Hour 2: Best Stugotz Dismissal (feat. DeMaurice Smith)

Summary

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The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Hour 2: Best Stugotz Dismissal (feat. DeMaurice Smith)

Aired: August 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode blends two main themes:

1. Celebrating "Best Stugotz Dismissal" – A tongue-in-cheek look at Stugotz’s signature style of sports pundit apathy, featuring his best/worst hot takes and dismissals from the past year.
2. Interview with DeMaurice Smith – The long-serving former NFLPA Executive Director joins to discuss his new book (“Turf Wars: The Fight for the Soul of America’s Game”) and offers candid insights into league power dynamics, union battles, owner egos, lingering regrets, and the business of football.

Episode tone: irreverent, self-aware, heartfelt, witty, and at times, incisive.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

I. The “Best Stugotz Dismissal” Hall of Fame ([01:38]–[09:53])

- Setup and Context ([01:38])

• Greg Cody notes the show’s penchant for “actively enraging” its own members as content and sets up the bit: a roll call of Stugotz’s most absurd, aggressive, or dismissive takes.

- The Nominees (Rapid-Fire Dismissals) ([02:38]–[09:53])

• Sequence of Stugotz’s annual “lifetime achievement award dismissals” across the sports world. Each take is delivered with his trademark mix of bluster, irony, and exasperation.

Highlights:

• David Samson – “Who’s asking for more Samson? Nobody, is the answer.” (Dan Le Batard, [02:59])
• Lionel Messi in MLS
  Stugotz on Messi scoring a hat trick: "He is playing in a lesser league. I mean, only the world's greatest soccer player could do it. It's like doing it against children." ([03:05])
• Robert Saleh – “Robert Saleh should be fired. I would've fired him today.” (Dan, [03:24])
• Bill O’Brien (re: head coach dream): “You know what the B in Bill O’Brien stands for? Bullshit. Nobody…has ever dreamed of being the head coach of Boston College.” (Dan, [04:04])
• Chris Paul – “20 years, played 82 games, huh? No rings. What’s more impressive…who cares?” ([04:24])
• Mike Vrabel – “He’s an overrated coach. The fact that we’re treating him like Hank Stram is absurd.” (Dan, [04:39])
• Shohei Ohtani – “Do it in a big spot…do it before the game is out of reach.” ([05:13])
• Leagues Starting Seasons Overseas
  Stugotz: “Start your season in the United States and end your season in the United States. Dublin does not deserve to get college football’s opener.” ([05:32])
• Philadelphia Eagles fans – “I don’t care what Philadelphia is tired of. I’m tired of their fan base.”
  Rant targets specific radio hosts: Spike Eskin and Angelo Cataldi ([06:08])
• Cooper Flagg – “Get out of here. That guy is not good enough…NBA, for me, his game does not trade.” ([06:57])
• Draymond Green – “That guy has no reason to be as confident as he is. Steph Curry’s his reason. Put him on the Wizards, what kind of career does Draymond Green have?”
  Greg Cody and Tony push back, Dan: "He’d be a Shanghai Shark." ([07:37])
• Simone Biles – “She won gold for simply being Simone Biles…Dan, I need you to stick the landing. I don’t like any hops, okay?” ([08:19])
• Luka Doncic-Anthony Davis trade – “This is a nothing trade…two middling teams and two superstars who barely play.” ([09:02])

Memorable Moment:
Throughout, DeMaurice Smith can be heard howling in the background at some of the more absurd references, notably likening Mike Vrabel to Hank Stram.

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II. DeMaurice Smith Interview ([12:34]–[42:26])

Books, Burnout, and Big Egos

- Post-NFLPA Life and Relief ([13:04])

• “You know, I didn’t know how beat up I was until I got done with the job…not having the daily stress…I know it’s going to come as a shock, my bff Roger Goodell and I don’t spend as much time together.”
  — DeMaurice Smith ([13:27])

• Reflects on his 14 years as NFLPA head, joking about his two-a-day workouts now, and relief from constant tumult.

- Owners and Goodell: Petulance and Power ([13:54]–[16:30])

• On NFL Owners:
  “These owners to a certain extent are among the most petulant people I have ever met. I mean…I would expect in a junior high school, you know, ring.”
  — Smith ([14:34])

• On Goodell:
  “He literally works for those guys. So at the end of the day, he has to deliver for some of the people who can just be petty.”

• On which owner he respected:

  • Robert Kraft: smart and big-picture (“Robert will press you up against the wall and try to take it from you”)
  • The late Mr. Rooney: “really good to me before he passed”
  • Admits: “Other than that, I think I’m out of good guys. There’s not a lot of good guys, my friend.” ([15:52])

- Media Critiques and Union Myths ([16:30]–[18:07])

• On ESPN reporting (Wickersham & Van Natta):

  • Defends himself: “Never a day in my life that I didn’t go to the frickin’ line for our guys.” ([16:46])
  • Criticizes journalists for citing off-the-record billionaire sources.

• On recent union “disarray” post-Smith:
  “Miss me yet?…I never shied away from the war that has to happen between players and management.”

  • Warns: League is “done” paying pensions in future CBAs.
  • The next fight is over the 18th game: “If the players aren’t ready to fight for $2.5–3 billion for that game, the league is going to bring the fight to them.” ([18:07])

- Why Revenue Can't Always Be Tied to Team Valuations ([20:13])

• Explains that franchise valuations only matter when teams are sold, making it an unreliable metric for collective bargaining.
• Prediction: private equity’s arrival in the NFL is bad news for coaches, staff, and facilities.

“Private equity is interested in coming in and cutting overhead. Coaches’ salaries, employee salaries, facilities are all overhead.” — DeMaurice Smith ([21:20])

- The Most Difficult Crises and Owner Cowardice ([21:59])

• Kaepernick/Anthem protests:
  • “Players at their best, owners at their worst.”
  • Praises players for wise, calm conversations about race, class, and politics while owners distanced themselves.
  • On Goodell’s public change-of-heart press conference: “I am not sure he had the owner’s authority to do it. I think he did it on his own.” ([24:03])

- The Kaepernick Martyrdom and NFL History ([25:04])

• On Kaepernick: “We represented Kaepernick. We fought for him. He was not the last martyr for the National Football League.”
  • Draws historical parallels to other player-civil rights battles.
  • “When has [success and civil rights] come without someone paying a sacrifice?” ([25:11])

- The Reality and Import of Collusion ([26:18])

• On reading collusion details after leaving office:
  • “What hurt was…that was a moment when I would have filed another grievance on behalf of every player in the NFL.”
  • “This is a game of leverage…NFL owners push you to the wall.”
  • Only the union and “ability to wage an unmitigated warfare campaign that usually involves litigation” can stand up to owners. ([27:43])

- On Player Leverage and Strikes ([27:40])

• Parallels drawn to MLB and NBA union battles; labor strength comes from unity and legal pressure.

- On Current NFLPA Tactics and Willpower ([31:09])

• Won’t second-guess the current union, but advises:
  • Players should bring the fight earlier (into OTAs) because most go “for free.”
  • “I think tactically sometimes it would make sense to bring the fight to the NFL a little bit earlier.” ([32:37])

- Interlude: Movies, Dogs & TV Recommendations ([32:46]–[35:29])

• Asks DeMaurice about the new Superman movie; he replies he loves any superhero movie with a dog.
  • “Any movie where there’s a good guy and he’s got a dog, I’m in.” — DeMaurice Smith ([33:03])
• Recs: Dan likes “Bloodline”; Smith: “I’m watching Family Matters. It’s a rerun. Don’t watch it.”
• Light-hearted banter on movie choices, illustrating DeMaurice’s lighter post-career persona.

- Exploring NFL CBA Regrets and Strategy ([35:39])

• On 10-year CBA deals:
  • Pushback on academics critiquing them.
  • Argues a long deal’s strength:
    • “If we don’t have a 10-year deal, how do we get through Covid?”
    • “The length of those deals allowed the League to…absolutely crush those television deals, meaning more salary for players…”

- NFL in London/Internationalization ([37:58])

• On possibility of Super Bowl in London:
  • “I like London. Will I go the week leading up to it…? I’m always there for you, champion.”
  • Dryly jokes that “watching a movie in London, it’s the same language as watching in the States.”

- Quick Fire Personal Reflections

([38:33]–[42:21])

• Biggest “killer” owner? “Robert Kraft” ([38:40])
• Closest to a physical fight with a player? “Never. There’s a strict touching, no touching of D rule.”
• Angriest player at him? “Richard Sherman” — “We would have knock-down, drag-out fights…and I loved every one of it.” ([38:59])
• Closest to a fight with an owner? “[Jerry Richardson] called me ‘uppity’ at a meeting in front of people… He deserves a good old country slap, right?” ([40:10])
  • Details a meeting where Richardson was condescending to Peyton Manning; Smith describes players’ anger being more for Manning than for himself.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stugotz Dismissals Montage

  • “Only the greatest soccer player could do that. It’s like doing it against children.” (Stugotz on Messi, [03:05])
  • “Bill O’Brien…Bullshit. Nobody…has ever dreamed of being the head coach of Boston College.” (Dan, [04:04])

• On NFL Owners:

  • “Among the most petulant people I have ever met…everything I would expect in a junior high school.” (DeMaurice Smith, [14:34])

• On Collusion:

  • “The owners engage in collusion as a way of business. If an arbitrator gives you a ruling…that’s when you light the fuse.” (Smith, [33:30])

• On Kaepernick:

  • “He was not the last martyr for the NFL…there is success and the protection of civil rights, [but] when has it come without someone paying a sacrifice?” (Smith, [25:11])

• On Owner Pettiness:

  • “You’ve got guys who are owners destroying each others’ suites. You got one owner pouring beer on one of his fans…” (Smith, [14:34])

• On length of CBA:

  • “A 10-year deal makes it that a collective bargaining agreement is impervious to the owners coming back and taking things away from you.” (Smith, [35:54])

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Episode Flow & Tone

The episode kicks off with chaos and comedy—a raucous showcase of “best Stugotz dismissals”—before pivoting to a candid and comprehensive interview with DeMaurice Smith. The tone oscillates between witty irreverence (mocking the sports hot-take ecosystem), honest labor movement war stories filled with behind-the-scenes NFL intrigue, and warm, reflective moments about moving on from the weight of major institutional battles. Humorous pivots to movies and TV keep the conversation human and accessible, and Smith’s natural charisma stands out throughout.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• You’ll laugh at the absurdity and sharpness of Stugotz’s “dismissals” and the panel’s banter.
• The DeMaurice Smith interview is a must-hear for anyone curious about the real power and pressure at the top of NFL labor negotiations, the dynamics of billionaires and leagues, and how the business is shifting.
• Smith’s candor and wit—about owners, players, and even his media critics—provide thoughtful, sometimes sobering perspective on the future fight for player rights and football’s soul.

Episode MVP: DeMaurice Smith’s resilience, stories, and sense of humor—even on his hardest days in the sport’s trenches.

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Key Timestamps

• Best Dismissals Begin: [02:38]
• DeMaurice Smith Interview Starts: [12:34]
• Smith on NFL Owners: [14:34]
• On Collusion and Kaepernick: [25:11]–[27:43]
• Rapid Fire Reflections (“Biggest Killer,” “Angriest Player”): [38:33]–[42:21]

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

New season, new chaos in college football.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Let's go. Big stage, big opportunity.

[Dan Le Batard]

This Labor Day weekend, the wildness lives on ABC, ESPN and the all new ESPN app. What a way to start. Featuring top 10 teams like Clemson, Notre Dame, Alabama and LSU. And Bill Belichick's debut at North Carolina. It's so special when these teams collide. Don't miss a lineup filled with electric matchups. Welcome back to College Football Kickoff week, presented by Modelo. Labor Day weekend on ESPN and abc. Also available to stream on the all new ESPN Apple.

[DeMaurice Smith]

You say you'll never join the Navy.

[Dan Le Batard]

That you'd never track storms brewing in.

[DeMaurice Smith]

The Atlantic and skydiving could never be part of your commute. You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or fly so fast you break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Start your [e-mail] America's Navy forged by the sea. Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping. Oh, come on. They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool. Whatever. You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levator show with the Stugats podcast.

[Greg Cody]

Demorris Smith has written a book. He will be joining us here in moments. I don't believe the shipping container has recovered yet from the eruption of Mount Cody. Everyone's shaking their heads. They're shaken. We were just talking during the break. Greg Cody is still seething. He doesn't understand why his computer wasn't immediately just brought right back to him. And I'm like, well, that would have been awkward and against the show being interesting if we had just brought you your computer earlier. But he will hold on to this for months. And it's okay we actively enrage him as a form of content. Another person around here who is perpetually enraged at an assortment of things going on in sports is Stugatz. We've got a category all his own. We've got a separate dismissals category for everyone else.

[DeMaurice Smith]

But.

[Greg Cody]

But this is the lifetime achievement award, the Stugot's dismissal, which is the best from the last year.

[Stugatz]

And now the SUI nominees for best Stugats dismissal. Stugots dismisses David Sampson way too much.

[Dan Le Batard]

David, by the way, I came in here thinking Greg Cody was going to be a Greg Cody Tuesdays. I left five, six weeks ago, and it was Greg. Greg Cody every Tuesday. And now we replace that with who's asking for more? Sampson.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Wow.

[Dan Le Batard]

Nobody is the answer. Wow.

[Stugatz]

Stugot dismisses Lionel Messi. Playing in MLS, you can't have a.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hat trick in 11 minutes. I mean, it's impossible. He is playing in a lesser league. I mean, only the world's greatest soccer player could do. It's like doing it against children.

[Tony]

Well, that's. I mean, I think you kind of gave the answer away. Only the greatest soccer player could do that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Do it in a real league.

[Stugatz]

Stu Gus dismisses Robert Sala.

[Dan Le Batard]

Robert Sala should be fired. They're gonna wait. If he loses a couple more games, I would have fired him today.

[Greg Cody]

There we go.

[Dan Le Batard]

Damn. What if Belichick calls? What do you mean?

[Tony]

Did you got Will Levis, your Woody.

[Dan Le Batard]

Johnson and Bill Belichick, did he drop the phone today? I would fire him today so bad. Listen, for a quarterback, you hire this coach, Robert Saleh, you get Aaron Rodgers. You don't have to worry about the offense because Rogers handles the offense.

[Tony]

You have to worry about the offense.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not with Rogers there. Salah comes in, okay? And he's in charge of the defense. And that defense that he's in charge of has given up 28 plus points in six of the last nine games. Fire him yesterday.

[Greg Cody]

Okay, Very good.

[Stugatz]

Stu Guts dismisses Bill o' Brien's sincerity.

[Dan Le Batard]

Bill o' Brien said he's always dreamed of being the head coach at Boston College. You know what the B and Bill o' Brien stands for? Dan. Bullshit. Nobody, and I mean nobody in the history of football has ever dreamed of being the head coach of Boston College.

[Stugatz]

Stas dismisses Chris Paul.

[Dan Le Batard]

20 years, played 82 games, huh? No rings. What's more impressive, 20 years no rings or 20 years playing 82 games? Who cares about the fact that he played 82 games?

[Stugatz]

I mean, seriously, St dismisses Mike Vrabel.

[Dan Le Batard]

Big Mike Vrabel. What has he ever done? And seriously, I want to know the amount of coaches who have gone 13 and 21 over two seasons in the NFL because that's how Mike Vrabel finished in Tennessee. And he was 2 and 3 in the postseason, and he's 02 in his last two postseason games. We are talking about Mike Vrabel like the Patriots just signed Vince Lombardi to be their head coach. What are we doing? He is an overrated coach. And the fact that we're treating him like Hank Stram is absurd.

[Stugatz]

Sugas dismisses Shohei Ohtani and as it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Relates to Ohtani, do me a favor. Do it in a big spot. I'm do it with nobody on. All this guy does is produce when guys are on base. Do it when no one's on. No, he's right. And do it before the game is out of reach.

[Stugatz]

To Gus dismisses leagues starting their seasons overseas.

[Dan Le Batard]

We need to start college football in the United States. I don't like this. Like Dublin has. Dan, I am serious about this. Okay? Start your season in the United States and your season in the United States. I don't hear about it. Dublin does not deserve to get college football's opener. Okay? They don't. And baseball, same thing. I don't want the season to start in China and in the United States. I want it to start here, end here, Japan, wherever they're playing games. I don't want it. Why are we giving the start of our seasons away to different countries?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Why?

[Stugatz]

Sugas dismisses the Philadelphia Eagles fan base.

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't care what Philadelphia is tired of. I'm tired of their fan base. How does that sound? They wanted to fire Nick Sirianni like a month or two ago and now they're all celebrating Nick Sirianni. He is the greatest coach in Eagles history. I said it better than Andy Reid, better than Dick Vermeil. This is the fourth consecutive season he has led this team to the playoffs. He's the only Eagles coach in Eagles history to do that. First four seasons go into the playoffs. He was a play away from beating Andy Reid and and Patrick Mahomes in a Super Bowl. I don't care about what Philadelphia fans think about anything. And I'm talking to you, Spike Eskin. And I'm talking to you, Angelo Cataldi. I don't care what you have to say. You wanted to fire Nick Sirianni 35 days ago. And I'm not going to allow you to celebrate Nick Sirianni moving forward. How about that?

[Stugatz]

Stugust dismisses Cooper Flag.

[Dan Le Batard]

Cooper Flagg is a nice player. Cooper Flag is a good college basketball player. But teams tanking their NBA season to get Cooper Flag because they think he's going to fix their NBA organization. Get out of here. That guy is not good enough. I am not impressed with Cooper Flag. Not from an NBA standpoint. From a college standpoint, he's fine. He's one of the best players in the country. NBA. For me, his game does not trade.

[Greg Cody]

He's the consensus number one pick.

[Tony]

I don't care I mean, number.

[Dan Le Batard]

Number one picks have gone wrong before, Dan, and they'll go wrong again. I mean, I would say, if you look over the course of time, that more number one picks haven't worked out than have worked out. How about that?

[Stugatz]

Stas dismisses Draymond Green.

[Dan Le Batard]

That guy has no reason to be as confident as he is. I mean, seriously, he's got a lot of reasons. Steph Curry's his reason.

[Greg Cody]

Stu.

[Dan Le Batard]

Gods, put him on the Wizards, Dan. What kind of career does Draymond Green have? Seriously.

[Greg Cody]

Draymond Green.

[Dan Le Batard]

Right place, right time.

[Stugatz]

Fair.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you. It's not the rational confidence.

[DeMaurice Smith]

He ain't wrong.

[Dan Le Batard]

He had nothing to do with the winning. I mean, guys, he.

[Greg Cody]

He is wrong. He is an unprecedented defensive player.

[Dan Le Batard]

Right?

[Greg Cody]

Like there. There has never been another basketball player, right, who plays that defense at that size.

[Dan Le Batard]

Now put him in Washington.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Wow.

[Stugatz]

Literally the best ever is what you're saying, right?

[Dan Le Batard]

He'd be a Shanghai Shark.

[Stugatz]

I mean, Stu Gus dismisses Simone Biles.

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't want to say this like I love Simone Biles. I do. I really do. All right? I get how great she is, the athleticism. She's amazing. Everything she's been through, I get it. But she wanted gold on the vault for simply being Simone Biles. Here's what I like with the vault. Dan, I need you to stick the landing. I don't like any hops, okay? And Simone Biles hopped on both her vaults, And Rebecca did 12 and a half feet in the air. I don't care how high you jump. I don't care how many twists and turns you do. You need to stick the landing. I'm telling you, if Rebecca. Okay, if she does the same vault as Simone Biles and Biles does Rebecca's. You know who wins?

[Stugatz]

Biles Sugas dismisses the Luka Doncic Anthony Davis trade.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is a nothing trade. It's big names. I understand why it's news. It's a nothing trade. The Lakers are not winning an NBA title anytime soon. The Mavericks are not winning an NBA title anytime soon. In fact, I would tell you the bigger trade made yesterday in the NBA was the one that got the spurs the Aaron Fox. You want to know why that team might win all the championships soon? This is not a trade. That land you Kareem Abdul Jabbar. This is not getting Moses MALONE if you're Dr. J and the Sixers the missing piece. And then they went fo, fo, fo, fo. This is not that. This is a trade. Again with two middling teams and two superstars who barely play.

[DeMaurice Smith]

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[DeMaurice Smith]

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[DeMaurice Smith]

Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Tony]

Hey Tony.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Hey Mike.

[Tony]

Hey, man. Summer's almost ending, man. I like that.

[DeMaurice Smith]

There's no way.

[Tony]

There's no way I am excited about cooler temperatures. But down here in South Florida, that just means slightly less boiling hot. It's been a pretty incredible summer. We've had a parade down here. We've grown our family down here at Meadowlark Media. A lot of exciting things, a lot of memorable benchmarks. And along the way, at almost every step, I've been tailed by that beautiful white can of Miller Lite. Oh, that beautiful white or the brown bottle? You can do it on draft.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Tony]

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[Commercial Voice]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Don LeBatard I had Rachel and Emma both home and I was in a fight with Rachel and I said, if you roll your eyes one more time, there's gonna be a problem. A big problem. And she said, really? What are you gonna do? Stugats.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Oh, God damn.

[Greg Cody]

I mean, that's where I didn't have an answer.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with.

[DeMaurice Smith]

The st.

[Greg Cody]

That is a loaded category. It always is. I think that's the fifth or sixth straight year that Stugatz has done that to Chris Paul. DeMora Smith was listening to some of that. He howled with laughter at Hank stram. He served 14 years as the head of the NFL Players association and he's written a book, Turf wars the Fight for the Soul of America's Game. And look at him right now. Greg Cody. That is a man who looks like he is relieved and radiant that he no longer has to deal with any of that bullshit.

[DeMaurice Smith]

It is so good. Well, I got rid of 2A days for the players, but I do 2A days myself now. So that's how good things are.

[Greg Cody]

You're exercising twice a day, are you?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Look at that.

[Greg Cody]

You're showing off the guns.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Always the guns, bro. Just bring the guns.

[Dan Le Batard]

Nice.

[Greg Cody]

How much have you enjoyed getting out of the rat race? How much relief is there to not have the daily headaches, the daily complaints?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Brother, you know, I didn't know how. I didn't know how beat up I was until I got done with the job. You look, I loved it. It was, it was almost 15 years. Okay, loved it. Was way too strong. Let's just, let's just pump the brakes on. Loved it. I enjoyed it. But yeah, not being there and not having the daily stress and I know it's going to come as a shock. You know, my bff, Roger Goodell and I don't spend as much time together. I miss that. I missed that.

[Greg Cody]

He can be crude and he can be cruel. What is the worst of it when you've had a back and forth with him?

[DeMaurice Smith]

You know, Roger, you know, if you read the book and I'm not going to spoil the ending, I think Roger does better in the book than I ever thought he would at times. As you know, he can just be tough and, you know, angry and sometimes a little bit petulant. You know, he is a smart guy, but he is just a tough guy to deal with day in, day out. Just tough.

[Greg Cody]

Is it because he and the league's owners are arrogant?

[DeMaurice Smith]

I mean, these owners to a certain extent are among the most petulant people I have ever met. I mean, look, you've got guys who are owners who are destroying each other's suites. You got one owner pouring beer on one of his fans. A couple of years ago, owners were flipping off each other from, from across the stadium. I mean, it's everything that I would expect in a, in a junior high school, you know, Ring. But I think it's tough for Roger because he literally works for those guys. So at the end of the day, he literally has to deliver. For some of the people who can just be petty, I mean, look, look at what's going on in Dallas. Can there be a more petty petulant display of, of, you know, what we now know is the business of football? I mean, I can't figure out what.

[Stugatz]

When you refer to owners as a cabal of greedy billionaires who control the league, is there an exception to that rule? Like, like who were the owners that you most respected or who were the least greedy?

[Greg Cody]

The examples you all gave were tepper, by the way. Every example you felt like all three.

[Dan Le Batard]

Of those things are all temper, right?

[Stugatz]

Who's the exception?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Look, Robert is, Robert Kraft is, is probably one of the best that I ever had to deal with because he's ruthlessly smart. He cares about the big picture of the NFL. Now at the same time, don't get it twisted, man. Robert will press you up against the wall and try to take it from you. I mean, just, just so you know. But you know, of the people that I liked working with, you know, the former Mr. Rooney was really good to me before he passed. Other than that, I think I'm out of, I think I'm out of good guys. There's not a lot of good guys, my friend.

[Greg Cody]

Well, so let me, let me ask you this question because ESPN portrayed you as an asset to the owners and you spent five pages in your book saying that Wickersham and Vanada were owners in, they were in their hip pocket. So who's telling the truth there?

[DeMaurice Smith]

I mean, look, I'm not going to get, get into a he said, you know, she said. I'm the he said though. Of course. But I'm not going to get into that with, with those guys. Here's what I didn't like about the article. I spent over three, maybe four hours talking to Seth and Van. They write a big piece. I think I'm in that article for almost, you know, less than one fifth of their, their private sources. And the other thing I didn't like about the article is, look, I mean, you know, we've been around this track for a long time. I was never unwilling to come out and exactly lay it on the line, go ten toes to the line for the National Football League players. Never a day in my life that I didn't go to the frickin line for our guys. I had a problem with the fact that the article shrouded a bunch of billionaires in secrecy. And if those guys wanted to lend their names to the article and meet me toe to toe, fine. But there was only one dude in the article, for the most part, who went on the record, and everybody else was stuck in the shadows. And by the way, if that's the way that they want to write an article, more power to him. I like Don. I think he is a very, very good journalist. I just didn't happen to like that piece very much.

[Greg Cody]

What do you make of all the recent reporting that Pablo and Don Van Nada have done about the disarray that the union is in now that you are gone?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Miss me yet? I mean, you know, this is a very, very hard job. And I never shied away from the war that has to happen between players and management. I mean, again, I'm not talking to anybody who doesn't know the history in the National Football League. 20 years of litigation for free agency, 15 years of fighting. Everything from Kaepernick to Bounty to Ray Rice to Deflategate fights about COVID When I took the job, the head of the league's concussion committee was a rheumatologist. So at the end of the day, I mean, it's easy to kind of portray someone as maybe in the back pocket of the owners. I'll tell you one thing, there isn't a dude on the other side of the owners who was unhappy to see me leave. And I think at the end of the day, the job of the executive director at the NFL Players association better be one where you understand that this is a group of 31 killers. And these guys will not only make you take everything that you're entitled to, but you better be able to fight them for taking things away from you. And if the players don't get their heads around the fact that when this CBA comes up, the league is done paying pensions. Done. They don't want to pay pensions anymore because literally no Fortune 550 company is paying pensions anymore. They're done paying pensions. The league bought the 17th game for something like $1.6 billion over 10 years. That means the 18th game has to be worth about $2.5 billion. If the players aren't ready to fight for 2.5 to $3 billion for that game, the league is going to bring the fight to them.

[Greg Cody]

Did you consider tying the cap to not only revenue, but valuations?

[DeMaurice Smith]

It's hard, Dan, because here's the problem with valuations. On average, a professional sports team only comes up for sale around every eight to 10 years. I know that Forbes does a valuation every year, but that's a non realized valuation. So it's easy to say that we can try to tie it to valuation, but if that valuation is an asset that does not get sold or otherwise does not get traded, it's hard to tie a monetary amount to that valuation so that it actually becomes part of the revenue that goes to players. So I get it. I get the thoughts about valuation and everything, but it's really, really hard to do. I mean, look how long it took for private equity to get into the business of the NFL. But over the next few years, we're going to see how that plays out. And I'm just making a prediction. Private equity ownership in the National Football League is not going to benefit coaches. It is not going to benefit the facilities. It is not going to benefit the people who work for those teams. Because private equity is interested in coming in and cutting overhead and coaches salaries, employee salaries, facilities are all overhead. So at the end of the day, we'll see how private equity happens in the National Football League. But if I were a group of coaches right now who don't have a union, I would be sweating bullets right now.

[Greg Cody]

The name of the book is Turf wars, the Fight for the Soul of America's Game. When you mention those crises that you mentioned, what was the worst of them for you?

[DeMaurice Smith]

I think the worst was the worst from just a pure frame was probably somewhere between Kaepernick and Anthem. And here's why it was the worst. Because I think we saw the players at their best and I think we saw the owners at their worst. So you know, if you wanted to kind of describe it, it was tough because of that tension in the middle. I will tell you that during the anthem, I was never prouder of our players. Why? Because while the country was literally throwing chairs at each other in town halls, you went to or I went to every team facility and guys were having great conversations about race, class, politics, gender, police brutality. And it was calm. It was absolutely calm. And this was coming from a group of players where the average age is under 28 years old. The flip side of that is when the league allowed this narrative to turn on the players without really stepping up to protect them until one moment, and I'll talk about it into a second, but the league allowing the narrative to turn against these players without the owners of the National Football League standing up to either protect their players or to protect their brand was the first time that I saw the owners knuckle under and that that was literally the textbook of the day. Until, if you remember, Roger gave a press conference from his house. I mean, it looked like he was in a bunker, but each his own. But if you remember, Roger did a press conference from his house saying that he got it wrong about Anthem and he got it wrong about the league. And here's the deal. I am not sure he had the owner's authority to do it. I think he did it on his own. But that's my.

[Greg Cody]

He only did it, though, because Mahomes put his voice on. On it. Like it didn't that happen hours after Mahomes said said something?

[DeMaurice Smith]

It may have, but remember it. It also happened way after all the players took a knee after. After President Trump's statement in Huntsville, Alabama. It was way after, you know, players unified on that weekend and everybody knelt. So I think Patrick lending his voice was. Was huge. But let's be real, one player lending his voice doesn't necessarily mean that the commissioner of the National Football League decides to act. I think they were both courageous. It's probably the last thing nice thing I'll say about Roger on the show because I have a limit. Right? I mean, you can't say more than two things because then people, then people will think that, you know, I'm a shill for the owners. But no, I think Roger coming out and saying what he said was a pretty brave thing.

[Greg Cody]

How haunted are you personally that Kaepernick's career was ended forever a martyr on your watch.

[DeMaurice Smith]

It's a tough one. I mean, look, we represented Kaepernick. We fought for him. I think that he was not the last martyr for the National Football League. I don't believe that. I think in the future there's going to be players who are going to stand up and pay the price. But, Dan, you know, John Mackey was a martyr for the National Football League as well. Dave Magosy was a martyr for the National Football League as well. All those players who sued for free agency between 1972 and 1993, many of them lost their jobs. But the reality is there is their success and the protection of civil rights and literally the anything that we want to fight for in this country, when has it come without someone paying a sacrifice?

[Greg Cody]

Put us next to you the moments that you're reading the details that Pablo Torre reported on. Yes, absolutely, there was collusion, even though an arbiter ruled that there was not collusion.

[DeMaurice Smith]

That was tough to read because I filed the lawsuit before I left. I wasn't there for the judgment. I had never read it until Pablo and Mike Florio's show. Well, first of all, it didn't come to me as a surprise because after all, I filed the grievance in the first place. What hurt was that was a moment when I would have filed another grievance on behalf of every player in the National Football League, going back as far as the statute of limitations and the facts would have allowed me. I think at the end of the day, that collusion ruling is as significant as the collusion ruling after the 1992 case of the NFL players against the National Football League. I really think that that decision was as important as that 1992 case of Freeman McNeil. And if you remember, it was that case that led to the class action where Reggie White was the lead plaintiff, among others. This is a game of leverage. And the National Football League owners push you to the. It's a family show, right?

[Greg Cody]

You can let it fly, let it fly. It's fine.

[DeMaurice Smith]

The National Football League owners push you to the wall. And that is no different than the baseball owners in the 90s. It's no different than the NBA owners during their strikes, they push you to the wall. And the only leveler, the only thing that prevents them from running the players over is the collective strength of a union, number one. And as history and Marvin Miller told me, your ability to wage an unmitigating warfare campaign that usually involves litigation. And so everybody talks about the 1994 strike for the Major League Baseball players. And don't get me wrong, it was an incredible show of strength. But what happened in tandem to that was three collusion rulings that led up to that. And those collusion rulings against the Major League Baseball owners, coupled with the willingness of the players to fight, made that union at the time the largest and strongest sports union in the country.

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[DeMaurice Smith]

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[Commercial Voice]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Don LeBatard Football, Football Football Football Football.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Football.

[Dan Le Batard]

Two Guts this is the Dan Levatar show with the St. How do you feel about these holdings? I'm not a fan. I feel like if you were there still, you wouldn't be allowing players to be going and, you know, participating, semi participating in practice. I feel like you're starting to lose leverage. I feel like you, when you were in charge, you start like a colony in Antarctica and anyone's holding out, you send them there and keep them as far away from camp as possible.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Yeah, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna second guess strategy of the players because I'm not there. And I also think it's, it's not fair. I mean, I get to say whatever I want while I'm working out and usually the heavy bag gets more of me than than I get of the heavy bag. So I'm not going to second guess strategy. What I love though is that players are fighting and sometimes I wish that they would take the fight a little bit earlier to OTAs rather than waiting until training camp because as you Know, for most players in the National Football League, I would say most, except a handful, very few players in the National Football League have a workout bonus, which means that these players are going to OTAs for free.

[Dan Le Batard]

I know.

[DeMaurice Smith]

So I love the idea of the fight. I think tactically sometimes it would make sense to bring the fight to the National Football League a little bit earlier.

[Dan Le Batard]

Have you seen the new Superman movie?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Wow, talk about left, left field. Yes, I have. Don't know where this is going, but yeah, I dug it. I really liked it.

[Greg Cody]

Do you have any other follow up Zaslo? Is that all you had?

[Dan Le Batard]

Crypto? What do you make of crypto?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Look, I think any movie, superhuman, superhero movie with a dog. I dig it, man. I. I watched the old Roy Rogers shows when I was a kid, you know, and he had the dog. I like the John Wayne movie, the Cowboys where he had a dog. Any movie where there's a good guy and he's got a dog, I'm in.

[Greg Cody]

Put it on the poll at LeBatard show. Are you in on any movie where you've got a good guy and a dog? What stopped fully guaranteed contracts during CBA negotiations?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Well, I think according to the. Looking back at that ruling by the arbitrator, I mean, he ruled that the management council urged teams to not do fully guaranteed contracts. So at the end of the day, I mean, one of the reasons that again, this is not a second guessing, you asked me what I would do and you wanted to pretend that you were sitting by me when that ruling came out. You file a ruling because collusion is the way of being business for professional sports owners. It's the way of business. I mean, think about it. There was collusion in baseball. There was collusion in 1933 when the owners barred black players. There's collusion in the 1970s to prevent free agency. There was collusion in 2011 when they all locked the players out. The owners engage in collusion as a way of business. And if an arbitrator gives you a ruling that suggests that the people who are running the National Football League are engaged in collusion. I have one choice, and that's to light the fuse. Right?

[Dan Le Batard]

Have you seen the movie Weapons?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Wow. This guy's. I mean, I think the first thing you have to do is go off. Just go straight to decaf, man. Just go, Just go right to it. No, I have not seen weapons. I do want to see weapons. I want to see nobody, too.

[Greg Cody]

What are you most likely to watch? What on television are you watching these days?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Wait, I Have one question. Is there a dog in Nobody too?

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't know. I haven't seen nobody too yet.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Just ask it. Just ask it.

[Dan Le Batard]

You got some movie questions for me?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. What television show are you watching right now? Which one do you love?

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm watching Bloodline. Oh, good show. That's good show. That's a good show. Good show.

[DeMaurice Smith]

That's a good show.

[Greg Cody]

Is that Keith?

[DeMaurice Smith]

That's a good show. Yeah, yeah. I'm watching Family Matters. It's a rerun. Don't, don't watch it. So what was your question?

[Greg Cody]

I have other questions before we get you out of here. And Greg Cody does too. What are your greatest regrets? Do you regret in any way? Labor experts said 10 year deals aren't something that you make. So what is it that you regret? Is there anything?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Yeah, I don't know what labor person says that. I know it wasn't a dude who sat in the chair with me. I mean it's easy to sit in your, in your, you know, sit at your university and say, hey, 10 year deals are, are not good. I'll tell you one thing, if we don't have a 10 year deal, how do we get through Covid? Right. I mean, we were able to leverage the 10 year deal, the length of the deal to make sure that every player got paid their full salary. A 10 year deal makes it that a collective bargaining agreement is impervious to the owners coming back and taking things away from you. I think that's one of the things. And look, I teach all over the country and I have healthy debates with law professors and economists and a lot of people who teach, virtually none of them do. They all teach. And that's great. But when you're sitting in a chair and you understand the unilateral, uninhibited power of owners to take things away from you. Let's play it out. You sign a collective bargaining agreement for five years, two years are great. The third year somebody opts out. Year four, you spend all of your money in a war. For year five, you make it through the year five deal. Year six or year one of the new deal, now you're out of money. Year two, nobody likes the deal anymore. Year four, what are you out of money and unwilling to fight. So one of the things that the long term deals gave us is the largest, most uninhibited growth of a sports league in history. The year over year TV deals that really drive revenue in the National Football League. The length of those deals allowed the League to go in and apply absolutely crush those television deals, meaning more salary for players, but most importantly, the inability of the. Of arming the owners with leverage to take things away from you.

[Stugatz]

NFL is increasing its international stamp. Goodell refuses to rule out a Super bowl in London. Smart or bad.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Man? I like London. I mean, I'm not going to go to a Super bowl, but, you know, will I go the week leading up to it and do some. Do some fish and chips and maybe see a good movie or a show in London? I'm always there for you, champion. Always there for you.

[Dan Le Batard]

What movie you think.

[Stugatz]

But that's good for the league, though, to play a Super bowl in London or.

[DeMaurice Smith]

No, I mean, don't. Don't tell him. But watching a movie in London, it's the same language as watching it in the States.

[Greg Cody]

Fill in the blank here for me. Just quick answers. The owner that I think is the biggest killer is blank.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Biggest killer. Biggest killer Robert Kraft.

[Greg Cody]

The closest I came to a physical fight with a player was named Blank player Never.

[DeMaurice Smith]

There's a strict touching, no touching of D rule.

[Greg Cody]

The angriest a player was with me. His name was blank.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Richard Sherman.

[Greg Cody]

You want to give us the backstory there?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Richard is literally one of the, if not the, but one of the smartest players that's ever served on the executive committee. And we would have, you know, knock down, drag out fights. And you know what? I loved every one of it. I did. I loved every one of the fights we had with Richard because he's very passionate, he's very smart, and he's willing to again, go. Go ten toes to the line. So, you know, there were times when I'm sure I made him absolutely crazy. And I know that one of it was during. During COVID And I had to make a really quick decision about moving games because I forget what team it was that we had to move the game from Sunday to Monday or Tuesday because of an outbreak of. Of COVID I had to do it before I called the executive committee. He was upset about it. He was absolutely right. But it was also a call that I had to make. And so I'm not having any problem with. With Richard. But, man, I'll tell you what. Now I'm never getting a fight with NFL players. Those guys. Those guys just put you to sleep.

[Greg Cody]

The owner that you came closest to getting into a physical fight with was named.

[DeMaurice Smith]

I mean, probably. I'm not gonna kid you. I would have loved to lay a lick on Jerry Richardson when he called me a name at A meeting. I'm not gonna speak ill of the dead, but I guess I just did. But, you know, what are you gonna do? I mean, if somebody calls you a Slurpee, you know, they deserve a good old country slap, right?

[Stugatz]

Yep.

[Greg Cody]

He did what?

[DeMaurice Smith]

Called me uppity at a meeting in front of people. It was on his way walking out, and he has a Southern drawl, so maybe, you know, first of all, you know, it's hard to understand somebody who talks with marbles in their mouth. Okay. That's the second time I've spoken ill of the dead. I'm not gonna make it a third, but. Yeah, we were at a meeting in. I think we were at the super bowl, and it was a meeting where I had arranged for Peyton Manning to come to a negotiation meeting, which was supposed to be. Read the book. It's in Turf Wars. Read the book. But we were supposed to have a meeting. Literally, it was a meeting just to show the fans and everybody else that we were trying to get a deal done to avoid the lockout. And Jerry Richardson went after Peyton Manning in a way that I consider to be the most condescending conversation I've ever seen between an owner and a player. And the kicker was devolves. Just. Just. The meeting just goes absolutely crazy. And we get done. It's over. Everybody kind of stands up, and we're walking out, and they're walking out, and Jerry Richardson says. What Jerry Richardson says to me is, I'm walking out next to him. When I turn my back to get back to the table, the players are absolutely apoplectic. Apoplectic, apoplectic. And I'm thinking, oh, man, these guys are really coming to the defensive D. You know, that he was disrespected. The meeting. Oh, no. They were all apoplectic because Jerry Richardson was mad at Peyton Manning, so nobody gave a damn about D. Smith. Every player was pissed off that they had disrespected the. You know what some would consider the goat turf wars.

[Greg Cody]

The fight for the soul of America's game. Good seeing you, Demoris. Thank you for making the time for us.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Thank you, buddy. Always a pleasure.

[Greg Cody]

Likewise. Greg, are you done simmering? Are you in a better place? Because I have felt the heat off of you throughout the entirety of the last hour.

[Stugatz]

Happy as a clam. Don't worry about me. Look at my big, smiling face.

[Dan Le Batard]

Clam, you know it.

[Stugatz]

He knows I'm happy.

[Greg Cody]

Clam, you know it. Clam, you know it. Is what you offered us there, is it true?

[Stugatz]

Yeah, exactly.

[Greg Cody]

I think My favorite part of that was watching demorris face as Stugatz dismissed people at the start of this. The Hank Stram reference, I think it was.

[Tony]

You watch Superman. Hey, Tony.

[DeMaurice Smith]

Hey, Mike.

[Tony]

Hey, man. Summer's almost ending, man. I don't like that.

[DeMaurice Smith]

There's no way.

[Tony]

There's no way I am excited about cooler temperatures. But down here in South Florida, that just means slightly, slightly less boiling hot. It's been a pretty incredible summer. We've had a parade down here. We've grown our family down here at Meadowlark Media. A lot of exciting things, a lot of memorable benchmarks. And along the way, at almost every step, I've been tailed by that beautiful white can of Miller Light. Oh, that beautiful white or the brown bottle. You can do it on draft.

[Commercial Voice]

Draft is crisp.

[Tony]

There's been so many great special times. And each time I've decided to make those special times a Miller time. Whether it's a long weekend like one we got coming up or a full on vacation, it is a perfect time to get the crew back together. This year marks 50 years of Miller time. 50 years of great taste, great friends and unforgettable memories. Miller Lite great taste. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.