Local Hour: Michael Jordan vs. Nikola Jokic

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Local Hour: Michael Jordan vs. Nikola Jokic"

Episode Details:

• Title: Local Hour: Michael Jordan vs. Nikola Jokic
• Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz
• Guests: Billy Corben, Mike Ryan, Andrew Hawkins
• Release Date: January 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, the conversation centers around a bold assertion by host Dan Le Batard: Nikola Jokic is a better offensive basketball player than the legendary Michael Jordan. The hosts and guests delve deep into this provocative claim, exploring statistical comparisons, cultural impact, and the nuances of player performance.

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The Argument: Jokic vs. Michael Jordan

Dan Le Batard initiates the discussion by expressing frustration over the lack of traction his take has gained: “[02:04] Dan Le Batard: ...the take has been that Jokic is a better offensive basketball player than Michael Jordan."

Andrew Hawkins reacts with surprise, stating, “[03:13] Andrew Hawkins: Okay. Yeah. I'm shocked that that hasn't taken off the ground.”

This sets the stage for a heated debate among the panel about the merits of Jokic’s offensive prowess compared to Jordan’s iconic legacy.

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Statistical Superiority vs. Cultural Icon

Dan Le Batard emphasizes the importance of statistics over subjective opinions: “[04:00] Dan Le Batard: ...if you put it in front of you, and Jokic is saying right now, this is the best basketball I've ever played. And the only reason he's not going to win MVPs is the same reason Michael Jordan didn't win them is because they were bored with voting for Michael Jordan.”

Billy Corben challenges this by questioning the definition of offensive excellence: “**[03:36] Billy Corben: ...He doesn’t take guys off the dribble and pull up on them like Michael Jordan does.””

Mike Ryan adds, “[04:27] Mike Ryan: He needs five more titles. There’s no way that body holds up for five more titles.” highlighting concerns about Jokic sustaining peak performance.

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Aesthetics of Play vs. Mastery

The panel delves into the differences between Jokic’s statistically impressive yet less flashy style and Jordan’s high-flying, entertaining gameplay.

Dan Le Batard argues for Jokic’s mastery and efficiency: “**[05:13] Dan Le Batard: Myth, fun, and memories against facts. Look at the offensive stats—rebounds, assists, efficiencies, scoring.””

In contrast, Mike Ryan contends that Jokic’s style lacks the entertainment value that draws fans: “[05:35] Mike Ryan: ...no one goes to the gym and says, you know what? I'm gonna play like Jokic today. It’s just not like he was a Michael Jordan...”

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Comparisons to Other Athletes and MVP Voting

The discussion broadens to include comparisons with other sports figures, notably Patrick Mahomes, drawing parallels between Jokic’s influence on basketball and Mahomes’ on football.

Billy Corben draws an analogy: “**[26:27] Billy Corben: ...winners do the boring stuff over and over... Jokic does whatever it takes.””

Dan Le Batard reflects on MVP voting fatigue: “[24:38] Dan Le Batard: ...Jokic should get the MVP every year because those numbers, it’s just an insanity.”

The panel debates whether Jokic’s statistical dominance warrants continuous MVP honors or if the cultural and entertainment aspects associated with players like Jordan and Mahomes play a significant role in such accolades.

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Team Dynamics and Jokic’s Impact

A critical examination of Jokic’s influence on team performance follows, with Dan Le Batard questioning the dependency on Jokic for the Denver Nuggets' success: “[44:46] Dan Le Batard: ...I really do wonder if I put Jokic on any team in the league, am I getting to 50 wins?”

Billy Corben counters by affirming Jokic’s ability to elevate his teammates: “**[45:49] Billy Corben: ...Jokic makes everybody else better. Whoever like Cade Cunningham... they will absolutely be top of the East.””

This segment explores the interplay between individual excellence and team cohesion, pondering whether Jokic’s presence alone could transform any roster into a championship contender.

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Broader Implications and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the nature of greatness in sports, the value of statistical analysis versus subjective enjoyment, and the enduring legacy of players like Michael Jordan in contrast to emerging stars like Nikola Jokic.

Dan Le Batard encapsulates the dilemma: “[24:56] Dan Le Batard: It’s so interesting that so many people say that, because I disagree, because what I’m watching is so confusing to my mind...”

Andrew Hawkins reinforces the argument by highlighting the aesthetic differences: “[24:45] Andrew Hawkins: He’s so boring.”

The panel leaves listeners pondering the balance between numerical achievement and the intangible elements that make sports captivating.

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Notable Quotes

• Dan Le Batard: “If Jokic is saying right now, this is the best basketball I've ever played... Jokic should get the MVP every year because those numbers, it’s just an insanity.” [02:04]

• Andrew Hawkins: “You’re the most offensive thing in this conversation right now.” [03:30]

• Mike Ryan: “The league is dying on his watch. Like Michael Jordan rescued the NBA.” [05:35]

• Billy Corben: “Winners do the boring stuff over and over and Jokic does whatever it takes.” [26:27]

• Dan Le Batard: “You guys Are arguing myth fun and memories against facts.” [04:57]

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Conclusion

This episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz offers a compelling debate on what defines offensive greatness in basketball. By juxtaposing Nikola Jokic’s statistical excellence against Michael Jordan’s legendary status, the hosts and guests provide listeners with diverse perspectives on the evolving criteria for evaluating athletic prowess and legacy in sports.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Stugotz]

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[Greg Cody]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Shadow Show Shadow Show Shadow Show Shadow.

[Billy Corben]

Show Shadow Show Shadow Show Shadow Show.

[Dan Le Batard]

Shadowing it Shadowing it I'd like to discuss this with Andrew Hawkins because maybe he can give me some advice on my frustration. I don't know why it is that I have not been able to get a take off the ground, even though I have spent carefully the last couple of weeks trying to get a take off the ground and have worked. I'm gonna say 35 years. 35 years. Shaping takes and knowing how to get Them off the ground.

[Andrew Hawkins]

All right. I thought it was this particular take for 35 years. I'm gonna go, not this one.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not this one. But it covers about 30 worth of ground in my career where I'm. I know how to say things that will get attention. And I don't understand why me saying on various podcasts and carefully. Because I haven't gotten all out there and had the full take, but the take has been that Jokic is a better offensive basketball player than Michael Jordan.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Okay. Yeah. I'm shocked that that hasn't taken off the ground. Wow. That is.

[Dan Le Batard]

I also don't think it's shocking.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, I think it is shocking.

[Andrew Hawkins]

It's kind of shocking.

[Mike Ryan]

I think it's shocking because I think everybody would understand, like, more unguardable, even more dominant.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Mike Ryan]

But better offensive player. I feel like.

[Billy Corben]

Well, how do you define what's a better offense?

[Dan Le Batard]

How about because statistics.

[Billy Corben]

He doesn't take guys off the dribble and pull up on them like Michael Jordan does.

[Mike Ryan]

That's how I define it. How about.

[Dan Le Batard]

How about the facts? How about instead of your eyes and what you think and the mythology, how about just the numbers?

[Mike Ryan]

Okay, but you're going up against like, I mean, the greatest myth in sports.

[Andrew Hawkins]

And honestly, I mean, you're the most. You're the most offensive thing in this conversation right now.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, wow.

[Andrew Hawkins]

It's so. It goes you MJ and then Jokic.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah. You know, like, no one goes through the day and sees like, someone that's really good at flip cup and says, man, you're the Jokic of flip cup.

[Billy Corben]

Not yet. Not yet. But you've seen what he's doing. You talk about a mythological figure like he will be after he retires. Did you see how bored he looked after he hit that 66 footer last night? Just an absolute savant. And Michael Jordan was, you know, a savant as well, but I don't think he was this complete.

[Mike Ryan]

He needs five more titles. There's no way that body holds up for five more titles.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I'm trying to give context to, like, the take. And if you look at the stats. Okay, I give you that. You have to use your eyeballs as well, though, because also Wimby is probably going to take over. And Wimby is just not as fun because he's 8ft tall. Jokic has that going, too. It's not as fun when you have a clear physical advantage for what you're doing in the space that you're in.

[Dan Le Batard]

I just find it really funny that you guys Are arguing myth fun and memories against facts. Myth fun and memories against. Look at the offensive. Look at the rebounds. Look at the assists. Look at the efficiencies. Look at the scoring.

[Mike Ryan]

And let me be clear. I don't disagree with you. In my mind, the most unstoppable basketball player I've ever seen is Jokic. We're wrong. We're wrong. No one's copping the Jokic shoes. I get the IG ads all the time. No one goes to the gym and says, you know what? I'm gonna play like Jokic today. It's just not like he was a. Michael Jordan was a cultural phenomenon.

[Billy Corben]

I think he might be onto something, though, because I think people are going to pull a Jokic by just doing something amazing and looking absolutely bored about it. Like it's no big deal. I do this all the time, Izzy.

[Mike Ryan]

The league is dying on his watch. Like Michael Jordan rescued the NBA.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I feel like I'm in a twilight.

[Mike Ryan]

World and brought it. And brought it to unprecedented heights. You think Jokic is going to be in Space Jam?

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't think I've ever been in a room with five people who agree with this take. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry. Okay, Roy. My bad. Okay. Well, I don't like what I'm talking about.

[Mike Ryan]

You didn't speak.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I was taking your silence as alignment. I shouldn't have to say anything. Okay. That we're on the same page.

[Dan Le Batard]

Thank you.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't like what's happening here.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I'm just saying it sounds like a wild take. Also, you gotta look at the variables. The numbers may be better. Is the NBA the same? Do they play the same way?

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, that's. That's an important one. That is the rules.

[Andrew Hawkins]

The same one, you know, like, could Jokic do that?

[Billy Corben]

Don't tell me you're one of those guys that say Jordan would average 45 in today's game.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Because I'm not that. I'm not going to say Jordan would average 45, 44.6 ish, 12 rebounds and 12 assists.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, I like the idea that Hawk thinks that there's a physical thing you could do to Jokic that would stop him from scoring, that fouling him. The guy's arms are bleeding for the last five years. But. But Hawk has something that someone's going to do.

[Andrew Hawkins]

But unless you allow different.

[Dan Le Batard]

Unless you allow the other players to play with brooms. To hit him with brooms. I don't know what you're talking about in terms of something is going to stop that Physically, what I remember when Shaq was this. Some form of unstoppable this. And then you were like, how can anything be that strong? And then Yao Ming appeared and Shaq couldn't move. Yao Ming, what. What do you have doing anything to Jokic that slows him down? They are already fouling him.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't know. Put on the Belmont on one of the TVs.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Maybe two words for you, Bill Lambert. This is the Dan Levatar show with the St. Spotcast.

[Dan Le Batard]

Andrew Hawkins strolled in very casually and just seconds before we started. So I didn't get to ask him this off air. And I'll do so clumsily on it and risk the response. Would you like to or are you available Sunday? The reason that we have a skeletal crew today is because we're going to be working Sunday during the games. We're going to be live streaming. What are you going to be doing during the games on Sunday?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Watching them will be what I have planned.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right, so I'm inviting you if you'd like to spend time with us here. We like having you around. I'm inviting you now, and it can be a surprise. You don't have to commit to it.

[Billy Corben]

Are you going to come?

[Mike Ryan]

It didn't sound like you did, Dan.

[Billy Corben]

It did.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Well, it sounds like I'm being put the spot you guys to get in trouble for this. Like, if I asked my mother something in front of other people where she had to give an answer, I would. I knew it was hell to pay when I got home. So if I'm like, hey, Mom, Timmy said I can come over. Can I come? Or Timmy wants to come to our house. And she's like, the house isn't clean. There's no dinner. I didn't. I didn't go grocery. And she's like, yeah, she can come.

[Billy Corben]

I'll take it a step further.

[Andrew Hawkins]

That's.

[Billy Corben]

That's a relationship. Like, you're in trouble if you're like that. Happens to me all the time. Anthony's on the phone with somebody trying to make plans, and he's asking me on speakerphone. Knows damn well I don't want to go to this place. But is putting extra pressure. Do not ask me questions in public.

[Andrew Hawkins]

That it. That makes it. I do want to come. I do want to say that. But the fact that you asked me on spot that you would have got your ass whipped in my household.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, I wouldn't have asked you on the spot if your mother had taught you to be much earlier to work than you Were.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Dan Le Batard]

What? Wow.

[Mike Ryan]

You think you're helping your cause now?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Goodness. Goodness gracious. My Sunday just filled up. 1. I just forgot that I. I had a prior engagement that I need to get to. Number two, I showed video evidence that I was behind a car accident in more than enough time to get here. Also, traffic, one of the worst things Miami has to offer. I would love to make a list of best things and worst things that South Florida has to offer. Traffic might be number one. Let's do this.

[Dan Le Batard]

We can. We can actually do this. Let's put this together. Because these things. I don't know how long you've lived in South Florida, but these things have changed.

[Mike Ryan]

Well, I would love Hawk's perspective on it as a man that recently relocated to South Florida. So the new perspective is certainly one that I would welcome.

[Dan Le Batard]

The traffic. And I know this is empirical now. People will say that empirically. They will find you. The facts that suggest that Miami is worse on traffic now than Los Angeles is that it's globally bad on traffic because we are that overcrowded with people who want, you know, more freedom is what they're arguing. A whole lot of people. More freedom and more sunshine.

[Andrew Hawkins]

A lot of sunshine. Traffic is terrible. And as someone who moved from Los Angeles to South Florida, it feels worse than it did in Los Angeles. And maybe it's because you assume that the traffic is there in Los Angeles or there's still some version where you can predict the traffic in some way. Here it is completely unpredictable. Like, completely unpredictable. Like, it might take me, who with no traffic, I live probably 31 minutes from the studio. It might take me anywhere from an hour and 15 minutes to an hour and 55 minutes on any given morning.

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't think it's completely unpredictable. When the kids are back in school, the traffic is totally bad around rush hour from 3 to 7 and from 7 to 9am like, my number one thing.

[Andrew Hawkins]

My number one worst thing that South Florida has to offer right now is traffic.

[Billy Corben]

I can't get over the fact that he invoked your mom's name. Well, not name, but your mother in this. Like, how is his mother supposed to.

[Dan Le Batard]

Help him start traffic? He started with his mother. He said, first of all, he learned something in his very early years you still haven't Learned in your 40s and haven't. That you haven't taught the people around you to know, which is don't ask questions that I don't want to answer in public. He learned this when he's doing a bit right now.

[Mike Ryan]

What is this?

[Dan Le Batard]

What is the bit that I'm doing?

[Mike Ryan]

You're just going at people's charact.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Hey, I. I welcome it because my mom will also whip your ass, too. So that's the thing about it. She is not. It's not just a me thing.

[Dan Le Batard]

What kind of disciplinarian. What kind of disciplinarian was she?

[Andrew Hawkins]

She was. She was tough, man. She was tough. Cause it wasn't. She wouldn't really whip my ass. But she was a very tough mom because it was very important to her. She had a lot of kids, and she worked a lot. And so the Iron Fist needed to rule in moments where she wasn't around. So it was. She was very like, yo, I'm setting the boundaries. And if you cross the boundaries, there will be hell to pay. And so the idea of the hell to be paid, it did wonders. It kept it.

[Dan Le Batard]

But what was the hell to be paid if there wasn't there, if it wasn't physical? And all these years later, you're still talking about how it is you used.

[Mike Ryan]

To talk my man on the spot.

[Andrew Hawkins]

No, it's. So when you're parenting, there's like. I take my son, for example. He does not fear me at all. And it is the worst thing in the world. Not because for me, but it means that everybody else. Like, when he's at school, and it's like, oh, no. If I forget my badge, and it's like his world falls down, and I'm like, who gives a damn what they say to you at school? I do not care about. If I tell you it's okay. There's not a teacher, a principal, a coach, anything that can do anything to you. And it frustrates me because mine was the opposite. Because in my mind, my mom was like, yo, you don't. As long as she doesn't find out, we are completely okay. And because of that, I can operate in a world where I don't give a damn if the boss says, you need to learn to get here earlier. I come when I damn well please, Dan. That's clear, you know? And so because of that, it's allowed me to find myself in the world. And so that's what my mom was. She made. She was just very good. And I think it was just. She was in charge.

[Billy Corben]

Times have changed, man. People aren't afraid of authority anymore. When I was a kid, I'll just say it. My dad used to whoop my ass, like, belt at whatever tool he had used to whoop my ass. And even in Third grade, there was this teacher. I don't know if she's with us anymore. Probably not. Ms. Harrison, thank you for everything. Like, she would make troubled, like kids who got in trouble stand in the middle of the room holding two a book in each hand until their shoulders were on fire, crying. And then. And then if that didn't work, or if you. She would just take you to the restroom, drop your pants, give you a smack on the ass. This was a public school.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yeah, no, that's facts. We had community whoopings. Like, basically, it didn't. My parents didn't have to whoop me. It was okay for the neighbors to whoop me.

[Dan Le Batard]

Really?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oh, yeah. It was like, oh, he was misbehaving and so what? Yes. Like community twice. You got neighbors and then your parents.

[Dan Le Batard]

Beat you because his parents did not.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I think that was the thing is it was like, you know, everybody else who's who. My friends and stuff would also get there at. They would get their asses whipped and they would all talk about my mom, like, oh, yeah, you don't want it with her. And I think the fear of, like, well, if they look at you that way, I don't even want to know what you did to get that street cred. So I'm going to make sure I stay in line.

[Mike Ryan]

This episode probably should come with a trigger warning, but also, I went to a Baptist kindergarten, elementary school, Westwood. This wasn't that long ago. I had a principal, Ms. McCraney. She had a glass eye and toes that would curl up. For whatever reason, she still wore open toed shoes. And she had a paddle in her office that had holes in it so it was more aerodynamic so there wouldn't be wind resistance as she spanked your ass.

[Andrew Hawkins]

This is a triggering. He also went to school with that.

[Mike Ryan]

This was after Hurricane Andrew.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, many of us are old enough to remember when the nuns did it. That was something that was pretty popular. I think Izzy might get a $50 fine there. We need to do research on his third grade teacher and find out if indeed she is dead, because he just killed her. And if she's not, that's a $50 Venmo fine.

[Billy Corben]

Yeah, she looked pretty old in third grade. And that was a long time ago.

[Andrew Hawkins]

The Venmo fine bucket is presented by Venmo. By the way, we got a.

[Mike Ryan]

The total in the bucket is $49. Still seems low.

[Andrew Hawkins]

It does.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, Greg Cody is not paying. Oh, that.

[Mike Ryan]

I mean, Lucy killed somebody and that's a $50 fine.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes. Also minor penalty.

[Roy Bellamy]

Two minutes for not listening.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's a delayed penalty for Roy. I'm sorry. He said his mother did not hit him. He said that very clearly. And then you said he was getting community. Who after he said, I wouldn't get it at home, I'd get it from the neighbors.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Can I give. Can I give him a path? I think he read between the lines. I said, my mom didn't whip my ass, which is different than not getting hit. That's like, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's levels to.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's fine. He's gone and the penalty is delayed and he's got to leave.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Sorry.

[Dan Le Batard]

I tried to save you and I don't know, you're.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I tried to save him, but that's not.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're. You're just a coach on the field arguing a call. We have instant replay now. The ruling is final.

[Mike Ryan]

And we have the Venmo fine bucket, which is presented by Venmo.

[Dan Le Batard]

He also said that.

[Mike Ryan]

I know I was told to say it again.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right, who else would be presenting the Venmo fine bucket other than Venmo? I thought that was self explanatory.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't know. You see some of these pregame shows. You have the Dodge Ram pregame show presented by. Built by the Home Depot. They're all over the place.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right, well, can you guys please turn the penalty box? Turn the heat up in the penalty box. Can you please make. Make it a sauna. Can you make. Instead of, Instead of him just sitting coolly next to the ice, you know, refreshed and stuff. Let's make it a sauna and let's make him sweat a little bit.

[Billy Corben]

He's got to take clothes off for that, right? You don't want him sweating in his clothes.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, he should be in a towel. Yes, he. I mean, who goes. What do you wear in a sauna? What are the rest of you wearing?

[Billy Corben]

Nothing.

[Dan Le Batard]

In a sauna, you go totally nude. I will not do that.

[Billy Corben]

Last time I was there, I was in Europe, everybody was nude. It's a thing, okay?

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't do saunas.

[Mike Ryan]

I go fully clothed.

[Dan Le Batard]

Put it on the pole.

[Mike Ryan]

I've been hit on in my sauna before, and it's just like ever since then. Oh, what does that tattoo mean? It says Tropical Park. My guy.

[Billy Corben]

Do you wear the nipple pasties? Do you wear the nipple covers on there?

[Mike Ryan]

I take them off before they're. But I'm presently. Don't send me because I'm presently Wearing them under a thermal. So that'll tell you a little bit about my situation.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Okay, not happening.

[Dan Le Batard]

I will wear a collared shirt in a sauna. I am not doing nude in a sauna. Put it on the poll at Lebatard show. Are you doing nude in the sauna or are you doing a towel?

[Billy Corben]

I did. We were in this like very group sauna situation. We do like aromatherapy and stuff. And there's just a lot of people. And right outside the sauna, the walls are glass, is a cold plunge pool and a hot tub. Right. I like saunas. They're very helpful, health wise. But for some reason, this sauna was burning my nose after like 12 minutes, I had to get out of there. I got out of there and I went into the cold plunge pool completely naked. Came out of the cold plunge pool and everybody in the sauna was clearly facing my direction. And I'm just like, man, if I were less cold than this, I'd be worried about shrinkage and stuff. Nah, it's freezing. I'm getting into that hot dog.

[Dan Le Batard]

I just don't see the need to be nude in a community full of people. But you in locker rooms all your life. I remember in high school, my high school didn't have doors on the bathrooms on the stalls because they didn't want drugs. Yeah. Kids doing blow or whatever in the stalls.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Oh, man. By the way, good old Miami.

[Mike Ryan]

Appreciate the setup. Can we show Roy chilling there with the Nicholas Cage pillow in the sauna? Because we have a sponsor for this sauna. Enhance your physical and mental wellness routines with Redwood Outdoors. Take advantage of special Savings today. Visit redwoodoutdoors.com and use code DAN to save one 75 doll. Huge promo code.

[Dan Le Batard]

His hat looks like it is. It's been green screened and he is now presently taking off clothes. I don't know how nude he will be by the end of this segment.

[Greg Cody]

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[Stugotz]

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[Billy Corben]

That is every day.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Stugats this is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Dan Le Batard]

I do want to circle back around with something that I said on the Shadow show because whatever you think of my commentary, this is something we've talked about over the years a lot. Like so many sports arguments are. My brother and I, when we were very young, we used to. My mother tells this story. We would get into an argument fighting over a single hair, a single human hair and so many Sports arguments feel like we're arguing about the difference between something that is very comparable, whatever you think of Michael Jordan and Jokic, whatever you want that argument to be on who's the better offensive player, whatever the difference is, it ain't much like you can like high flying. You guys are making all these arguments. Cultural phenomenon, myth, fun. You're right about all of them. Michael Jordan is all these things. He'll be undefeated forever because our memories will not allow him to lose this argument. But if I put it in front of you, and Jokic is saying right now, this is the best basketball I've ever played. And the only reason he's not going to win MVPs is the same reason Michael Jordan didn't win them is because they were bored with voting for Michael Jordan. So they'd give one occasionally to Karl Malone. But Jokic should get the MVP every year because those numbers, like, it's just an insanity. It's Shaq shooting three pointers better than everybody.

[Billy Corben]

And it's not just that. It's. It's the elements of everybody else's game that you've seen these highlights of over the years. It's Magic Johnson. No look perfect over the head bounce passes, which you don't ever see. When we go back and we look at these highlights 20, 30 years from now, we're going to be more odd somehow than we are now. And I still argue I said this on the shadow show. Part of it is he's playing in Denver because if he was playing somewhere in Southern California, New York, Chicago, wherever else, you would probably speak highly more highly of him. Even more so, I think, as you said, in terms of the boredom of MVP voters, if they give this to Shea Gilgeous Alexander, which I believe the voters will do, and they have their sort of classic reasons as to why. I think it's one of the worst case, would be one of the worst case of voter fatigue for an MVP than I've ever seen.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't mind any of those arguments. And I patterned myself in NBA casual. Jokic is boring, man.

[Mike Ryan]

He's so boring. He just doesn't have it.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't care if he was, because in South Beach, Louisiana, any big market, it's just not an exciting watch.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's so interesting that so many people say that, because I disagree, because what I'm watching is so confusing to my mind, this kind of mastery with what I know. All around him are the athletes you prefer to watch all fast, twitch skying, flying dunks and everything else. I Prefer to watch those, too. But the mastery is so graceful that it strikes me as a juxtaposition that is aesthetically pleasing, that I've got this giant loaf of bread shaped like a cement mixer just rolling through the paint, but also can shoot threes better than anybody.

[Mike Ryan]

But also he's bored by it. If he himself is bored by it, how can I get drawn Entertainment? I'm not disagreeing with his style of play. His style of play is very aesthetically pleasing. You don't see a guy that big be that skilled. But he is boring.

[Billy Corben]

He's exploring. Because I was going to make this argument about winners in the NFL anyway, right? Winners do the boring stuff over and over and over again. The things that they know are going to win. And not everybody does that. Jokic does whatever it takes. He's so bored by it. He's like, oh, it's a double team. Okay, fine, here's it. It's just obvious. It comes to him so easily. And then the skill with all those shot. With all that shot making is incredible. And yeah, of course, he's playing the best basketball of his career, shooting 47% from three to make up for Russell Westbrook, who, you know, doesn't bring any floor spacing there. It's absolutely crazy. And I'm telling you, you will be more impressed by this 20 years from now than you are now.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't find the Chiefs boring, and this is probably going to drive some people crazy. Patrick Mahomes does not bore me. And Patrick Mahomes is probably a great comp for Jokic, because you tune in any game, you might see something that you've never seen before at that position. Patrick Mahomes is cool. He's a superstar. He's engaging. He draws the audience in. In ways that Jokic clearly doesn't. And also, Patrick Mahomes is always there in the end. Jokic, we've had this conversation about him for three years. He's won one title. He's gotta be there in the end.

[Billy Corben]

Well, that's another thing, I think, as opposed to sort of the thing we did to Peyton Manning, the things we did to Aaron Rodgers, hey, you need to win another one. I'm of the opinion that if Jokic doesn't win two or more championships, all of his teammates are going to live the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't do it for him, thinking of themselves as failures. Because how good do you have to be as the leader of this?

[Andrew Hawkins]

Which is crazy, because Jokic won't give.

[Mike Ryan]

A damn forever betting on race seven.

[Dan Le Batard]

I want to talk about his teammates in a second but I would argue Hawk that Patrick Mahomes and Kansas City this year have been boring. I don't like watching Patrick Mahomes, this version of him throwing for 177 yards, three 300 yard games. I do your grandfathering in whatever that excitement is. I don't like watching him throw for 117 of 177 yards to Travis Kelce.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah, but they've had a lot of one score games and every one score game they turn to Patrick Mahomes. Sometimes they turn to their defense and they make plays and you know Patrick Mahomes is going to do something on that final drive. He I understand this is the most boring incarnation, probably the most frustrating and the first time that I've really felt Chiefs fatigue. That guy's just special.

[Andrew Hawkins]

And they are boring and not because I don't think they play boring. I don't think you would be any more excited about Patrick mahomes throwing for 250 plus every game. It's boring because okay, you're the best. We get it. We got it years ago.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, I don't think it's droning the way Pete Sampras is. I'm looking at it. I'm like your receivers stink.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Think like not true though.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean their receivers have the best.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Tight end in NFL history.

[Dan Le Batard]

Their tight end is there. The tight end is great. Their receivers are not like those. Those are all below average receivers. All of them.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I don't think they're below average statistically they have to agree with that. Right now they have guys healthy. I think right now they're I think last year the receivers were and that was like the exciting part of like how are you going to figure this one out? Mahomes and he did. I think they're a step up this year. They've battled injuries but I don't think they're that pedestrian. They're 15 and 1 and we never talk about them.

[Billy Corben]

That's what I'm saying about Homes is.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Going for three Pete and we never talk about it.

[Mike Ryan]

I like how the Broncos last season.

[Dan Le Batard]

Don't count it. Don't even. It wasn't even played.

[Mike Ryan]

Were these real exciting Worthy super exciting historically Hopkins and Hollywood Brown who is now healthy. Right. Like were these very exciting receivers worthy's fast.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Look at that.

[Mike Ryan]

That's exciting. Hollywood Brown is fast.

[Dan Le Batard]

Go look at his numbers. His production is a below average.

[Mike Ryan]

The way that they use him is fun. Pacheco is Fun to watch because of his running cell that very few people in the can replicate.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like maybe I'm spoiled from seeing what their offense has been under Mahomes like.

[Andrew Hawkins]

This when he was a rookie on a rookie deal and they could pay everybody. When you make 500 million, you gotta win with people who aren't a level talent. And the fact that he still can. Yeah, it looks boring. It looked boring with Tom Brady doing the same thing. I'm saying that they're good receivers, but it's going to look like that when you have a guy that's eating up your salary cap the way he is and the fact that he's still able to do it is what makes him great.

[Billy Corben]

But we're arguing or you're arguing. Jokic is doing the equivalent of three yard dump offs every time and he's not. He's doing what you say Patrick Mahomes does. Figures out everything the defense throws at him and sometimes it's spectacular.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I didn't make the comp to Patrick Mahomes. I think you did. I did or you did. But I'm saying I. Patrick Mahomes were bored by his greatness. I'm saying I bored watching Jokic because there is no flair. Because he's not super quick twitch because he's not out athleticing. Like he's doing things that people ask his size. We haven't seen. But when you watch it, it is not exciting. The way that we've been taught to be excited about people playing basketball. That's why Michael Jordan has that kind of thing over him is because we had never seen somebody move like that on a basketball court.

[Billy Corben]

By Larry.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Also boring. I'm sorry. These white people mad at you? I'm 38.

[Mike Ryan]

I don't remember him.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I didn't grow up watching Larry Bird. When I watch him athletically, it does not strike me he was cocky though.

[Billy Corben]

I think it's a Le Batard siren.

[Mike Ryan]

Mahomes draws you in because of his passion for the game too. And there is none from Jokic. Like Mahomes got the cool hair.

[Andrew Hawkins]

He wants to go and Jokic is a. Like he's an incredible basketball player. It's just not exciting to watch.

[Dan Le Batard]

I. I just. I detect a slight bias here.

[Andrew Hawkins]

No bias.

[Mike Ryan]

Who can argue that Jokic is like fun.

[Dan Le Batard]

Hold on. I'm. I'm going to argue it and I will continue to argue it because when I see things that don't have a precedent.

[Mike Ryan]

But he's not having fun.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay. He doesn't get to decide what's fun for me. He gets to decide what's.

[Mike Ryan]

I guess there are comics that deadpan.

[Andrew Hawkins]

And my opinion on what I. Carl Anthony Towns. I'm good. I don't like to watch Carl Anthony Towns.

[Dan Le Batard]

I think you just threw that in there because I saw your bias and you decided to go Dominican.

[Andrew Hawkins]

You asked me two players.

[Dan Le Batard]

I didn't bring up Larry Bird. You volunteered that Larry Bird was boring.

[Andrew Hawkins]

We have video evidence. You just said this. Why would I bring up Larry Bird? You know how far down on my total poll like I'm to get to basketball players? You think Larry Bird. You think I'm going to go from YIC to Larry Bird?

[Dan Le Batard]

I know why you bro up Larry Bir, but I got an inkling. I got. Got a clue why you brought him up, man.

[Andrew Hawkins]

You're bringing up the sharks. Not me, man.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's.

[Andrew Hawkins]

You're the one bringing up the great whites that. I didn't bring those up.

[Dan Le Batard]

I brought up one great white. Then you brought up another great white. And you say both of the great whites are dull.

[Billy Corben]

All right, I brought him up. Technically, I go to the challenge. He's the one who said he was boring, though.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Put them on. I'd like to throw a challenge back and replay the. Replay the clip of who brought up Larry Bird.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay. You're asking the video team to get something there that they might not be able to get quickly. All right, hold on. They're going to. Look, I understand that you're spoiled and you get. You're used to just showing up at a TV place and getting whatever you want. This is not the world leader.

[Andrew Hawkins]

The clip now, please.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay. They're looking for it, I promise you. And I see you slinking away. So Larry Bird is boring now.

[Andrew Hawkins]

He's a boring athlete to me, yes. He does not move in a way where I'm like, oh, shoot, can you.

[Dan Le Batard]

Guys just get me? Because I'd like to do some measurements on this. Hawk obviously knows a great deal more football than I do, certainly knows a million times more about how to be a receiver than I do. But when the Chiefs receivers numbers are put in front of me, all I see is below average numbers. That's all I see. So you're telling me that they're not below average receivers, but they're. Production says they're below, I think, says that they're below average receivers. All of them went, go get me DeAndre Hopkins. And Mike is right. Hollywood Brown is supposed to make a difference, but I don't trust him at all. Yeah, he's fast. They got. They got speed but they don't play like an offense that has speed. They play like a defense that has.

[Mike Ryan]

You want nine routes for Patrick Mahomes? No, I want you nine routes.

[Dan Le Batard]

I want more than 200 yards a game from one of the best quarterbacks I've ever seen.

[Mike Ryan]

Well, one 60 yard reception and a receiver that's capable of giving you. That adds to the extent.

[Dan Le Batard]

Give me all their 60 yard receptions this year and I will tell you why it is. They're not exciting. I don't believe they're big. They're not a big play offense anymore.

[Mike Ryan]

But that was a draw to get Hollywood Brown like come here, prove it year and increase your value. And then he had the medical issue.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I am talking about. The receiving unit as it stands now is an above average unit to me for what their roles are. You're not going to have a single person who is okay, this is a number one receiver. He has 1200 yards. He's whatever. You have Travis Kelce, you have DeAndre Hopkins, Hollywood Brown and Xavier Worthy. To me that is an above average core because you have a young gadget guy who can stretch the field. He's one of the fastest in the league. You have Hollywood Brown who plays the slot and allows Xavier Worthy to be in his true position. DeAndre Hopkins is just as good as a possession receiver as he's been in that role. And you have Travis Kelsey who is the best tight end in the league.

[Dan Le Batard]

You don't think I can form the argument I'm taking Kelsey out of the equation but you don't think I can form the argument that that's the worst group of receivers left in the playoffs of all of the teams I like.

[Mike Ryan]

I like, I like the receivers too.

[Andrew Hawkins]

And I like them over commander. So no, I don't think you can make the argument that they're at worst they're three, they're likely number two.

[Mike Ryan]

I would love to give that receiving core to Josh Allen and I'm the biggest Khalil Shakir guy that there possibly is and also he's on the ir but Rasheed Rice is also a part of that unit. They got talent now last year fair and we and Rasheed Rice hadn't come online but they've got some talent around them and now they're all getting healthy with the exception of Rashee Rice. Is that still a thing by the way? When he first got hurt they were like he could if they make a deep run.

[Billy Corben]

Can't I make the argument though that they are they have specific skills. Not, as Dan is saying, not complete wide receivers, not great wide receivers where their amazing quarterbacks are taking advantage of those specific skills. And so I'm with Dan here, like Xavier Worthy, he's fast. Yes. He's not a complete receiver yet. I will take advantage of what he can do because I'm, you know, that offense and I'm Patrick Mahomes. Same thing with Josh Allen. I don't need a stud wide receiver. I can buy enough time out there to just let anybody get open and make that person, you know, get a bunch of yards. It's, it's the quarterbacks taking advantage of those guys.

[Andrew Hawkins]

No, yes, yes. He, he, you have the quarterback who can make the most out of their ability. But even when you are drafted in the position that these guys are drafted in, like you're drafted there because you have a certain amount of tangibles that other people don't have. Right? The Xavier worthies, the Hollywood Browns, obviously DeAndre Hopkins is who he is as well as Travis Kelsey. That speaks for itself. But they are drafted in positions to say, okay, this guy is above the rest tan in his tangibles and everything else that have happens throughout the situation. What quarterback you have, what organization will determine where you go from there? Just that fact alone that you're sitting there with two first rounders that were drafted, what, in the last four to five, six years or whatever. Like they have an ability above most other receivers.

[Dan Le Batard]

Fair enough, but not unlike the argument you guys are making with Michael Jordan when you say tangibles. To me the most tangible is what's the production? Not where were you drafted, not how high was your jump at the combine. Now how fast you are because I know their receivers are fast. Yeah, Worthy's fast. I don't know who'd win a race between Worthy and Hollywood Brown, but they're two of the fastest receivers in the league and the production doesn't indicate that. Hollywood Brown has a ton of drops. Now we should put him off to the side because we haven't even gotten to see what he would look like in Kansas City. But when he had an MVP for his quarterback, he was fine. He's a deep threat. Nobody. He's a limited receiver. Like he's a one. One dimensional.

[Mike Ryan]

Yeah. His one dimension is I'll catch a 40 yard bomb.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's correct. Look up for me, please. Just look up for me. Offenses, big plays and give me, however, give me. Does Kansas City have as many touchdown as long as Saquon Barkley does this year? You tell me like do they have the five or the six 60 yard.

[Mike Ryan]

Touchdowns been explosive but their explosive guys have been hurt. Although Xavier Worthy, the first round receiver, that is.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Teams are built different. Though Dan and I and I disagree on the Hollywood Brown thing. I think, I think receivers need to be, be like receiving cores need to be right sized. There are very few receivers who are number ones, true number ones to me that can just line up and win. And when I think of a number one receiver, I think of a guy who just go up there and say, hey, it's third and six. We have to throw a slant for a first down. Everybody knows you're getting it. It's one on one. Can that guy stop you? Or a go ball. And in contested situations, in 50, 50 or whatever, more times than not, you win. Like A.J. brown to me, me number one receiver, you cannot guard him one on one, clear disadvantage. You will not win. It does not matter who is throwing the football. More times than not, he's going to win. Hollywood Brown, being in the Baltimore Ravens as a number one, he was never a true number one to me. And there's a lot of receivers we can go down in. George Pickens is not a number one receiver to me. He's a number two. Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

Buffalo doesn't have a number one, but I mean I like Shakir.

[Andrew Hawkins]

They're very similar to the receiving corp. For the Kansas City.

[Dan Le Batard]

Philadelphia's got a number one. You can make an argument that Philadelphia is pretty close to having two numbers, two number ones. And, and I, you know, I really like McLaren. I think he's better than anyone Kansas City has as a receiver. Anyone.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Y.

[Dan Le Batard]

And, and now they're, they. You're looking at a Kansas City team. You're arguing on behalf of them being, you know, one of the better receiving cores left. And they don't have a number one. And the other teams seem to have a number one.

[Mike Ryan]

Mahomes had a 54 yard touchdown pass to Xavier Worthy in week four against the Chargers. It was their longest pass completion on a scoring play since 2022.

[Billy Corben]

Aren't we making the same argument for different positions? Right. What I'm saying is a great quarterback will make a, you know, a system receiver into being pretty good, right? Into being a good productive receiver. And you're saying a good receiver, A.J. brown can make a quarterback better like Jalen hurts. Because we see Jalen hurts, doesn't have the skill set as these other quarterbacks.

[Andrew Hawkins]

I. What I'm saying is I don't gauge how good a receiving core is based on how good your top guy is is like, I don't most teams that win the super bowl don't have solidified number ones for a reason because a number one should receiver should be the guy that's open. So when you look at the receiving cor. Josh Allen has, there's a reason why they are better this year than they were with Steph Diggs a year ago. Because he is not feeling forced or pressured into throwing to a guy. Because I have to get you touches, I have to get you the ball in this situation. And also you hear the Amari Cooper interview from this week where he's like, I'm fine with my role. He's had like eight receptions in the last five weeks because it doesn't matter. If we need it, we'll get to it. Matt Collins is not a guy that we should should be a household name the way that he is. Josh Allen is not only elevated, he's playing his role within the receiving corps the right way.

[Dan Le Batard]

But you're giving, you're extending to Worthy and Brown something that you're not extending and Hopkins to Amari Cooper. When you make your assessment of the Buffalo receiving core, you're making Hopkins something that I don't think he still is. If you Right now, who do I want right now, Hopkins or Cooper? Please give me Cooper. I want, I, I, I want that.

[Andrew Hawkins]

When they traded for Cooper, I said it was the most impactful receiver trade of all. All of them. Devonte Adams as well as DeAndre Hopkins for the same reasons you said. What they needed in their role as a receiving corp that they did not have was a true route runner who can beat man coverage. When that comes up, he has now the ability to get open. The first time the Bills played the Raven Ravens, none of those guys could get open because they could. They, they are not true route runners. They're not separators. They're not one on one. Let me create separation for my quarterback. The last time they played the Chiefs, Amari Cooper is the one with the balls down the field because he's running the routes to get open. He's also getting the go balls. And so when I'm talking about Amari Cooper versus DeAndre Hopkins, I'm not talking about Hopkins is the same DeAndre Hopkins that he's been at his height. I'm saying for what he's going to be asked to do with the Kansas City chief, he can still operate that at a high level because he's the possession guy.

[Dan Le Batard]

Let me get from you guys some commentary on this because you've heard me talking about for years, I have a hard time separating when you have team sports, who's responsible for whose success in everything that we're talking about. I have always thought since this run started that the Denver Nuggets starting five is five players. As strong a five as you can get. But when I dive into the numbers, they're terrible when Jokic isn't on the floor, they're unprecedented offensively when he is. And I really do wonder about what I'm about to say. So Cade Cunningham. I thought Izzy had more doubt about Cade Cunningham than there should be. He is the lead player on a 500 team and just recently he had two consecutive games with double digit turnovers, which is something that's happened in the sport before. But he by himself has a team overachieving that is, that is decent. But he's their clear number one usage rate player and because of that he's going to be in the All Star because they're a 500 team. I wonder if I just put Jokic on the Pistons, whether they too would have the record that the Nuggets have. If I put Jokic on any team in the league, it makes me wonder, well, how good is that starting five really in Devner? Because Aaron Gordon wasn't this when he couldn't just dunk everything in Orlando, he became a very good fourth player, championship worthy fourth player when all of a sudden all he's getting is all these lobs at the rim. How good actually are Jokic's teammates?

[Billy Corben]

I mean if you think about Aaron Gordon, what he was supposed to be in Orlando like you mentioned and what he sort of settled into as effectively in my opinion, the best role player in the league.

[Stugotz]

League.

[Billy Corben]

That's, that's almost a gift, right? You're getting a guy who is wants, is supposed to be a star and it's like no, no, it's almost like Amari Cooper. I'm okay playing this role. And so he's an elite role player, right. The other guys that won a championship with. Anyway, KCP is an elite defender in the perimeter and a really good shooter. So it was almost a great perfect fit around Jokic. But I think what we're seeing now is that yeah, he can adjust to who, whatever teammates he has. He and Russell Westbrook are making magic out there sometimes. And so yes, if you put him on the Detroit Pistons, as long as there's some level balance there, it's not just a bunch of Jalen Durans around him, then they Will absolutely be top of the East.

[Dan Le Batard]

The reason I asked the question is because Michael Jordan wasn't win 50, 60 games every year until he got a top 50 player by his side. He was somebody who would get to the playoffs and then end up losing to people who had better number twos and number threes, even though he was the one scoring 63 and boring. Larry Bird was calling Michael Jordan God in the locker room after Jordan had lost in a playoff game. I really am. I really do wonder if I put Joe, if I put Jokic on any team in the league, am I getting to 50 wins?

[Billy Corben]

I think absolutely. And I think that's part of the gift, that's part of the brilliance of Jokic is he makes everybody else better. Whoever like Cade Cunningham, I like him. He's, you know, last year with bad teammates and a worst coach was not doing very well. That's where I formed that opinion on him. This year looks a lot better. Still has a bunch of turnover, turnovers. But he is not elevating everybody. Right. There's actually just better players around him, Tobias Harris and whatnot. But I think with. Absolutely. With Nicola Jokic, he would make everybody around him better. And that's just something that is, you know, you can't really measure.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So Jalen Duran, Cade Cunningham and Tobias Harris. Okay, I'm googling who they play for.

[Dan Le Batard]

Put it, put it on the poll, please. At Lebatard. At Lebatard show are the Pistons. Cade Cunningham, Tobias Harris and whatnot.

[Mike Ryan]

Daniel. I'm 39 years old. The only memories that I have of Michael Jordan are when he was winning. I don't remember the roadblocks. I needed the documentary to fill in those gaps. When he was losing to the Pistons, was Michael Jordan certifiably consensus the best player in the league?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes. Just a ball hog. Just viewed as a ball hog because he wasn't winning.

[Billy Corben]

I mean, he changed the whole way people thought of the NBA. They thought, you have to win with a big guy. Now you have to win with. With this. Now you can win with a guard. But I'm with Mike here, like when he was losing to the Pistons, there was still that conversation of, oh, yeah, he doesn't pass the ball. He can't be the best player in the league. Right.

[Dan Le Batard]

Total ball hog. That's what, that's what Michael Jordan got. He was getting crushed at every turn. And then he started winning all of the championships. But that's how it happened. We treated him really badly, but it was before social media and so he couldn't win even though Laimbeer. There was a play where Laimbeer cut his leg with a machine.

[Andrew Hawkins]

When did it turn? When, when did they start looking at Michael Jordan as the greatest? Like what year? When it was like, oh, he's the best.

[Billy Corben]

I think it was the first three peat. Like the first three peat where they're just like, wow, this is incredible. I don't think anybody's done this before and it's a small guard doing it. Best player ever.

[Andrew Hawkins]

So 94. Do you realize I was 7?

[Dan Le Batard]

How absurd it is to say the sentence the first three peat?

[Stugotz]

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[Mike Ryan]

Hey Jeremy.

[Andrew Hawkins]

Yes, Mike?

[Mike Ryan]

Have you ever had a fireside conversation during a football Sunday during the winter?

[Stugotz]

Sure, we don't have a lot of fireplaces down here, but I've had like the Premises.

[Mike Ryan]

I wish I could, but it's South Florida. When it gets down to the 60s, we're like we're bundled up but certainly no fireplaces. Still too warm for that. But we do have our football Sundays. And one thing that always makes football Sundays good. And I know you've had plenty of experience in your life with this Miller Time. Oh yeah, Miller Lite makes the winter better. It makes football Sundays better. It makes even hanging out around you better.

[Stugotz]

Thanks Mike, that was kind.

[Mike Ryan]

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