Hour 2: Further I Say If Not

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz – Hour 2: Further I Say If Not

Release Date: May 13, 2025

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1. Revisiting a Pivotal Interview with NBA Commissioner David Stern (01:08 - 04:39)

The episode kicks off with a nostalgic look back to a significant moment from the 2003-04 NBA season, focusing on host Stugotz's intense interview with then-Commissioner David Stern. Stugotz recounts how he confronted Stern about controversial officiating in the NBA playoffs, particularly surrounding the Miami Heat's performance during Dwyane Wade's rookie year.

Notable Quote:

• Stugotz (02:38): "At that time, it was a very scary man, Jorge."

The discussion highlights the tension during the interview, where Stugotz questioned Stern's handling of officiating biases. Stern's response, "Further, I say, if not," is dissected for its condescending undertones, leading to a deeper conversation about power dynamics between journalists and league officials.

Notable Quote:

• Jorge Sedano (04:07): "The further I say if not is a great condescension that is just, oh, no doubt."

Despite the confrontational exchange, Stugotz reflects on feeling both anxious and proud for asking the tough questions that many were hesitant to voice.

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2. NBA Draft Lottery: Is the System Rigged? (05:00 - 08:05)

The hosts delve into ongoing speculations about the integrity of the NBA Draft Lottery. Stugotz addresses rumors suggesting manipulation within the lottery system, citing an insider's account of irregularities during a draft event.

Notable Quote:

• Stugotz (07:48): "There's 1001 permutations of number four, number four digit combinations...and this person told me that not only was there an audible gasp when they realized it was Dallas, but several media members cursed."

Mike Ryan juxtaposes this by sharing stories about former Commissioner David Stern's strict oversight, questioning how the current league maintains transparency.

Notable Quote:

• Stugotz (07:09): "He ran this thing with an iron fist."

The conversation concludes with a consensus that while suspicions persist, concrete evidence of rigging remains unsubstantiated, and the league benefits from the resulting fan theories.

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3. Critiquing Jimmy Butler's Performance and Media Scrutiny (18:39 - 23:54)

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes Miami Heat's Jimmy Butler, especially his underwhelming performance against the Golden State Warriors, where he scored 14 points but had a net negative impact of -30.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Ryan (18:39): "They lost by seven. He was minus 30."

The hosts debate whether Butler deserves the backlash he's receiving on social media for his performance, considering his previous contributions and the context of the game. Billy Corben argues that Butler's behavior in Miami set high expectations, making his current performance even more disappointing.

Notable Quote:

• Billy Corben (21:05): "He shouldn't be getting a pass because, you know, he's got him, he's playoff Jimmy."

Stugotz adds that while Butler showed resilience in asking tough questions to Stern, his recent on-court performance contradicts the leadership expected of him, leading to a tense discussion about his role and future with the Heat.

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4. Current NBA Playoffs Dynamics: Randomness and Team Performance (26:19 - 33:00)

The conversation shifts to the overall unpredictability of the NBA playoffs in recent years. The hosts observe that the last five seasons have seen a variety of champions, breaking the traditional dominance of teams like the Los Angeles Lakers and Boston Celtics.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Ryan (27:13): "This is the most random this sport's ever been."

Billy Corben reflects on how roster changes and the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) have contributed to the current state of the league, making outcomes less predictable and challenging long-term fan engagement.

Notable Quote:

• Billy Corben (31:06): "We can say, in debt, this is the most random territory in NBA history right now."

The hosts also touch upon stylistic changes in the game, such as the emphasis on three-point shooting and its impact on traditional play, with Mike Ryan expressing concern over the shifting strategies that might alienate long-time fans.

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5. Fan Behavior and 'Night' Chant Controversy at Panthers Hockey Games (35:01 - 40:06)

Transitioning to hockey, the discussion centers around inappropriate fan behavior during national anthems at Panthers games, specifically the persistent chanting of "Night" despite the departure of Spencer Knight from the roster.

Notable Quote:

• Dan Le Batard (38:15): "They went to a game a few years ago, they remember night. So they're just like, we're gonna yell it."

The hosts express frustration over the lack of awareness among fans and the team's ineffective measures to curb this behavior. Mike Ryan shares a personal anecdote about his children witnessing the chant, highlighting the generational disconnect and the need for better fan education.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Ryan (37:50): "It's a disgrace. So my boys are looking at me. They're like, it's coming, dad, it's coming."

Suggestions include proactive communication from the team during intermissions to inform fans about player changes and discouraging outdated chants. The discussion underscores the importance of maintaining respect for traditions while adapting to current team dynamics.

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6. Reflections on Team Loyalty and Changing Fan Bases (40:06 - End)

In the concluding segment, the hosts reflect on their personal affiliations and how team performance affects their listening experience. Stugotz shares his unanticipated interest in the New York Knicks, appreciating the compelling narratives emerging from their games.

Notable Quote:

• Stugotz (12:41): "If you would have told me in 2000 that in 2025 I would find the Knicks to be an endearing story... I would have told you, you're out of your mind."

The episode wraps up with a light-hearted discussion about pet care, reflecting the show's blend of sports commentary and personal anecdotes. However, the main content remains focused on sports analysis, team performance, and fan behavior.

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Conclusion

"Hour 2: Further I Say If Not" offers a comprehensive exploration of pivotal moments in sports, blending historical reflections with current controversies. From dissecting high-stakes interviews to analyzing player performances and fan conduct, the hosts provide insightful commentary that engages both long-time listeners and newcomers. The episode underscores the evolving landscape of professional sports, highlighting the intricate balance between tradition and modernity, and the ever-present demand for integrity and respect within the fan community.

Overall Notable Quotes:

• Stugotz (02:38): "At that time, it was a very scary man, Jorge."
• Jorge Sedano (04:07): "The further I say if not is a great condescension that is just, oh, no doubt."
• Mike Ryan (27:13): "This is the most random this sport's ever been."
• Billy Corben (31:06): "We can say, in debt, this is the most random territory in NBA history right now."

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Note: Advertisements and non-content sections were omitted to focus on key discussions and insights.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Stugotz]

This is the Dan Levator show with the Stugats podcast.

[Jorge Sedano]

There he is. Hollywood Insider. Look at him with that background. He looks like Kale, by the way. Yes, okay. Of course he is. He loves the kale smoothie. He's radiant. He's an. He also is a rising star at espn. And Jorge Sedano is here to recount the tale that mortifies Zaslo. Zaslow, how would you frame this story of Jorge Serrano at his most rebellious in Miami? Irresponsible and not journalistically sound.

[Mike Ryan]

Well, I don't think George thought he was being irresponsible. I think he probably thought he was being responsible by trying to get to the bottom of something that has been talked about. But I get Ajita just thinking about it, like it gives me anxiety. The spot that George put himself in with at the time, it was a very scary man, Jorge.

[Jorge Sedano]

I don't believe anyone knows the story. I believe they're too young to remember. This was the first moment I believe that Jorge Sedano made a national splash. And I believe it might be his worst public moment. Do I have this wrong?

[Stugotz]

I don't know. Maybe. I don't think of it as a bad public moment at all. I actually found it to Zazzle's point. Me asking the question everybody wanted answered to the guy that you needed to ask the question to. So just to give the details, this is 2003, 04 season of the NBA. It's Dwyane Wade's rookie year. At that time, I was. Was the Miami Heat pre and post. What was that?

[Jorge Sedano]

That's our very competent executive producer. Doesn't have the job at all because his old man is my best friend.

[Stugotz]

Oh, okay. So I was the Heat pre and post game show host on radio. This is like a playoff game for the Heat. They're playing Indiana, I believe at the time. This is the second round when Stan Van Gundy and Dwayne Wade and those guys got to the second round. So David Stern is come coming over to be interviewed by me. And at the end of the interview, I asked him, I said, you know, commissioner Stern fans are very upset about the officiating in this series. They feel like the team, the more veteran team, is getting the benefit of the calls. And we've had these controversies, obviously. And this is coming off of the Sacramento thing, right? So I mentioned that. And he looks at me, he just kind of looks me up and down and he says, you know, George, what you're saying would be illegal in 50 states. Further, I say, if not. And then I just kind of like kept going back at him because I didn't know any better at 20 something years old a little bit. But, you know, I eased off the gas a little bit and we just kind of had a discussion about it. He elaborated some about the officiating and, you know, who these guys are and what they're, you know, what they go through and the rigorous testing that the league does for them on a game to game basis, etc. Etc. And then we're done. I wrap up the segment, he taps on the shoulder and goes, good job, George. Like a little kid, you know, like just almost like he should have just tapped me on the head, to be honest with you, when he walked away.

[Jorge Sedano]

The further I say if not is a great condescension that is just, oh, no doubt. Oh my God, what does that even mean? Further, I say, if not.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Jorge Sedano]

Like you're. Mike said it means you're an asshole is what put it on the poll at Levitage show. So if you say further, I say if not, are you 100% an asshole? And also.

[Billy Corben]

What, it's good work out of your boy.

[Chris Cote]

Good job, Chris.

[Dan Le Batard]

I know, that was beautiful, brilliant.

[Stugotz]

Well done, Dan. I'll say this. I felt both in that situation after it was over, I was both proud of myself for asking the tough question to the scariest man in the world at the time, sweating bullets still after the fact, but felt good about it, honestly, because I just think that's what everybody wanted to know at that time.

[Billy Corben]

So, George, when.

[Chris Cote]

When the commissioner Stern all but patted.

[Dan Le Batard]

You on the head and said Good job, George. How much of that was condescending? How much of it was sort of.

[Billy Corben]

Sort of real?

[Jorge Sedano]

And Georgie, did he call you Georgie? Did he. Did he send you out?

[Stugotz]

No, no, no. I think it was a combination of both. I think it was condescending. No question about it. I wish I could really explain his tone, even when he said it. Like, he almost.

[Mike Ryan]

He took a breath.

[Jorge Sedano]

He buried you. He buried you. Like. Like, he bullied you publicly because he knew who he was.

[Billy Corben]

Mike Bass after you to put you in an anaconda vice.

[Stugotz]

No, I love Mike Bass. Don't you besmirch Mike Bass. Anyway, the. But I will say this. He did kind of give me a smile, like, you know what? I'm kind of proud that you asked the question like you had the balls to ask it, like, whereas nobody else seems to want to ask it, I guess, at that time. So it was a combination of both. It was. He was patting me on the head, like, good job, kid. You know, nice try, but you're not going to get me.

[Billy Corben]

His creative muse begs the question, George Sedano, is the NBA rigged, given what.

[Stugotz]

We saw last night, no, it's not rigged. Look, I actually just spoke to somebody who was in the room yesterday, a media member. So I'm sure you guys maybe have already seen this, but there's 1001 permutations of number four, number four digit combinations. There's several media members in there, 14 representatives from each team, and then two guys from Ernst and Young. And one guy pulls out the ball, hands it to a guy who's not even looking at the machine, and he says the number, right? And then when they get through the four digits, each team has a booklet that has these four digit combinations. And this person told me that not only was there an audible gasp as people were looking through the booklet when they realized it was Dallas, there were several media members who absolutely cursed. And you're supposed to be completely silent during all of this. So that's how the reaction was in the room, according to this person. And then, then they had to be locked up for another hour and a half because you can't leave the room and you don't have, like, your phones or anything like that.

[Mike Ryan]

George, compared to Adam Silver, who will do nothing, how would David Stern have reacted to LeBron James continually referencing that the draft lottery is rigged?

[Stugotz]

He would have been called to Stern's office. There's no question. I remember, you know, when I worked with Mark Jackson, he told us a story about how him and Charles Barkley Got into it early in their career about something and ster. And again, I'm paraphrasing this, so, you know, like, don't quote me on any of this stuff, but basically, long story short, he invited them over to his office, and he basically admonished them to the point that, like, he just told them, like, hey, I know you guys think you're. You're a big deal, but I run this thing, okay? So stop acting like, you know, idiots, is basically what he said. I don't remember the specifics of the story, but that's. That's just how he ruled. He ruled with an iron fist. There's no doubt about it.

[Jorge Sedano]

I just want horse.

[Billy Corben]

Do you think that this process, though, is ultimately working in the NBA's favor, given that it's not stopping teams from tanking, and it's also not stopping fans from just theorizing somewhat recklessly that the league is rigged?

[Stugotz]

Well, I'll tell you this, Mike. I do think that it works in the league's benefit at this point. You know, Stern would lean into that stuff in a lot of ways, too. Like, remember, he was the first commissioner to, you know, embrace fans booing him at the draft. And, you know, I think he handled all that stuff well from a PR standpoint in a way that was almost defiant. Right? So I think that the league, you know, still, in a lot of ways, albeit not as vocal as he was, you know, still just lets these things go and let people think whatever the hell they want to think. They don't care.

[Jorge Sedano]

All right, George, I need your help with something, because I really. First off, first off, would it be a good podcast or segment further, I say, if not the most condescending sports take of all time. I feel like you can throw one of those at us. But I believe that the basketball itself, like, I'm getting bothered by the fact you're someone who really loves the nuances of the game, the strategy. You know, what a heartbreak that is for Boston last night, structurally, to their franchise. You know what it means that the Knicks are around now. You know that the Pacers can beat anybody. So does it bother you at all seeing the sports grow, the sport grow, and we've spent three, four questions about is it rigged in the draft instead of, man, holy shit, the basketball is so fun.

[Stugotz]

The basketball's been fantastic. I was in Oklahoma, excuse me, Denver, this past weekend for games three and four, that series. And I know people could say, oh, look, you know, that first quarter was dreadful, and it was okay. It was as wild A thing as I've ever seen live at all. I mean, they tied for the lowest combined score in the first quarter on Sunday in NBA playoff history. But the reality is it was still close. And I think that that's what people want. Like, I have friends, Dan, who prob of went away from the NBA over the last five to 10 years, and they are locked in. Okay. And we haven't had very many series go long. This is about the individual games being interesting. And, yeah, I feel terrible for Jayson Tatum. You know, if you're a Boston fan today, you've got to feel awful. Your championship window may be closed because the basketball part of it, he may not play next year. There's the new ownership change part of it where there's already been talk about them having to shed salary because they're paying $6 billion for this team. And it's just not sustainable to keep paying this crazy luxury tax with all these guys. So, in essence, that window's probably closed. And now you've got this Indiana team. You know that I heard Ernie Johnson on your show say, don't sleep on the Pacers. And honestly, no one has been more right about anything in a sport that we know nothing about regarding the results clearly at this stage anymore. Then Ernie Johnson telling you weeks ago, don't sleep on the Patreon.

[Tony]

Not. Not true. Sedano a year ago. And that two years ago. Excuse me. And then this April, I told you the Heat need to get out of the playoff. They cannot be in the playoff. They need to be in the draft lottery at 11. And then all of a sudden, we see what happens. I only. It only happens once.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, but that's nonsense, Tony. Like, the reality is, it's a lottery. If they. If they do that over again one more time, it doesn't mean those same four balls are going to come out in the same order.

[Tony]

All they needed was one shot, though. They needed one shot.

[Mike Ryan]

Plus, it was.

[Stugotz]

It's a lottery. Do you guys not understand how a lottery works?

[Billy Corben]

Huh? Do you not know how revisionist feels?

[Stugotz]

Clearly, that's. I mean, it's an easy trope for you guys today. I get it.

[Billy Corben]

You ever hear hindsight 20 20?

[Jorge Sedano]

I've heard of that.

[Chris Cote]

You guys get the sense Sedano's on the take now?

[Jorge Sedano]

You know what I mean?

[Chris Cote]

Like, he worked his way up. He was there. He was like the young Congress going to Washington.

[Jorge Sedano]

Who's that guy behind you? Sedano. Get that guy.

[Mike Ryan]

Hey, that guy's on.

[Jorge Sedano]

What's that guy doing?

[Dan Le Batard]

Photobomb you're hiking right now?

[Stugotz]

Yeah, I was hiking.

[Jorge Sedano]

Well, that's why your WI Fi shit.

[Billy Corben]

He's. He's a. Well, it's not WI fi out there. It's just 5G. You think it'd be 5G, bro. But to Billy's point, you're just a mouthpiece for the league now.

[Chris Cote]

Yeah, he's not gonna bite the hand that feeds him.

[Billy Corben]

Come on, get out of here.

[Chris Cote]

Plus, his lake, his Lakers got Luca, and they knew that was part of the arrangement.

[Stugotz]

My Lakers?

[Chris Cote]

Yeah, your Lakers, George. Sedona. Going out there.

[Billy Corben]

There we go. Gotta thanks for that, lottery George.

[Stugotz]

Here's the deal. Tell the Heat to pick a lane, okay? That's what they need to do.

[Chris Cote]

Pick a lane.

[Billy Corben]

Mouth God's ears, pal. By the way, I know that historically you've been known as a Heat fan, even though you're a Lakers fan now. But so you. You. You grew up hating the New York Knicks. And I'm. I'm curious what's happening as you're watching this series, because Zaz and I are fully aligned. We're big Knicks guys here.

[Mike Ryan]

Yep.

[Billy Corben]

We. We love rooting for the Knicks, especially against the Boston Celtics. Almost exclusively against the Boston Silver Lake Sedano.

[Jorge Sedano]

Give us the scoop. Silver Lake Sedan. What you think? From your mountain on high.

[Stugotz]

If you would have told me that in the year 20, if you would have told me in the year 2000 that in the year 2025 I would find the Knicks to be an endearing story that I would be enthralled by and following with every bated breath, I would have told you, you're out of your mind, Gold. Bleep yourself and kick you in the face. I tell you that I have. I am locked in on them. I wouldn't go as far as, say, I'm rooting for them because I'm not rooting for anybody. But, like, I will. But I love a good story. For me, that's all I'm chasing, is a good story every day when I talk about this stuff. And they are as good a story as any in the sport right now.

[Jorge Sedano]

Get better Internet further. I say, if not, thank you, sir, and on your way out, thank you. Sedano. He can't be bothered. Too busy hiking old California Sedano. It's disgusting. He used to be Miami, but why doesn't he live in Miami anymore? Because our buildings don't allow us to do shows without bothering us with a fire alarm. The entirety of every conversation we're having.

[Billy Corben]

It's been a tricky day that way.

[Chris Cote]

Yeah, I'm just trying to live up to the version of me my dogs think I am. You know what I mean? Dopey and Izzy. They think I've got it all figured out. Meanwhile, I'm googling, can dogs eat watermelon?

[Billy Corben]

Midnight.

[Chris Cote]

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[Billy Corben]

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[Chris Cote]

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[Billy Corben]

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[Chris Cote]

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[Billy Corben]

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[Chris Cote]

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[Billy Corben]

Yep.

[Mike Ryan]

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[Chris Cote]

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[Billy Corben]

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[Mike Ryan]

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[Dan Le Batard]

I.

[Mike Ryan]

If you told me right now your life depends on it. Go to Santa Fe University and just. Just take a picture.

[Billy Corben]

Stugats.

[Stugotz]

I would die.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't know where it is.

[Stugotz]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats.

[Billy Corben]

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[Mike Ryan]

I want to get to some of the hockey in a moment here with you guys. But the warriors lost by seven last night in a game they had to win at home. Jimmy Butler had 14 points. He took nine shots. And it's not like, it's not like he took nine shots and he had 18 free throws, all right? He took nine shots, he had five free throws. In a game they lost by seven. He was a team worst. Minus 30. They lost by seven. He was minus 30. And have you guys seen the discourse on social media about Jimmy? Because.

[Billy Corben]

It'S not a good day. He's been praised. He's had a charm existence out in Golden State. It was all working for him. But then one thing that he didn't plan for was a player that was finally better than him on a roster that he was on would get hurt. And now everyone's pointing at him, which I don't suppose is super fair. Zaz, I'm curious.

[Mike Ryan]

They got him for this. Like not to carry a team to a championship, but they got him and gave him the huge money. Because God forbid the team leaves the locker room and the camera pants to a Steph Curry who's in street clothes and he's waving. He's. We all saw. He's waving them. See you guys. Like, they got him specifically to give the team a stay of execution where maybe Curry will be back. Game six. They're not going to get out of game five. Like, that's why they got Jimmy Butler 14 points, minus 30. Woof.

[Tony]

Yesterday was basically an elimination game because if you win that game at home, all right, all of a sudden the series gets extended. You go to six.

[Mike Ryan]

Yep.

[Tony]

Steph can come back. Something can happen. Game seven. It's a miracle. Golden State moves on to the Western Conference finals. It's inexcusable for Jimmy Butler to make the stink and make the, the shitstorm that he made in Miami to then go to Golden State to have a great stretch run the end of the end of the season and then put up a nine shot game. Nine shots is what Buddy Heald takes nine shots is what Kevon Looney takes.

[Billy Corben]

Nine shots is what he took when he was actively passive aggressive and trying to take games while in the lineup.

[Mike Ryan]

For the Miami Heat in a game the warriors had to win without Steph Curry. Four other players took more shots than Jimmy Butler did. Pajimsky healed. Draymond took more shots.

[Billy Corben]

Unacceptable.

[Mike Ryan]

And Kaminga off the bench. And by the way, Kaminga, who took more field goal attempts in him 13 field goals, was also 11, 12 from the free throw line. So Kaminga was far more good little.

[Tony]

Series for him, by the way, than Butler. Good little series for him.

[Stugotz]

They.

[Mike Ryan]

They buried a little bit of money back maybe.

[Tony]

Come on, Zaz. They buried him at the end of the bench. When, when Jimmy Butler got there, they said they didn't want to play him. He didn' all of a sudden 30 points here, he doesn't do a whole.

[Mike Ryan]

Lot else other than score no 0 rebounds last night in 30 minutes.

[Tony]

What do you want? You want him to do everything?

[Mike Ryan]

I want to do a little bit of something.

[Billy Corben]

Should it be, should it be crashing around him a little bit louder than it is right now in the media?

[Tony]

Jimmy or Kaminga?

[Billy Corben]

For Jimmy, I mean, given the mess that he made down here in Miami.

[Mike Ryan]

It's a good question because it doesn't feel like the me. It feels like a social media fan thing right now. I don't.

[Dan Le Batard]

Feeling out gives him a pass, I.

[Tony]

Think, but not for nine shots.

[Billy Corben]

But he shouldn't be getting a pass. He shouldn't be getting a pass because, you know, he's got him, he's playoff Jimmy. And on top of that, it's one thing if he goes out swinging, right? It's one thing if he goes out like playoff Jimmy if he has a good performance or if he's, if he's, you know, putting in an effort. That was like, all right, at least Jimmy was going for neck first to the cup, trying to draw fouls. But you're going out the way that you did when you were milking the clock over here in Miami like that. That's not what this was about. That's not, that's not the standard that, that everyone holds you to now in the playoffs that you establish.

[Mike Ryan]

They're questioning on the broadcast. And look, we, we saw this plenty of times here and this would happen every now and then. It was like this in, in game three also, where it's like, why isn't he shooting that? Why isn't he being more aggressive? But even the broadcast was openly questioning last night where he'll drive to the basket and it seems like, you know, he's got a floater or he's got a, you know, an eight foot shot and instead he passes to the corner to Gary Payton iii. It's like why don't you shoot? They were questioning on the broadcast. Why aren't you shooting?

[Billy Corben]

There was something that kind of happened in that Nugget series where you could see like he lost confidence in his own shot in the NBA Finals after being on an absolute tear. And I know he had isolated moments here and there afterwards, but there was something that happened in that series where they were daring him to be the guy. And it wasn't until they were facing elimination did he have the confidence to even put it up. I think he's pretty self aware about his limitations now, despite the bravado, despite what he did to the Miami Heat, which probably might actually make it worse because his intentions were, let me get the money now, because I know I'm never going to be at that level. But I do think for a player that was getting all sorts of praise adorned on him by the national media, and rightfully so, Miami people down here were burned by the entire experience, wondering why the coverage was so favorable and he was looking like he was coming out a winner. For the plan to be solely dependent on Steph Curry's body and for you to not give them one of those moments, right, one of those moments that they acquired you for, not just to take the pressure off of Steph, but in the event that something happens to Seth, you can win us our game. For him not to do that, it's worth. Worth coming down.

[Dan Le Batard]

He was doing the Jimmy stuff though, last night of we're still in this, we're winning the series.

[Tony]

You could say that. If you take 22 shots and you got 36 points. He lost by seven. That game was 20 out of reach for the entirety of the second half until they start, make a run with like three minutes left where all the starters were out. But if you're Jimmy, this is how you age. We knew this was going to happen. Right. You can't throw yourself at the cup every single time.

[Mike Ryan]

Which I guess you're also saying this is exactly why he held Miami hostage and only cared about getting the money right now.

[Billy Corben]

But if I may, like, counterpoint, he's top five in free throw attempts in the postseason. In these NBA playoffs, sure. So he's shown in these NBA playoffs that he can be that guy. Now, I know he took a tough spill a couple games ago and he's been dealing with that glute injury, right? But like you, you got to. Yeah, you have to. You have to play the game that gets you easy points at the stripe. When Steph Curry is out, out of respect for that franchise and the team that gave you that.

[Mike Ryan]

That for the team that gave you the money, at least validate it. Where it's like, okay, I'm. If we're going to lose, we're going to lose with me taking 20 shots.

[Tony]

The other thing is, to the point that I was making is you can't, if you know your body is not ready or not able at this point in the. In the season to go and take 18 free throws and you have to rely on your jump shot that you've kind of had a shaky situation with the last couple of years. It's like, how do you not at least try? Nine. Nine attempts is nothing. Ten attempts is laughable.

[Mike Ryan]

And. And, you know, I'll get stuff on social media where it's like, you know, what was happening there? Why wasn't Jimmy shooting? I'm like, we would get this every now and then in the playoffs at the Heat. And it's like, I don't know. He just has.

[Billy Corben]

Nobody knows games like this. He loses confidence in his shot. It's apparent because he doesn't attempt shots that he would be.

[Mike Ryan]

And pump fake, pump fake, pump fake.

[Billy Corben]

And sometimes it's pump fake. Go up for a layup when you probably should have passed out of it or not. Take the easy layup, pump fake, nobody get yourself injured. This is the end of his career. It's a guy that played his entire career one way, very aggressively. A lot of minutes on that body. He doesn't necessarily trust his shot, and he certainly doesn't trust his body anymore.

[Tony]

Zaz, on the flip side of that, looking at the Wolves, though, Wolves are looking good. Julius Randall's kind of that missing piece of that big that can score. Outside of Nas Reed, we know Gobert is going to be kind of a defensive stalwart. Anthony Edwards finally putting things together. He hasn't really had good first halves, but he's had really good second halves of these games. And it feels like, could they be healthy enough to compete against whoever's coming out of the slugfest on the other side?

[Mike Ryan]

I need to see it from the wolves first because, you know, the reality is right now with Minnesota, all right, they're beating up a warrior team that is a very big man down. And then the Laker team they beat in the first round, incomplete and incomplete. They may not have been that good. The Lakers, we may have been wrong about the Lakers. So do we. I'm down on the Wolves to the way they handled game one. Like, this series should be over. Shouldn't have Sweep should have been done with. It was like such an unprofessional effort from them where they couldn't win that first game when Steph Curry leaves. So they shouldn't lose another game this series. I don't think they're going to lose another game this series. They're getting like their first real test in the conference finals when the reality of it is whichever team they wind up playing, the Thunder or the Nuggets, they're already going to have been tested. I mean, the Nuggets won a seven game series in the first round. If the Thunder get past Denver here, they had to come back from a 2:1 deficit at one point. I'm not in on the wolves. They're going to have to. They're like, they're going to have to earn it in the Western Conference finals.

[Billy Corben]

Why is the NBA like this now? We've had like a five year run here, like kind of dating back to Covid, where just the finals. And who makes deep runs in the playoffs is kind of screwy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Used to be predictable, this sport.

[Mike Ryan]

I mean, so it was always LeBron, but what happened?

[Dan Le Batard]

What changed?

[Billy Corben]

You have teams a couple of years removed from the finals not making the playoffs at all. Hell, you have one team that was Western Conference champions. I understand they made the trade. They didn't make the playoffs. Phoenix fell off the map after they made the NBA Finals. Look what happened in Milwaukee. A disaster pretty much since they won the championship. Yeah, the Heat, two random appearances. Actually one of the more consistent teams of this sample size that I'm referring to right there. Boston's been in the, in that mix making deep runs. You could point to them and say, look, even Golden State, they've been helter skelter in the middle of that. They have one random championship, they fall.

[Dan Le Batard]

Off Denver and Boston. Boston, right. But other than that, it's been crazy.

[Mike Ryan]

I mean, how about this?

[Billy Corben]

They just fired their coach, though. They fired Mike Malone.

[Dan Le Batard]

Right.

[Billy Corben]

I mean, you want, it's all over the place.

[Mike Ryan]

You want to talk to something we've never seen before in the NBA playoffs. This second round of the playoffs, the road team's 11 and 4.

[Billy Corben]

It's insane.

[Mike Ryan]

Like we've never.

[Billy Corben]

So this could be, this could be an outlier. But I'm looking at an entire sample here of five years. And this is, I think we can say justifiably, you can confirm, in debt. This is the most random this sport's ever been. Can you think backing up the tow truck right now? Oh, I love that. Is that the new NBA now. I mean you guys watch hoop way more than me. Is this what the NBA is?

[Mike Ryan]

I can't speak to you know, the last five years but I think over the last couple of years I do think this is the new NBA. I do think. And we're seeing it and we're going to see with the Boston Celtics where the way you build a roster and the way you're able to keep or not keep a team together. This is today's NBA with how the CBA works. There's going to be a lot more parody. And look, we're going to have now Boston's done. I'm reporting that by the way. Boston's done.

[Billy Corben]

Wow.

[Mike Ryan]

I'm reporting that they are done on. We're gonna have for the seventh consecutive year a new champion. That's like it's never happened before. So this is the new NBA. And I, I again I can't speak to the last five years but the last couple years like yeah, teams are getting used to this. This is how you have to build rosters. Now I want to ask you guys about something that is really bothering me.

[Billy Corben]

Wait, if I may. I know that you, you said seven seasons different champion. But let's like let's, let's approach you okay there. Well, let's like let's really inspect these last five NBA Finals. Lakers, Heat, Lakers kind of fell off being a title threat after they won that one in the bubble. They won an ist. Maybe they had a couple of times where their fan base would feel frisky but not a real title.

[Mike Ryan]

I think they got to the west finals two years ago but again a.

[Billy Corben]

Random occurrence because like they kind of fell off, tried to build themselves back up. Heat. Okay, bubble weird. They got swept the very next year in the first round of the playoffs by the Bucks who played the Phoenix Suns in the NBA Finals. Suns kind of fell off like they.

[Mike Ryan]

Were a one hit wonder also. Yeah, yeah.

[Billy Corben]

And they should have won that series. Then you had Heat Nuggets. We can circle that as like that was pretty much. Well the Heat making ECF after that.

[Mike Ryan]

But Nuggets in 22 the Heat made the east finals and 23 NBA finals didn't.

[Billy Corben]

The following year after they made it to the NBA Finals, the Streuss was at the. Was that before or after?

[Mike Ryan]

That was 22. That was in the east finals. They lost game.

[Billy Corben]

Yeah. So they made it all the way to the finals.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah.

[Billy Corben]

And they lose to the Celtics who play the Golden State warriors who throughout this time weren't even in the conversation.

[Mike Ryan]

They were like, it's kind of a surprise.

[Billy Corben]

A champion from yesterday. And they end up winning that. Then the Celtics. Okay, I guess we can piece together. The Celtics during this five years stretch are probably the most consistent team.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah.

[Billy Corben]

And they play the Mavs consistently losing. Who's, I mean what are the Mavs? They just won the NBA lottery. This was several months ago.

[Mike Ryan]

So is this a good thing? Everything you're saying isn't this good for the NBA?

[Billy Corben]

I don't know. I don't know. Because at the same time simultaneously you have such a change of the playing cell which might actually be the root cause of why everything is so random. But I don't, I don't know because people make a lot about their, their TV ratings going down. Whether that's a good faith argument or not.

[Mike Ryan]

Playoff numbers are way up.

[Billy Corben]

Whether that's a good faith argument or not is to be determined. But the NBA was its at its strongest. When you can kind of count on the story arcs of certain teams. The Bulls were always there. Who was going to knock off the Bulls? You were very familiar with the Knicks story arc. You were very familiar with the Lakers. Right. When the Pistons have their run multiple times. You know the pieces the players and those stories actually carried over for the better part of a decade helped this league. We're in the most random territory in NBA history right now. While everybody is saying there are things wrong with this sport, I'm trying to figure out is what's wrong with the sport the teams at the end of it fighting it over. Or is it a larger issue that is probably contributing to these very random finals.

[Tony]

Just wait until you get Minnesota Indian in vs Indy in the NBA Finals.

[Dan Le Batard]

Feels like the top teams are not as good.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't think that what contributes to either. Ratings overall being down, which they're again they're way up in the playoffs. But ratings overall being down, lack of interest, what have you. I don't think it has to do with there not being this dynasty or consistent team winning. It has to be what has drawn me slightly away from the game, which is the style of play. The style of play, players not playing. I mean the NBA player loves two things more than anything else. That's complaining and not playing. All right. And that stuff is a turn off to me. And the style of play, all the three point shooting. The Celtics being the biggest example. That that's my biggest problem with today's NBA. And I think a lot of fans would echo the same sentiment.

[Billy Corben]

I should correct myself. You Know my, the new leaf that I turned over is when I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Yeah, I did say that. Kind of feels like you tune into these games in the first quarter, there's a 20 point deficit and you can kind of write that game off. There has been five comebacks of 20 points or more so far this postseason.

[Mike Ryan]

So yeah, you don't panic any. Like, if we go back to the, you know, late 90s, early 2000s, you're down by 20 in a play, you could shut, you shut the game off.

[Billy Corben]

Yeah. So shout out to that Twitter person that, that mentioned that to me. I would also like another study being done on how many of those 20 point games become 40 point games. Because that also, it kind of feels like the, the reason why I'm coming away feeling that way when I'm watching games is a lot of times when I do watch a game that's a 20 point deficit, early on, it grows to a 40 point deficit and there's no reason to watch this. And there are very few things in sports worse than when you build up all the drama, all the anticipation for an NBA playoff game and it's a dud of a blowout.

[Tony]

Sure. But this, it's a numbers game, right? Because then you have those games that are really, really great. And that shows why the NBA playoff ratings are up. Because like, oh, yes, this is what I was. But this is what I've been searching for.

[Billy Corben]

NBA playoffs up because the New York market's making a deeper run, because Boston markets there, because the Bay Area, we're.

[Mike Ryan]

Only in the second round.

[Billy Corben]

I understand, but there are, there are some big time TV markets that were in like.

[Jorge Sedano]

Sure.

[Tony]

But the play has been great. The play has been great.

[Billy Corben]

I mean, it's certainly been better than the years that I've highlighted. I think if I could like disassociate myself from my Heat fandom, like, this has been a fun NBA playoffs because there have been really dramatic games. And I gotta tell you, and I said this last year, like, I understand why Dan turns us into wfat. Like, they got a juice to them. Their fan base has a juice to them. They get people talking. I do. I was always, I was always the Heat. Homer in me was always bucking at the notion that the NBA is healthier when the Knicks are good. Because I had lived most my life with the NBA being perfectly fine and the Knicks not being good at all. But now in this moment, where the seas are a little bit more turbulent.

[Mike Ryan]

True.

[Billy Corben]

It's helping. Yeah, it's helping.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah. So I went to both Panther games this weekend. Game three and game four.

[Billy Corben]

Thank you. Not enough is being said about how you help the team.

[Mike Ryan]

I had to pull up. I had to pull up, and something really bothers me about. And I could tell. I could tell Chris. It bothers him, too.

[Dan Le Batard]

Say it, please.

[Mike Ryan]

I saw Chris at both games this weekend. He was there.

[Dan Le Batard]

He had to pull up next to each other. The random. The big parking lot is very random to me.

[Mike Ryan]

I literally pulled up right next to him.

[Dan Le Batard]

And I know where you're going with this.

[Mike Ryan]

Please. Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

It needs to be said.

[Mike Ryan]

This has been. This has been bothering me for a couple of years. Okay. But it's really bad.

[Chris Cote]

Now the boom, guys.

[Dan Le Batard]

So they brought it.

[Mike Ryan]

The Panthers won the games. They did a good job. And by the way, Keith, Yandel. Shout out. Excellent job as well, banging the drum.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's.

[Mike Ryan]

That's back.

[Dan Le Batard]

Now we're back. AJ Big boom. Big justice Yandel. This is much better than last round.

[Chris Cote]

Does everyone sign the drum? I saw some people sign the drum. So, like, did Dan sign the drum as well?

[Dan Le Batard]

He did, yeah.

[Stugotz]

Yeah.

[Mike Ryan]

So during the national anthem over the last several years, the crowd always chants red. And the rockets red glare. All right? That's the team's color. Okay.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's a hockey thing.

[Mike Ryan]

Okay, fine. Also, for the last several years, they chant night for Spencer Night. When that lyric comes across, they're still doing it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not only did he not play at all this season, like, he was technically on our roster, like, on in our organization to start the year.

[Mike Ryan]

He played plenty this year. He did.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's true.

[Mike Ryan]

He did.

[Billy Corben]

But.

[Mike Ryan]

But whatever, okay? Because they've been chanting night for years, including years where he literally was not on the active roster.

[Billy Corben]

Kind of felt more like support because he was taking that mental break, too.

[Chris Cote]

And it's Mental Health Awareness Month.

[Billy Corben]

So, like, Like. But now we're doing here. Look, there were. There were reasons season. Look, he was still on the roster, but now he's not on the roster.

[Dan Le Batard]

We traded him mid season.

[Billy Corben]

He's not a legend, so we don't care.

[Dan Le Batard]

So now what happens, Billy, is you get to that part of the national anthem, and there's still people shouting night.

[Mike Ryan]

Not as many, but it's still loud.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's enough to hear. And then you always hear the murmuring after of the fans being like, why are we doing this?

[Mike Ryan]

So game three, Friday night, I'm wondering. And my kids are looking at me because my boys know I hate it. I mean, going back to the Stanley cup finals in 2023. We're playing the night show and the fans are yelling nights during the national.

[Billy Corben]

Fans do that. We were in unison. It was the loudest part of the.

[Mike Ryan]

It's a disgrace. So my boys are looking at me. They're like, it's coming, dad, it's coming. And they know I hate it. And of course you got the dopes who yell night. And then afterward there was some booing. Like, fans were not happy about it on Friday.

[Billy Corben]

Yeah.

[Mike Ryan]

But then Sunday Game 4 ruled around and the night chant was even louder.

[Dan Le Batard]

Terrible.

[Billy Corben]

And like, they knew you were in the building. That's got to be better than this.

[Chris Cote]

We're all part of the culture now.

[Mike Ryan]

As a fan base here, we're already behind the eight ball.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's a bad look for us because.

[Mike Ryan]

We'Ve had lousy attendance forever until the last few years. All right? Now we got great supports. We're a Sunbelt team. We don't know hockey down here.

[Billy Corben]

We got no history.

[Mike Ryan]

Like, we're already behind it. And. And the dopey fans who are still yelling night. Like, obviously you're embarrassing yourself. That goes without saying. But you're embarrassing me too. You're embarrassing everyone in the building.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like, do we need to. Like, should they put something up before. Hey, don't yell Knight. Like, I'm. It's that bad. Like, I don't know.

[Billy Corben]

What are these rabble. Rabble rousers.

[Dan Le Batard]

Are they dumb?

[Billy Corben]

Are they trolling us? Or do they not know he's gone? I cuz Bob's had a pretty consistent string of playing.

[Mike Ryan]

Like, literally. Spencer Knight did not contribute to them winning a Stanley Cup. That's a fact. He had no contribution.

[Dan Le Batard]

Just.

[Mike Ryan]

I wonder. I wonder if it is fans who don't know why they yell night.

[Dan Le Batard]

They went to a game a few years ago, they remember night. So they're just like, we're gonna yell it.

[Stugotz]

Yeah.

[Billy Corben]

And it's coming from the upper deck. It is.

[Mike Ryan]

Really?

[Billy Corben]

Yeah. Because I'm always turning my head looking up there.

[Mike Ryan]

Because I sit in the upper deck for Panther games. I said front row in the upper.

[Billy Corben]

Deck, you got to handle your business up there. You got to get them in line. I look around when that happens. They know better.

[Dan Le Batard]

If I worked for the Panthers, I would literally be having a team meeting with all the ticket vendors around. Like when they. When someone walks by you, you tell every person that walks in this door, don't yell.

[Mike Ryan]

Now I think you tell the ushers, you see one of these, they gotta go.

[Dan Le Batard]

Every person that walks by you don't say that. Maybe it's not.

[Mike Ryan]

You stop it. You kick people out.

[Billy Corben]

That's gonna stop me. Do a PSA before. Don't make Goldie go up there and embarrass himself. And like, just so you know, we traded away Spencer Knight. We got Seth Jones. You scored a goal the other day.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's actually what they should do. Those little, like intermission Goldie little updates. Just, hey, by the way, guys, don't yell Knight.

[Billy Corben]

Yeah, you like that Seth Jones assist. Well, we have Seth Jones because we traded away Spencer Knight, who you insist on invoking his name during the national anthem. Despite no real contributions to this franchise over the last few years.

[Mike Ryan]

I'd rather them yell Jones instead.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like, that would at least make. I would be like, all right, we're a smart fan base.

[Billy Corben]

But I also love the anthem and I don't want to disrespect the anthem because you don't want to say. You don't want to say Jones when night is a lyric which bothers you.

[Mike Ryan]

More, Yelling of night during the national anthem or the USA chants at the.

[Billy Corben]

End of the game. They're coded.

[Dan Le Batard]

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