Hour 1: The Game Pablo Torre Loves (feat. The Riddler of Sports Journalism)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode: Hour 1: The Game Pablo Torre Loves (feat. The Riddler of Sports Journalism)
Date: March 9, 2026
Featured Guests: Pablo Torre, Mike Ryan, David Jacoby, Mina Kimes

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Main Theme / Purpose

This hour centers on Pablo Torre’s acclaimed but controversial investigative work around the NBA’s cap circumvention scandal involving Kawhi Leonard and the Los Angeles Clippers, as well as the theatrical way Torre unveils his findings (earning him comparisons to "the Riddler" and Oprah). The conversation also touches on AI’s economic threat, college basketball, and viral pop-culture moments, blending sharp journalism critique with the show’s signature irreverence.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Pablo Torre’s NBA Investigation: Theater Meets Journalism

• Sloan Conference Stunt:
  Torre taped critical documents (the “smoking gun” from his nine-part Kawhi/Clippers probe) under the chair of NBA Commissioner Adam Silver at the Sloan Analytics Conference—and under two other “random” seats, sparking both praise and mockery for his dramatic flair.
• Theatricality and Criticism:
  Jacoby and Mike Ryan roast Torre for being the “Riddler of sports journalism,” with Jacoby likening the event to a caper and “Oprah” giveaway:

  “Pablo was also Oprah during this thing. ... Were we trying to start a whodunit? Is this a caper?”
  — David Jacoby, [01:17]

• Justifying the Stunt:
  Torre defends his approach, arguing that the ongoing NBA investigation (and its attempts to minimize the issue) warrant such spotlighting:

  “I'm only dropping stuff when there is reason to say, oh, maybe it's actually worth considering that attention must be drawn to a story that I think the NBA is actively trying to minimize.”
  — Pablo Torre, [03:54]

Details on the Smoking Gun

• The whistleblower complaint, submitted to federal authorities (DOJ, SEC, CFTC) and cited in Torre’s reporting, explicitly alleges the Clippers circumvented the NBA salary cap by routing payments to Kawhi Leonard via Aspiration, disguised as fake endorsement money.
• Torre notes the document was instrumental in criminal prosecutions (Aspiration’s co-founder and board member pled guilty to wire fraud) and lays out why the evidence is “undeniable.”
• Key elements:
  • Secrecy: No public announcement of the Kawhi endorsement deal.
  • Money Trail: Direct link from a $2M Clippers co-owner investment to a discrete, $1.75M quarterly payment to Leonard, after months of inactivity.
  • Whistleblower Testimony: On-the-record, under penalty of perjury, confirming the scheme was premeditated, not retroactively claimed.

Why the Drip-Feed, and What’s Next?

• Torre admits that while the top revelations were early, ongoing reporting keeps pressure on the NBA:

  “After part one and part two...the three things that are most undeniable, that was accomplished in the first two episodes. Everything else has been further proof...if anybody wants more, there is more. But, frankly, I don't think I need to say what else is out there...”
  — Pablo Torre, [17:40]

• The secrecy about the two “random” chairs: The people who sat there now have documents, but it's up to them to reveal (or not) the contents, furthering Torre’s riddler persona.

Meta-discussion on Journalism & Polarization

• Torre addresses criticisms of his “self-involvement” and why he leans into performance, suggesting that news today has to be theatrical to break through:

  “Theatricality comes from the premise of journalism needs entertainment to cut through. ... I decided, fine, I'll play the game too. And I enjoy the game. And so that's where, that's why I do it that way.”
  — Pablo Torre, [26:00]

• He also discusses how the NBA world reacts: insiders acknowledge the story’s severity, but media tends to defer to the league, which he decries as dangerous for transparency.

Notable Quotes

• “I learned it from you, dad!” — Pablo Torre, poking fun at Dan Le Batard for teaching him polarizing charisma, [25:39]
• “If you ever talk about cheating in sports, ... the most egregious cap circumvention scandal in history, allegedly, is this one.” — Pablo Torre, [26:27]

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2. AI’s Economic Threat: The Next ‘Too Big to Fail’?

• The panel (especially Torre and Kimes) explores the unnerving “too big to fail” trajectory of AI investments, comparing the current boom to the pre-2008 financial sector:

  “AI is becoming too big to fail...the money pouring into it from the US economy is unprecedented...We may have to bail them out too. They will become too big to fail. Which is to say, we are inviting potentially another economic crisis if we don't watch where the money is going.”
  — Pablo Torre, [31:39-34:40]

• Kimes and Torre invoke their backgrounds as business journalists during the financial crisis and voice concerns about the lack of real consumer demand and opaque enterprise spending driving the AI hype.

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3. Sports Talk: College Basketball’s Romance

• Jacoby rhapsodizes about the recent Miami of Ohio vs. Ohio basketball game, praising its old-school March drama and highlighting the emotional power of college underdogs:

  “It was the best basketball game I'd seen this year.” — David Jacoby, [40:01]

• Panel debates the value of undefeated teams from smaller conferences over more prominent but inconsistent programs.
• Quick hit: jokes about Ben Shapiro’s eyebrows going viral, with skepticism about their authenticity:

  “He has Tom Selleck's mustache above each eye.” — Mina Kimes, [42:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:08] — Sloan Conference “smoking gun” stunt explained by Mike Ryan and Jacoby
• [03:16] — The “knockout punch”: whistleblower complaint is the “nuts” (core of the case)
• [05:54] — Pablo Torre explains why documents hidden under specific chairs and his approach
• [10:03] — Torre lays out the three “indisputable” cap circumvention elements
• [17:35] — Debate over why Torre drip-feeds evidence and keeps some secrets
• [18:17] — Torre comments on Mark Cuban’s silence and Adam Silver’s quick White House visit
• [20:09] — Behind the scenes: producer hides documents under chairs before Silver’s panel
• [23:04] — Torre on podcast award nominations, pride in doing “evidence driven reporting”
• [26:00] — Why Torre “plays the game” theatrically in journalism
• [31:39] — Deep dive: AI industry and the risk of economic bubble
• [38:38] — Miami of Ohio undefeated season discussion, nostalgia for college hoops
• [42:26] — Viral eyebrow debates: Ben Shapiro's look

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Journalism as Theater:

  “I'm not here to say that we're Woodward and Bernstein... all I'm simply saying is that if you ever talk about cheating in sports... this is the most egregious cap circumvention scandal in history.”
  — Pablo Torre, [26:27]

• On AI Investment Mania:

  “The speed of money and the scale of money entering artificial intelligence as an industry is so enormous that ... we may have to bail them out too. They will become too big to fail.”
  — Pablo Torre, [34:00]

• On Award Nominations:

  “I'd love to get to a point where, you know, the sheer force of my charisma is the reason why I'm in a category with Amy Poehler in any way. But nah, man, it says we're doing journalism.”
  — Pablo Torre, [23:04]

• Meta-Irony:

  “To your masturbatory credit. Wherever it is, there's one person masturbating verbally, you'll get right in and masturbate verbally.”
  — Mike Ryan, [30:39]

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Tone and Style

Consistently irreverent and self-aware—panelists lampoon themselves, blend sharp investigative detail with meta-jokes about the state of media, journalism’s performative aspects, and the apocalyptic flavor of current events. Torre cheerfully toggles between earnest, document-driven reporting and intentionally over-the-top performance, as both target and teller of the joke.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode deftly combines a serious, credible investigation of NBA wrongdoing with inside-baseball skepticism and gleeful showmanship. Torre’s blend of meticulous reporting and theatrical delivery delivers both revelations and entertainment—“The Riddler,” indeed, takes pride in being both irritating and indispensable. The group then pivots seamlessly to warning of AI-fueled economic disaster and celebrating collegiate sports’ heart, all while lacing the discussion with meme jokes and critiques of internet weirdness.

Fans and new listeners alike will find both an update on sports’ biggest scandal and a masterclass in how modern journalism grabs—and holds—attention.

Transcript

[Dan LeBatard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats podcast.

[Mike Ryan]

Pablo Torre is getting ready right now. And I don't know if you guys saw what it is that Pablo did at the Sloan conference.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo.

[Mike Ryan]

But Mike, as Pablo gets ready to join us here, do you want to file any of your objections? And I will tell the people. First of all, if you didn't see what he did at the Sloan conference, he, I guess, taped. I don't know whether he did it personally or someone else did. But the latest smoking gun, the biggest of the smoking guns that there has been in the nine part Kauai investigation, was taped to the chair in which Adam Silver was sitting, so that the smoking gun was literally under the commissioner's nose as he sat on a panel giving a conference. And Mike Ryan somehow found a way to. To criticize Pablo for this.

[David Jacoby]

Yeah, the Internet and myself are all wondering, why is Pablo trying to be the Riddler? Yes, it was an impressive look, drawn out, overly dramatic, self involved. These things go hand in hand.

[Mike Ryan]

Pablo Torre, that should be the name of the podcast instead of Pablo Torre finds out.

[David Jacoby]

All right, so like, there's this, like, it ends on this cliffhanger. Even though he was promising, like this knockout punch. I'm like, did I see the knockout punch? Or are there two more bits of evidence out there? Also, I asked Amin what was in the two other envelopes that were under two randomly selected chairs. Because Pablo, on top of being the Riddler, was also Oprah during this thing. And Amin's like, I don't even know what's in those envelopes. Were we trying to start a hudunit? Is this a caper?

[Pablo Torre]

Are we? I.

[David Jacoby]

The search functionality on X is terrible, so I can't actually find these other wayward envelopes. It was navel gazing. It was quintessential Pablo Torre in that there was really good journalism being done, but it was also very overly dramatic. Pablo, what say you?

[Mike Ryan]

Let's see if we get his sound up here in a second. Pablo does not appear to be ready for your what say you? Because he took those insults, all of them, right on the chin. He was smiling during many of them. He shouldn't have been. He should be indignant because he's doing very difficult work and he's doing it theatrically because he can't help himself.

[Pablo Torre]

Two questions. Has anyone called him Pablo yet? And Dan, do you ever get worried about potentially crossing Pablo as his boss here because he seems to be a vindictive sociopath?

[Mina Kimes]

Good question.

[Mike Ryan]

Well, it is dramatic and I don't know what was under the other seats. I was a little confused by that. I think he was giving those people also the documented proof. Mike, you're underwhelmed by what is really difficult to do journalism. And you keep saying, give me more of a smoking gun, when every time he does a report, it is more of a smoking gun. And this is the most smoking a gun has been around. This, where he's got the documentation of a whistleblower telling the government. There's paperwork saying, look, this is all allegedly a contrivance meant to just pay Kawhi Leonard where no one's looking.

[David Jacoby]

It was the lead in the whistleblower complaint. That was. That was the nuts. That was the big revelation that in this whistleblower complaint to the federal government, the lead was, they're trying to circumvent the NBA salary cap with Kawhi's endorsement deal. I'm not the person saying, give me more of a smoking gun. Pablo Torre is. He said, there's two more smoking guns underneath two more random chairs. And he ended his live podcast on a cliffhanger, and the broadcast cut out and it me off.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, he's doing this in dribs and drabs, and he's doing this because he's got it months in advance, and he's way ahead of this story. So, Pablo, defend yourself.

[Pablo Torre]

Hi, guys. Can you hear me now? Yes. Good. Yes, I appreciate. I appreciate the insult and the conversation. As always, part of. Part of what I want to do is always. And this is the. The curse of me is draw attention to what we're doing, because I. I unfortunately think we're at this phase where I thought we were going to be done after episode two, and we're not. You know, the NBA investigation is ongoing. The NBA investigation has been a focus of what we did at Sloan on Friday Live, which is to say I talked to five former Aspiration employees who all told me that they were not asked by Wachtel Lipton, the NBA's preferred outside investigation firm. They were not asked directly about Steve Ballmer by name. Right. And so I am not just, like, dumping all of this as fast as I can because, you know, I'm trying to. I'm trying to be first on everything. I'm trying to make sure I get it right. And I'm only dropping stuff when there is reason to say, oh, maybe it's actually worth considering that attention must be drawn to a story that I think the NBA is actively trying to minimize. And so that's. That's part of why we, we, we Oprahed it. Part of why me and David had no idea what they were getting in for. It's why we did at a conference where Adam Silver was on those very chairs hours earlier before of course, going to meet Donald Trump at the White House in ways that I could not have possibly scripted.

[Mike Ryan]

What was under the other two chairs? For those who don't know, Sloan conference is the Dorkapalooza. A lot of, lot of the smartest people in sports get together and you know, they congratulate each other for an assortment of things. And under the chair of Adam Silver was a smoking gun. What was under the two other chairs in the audience that you placed in what were the seats? Because you are trying to be the Riddler. There's no dispute on that.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, Mike said they were random chairs. It was Rose K and Roselle, seat number two. You know, so.

[Mike Ryan]

But what was there?

[David Jacoby]

So see, he's even more like the Riddler.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, but what was there, I don't want, I don't want to solve. I get it. K and L and 2. I get it.

[Pablo Torre]

Unfortunately, unfortunately, that is for the people sitting in those chairs to reveal. It's their. They have those documents now get them to the whistleblower complaint. The whistleblower complaint. I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not here to, to, to step on further reporting. Just know that the reporting continues. The whistleblower complaint was many pages long.

[David Jacoby]

You've done nine of these.

[Pablo Torre]

There's lots more to find out.

[David Jacoby]

That was the ninth one.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm a surprise. I'm as surprised as anybody that we're going to have a tenth. Right. I'm genuinely as surprised as anybody. It's, it's, it's something though in the whistleblower complaint that I don't want to just speed past as we get to whatever sequels here, because I just want to clarify. This is the document that started the actual federal investigation into Aspiration. So the co founder of Aspiration, Joe Sandberg, was prosecuted. He pled guilty to wire fraud. His co conspirator, Ibrahim Al Husseini, who was a board member of Aspiration, prosecuted, pled guilty to wire fraud. Those things happened because of the roadmap laid out in this document, which had been rumored for a very long time inside of Aspiration, but no one had ever seen before because of whistleblower complaint is confidential. And one of the things that has happened that has enabled the reporting. And by the way, this is why, like when I say I Have to get it right. I really do wait for the actual document. Like it's not. The evidence is now undeniable in terms of did these federal whistleblowers under penalty of perjury, put into writing in March of 2020, three years before I ever even published part one? Did they say the thing that people have since accused me of grafting and grifting onto a story in retrospect? Oh, this. Why would they ever be talking about cap circumvention? This is a larger criminal enterprise. What does it matter? Anyone care about the salary cap? Well, this is part nine, parts one through eight. Explain that. And here is kind of the keystone in case anybody still had remaining doubt. And you can see it on screen, it says even to pay Clippers forward Kawhi Leonard an incentivized bonus to circumvent the NBA salary cap. Disguised is an organic marketing sponsorship agreement. By the way, we've provided contract of that agreement. We provided bank statements of money in and money out. We now have a whistleblower complaint under perjury from two aspiration employees. And the only way, by the way this comes together is because in sort of like poetic symmetry with Adam Silver going to the White House, this administration has effectively turned over multiple federal agencies that have been investigating the story. The Department of Justice, the sec, the cftc, the three agencies that these whistleblowers reported to, those are all shells of themselves. And so my ability to report the story, it is like panoramic at this point. You know, it's like I'm going to every possible place and that's the only way you can get to the bottom of a story like this. And the question is, who else is doing that?

[Mike Ryan]

One of the things that I see happening, and I just think that it really shows great IGN about, and I will keep saying this, the degree of difficulty on getting documentation that is vetted, that makes for proof. A lot of people are saying, wake me up when there is something that's an update, as the updates are incremental. They are updates. And Bruce Arthur, the Canadian columnist, is saying, quote, pablo delivers again, there is simply no other plausible scenario other than cap circumvention in the Kawhi case. Why do you believe that what's happened, happened so far represents the greatest proof of any kind that you have as it relates to a smoking gun? And how can you possibly say there's a lot more to find out here?

[Pablo Torre]

I want to credit Bruce Arthur because Bruce. Bruce, of course like covers the rafters in Toronto. He had heard and has reported since what Dennis Robertson, Kawhi's unlicensed representative, his uncle had been requesting of the Raptors and he had been requesting, per Bruce's reporting, a no show job and equity in a company that he never do any work for. And that is the story incidentally of aspirations. So these requests were made. The question is how were they delivered? And here we have nine parts showing that. So credit to Bruce for truly like reporting out that aspect of the story to me. There are three indisputable examples of why this is cap circumvention. The first one was in the first episode. It was that no one ever announced this deal. Why would an endorsement deal be secret? Like I've been waiting for any. I had Mark Cuban in the studio at length, like asking why would this ever remain confidential? An endorsement agreement with Kawhi Leonard in which not only did he do nothing, you never announced it. Why would that never be announced? Why would that do nothing?

[Mike Ryan]

When you say do nothing. The alleged no show job that he was paid for, that required him to do nothing.

[Pablo Torre]

He was, he was signed to a $28 million contract, an endorsement agreement that he did nothing for. In fact, the greatest example is that they never even announced that the endorsement contract existed even as Kawhi was getting paid to never talk about it. Why would the Clippers and Kawhi and Aspiration all agree? None of us should. Not only we should never say anything about this, we should deny it in the future. Like what other reason other than this needed to be a secret deal to violate the NBA salary cap? What other reason would there be? Right. So there's just a logical like documentation and evidence around that part. The second thing is the fact that Dennis Wong, the Clippers co owner Steve Ballmer has one co owner of the Clippers. It's rare, Dad. A 99 to one ownership route. Two people. One guy owns 99. One guy, it was 1%. Dennis Wong went to Harvard with Steve Ballmer. He is his close friend. He is the vice chairman of the Clippers. He, as we've reported exhaustively when Aspiration was in default, Dennis Wonkin never put money in before. And he decides in December of 2022 I'm going to invest $2 million into a broke company that I know via the disclosure form on the contract which we also published. We know that they are under investigation by the sec. We know that they have no money, they're broke. I'm going to invest as if they're a normal company. And then nine days later, Kawhi Leonard will be paid $1.75 million, his quarterly payment to do nothing after months of not getting paid that sum because aspiration had burned through all of their money. Right. Why would they do that? Why would they pay Kawhi when they had no other money to pay anything? Why would they pay the guy that is a secret endorser who does nothing nine days after the co owner of the Clippers puts in money for the first time? The only outside investor to give money to aspiration. Right. No one's ever explained any other plausible money in, money out explanation for that. So that's the second thing. And the third thing we're just talking about, like, what feels the most indisputable the rankings here. The third thing is this complaint, the whistleblower complaint under penalty of perjury to the federal government in 2023. One of the questions has always been, why is it that you have all these anonymous sources, even on tape, voice modulated, Right. It's very easy to say in retrospect they were circumventing the cap because maybe you were convinced by episode one, maybe you were just, you know, connecting dots on your own. This complaint shows in writing under federal penalty, that can be prosecuted if you knowingly lie. That people said this long before I ever heard of the company. And so I'm okay with the demand for a smoking gun. All I ask of anybody who takes that side of the argument is to provide one alternative explanation to Bruce Arthur's point that it's something else. Tell me what you think explains this. And no one has ever plausibly done that.

[David Jacoby]

Hey, it's Mike Ryan and I want to talk to you about the random midweek hang that you have with your friends. Maybe it's an NBA game. You get a text, hey, come over. You wanna watch the game? And maybe you're like, ah, I don't know, I kinda just wanted to stay home. And then you think about it after your buddy hits you up and you know, just the thing that'll make that regular hang, that regular midweek hang around the basketball game into a special time, into a Miller time.

[Dan LeBatard]

That's right.

[David Jacoby]

This happened to me just last week. I grabbed a six pack of Miller Lite, said I was on my way, and next thing you know, we're arguing about rotations, like we're on the coaching staff yelling about a missed call, and the game's coming down to the final possession. It was one of those nights that you look around, you take a sip and you think, yeah, this was the right call and my friendship's stronger for it. Cheers to legendary moments with Miller Lite. Great taste. 96 calories go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces people

[Dan LeBatard]

ask what I'm working on this year, and honestly, it's comfort. That's it. Especially during hockey season. If you've ever been to a hockey arena, you know it's cold, you're walking, you're sitting, you're standing while listening to an interview where the player is giving the same Tired of cliches? The wrong socks will ruin your night. That's why I'm into the new Bombus Sports Socks. The engineer for movement. Cushioned in the right spots, breathable sweat. Wicking supportive. Whether I'm at the rink or out for a walk or just locked into a three hour game that somehow goes into overtime, they hold up. And when I get home, Bombas has the everyday comfort covered too. The Sherpa Sunday slippers are elite. The tees and underwear soft, breathable. Just easy. It's comfort you don't have to think about. And for every item you buy, Bombas donates one to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. Head over to bombas.com dan and use code D A-N for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S.com dan code dan at checkout hockey's stressful. Your socks shouldn't be.

[David Jacoby]

Don LeBatard Pablo leads all of podcasting in Reading while smiling.

[Pablo Torre]

If you listen to ESPN Daily, he sounds like he's having the time of his life.

[David Jacoby]

Stugats Coming up next, I'm gonna tell

[Mina Kimes]

you how the Savannah Bananas are changing.

[David Jacoby]

How do you know I'm smiling? Savannah Bananas. How do you know I'm smiling? That's how I found my vocal range. Sometimes I just say, Savannah Bananas. Savannah Bananas.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the stug.

[David Jacoby]

These documents are really difficult to get a hold of unless you're randomly seated in rows K and L at the Sloan Conference and then it's just in your possession. Pablo, did you embargo this because you ended the episode on a cliffhanger and I just assumed? Well, since two randos have these documents, I'll just check social media and this will be posted there But I haven't heard what's in these envelopes at all. Are they in your employees? How have you kept this buttoned up?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, you know, I'm a careful person. I'm a careful guy.

[David Jacoby]

But why even do that?

[Pablo Torre]

I. Because I don't think you need anything else. I genuinely think that after part one and let's say part two, Right. The first two things in this power rankings are the three things that are most undeniable that was accomplished in the first two episodes. Everything else has been further proof. Reporting, sourcing, dissection, counterargument, pressure testing, all that stuff, you know, for. For seven months. And so if anybody wants more, there is more. But frankly, like, I don't. I don't think I need to say what else is out there, but I'm. I guess I'll get to it at some point, though.

[Mina Kimes]

Two questions, Pablo. One, did you run into Adam Silver at all at the conference? And two, have you heard it all from Mark Cuban lately?

[Pablo Torre]

You know, I. Mark Cub. Mark has disappeared. Marcus summarily disappeared. It's interesting that, like, the episode I did with Dan, when I brought Dan in for one of the aspirations episodes, it was about the carbon credit stuff. And we retraced that in this episode, part nine, on Friday Sloan. Dan was the first person to experience that. And I bring that up because the reason I booked Dan for that episode was because I wanted to get Mark Cuban and I had to settle for another Cuban. And Mark was the person who first theorized if we were gonna do. It's true. It's true. And the question that Mark Cuban theorized was, if you're gonna do cap circumvention, you do it through carbon credits. And so I'm not gonna redo all of the Friday episode here, although I've basically started to. It's. Yes, great point. And we show that that is also what happened here. And so Mark Cuban has. Has disappeared, which is, I think, telling. As to your point, Adam went almost immediately from that stage to. I presume this is just my connecting of the dots, how you get to Washington, D.C. in time for a 4 o' clock meeting with the President from Boston, where he was. He went right to the private jet, I assume, to the White House. So, no, although, again, it was. It was. It was the number of people who were in the audience. Yeah, these are. These are. These are all characters who I think might have thumbs on the scale of what the NBA does. And we'll see whether. Whether that was, you know, persuasive. To them.

[Mike Ryan]

Take us through how it is that physically you got the document taped under his chair and did you literally want the evidence to be right under his nose?

[Pablo Torre]

So it started. It didn't start. Look, as much as I like being, you know, something like the Joker, the

[Mike Ryan]

Riddler, you're not the Joker.

[Pablo Torre]

The Riddler.

[Mike Ryan]

You're not the Joker. As evidenced by this.

[Pablo Torre]

I think that's better.

[Mike Ryan]

That's you're not the Joker. You don't get to be the Joker. You can be the Riddler.

[Pablo Torre]

That's a good photo.

[Mina Kimes]

The Joker would have killed him.

[Mike Ryan]

Adam Silver looks like somebody who could be a villain in one of these movies. He just physically, more than anyone in sports. But how. How is it physically? Take me through both the thought process, the decision, and who physically did it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. So again, I'm Riddler. I'm somebody who got invited to do a panel at Sloan and thought to myself, who else is speaking at Sloan? Oh, wow, Adam Silver is speaking earlier in the day in the same lecture hall. And I'm going to have David and Amine there. Like, how can I convey to David and Amin this new information? Well, typically I'd give them folders, but there's not a desk. So what if we do it some other way? And then I thought, well, it'd be funny because I've. I'm an American who grew up in the age of daytime television. It'd be funny if, like, I did the Oprah thing and was like, look under your chairs. There's a gift for you. Instead of a car you got to pay taxes on, it's this document. And so I thought, wait a minute. If we put those documents under David and Amin's chairs early enough in the day, it's possible that Adam would be sitting in that same chair. And so I had one of our producers, who will remain nameless, perhaps for legal reasons, show up at Sloan at 7am on Friday and tape it underneath the chairs. And I should say for legal reasons as well. Daryl Morey, the organizer and the co founder of the conference, had no idea what we were doing. Nobody at the conference was in on this in the way that, of course, our staff was. And so for that reason, we just woke up really early and it turned out that, yep, these were the chairs.

[Mike Ryan]

I should mention that Ballmer and the Clippers continue to deny all wrongdoing. They decline to comment for this episode as they have for a while, and they say they are fully cooperating with the NBA's investigation that was sparked by Pablo Pablo is Up for yet more awards? I should tell you, 2026 I Heart podcast Awards are next Monday at South by Southwest. He is nominated for Podcast of the Year. He's also up for best host. So Podcast of the Year, he's going up against the Daily Call Her Daddy, the Breakfast Club, Mel Robbins, Theo Vaughn, all the big names in podcasting. And on best Host, it's Amy Poehler and E.M. chamberlain and also Alex Cooper from Call Her Daddy. The biggest award that you have been proudest to win so far, and do you expect to win this one? Because the work you're doing is unlike anything anyone, never mind sports podcasting, anyone anywhere is doing in podcasting.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, look, no one. No one. For better and for worse. And the award stuff is for the better. And I am like, you know, I'm hardened that people have felt boxed in enough by journalism that they feel like they gotta put us into those categories, frankly, because we're doing it in a way that no one else is doing it. For better and for worse. Which is to say with these documents, like, we're, we're, we're. I, I would love to get to a point where, you know, the sheer force of my charisma is the reason why I'm in a category with Amy Poehler in any way. But nah, man, it says we're doing journalism. Like, we're really showing the power of doing evidence driven reporting. And so I am so thrilled that we've, we've been included because it's weird. Like, it's a bunch of people that I would say billionaires would love to invite to a cocktail party. And then the one person who they absolutely don't. And I take pride in that. I take pride in the fact that it's a weird thing for us to be in those, in those, in those rooms.

[Mike Ryan]

Who's on the other side of arguing the other side of this right now? Who are you hearing from? And are you willing to say that Mark Cuban is now hiding from you in a sheer act of cowardice?

[Pablo Torre]

If Mark Cuban is, is, is out there, I would love for you to come back on the show. He, he came in studio and we talked at length and he was such a delight. And then he tweeted nothing after it came out and he's stopped talking about aspiration entirely. And I'm just curious why. So I'm not going to call him a coward. I'm merely going to say that a silence has been conspicuous and I'd like to figure out, like, if his thinking has changed. He was Team Ballmer. And, and since he's, he's. He's been very, very, very, very, very quiet.

[Mike Ryan]

Who's, who's on the other side of this? Who, who else is out there? Because look, you've become. It's strange to me, Okay, I underestimated 10 years ago that the President of the United States could become the President of the United States. Taking a hatchet to journalism. People hate journalists more than just about any occupation. It's right up there with used car salesman and agent and lawyer. In terms of not liking somebody, you, despite doing legitimately extraordinary work, have now become polarizing, at least in part because you do it as the riddler and you do it with some self involvement. And you call it charisma. I call it hateability that you were taught at the knee of us.

[Pablo Torre]

You.

[Mike Ryan]

Yes. Yeah, of us. Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

I learned it from you, dad, by the way.

[Mike Ryan]

Dan. Dan. I learned it from you. Dan said in the Freudian slip, dad, you have been surprised by the reaction. And who's on the other side of this? Because you keep presenting facts that make it damn near impossible to be on the other side of this because of all of the things that you said. Show me the alternative reasoning here that no one can explain.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, look, the reason that I do the theater of this is from a place of wow. I got invited to this conference to do a live show. How can I make this interesting? And then I was. If I'm gonna do another chapter in this series that people are pretty numb to, because I think most people out there, by the way, fans, head coaches, owners, general managers, when I run into them, when I see them at games, at conferences, they all agree that this is egregious. These allegations feel like they deserve punishment, right? These alleged schemes must warrant punishment. That's what I hear all the time. So I'm not saying that like, you know, people are, are, are, are idiots who don't get what I'm saying. I think they largely do. Theatricality comes from the premise of journalism needs entertainment to cut through. And I was a writer who only wrote. I was a TV person who only gas bagged. And now I'm trying to do both of them together because I am, I am at odds, I guess, with what is required otherwise to make an impact. And so I decided, fine, I'll play the game too. And I enjoy the game. And so that's where, that's why I do it that way. The people who are on the other side of this, though, frankly, it's people who cover and Talk about the NBA who find that this story should be adjudicated by the NBA. I'm like, guys, I'm not here to say that we're Woodward and Bernstein, right? I'm not here to say that this is the president being forced to resign. I'm not saying that. All I'm simply saying is that if you ever talk about cheating in sports, if you talk about capture convention, which is how you get the most important assets in this sport, star players to join a team which everybody cares about so deeply that entire off seasons, entire seasons are overshadowed by the acquisition of star players, Right? That's the whole thing with NBA Twitter. We're obsessed with it. I'm telling you, the most egregious, and the ringer has said this to its credit, the most egregious cap circumvention scandal in history, allegedly, is this one. And so why would you leave it to the NBA to tell you how big a deal it is or not months removed from its initial impact, such that the footprint of it, the accountability of it, the importance of it can be reduced? Right? Like that's I come at. And this is where, you know, I do feel like I just gotta reassert something. I do this because I'm like actually a sports fan, because I grew up loving the NBA, because I grew up writing into a little notebook the Dream Team statistics and fetishize the New York Knicks and admiring Michael Jordan despite my fandom of the Knicks and going to games and really caring about this thing and then watching our sport, my favorite sport, become a thing that built up credibility over time. That became a very popular mainstream product welcomed into American homes all around the world as well. And they decided to get into business with a bunch of people who frankly are misrepresenting the truth of what they're doing to the public. And I mean this to say in the Epstein class sense, I mean this to say in the crypto scammer sense, I mean this to say in the sovereign wealth fund sense, I mean this to say in the Silicon Valley sense, and certainly in the case of a company like Aspiration, which the NBA and the Clippers decided to present to the public as if this is a real company and they didn't do the due diligence and they're still, it seems, allegedly not doing the due diligence. And the question of like, what has happened, you know, what's that meme? What's happened to the game? I love the reason I'm on this and why I'm not leaving it to the NBA. To tell you what's really happening here is because I think the truth when it comes to sports should be taken seriously. And I gotta be a turd in the punch ball sometimes, I guess to do that. And also that. And also literally the Riddler.

[Mike Ryan]

Perhaps you've also noticed that when he gives the ringer credit or Bruce Arthur credit and says to their credit, it's only when they're saying that he's done exactly the correct thing the most correctly, you've noticed that perhaps that he doles out credit to people who already agree with him on things. And the whole exercise is fairly masturbatory. But it does seem.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, it becomes less masturbatory the more participants. Right. It becomes something else. There are other terms for it. It's true, you know.

[Mike Ryan]

Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate.

[Pablo Torre]

He's right. When he's right, he's right.

[Mike Ryan]

I appreciate you co signing on that. Yes. To your credit. To your masturbatory credit. Wherever it is, there's one person masturbating verbally, you'll get right in and masturbate verbally.

[David Jacoby]

Even more than here, I have to masturbate orally.

[Pablo Torre]

Be right about the Miami he but Pablo has people there to help him when it comes to the Clippers. Hey, by the way, Pablo, what do

[David Jacoby]

you think of the five game win streak for the Heat?

[Mike Ryan]

So anyway, the other things that Pablo is doing because he is doing an extraordinary job on Pablo Torre finds out is every episode has something interesting in it. You just did1onai when you say the sport. I love the social media parts that I used to love. Mike Ryan just pointed out on X how hard it is to search for things. Mina Kimes is pointing out that Google doesn't help her do her job anymore because it's been so contaminated as a search engine. I was alarmed by your recent reporting on artificial intelligence. You've done a couple of pieces on this. What is the last and most recent information that you found most interesting about just how damaging and dangerous artificial intelligence is?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I mean, economically speaking. I'm talking to all these experts who are far better versed in the industry of artificial intelligence than I am. There's just no way of avoiding the sinking feeling that AI is becoming too big to fail. Which is to say that Amina was a great voice to this. As a former business journalist herself. Like we're being sold a product and we're being told that this product is so popular and so good. And whether or not that resonates with you at Home using AI in the way that you do or don't, the money pouring into it from the US economy is unprecedented. The speed of money and the scale of money entering artificial intelligence as an industry is so enormous that we are going to get to a point that reminded us, me and Mina, of 2008, the great financial crisis, when we were both reporters working in New York City and there were companies, there were banks that were too big to fail. And what does that even mean for those who forgot the great financial crisis? It literally meant that there was so much money tied up in certain financial institutions that even though those institutions were corrupt and betraying the public in the most definitional ways and were not using that money responsibly, in fact collapsing the economy. The US people, US the government, public money, had to save those companies to prop them up. Otherwise the economy would have been even worse. And so AI is getting to that same point. There is so much money propping up AI, which is in turn boosting the US economy. When you think about the most valuable companies in the world, like Nvidia, these chip makers that are funding the processing that AI runs on. When you think about OpenAI, when you think about Anthropic, when you think about Google, these are all comp. Apple is getting into. The AI is already in the AI business. All these companies are saying AI is the future. Cool. And before they have to prove its use to the people, to customers, in real life, they're getting investment such that if those products end up being not a thing people want to actually pay for, right? Like what's the actual business? At the end of this, Mina was asking the question, are real people paying for these AI products? Or are companies or enterprise customers paying for them? And therefore it seems like a lot of normal people are, but really it's just companies paying other companies to boost stock prices. And if that's the case and AI as a product turns out to not be the revelation, then by the time those stocks fall, the US economy will be so reliant upon them that we may have to bail them out to they will become too big to fail. Which is to say we are inviting potentially another economic crisis if we don't watch where the money is going. And that is a little bit terrifying. Don LeBatard.

[Mike Ryan]

There's sunglasses in boxes today but in my bed in the hospital ending our lives all the same.

[David Jacoby]

Two guts.

[Mike Ryan]

It's the final night gown.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the st.

[Mike Ryan]

Have any of you guys seen the movie 2073? 2073. It is put out there as a dystopian future sort of action movie, but it's actually a documentary inside of it. And all of it's horrifying. Like what is presently happening with the government of the United States, for example, being so brazenly purchased by billionaires, more brazenly than we've ever seen. It's always been so. But the government being used right now by billionaires to create a dystopian future that separates the billionaires from all of the little people. I had to turn it off in the middle of it because the truth is so horrifying. Your podcast with Mina felt the same way. The truth is so horrifying. I wanted to turn it off because there's no coming back from where we already are.

[Pablo Torre]

That is a downside for us in the awards categories we've been entered into that people find the things we're reporting to be so horrified.

[Mike Ryan]

It's not Call her daddy. It's not Call her Daddy. It's a year. That's not what you're doing. Those shouldn't be in the same reporting on.

[Pablo Torre]

We're reporting on Gluck glucking of a different kind. In this case. In this case, it is the administration of our country and, and the corporate leaders that you're referring to. Yeah, man. It's scary. It's scary. And I, I, I, you know, I, I think there's again, the water is warm, by the way. I think the, it's just funny, dad, that, like, again, the I learned it from you stuff, I, I think there's a lot of room for people to make an impact here talking about this stuff, and maybe people have made a calculation that serves them best and that's okay on some level. But I don't know. Just seems like in the documentary of our time, and this is the exercise I always tried to do 10 years from now, in the documentary of our time, you know, which character are you going to be? And I think people are maybe not making the right choice on that.

[Mike Ryan]

The name of the podcast is Pablo Torre Finds out. Can we do something a little more uplifting when we talk about the end of the world? Die.

[Mina Kimes]

We're all going to die.

[Mike Ryan]

We're all gonna die.

[Pablo Torre]

We're all gonna die.

[Mike Ryan]

The sky seems to be falling and

[Pablo Torre]

we're all wondering why.

[Mike Ryan]

Let's turn on the news and find

[Mina Kimes]

out how we're gonna die.

[Mike Ryan]

Thank you, Pablo. Pablo Torre finds out. It really is extraordinary. I urge all of you to check it out. I remember when the quaint apocalyptic movie. Was it called 2011 or 2012 with John Cusack? The movie where he's just driving as fast as he can.

[Mina Kimes]

I like that movie.

[Mike Ryan]

As Earth falls apart behind him, it seems quaint and charming and fossilized. Just an antique compared to where it is that we are actually headed. You like the movie? Is it 2011 or 2012?

[Mina Kimes]

I think it's 2012.

[Pablo Torre]

2012.

[Mike Ryan]

Where. Where the Statue of Liberty just falls into. Into the ocean.

[Mina Kimes]

I like those apocalyptic type like. Like what's the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as well?

[David Jacoby]

Right. Day After Tomorrow.

[Mina Kimes]

I like that movie too. Yeah, I like those kind of films.

[Mike Ryan]

We're living in the middle of it right now. We are at the center of it. So let's. Let's distract ourselves with the Miami of Ohio undefeated.

[Pablo Torre]

You were going to say Miami Heat.

[David Jacoby]

Oh, man. Thank you for finally bringing it to the spectacle of the sporting weekend. It was a great weekend for sports. It's basically sports equinox. You got a million things going on and I was positively dialed. Sound on to Miami of Ohio at Ohio.

[Mike Ryan]

A college basketball game in the hundreds. Them going back and forth at each other into overtime.

[David Jacoby]

I mean the lighting in the arena was terrible. It had a film on it when you were watching the game broadcast. And it was like another time. It was March basketball. It was everybody clear out of the way. We're giving it to the best player. Scrappy, number 13 in white, Pavelski, trying to hold on to this. This rivalry advantage that Ohio has had over Miami. Ohio. Miami, Ohio, undefeated this season in college basketball. Gunning for their 30th victory. Ohio had had victories over their rival, I think dating back at home since 2011. So this was a huge win streak. And the game friggin delivered back and forth the entire time. Heroic shot making absolute cags from each team and such hate from the Ohio attendees that at the end of it has Jeff Goodman tweeted. Because at the end of it there were mother bleeps and bleep yous and smiling faces. Hidden meetings, projectiles. It was a scene. I loved it. It was the best basketball game I'd seen this year.

[Mike Ryan]

Miami of Ohio against Ohio. Ohio was a small dog in the game. Miami of Ohio ends a perfect season Zaslow that nobody believes is going anywhere in the tournament because They've had the 300th toughest schedule or something like that. The last time I checked it was at 280 and they're an undefeated team playing against Ohio on the road. And they're just a four point favorite because everyone knows that team is not all that good. Even though it's undefeated, they are not

[David Jacoby]

favored to win their conference. Akron is.

[Mina Kimes]

Whatever. If you're undefeated, you make the tournament. If you don't lose, if you're. You're playing Division 1 basketball and you don't lose a single game in your regular season, you deserve to be in

[Pablo Torre]

the tournament in one college sport.

[David Jacoby]

Yeah, but it has so much juice to it. And they've had several of these games where they survive when you don't think they are.

[Mina Kimes]

That's a fun story. It's also a TV show like, like when the committee is making their selections this weekend. You don't think that's going to have some juice to it. Miami of Ohio first round game Thursday or Friday the following week. That game's got some, that game's got some juice to it. I want to check that out.

[David Jacoby]

And they got this like little. You would think that the underdog, undefeated Miami Ohio team would be beloved, but they've been villains. I don't want them to continue to be undefeated. And now I'm kind of come around like, I rock with these guys. They're trying to be bad guys when no one believes in them. They're trying to bully round when they're four and a half feet tall. It's great to see.

[Mina Kimes]

Who would you rather have in the tournament, undefeated Miami of Ohio or 15 loss Auburn? Like, get the hell out of here. Get the hell out of here.

[Mike Ryan]

When Mike Ryan says no one believes in them. I saw him wandering around during our break trying to get someone to believe him. That the Ben Shapiro eyebrow situation wasn't photoshopped, dropped, wasn't altered by others. There's no way, Mike, this can't be real.

[Mina Kimes]

It's not real.

[David Jacoby]

I have multiple. I have videos from his social media selfie videos.

[Mina Kimes]

Videos are never fake.

[David Jacoby]

He posted this himself.

[Mina Kimes]

He has Tom Selleck's mustache above each eye.

[Pablo Torre]

That.

[David Jacoby]

That is a selfie video that he posted.

[Mina Kimes]

That is not real. Like, how do you even get eyebrows like that? Nobody says, hey, I'm a grow out my eyebrows.

[Mike Ryan]

That's not a thing.

[Mina Kimes]

You can't just like, you can grow out your hair, you can grow out your beard. You don't grow out eyebrows.

[Mike Ryan]

Put it on the poll, please. At Lebaton, does Ben Shapiro have Tom Selleck's mustache over each one of his eyes? This doesn't seem.

[Mina Kimes]

Dan, that's not real.

[Mike Ryan]

Like it can be real. Occasionally someone will send me a picture or A video of me that day that Ron McGill said that I looked like a Papi Chullo when I was just doing an impersonation of somebody who had done a fake, highly questionable with me and Bomani. And I had just painted on my eyebrows and on my mustache something so very dark as to clearly be fake. I saw over the weekend, I saw a Hispanic crooner of some sort, an old guy singing with Tony Bennett who had. Yes, thank you. That's him right there. Look at that, Zaslow. Which is the more egregious offense between those two people? I am remiss in not knowing who. Latin legend.

[Mina Kimes]

Well, yeah, see, that's the thing. That guy's eyebrows. He may have been born with those eyebrows.

[Pablo Torre]

That's.

[Mina Kimes]

That may be just how he looks. Ben Shapiro, all the day, all of a sudden is showing up with a bush above each eye. It's not real.

[David Jacoby]

It is real. All the videos are real. I understand the skepticism. I shared in it. And then I researched the Internet for 15 minutes to try to find evidence to the contrary. He dyes the eyebrows, but he also made them bushier. It's irrefutable.

[Pablo Torre]

Gender affirming care.

[Mike Ryan]

My mother has rarely been more frustrated with my father than when it is that he would go from totally gray at work. When he was an industrial engineer and the plant manager for a fiberglass company in Hialeah, he would go from totally gray to looking the following day like this Latin crooner because he had painted everything black.