Hour 2: Have You Ever Seen Me Do a Puzzle?

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz Episode: Hour 2: Have You Ever Seen Me Do a Puzzle? Release Date: April 8, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, hosts Dan Le Batard and Stugotz delve deep into a variety of topics ranging from sports management hypotheticals and stock market insights to the intricate balance between mental health and competitiveness in professional athletics. The conversation is enriched with candid banter, insightful commentary, and memorable quotes that capture the essence of the hosts' unique perspectives.

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1. NFL Coaching Hypotheticals: Tomlin and Cowher at the Helm

The episode kicks off with an intriguing discussion about an alternate reality where Mike Tomlin and Bill Cowher simultaneously serve as co-head coaches of the Pittsburgh Steelers. David Sampson sparks the conversation at [01:22] by posing the question:

"Imagine if Tomlin and Bill Cowher were both the head coaches of the Pittsburgh Steelers at the same time. How would that work out?" [01:22]

The trio explores the potential challenges of such a dual-coaching arrangement, pondering over decision-making processes, play calls, and timeout management. Stugotz counters David's skepticism by emphasizing the possibility of collaboration among talented individuals:

"Big talented people have self-awareness about how it is that they would collaborate with someone else who might have strengths in other places that they don't have." [02:07]

Despite the light-hearted speculation, Stugotz underscores that combining two strong personalities might lead to conflicts, ultimately questioning the feasibility of such a partnership.

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2. Stock Market Insights: Nasdaq Fluctuations and Market Predictions

Shifting gears to financial matters, the show provides an update from the NASDAQ trading floor. Billy Gil shares his observations on the current market trends at [03:05]:

"We have extreme wealth creation that's been taking place other than in Stu Gotz's account. ... Tesla up, DraftKings up, market." [03:05]

Stugotz exchanges quips with Billy about the "dead cat bounce," a term Billy explains [03:36]:

"That is an expression that's often used on Wall Street, the dead cat bounce. ... Do not buy the dead cat bounce because then you end up in trouble." [03:36]

The discussion highlights the volatility of the stock market, especially in the wake of unpredictable political actions, such as those involving Donald Trump. Billy advises caution to investors:

"Be very careful buying these dips. Be very careful selling into these crests, because you may not time it right." [05:11]

This segment offers listeners valuable insights into navigating market fluctuations and the importance of strategic investment decisions.

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3. Mental Health and Competitiveness in Sports: The Carlos Alcaraz Perspective

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the mental health challenges faced by athletes, with a particular focus on Carlos Alcaraz, a rising star in tennis. Stugotz introduces the topic by referencing Alcaraz's comments on choosing happiness over being the top-ranked player:

"He is saying I'm choosing joy over having to be the best." [22:31]

The hosts dissect Alcaraz's stance, debating whether prioritizing mental well-being over relentless competitiveness can coexist with achieving greatness. Billy Gil presents a skeptical view:

"It's either he's lying or he's gonna burn out like Carlene Bassett. ... But for you to say that, I'm wrong when all you have to do is look around, it just means that your eyes are closed." [06:18]

In contrast, Stugotz defends the notion that pursuing happiness does not necessarily impede an athlete's success:

"I don't know if it's a smart strategy, but choosing happy is not a bad strategy." [37:08]

The conversation extends to comparisons with other athletes, such as Klay Thompson and Michael Jordan, examining the underlying pressures of maintaining peak performance while safeguarding mental health. The dialogue raises critical questions about the evolving landscape of sports, where personal well-being is increasingly recognized as essential to sustained success.

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4. Broader Reflections on Mental Health in Athletics

Beyond individual cases, the hosts reflect on the broader implications of mental health in professional sports. Stugotz shares his observations on the changing attitudes of younger athletes towards competition and personal fulfillment:

"Younger people know how to choose themselves over some of their parents and their grandparents pasts on what it is that greatness required." [36:14]

This generational shift signals a transformative approach to sports, where achieving joy and maintaining mental balance are becoming as important as winning titles. The discussion acknowledges the historical narratives of athletes who thrived on obsessive competitiveness, juxtaposing them with contemporary figures who advocate for a more balanced life.

Billy Gil emphasizes the complexity of this issue by questioning the sustainability of Alcaraz's approach:

"It's sonic to the low end bird, right? ... it's the most obsessive of the bunch." [09:16]

The segment underscores the tension between traditional notions of athletic excellence and modern understandings of mental health, suggesting that the future of sports may increasingly value holistic well-being alongside physical prowess.

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5. Internal Banter and Host Dynamics

Interwoven throughout the episode is the characteristic banter between Dan Le Batard and Stugotz, adding a layer of humor and relatability. Moments of playful teasing, such as Stugotz's jab at David Sampson's absence or the light-hearted exchange about solving puzzles, showcase the hosts' camaraderie and ease in navigating complex topics.

For instance, Dan quips at [35:11]:

"Host of football. Are you a good puzzler?" [35:11]

This interplay not only entertains but also humanizes the hosts, making their insights more accessible to listeners.

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6. Reflections on Athletic Legacies and Personal Fulfillment

Towards the episode's conclusion, the conversation circles back to the theme of legacy and personal fulfillment in sports. Stugotz challenges the notion that greatness requires sacrificing happiness:

"Are you sure you can be the greatest ever if you're not obsessed with being the greatest ever?" [38:11]

Chris Cody and Billy Gil engage with this idea, debating whether an athlete can achieve all-time great status without the intense drive traditionally associated with such accomplishments. The discussion touches upon the nuanced balance between ambition and contentment, leaving listeners to ponder the true meaning of success in athletics.

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Notable Quotes

• David Sampson on Coaching Hypotheticals:
  "Imagine if Tomlin and Bill Cower were both the head coaches of the Pittsburgh Steelers same time. ... Who has final say on do we go for it or not?" [01:22]

• Stugotz on Collaboration:
  "Big talented people have self-awareness about how it is that they would collaborate with someone else who might have strengths in other places that they don't have." [02:07]

• Billy Gil on Dead Cat Bounce:
  "If you drop a cat and it's dead, it will come up and then right back down in a market. Do not buy the dead cat bounce because then you end up in trouble." [03:36]

• Stugotz Defending Happiness Over Greatness:
  "Choosing happy is not a bad strategy." [37:08]

• Stugotz on Generational Shifts:
  "Younger people know how to choose themselves over some of their parents and their grandparents pasts on what it is that greatness required." [36:14]

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Conclusion

Hour 2: Have You Ever Seen Me Do a Puzzle? offers a comprehensive exploration of the delicate interplay between competitiveness and mental well-being in the realm of professional sports. Through thoughtful analysis, spirited debate, and authentic interactions, Dan Le Batard and Stugotz provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of how modern athletes navigate the pressures of excellence while striving for personal happiness. This episode not only sheds light on contemporary athletic challenges but also invites reflection on what it truly means to achieve greatness in today's ever-evolving sports landscape.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Stugotz]

At practice and I have no idea what's for dinner. You can get a rotisserie chicken and two sides for just $15 in as fast as an hour with Walmart Express delivery. Who said that? Who's in my house? Don't play with me cause I'm not the one. It's just your friendly Walmart announcer. This is a commercial. Oh, okay. You were saying dinner for a family was just $15. Yep.

[Chris Cody]

It'll be at your door by the.

[Stugotz]

Time you get the kids home from practice. Order now. Welcome to your Walmart. Subject to availability restrictions and fees apply. Now that was a helpful commercial.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugats podcast.

[David Sampson]

Like, imagine if Tomlin and Bill Cower were were both the head coaches of the Pittsburgh Steelers same time. Imagine that. Like how would that work out? Who has final play? Who has final say on play calls? Who has final say on do we go for it or not?

[Mike Ryan]

Who's calling timeouts, right?

[David Sampson]

I mean, not going to work.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean Shanahan reached out to Belichick to be the defensive coordinator. That would have been the worst decision of Shanahan's career.

[David Sampson]

That's what I'm saying.

[Mike Ryan]

Then if they finally win, it was all Belichick.

[David Sampson]

I mean think about it.

[Stugotz]

So you guys do not believe that two big talented people can work together? That ego that. No, no. Big talented people have self awareness about how it is that they would collaborate with someone else who might have strengths in other places that they don't have.

[David Sampson]

It's why I'm here.

[Stugotz]

Why are you here and you haven't been recently?

[David Sampson]

I mean I was traveling.

[Stugotz]

I know, but like why explain to me you're here? Balance Dan out to offer the accents.

[David Sampson]

You're getting caught up in the minutia because you know I'm not A ball ho. I'm totally fine. If I didn't go an entire hour without saying a word here put you with somebody else who's not me. And I have a lot of fear of what's going to happen there, you know?

[Stugotz]

So you. You think that I.

[David Sampson]

Way too much, David.

[Stugotz]

By the way, I came in here.

[David Sampson]

Thinking Greg Cody was going to be a Greg Cody Tuesdays. I left five, six weeks ago, and it was Greg, Greg Cody every Tuesday. And now we replace that with who's Asking for more Samson?

[Chris Cody]

Wow.

[David Sampson]

Nobody is the answer.

[Stugotz]

Wow, man.

[David Sampson]

Love you, Dave.

[Stugotz]

Let's go out to David Sampson again in the NASDAQ room where we get an update on everything going on with the nasdaq. What do we have, David? Give us an update from the bustling floor of the nasdaq.

[Billy Gil]

We have extreme wealth creation that's been taking place other than in Stu Gotz's account. The reality is that whether you're Elon Musk or just your general retail investor, you've taken advantage of what could be a dead cat bounce. We'll have to wait to see. But Meanwhile, Tesla up DraftKings up market. Yeah.

[Stugotz]

A day. A dead cat. Yeah. That was disgusting. A dead cat bounce. What? I've not heard that expression before.

[Billy Gil]

That is an expression that's often used on Wall street, the dead cat bounce. How does a dead cat bounce, I ask? Not very high, but it does bounce. If you drop a cat and it's dead, it will come up and then right back down in a market. Do not buy the dead cat bounce because then you end up in trouble.

[Stugotz]

Chris Cody, were you as disturbed as I was after Stugatz gave voice to who wants more Samson? For him to go that lecherous with the making of money, where his sound was sensual in a way that creeped us out and made me think about the. About 10 days ago, when him and Juju had that germ phobos, I was disturbed by how eager David Sampson was to have an orgy. As disturbed as I was by anything David Sampson has said or done since he mispronounced boobs in Spanish.

[Billy Gil]

Taytas.

[Stugotz]

You were disturbed by this? Yes. Like it was unpleasant to hear it.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't know where it came from.

[Stugotz]

Well, it's just money. Money makes him lecherous. Money gives him a boner. Like, that's.

[Dan Le Batard]

Chris.

[Stugotz]

Money excites him in. In a way that, you know, is pornographic and. And disturbing. When he goes to lecherous. What else have for us in the two hours now that the nasdaq has.

[David Sampson]

Been open going back to him.

[Billy Gil]

You keep saying Nasdaq. Do you mean the exchange? Because there's Nasdaq, there's the Dow, there's the S and P, there's the small cap, large cap, mid cap. I don't understand your infatuation with Nasdaq. Is that, like, the only thing you've heard of?

[Stugotz]

It's not necessary at this point to keep pointing that out as if I'm not doing it on purpose, like I wasn't at the beginning, but since then, I'm doing it like I learned my lesson and then ignored it. So what other other updates do you have here? Because people have been panicked for three days and Stugats is saying that Trump is now walking around being like, told you it'd be fine. I told you there are no problems here.

[Billy Gil]

That's what we should be scared about, actually, is the possible grift that could be taking place. Just be aware of it. When you're in the market, when you're day trading, it's why you shouldn't be buying and selling on these dips or on these crests. Because any rumor about delaying the tariffs, any rumor about possibility of a trade war not escalating, and the market goes up, then the White House comes out and says, no, it's actually happening. The market goes down, then there's something priced in and the market goes up. It's very hard to really guess what Trump is doing. And that's why it's really difficult. My professional advice, not investment advice, be very careful buying these dips. Be very careful selling into these crests, because you may not time it right.

[Stugotz]

I think you owe me and the public an apology for the lie that you told last hour when you said that I was was lamenting and complaining loudly that a bunch of people were sucking at my teeth. That is not something that has ever happened. You have never heard me say such a thing. And I say that you need to apologize publicly.

[Billy Gil]

Yeah, Toss. I will apologize, Dan, by saying that you've built an entire room built on extortion and people who extort you, that's basically the company that you have. So while, yes, I shouldn't have said teat, and I apologize for not pronouncing Taytas. Right. But for you to say that I'm wrong when all you have to do is look around, it just means that your eyes are closed.

[Stugotz]

You guys aren't paying very much attention. If you don't think that you were just taken out there like you guys.

[David Sampson]

Were always Here for free.

[Chris Cody]

I resemble that remark.

[Stugotz]

He called you extortionist.

[David Sampson]

I'm all right with that.

[Dan Le Batard]

It takes one to no one, I guess.

[Stugotz]

Wow.

[Chris Cody]

Talk about it after the show. Yeah. Got a multibillion dollar sale I'd like to run by him.

[Stugotz]

The thing that I wanted to ask you guys about that I'm assuming you didn't talk very much about. Although I don't know if have or not the firing of Taylor Jenkins in Memphis. Super strange. Like you never see that nine games before a playoff team is beginning in, you know, right before the playoffs start. You're throwing total upheaval from a team that we thought a couple of years ago was going to be ascendant. And I got wrong. By the way, how good Dylan Brooks is. Like I really thought that his career was going to be over. And for to see him on a Houston team that's better than Memphis is part of why it is that Taylor Jenkins got fired the way that he did. But I also wanted to ask you because I don't want to talk about the stupidity of the Ja Morant or Yah as I like to call him, finger gun stupidity. But I did want to ask you guys. When he hit a game winner over Khalil Ware and called him a pigeon, said that I had a pigeon guarding me and it was time to win the game and I got a bucket. I had never heard that expression before calling someone a pigeon. Nor do I know what it means, not just in the context that he was using it, but why? Why a pigeon? Did you guys understand the insult of that? Did anyone? Am I the only one not having heard that as an insult? I've never heard it in a post game interview. Somebody hit a game winner and say that a seven foot, a 20 year old seven footer who is wildly athletic and can guard a lot of people but cannot. He wouldn't have said that. Bam. I don't think. But he did say it of Khalil Ware. And I'm just curious, had you guys heard that as an insult before?

[Mike Ryan]

Never heard it before. But it's definitely the low end bird, right? We can all agree like it's no hawk. It's no eagle.

[Stugotz]

It is. It's a dumb bird as well. But can you look it up for.

[Chris Cody]

Me as an hockey more. More often?

[Stugotz]

Would you be kind?

[Chris Cody]

I looked it up after I wasn't even aware that it was in hockey vernacular. And then I realized I also was like what? What does this mean? Did he just invent a new insult? Because that's Kind of cool. But apparently guys who aren't really worth much are cold pigeons in hockey. And I guess it's common use for vernacular across all sports.

[Mike Ryan]

Synonymous with a peasant.

[Stugotz]

Right.

[David Sampson]

Also, pigeons could be easily fooled or cheated.

[Billy Gil]

Dan.

[David Sampson]

Often victims. Know your birds.

[Chris Cody]

I. I heard it one time and it was the response to I Don't want no Scrubs, that song from tlc.

[Stugotz]

I don't want no pigeons.

[Mike Ryan]

It was that you're going to sing it. I was excited for.

[Stugotz]

I'm not. I'm not saying.

[Chris Cody]

What's a scrub? I forgot. I almost gotcha. A scrub is a guy who thinks he's fine. Also known as a buster.

[Stugotz]

Come on, Roy, do it.

[Chris Cody]

I almost got you. You saw what I was trying to do.

[Stugotz]

I'm not doing it.

[Chris Cody]

Come on. You almost took it.

[Stugotz]

Wanted to ask you about an interview that Carlos Alcaraz. I pronounce it the way that they would. It's Alcaraz Barthelona Alcaraz Alcaraz. He is now the second or third ranked player in the world and he did an interview with GQ Spain in which he said he was talking about mental health. And we've talked about some of this before with Marty Fish and just the insanity that is the lonely obsessive compulsiveness of specifically playing tennis. That from a young age, whatever it is, tennis, swimming, there are some sports that I recall well, but I.

[David Sampson]

There's a loneliness and there's a great.

[Chris Cody]

Deal of guys struggling over mental hurdles in golf as well.

[Stugotz]

Yes. But I also think of golf, and I may be doing this incorrectly. I think of golf as being something that people really enjoy and do into their 60s and might be a suffering because it's hard and can be lonely as well. But generally I think that people love what they're doing when they're golfers. I cannot say the same about tennis, especially young people who have their childhood stolen by tennis because of how crazy the machine is at the beginning.

[Chris Cody]

I'm shocked at how few tennis players that I know like tennis. They hate it. They hate it. They like golf, they hate tennis. I try to talk to them about tennis. They don't want to talk about tennis. They don't like it.

[Stugotz]

It is a thing that I have noticed. Swimming is the same. Right. Because when you're as good as Michael Phelps, there's a loneliness in the training that even if it's a team sport, communally, the repetition of what it is that you're doing, you can grow to hate. But the thing that Carlos Alcado Said and again, it's awkward. Well, it's not, but it. No, you guys are putting the Z on American. This just happened to me in Los Angeles. Everyone there calls it Los Feliz. And I'm like, it's Los Feliz. And they're like, no, it's not. And they changed it. They've changed it so they don't pronounce Los feliz. They've made it Americanized.

[Dan Le Batard]

Why don't you call it Los Angeles?

[Stugotz]

I should, yeah.

[Chris Cody]

California is very famous for Americanizing Spanish words out there.

[Stugotz]

He says that he's prioritizing his mental health and he doesn't particularly care about whether he's the best in the world or not. He says, I was number one in the world and I was happy and now I'm number three in the world and I'm equally happy. And he's just giving voice to balance. And my question to you is, is this something that you guys understand? Because it's almost never uttered by athletes where it's like, I'm good being in third place. I don't need to be first.

[David Sampson]

I'm not saying it's the case for all tennis players or all, you know, golf players, but they only care about the majors in those sports. And as long as you're winning majors, and he is, he's competing, he's making it to the finals, he's winning the actual majors. They don't care about the rest. I'm not saying everyone. I'm just saying I could see where Alcaraz is like, you know what, what? I'll be ready for the majors. I'll compete in the majors. I don't care if I'm 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. I'm going to take my time the rest of the year.

[Stugotz]

But that's not what he, that's not what he's saying. He's speaking to the, to the mental health imbalance of. I need to be the best, I need to, I need to compare myself against others. Look, this one, Dan, I'm just saying.

[David Sampson]

The best in that sport is defined by the amount of majors you win, period.

[Billy Gil]

Is he practicing fewer hours? Is that what you say?

[Chris Cody]

He did follow up an Indian Wells final appearance which he always performs well there with a loss to a 34 year old. They've goffin in Miami in the round of 64. It was a perplexing loss. And those comments, I mean, Alcaraz has an opportunity to be all time great given his age, given the success that he's already Had. And typically in that sport, guys that have that in front of them, they don't get quoted saying things like that. They often say the opposite. Like if Wawrinka wanted to say that when he was doing his best to get up to that upper echelon and guys like Roddick, Nadal, Djokovic and Federer were holding him down, I guess I understand I'm playing against three of the greatest of all time in my era. That's unfortunate. But Alcaraz, like, he's the best going right now in terms of tools, in terms of athleticism, it's either him or Monfis. Like, those are two of the most athletic tennis players I think we've ever seen.

[Mike Ryan]

He's fine with third. Wait till he gets down to, like, 12th or 13th, then he's not going to be so happy.

[Billy Gil]

And it's coming soon.

[Stugotz]

Well, let's talk about this for a second, because I will say to you that something that I have noticed later in life that was not so for me earlier in life is that I have had turned upside down the nobility in being competitive. It was something that at one time in my life was important to me. What are you making faces because you are competitive? No. You're still competitive. No, listen. Yes, but less so. And I've seen the nobility in it less. And I've worked toward, like, you can make all the faces you want, but I know the work I'm doing here. I know how I feel about this. And I'm vastly less competitive than I used to be by leaps and bounds. And also, I've noticed the specific mental health challenges in social media and always comparing yourself to somebody who you think is having something better as a life than you. I think this is affliction that is tormenting a lot of people with the disease that is the addiction of social media. And so when he articulates something that in sports is viewed as wrong, bad, I don't care about being the best. I have stopped seeing the nobility in having to be better than person X. I'm number three now, and I'm equally happy to when I was number one. It's an articulation I have not heard said publicly by athletes. I've heard it said privately. But this is someone who's actively choosing to tell you, my happiness is more important to me than this thing that makes me so competitive that it makes me unhappy. And I'm going to choose happiness over being the best. It's usually not something that people want from their athletes. And furthermore, it's not something that can be said in team sports. It's only something that can be said out loud if you're an individual because your teammates will not acknowledge that they. That's the way to be.

[Chris Cody]

I'm not even sure how well that flies amongst his contemporaries in that sport, many of them wishing that they had those tools. And if he had the will, he obviously has an opportunity to be all time great. I mean, he's already borderline all time great.

[Billy Gil]

He's already there.

[David Sampson]

Like, yes.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, I heard those quotes and I was like, good for him. He is not catching Djokovic.

[Dan Le Batard]

He's lying.

[Billy Gil]

It's either two choices. Either he's lying or he's gonna burn out like Carlene Bassett. It and whatever he does, it doesn't really matter to me because when that weakness that you show by saying that, I'm not saying you shouldn't go after mental health.

[Stugotz]

I don't think that's weak. I don't think he's showing weakness.

[David Sampson]

What he's saying is he doesn't have to put in the work. And yet when he gets to the US Open and he takes on Sinner or Zverev, who are ranked ahead of him, he's going to beat them. And you know what? If you had an amount of money that meant something to you, you would bet on Alcaraz. You would.

[Chris Cody]

I want to be so sure he's beaten them, but I would say that let's. He's about to head into his best surface. It's clay court season, so I imagine he's going to be doing some sort of winning here. But that is something that you kind of file away as he gets later in his career. Look, the longevity that the guys at the top end of that sport displayed, where your career historically is usually over 10 years before they were still. Djokovic is still out here showing up in finals, doing his things, beating Alcaraz in the Olympics, like. Like that. That is something that you file away and wonder if he has the same kind of motivation. He may be motivated by winning in individual sports, but it doesn't sound like he's motivated by being all time great.

[David Sampson]

Mike, towards the end, wasn't Federer just gearing up for the majors, like was barely playing and just gearing up winning the majors.

[Billy Gil]

Tiger did that too. It's normal.

[Chris Cody]

And being ultra selective with the surface as well. Folks, it's Mike Ryan. And do you know that Miller Lite has basically been a partner of this show for almost 20 years? And as we celebrate 50 years of Miller Light. That means for a large chunk of it. And look, I didn't go to school for math, but I'm pretty sure that's like 80% of the time that Miller Lite's been existing. They've been with our show and I'm so grateful for it because we truly believe this. If you listen to us back in our radio days, throughout our times in national radio, to the pirate face to now, you know that Miller Light has been a huge supporter of ours. And I've always been a huge supporter of Miller Lite. Why? Because it's got tastes. You know, you can depend on a great beer. Trusted by beer lovers for 50 years. Miller Lite, great taste. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounce ounces.

[Mike Ryan]

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[David Sampson]

The only reason your organization is good is because of Bill Belichick.

[Stugotz]

Stugats.

[David Sampson]

Belichick has done nothing since since Brady left. He made the playoffs once. I think at the very least he should not be a first ballot hall of Famer. They should make him wait like 10 years to get it. He's an overrated coach.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the stug.

[Stugotz]

The thing that's most interesting about it to me is to place in front of the audience this idea Unhappier means better. Because the way you guys are doing the math on this, he's articulating that he cares less about winning than the people trying to beat him. And you're then making the leap after that. That that lack of care will be the difference between him winning and losing. And I'm not certain that something so I'd make the argument that a happier player can play longer, that a happier player is less likely to burn out. That a happier player will be someone who can climb from three to one because he's less pressurized than the player who is dying to be number one.

[Chris Cody]

I mean, well, you cited Marty Fish and that documentary on Netflix shows you exactly what it took in terms of skill set, physical attributes. He didn't have what those guys in that era had, but he beat them individually. And he'll admit in that documentary it made him lose his mind. What he had to dial it up to, to get to that point. I'm sure the guys that he were going up there, up against were probably a little bit more balanced, certainly by comparison. But the mental edge in that sport is one of the places that you do make up. What we're talking about sometimes is rager, razor thin margins.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're also arguing something that's kind of impossible, right? What's making him happy is not having that edge and not pushing himself to be the best. And by not pushing himself to be the best, he'll be looser and be the best.

[Billy Gil]

This is such an old argument. Where does the greatness make you crazy? Do you have to cut off your ear in order to be great? Are all artists out of their mind? My view is that if you have not won, then you don't realize that winning is everything. And if you have won, you do know that. And if you feel you can't win again, your defense mechanism comes up and you say to yourself, hey, the effort, it's just the juice is not worth it anymore. There's too much squeeze for him to come out at this age and say it. It sounds like a pre baked excuse. And for me, when you have a chance to be the best and you blow it, and I've seen it with team sports and athletes all the time, they have such great physical skills, but they don't have the head, the strength to be the best.

[Stugotz]

But this is the part that's interesting to me and it's the most interesting part because when you say mental toughness and they don't have the head, what you're presently saying is to be the best, you almost have to be mentally unhealthy. And Neil Brennan makes the argument, what are you talking about with mental health and Michael Jordan? He was crazy. What are you talking about with mental health and Tom Brady? He was crazy, you have to be singularly obsessed to the detriment of all other things. You have to be totally lopsided. And my question is, do you? Because you're showing me a tennis player right now that you're making the argument is next on everything that we've learned about Nadal, Federer and Djokovic are nuts. The three of them are singularly obsessed with something and they competed against each other and understood each other and in some ways became friends and rivals that had a specific language that only they spoke. But this person is saying to you, and I think it's a healthier attitude, I don't know if it's a more successful attitude in terms of results. But, but the skill set we're talking about here. Are you guys arguing that in order to be great, you have to be mentally unhealthy?

[Chris Cody]

I guess it's people's approach. Like the three names that are atop that sport all time. Federer, Nadal, Djokovic. One of them seems decidedly less happy than the other two. It also just so happens to be the guy that's atop the heap in Djokovic. So I don't know exactly what to do with that. We don't really know these guys. I'm sure there are plenty of people that have lined up against Roger Federer that are. That would tell me, are you kidding? He's a killer. But Djokovic, from being Joe Sports fans, seems like he's the most obsessive of the bunch.

[David Sampson]

We've seen it work in golf. Like Brooks Koepka has said, I only care about the majors. He's playing on the Lift Tour. He doesn't want to play all the other tournaments. He wants to show up to the majors, and when he does, he's in contention. I have Masters week.

[Stugotz]

Dana, I have told you guys before, and I will tell you again, go do some reading on Nadal and his foot injuries and what his retirement and his life is going. Going to be like as a person who has an arm that looks like a thigh that is larger than the other arm because of how obsessively he sculpted something. And I believe that he would finish third in terms of both stature and caring to Federer and Djokovic. And I don't question how much Nadal cares. I'm just saying these three people competing each other against each other to be the best didn't seem to make them, like, real happy that competition. But also, they were great in a way. That was all time. And I'm. I'm looking at what is being said here. And I'm like, man, that seems like a good life to be touring the world, enjoying tennis and not being so obsessive that you have to feel all the time like, what is the value of being the best if you can make a really good living as a bronze medalist?

[Chris Cody]

Well, by contrast. By contrast, we know who the most miserable of those three is just by how they carry themselves on the court. And that's Djokovic. I do know who's the most balanced, who appears to be the happiest. And that's always. No, it kind of feels like Nadal in terms of playing with joy. And Nadal is Alcaraz's mentor. Like that is. They played doubles in The Olympics together. Like, if anyone knows what it's like to be in those shoes, it's Nadal.

[Stugotz]

What are you doing, David?

[Billy Gil]

I'm so upset to hear anybody say, you know what I really want, man? I want the bronze. Are you. That's how you get up in the morning.

[Stugotz]

I want joy, not bronze. I want joy.

[Billy Gil]

If joy and bronze go together, you'll take the joy with the bronze.

[David Sampson]

What else?

[Dan Le Batard]

21. Like he's going to be looked as someone that peaked at a very young age and didn't live up to expectations. He'll look. He will could possibly be viewed if his career goes down because of this. Seeking joy and not wanting to win as kind of a bus won't be viewed at all.

[David Sampson]

He could be an all time David. He could be an all time great that found joy and balance in his life while becoming an all time great.

[Dan Le Batard]

Be that great.

[Billy Gil]

And ended up getting three majors, five majors, eight majors. He's got four majors.

[David Sampson]

He's 21. He's will be the favorite when they get to the US Open this year.

[Billy Gil]

How many women players have resigned and stopped at 25, 26, 27 because it was too much? Go down the list.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, loads. I mean, not, not, not guys that were considered all time great. Maybe. Also the sports science has changed a lot. I will say that, you know, as much as. And I'm an advocate for mental health and not being consumed by something and I know by being consumed by work how unhealthy that made me and how unhappy that made me. I also know what my output was at the time that I was losing my mind. And I'd stack that output up against a lot of different people. When Alcaraz has a quote like that, I wonder if, well, maybe he's not motivated by being all time great. I think he's motivated by winning these tournaments right now and maybe arguably being the best of his generation. Those are just not the conversations we were having a couple of months ago.

[Billy Gil]

And we'll wait and see what happens. I'm referring to what Dan is. I can't imagine you're actually proffering this where you would trade attempting to get nothing but bronze on the thought that that would make you the happiest. The only people who feel that way are people who can't get gold. No one starts an Olympic training to say, oh man, I'm not.

[Stugotz]

You say the only people who feel that way. And yet I'm offering you an example of somebody who doesn't feel that way. The reason I'm bringing this up is because I'm presenting you an example of someone who is saying, saying I'm choosing joy over having to be the best. And those two things don't necessarily exist together. The being the best and the joy. That the idea that there has to be some misery in this or all misery in this in the competition. Look, I mentioned this the other day with Klay Thompson leaving Golden State and he was talking about I didn't get to enjoy any. I wasn't enjoying that while I was doing it cuz people were chasing me and I forgot to enjoy it. Klay Thompson's an all time great, but is mad that he's not in the top 75 all time. I don't know if all time legacies are actually something that create joy or not, or if it becomes like Tyson Fury does. He becomes heavyweight champion, 100 years of bare knuckle fighting in his family, he thinks he's arrived at his dreams. And what happens when he gets there? Cocaine and he gains £100 because the top of it didn't feel as joyous as he thought it was going to feel.

[Dan Le Batard]

But like counterpoint, how joyful is Klay Thompson in Dallas right now?

[Stugotz]

Now?

[David Sampson]

Yep.

[Stugotz]

I don't know the answer to that. As someone who appreciates as I, I don't know how much he's appreciating the end of his career because he can see it from here in a way that he did not in Golden State. That's experience in Golden State didn't seem so joyous given that Draymond Green is punching teammates and Kevin Durant wanted to get out of there.

[David Sampson]

They were winning titles.

[Stugotz]

They were winning, but it, I agreed, but I just, I told you that when I sat down with Mike Miller and Udonis Haslam, they said that those four years, not fun. Fun, not fun. Winning was fun, but the doing of it was not joyous. The, the having done it was joyous.

[Billy Gil]

So annoying to me to hear them talk that way. Not fun. We had four years, we had the three best players. We were a juggernaut. We won two titles, four trips to the finals, but man, it just wasn't fun.

[Dan Le Batard]

Did Michael Jordan look happy to you?

[Chris Cody]

There was only one time Michael Jordan ever looks happy and it's out of track.

[Jerbear]

It's the weirdest thing.

[Billy Gil]

No. How about after he won the title each year?

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, like when he, when he got to the very top of the mountain.

[Mike Ryan]

Steph Curry, that was relief, dude.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah.

[Billy Gil]

Steph Curry looking for, for greatness.

[Mike Ryan]

Steph Curry, to me Seems like I've been trying to think back here of like an all time great that we look at. Like that's a happy guy. Seems like he has good work, life balance.

[Billy Gil]

Actually, we don't know the athletes.

[Chris Cody]

I'm curious. Well, we don't know those athletes because the way that it's covered and those guys being so long.

[Stugotz]

There's no way, incidentally, that Steph Curry has that shot and work life balance like that. He, whatever he did to create that shot, that was not a bal.

[Mike Ryan]

Seems present. Seems present.

[Chris Cody]

He's pretty good at golf. Pretty damn good at golf too. So I think he's working on that craft as well. There's a. There's a podcast called Nothing Major and it's for tennis players that have never won a Grand Slam and I would love to see if they chewed on this topic because there are guys that probably drove themselves crazy, especially in that sport, trying to get themselves to a couple of feet away from where Carlos Alcaraz is presently on the totem pole. And they probably hear quotes like that as guys are probably obsessed trying to beat guys like him, wondering, what are you doing with that kind of attitude? If I had your talent, I'd be shooting for the stars. And it doesn't sound like Carlos is.

[Billy Gil]

So there's a ton of baseball players who do that, where they look at guys who are so skilled, but they don't stay in the big leagues because they don't have the head for it. And what someone says, Jeff Conine says this about his own son, Niner. My God, if I had Griffin's talent want, I'd be in the hall of Fame.

[Stugotz]

But when you say don't have the head for it, is it because they have to accept the idea that it's going to be miserable, that they have to accept the idea that it's going to be less fun, less joyful, less fulfilling than it would be to just finish third.

[Billy Gil]

Boy, it's easy to be mediocre. You don't have a lot of stress and mediocre.

[Stugotz]

Third's not mediocre.

[Billy Gil]

Yes, it is.

[Stugotz]

No, third is not mediocre.

[Billy Gil]

Third place is mediocre.

[Stugotz]

Being the third best tennis player in the world is not everything after first is mediocre.

[Billy Gil]

David, if you're Carlos Alcaraz and you're seated third, you are failing.

[David Sampson]

He doesn't have world ranking.

[Billy Gil]

I'm not saying he doesn't care. You're missing what I'm saying.

[Chris Cody]

It's not as rewarding. I mean, for all we know that Vavrinka, at the peak of his powers, might have been the fourth greatest tennis player ever, Ever in any generation. And we don't know it because of the era that he played in, the guys that he was going up against.

[David Sampson]

The Branch Opens coming up in May. Alcaraz is the favorite.

[Stugotz]

It's clay, it's surface.

[David Sampson]

I don't care what it is. He's the favorite to win a major.

[Stugotz]

David.

[Billy Gil]

Why don't make him happy, Clay.

[David Sampson]

You're right, though. It's a good point.

[Stugotz]

Why?

[David Sampson]

It's a different sport on clay.

[Stugotz]

Why are you assuming that he's lying? He's telling you I'm equally happy at number three as I am at number one.

[Billy Gil]

And you're saying he was lying.

[Stugotz]

Well, you're saying.

[Billy Gil]

I'm saying that's what. That's not how I would want to surround myself with athletes or with artists or with people who excel at what they do. They acknowledge that they're paying a price. Of course they're paying a price.

[Stugotz]

You're saying that this person is mediocre when this person is better at what he does than any of us in this room are. Anything that we have ever tried?

[Billy Gil]

Absolutely.

[Dan Le Batard]

Host of football.

[Billy Gil]

You ever seen me do a puzzle?

[Dan Le Batard]

Are you a good puzzler?

[Stugotz]

You're a third. You're the third.

[David Sampson]

Here he is. See you, David.

[Mike Ryan]

No minor penalty.

[Chris Cody]

Two minutes for lying.

[Dan Le Batard]

Is that for Alcaraz?

[Chris Cody]

And I know Billy mention him, but he is 21 years old. That's, it's, it's an interesting quote to hear at 21. I mean, what do you know? What do you know about this? I know, you know, what, what it is to be like, really good at this. Do you really know what makes you happy at 21?

[Dan Le Batard]

At 27, he can regret his feelings at 21, no doubt, as time and his abilities have passed him by.

[Chris Cody]

And he might regret that approach if he's, you know, he's saying right now, at 21. At 21, you know, I would. I was going to 12, three, 11 concerts a year.

[Stugotz]

I believe that this entire group of people talking about this have aged out on what people his age, their relationship with work in general. It's very different.

[Chris Cody]

Thousand percent.

[Stugotz]

It's like wildly what a 21 year old is looking at in terms of mental health and happiness is far more balanced than the workaholics who have come before him who have dominated sports. And Sampson's giving a perspective that is a grandfather's generation room removed from what that thinking process is. And I believe his thinking process is healthier than all of the ones that came before it, even if it doesn't result in championships. And I'm not arguing that it won't result in championships because of what the skill level is to even be the number three ranked tennis player in the world.

[Dan Le Batard]

But that's like a generalization that gets thrown around a lot, right? Like, the youngest people are so lazy now, they don't want to say that.

[Stugotz]

I said a healthier. I said a healthier relationship with work. I didn't say unhealthy. I'm not calling him lazy. He's not lazy. He's not in any world lazy.

[David Sampson]

I think Dan's saying it's kind of a smart strategy, and he's interested to see if it works.

[Stugotz]

I don't know if it's a smart strategy, but choosing happy is not a bad strategy.

[Chris Cody]

I know that that was a really weird loss that he just got at the Miami Open.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, he wasn't happy.

[Chris Cody]

I mean, I just. It's that sport.

[David Sampson]

He doesn't lose that match at the US Open, though, Mike, and you know that. And there's a fine by majors, not by world rankings. Why would he care about.

[Chris Cody]

He does have. Have more random losses than the guys that he's generally judged against. And I know that stuff happens. But there isn't a sport, I think, for my money, in all of athletics that test your mind, body, and spirit quite the way that that one does, I guess you could say mma, but in terms of, like, the mental aspect of the game, those tennis players are so in their own head that you could look at it as like, this is a refreshing quote, but honestly, you can look at it and say, good for you. But I don't think you're gonna be all time great because you think that way.

[Stugotz]

And that's the link that I'm sort of putting in front of all of you. Are we sure. Can you be the greatest ever if you're not obsessed with being the greatest ever?

[Chris Cody]

I look at Mensik saying, oh, he's crafting himself exactly like Djokovic. I'm like, that guy's next. Now, those come around a dime a dozen. There's always guys that make a deep run, and then you're judging a teenager and you wonder what they're gonna be. But if I'm looking at what I know about their makeup and who they pattern their game around and how obsessive they appear after seeing a quote like that, if I had to bet on one person making a run at all time grade status, it'd probably be someone like Mensik. Right.

[Stugotz]

I really do wonder in the evolution generationally of all this stuff that is happening and how it is that young people interact with work and greatness, how many more Simone Biles type of things you're going to end up seeing that you've never seen before? Because younger people know how to choose themselves over some of the their parents and their grandparents pasts on what it is that greatness required. I know that David, you're continuing to make faces in here because you.

[Billy Gil]

I'm not making faces, I'm talking.

[Stugotz]

Well, but okay, but let's, let's examine this for a second. You are obsessed with being the best.

[Billy Gil]

Yes.

[Stugotz]

How happy does it make you?

[Billy Gil]

Not. But I'm not searching to be happy. I'm searching to be the best. I'm competitive in everything I do. I want to be the best and I'll work as hard, if not harder than everyone to do. And it may not work, but you can bet your ass I'm not trying to be third best.

[Stugotz]

Right. And I can bet my ass also that you're not as happy, but you're not happy either.

[Chris Cody]

Got your ass there. He's had a couple of bars. I think in retrospect, like maybe what makes him happy, what he can hang his hat on, was like, well, when I dialed myself up to a certain point, I was the best. And you can look at that fondly despite maybe even not really liking yourself during that time. I'm really proud of the work that I had when most people didn't like me. I was putting out really high end art for my, for my career. And even though I wasn't right and I alienated a lot of people, I was also operating at a really high level. And with some distance on that, I'm like, I can change that thing, I can change that. But when people look at my run as a producer, and granted this is nothing like the level of Carlos Sacra, I'm like most proud of the era in which I was the worst version of myself.

[Stugotz]

It is a hole though, David, that doesn't get filled by accomplishment. When you continue to accomplish and it doesn't feel like enduring happy. It's what I'm saying about Tyson Fury. You've got 100 years of your family, bare knuckle fights in the street and you become heavyweight champion of the world. And what you immediately do after that is gain £100 and develop a cocaine addiction because the fulfillment doesn't actually fill the hole.

[Billy Gil]

I'm always bailing water. And so are most people. And that's what we do. That is the life we choose. You can go live on the beaches in Australia in the van.

[Stugotz]

But you would.

[Billy Gil]

But I wouldn't. I'll tell you that right now. But I could. A little early.

[David Sampson]

You couldn't do it.

[Stugotz]

You couldn't do it. You wouldn't be competing against anybody. You'd just be. No, you'd be in a van and all you'd lead the world in is self loathing. You'd be better do that now. But you'd. You'd be you. You'd do it even more if you didn't feel like you were in a, you know, that you were accomplishing.

[Billy Gil]

I would like to be Cheech and Chong in a van down by the river.

[Stugotz]

No, you wouldn't.

[David Sampson]

You wouldn't last.

[Chris Cody]

It also wasn't Cheech and Chong. That was Chris Folly.

[David Sampson]

Yeah, that's.

[Billy Gil]

I mixed them both. Cheech and Chong. The van, the pot, the smoke.

[Chris Cody]

Yes, but the van by the river is Chris Farley. Yeah, that's what we're saying. We're agreeing. Man. Get off my back, dude. Maybe take a hit.

[Billy Gil]

I like you behavior.

[Stugotz]

Happy.

[Jerbear]

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[Chris Cody]

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