Hour 2: Enough With These Good Murderers (feat. Ronan Farrow)

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz – Episode Summary: "Hour 2: Enough With These Good Murderers" (feat. Ronan Farrow)
Release Date: March 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, hosts Dan Le Batard and Stugotz engage in a deep and insightful conversation with Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist Ronan Farrow. The discussion centers around Farrow's latest Audible original podcast, "Not a Very Good Murderer," where he delves into the complexities of journalism, fact-checking, and the pervasive issue of disinformation in today's media landscape.

Interview with Ronan Farrow

Exploring "Not a Very Good Murderer"
Ronan Farrow introduces his new podcast, "Not a Very Good Murderer" (01:30), emphasizing its focus on investigating severe and complex criminal cases rather than sensationalizing "good murderers." Farrow explains that the series does not fit neatly into one category, blending elements of true crime with an examination of journalistic integrity and the challenges of reporting in an era where trust in the media is declining.

The CeCe Doane Case
Farrow discusses his investigation into CeCe Doane, a former pageant queen implicated in a series of unsolved crimes, including arson and alleged attempts to hire hitmen to kill her ex-husbands. The conversation highlights the volatile relationship between Farrow and Doane, marked by intense interactions and Doane's aggressive behavior (02:12). Farrow underscores the broader implications of such cases on public perception and the spread of disinformation, particularly regarding controversial topics like election fraud and unfounded conspiracy theories.

Fact-Checking and Journalistic Challenges
The discussion delves into the meticulous fact-checking process Farrow employs, especially when dealing with unreliable or volatile sources. He underscores the importance of maintaining journalistic standards amidst a cultural backdrop where disinformation thrives. Farrow reflects on the societal impact of figures like Doane, who embody denial and misinformation, thereby influencing widespread public beliefs (05:33).

Impact of Political Climate on Oversight
Ronan Farrow elaborates on how political shifts, particularly under the Trump administration, have weakened federal oversight mechanisms essential for protecting whistleblowers and ensuring accountability within law enforcement agencies (13:17). He highlights specific examples of dismantled offices and reduced resources that have led to increased chances of corruption and unaddressed criminal activities, emphasizing the need for robust federal systems to uphold justice and transparency.

Notable Quotes:

• "This series doesn't neatly fall into one category. It's not one thing." — Ronan Farrow (02:12)
• "She represents someone who's at a lot of our dinner tables... steeped in the disinformation culture." — Ronan Farrow (05:33)
• "With the absence or diminishment of those systems, we're a lot more likely to see more cases like this go unchecked." — Ronan Farrow (13:17)

Banter and Light-Hearted Moments

While the core of the episode revolves around Farrow's investigative work, the hosts intersperse their conversation with light-hearted banter. A memorable segment involves a humorous exchange about fake books depicted as wallpaper, highlighting the show's signature blend of serious topics and entertaining dialogue (07:34 - 09:04). This playful interaction underscores the hosts' chemistry and ability to balance depth with levity.

Deep Dive into the Sean Williams Case

Farrow provides an in-depth analysis of his reporting on Sean Williams, an alleged serial rapist in Appalachian Tennessee. He details the systemic failures and potential corruption within local law enforcement that allowed Williams to evade justice for years (08:04). Farrow narrates the relentless efforts of Prosecutor Kat Dahl, whose pursuit of Williams despite significant obstacles highlights the broader issues of institutional neglect and the importance of federal oversight.

Case Highlights:

• Allegations Against Sean Williams: Multiple accusations including drugging, rape, and attempted murder (10:03).
• Prosecutor Kat Dahl's Struggles: Faced resistance and lack of support from local police, leading to prolonged legal battles and eventual escape by Williams from custody (10:03).
• Impact of Federal Oversight Cuts: Farrow connects the difficulties in prosecuting Williams to the broader dismantling of federal oversight agencies, advocating for their restoration to prevent similar cases in the future (13:17).

Notable Quotes:

• "This is why we need federal systems of oversight to protect people around the country." — Ronan Farrow (13:17)
• "It's a very complicated portrait of a family as well. She's been accused of being abusive by her kids." — Ronan Farrow (07:34)

Conclusion of the Interview

As the interview wraps up, Farrow reflects on the personal and societal ramifications of his work. He shares feedback from listeners who find the series cathartic and relatable, further emphasizing the cultural significance of addressing disinformation and accountability in journalism (07:34). The hosts express their admiration for Farrow's meticulous reporting and commitment to uncovering the truth despite daunting challenges.

Closing Remark:

• "It's just a really cathartic series for them to watch within that family." — Ronan Farrow (07:34)

Wrap-Up and Additional Segments

After the insightful interview, the show transitions back to its regular format, featuring discussions on sports, pop culture, and fan-favorite segments like the "Local Hour" focused on South Florida. While these segments provide entertainment and variety, the episode's highlight remains the profound conversation with Ronan Farrow, offering listeners a blend of investigative journalism and engaging dialogue.

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Key Takeaways:

• Ronan Farrow's "Not a Very Good Murderer" explores complex criminal cases with a focus on flawed journalism and systemic disinformation.
• The CeCe Doane case serves as a case study for examining media trust and the challenges of reporting on volatile sources.
• Political and institutional changes have significantly impacted federal oversight, increasing the likelihood of unchecked criminal activities.
• The episode skillfully balances serious investigative discussions with the show's characteristic humorous and engaging banter.

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This summary captures the essential discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

[Dan LeBatard]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Stugats]

Hear that? Spring is here and the Home Depot.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

Has great prices on grills to make this season yours.

[Stugats]

So if you're working on improving your hosting skills, you're going to want the next grill four burner gas grill for $229.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

And of course, pair it with the.

[Stugats]

Next grill eight piece grill tool. Now get outside and show off those new skills. Shop a wide selection of grills under $300 at the home Depot.

[Ronan Farrow]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Ronan Farrow]

Ba da ba ba ba.

[Dan LeBatard]

This is the Dan Levator show with the Stugats podcast.

[Billy Corben]

Always made happier when I see this radiant face. This guy zigs when others are zagging. You don't care about journalism. You hate journalism. He's great at journalism, better than just about anybody. And if you're a murder podcast person, he's not interested in the good murderers. He's interested in very bad murderers.

[Jessica]

Wow.

[Stugats]

Not enough with these good murderers, man. Sick and tired of them.

[Billy Corben]

Enough with these good murder podcast content.

[Ronan Farrow]

I'm tired of them.

[Billy Corben]

They wanted to go another way. Ronan Farrow with us. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist, obviously contributing writer at the New Yorker. He's got a new Audible original podcast, not a Very Good Murderer, and he explores the fact checking process with a volatile source. By accident, we didn't actually do this on purpose. We were talking about journalism and the fact checking process. And I'm wondering, Ronan, when you don't have a credible source or you have a volatile source, what goes into the reporting of this particular story? I'm always interested in the subjects that you choose. And thank you as always for joining us.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah, it's always a pleasure. It's always such a good conversation with you guys. I try to capture over the course of the four and a half hours this series, the answer to that question. I feel like this series doesn't neatly fall into one category. It's not one thing. And one of the layers of it is at a time when the press is under attack, right? There's dwindling trust in the press. I wanted to show the mechanics of how a journalist goes about vetting, in this case, a really politically explosive allegation. And, you know, I headed off into this wealthy gated community in the desert, Paradise Valley, Arizona, to try to assess the question you raised. It was the source at the center of this credible? And then you have these other Layers that flow from this. You. Have you mentioned volatility, a relationship that is the backbone of this series that is really wild. I mean, this is about a former pageant queen. Her name is CeCe Doane. And as I'm vetting her, I start to realize that she's been connected to this improbable series of unsolved crimes. There's an arson allegation. There's a period of time where the FBI investigated her for allegedly sending death threats to her own family. Family. There's a police investigation into whether she tried to hire a hitman to kill one of her husbands. And then another investigation into whether she tried to kill another husband with Viagra. Overdosing him deliberately. Was the claim, as I looked into that, to your point about volatility, the relationship with her became really complex because she wouldn't stop calling, and she kept coming back for more interviews. So there was clearly an attraction there, but also she was furious. And at one point, you know, she threatens to punch me, actually. Now, as of our latest conversations, multiple points. So you get to really see this, this kind of rise and fall of a very intense, complicated relationship. And then finally, you know, I thought that this series was consequential because she represents someone who's at a lot of our dinner tables and a lot of our, like, Thanksgiving meals in a lot of our communities. She is very, very steeped in the kind of Fox News Breitbart spectrum of at times, I'll just say it as a, as a reporter where I'm very committed to the facts. It's disinformation at times. You know, I'm not saying everything on those platforms falls into that category, but some of the things that she embraces, like the idea that Donald Trump won the 2020 election, you know, the idea that Barack Obama is a Muslim, there. There are certain things that come up in our conversations where it's clear that she represents a really significant part of this country's population in terms of disinformation culture. And that's something I'm very interested in. So the show kind of becomes a blueprint for not only can I solve these crimes and can I use this person as a source, credibility wise, but also how do we deal with this phenomenon in our culture of people who live in denial, maybe, as in this case, about themselves and also about the world around them.

[Billy Corben]

So did she trust you and did you now confirm her already held belief that the media can't be trusted?

[Ronan Farrow]

I think that any treatment of this subject, no matter how delicate and Sensitive and meticulous in the fact checking was going to trigger a firestorm. And in her eyes, a confirmation of, you know, the. The untrustworthy leftist qualities of the media. I will say that over the course of this series, one of the leitmotifs that emerges is blackouts, that she claims to have blacked out her memories of many of these alleged crimes. You know, her response in a lot of cases isn't a firm denial. It's a, well, I don't remember. And she attributes that to a combination of struggles with alcoholism, which, you know, I think is. Is a part of the series that a lot of people and a lot of families will relate to. There's a very forthright discussion of the substance abuse part of this. And also, I think, to just not wanting to confront some of this stuff. I think it's a mix of both. And so the. The silver lining here, in answer to your question, is there are parts of this show where she actually starts to confront some of these things she's done in her past and to acknowledge, well, maybe. Maybe it's possible I did do this. Maybe it's possible I did say this. And like, members of her family, for instance, have reached out to me. It's a very complicated portrait of a family as well. And she's been accused of being abusive by her kids and so on. People have reached out and said this is a really cathartic series for them to watch within that family. And I've been also heartened to hear from people not connected to this family who have just listened to it out in the world and said, this reminds me of my mother. This reminds me of someone I know. And it's helped me process.

[Billy Corben]

Ronan, I'm sorry to do this to you in a public fashion, but Billy's quite the anarchist today. And he's pointed out to me, how can we trust anyone in journalism when this person, who's a Pulitzer Prize winner, clearly has fake books behind him.

[Dan LeBatard]

Thermostat growing out of one of your books there.

[Billy Corben]

We can't trust this person either. Bill saying to me, and I can't even hear what you're saying, because he's saying you're not trustworthy because everything behind you is almost literally fake.

[Dan LeBatard]

News that a real guitar, I don't.

[Ronan Farrow]

Even know anymore, you would. The guitars are not. Are not wallpaper. The keyboard is not wallpaper. The books are wallpaper. And you would be shocked how much conversation I wind up in about the wallpaper. Like, people see the wallpaper, they love the wallpaper. They feel betrayed by the wallpaper when they learn that the wallpaper is a stylized rendering of a library. It's, I promise you, in person. It's not pretending to be real books. Like, it's, it's painterly. The texture of it is not, you know, photographic. It's supposed to be impressionistic. I didn't want real books in here. I wanted a. I wanted a painting. But, yeah, I apologize. Those books are fake news.

[Dan LeBatard]

What's your favorite fake book that you've read from your wallpaper?

[Ronan Farrow]

You know, I think I did at one point, like, like lean in really close and try to ascertain whether there's a title you can see. I don't think they're designed to have, like, full titles on them.

[Billy Corben]

Can you find one, do you think? Can we find one? Can we have you waste your time by scurrying around and trying to see if you can find a single real.

[Ronan Farrow]

That's going to require a separate booking. Guys, I. You know, what we should do, really, is you should just report that there's some deeply cancellation worthy book on this fake shelf. You know, there's a fake Mein Kampf on this fake shelf.

[Billy Corben]

We were, all four of us say.

[Dan LeBatard]

That, but he took it.

[Billy Corben]

We were all going to. At the same time. We were all going to yell Mein Kampf, but I didn't want the.

[Ronan Farrow]

I knew you were. I just figured I'd do it for you.

[Billy Corben]

Dr. Sussex, you also released earlier this week for the New Yorker. And I'm telling you, I am a deep admirer of this person's work because he's so meticulous about what he chooses and how he reports it. But your report on why the police refused to investigate a serial rapist, Sean Williams, and the prosecutor who blew the whistle on that, can you tell us how you came to report all of that in 2021?

[Ronan Farrow]

I got an encrypted email from a person claiming to be a federal prosecutor and saying that they were chasing the case of a, they thought maybe historically prolific predator and being obstructed by the local police. This person thought that the cops might be protecting the alleged perpetrator. And it was such an incredible claim. And as I dug in from there, the specifics were so wild that I wound up spending four years just looking at every facet of this case and immersing myself in hundreds of pages of legal documents and interviewing dozens of people on the ground in Appalachia where this takes place wound up being about this prosecutor, Kat Dahl. She really was a federal prosecutor. And she had been assigned to Johnson City, East Tennessee. And she started to track strange events around the local businessman, a guy named Sean Williams. There was a woman who fell out of his fifth story window. There was another woman who left his apartment super out of it, seemingly drugged, and was panicked and went off the road. She realized there had been years of police reports from women claiming that he had drugged and raped them. And various pieces of evidence recovered around him started to lead her to believe that he might also be preying upon children. And as she worked on this case, actually a bunch of people allegedly were assaulted while she failed to get the case across. So it became this kind of passionate obsession for her. And the local cops seemed really uninterested in pursuing it. And you can read in this piece in this week's New Yorker all of the details of the ways in which they behaved strangely and through some combination of neglect, lack of interest, just incompetence. And this is one of the things that emerges as the piece goes on, potentially corruption. They let him get away over and over again. I'm talking about. She finally struggles and struggles and struggles to get an indictment against him. And then he goes on the run successfully for more than two years in total. He at one point gets caught by officers on a college campus by complete coincidence and is taken into custody and then escapes from a moving police van. I mean, it's stuff you don't expect in the present day. And over my years of reporting on this, the alleged perp, this guy Sean Williams, when he finally was in custody, started to tell me, well, I threw an associate of mine was paying off the cops. They deny this, but I present all of the evidence and people can come to their conclusions.

[Billy Corben]

That's led to a new request for the reopening of discovery. Right.

[Ronan Farrow]

Yeah. There's now motion in some of the cases around this. There's a bunch of both civil and criminal proceedings that have flowed from this. And in at least one of the civil cases, there's been new filings based on some of this reporting. So maybe we haven't heard the last of this, and maybe there'll be more answers. I do think that one of the reasons that may me want to put this out now is that it's a story about state and federal oversight systems failing. And as I was reporting on it and saying, like, hey, why didn't the FBI look at this more? Why didn't the Department of Justice writ large look at this more? Why doesn't this community have answers to these answerable questions about whether the cops were being paid off. What I started getting back in response to those questions was people saying, hey, buddy, the offices that you're asking for more and better accountability from are getting destroyed right now. So the Trump administration is dismantling a lot of these corruption oversight apparatuses, a lot of the systems for whistleblowers, like the one in this story, to come forward. They fired the head of the Office of Special Counsel, which is the office responsible for enforcing the Whistleblower Protection Act. They've done various other things to try to erode the space for whistleblowers to come forward. They have downsized the Public Integrity section at the Department of Justice, which is the office that should be looking at corruption claims with respect to police around the country to just a skeleton crew. So I think it's important as people read this to also have them know this is why we need federal systems of oversight to protect people around the country. And what I'm being told by people around this case and other experts is with the absence or diminishment of those systems, we're a lot more likely to see more cases like this go unchecked.

[Billy Corben]

He is the face of horrifying news. Listen to his new Audible original podcast, Not a Very Good Murderer. It is available now. Honestly, like, meticulously gathered, but it's just horrendous. I mean, he, I mean, just horrendous. Like, you hear him talking, it's like, oh, that's scary. That's terrible. Okay, good talking to you, Ronan. Thank you.

[Ronan Farrow]

Always a pleasure.

[Billy Corben]

Not really.

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[Jessica]

Don LeBatard we're gonna win.

[Billy Corben]

Stugats.

[Stugats]

We're gonna win.

[Billy Corben]

They're annoying.

[Jessica]

Old reference.

[Dan LeBatard]

This is the Dan lebatar Show with the stugats.

[Billy Corben]

I'm gonna wait until a home run is hit, preferably on the very first pitch the Marlins throw this season, to talk about the Marlins new home run sculpture because they moved out a mult million dollar colorful fiasco that David Sampson loves but very few other people did, and now have a new home run thing that spews water. And so we'll all get to see that together and then talk about it. David Sampson, incidentally, in the post game with Jujugatti, we're finally going to do that germaphobe off to see which of them is a little bit crazier. So that's coming up in a little bit. But before we do that, because I'm unsatisfied with our tournament, I want to create another tournament and I just want to a bunch of iconic sounds here and get from you guys what the seedings on this are and should be. So the 16 seed in a different tournament, the one I'd prefer to do than the one Billy and others are trying to passive aggressively bother me with, but is a great celebration of our fans who are in general population.

[Dan LeBatard]

Thank you so much. Yeah, more than anyone. By the way, the prize for that one is supposed to be going to the championship game with you. That would have been a prize, huh? You would have liked that. And then they told me, no, we're not doing that.

[Billy Corben]

You put me in a position where I have to sound like I'm against watching a game with one of our most loyal fans because of how you've done this tournament and because you don't.

[Stugats]

Like gen pop, apparently, atop your ivory.

[Billy Corben]

Tower, Shangri La, while wearing a silk robe of some sort behind a velvet rope.

[Stugats]

Touch the hem of my garment.

[Billy Corben]

Number 16.

[Stugats]

What's that's. That's AOL instant messenger.

[Billy Corben]

I asked for some of the most iconic in the history of sound game, bro.

[Stugats]

It's iconic for like what, eight year generation of people?

[Billy Corben]

Number 15. Is that a sound or is that like curb. Curb your enthusiasm. That's a song.

[Stugats]

If you cut it at and right there, that's a sound.

[Billy Corben]

Number 14, you've got mail. Two AOLs again.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

Do you know all about that, Dan?

[Stugats]

Again, it's a specific generation.

[Billy Corben]

Number 13.

[Dan LeBatard]

Oh yeah.

[Stugats]

It'S a song. This is a full ass song.

[Jessica]

You should let the whole two minutes play out.

[Billy Corben]

That's a song though. That's not a sound. Get it out of here. Number 12.

[Stugats]

What are we doing?

[Billy Corben]

This is not the correct way to.

[Jessica]

Tournament produces this show.

[Billy Corben]

This is not the right Way.

[J]

This is what you wanted, dan.

[Billy Corben]

No. Number 11.

[Jessica]

In the criminal justice system, sexually based offenses are considered especially heinous. In New York City, the dedicated detectives who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad. Special victim.

[Billy Corben]

This is not a stories.

[J]

These are their stories. That would have been a good sounder.

[Stugats]

These are just.

[J]

These are their stories.

[Stugats]

Like, that's. Those are the things.

[Billy Corben]

Number 10. You guys aren't.

[Stugats]

I don't know what song that is. I know it's Baseball Tonight.

[Billy Corben]

Number nine.

[Stugats]

That's a sound.

[Jessica]

That's a sound.

[Dan LeBatard]

Yeah, that's.

[Stugats]

That's a sound. That's a. That's a sound. Yeah. Go ahead. What else we got?

[Billy Corben]

Number eight.

[Stugats]

Golden Eye.

[Billy Corben]

Just cartoon music.

[Stugats]

Oh, it's X Men.

[Billy Corben]

Number seven.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

This is.

[Stugats]

Come on. I mean, it's back to the.

[J]

It's a great sound, though, but it's.

[Stugats]

A song that's not a sound.

[Dan LeBatard]

Didn't we have another package?

[Stugats]

Yeah, the one you guys played. The other. That's a sound.

[Billy Corben]

Two AOLs and two Back to the Futures in the most iconic sounds in the history of sound. Number six.

[Stugats]

Oh, yeah. Dude, I don't. Well, you got. Yo, Derm. Were you old enough for that?

[Jessica]

I know that that's, like, one of the first things I remember in my whole life. Honestly.

[Billy Corben]

Onyx.

[Stugats]

Super bowl commercial.

[Jessica]

That's such a truly. It's one of the first pop culture things that I remember.

[Stugats]

You're too young, Tony. That was. Was.

[J]

No, no, I'm. I'm.

[Jessica]

No, he's saying it's sad that I'm saying it's one of the first things I remember in my life.

[J]

There's no way.

[Jessica]

Am I a liar or am I lying?

[J]

Lying.

[Billy Corben]

Number five.

[Stugats]

Now it's a song.

[Dan LeBatard]

Yeah.

[Billy Corben]

You guys. You guys are bad at this. You guys don't know when to cut things off. Like, they need to be sounds, not.

[J]

Songs you know would have been a good sound.

[Stugats]

Oh, yeah.

[Dan LeBatard]

Or just going, nazis.

[Jessica]

I hate Nazis, man. We all almost yelled Mein Kampf earlier in the album.

[Ronan Farrow]

Number four.

[Stugats]

Oh, Daily double. Yeah, that's a sound.

[Ronan Farrow]

That's great.

[Billy Corben]

Number three.

[Stugats]

You know me, man. That's a sound.

[Billy Corben]

Well, for this to work comedically, they need to be short.

[Stugats]

That was short.

[Billy Corben]

I know, I know. No, I'm saying that that's the correct way to do it. That's not the incorrect way to do it. Number two.

[Stugats]

That's a song. A great song, but a song nonetheless.

[Billy Corben]

How can we. How. How do our tournaments keep getting.

[J]

Life finds a way, Dan.

[Stugats]

Words Finds a way.

[Billy Corben]

Number one.

[J]

Number one song.

[Billy Corben]

Get me a new 16.

[Jessica]

Yeah, just let it play out.

[Billy Corben]

Get me a new 16. I want to do something different with all of this. Let's talk about March Madness in a different way. We're going to get to Jessica and Taylor. Somehow, Taylor has invaded the show again. Les Taylor is a life principle for.

[Dan LeBatard]

Me, but he's a good producer.

[Jessica]

And he was on pitch clock yesterday, too.

[Billy Corben]

So much proof of that in the last.

[Dan LeBatard]

To be fair, he wasn't part of that.

[Billy Corben]

Are you sure?

[Dan LeBatard]

Maybe evidence he's a bad producer because he didn't want to help Mike Malley.

[Jessica]

Throwing Mike Malley under the bus.

[Dan LeBatard]

Mali is a good producer.

[J]

Check out Tony Bracketts, by the way.

[Dan LeBatard]

Yeah, I love those guys.

Ethan's on that one, though. Maybe don't check it out.

[J]

Me, Ethan, Malley and Taylor breaking down the march. Madison.

[Dan LeBatard]

Well, are you trying to sell it or not? Doing.

[J]

It's like it's electric.

[Stugats]

Just. This is happening. Just two hands out.

[Billy Corben]

Everyone's blaming everyone else.

[Dan LeBatard]

I know how to say that. Other sound tournament, if you want.

Go ahead, Billy.

So that sound tournament, what you do is, like, play the lightsaber one. Roy.

[J]

Sorry, say again?

[Dan LeBatard]

Nothing. Never mind.

[J]

Lewis was talking in my ear.

[Billy Corben]

You guys do the rest of it.

[Stugats]

All right.

[Jessica]

Dan, no. We're gonna miss you. No, Dan, no.

[Dan LeBatard]

Please don't go.

[Billy Corben]

No, please, no.

[Jessica]

We're gonna miss you so much.

[Dan LeBatard]

How about we do a top?

[Stugats]

I thought he'd never leave.

[J]

Yeah, I got a good top five first, guys.

[Dan LeBatard]

Wait, before we get to the top five, Riley stole those cookies, right?

[Stugats]

Of course. Okay.

[Dan LeBatard]

I mean, I feel like we were being gaslit the entire time.

[Stugats]

You guys think the nutritionist has the power to tell LeBron that he can and can't have?

[J]

LeBron has his own nutritionist.

[Stugats]

Look, you think the nutritionist has the balls. The balls to make a decision?

[J]

The unmitigated goal, like, to say, hey.

[Stugats]

I'm not going to tick with Pat. I'm the boss boss here.

[Jessica]

Do you think that there's a chance that they did it once and then as soon as they found out, it was an immediate like, what are you doing? We have to bring the cookies back. Because apparently the cookies were back. So maybe the nutritionist will slap on the wrist, and then.

[Stugats]

Where's the nutritionist now? Do we know? We don't know.

[J]

We don't know if the person's still working for the organization.

[Dan LeBatard]

I'm still confused about the whole ice cream thing. That part was just a joke.

[Stugats]

It was a red Herring, which is a terrible flavor of ice cream.

[J]

Yeah.

[Dan LeBatard]

I said you had a top five.

[J]

Yeah, I did.

[Dan LeBatard]

Okay.

[Jessica]

All right, let's do that.

[Dan LeBatard]

But you have to whisper it.

[J]

No, I gotta whisper it. This is an exciting top five. I can't whisper it.

[Dan LeBatard]

Okay.

[J]

Teddy's top five, by the way. Ladies and gentlemen, brought to you by Jimmy John's. They're finally here and they're hot. Try the new toasted sandwiches at Jimmy John's. Order one today.

[Stugats]

I have a Jimmy John's shirt. I should have wore it today.

[J]

Oh, you should have. All right, so this is an exciting list of exciting whites. These are the top five secret sauce players still left in March Madness.

[Stugats]

Okay.

[J]

Number five, the duo of Danny Wolf and Vladislav golden for the Michigan Wolverines.

[Stugats]

Oh, yeah.

[J]

They're scrappy players and they're bulldogs.

[Stugats]

Danny Wolf is an Instagram legend, man.

[J]

Number four, Richie Saunders, forward for your BYU Cougars. He's cerebral, deceptive speed, and he's sneaky athletic.

[Stugats]

Shout out to the Cougs.

[J]

Number three, Sean Padula, guard for Ole Miss. Gritty, tons of heart out hustles, everyone. By the way, gained 15 pounds of muscle on the off season. Allowed him to play big guard, though. Italian, maybe.

[Stugats]

Okay. Yes.

[Dan LeBatard]

Don't do it again.

[Stugats]

Yeah.

[Ronan Farrow]

What are you doing?

[J]

Is he Italian? I don't know. Do you know number two, Grant Nelson?

[Stugats]

No.

[J]

Alabama.

[Stugats]

What?

[J]

Alabama.

[Dan LeBatard]

For you to say the team, dude.

[J]

Alabama Final Four, 6 11. But he's a student of the game. He's all the. He's got all the intangibles.

[Stugats]

I mean, Roy, I was going to ask. What? No school for him.

[J]

Real high motor, just hanging out. True gamer number one, Braden Smith from Purdue. He's a real lunch pail and hard hat kind of guy. Absolute gym rat. First guy in, last guy out. Every single time.

[Stugats]

That's every player who's ever played at Purdue.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

This top five is sponsored by Jimmy John's.

[J]

They're finally here in the hot. Try the new toasted sandwiches at Jimmy John's 01 today.

[Stugats]

You know my favorite Purdue guy?

[Ronan Farrow]

Who's that?

[Stugats]

That reminds me of Jimmy John's.

[J]

Zach Eady.

[Stugats]

Eat one more.

[Jessica]

Oh, and Zach Eady.

[Stugats]

I want to hunt Zach Eady.

[Jessica]

That's great.

[J]

Thank you.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Well done.

[Stugats]

Yeah, those are both.

[Jessica]

Look at you guys with puns, huh?

[Stugats]

We try, man.

[Jessica]

Wow.

[Stugats]

Try out.

[Jessica]

We're one big family.

[Stugats]

So, special sauce. Is that what you call them?

[J]

The secret sauce? Secret secret sauce of March Madness. The white guys.

[Stugats]

Who do you think of? I've got a Name in my head. Follow me if you will. Ali Farouk Manesh. Who I guess is Persian with that name. But he looks white to me. When you said secret sauce, white guy in March Madness, that's who I think of. Right. Was it Northern Iowa or was it.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I think so.

[Ronan Farrow]

Right.

[Jessica]

Northern Iowa.

[Dan LeBatard]

Yes.

[Jessica]

That was amazing. That run was remarkable because what it was about him, it was the receding hairline. It wasn't just that he was a short guy, it was the receding hairline, as if he looked like he was already the 35 year old accountant that he was destined to be.

[J]

I was just informed that he just got the Colorado State job yesterday.

[Jessica]

What?

[Stugats]

Congratulations.

[Jessica]

How do you like that? That's amazing.

[Stugats]

Well, congratulations.

[Dan LeBatard]

I mean, knew that that's why he brought him up. Yeah, yeah, of course you're paying attention to the news.

[Stugats]

Of course. Yeah. I'm always tapped in in the Colorado State job. Diefendorf. Not. Not special sauce. Right.

[J]

It snoggle special sauce.

[Stugats]

It snoggle special sauce.

[J]

Special sauce.

[Stugats]

Marshall Henderson. Not special sauce.

[Dan LeBatard]

You're right about Iranian, by the way. His father was a member of the Iranian men's national volleyball team.

[Stugats]

There you go. Bloodlines.

[Jessica]

Speaking of white guys in basketball, I mean, you and I were talking about this a little bit yesterday, but friend of the show, Zach Harper has been launching a campaign has been to really push a nickname for Nikola Jokic that is already out there, but isn't really his number one nickname. The number one nickname for Nikola Jokic is obviously the Joker playing off the back of his last name. But the nickname that Zach wants to push and I want to support him on this Big honey. I love Big Honey as the nickname for Nikola Jokic. This giant polar bear of a man.

[J]

Polar bears don't like honey.

[Jessica]

All right, well, this giant bear of a man.

[J]

Thank you.

[Jessica]

Who is so smooth with everything he does. Did you guys see the pass that he made yesterday? I mean, he is so ridiculous out there and he's so skilled and I just think the, the, the Big Honey is one of those throwback nicknames to like the 1970s when we had these crazy nicknames in basketball. I mean, look at this pass that you'll see. I mean, he's ridiculous and I, I love the idea of giving him a name. Nicola Big Honey Jokic. Does anyone here agree with me?

[Stugats]

I think it's a dumb nickname. And the fact got it from Zach Harper makes it even dumber, to be honest with you. That guy's a hack and that nickname's a hack and the guy's name is Joker. It's a great nickname.

[Dan LeBatard]

I don't. I'm not. I'm not privy to the lore.

[Stugats]

Why am I feuding with Zach?

[Dan LeBatard]

Yeah.

[Stugats]

Because I have to do a podcast with him every single week.

[J]

It's not feud. It's like a long standing.

[Stugats]

Yeah.

[J]

Eternal beef.

[Stugats]

Do the. Do The Hatfields and McCoys have a feud?

[Dan LeBatard]

I don't have a feud with anyone that I have to record with here. I don't. Who would my feud be with?

[J]

Madly under the Bus?

[Dan LeBatard]

No. We're friends. Love Taylor. I love all those guys.

The immune dog is here. It's like a classic. Will they, won't they?

[Jessica]

You know they won't.

[Dan LeBatard]

Oh.

[Stugats]

Or unless they do.

[Dan LeBatard]

Billy, on the other hand, he has feuds.

[Ronan Farrow]

I do.

[J]

Yeah, he does.

[Dan LeBatard]

With who?

[Stugats]

Tony?

[J]

No, it's.

[Ronan Farrow]

I have feuds.

[J]

It's not a long standing feud.

[Dan LeBatard]

My family feud.

Very easy to get along.

[Jessica]

Earlier, we were out in the commissary and Billy. Billy walked up to Tony and Taylor and looks at both of them out of context and goes. He goes, I gotta change something that I. I said to you guys a while ago. I had told Taylor that he was in better shape than Tony, but Taylor, you're losing it. Tony's in better shape than you are. Which prompted about 10 seconds later, both of them dropping to the ground and doing push ups.

[J]

But I did more, by the way.

[Jessica]

And of course, Tony did more to prove his manliness.

[Dan LeBatard]

But no, it doesn't. It doesn't just stop there, though. I have. I have gotten them to agree to compete against each other in taking the middle school presidential fitness exam.

[J]

I'm gonna crush him. I'm.

[Stugats]

I heard you guys yelling. Like, what are you talking?

[Dan LeBatard]

It just takes you going up and telling one of them they're in better shape than the other one. Then five seconds later, they're doing push ups on the floor and they're doing the presidential.

Just to clarify, Billy not only has a feud with Tony, he has a feud with Taylor. If you listen to mystery crate, this week we rehashed. We will be rehashing the fashion show that we are going to have. Or Taylor doesn't want to dress Billy, he wants to dress Chris Cody, because the two of them have a bit of a feud going on.

Now, me and Taylor also, if I'm gonna be honest with you, the one feud that we do have going on is Taylor was all in on this whole NASCAR thing that we were going to be doing. Going to these races, going, driving the Cars around, doing all this NASCAR stuff. And then Homestead Miami comes, comes around. We go and we drive a car around the track. We have the big race coming up. He's like, can't go. Gotta watch hoops.

[J]

Real Hoopers know someone's gotta do it.

[Dan LeBatard]

Someone's gotta watch hoops around here.

[J]

Exactly right.

[Dan LeBatard]

Me and Taylor are the only two people watching March Madness. I'm watching the women. He's watching the men's. By the way, other than Tony Bracket.

[Stugats]

You guys should do a segment together or something.

[Dan LeBatard]

Well, I have good news for you.

[Stugats]

What's that?

[Dan LeBatard]

We do have a segment together. What? It's called God Bless College Basketball. God Bless March Madness. And you're gonna listen to it.

[Stugats]

When?

[Dan LeBatard]

Right now.

[Stugats]

Wow.

[J]

Right now.

[Jessica]

Go pee pee right now?

[Dan LeBatard]

Right now.

[Home Depot Advertiser]

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[Jessica]

Hey, friends, it's Jerbear here, and I'm here to tell you all about Boost Mobile, which is now a legit nationwide 5G network. So I must take a break from the jokes here for a second and put on my serious voice, because I would never, ever joke about a 5G network that has invested billions building 5G towers across the country. Not even once. Not even if Mr. Boost Mobile himself asked me to. There is nothing funny about it. Boost Mobile is now a legit nationwide 5G network and also provides coverage across 99% of America. Seriously? Visit boostmobile.com or your nearest Boost mobile store location to learn more. The Boost mobile network, together with our roaming partners, covers 99% of the US population. 5G speeds not available in all areas.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Don LeBatard sub 500 seasons it's been lonely now the best players on our side been losing and losing for much too long. But now we're back with New York pride.

[Billy Corben]

Stugats.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Jaylen, you've got us on our feet. Jalen we're gonna win the East. Jaylen Without Randall, we're still doing fine.

[Dan LeBatard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats.

God bless college basketball.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Taylor God bless college basketball.

[Dan LeBatard]

Jess welcome back to God Bless March Madness presented by Priceline. Dreaming about that triple book it and go to your happy price with Priceline. So, you know, we work for a show Taylor that just takes a lot of a lot of big dumps on things that they don't like or understand. And one of those things this past week has been March Madness. And I would like to be here to say as someone who sat on the couch pretty much from Thursday morning until Monday night without moving, watching every March Madness game in the women's and the men's tournament, it was pretty fun, it was pretty exciting and people that are upset with the lack of upsets, well, there were some bangers of games. Is that accurate?

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

That is accurate. We are in this office the two most ball watchers, ball knowers, ball lovers.

[Dan LeBatard]

It doesn't take much to be a one of the most ball knowers. I will raise my hand up like.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

The bar is the fact that I'm.

[Dan LeBatard]

A ball knower in basketball.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

The bar is did you watch a tournament or did you watch an NCAA basketball game before the tournament?

[Dan LeBatard]

Yes.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Oh, then I could check that box. You're in the one percentile here.

[Dan LeBatard]

Exactly. The Houston Gonzaga game was great. Houston blocked their game tying three pointer. The Dairy Queen buzzer beater in the Maryland game was excellent. These are all just from the men's tournament. Florida and Yukon down to the wire. Oregon Arizona was an all just a nail biter. Oregon Duke in the women's tournament too was also a nail biter. We'll get to that in a little bit. But this has been the most watched NCAA tournament for the men in 32 years. So despite what people on the show may say, everyone's very interested in the NCAA tournament. They're watching and we're going to talk about it a little bit here. First things first. We miss dugouts. We miss his presence. We miss most of all his weekend observations. Taylor misses someone, having someone to text his errant thoughts to. He's just been texting, you know, a few of us like his. His weekend observations, and we're like, taylor, this is great. Like, why are you writing like this over a text message? So he's going to get them out of his system right now. So these are his round of 32 men's NCAA tournament observations. Taylor, take it away.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Death, taxes, and Tom Izzo having his team playing their best basketball in March. Sparty, Amir, Khan McNees, state's manager. Sister Jean just called. Even she thinks you're doing too much.

[Dan LeBatard]

So mean.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

But Alabama do it against the school with a football team coach. Cal in the Sweet 16. Kentucky in the Sweet 16. The rare win win. Gonzaga versus Houston. The two longest active streaks of Sweet 16 appearances. You know what that means, Jess?

[Dan LeBatard]

Something's gotta give.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Something had to give. You're on it today.

[Dan LeBatard]

I'm so on it.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

If you looked up senior guard play in the dictionary, you'd see a picture of Florida's Walter Clayton Jr. Here, Derek Queen hitting a buzzer beater against Colorado State. You know what he did, Jess?

[Dan LeBatard]

What did he do?

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

He called game.

[Dan LeBatard]

Oh, it's a good one.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

You call him Dusty. May I call him Dusty March?

[Dan LeBatard]

No one likes a Dusty anything. That.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

That is a good take.

[Dan LeBatard]

I mean, especially March. Do some spring cleaning. Like, we gotta get the dust out of here.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

The guy at work who says I had that in my other bracket, respectfully, go to hell. Speaking of hell, Barb Riles. Jess, those are the round of 32 observations.

[Dan LeBatard]

Well done. Great job with the beeps. Next time, we need to insert a top five in there to really get you juggling the fanfare and the beeps. But excellent, excellent work. So we've got even more basketball this upcoming weekend because the men's tournament was so chalky and the women's tournament, that means the next round is going to be highly competitive. The ratings are expected to go up higher as we see some of these huge juggernaut teams compete against each other this weekend. One game that I'm super duper looking forward to. Well, actually, there's. There's a couple games, but I'll start with this one. Notre Dame and TCU in the women's Sweet 16 round is going to be, in my opinion, I think, prediction. I think it's going to be a really good game. This is a Rematch of a game that was in November that TCU won. Notre Dame had a lead through three quarters. TCU overcame the league, came back, won the game. Haley Mainland, we talked about it on the show this week. She has a really interesting story. This is her third school. She, you probably remember her from the LSU Iowa game last year. She also was on the USA Basketball 3x3 team this summer. But she is having a really great season with TCU and this is her first Sweet sixteen and I mean I can't even remember how long over a decade I want to say. And Sedona Prince, who is their big is also playing really well. She's averaging 17 and a half points per game, nine and a half rebounds per game. And Notre Dame is going to have to do a lot to match up with a big of her size. But on the flip side of that, Notre Dame has Hannah Hidalgo who is a finalist for national player of the year. She's a phenomenal player. If you like college hoops and you like seeing a guard who is averaging four steals per game, like 24 points per game, who is just getting after it on both sides of the ball, defense and offense. Hannah Hidalgo is your gal. She is having a great season. So are Sonia Citron and Olivia Miles. The other two guards on that team are probably going to be WNBA lottery picks later this year. So I'm excited for that game. I'm also looking forward to the North Carolina Duke rematch of a game. This is like the rubber match, I guess. Third time they're playing against each other. Series is split right now. Duke was a sneaky, sneakily won the ACC tournament In women's basketball. We, we figured they'd do it in. On the men's side, the women's team, their emphasis is defense, defense, defense, defense. So they have the ability to really like draw out these rock fight type games. And so this will be a huge game for them against obviously their arrival, Taylor's alma mater, North Carolina. The last 23 game I want to talk about in the women's Sweet 16 round is NC State and LSU. Again LSU is a team I think a lot of people are familiar with. Kim Mulkey, obviously the hall of Fame head coach for LSU and Flage Johnson who's in all of the commercials this year. She's in all the Powerade commercials. She's a rapper. She's also a great basketball player. And Anissa Morrow, her teammate is averaging, I think it's 14, 14 rebounds per game. Like she's just crazy on the board. So LSU Even though they're a three seed, they had some health stuff at the end of the season that I think impacted their seating a little bit. But not the best, not the best guard play on LSU's team, which is the complete opposite of NC State, which is great guard play. So NC State was a Final Four team last year. Those two are now playing again in another rematch. There's a lot of rematches in the Sweet 16 round in the women's NCAA Tournament, but that game is going to be, I think, really good as well. So tune in to all of the women's NCAA Tournament Sweet 16 games this weekend. They're also the 1 seeds. I think they're all probably pretty easily going to go through except maybe usc now that Juju Watkins is out. They're playing against Kansas State, the 5 seed. So I will be watching all those. Taylor, you're going to tell us now what men's game games to look out for this weekend.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

You mentioned a lot of rematches on the women's side. The storyline I'm looking forward to watching on the Sweet 16 is a rematch of a game from November where Duke won at Arizona and now they're playing against each other in the sweet 16. I hate to say this, this is Duke's most complete team in decades.

[Dan LeBatard]

God, I hate that you have to say that.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

And I have this as a if not now, when season for Jon Shire. Because when you look at this Duke team, they really don't have any weaknesses. They have guards, Tyrese Proctor, Sion James. They all shoot better than 39% from three. And then in their front court they have Malawatch and then of course they have Cooper flag. And if you're watching this Arizona team, if they are to pull off the upset, it's going to be because of one player, Caleb Love. And that name might sound familiar. He was a first team all Big 12 player this season for the Wildcats. And the narrative for this Wildcat team has been they're going to go as far as Caleb Love will take this them in. In 24 wins this season, he's shooting 46.7% from the field. In their 12 losses, he's shooting 31.8%. So he's a guy who's either going to win you a game or shoot you completely out of it. But there's also drama. Jess O. I love drama. People love the drama. Caleb Love grew up a Duke fan.

[Dan LeBatard]

Oh no.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

And he wanted to play for Duke.

[Ronan Farrow]

Duke.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Duke took another point guard in their class, Jeremy Roach, and was like, hey, you two are going to come here. We'll figure it out. Kayla Love was like, no, we're kind of rivals from USA Basketball. This is not going to work. So Caleb Love went to Carolina just because he wanted to play Duke. And then in 2022, in the final Four, Caleb Love was the one who hit the dagger three to put the. The final nail in Coach K's coffin.

[Dan LeBatard]

What? Oh, I didn't know any of this. This is great lore.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

And if you know how sometimes you say, like, I believe something, but you don't really believe it. Like, I think Caleb Love would rather beat Duke and end Duke's season than win a national championship.

[Dan LeBatard]

I mean, I believe based on the limited things I know about him, I would believe that. And I also think that a lot of college basketball fans are, like, I'd rather see anyone else win than Duke this year and every year.

[Dan LeBatard Show Advertiser]

Yeah. And Caleb Love is a. I say this as a Carolina guy, but he's a very easy guy to root for in terms of a March guy that can get hot. Kind of like Kemba Walker. The problem for Arizona, it's hard to see him staying consistent for six games, but against a team like Duke, it only takes one game. And I will say if. If Caleb Love pulls this upset off statue in the Dean Dome, I want his Arizona jersey.