards their regular season record. But the NBA cup final is the 83rd game, and the league has determined not only does that not count towards your record, but any stats accumulated in that game do not count to your season stats. So it is the most meaningless game other than winning the NBA cup and winning $500,000, I think. I think.

[Dan Le Batard]

I think Dagonal is going to take a dive.

[Tony Reali]

I think whoever comes out of the east is going to win the NBA Cup. You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen.

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[Mike Ryan]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Don LeBatard comic D Frog here live.

[Mike Ryan]

From Meadowlock Media Studios here in Miami.

[Dan Le Batard]

Stugats.

[Mike Ryan]

Germans are advancing on France in World War II.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats.

[Tony Reali]

And you look at the head of.

[Kendrick Perkins]

The spear for OKC and Shay Gillis Alexander, he's a very like vintage player, right? He gets to the mid to the mid range a lot. He's able to get to the cup in this STEPH CURRY EYES NBA where everybody wants to shoot 45 footers. He's like, no, I'm going to get to my spot. If the free throw line extended, I'm going to get to my spot in the corner. I'm going to get to the, to the hoop. I'm going to get fouled. Like that's, that's what we used to watch in the early 2000s.

[Tony Reali]

It's what people have been crying about.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Like, oh, what happened to the mid range?

[Dan Le Batard]

Everyone just shoots threes and like, here comes angels. I'm going to bring Pablo in on this because I do believe Tony, you and Amin really love basketball. I do too. I would say Pablo does too. I would say a lot of people in this room love basketball. And so I'm taking a devil's advocate position. This is not my position. I'm taking a devil's advocate position when I say not only is it not good to win with defense, not only is small pulp market generally rejected, but the other thing that's here is for 15 years we've been trained on super teams. It's not one guy. It's not one guy. Mid range jumpers, we haven't done that since Dirk. That is not something as a devil's advocate position. Pablo. That I can sell to the person who doesn't love basketball the way Tony and Amin love basketball.

[Amin Elhassan]

I think the real story of the Thunder is that they're the best run organization in all of sports. And that's not a great fight poster that they have proven that the small market thing can become irrelevant if you're well run enough. I mean the whole story of like how the Thunder were born, I mean, Amin, you know this. The Clippers are responsible for it. The Clippers are responsible for why the Thunder are going to own the next 10 to 15 years.

[Dan Le Batard]

The Clippers loving the super team thing.

[Amin Elhassan]

Because they wanted Kawhi Leonard and Paul George at the expense of everything, which was the old math. And Sam Presti, who is in my opinion simply the most, the sharpest strategist in all of front office. What it mean? What?

[Tony Reali]

No, I was going to say like it's not the Clippers. Ironically enough, this all started in 2008, I want to say 2007 with a trade from Phoenix to Oklahoma City, Kurt Thomas and two first round picks for absolutely nothing because we needed to get under the luxury tax and Robert Sauber was all over our ass about that. And that trade, one of those picks turned into Serge Ibaka and Sergio Baca turned into Victor Oladibo and Victor and that ends up where we are today.

[Amin Elhassan]

Mean, but I mean Sam did this on Bethel, did the super team thing. Sam Presti, to your point in the Phoenix of it. All, right, like that's fair. But Sam Presti did the super team cycle. He did the rare thing where he went through collecting a Baka, Durant, Westbrook, Harden and then lost all of them and rebuilt because the Clippers said we want to do that thing now. We want the superstars. And they sent over everything. I mean again to say the obvious thing that everybody in the NBA is, is muttering about. The Clippers are giving their first rounder to the Thunder this season and they, they might have the number one pick. And that's on top of the five other picks they sent. Right? This is. And Shea, Gilders, Alexander, I think that.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Was the 40 chess that Sam Prezi was playing as the, he was looking at the, at the landscape of basketball being like, okay, I think the blueprint for the super team, the big three, is kind of dead. I want to build this thing another way with getting smart people and kind of the way that they did it through the draft, the original time with kd, with Russ, with Harden, with Ibaka, with all these guys, the blueprint kind of died. And Sam Prezky was like, I'm in a perfect position to usher in a new blueprint of how teams can go going forward.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice (Goldbelly)]

The thing that makes it fascinating, too, is you look at having this. This potential dynasty ahead of you and finding a team that's entertaining to watch because you want to see people take them. The difference between this sport and what's happening in Major League Baseball with the Dodgers is like, the Dodgers just go out and sign a closer for $70 million, because the previous one that they signed for $70 million didn't quite work out, and their bullpen's not good. The fascinating part here is they just built it, and they built a bunch of other teams for their draft picks and have been in this position to build something that does have a super team element as well, because you have Chet Holmgren and Jalen Williams along with Shea. So you have what is a quasi Big three. That's just not marketed the same way because you're in Oklahoma City and you have all of these other pieces around them where Case and Wallace can be plus 19, or rather plus 36 in 19 minutes last night. Like, that's how dominant this team is from top to bottom. And I think a lot of people will find it interesting to watch them moving forward.

[Zaslow]

They were the first team with the strategy of we'll take your shit burger contract, but you have to attach a first round pick to it, right?

[Tony Reali]

I think 2007.

[Zaslow]

I think they started that.

[Tony Reali]

2007. I just told you how it started. I just told you. I was in the front office when we. When we did that deal. I'm like, what are we doing? But it's like, yo, this. Our owner's on our ass. We got to do something. And it was Steve Kerr's first act as a general manager. And later on he would say, man, Sam Presti really got one over on me. But you know what Sam Presti is, Guys, do you guys remember the plot to Superman 3? He's Richard Pryor in Superman 3. The idea that we're going to take a fraction, like, everyone wants to rob millions of dollars. Just like, oh, I'm going to go in there and steal $100 million. Like, no, just give me a fraction of a penny on every transaction. And over time, it will build into this incredible thing. That's what Sam Presti did every time. All these like, oh, Al Horford, I'll take them. Oh, Kemba Walker, I'll take them. Chris Paul, I'll take them. All of these deals over and over and over again. Kept getting more picks, more picks and more picks. And Tony, this is the part where I disagree with you. Respectfully, I was going to say disrespectfully.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, I, like, respectfully.

[Tony Reali]

Respectfully disagree with you because he just rebuilt another Big three. It just. What do you do in the meantime? What you do in the meantime is so incredibly important because what he did, it says we're going to, you know, try out and draft and develop and all these things. But in the meantime, I'm also adding these picks because they're all cash in hand, basically.

[Kendrick Perkins]

But it's homegrown, though. The way the old school method of the Big Three was, I'm going to try and get them from other teams and trade them.

[Tony Reali]

No, that's. I see that people say that. I'm like, no, the way you build a Big three is you get a big three. Can I draft them and can I trade for them? Can I sign them? It doesn't matter. No one's like, you know what my strategy is going to be? Not to do it. I mean, we're just out to get them.

[Amin Elhassan]

But keep in mind, right, you're Oklahoma City. So the question of getting a free agent is a lot harder to answer.

[Dan Le Batard]

Sure.

[Amin Elhassan]

So the three ways you can get a superstar, you can't really get a free agent. So that's why it's so impressive. Right. What's impressive about a small market team? It's not just that. Oklahoma City, until recently, has been the team that's most likely to complain on behalf of small markets when, Whenever there's any NBA issue. It's the fact that they feel rightfully that they're disadvantaged because they can't get one of the three mechanisms to get a superstar to apply to them because the free agent, they got to trade and draft.

[Zaslow]

Okay, so we want to make the Thunder interesting, right? I mean, who says no? The Thunder trade Holmgren and the Clippers pick, which could be number one overall for Giannis.

[Tony Reali]

So we talked about this on Basketball Illuminati a couple of weeks ago. Basketball Illuminati. Basketball Illuminati. Basketball Illuminati three times. Keep third eye open. And the whole concept is, if the Thunder were to go after Giannis, it would actually be more of a financial deal than anything else because Holmgren and Jalen Williams both have contracts that explode next year because they signed these big max extensions in the off season. And Hartenstein and Lou Dort are both entering the last years of their deal next year. So you would try to organize, orchestrate A deal to avoid paying way too much money, which is what they've avoided over the last couple years to too many people. So instead of doing that and having to pay premium for Hartenstein, who is a good player but is replaceable, premium for Lou Dort, who's a good place but is replaceable, you pay it to Giannis and then build around that. Him and Shea, Gilgamesh, Alexander and then probably Jalen Williams.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice (Goldbelly)]

Wow.

[Tony Reali]

Now, who would say no? I don't know. I mean, obviously I think Milwaukee would go through the roof over something like that. Especially because you're including that pick.

[Dan Le Batard]

Let's put these things on the poll. Beyond basketball, Illuminati Amin is great for wisdom everywhere. And I really think he dropped a great bit of wisdom that we could commemorate in poll status by putting up the poll question. Is the way to get a big three, to get a big three at LeBatard show. And also is Sam Presti, like Richard Pryor in Superman 3, put that on the poll as well. The place that I will say is not a devil's advocate position on saying that this Thunder thing is not good for basketball. You have to have some close games, guys. You can't have all the games be 30 and 40 points. This is an unprecedented stretch of basketball. No one has ever played 25 regular season games with this kind of point differential. Not at the beginning of a season. At any point in all the seasons ever played, there's never been a team winning like this over 25 games, Dan.

[Tony Reali]

I would say yes, except for the fact that last year they were pretty dominant. They were one of the highest margins of victories in NBA history. I think there was second all time. And yet they got to the finals and what did we see? We saw a real competitive seven game series. So all of this stuff said, oh, y', all, it's the same thing we did with the warriors in 2016.

[Dan Le Batard]

You say that we did see a competitive seven game series, but in that game seven, what ends up happening with the Thunder a lot is somebody got hurt by double digits. Like they. They don't play. Yes.

[Tony Reali]

Damn. Come on. You're not, you're not good faith arguing now. Now you gotta have some good faith. Don't give me that bad faith.

[Amin Elhassan]

What do you mean?

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm not good faith arguing.

[Tony Reali]

They're not good faith arguing.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's not a good faith.

[Tony Reali]

That's not a good faith argument.

[Amin Elhassan]

Halliburton was electric.

[Mike Ryan]

Best player got hurt.

[Dan Le Batard]

Guys, it's important. Guys, that's the most vulnerable. That team's going to be. I would have loved to see them have to face Denver, who had already done it. They had never done it before. Intense moments. That was a young team. Last year was the year to get okc. This year ain't the year to get okc. They now know they can do it. This team's better than that team.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, but they were going up against TJ McConnell in that 11 game for the championship. So it does matter. It did matter that it won seven. It was a compelling series. It was a good series. And then you build to the game seven crescendo and you realize, well, TJ McConnell's not going to do it.

[Kendrick Perkins]

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[Dan Le Batard]

I swear.

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[Dan Le Batard]

Boom.

[Tony Reali]

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[Kendrick Perkins]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York. Call 877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny467-369 In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. Pass through of tax may apply in Illinois, 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario, restrictions apply. Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days. Minimum odds required. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co audio limited time offer. Don LeBatard. You know how these late season games are. We don't know. It's a big game for the Knicks. We have absolutely no idea how Boston will play it.

[Tony Reali]

I don't know who they'll play. Who they won't play.

[Dan Le Batard]

Stugarts. Okay, all right. That's fine. That's an excellent promotion. You know, I love that. That's great.

[Tony Reali]

That's it.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's perfect advertising for the game. The national game on tv. I'm not going to watch. I'm not going to watch. That was a shitty sales job. This is the D?

[Zaslow]

Ler show with the St.

[Dan Le Batard]

Gods.

[Tony Reali]

And by the way, the last two champions. I think we can all sit here and say with pretty much certainty, man, if y' all had to play that big fella from Denver, maybe it would have been different. Like now, hey, kudos to the Timberwolves who beat Denver last year, and kudos to whoever beat Denver two years ago. But my, My mind escapes me right now. But the point is, like Minnesota, they beat him two years in a row. They didn't beat him two years in a row. Or was it last? It doesn't matter what point. My point is. My point is, the idea is still the same, which is we still have things that represent threats. When you talk about 2016, the warriors, who were so dominant, right, and won 73 games and everything, that war, that Rocket series, they still needed that Game seven where the Rockets missed a million shots. That Thunder Series, they still needed Klay Thompson to go supernova. Crazy, right? And the Finals, obviously, they were up 3:1 in that one, and. And they blew it. Things still happen. We still play the games we still have not had. I don't think in the history of basketball, a season where it's like from game one to the last game of the finals, everything was a yawner.

[Zaslow]

That's why you're not.

[Tony Reali]

Good faith, not good faith.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Plus, they played the Nuggets last season in the semifinals, Game one, Aaron Gordon.

[Tony Reali]

That was the Aaron Gordon. There you go.

[Kendrick Perkins]

So they went to seven there and got pushed more than anybody outside of. Outside of the finals. Like, they, they saw Jokic and they beat him with defensive strategy.

[Tony Reali]

Like. I hear what you're saying, Dan, your good faith argument is that was them inexperienced. Now they have the championship medal and all that. That's a, That's a good faith argument. A bad faith argument is to say, well, I mean, look, they. They won game seven by double digits. Two game sevens. They had missing two pivotal players. That's a bad faith argument, Dan. That's a bad faith argument.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right, you meant, you mentioned that. But what I would say would be an overall concern for the league. You did have some great mom. For the love of God, John Hayman. Teams across Major League Baseball are looking at pitcher Joey Gallo. Back to you, Dan. He's got a big arm. You're turning him into a pitcher. He is indeed working out as a pitcher for multiple Major League Baseball franchises.

[Tony Reali]

Dan, the Gallo or Gallow.

[Zaslow]

Gallo with a G or Gallo with a C?

[Mike Ryan]

Gallo with a G. I was thinking Joey Callow.

[Tony Reali]

Joey Gallo's.

[Amin Elhassan]

Of course.

[Dan Le Batard]

The thing that I was trying to make that was not a bad faith argument is that when you think of last year's postseason and singular moments, I think Halliburton is the one who produced the singular moment. But because in the age of threes you have more double digit results. You didn't have game seven buzzer beaters. You did not have game sevens that were. I worry the way that the league has gone with the three pointer. I don't. Do you think this is a stupid worry to have that you're going to get more and more. You did get this recently. More and more double digit results. So you don't get the dramatic endings that you need to create the moments that continue to live on forever. Go ahead and give me all the moments OKC had in last year's playoffs. Because Halliburton's the guy who got the moments against the Knicks. Give me the ones you remember last year from okc.

[Tony Reali]

Halliburton gave one of the NBA Finals okc.

[Dan Le Batard]

Give me the moments OKC had that meeting Denver, game seven games involving okc, that OKC did things that you remember. They won a championship doing nothing. You remember other than being great.

[Mike Ryan]

They destroyed.

[Amin Elhassan]

It's hard to argue with those.

[Dan Le Batard]

Destroyed them. You understand what I'm saying though? Yeah. Like the three pointer has distorted some of the. Some of the results in this sport so that you don't get the close games at the end.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, Halliburton had plenty of moments. The Pacers had plenty of moments on their run. Yeah, several. And the Thunder found a way to go to Game 7 of the NBA Finals without those super memorable moments.

[Tony Reali]

It was that.

[Dan Le Batard]

So you guys aren't worried about it then? You're not worried that the excellence is too much?

[Tony Reali]

No, not at all. Because I think the excellence is what draws people in. People want to see. They want to see Goliath either destroy someone or they want to see David hit him in between the eyes with a slingshot. That's what this whole thing is built as. And anyone who tells you otherwise does not understand what the history of sports has told us. What do the Yankees do in 98?

[Amin Elhassan]

I think you need more Goliathy behavior as somebody who's been a master in being unlikable recently. I think you need shake elders Alexander to lean in like he needs to be more Goliath, if that's. If that's what you're saying. I just think they're frankly too likable in a small market and they're uncontroversial. They have no drama.

[Mike Ryan]

That's the part. The market I think. Can it really be a Goliath if it's Oklahoma City?

[Tony Reali]

I think Goliath is whoever is dominant, man. Like, I think dominance is what makes us feel that way. I think when we do this thing, like, oh, we need a controversy. We need people hating each other. That's kind of the lazy way we've covered sports over the social media era. But, like, historically, that's not what does it. People hate success. They don't hate like, oh, because those guys are jerks or whatever. They hate success. That's the thing that breeds that contempt. And what Oklahoma City is doing and what they have an opportunity to do is something that we haven't had in this sport for about seven or eight years, which is sustained success.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice (Goldbelly)]

But to Dan's bad faith argument, like, you had the Big three heat and that was a hated team because of the way that they came together and controversy around their Big three. The warriors were really likable until Kevin Durant shows up and that changes everything. So to go to Zaz's point, if Giannis all of a sudden ends up with Oklahoma City, that does add the drama, the specter of all of it. A guy who's already a champion joining this team to that's already a super team. That's already going to be one of the greatest of all time.

[Tony Reali]

Zaz, you know about that Spectre.

[Zaslow]

I already told you, man. Stop asking things. I already answer you about.

[Dan Le Batard]

We're going to do you know about in a second with Zaz. Get ready for that. I want to do it rapid fire, but I do think another that OKC could have. If you're just building storylines and drama, never mind the controversy part of it. Shea Gilous Alexander as an MVP isn't the kind of personality that people talk about as face of the league the way they do or did about John Morant or Anthony Edwards, just because it's not just that they're likable and wholesome. He largely in interviews, commercials, everything else not terribly interesting. Great player, fun to watch, not spokesman for the league type. Now we'll do it with marketing. We did it with Michael Jordan. He wasn't actually terribly interesting in interviews, but Shea Gilgeous Alexander demanding his play speak for him in this day and age, I mean, that doesn't sell as well as having other things other than your play. It's just the play. With Shea Gilgis Alexander, you're not going to get anything else where people in the sport are embracing him because they love the nature of his personality, that that personality has any kind of edge.

[Tony Reali]

I don't see him as like a recluse. I don't look, he's like Tim Duncan. I would compare him to Steph Curry. I mean, even Steph Curry. Not an interesting guy, not an interesting interview. At least not until recently. Michael Jordan is a good example. Michael Jordan gave you a straight vanilla answer to every question, and guess what? The dominance won out. We just love him because he was great. I think Shay Gilders Alexander, not a recluse. He's a guy who's engaging.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hold on a second, though. Hold on a second, though. You're not going to tell me that Michael Jordan, like, part of the problem. They have Shea Gilgis. Alexander doesn't have moments. I mean, Michael Jordan has a thousand, thousand moments.

[Tony Reali]

You remember that moment.

[Amin Elhassan]

What a pro.

[Dan Le Batard]

One moment.

[Mike Ryan]

What a pro wants is a moment. What a pro needs.

[Tony Reali]

Down that stretch against Indiana, we had the footwork, and he came back and he hit that shot, and everyone's like, that's a travel. I'm like, not a travel. Because it starts with the gather. You got moments, man.

[Dan Le Batard]

That explanation for greatness in terms of enduring. I want to watch that. That's not a gather. Is not on Michael Jordan's resume.

[Tony Reali]

That's. You know what we have on.

[Dan Le Batard]

My selling point on moments.

[Tony Reali]

You know what we have on Michael Jordan's resume? He shoved the shit out of Brian Russell. Yeah, we shoved the shit out of him. But you know what? The dominance. We accepted it. We love him for it. But at the time. At the time, people like, that's a foul. And you guys just continue to protect.

[Dan Le Batard]

Him and all that shit. Miami takes it from here. You know about that is coming up with Zaslow. Thank you, guys.