LAF PRESENTS THE STEPBACK - The Chosen One (feat. Sonny Vaccaro)

Summary

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The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz — LAF PRESENTS THE STEPBACK: "The Chosen One" (feat. Sonny Vaccaro)

Date: May 12, 2026
Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, Amin Elhassan, Izzy Gutierrez
Special Guest: Sonny Vaccaro
Theme: Revisiting LeBron James' 2002 Sports Illustrated "The Chosen One" cover – the immense hype, the backstory, and the shoe wars that followed.

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Episode Overview

The inaugural episode of "The Stepback" limited series spotlights the iconic 2002 Sports Illustrated cover story that anointed 17-year-old LeBron James "The Chosen One." Broadcasting from Miami, Le Batard, Elhassan, Gutierrez, and guest Sonny Vaccaro unpack how a single magazine cover (and the seismic headlines within) preordained a generational talent, fueling arguably the greatest trajectory in modern sports.

The conversation weaves nostalgia with sharp analysis, revisiting the pre-draft mania, the impact of legacy sports media, and the high-stakes sneaker brand battles, culminating in a special interview with legendary shoe executive Sonny Vaccaro.

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Key Discussion Points

Setting the Scene – A Different Era

• [00:00–01:25] The hosts paint a picture of the cultural landscape in February 2002—recalling early-2000s pop culture, sports, and the pre-social media era when print magazines wielded vast influence.
• Nostalgia: Dan finds himself holding a LeBron cover magazine, reflecting on how extraordinary and "impossible" it seemed then to assign such hype to a high school junior.

Notable Quote

"Ohio high school junior LeBron James is so good that he's already being mentioned as the heir to Air Jordan. Get the fuck out of here. You can't write that headline about a 17-year-old and take it seriously."
— Dan Le Batard [00:56]

The Preordained Chosen One

• [01:28–03:18] Discussion about how LeBron was mythologized even before entering the NBA.
• The hosts recall how Sports Illustrated's decision to feature him was both daring and unprecedented—placed him and his family under a "spotlight of impossible hype."
• LeBron not only met the expectations of "The Chosen One"—he exceeded them.

Notable Quote

“It's kind of amazing when you think of impossible hype. Exceeded every expectation. Also not enough. That's a hard one to pull off.”
— Dan Le Batard [03:08]

Hype vs. History: Comparing LeBron to Other Phenoms

• [04:34–07:39] Recollections of the skepticism at the time:
  • Parallels drawn to Felipe Lopez, Harold Miner, and Shay Cotton—other "can’t-miss" prospects who did miss.
  • The hosts reflect that the LeBron cover felt like it could have been a Sid Finch–style hoax.
• But LeBron made the leap from hype to superstardom, unlike his predecessors.

Notable Moment

“The crazy thing isn’t that they were right. Everyone was right. Actually, we were wrong. We undersold how good the guy was.”
— Izzy Gutierrez [07:39]

The ABCD Camp: The Real Moment LeBron Arrived

• [08:27–09:29] The 2001 ABCD camp All-Star Game, where LeBron famously outplayed top prospect Lenny Cooke, made him a phenomenon.
  • LeBron's dominance ended Cooke's run and vaulted LeBron to magazine covers.

“LeBron James is simply the greatest 15, 16-year-old kid I've ever seen in my life at this point.”
— Sonny Vaccaro (audio clip from past) [08:39]

The Power and Pressure of the Cover

• [09:29–11:19] LeBron's "Chosen One" tattoo is directly inspired by Grant Wahl's SI headline.
• Inside SI, there was hesitation about spotlighting a high school kid—concerns amplified by Felipe Lopez's earlier trajectory.
• Grant Wahl, the late journalist, convinced editors with the promise of a "second coming"—imposing mythic, even religious allusions.

“I never anticipated he would have it tattooed across his back and, I don’t know, 44-point type.”
— Greg Kelly (SI editor) [11:19]

High School Hoop Dreams and Mythmaking

• [12:06–14:43] Izzy makes cinematic analogies ("He Got Game," "Anakin Skywalker," "Searching for Bobby Fischer") to underscore how the media relentlessly sought "the next Jordan."
• Dan points out that the Sports Illustrated piece reads like a fable, likening it to classic mythmaking: “It feels like you are looking at LeBron James’s life through the eyes of an old timey reporter from another time…” [14:06]

Witnessing Destiny: The Jordan–LeBron Encounter

• [14:43–16:32] The podcast recalls the lead anecdote of the SI article: a teenage LeBron meeting Michael Jordan, in a moment reminiscent of JFK meeting Bill Clinton—passing the torch to the future.
• Dan is struck by how the cover captured a "peer-to-peer" dynamic between two legends, even before the prophecy was proven.

LeBron's Humble Pre-Fame Self

• [16:41–18:42] LeBron, pre-fame, is just as excited to be featured in SI as any kid would be; Gloria James (his mother) made sure he was noticed by the SI photographer.
• Fun fact: LeBron dunked nearly 30 times for the photo shoot at age 17—even then showing off the stamina that would define his longevity.

The True Miracle: Still Defying Time

• [19:15–19:55] The group marvels at LeBron’s ongoing excellence, pointing out that, decades later, he’s still thriving in the NBA—now even playing alongside his son, Bronny.
• “The idea that Bronny’s in the NBA and still can’t beat his dad. LeBron’s never gonna have to quit against Bronny.” — Dan Le Batard [19:55]

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Sonny Vaccaro: Guest Interview (Shoe Wars & The Business of Belief)

The Legendary Recruiter Reflects

[20:43–32:08]

• Amin welcomes Sonny Vaccaro, the "mafioso" of the sneaker game, who tried to sign LeBron to Adidas for $100 million.
• Sonny recounts seeing LeBron at ABCD camp (“I watched him for 15 minutes, and then you knew immediately…” [21:57]) and knowing instantly he was witnessing the greatest prep talent ever.
  • Recounts the thunderstorm airplane ride home, thinking: “Oh my God, I just saw the greatest high school player I’ve ever seen, and I’m not going to be able to live to tell about it.” [21:57]
• Sonny details the intense personal recruiting, the close relationship with Gloria James (LeBron's mother) and Eddie Jackson (father figure).

“I would have held my honor with these players. And I'm not trying to be nice to your public listening, guys. It’s just true. I never lied. You know, what the hell is a good aligned, okay?”
— Sonny Vaccaro [23:06]

The $100 Million Offer and Shoe Brand Power Struggle

• Vaccaro describes the fateful meeting: "I wasn't nervous... I said, 'No, I’m going to offer you $100 million.' LeBron jumped, Gloria cried."
• But Adidas pulled the deal, and Nike ultimately signed LeBron—changing the landscape of basketball and sneaker culture forever.

"I had assurance by Adidas that they were going to back my play. They knew I was going to do it. I didn't just make it up that day... I wasn't nervous... LeBron sort of said it, maybe around $5 million. I said, 'No, I'm going to offer you $100 million.' LeBron jumped, Gloria cried."
— Sonny Vaccaro [26:25]

Sonny’s War Stories & Michael Jordan Tales

• Sonny shares a legendary story about gambling with Michael Jordan on a transatlantic flight—MJ paid his debt with an ace of spades instead of cash ("We owe. Play gin for 10 hours... And the last hand came, I won. So instead of him giving me the X dollars... he gave me the ace of spades... I got that ace of spades locked up, too." [30:07])
• Dan jokes: "A man who could offer $100 million in a hotel room to a 17-year-old gambled with one of the most famous and exorbitantly lavish gamblers there’s ever been.” [31:05]

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Revisiting the Grant Wahl Article: Journalism, Image, and Narrative

Youthful Writers and Stark Storytelling

• Dan critiques the writing, calling the article "Spartan" and highlighting that both LeBron and Grant Wahl were relatively young and unformed at the time.
• Focuses on the writing style’s limitations and the iconic phrase that LeBron had “an Iversonian street cred that Jordan himself lacked.” [33:21]

The Narrative of Adversity and Image Management

• The group probes how LeBron’s early life story is told—or scrubbed—from the public persona:
  • Dan: “LeBron James does not present as Allen Iverson story on street credibility, Grant Wall is arriving at LeBron James’s life and seeing an assortment of things that come from poverty and see LeBron rising above it..." [34:53]
  • They discuss "poverty porn" and why LeBron prefers the "kid from Akron" framing over a street-life narrative.
• Izzy and Amin note that this approach has helped LeBron and his circle (Maverick Carter, Rich Paul) transcend certain racial and social stereotypes in business culture.

“It is a graduation.” — Izzy Gutierrez [40:41]
“He polished it into something different so that whomever would be put off by street credibility... he wrapped it in Akron in schools and made it something that works in sales.” — Dan Le Batard [38:13]

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Memorable & Notable Quotes

• On LeBron’s aura:
  "When you have that kind of career – not only excellence on the court, but entertainment, entrepreneurship, ownership, social activism – all of those things connecting..."
  — Izzy Gutierrez [02:28]

• On the magnitude of early attention:
  "Do you remember it? Do you like, where were you when it came out?"
  — Amin Elhassan [04:06]

• On the difference LeBron made by controlling his narrative:
  "I think he graduated from the streets. I mean, the kid from Akron in itself is trademarked... It's about business. But he is shaping the story however he wants you to see it."
  — Amin Elhassan [38:43]

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Timestamps: Key Segments

• 00:00–03:18: Opening memories, setting the stage, and the “myth” of LeBron
• 04:34–08:19: The 2002 SI cover, comparisons to previous failed prodigies, and the ABCD camp legend
• 09:29–11:19: The making of the SI cover headline and its consequences
• 12:06–14:43: Pop-culture and cinematic analogies to hype and destiny
• 14:43–16:32: Michael Jordan anoints LeBron—passing the torch
• 18:02–19:55: Behind the scenes of LeBron's SI photo shoot; the making of a legend
• 20:43–32:08: Sonny Vaccaro interview: shoe wars, the business of belief, and wild stories
• 32:28–41:16: Analyzing the Grant Wahl article, narrative control, and race/class in the making of LeBron’s image

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Episode Tone & Style

Richly nostalgic and irreverent, with generous doses of sharp wit and storytelling. The conversation balances deep reverence for LeBron’s greatness with eye-rolling skepticism about hype culture—staying in the Le Batard Show's trademark mix of sincerity and playful mockery.

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For New Listeners:

If you never witnessed the 2002 SI cover in real time, this episode is a masterclass in contextualizing how media, commerce, and mythmaking converged around LeBron James—and why, a quarter-century later, we're still measuring every basketball phenom against his legend.

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Homework for Next Episode

• [41:46] Amin assigns the hosts (and listeners) to watch LeBron’s "The Decision" (July 8, 2010), setting up a deep-dive into the next pivotal moment in LeBron’s mythos.

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END OF SUMMARY

Transcript

[Amin Elhassan]

Dan, what is this relic that you're holding in your hands? Describe what you're holding.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm looking right now at Pudge Rodriguez's statue that he used to have on his front lawn of himself. It's ridiculous, but it's an artifact, an heirloom from a different time when people would read. I don't even know where you'd get this now, but it's LeBron cover. And it is crazy to think that this was all preordained, that everyone knew this was gonna happen. By putting a 17 year old on

[Amin Elhassan]

the COVID Dan, I'm going to help you get into that frame of mind. So it's February 2002. This part might not help. The Patriots had just won the super bowl.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Super Bowl 36.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Unbelievable.

[Amin Elhassan]

That could be at any time, could be at any time in this century. On top of the Billboard charts. Ja Rule and Ashanti, always on time, right behind them. Nickelback.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Nice.

[Amin Elhassan]

Nickelback. How you remind me.

[Dan Le Batard]

So a long time ago.

[Amin Elhassan]

Been a long time ago.

[Dan Le Batard]

Different time.

[Amin Elhassan]

Do you, Dan, now that I've painted the picture, do you remember where you were or your thoughts when you saw that initially?

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, I'm looking at this now. I'm looking at the headline now. And you tell me what I'm supposed to think when this is a headline on a story about a 17 year old that's in a national magazine. Ohio high school junior LeBron James is so good that he's already being mentioned as the heir to Air Jordan. Get the fuck out of here. You can't write that headline about a 17 year old and take it seriously. I'm tired of this man being celebrated

[Amin Elhassan]

for what this is the step back.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Steps back, puts up a three bang. LeBron James from downtown, the Cleveland Cavaliers select LeBron James. LeBron, what's your decision?

[Dan Le Batard]

I made a difficult decision, but I understood what my future was about.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I believe our president is trying to divide us. My first response was, you bomb them.

[Amin Elhassan]

Welcome to episode one.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I was on the COVID of Sports

[Amin Elhassan]

Illustrated, the chosen one.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

At that moment, around 17, I knew I could be LeBron.

[Amin Elhassan]

Okay, guys. Well, I kind of want to explain to the audience what we're doing here. Right? This is the step back. It's a limited series and every season we're going to focus on a single topic.

[Dan Le Batard]

All I heard was limited there, that this is a limited series, that the series is filled with limitations. Oh, I would say we're doing this because this is the most recognizable film. Famous transcendent athlete of. I'm going to say a generation, but it's probably two if you count generations as 20 to 25 years.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

He's the Paul Bunyan of the NBA, right? And for the three of us, we're old enough where we all experienced it real time. But if you're in your 20s or even your early 30s, some of this stuff must sound bizarre. The idea that a literal child could be on the COVID of the biggest publication in sports in the world and called the Chosen One, and somehow they undershot how good he was. When you have that kind of career, and a career that spans not only excellence on the court, but also dalliances in entertainment, dalliances in entrepreneurship and ownership, and then, of course, social activism, all of those things connecting.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's kind of amazing when you think of impossible hype. Exceeded every expectation. Also not enough. That's a hard one to pull off.

[Amin Elhassan]

And it's still happening. That's the intriguing part. It's not like we're telling some story that we know how it wraps up,

[Izzy Gutierrez]

which means there shouldn't be a limited series. We should have a season two ongoing, right?

[Dan Le Batard]

Unlimited series.

[Amin Elhassan]

So let's go the unlimited series. And for each episode of this unlimited series, I'm going to give you guys. And this is maybe where you wanted to keep it, limited homework.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Okay?

[Amin Elhassan]

You're going to get some homework. The audience is going to get some homework, and then we'll talk about it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ruined it.

[Amin Elhassan]

We'll have actual experts, not just us. Even though I think Amin might be the most expert of all of us at who made those moments actually happen. They're going to be with us and take us back through time.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm more of a LeBron expert than you are. I'm more.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

We'll do a scorecard at the end.

[Amin Elhassan]

Look at the corner, the very bottom right hand corner there. And it tells you the AOL keyword search for Sports Illustrated. That's the equivalent of today you getting a book or a magazine and it telling you what to Google to find the magazine. It's like, that's kind of odd. But back then when this article came out, 3.2 million issues a week. I mean, that's ridiculous. About a third of that now. Do you remember it? Do you like. Where were you when it came out?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I was, I think, working for the Atlanta Hawks part time.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

You worked for the Hawks? Yeah.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I did not know that it was a part time. At that time, I was doing, like, game operations, which is a little contest that they do in the arena. And at the same time, I Have a cousin who is roughly the same age as LeBron and had played against him, I think, in is eight or one of those high school tournaments and wasn't impressed. That was my favorite course. Like, he's all right.

[Amin Elhassan]

Okay. I was covering the Miami Heat at the time, I believe, for the Palm beach posters, just before I got to the Miami Herald. And this concept of, oh, this magazine is going to tell me who the future is.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

So I do remember something else from that cover. I remember thinking they said the same thing about Felipe Lopez.

[Amin Elhassan]

Exactly.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

That Felipe Lopez growing up in New York. Felipe Lopez was.

[Dan Le Batard]

God, no, it's the same thing. It was the same. It wasn't the same picture of Felipe Lopez, but it was the same sort of joy for basketball that they were putting on their cover. Like, you won't believe this kid that's going to St. John's he's better than anyone who's ever done it.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Yes. And it was actually lampooned. I don't know what the exact word is, but Spike Lee, and he got game, did the same thing. In the fictional universe, Jesus Shuttlesworth was on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, but that was kind of an ode to Felipe Lopez, who had that kind of mythical reputation at the time. And so when LeBron James comes on the COVID it was two things. One is like, okay, here we go again. And second of all, you're telling me that the greatest player of the next generation is in Ohio? No chance.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, but, Izzy, here's the thing, though. I'm not kidding you when I tell you of this cover. And Sports Illustrated made me gun shy in this regard. I thought of Sid Finch, the character that Sports Illustrated fictionalized as someone who threw 140 miles an hour with a single boot on one leg, and you never saw his foot. And the first 23 letters of the article spelled out happy April Fool's Day. Like, the first word. Like, I thought, I'm looking at this magazine, like, what do you mean someone from Ohio as a junior is going to declare for the draft as a junior, and you're going to tell me this person is as good as Michael Jordan? And then just to look at it in retrospect and be like, wait a minute. Not only was it not fiction, it was all right and true.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yeah. And that's what got me about this one in particular, because we were already in an era where people were telling you, be careful who you compare these high school players to. Harold Miner, you came out as Baby Jordan Shay Cotton.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Oh, From California.

[Amin Elhassan]

Cotton was on a Sports Illustrated those

[Izzy Gutierrez]

California people still talk about him with bated breath.

[Amin Elhassan]

And so it just makes you wonder, how did everybody know? Because when you read these quotes, when you listen to what they said about him in the past, they know it was 100%. They're saying, this guy is going to be it. Danny Ainge was quoted as saying we would draft him number one right now as a junior. I like Jay Williams. I like the. That Chinese guy over there. He didn't even say his name, Yao Ming. But I would draft this guy first.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

My mentor, David Griffin, at the time, he was working his way up through the Sun's front office, and he ran into Danny Ainge going to a game to watch LeBron James. And he said, Danny, literally five minutes in the game closes, notebook gets him. All right, we're leaving because they carpooled together. And Griffith's saying, wait, what do you mean? The game just started. He's like, name me five guys that you wouldn't trade right now for the right to have that kid. And he was a junior in high school at the time. And again, the crazy thing isn't that they were right. Everyone was right. Actually, we were wrong. We undersold how good the guy was. Yeah, he lived up to every single expectation and surpassed it by a lot.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's crazy to think of someone exceeding expectations when the headline is the Chosen One. And he's a junior in high school and he's 17 years old now.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Izzy, remind me, had this cover come out before or after the ABCD camp showdown with Lenny Cook?

[Amin Elhassan]

After.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Because to me, that was the first time I remember hearing about it.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

LeBron James is simply the greatest 15, 16 year old kid I've ever seen in my life at this point.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

That's the moment where he became a national phenomenon.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

He has a chance when it's all over. One of the greatest players ever to play the game.

[Amin Elhassan]

That's what sort of was the motivation for the article.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Got it right. So for those that don't know, the best high school players in the country every summer would gather in Teaneck, New Jersey, and no one knew who LeBron James was. Everyone knew Lenny Cook. He was the best player in the country. And the camp always ends with an all star game. And LeBron basically destroyed Lenny Cook. And Lenny Cook's career in life took a downward spiral. And LeBron became this huge platform and I guess culminating with this magazine cover. But that was the first time I remember hearing about him.

[Dan Le Batard]

His whole life changed after this magazine article. Cause he was, no matter how famous he was in Akron. He was still a 17 year old that was not known nationally. And he has this magazine cover tattooed on his back. Correct.

[Amin Elhassan]

He has chosen one tattooed on his back and it's the numeral one, not the spelling of the numeral ones.

[Dan Le Batard]

But that came from Grant Wall. Our friend Grant Wall wrote this article, the late Grant Wall and the Chosen One. He didn't become the chosen one until it was on this headline, on this magazine. But also beyond that, when you talk about the power of the magazine at the time and the ridiculousness of 3 million people in America learning who you are, this picture is something that introduced us to 20 years of basketball after that. And the conversation around this at the time was, should you put a 17 year old on the COVID of a magazine? And is that irresponsible because he's not a professional? I just want to come in here and play hard. It really doesn't matter if I'm the

[Sonny Vaccaro]

best player in the camp, you know, I still know what I can do.

[Amin Elhassan]

So that is a great turning point here, because another person who saw LeBron James there at that ABCD camp was Grant Wall. He pitched this story to his SI editors and it was that concern that Dan just mentioned. It was, hey, how can we put this much pressure on, on this young gentleman? And we actually talked to one of them, Greg Kelly, and he talked about

[Izzy Gutierrez]

how they were reluctant at first to

[Greg Kelly]

even do the story and certainly to put it on the COVID You know, we'd had some bad experiences in the past with putting Felipe Lopez on the COVID before he'd ever played a game. And his career didn't work out all that great.

[Amin Elhassan]

And so Grant talked his editors into doing it. He ended up not only doing the story, but getting it put on the

[Greg Kelly]

COVID I'm guessing it must have been a bit of a slow news week. That's probably the first week of the Olympics, which is there's not that much going on. So I think, yeah, I think a good high school basketball phenom was better than snowboarders. You know, we were kind of looking for the next Michael Jordan. You know, the kicker to the story was that LeBron had a mocked up cover of Sports Illustrated himself that said, is he the next Michael Jordan? You know, in retrospect, I think it was just something out of my Catholic upbringing that this was the second coming. And so he's the chosen one. More that than Star wars or something. I never anticipated he would have it tattooed across his back and, I don't know, 44 point type all right, there's

[Izzy Gutierrez]

a bunch of movie references I'm about to unload on all you guys. Number one, Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one.

[Dan Le Batard]

You must see it.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Clouded this boy's future is it was prophesied this guy would come along and bring balance to the force.

[Amin Elhassan]

I'm gonna trust you on this.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Number two, he's not wrong about the search for the next Michael Jordan. You guys remember searching for Bobby Fischer, right? That movie. And it was about like, who's gonna be the next great chess phenom? And it turns out to be some kid or whatever. Look, starting in 93, the idea that, okay, who's gonna be next? Because Jordan has retired and Grant Hill for a little bit, and Penny Hardaway for a little bit, and Kobe Bryant for a little bit, and. And Tracy McGrady. And there were all of these guys that everyone got hyped up like, okay, here we go. Vince Carter. This is the next Michael Jordan. And none of them quite lived up to that moniker. Right? And then the third movie reference. And you guys are gonna love this one, right? When he talks about his Catholic upbringing, made me think of he got game. It was Ray Allen at Jesus Shuttlesworth with a crown of thorns and a crucifix.

[Amin Elhassan]

I do remember that, yes.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Dan, you saw a young a rod, right? In high school. Did you have those kind of vibes?

[Dan Le Batard]

No, no. That was not anything like what this was. Even though everyone knew he'd be good because of the body type, language, the swing. I just don't know how you do these measurements in basketball. Like I'm amin is somebody who studies measures how good these people are. There has never been anybody that's not 7 foot 4 that you can make this kind of projection on at 17 years old. Can you guys imagine when he asked me about a rod? Just imagine, because I did see that and it became obvious like he got to the big leagues at 19 or 20 or whatever and looked like a grown man physically. But imagine the absurdity of putting on the COVID a 17 year old baseball player and saying the next Babe Ruth. One of the things that you guys said that was interesting about this article, it really does feel like Grantland Rice, the original famous sports writer who wrote about the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. It feels like you are looking at LeBron James's life through the eyes of an old timey reporter from another time. Right before the entire machine changes everything like that you're getting a glimpse of while he's meeting Michael Jordan in the opening paragraph of the story. This is how the torch gets passed and we can all watch it right before everything changes before our eyes over the next. The coolest thing about this article is that during a slow news time, they got everything right by just taking the high school kid and saying we shouldn't go with a snowboarder this week.

[Amin Elhassan]

Well, this article begins with an exchange between Michael Jordan and LeBron James. But Grant compared that to the photo, if people remember, of JFK shaking hands with a young Bill Clinton.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Yeah.

[Amin Elhassan]

And how prescient it seemed to be like this man is. The next coming will lead, whether it be NBA or the country. I thought that that was so perfect when you see Michael Jordan come up to the 17 year old and say, hey, how's mom? And you see that Michael Jordan clearly, for whatever reason is giving this guy attention and believes in whatever he is. I've written a ton of stories. I've never had a lead just, just show up to me just like that, so perfectly.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, it is, you know, some form, as ridiculous as I may sound saying this, there is an anointing in game recognizing game because it should be LeBron being awed. The presence of Michael Jordan, like through the prism Grant Wall as a metal arc colleague, being at the very start of his career, very start of his career, an accomplished career to be watching. What is the future? What you now can see as the future unfolding before it has actually happened. That is a cool part of the story to see. And the scene that Grant Wall is setting for you is like, oh, look, the King. Michael is paying his respect to something he sees that is that obvious. And that King is used to genuflecting at every turn from others. So the idea that the lead of this story is how are these two being treated as peers? This is why I'm telling you that when I read it, I thought it was the Sid Finch article. Because I'm like, this is a moment that a writer is witnessing that he is making into a moment that it's not allowed to be.

[Amin Elhassan]

Cool note from the actual exchange that they had, that was of course Washington Wizard Michael Jordan and he had just hit a game winner against the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[Dan Le Batard]

Here we go with 1 and 6. 10 seconds left. Wizards need the bucket to the win. Jordan the jumper. You got it at the buzzer. Jordan does it to Cleveland again.

[Amin Elhassan]

Those guys in that car with Grant Wall on the way to that Wizards game in a one hour car ride with LeBron and his friends. You know, LeBron is sitting there with the ox. You know, he's, he's playing Jay Z.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is just the last look that you get at LeBron before his life totally changes because he's riding around with a writer who would be granted this access by a 17 year old kid who just wants to be a little bit cool.

[Amin Elhassan]

And here's the other part. He's excited about the idea that he's going to be on the SI cover. Well, there's a quick story about how we got this cover, which I think is kind of Barry LeBron. We actually spoke to a guy who shot the COVID His name was Mike Lebrecht. And LeBron's mother, Gloria was involved in this too, because Mike was shooting some other players at this ABCD camp. And Gloria just started asking him questions.

[Mike Lebrecht]

His mom mentioned to me, what you got going on over here? I was like, I'm taking pictures of the kids as they come off. And she goes, oh, you got to get my son. I'm like, all right, we'll bring him on, you know. So Gloria brought LeBron over to me and we did some shots. Fast forward after that whole, you know, weekend, I brought the film back to

[Amin Elhassan]

Sports Illustrated and eventually they said, hey, okay, you can shoot LeBron. And they went and shot LeBron at St. Vincent St. Mary's in their locker room.

[Mike Lebrecht]

I mean, this kid rolled in eight o' clock in the morning. I also set up a black piece of cloth on the wall, and that's where he was posing. That wind up being the COVID shot there. But he went to a Catholic school, as we all know, and they had like a cathedral. And I did shots of him with the stained glass behind him. And then I also did shots of him dunking. I had him dunked, literally. And I feel guilty about this now as a young kid, literally almost 30 times. And he did have practice later on that day.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

He'd have 10 more years if he hadn't dunked 30 times that day. 25 years ago.

[Amin Elhassan]

Did you think that this would be the COVID that came out of everything that he just described?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

The stained glass, I thought would have been the one, right? That would have been the one. But in retrospect, this is such a great shot. And, you know, he also talks about choosing the color of the ball, choosing that color because he thought it would pop more. And it's so funny because I never thought about what color the ball was. If you had asked me, hey, what color was the ball that was on the COVID of Sports illustrated for that LeBron cover? Couldn't tell you. I would have really out in orange.

[Dan Le Batard]

The Idea that that guy made LeBron James dunk 30 times in a gym when LeBron James was 17 years old, and that now he would still be taking alley oops from half court in the league. I don't know what you guys think is the craziest part of this story. There are many crazy parts, but the fact that he is still doing it, averaging 20 plus points, A. Like it's up there.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Yes, it's up there. A little bit behind. He has a child who's also in the NBA.

[Dan Le Batard]

That too.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Or he's better than that child. By the way, you talk about Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonds, you can talk about Ken Griffey. Like, the fact that, like, oh, dad is still way better.

[Dan Le Batard]

Great. Way better than him. I hadn't even thought of that. Like, on highly questionable. We talked to so many athletes about when it is that they stop playing their son, their teenage sons, and they're like, yeah, the first time he beat me, we never played again. The idea that Bronnie's in the NBA and still can't beat his dad. LeBron's never gonna have to quit against Bronnie. LeBron's gonna be 54 years old, grandfather to Bronnie's children, and still busting his son's ass.

[Amin Elhassan]

Hey, Sonny, can you hear me now?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Yes, I can.

[Amin Elhassan]

I can hear very now. We can hear you too. How are you, sir?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I'm fine, thank you.

[Amin Elhassan]

Awesome. You're here with Ami Israel. We have Amin Elhassan and Dan Levitard.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Okay, I'm signing. It's been a long time, Dan, since we had talked, that's for sure. And this is an interesting chapter in all of our lives, right. Who thought all those years would have passed. And here we are, and he's still going. Isn't amazing.

[Amin Elhassan]

And now we're joined by a legend of the shoe game, Sonny Vaccaro. He was at Nike, where he signed Michael Jordan. You might remember seeing Matt Damon play him in the movie Air. He was at Adidas, where He almost landed LeBron James. He was also at Reebok. He's the author of Legends and the Memoir of an American Original. That's Soules. S O L E S. Of course, Sonny, thank you for talking to us here. Sonny, there's a scene in your book from the famed ABCD Gamp in the summer of 2001 where you see Lebron change out of these oversized shorts that seem to, like, be slowing him down.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

That happened just like that. And his coach, who was coaching his high school coach at that Time, you know, told him he had to tighten those pants up. You know, we got a guy watching you up there, interested in giving you a lot of money. That happened.

[Amin Elhassan]

You watched him for 15 minutes, and then you knew immediately that you wanted to sign him to a lifetime deal to Adidas. And then you got on a plane and it was a thunderstorm, and you thought to yourself, oh, my God, I just saw the greatest high school player I've ever seen, and I'm not going to be able to live to tell about it.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I did say that. Worst plane ride Pam and I ever had. It will never leave my psyche as long as I have a mind, that's for sure.

[Amin Elhassan]

I'm going to read a quote from you in the SI story where you said, this is going to be like a Shakespearean drama. Basically, only two people are involved. Me or Michael Adidas or Nike. What else was there in terms of the recruiting other than just the dollar amount?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I. I followed him. I didn't miss a game if it was. There was one game where Phil Knight showed up, too, to sit on the other side of the floor in Los Angeles. So it got to be the personal recruiting of LeBron James. I was closer to the family than anyone that, you know, sometimes they change history or people for, and that's fine. But you can't take away the time I spent with Gloria and Eddie. I mean, they were in my home.

[Amin Elhassan]

Just to clarify, Eddie Jackson is the father figure that LeBron grew up with that you're speaking of there?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Yeah, Eddie. Eddie was, you know, in his world that he lived in, he was a little bit different, you know, but he was the guy that was running the show at that time. We could have forced him to do anything. I would have held my honor with these players. And I'm not trying to be nice to your public listening, guys. It's just true. I never lied. You know, what the hell is a good aligned, okay? And then I'm going to have to lied to another guy. So I. I believe that he would have gone over it. I don't know if it would be in a bidding contest or whatever, or we would just shut it down. I have no idea what Adidas would have done, but we never had a chance to do it.

[Amin Elhassan]

What do you remember about when this SI cover came out? Did it actually, like, drive up LeBron's price in negotiations there?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Nothing could have driven it up, but what it did was a stable, exactly what the public had heard about, because at that time, Sports Illustrated cover was one of the most Important things you could do if you were an athlete. So let's put it that way, they're no longer that in that situation. But yes, it meant a lot because everybody in the nation saw it. And you know, and I'm fortunate enough to have an autographed copy of that from LeBron. I mean, so, so I go way back getting that in the mail and all that. But that led him, that was his opening to America. Yes.

[Dan Le Batard]

Sonny, I just really don't understand how it is that it can be that obvious to you upon sight that a 17 year old is going to be that much better than everyone else. You have a lifetime of experience evaluating these people. You know how subjective and scientific it can be and can't be. How is it possible at 17 that you would be that clear eyed about seeing this?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I can't explain that, but it's obviously something to it. Inside of my mind, inside of my memory. The Jordan thing was the most fantastic thing that I ever can go back to. I saw him for 17 seconds. Now you can transfer this to Kobe, to LeBron, you know, to Tracy. None of these guys had I ever seen before I made that decision. I knew on all of them. But LeBron was the easiest. Anybody else can see it. Once they had the opportunity, I had this great chance to do it first. I'm sure other people would have said the same thing. No one would have been as dramatic as me, gentlemen. But there's no question in my mind that, you know, at that time when I saw him to make this decision, there was no holding back because after that is when I offered him the $100 million in our hotel room in Los Angeles, that I knew that Adidas promised me they were going to thing. So I knew it when I left that gym in 20 minutes. And for anyone just like thinking, who in hell Sonny Vaccaro. The only thing I can say, not in my defense, but in the reality of life, I've done it before.

[Dan Le Batard]

For those who don't know, just Sonny Vaccaro, beyond being just a legend, he's also a mafioso. I mean it with the greatest of compliments. Yes, figurative mafioso. A gangster who runs over the sneaker game. I want the details, Sonny. Give us the details that put us in that room of sneaker gangster Sonny Vaccaro saying, I know who to give $100 million because I'm a gangster.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I'll never forget that room. We, we drove up after a high school game. I think Ohio State was playing a football game that day. So we had to make the football game. It was Gloria and LeBron Maverick wasn't in it. No other people were in it. And I had assurance by Adidas that they were going to back my play. They knew I was going to do it. I didn't just make it up that day. I told them, we're going to give him the biggest contract ever given. And they said, yes, you can. So when I went there, I was prepared. I wasn't nervous. I wasn't, whatever. And the first thing I asked was, what do you think you're worth? LeBron sort of said it, maybe around $5 million. They had a couple other ones want to close. And I said, no, I'm going to offer you $100 million. LeBron jumped, Gloria cried. So to go back to the Mafia, I take it in a strange world that you put that as a compliment, but not as meant. I didn't have a sledgehammer ready to go to hit him or I didn't have a gun.

[Dan Le Batard]

I meant it as a compliment. You know you're a gangster. I know.

[Amin Elhassan]

I agree.

[Dan Le Batard]

We all know you're a gangster. Look, this is a different time in the sneaker game. It doesn't sound sane, that Adidas. Okay, yeah, go give a high school kid $100 million.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

What if I tell you that's what Phil Knight told me about Michael? I'll say this for the record. When I was doing all the. All the players I ever worked, all the companies I've worked for, going back to Sean Livingston, the sign with Reebok, and then got hired, all the people, it was my number. It was never their number. That's Michael came up because that was our budget. But I said, do it all. Give it all. So this is the first time someone asked me something like that. So I think it's a great compliment to, you know, whatever I was able to do. But they also gave me permission. I didn't do this by, you know, just. And then tricking them. I did this. I said, this is what I'm gonna do. That's why I quit.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Sonny, did you ever get any clarification why they changed their mind? Because in your book, it says you didn't know that the number had changed until right then in the meeting with Gloria and LeBron.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I never asked them what the hell they did.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Wow.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I was gone. They lied to me because we knew. And everyone in that room that gave me that contract knew what was supposed to be in there. That's what I'm saying. They lied and they lied to me. To lie to this kid. I didn't say that we'd get Nike. Nike's still going to make a bid. There's no question. I doubt Phil Knight would have given up. I think kid have given him more than 100 million. To be honest with you, he couldn't afford to lose LeBron James. Let's be honest. I had Kobe and Tracy and Jermaine o'. Neal. I mean, Jermaine was a pretty damn good player too. I got out of high school. Adidas signs LeBron. The game's over. Just be logical. If we end up those four names that I just gave you are iconic. Tracy's a first, first addition when he's in the hall of Fame. Coming from nowhere. Kobe's destiny was, you know, made the day he come from Italy with his family. I mean, these guys are legend, legends also. And then you got this kid and you have them throughout. And who knows what else happens? I mean, so no matter what, people come back and they'll have an answer for what I'm saying. Because you can't play out the cards. I didn't get them. But if they did happen, I just want to find somebody better than, you know, LeBron and Kobe and Tracy at that young age. I know we're on a clock, so. But that's what I'm saying. Who can tell? But if we got him, Sonny, I'm

[Amin Elhassan]

not worried about the clock. I am worried about that magazine that's signed. You got to get that thing in a protective cover. You can't just leave that in open air.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I also have the ace of spades that Michael gave me on the 10 hour ride from Paris to back to Chicago when he paid me the debt because I won.

[Dan Le Batard]

You beat Michael at gambling and cards or something else? What's the debt that he owed you?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

We owe. Play gin for 10 hours, stopped to go to the bathroom, have dinner, and I beat him. I won more. We were playing for a big number. Once it reached a certain number, we quit keeping score. And honest to God, we were landing in Chicago. And that's what he said when the plane hit dawn, it'd be the last hand. And the last hand came, I won. So instead of him giving me the X dollars.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, that's bullshit. Wait a minute. That's bullshit. Like, how much money did he owe you?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I tell you what, I swear to God almighty, it was a tie game, so he owed me the one. Whatever. We were playing for the games, it was more than a dollar, but he gave me the ace of spades. It was the ace of spades. And I got that. I got that ace of spades locked up, too.

[Dan Le Batard]

A man who could offer $100 million in a hotel room to a 17 year old gambled with one of the most famous and exorbitantly lavish gamblers there's ever been. You beat him for a sum of money which was blank.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Blank. You're right. Whatever. Whatever it was, it better being a mystery. But I. But he gave me the card. That's what's great.

[Amin Elhassan]

Well, get that card appraised and see how much that thing is worth.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not great, Sonny, the card's not worth whatever you would have won playing gin for 10 hours with Michael Jordan.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I don't know. I don't know. I kind of feel like the card might be worth.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's. It's. You're saying you got a card that's priceless and I'm saying there was a price and you won't tell us what it is.

[Amin Elhassan]

You gotta talk to Michael.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Well, I'm not going to either.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're full of vacar.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

See, doesn't that make it more valuable if I don't tell anybody anything?

[Amin Elhassan]

The book is Legends and Souls, the Memoir of an American Original. Sonny Vaccaro, thank you so much.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you, Sonny.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

We're gonna go one on one off the record someday.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you, Sonny. Good seeing you.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Thanks, Sonny.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

God bless you. Thank you all.

[Dan Le Batard]

One of the things about this article, I don't know if you guys noticed this, maybe Izzy reads this way, but I read writing as a writer, so I see the places here where Grant Wall is a bit primitive as a writer because this is a young Grant Wall doing a story on a young LeBron James who also hasn't actually lived all that much yet because he's 17 years old. So this an article that could have been written in a high school newspaper in some ways by two very talented people who happen to be in high school.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Give me an example, a specific example.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, it's just Grant Wall was an exceptional writer and this was like a bit Spartan, like, he's not doing. He's not doing a lot of flowery here. He's just talking about. He's taking a snapshot of a high school. Grant Wall, by the end of his career, was a great writer. He was not yet a great writer when he wrote this story.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

This is a snapshot of LeBron as a 17 year old and Grant Wall as a young writer.

[Amin Elhassan]

He was 28, so he wasn't.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

But young in his career, though.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yes, yes. There Was a line where he mentioned that he had, quote, an Iversonian street cred that Jordan himself lacked. Was he right at the time?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

So that was the conjecture at the time. The idea that Jordan corporate Iverson, the people's champ, right. Like he had the streets on lock. And that was described as street cred, which we see now is like, oh, that's not a great reference. Street cred, right. But I would say at the time, irrespective of Grant's evolution as a writer, that's how people talk, man, about our sport. This wasn't like, look at this guy writing like this. Everybody wrote like this. This article, this cover that we have here from him as a high school junior was both ridiculous standard setting and at the same time, in retrospect, very sober and conservative from what he actually became.

[Dan Le Batard]

I would say conservative in another way too, because some of the framing of this no biological father aggregated cocaine trafficking, like blasting Jay Z in the car and also using his two way pay jerk.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yeah, Dan, I wanted to ask you about sort of this idea of LeBron not really wanting to tell his history, right? Not really wanting to use his overcoming of his childhood, if you will. Not necessarily, necessarily ignoring it, but just, hey, I don't need that to be discussed when it comes to why I made it.

[Dan Le Batard]

If he were to talk about whatever the poverty porn was in his life that actually shaped him. When he says tangentially here, I saw a lot of drugs and crime. But I'm not talking about the cliched stuff. I'm talking about the details to his story that he has never told about how he was shaped and how it is that Grant Wall would arrive at LeBron James street credibility. Like LeBron James does not present as Allen Iverson story on street credibility, Grant Wall is arriving at LeBron James's life and seeing an assortment of things that come from poverty and see LeBron rising above it. Whatever the difficulties are in having a single mom and chaos in your life that makes you miss 100 days of fourth grade classes because you're moving around from apartment to one.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

One of the things to that is, and I did not know this until rereading this article years and years later, LeBron's grandmother passed away only a couple years after he was born. So typically what we see is when you have young parents, their parents have a very pivotal role in the raising of the child. Well, here's Gloria James at 18 years old, alone in the world. But I go back to defend Grant Wald on this as a 17 year old. And this is the backstory that is the archetype that everyone was operating off of. The NBA has become a middle class sport. Basketball's come middle class sport. All these kids come from middle class homes. But at this point in time, the early 2000s, the archetype of the NBA player has to struggle to make it whatever. And the guys who don't fit that archetype are few and far between. And you know who one of those guys is? Michael Jordan, who came from a middle class family. Kobe Bryant came from an affluent family. Right. But Michael Jordan, who's the comp.

[Amin Elhassan]

Right.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Jordan. Two parent, household. Parents were professionals, educated, decidedly middle class. Allen Iverson, single mother. Allen Iverson growing up in very rough part of Virginia. Allen Iverson surrounding himself like LeBron with friends. These conciliators that I have constitute my family and carrying them along with me throughout. Right.

[Amin Elhassan]

So is it just him wanting to shape his story however he wants it told? Is there a level of embarrassment that he doesn't address?

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I think there is what he wants his Horatio Alger story to be about, and he doesn't want it to be about that particular thing.

[Dan Le Batard]

I found it interesting, though. Buzz Bissinger and a whole lot of great writers have tried to make their way into the details of this, and no one's actually achieved it. Like, I'm actually interested in the journey that goes from, oh, that person's proud of being from the street, proud of representing the street. LeBron has never done that.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I wouldn't go as far as he doesn't have pride in it. I do think to myself, where he has wanted to be and has arrived as a business mogul in those boardrooms, in those interactions, what gives me credibility if they see me as a guy from the street or if they see me as a peer in this. And so it's the difference between Allen Iverson's friends being called a posse and LeBron James friends being business moguls.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

But it's purposeful, though.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is what I'm saying. That's my point.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

But that's my point.

[Dan Le Batard]

This part's hugely interesting. It serves him and his economy to scrub as much of the street off of him in sales. I don't know if it's. And just say Akron. Just make it Akron instead of make it street credibility, which is what make the story when he's talking about Horatio Alger and how do you clean this up to make it palatable to America? Just make it. He loves Akron. LeBron transcends street credibility, which is a pretty strong credibility to have.

[Amin Elhassan]

I think he graduated from the streets. I mean, the kid from Akron in itself is trademarked like, that's. That just shows you it's. It's about business. But he is shaping the story however he wants you to see it.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

But he didn't leave it behind. Right? Through the school, through his various philanthropic efforts and his standing up for social causes. He hasn't left it behind. And it goes back to the very first paragraph of the story. Who was his role model? The guy he wanted to be was Michael Jordan. And Michael Jordan was corporate excellence. That's what he was. Michael Jordan commanded and demanded respect in any boardroom, any golf course, anywhere he went. No one talked about him being a country boy from Wilmington, North Carolina. They talked about Michael Jordan as being this. Almost like an avatar for business dominance.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, but what I'm talking about, though, I mean, here, like, when you say he didn't leave it behind, I believe he did leave it behind. And it doesn't mean that he neglects Akron, because he doesn't, obviously. I'm saying he polished it into something different so that whomever would be put off by street credibility. Yes, whomever that Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes and Allen Iverson put off with the coolness of street cred credibility. He didn't do Republicans buy shoes, too, but he did put street credibility over there, Rapid and Akron in schools and make it something that works in sales like it's brilliant as an economic model.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

There are hundreds of thousands of people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds who end up getting opportunities and privileges to go to a certain. Maybe you got to go to a certain high school, and as a result, you got to go to a certain university and you graduate. And when you walk into a room as a graduate of an Ivy League institution. Right. It's not necessarily a disavowing or a distancing. It is what Izzy said. It is a graduation.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Yeah, I went.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

I was there in my proverbial middle school of life.

[Amin Elhassan]

As did Maverick Carter.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Yes, as did Rich Paul.

[Amin Elhassan]

As did Rich Paul.

[Izzy Gutierrez]

Right. And they all benefited from this in that when they walk into a room, Dan, Business people, particularly white business people, people don't look at them as some guys, some riff raff, some whatever. They look at them as peers. And that starts with how you tell my story. If you constantly tell my story as one of poverty and drugs and crime and all that stuff, then it's always the prism in which these boardrooms and these business people are always gonna look at me through.

[Dan Le Batard]

Do you not think it's interesting though, Izzy, that for all the powers that this human being has shown to have over the years, that he gets to control that part of the story. Like I thought that people who were allowed to tell all the parts of the story and revisiting his past in something other than Akron schools, How many

[Amin Elhassan]

people are actually going to go back and read the story?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

No, right?

[Dan Le Batard]

No, we've wasted. No, no. We've wasted how much time today talking about a story that nobody has thought about for 20 plus years?

[Amin Elhassan]

So I got a little bit of homework for you guys. I want you to watch an 11 minute video. I think you know one of these. The answer to the question everybody wants to know, LeBron, what's your decision?

[Dan Le Batard]

It's a book club. Why is it a video? I thought you guys were going to make fun of me about the fact that I thought this actual magazine, entire cover was what was tattooed on his back. I didn't think it was just the chosen one, Dan. I'm sorry, I'm embarrassed by it. I took no joy from admitting that to you guys. I just now delighted in the idea of this entire cover being on LeBron James's back. Like, what a terrible idea that would be. And yet somehow not as bad as the one not fitting on his back because the tattoo artist stinks.

[Amin Elhassan]

Including the price of the magazine and the AOL keyword, Sports Illustrated.