Hour 3: A Game Called Honk (feat. DeMaurice Smith)

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode: Hour 3: A Game Called Honk (feat. DeMaurice Smith)

Date: April 7, 2026

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Overview

Broadcast from the Elser Hotel in Downtown Miami, this episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz features a lively blend of sports discussion, pop culture riffing, and an in-depth interview with former NFLPA Executive Director DeMaurice Smith. The hour weaves through topics ranging from tabloid scandals in sports media, Miami sports, nostalgic traffic games, and—centrally—a revealing, frank, and often blunt conversation with Smith about his years battling NFL owners, the realities of sports labor, mental health in the league, and the costs of leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sports Media & Rory McIlroy Tabloid Story

(03:03–11:11)

• Main Topic: Media ethics surrounding the Daily Mail’s salacious coverage of golfer Rory McIlroy during Masters week.
• Perspective: The group is universally critical of the timing and motives behind dredging up old, largely debunked rumors about McIlroy’s marriage, arguing that both sports fans and country club types are pushing back against the clickbait.
  • Quote, Mike (Sports Analyst):
    “It’s an ugly story ... this was so clearly a coordinated effort to do it on this week, to use his name for stuff that has been out there ... It's just salacious tabloid garbage.” (10:23)
  • Dan Le Batard:
    “Whatever the gossip is ... people want dirt. The Internet is born on the idea of give me the unconfirmed stuff.” (07:25)

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2. “Bring It Back, Jack”—Nostalgia, Traffic Games, and Public Safety

(11:34–13:08)

• Game Called Honk: The crew jokes about developing a “game” to curb distracted driving by honking at phone-using drivers and using expressive gestures (the De Niro finger-point).
  • Suggestion to bring back coin-operated toll booth baskets as a nostalgic way to focus drivers’ attention.
  • The segment blends humor with a real critique of modern distracted driving.

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3. DeMaurice Smith: Inside the NFLPA, Owners, and the Cost of Advocacy

(16:44–43:25)
Main Guest: DeMaurice Smith, former Executive Director, NFL Players Association
Theme: Smith’s tenure—its battles, realities, lessons, regrets, and emotional toll.

a. Smith on NFL Owners & Labor Battles

• Owners' Mentality:
  • “I know the owners better than anyone else in the world ... They only think about one thing: Why are we giving [the players] half a billion dollars?” (17:09)
  • “If you want to understand the billionaire class, you have to fight for everything ... They'll take everything out of your right pocket, they'll take everything out of your left pocket, and then they will charge you for walking into the room.” (20:15–21:09)
  • On collusion: “No one colludes better and more than the National Football League. That's a hell of a slogan.” (26:29)
• On the Difficulty of Union Progress:
  • Smith revisits the decades-long struggle for free agency, citing historic figures (John Mackey, Freeman McNeil, Bill Radovich). He notes that every gain was “a close-contact knife fight to the death” (20:55) and laments how current players often forget that history.

b. Burnout and the Emotional Toll

• Question: “How fried were you by the end?”
  • Smith:
    “Broken ... The thing that broke me ... I had gone through 10 years of homicide [law], I’d gone through 12 years of being a law partner, then almost 15 years at the NFLPA ... Going to bed every night knowing the 10 or 15 things this group can do to you, it's hard.” (21:12)
• Maintaining Perspective:
  • “If you had unlimited wealth and absolutely no regulatory agency ... what would you do?”—a classroom question Smith uses to frame the unchecked power of league ownership. (22:34)

c. Mental Health Advocacy in the NFLPA

• Protocols Developed:
  • The union built a confidential, player-only mental health safety net, separate from teams or medical reimbursement—so “the only person that sees the check is D. Smith.” (24:45–25:39)
  • Smith refuses to comment on individual player cases, citing the stigma and confidentiality at stake.

d. Collective Bargaining, Regrets, and Lessons

• On the Salary Cap:

  • He says without a cap, collusion would still drive salaries down and keep owners’ share high, with players “playing 27 games a year.” (25:57)

• Biggest Collusion Offenses:

  • “If I had to take the two, obviously it would be the one in 2011 because all the teams locked us out ... And the collusion case I filed before I left: the Lamar [Jackson] situation ... For no team to call him … I found that to be the most offensive.” (31:50–33:08)

• Biggest Regrets:

  • Wishing he hadn’t “got away” from teaching the history of labor battles to current players, asserting that deep understanding breeds preparation and power.
    • “Looking at the three years, I now wish I hadn't backed off ... the way I personally backed off of teaching that history had a cost.” (34:26)
  • On negotiation: “Maybe I should have pushed a little further in 2011 ... But [sometimes] you lose the ability to control our work … you stay up awake at night and you try to figure out, okay, where I would have pushed and pulled a little bit more.” (35:43–38:05)

e. The Personal Cost and Shift in His Love of the Game

• Did Smith love football?
  • Often accused of “not loving football,” Smith reveals he truly loved “the players more than the game,” explaining that being exposed daily to exploitation and risk eroded his love for the sport itself.
    • Quote:
      “It became impossible for me to love the game ... I could only do this job if I loved the players more than the game, because, you know, they use the game to leverage against you.” (42:01)
    • Retells advice from labor legend Rich Trumka:
      “When I represented the coal miners, do you think I loved the hole they were crawling into? No ... if you love the people who do the work, it's a hard thing to love ... the hole.” (42:15–43:25)

f. The Modern Landscape

• Challenges for the Next NFLPA Leader:
  • “For the first time in history, someone in the second or third round of this draft will earn less money than they got in college because of [NIL deals]. ... The job in 2026 is 10 times more complicated than the job I took in 2009—really, bar none.” (39:14–39:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Smith on Owners’ Savvy:
  “Some of them are brilliant. Some of them I would not consider to be smart ... For that guy to pay as little as $2 million a year to be a billionaire. That guy’s got a really good deal.” (33:15–34:03)
• On his handshake:
  Chris Cody, via Lawrence: “He has a high standard for smart. He also ... my hand still hurts from shaking ... great handshake”
  Smith: “Well, you know, at 62, you gotta keep it in shape, right? ... For the kids.” (34:11–34:22)
• On staying “myopically focused”:
  “The North Star that gets you through the job is to be myopically focused on the interests of the players. ... I gave up my love of football for that.” (39:49)
• On working homicide vs. the NFLPA:
  “Homicide was a tough job ... but it's the best job I've ever had ... I had more fun in that job in a day than I had in 15 years at the NFLPA.” (38:12–38:15)

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Segment Timestamps

• (03:03–11:11) Sports Media, Rory McIlroy Tabloid Debate
• (11:34–13:08) “Game Called Honk”—Miami Driver Culture & Nostalgia
• (16:44–43:25) DeMaurice Smith Interview
  • (17:09) Smith on owners as “billionaire class”
  • (20:15, 21:12) On the emotional toll & burnout
  • (24:45) Mental health protocols for players
  • (25:57) Salary cap & collusion history
  • (31:50) Collusion: Lamar Jackson/non-contacted superstar
  • (34:26) Regrets—backing off from teaching labor history
  • (38:12) Comparing homicide law to NFLPA work
  • (39:14) Rapidly changing landscape, NIL impact
  • (42:01) On losing his love for the game, loving the players instead

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Tone & Style

The show maintains its trademark conversational irreverence and rapid-fire banter, but pivots to genuine gravity and candor during the Smith interview. Dan and team oscillate between playful groupthink, pointed questions, and giving Smith space to air hard-won truths. Smith himself is forthright, unvarnished, and uses dark humor amidst sometimes bleak outlooks on power and progress.

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Conclusion

Hour 3 of this episode is both comedic and consequential. While it opens with sports media snark and Miami driving games, it quickly delivers a rare, unfiltered masterclass on the realities of sports labor, power, and advocacy from DeMaurice Smith, a man who spent 15 years in the trenches. Whether you care about sports labor politics, how power works, or just want a blunt take on why progress is so hard, this episode gives both the laughs and the lessons.

Transcript

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[McDonald's K Pop Demon Hunters Promoter]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boys Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that Rooney? It's not a batt. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[McDonald's Representative]

It is an honor to share.

No, it's our honor.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

It is our larger honor.

[McDonald's K Pop Demon Hunters Promoter]

No really stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.

[McDonald's Representative]

Ba da ba ba ba and participate

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Don LeBatard]

This is the Don Levator show with the Stugats podcast.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Demora Smith is going to join us here in studio. And Chris Cody, I'm going to have to ask you to dress in something more respectful when this power broker comes in here.

[Co-host or Guest]

Let's all do that.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I cannot more respectful. We have to change our clothing and not have you be dressed as a cowboy. You really feel comfortable comfortable enough to do that?

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

I do feel comfortable enough. I feel comfortable. I've had a great show today.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

So is Joey.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

And tonight there'll be more slurring for sure tonight at 6:30 as we televise. It's. It's weird. It's a livestream. And while we are I think you sense perhaps a little scared smile in the idea of the end of times at 8pm Eastern time. It's only because our lying criminal president has put us in a position where this is now his fifth threat of this kind but now there's a doomsday deadline of 8pm on a war that he's not saying is a war that they're already obliterated even though we have danger and risk. Heroic soldier, human life. Some military members who, you know, he has been really disrespectful of in all

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

the reporting of what the military is

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

supposed to represent, will now be put into a position whether they will have to choose whether to commit war crimes because they've been ordered to do so, or not commit war crimes because we've got a Looney Tunes president who's totally out of control, who wants to be the king of the country. Also the Heat, the Panthers and the Marlins play tonight and we will be watching all of the games before I get to Tony. And he wants to steal Greg Cody's Back in my day, modernize it a little bit and bring it back, Jack. Do a better version of Back in my day because your dad doesn't do it every week. And Damoshek has now back in my day, even Tony's a hustler and he wants to bring it back, Jack. Before I do that. It's been interesting to watch in golf, right, where you only have the stories of it's always Tiger woods and now you don't have a whole lot of other storylines. But Rory McElroy at the Masters is still one. And the tabloids digging around in his personal life and the country club gathering around and being like, no, that's bullshit. Like we've seen what Murdoch News does and how dirty all of this money is in media. You're not gonna do this to Roy McElroy because whatever, he had something in his family life that may have been some version that could be judged immoral.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

So the Daily Mail posted a story that they were very clearly holding until Masters week. And it's not just a country club. Joe Sports fan is on Rory's side here.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

Is Daily Mail reputable?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Sometimes they break stories, sometimes they're a tabloid rag. They're based out of the uk. Rules are a little different there.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

The stricter.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

No, it is stricter, but they can also take some liberties with headlines. But libel is a big deal there. I remember from working at my time with Chelsea, it's FAFO kind of rules over there because they really get punished if they run with something false.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

You know about that fafo.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

You know about that working with Chelsea. Cuz he dropped that in there and he does know something about sort of the way corporate entities can get their hands and fingerprints on things. You're trying to make.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Right. So if someone has. If there's an athlete out there that gets arrested on some kind of accusation, it's deeply irresponsible over in the UK to post that person's name. We should have that where you can't run with the person's name. So there's different rules over there. But the Daily Mail story that they're running is Rory and his wife filed for divorce in 2024. A month later, they reconciled, citing family wanting to be there for their kids. The Daily Mail story doesn't just dive deep into that, raising all sorts of accusations and cheating allegations. They go way further into the past in 2012. And a lot of unconfirmed dalliances, some that were straight up denied, are invoked in the story. It's an ugly story. The intention is to grift off of the defending master champion's name during Masters.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Successfully, though, Right, though. With details that people.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

And look this salacious.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

The Murdochs built the entirety of their empire upon the phone hacking information that people wanted. You know how hard it is and competitive it is to go to the top of the media game breaking stories like they were doing all sorts of bullshit. The Murdochs were.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

But no one's really considering this as breaking any kind of story. It's not a story that people want to know. The family has very clearly moved on, decided to reconcile.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I disagree, though.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Well, let me tell you how it's being received very poorly. There aren't really many people that follow that sport in particular that are interested in this. And what's ended up happening is a lot of people have seen this story and said, bleep you.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

Daily Mail public or contemporaries?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Contemporaries. And like, from what I've seen, like golf fans, Rory's very popular. They see this as a BS story that is just going through some bad moments. The family has tried to turn the page. And you're holding this specifically on the eve of him hosting his champions dinner to try to affect him and grift off his name. The timing of it is terrible and the reporting on it is flimsy conjecture and just rumor mongering.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

And.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

And it's really actually encouraging to see generally sports fans say, get this out of here. What are you doing? This is ugly. This is so not necessary. And you're going out of your way to do it right now to this family when it should be a joyous time.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I don't see a lot of examples, though, Zaz, on what Mike is saying where, I mean, so much of the Sports Story is a cartoonish sports parable. McElroy's a champion in a sport where we have very few stars and usually it's been a universal truth the entirety of my career that people want dirt. That whatever gossip, like the Internet is born on. The idea of give me the unconfirmed stuff on Rory McIlroy or any other secret that can be talked about more privately in the Internet, where there are no rules in the comment section, like, my entire lifetime, people have wanted the dirt. Whether a guy's a champion or popular or not, like what happened to his marriage, that's a curiosity many people feel entitled to. No matter how ugly you think it is, like, the sports media can feed off of that and people will turn off, off on the sports media because the media feeds off.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

I think where people tune out on that is what happened in the marriage. I mean, they very clearly decided against divorcing one another and fighting for their family. So bringing it up, I mean, is

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

there something actually salacious from the breakup or like, it's a regular hey, we don't know we love each other anymore kind of deal?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

They go back into the year 2012 to dig up, like, rumors of him with, like, a. There was a golf reporter that. That was mentioned. It's just, you know, who gives a shit? Let's just drag your name through the mud and bring up every rumor that's associated with it. And even if it were true, and this is where most sports fans are, we don't care if it's true. The man and wife in the. In this equation decided that they were gonna overcome all of that, stay together for the kids, and decide that this was a new chapter in their life. And you're trying to capitalize on the week that he is returning as defending champion. You held onto this story because all this stuff has been out there. You held onto this story to hurt the man and get as many clicks as you possibly could during Masters Week. F you. We know that this is ugly, but

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

it'll also be rewarded. And I assume that the British tabloids feed off of infidelity in a way that makes human beings less than human families less than human kids less than human. Correct. Don't care how this affect the kids of a champion. He cheated on his wife, blah, blah, blah, Allow me to morally cluck or she cheated on him, blah, blah, blah. I thought infidelity. I feel like Britain's sort of 20 years behind here, wherever it is that the Royals reside on. Scandal.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

No, I think most people don't care Especially when the two parties have decided, whatever that was at the heart of the matter is something that they can overcome and try to move on together. And I think at that point, everybody should kind of respect that.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

That's the dirty part is all right, they're together. Are you trying to break them up? Because breaking up a marriage, like, that's not good for anyone.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

But it's just. It is interesting, though, that I've always found that whether it's British or otherwise, gossip about champions is something that people want. Whatever. Whatever the gossip is.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

This was so clearly a coordinated effort to do it on this week, to use his name for stuff that has been out there. Right. They could have done this in the moment, in 2024, when these divorce proceedings were just about to get started, and then a month later, they decided not to. It's just salacious tabloid garbage. And the Daily Mail does do some of that. They also do some stuff that makes you think, like, maybe they're not so bad. There seems to be some efforting here for journalism a little bit. Not everything is hogwash. And I'm not even saying that this. This story is untrue. It's just mining the dirt and it's ugly. And I think most people have received it that way.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Chris Cody, have we gotten anything better?

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

He just mentioned hogwash.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

David Sampson does need a better catchphrase. It's just. It's just time for him to upgrade his game.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

I actually agree with David, though. Like, horse hockey. If you say to me, anyone in our world, what do they say? Like, give me their catchphrase. He's got a couple.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

Yeah, that's how I think horse hockey.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Strong.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Okay, so you don't think he can do better than horse. Horse hockey? Give me a break. That's the best he can do. That's the height. That is the height of entertainment. Okay, I think bring it back, Jack. Might be the height of entertainment.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

Get the music for me, Dan. There's too many distracted drivers out there. You know what I'd like to do? I like to play a game called Honk. And what I do is when I see somebody on the drive, on the drive, I'm on the 836, and they're on their phone while we're driving, going 70 miles an hour. I'll give him a little honk. Just kind of wake him up a little bit. Oh, what happened? And then I'll. I'll give one of these. I'll point to, do the Robert De Niro, two fingers to my eyes, and Then look at the road. Hey, look at the road. Look at the road. So what I see is that I find myself honking a lot on the. On the expressways.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Do you have levels to your honk?

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

It's just a quick.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Just.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

So they're like, oh, whoa.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

What happened?

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Land on the horn?

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

No, I don't lay on the horn. It's just like a quick.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

I just go, double tap.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Depends on the circumstance.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

What is? Someone's texting.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

Do you do somebody's texting? Somebody's on the double tap. Doing something I hate over the Bam.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

How do you know if they're on ig?

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

I don't care what they're doing. They're on their phone, said they're texting

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

or they're on IG. How do you know they're on IG?

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

Because. Because people are on IG 24.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

7.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

Yeah.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

What if they're on Apple maps? They could be.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

But, hey, put it somewhere where I can see it and you can see the. So with all that, I started thinking about, I was like, you know what? What can we do to get people to stop looking at their phones while driving and look up and focus on the road ahead? Toll booth baskets. Bring them back, Jack. All of a sudden, you're driving through some passes, taking $1,000 every time you drive through something. But if you're driving through a specific lane, and you got to make sure, oh, I got to get a quarter. I got to get ready. I got to get my stuff, then you're not focused on your phone. You're focused on the tiny toll booth in front of you that you got to get the quarter, and you got to make sure you throw it right into the basket, because if you miss, they won't let you go through it. And if you don't have a quarter, you're done. Bring it back, Jack. Toll booth baskets.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

There's always that shift after college hoops ends where you think things are going to slow down, and instead it's just different sports pulling you in. Now it's baseball. Every night, you swear you're only half watching, and then suddenly you're locked into the seventh inning. Then you flip over. It's the cars making left turns for three hours, and somehow you're locked in. This was me, actually, the other night. I told myself, I just stay home, keep it casual. Then my buddy college Mike texted me, hey, come through. We've got everything on. And I said, yeah. I picked up a pack of Miller Lite on the way. The next thing you know, We've got multiple screens going. Everybody's locked in on something different. And the whole night just builds and builds to one of those moments where you take a sip, you look around and you realize, yeah, this was the right call. Cheers to legendary moments with Miller Lite.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Great taste.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

96 calories. Go to millerlight.com dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

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[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Hey, Roy, buddy.

[TurboTax Advertiser]

Yo.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

You know that energy shift when the game gets good and everybody all together in unison knows to stand up on their feet?

[TurboTax Advertiser]

Oh, absolutely. Mike.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

Yeah?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

You've been at most many big time sporting events. You know that moment quite well. That's what it's like when you take your first sip of Cuervo.

[TurboTax Advertiser]

Oh, delicious.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

It's the signal that says we're not checking the time anymore, pal. It's when small talk turns into stories. Cuervo, man. It's that high five. A random stranger effect. That's right. The game is popping. You're hugging people you never met before. That's the kind of energy that Cuervo brings. It's so smooth, so delicious. That's the Cuervo effect. Keep it Cuervo.

[Don LeBatard]

Don Levitard.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Football. Football.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Football.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Football. Football.

[Don LeBatard]

Stugats.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Football.

[Don LeBatard]

This is the d? Ler show with the st gods.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

Look at this.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

We've got a reformed and retired Power bro.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Here with us, Demor Smith.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

His book is Turf Wars. We've talked to him about it before, but I've got a thousand questions.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Good to see you.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Any advice for the new young guy, J.C. tretter? Any advice for what can be seen recently as a corrupt administration since you left it?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Well, what a setup. You know, look, I wish them well, I wish them, the players and especially the player leadership, every, every tool, everything that, everything that they need to learn in order to take this union to the next level. In, in light of what will be a war coming from the National Football League, I've been through, I don't know, 12 of them with, with the league. I understand the owners very well, understand the economics of the league very well, certainly know media very well and what is on the horizon for them. But the good news about two 10 year deals is we have just seen an astronomical, you know, astronomical increase in NFL revenue over the last few years. And that's been great for the players because they get half of it and that's fantastic. But I do know the owners very well. 20 years of adding a billion dollars of revenue to the National Football League every year with a prospect of a billion or more being added to revenue every year. They only think about one thing. Why are we giving them half a billion dol. And I know that is the way they think. You know, normal people, you and I would say, well, wait a minute, there's plenty of money to go around. You know, sports, you know, athletes and owners should figure out a common place to live. I know the owners better than anyone else in the world.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Are they greedy assholes?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Let's see, how big is the A on asshole?

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

All the letters are capitalized.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Yeah.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Look, it's just the way that they think about the world. It's not so much that they are constantly thinking about how, you know, how they make more money. They constantly think about how much money there is to have the whole pool and they just want most of it. And they are utterly indifferent to whatever you do that would justify or warrant a 50% share of revenue.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

When you say you know the owners better than anybody does, tell us what you've learned. What have you learned about the owners? 14 years you were in the job. Two collective bargaining agreements.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Look, if you take a look at the National Football League and I talk about it in my book Turf wars, it is the largest concentration of billionaire wealth in the world. So if you want to know about how the billionaire class thinks about working people, you can go back to John Mackey and Understand that he literally lost his career fighting for free agency. It took the NFL players almost more than 22 years of litigation to get free agency. 22 years. So when I see the numbers this year that there was a $5 billion free agency period, $2.5 billion of that $5 billion was fully guaranteed at signing. I'm pretty sure, and this is not to blame all of the players, but I'm pretty sure none of those free agent players woke up that morning and said, hey, man, I should say thanks to John Mackey or Reggie White or Freeman McNeil, because I made this happen. The reality is it was 20 years of litigation. If you want to understand the billionaire class, you have to fight for everything. There is nothing that didn't come into that thing that benefited the players. That wasn't a fight to the death. Just a close contact knife fight to the death. And I think anyone who believes that there is a way to cozy up to them, that if you just know the language that they speak, if you are somehow a business person like them, that these magic words are going to turn these historical people who have made you fight for everything into some sort of cuddly teddy bear that's going to put their arms around them and you go, man, you. You understand me? No. They will take everything out of your right pocket. They'll take everything out of your left pocket, and then they will charge you for walking into the room.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

How fried were you by the end?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Broken. You know, again, I talk about it a lot. In my book, I throw a lot of haymakers, obviously, in the book, at a lot of people who. Well, everybody who deserves them. But I think I was also. I tried to be pretty brutally honest about myself, but I think the thing that broke me, going back to that question, is I had gone through 10 years of homicide. I'd gone through 12 years of being a law partner, and then I had the job for almost 15 years. You know, I knew the danger that was around every corner. You may not understand just how many things can go wrong. You may not understand like. Like I knew going into the job, having represented some of the biggest corporations in the world, if. If you don't understand just how much power they have, how many levers they can pull, the things that they can do that you would never see coming. I knew all of those things. And doing or pushing through in this job for 15 years, going to bed every night, knowing the 10 or 15 things that this group can do to you, it's hard. It's hard. So, I mean, I Start off my class and I've taught for the last, what, 12 years.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Taught.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Even while you were doing this job you were teaching?

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I did.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Started here at the University of Miami. Have to do it for the U. I did three years here, then two years at the Yale Law School and then two years at Pepperdine. I start off my class with a frame. If you had unlimited wealth and absolutely no regulatory agency governing anything that you would or could do, what would you do? Anything you want.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

DiMoraes We've talked over the last few days about some erratic behavior from Puka Nakua. We saw how the Antonio Brown thing played out tragically. The Marshawn Neyland situation. When you were with the nflpa, Javon Belcher happened. What protocols are in place for the players union?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

I'm sure teams have their own.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

NFL security has their own.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

But when things start unfolding in the

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

public and there is erratic behavior being

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

monitored, what protocols does the NFLPA have to check in on a player and make sure these things don't spiral?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah, I know. Look, I've seen a lot of what's happened, and I always have a rule. I never talk about a player, a particular player, about anything that they're going through or might be going through. And I know you're going to hate my answer, but in 2011, I became convinced, thankfully, from the work of a lot of players, Brandon Marshall, Sean Mori, others convinced me that we really needed to look at the mental health of NFL players. And what we found is basically the cohort of NFL players and they're different from the cohort of people who are young men their age. A tremendous percentage of people need mental help. A lot of people seek mental help. And this is the part of the answer that you're not going to like. But we decided within the National Football League Players association to create an internal system where we could provide and take care of every player in the National Football League anytime, anywhere in the world. We just don't talk about it.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Is it dependent on them wanting the help or. Or are there protocols in place that the NFLPA might take it amongst themselves to do something?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah, any player that wants to take that step or any family member who says that we might need some help with someone. It was important to me to create an internal system where no player had to turn to the team doctor, and most importantly, no player would have to be worried about getting mental health and then submitting that receipt to the team for reimbursement under their medical plan, because then the team would know. So the system that we have is that if any player needs that help, we have healthcare professionals, the best professionals in the world. And the only person that sees the check is D. Smith.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

The name of the book is Turf War. It's the fight for the soul of America's game. Entertain a hypothetical for me. How does the NFL play out differently if in 1994, a collectively bargained salary cap isn't put in

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

players? The salary cap today would be $150 million, $120 million, maybe that'd be this money that they would spend. The players would be playing 27 games a year. I'm. I'm not making this up. And for a league that generated $25 billion in revenue, 75 and 80% of that money will go to the owners.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

So you're saying the salary cap is a giant? That it wouldn't be Jerry Jones and owner X fighting over Patrick Mahomes for a billion dollars?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

No, because here's the only problem. The National Football League is a paradigm of collusion, paradigm of conclusion. No one colludes better and more than the National Football League. That's a hell of a slogan, you know. So, you know, you date back and again, you know, and one of the frustrations, and you asked me why I was burned out so much of my job at the National Football League when I was at the Players Association. I always felt that I was a teach because, you know, it is very hard to have a level conversation if someone is at a historical and factual deficiency. So you start off this story with a young man named Bill Radovich. In 1945, he comes back from the war. World War II took him from football. He comes back to football. He was an all pro for every year leading up to the time that he left to play and sorry, fight for his country. He comes back, he's a free agent. The Detroit Lions owner says, I want you to resign. And Bill says, my father is dying of cancer in California and I want to go finish out my career in California with one of the teams, one of the NFL teams in California. The Lions owner says no. And if you don't resign, you'll never play for another NFL team for the rest of your life. He doesn't. Bill is a four time all pro. So the first thing you get your heads around is the salary cap. Doesn't. The presence of the salary cap in these owners don't care about what's the best talent. They care about how they build the best product. And if that product grows and grows exponentially in a way where we don't have to share money. We will collude and make sure that we don't have to share money. So that's what they did. So this young man in 1945 loses his football career, becomes a Hollywood stuntman, but he sues the National Football League 1945, takes his case to the Supreme Court in 1955. There's no union, so he supports that case. 1955, he wins 9 to 0 that the NFL owners colluded against him. So you fast forward from Bill Radovich to John Mackey, then 20 years of litigation to Reggie White to the time when they locked us out during, during 2011 for, for a new for a new collective bargaining agreement to the point where they locked out Colin Kaepernick to the point where we I file that collusion case on behalf of the quarterbacks, where we now know Judge Droney said that the management council urged teams to not do guaranteed contracts. None of that happens if you don't have Bill Radovich, if you don't have that fight for free agency, and if you don't have that fight for a salary cap. Folks, listen up.

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[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

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[McDonald's Representative]

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[Don LeBatard]

Don Lebatard.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

It's a judge code, sweetie.

[Don LeBatard]

Stugats.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

I should go say hello.

[Don LeBatard]

This is the Don Levatar show with the Stugats.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

What do you regard as the most offensive to you?

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Instance of collusion that stands atop all of the others.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

If I had to take the two, obviously it would be the one in 2011 because all the teams locked us out and a lockout is stereotypical de facto collusion. Other than that, the collusion case that I filed before I left, where you remember, it included what I consider to be the most electrifying quarterback in the National Football League in Lamar. And the Ravens place him on an unrestricted tag and not one team picks up the phone. I mean, and then they had the audacity to take it further than that. Not only did one team pick up the phone to say, we will pay you $1 more, $1 more than is on your restricted tag. For the first time and the only time that I have seen in history, you had NFL coaches and others coming out publicly saying, eh, we don't need a guy like Lamar. Well, I don't know. I've looked at your team. I can see your quarterback. I think you do. But for no team to call him and for teams to actively state that they didn't need him, I found that to be the most offensive.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

The MVP of the league.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Come on, give me a break.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

As someone who was in the room for years of negotiations with the owners,

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

are the owners smart? Some of them are brilliant. Some of them I would not consider to be smart.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

And.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

And look, I have. I have a high bar for smart.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Yeah, me too.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

But let's just say, you know, I said this at a. At a speech. Don't throw anything at me. I made the statement that Roger Goodell was underpaid and here's why. Mike Brown pays Roger less than $3 million a year to be a billionaire. So as you look around the league and there are some brilliant owners, there are some where you would say for that guy to pay as little as $2 million a year to be a billionaire. That guy's got a really good deal.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

You heard from Chris Cody there. He has a high standard for smart. He also has been whispering to me while you're talking, my hand still hurts

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

from shaking his great handshake from you, you know, very impressive. Well, you know, at 62, you got to keep it in shape, right? I mean, you know, you do it for the kids.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

It's all about that grip strength when

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

they're older, for the kids.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

What is your greatest regret in the job?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Looking back, particularly over the last three years, again, I go back to my role as a teacher, and, you know, when I started the job in 2009, team meetings would go an hour and a half long. And I know it was horrible for the players, but heading into that lockout, there was no way that they would be prepared to go into that lockout without understanding the story of Bill Radovich and understanding the story of John Mackey and understanding the story of Freeman McNeil and basically understanding the role of unions in this country over the years. I know that I got away from those long team meetings. Looking at the three years, I now wish I hadn't backed off. Because if you understand the role in the history of unions in this country, if you understand that everything in the collective bargaining agreement came as the result of a close contact knife fight, I think the way in which I personally backed off of teaching that history had a cost.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

How about the knife fights, though? Do you have a regret in something you thought was the right thing in negotiations, where you look back now and

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

you're like, ah, I blew that.

[McDonald's Representative]

Yeah.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

You know, you always have after actions, right? And collective bargaining agreements are so precarious. You know, I think fans think that you are sitting at a table like us, and there's, you know, a big term sheet and the other side is a big term sheet. And you're like flipping through the term sheet and you're going like, let's go to page 74. And then you talk about what's on page 74. It's not like that a collective bargaining agreement, it would be like all of those term sheets thrown up in the air, and they're just suspended and all of them are pieces. You're pulling them out of the air and you're dealing with one, and then you're putting it back up in the air. So. So given that you always. I always had a few regrets of. Maybe I should have pushed a little further in 2011 or maybe.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

What are the details, what are the ones that you're thinking of?

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

I don't have any of those term sheets in front of me.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

Yeah.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

So, you know, in. In. In 2011, for example, look, we're. We're locked out. The league wants 20% of the players salary back. They want the players to give up their pensions, and they want the players to play two extra games for free. And worse, players in 2011 did not have the power to control their own work. So the league had a unilateral right to increase games. The players never got paid more money for every time they increased it by two games. So one of the big wins out of 2011 was getting back the right to veto any increase in the season. So that's hanging out there, you know, on the other side of it, you know, we're. We're fighting for retaining more of a share of our share of revenue. Right. And 2011 was, yes, players gave a little bit of money back, but that's the balance. Right. You know, and my question is, okay, do I push harder and try to stay out longer and maybe we. Maybe we win a 0.5 percentage point back? You know, those things are not so much regrets as you just are playing the game in your head of, if I push too far, do I lose the ability to control our work? Do we go through a lockout? Yes, we had a secret insurance policy, but that ends. So, you know, the only regrets you have, you. You stay up awake at night and you try to figure out, okay, where I would have pushed and pulled a little bit more. But, you know, I've never been in a trial or a deal where I didn't have that.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

When you say all the jobs you've had, is this the hardest one by leaps and bounds, or did you have a harder job?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Homicide was a tough job job, I would imagine.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

I would hope that I was.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

That was. That was a tough job, you know, but also, it's the best job I've ever had in my life. I mean, bar none. I. I had more fun in that job in a day than I had in 15 years at the NFLPA. That one's hard because, I mean, obviously it's, you know, and I know we kind of joke, but it's life or death. And. And I think that someone who's sitting to my left committed a murder. I know if that.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

If I don't win this case, there's a murderer coming out on the street. So that's. That's tough. This one. And this one was hard because. And Again, fans and this young man are going to soon find out you have far less control as the head of the NFL Players association than you think. Far less control. Agents spend more time with our players than I do. For the first time in history, someone in the second or third round of this draft will earn less money than they got in college because of nil.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Yeah, that's a big change.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

The National Football League is going to redo their media deals, and that is going to give them leverage. So whether it's agents, players, fans, media, the league, this job in 2026 is 10 times more complicated than the job I took in 2009. Really, bar none.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

I'm not sure the people who are in charge are equipped for it, and nor do I know what their moralities are. I do know that players are worried about the top of their organization being contaminated by corruption.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

It's a tough job. It's a tough job. And the North Star that gets you through the job is to be myopically focused on the interests of the players. And look, I gave up my love of football for that.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Well, I was just going to ask

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

you, what do you think is the fairest criticism of you? Because the one I.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Or the one you heard most often.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

The one I heard most often was, he doesn't love football.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Not a football guy. I have a 30 second story. So I sat on the executive committee of the AFL CIO, and right around 2012, 2013, you know, I. I grew up a fan in Washington. Love, loved watching the game. I was a terrible football player myself. Despite my, my wrist strength. I think my, My football coach in high school is still in therapy.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Just because of how bad you were.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, he's, he's, he's up to solid food now, so that's the good news. Time, though.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Yeah.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

That was 30 seconds.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah, so that was 30 seconds. Sorry, sorry.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Does Shaquit's earner Clark Common look like the director of a funeral home?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Where's the.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna keep getting louder.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Where's that line come.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

Lawrence, you better answer this question.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

Does chief's owner Clark Hunt look like the director of a funeral home that makes candles out of its surplus embalming fluid?

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

Right here, David. Right here. Look. Oh, it took.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

Yes or.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Good job, Zaz. Okay, I will say this. I use a photo. There's only one known photo that, That I know of where all the owners took a photo of each other. I think in, in 2018. 2017. And I came to the conclusion that the photo that south park uses is far better. Far better.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

Well, I have one. One more question. When you first met C. Bishotti, what

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

did you notice first?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

The tan? The teeth or the hair?

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Oh, clearly the hair. I mean, that's not even close. I mean, are these. Are these supposed to be hard ones now? I mean, this is where we're going.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

I don't think he. I don't think he got to tell his 32nd story.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Okay, my 32nd story.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

It was.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

It was time.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

We'll give you 30 more.

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

I go as Shoddy speaks.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Why?

[Mike (Sports Analyst or Commentator)]

It was teeth whistle.

[Caller or Guest (possibly Joey)]

Be careful, Mike.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

Yeah. And it. And it. And it sings, go, Ravens, go. Yeah.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

So.

[Bucked Up Energy Drink Advertiser]

So

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

why I had to stop, become a fan of the game. On the executive committee of the AFL cio, I was sort of struggling with the fact that I didn't like to watch football anymore. And why? Because every game you see, you know, everything that is just literally lurking behind it. And then I realized that I could only do this job if I loved the players more than the game, because, you know, they use the game to leverage against you. Come on, D, man. We all want 18. 17 games, man. I mean, the game is so good. Why. Why don't you just give the people what they want? The players want it. They want to play football. Why are you taking this from America? And I remember Rich Trumka, over dinner, turning to me, who, before he became the head of the AFL cio, was the union leader for the coal miners. And he said, well, Dee, when I represented the coal miners, do you think I loved the hole they were crawling into? No. And to this day, I still don't like the game. I'll watch it. But if you love the people who do the work, it's a hard thing to love, you know, the hole. It's a hard thing to love the burning building that a fireman is running into. You know, it's hard to love a dark alley that some police officer, you know, makes a decision to walk into. You love the person who does the work. But it became impossible for me to love the game.

[Interviewer (Lawrence)]

Turf wars is the name of the book. The Fight for the soul of America's Game. Demoris, appreciate the time. Thank you.

[Host (Dan Le Batard)]

Thank you.

[McDonald's Representative / NFLPA Executive (DeMaurice Smith)]

And thanks for the. Know if you have any more about the hair or the whistle, let me know.

[DraftKings Advertiser]

Thanks for the handshake.

[Sports Fan or Co-host]

They whistle, don't they? They do.