Local Hour: The Clown Shows

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode: Local Hour: The Clown Shows
Date: October 24, 2025
Location: Elser Hotel, Downtown Miami

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Episode Overview

This "Local Hour" episode—taped at the Elser Hotel—dives deep into recent Miami Dolphins disappointment, NBA betting scandals, and the peculiar intersection of sports, personalities, and clownish chaos. The regular crew (Dan Le Batard, Stugotz, Amin Elhassan, Chris Cody, Pablo Torre) brings their signature irreverence and baggage of South Florida sports heartbreak, laughing through stories of institutional failure, media narratives, and breaking news around Terry Rozier and Chauncey Billups. The show is fast, dense, and emotionally honest, with the hosts jumping from musical bits and family jokes to the underbelly of professional sports corruption.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. The Clown Show of Managing Personalities and Topics (01:11–03:47)

• Dan Le Batard vents about trying to corral the Meadowlark sports/friend group into relevant conversation.

  • Dan wants to talk about Aaron Gordon’s big NBA night, but Mike Ryan is obsessed with hockey, and Tony has to ask what a hat trick even is.
  • Amin Elhassan offers advice: "To lead is to manipulate them, to trick them." (03:47)

• Stugotz boasts about NBA bets by referencing Siakam’s over/under and Curry’s highlights — showing the panel’s wandering focus.

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II. Nostalgia, Humor, and the Greg Cody “Backjack” Running Gag (05:51–07:49)

• Dan and Stugotz joke about musically themed show opens featuring Chris Cody’s dad, Greg.

  • Dan likens wheeling out Greg’s singing career to forcing Ozzy Osbourne and Axl Rose onto stage in their twilight.
  • "He ages five years every time we bring something back, Jack." – Stugotz (06:11)

• Morbid hilarity about Greg’s mortality and the plan for the first Greg Cody show after his death.

  • "He’s been coughing for 10 years. He’s been warning us as a siren, an alarm on mortality for 10 years, and now we’re just wheeling him around." – Dan (07:49)

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III. Dolphins Meltdown: The Worst Era Yet (07:49–23:25)

A. Tyreek Hill’s Podcast and Dolphins’ PR Issues (07:49–10:17)

• Dan is stunned at the “sheer lunacy” of the Dolphins’ public voice situation—three players are now de facto media spokesmen, none suited for it.

  • "Tyreek Hill had a popular podcast... Kansas City did not let him talk because it is unwise to have at microphones someone who’s likely to get in trouble or say the wrong thing when he speaks." (09:09)

• Dan reflects on the new low: Dolphins are unique in making fans wish their key figures would be silent.

B. Fan Disillusionment & Decades of Failure (13:15–23:25)

• Dan shares personal stories of growing up a Dolphins fan, including his father forging the undefeated team's signatures.

  • “All those signatures looked like my dad’s ... the signatures identical and simply the names of the players.” (14:19)

• Comparison to other failed franchises (Lions, Bills, Jets), but the Dolphins’ collapse is generational.

• Bitterness and humor about constant regime changes and wasted draft picks.

  • "Chris Greer went through $1 billion, 21 first and second round picks. ... All that rains down on you in the end is a mountain of shit from a fighter pilot ... They should have the poop emoji on their helmets." – Dan (17:37)
  • "Have you ever seen this ... 20 years you’ve been failing, you’re the laughingstock of the league." – Dan (15:00)

• Amin’s punchline: "Are the Dolphins the Knicks of the NFL?" (18:47)

• Dan’s agreement: "Yes." (18:55)

• **Stugotz and Amin riff on Tua Tagovailoa as ‘Jeremy Lin’ or even ‘bubble T.J. Warren’—players whose success was short-lived and maybe overhyped by fleeting circumstances. (19:35–20:36).

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IV. The Dolphins' Enduring Dysfunction and Miami’s Pain (20:36–25:49)

• Reflection about organizational rot: Pittsburgh’s steadiness vs. Miami’s churn post-Marino.**

  • "It’s one of the most amazing stats in sports – three coaches ever on the Pittsburgh Steelers." – Dan (21:06)

• The cyclical hope-and-collapse of Dolphins’ recent history.

  • Stugotz: "In the 21st century, you have a regime takeover... you get excited at one point and then you have to rebuild." (25:02)

• Amin: "That’s why Dan thinks this is the worst. Because the expectation was built because there’s hope ... the Delta. You were above the water this much. Now you’re below the water this much." (25:32)

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V. NBA Betting & Match-Fixing Scandal: Rozier, Billups, and the FBI (31:47–46:20)

A. Terry Rozier Betting Investigation Developments (31:47–34:42)

• Brian Windhorst explains the timeline and sportsbook vigilance:

  • NBA and sportsbooks caught a wave of big under bets on Terry Rozier; Rozier was abruptly benched for the season not for injury, but because of the scandal.
  • "The sportsbooks caught the irregular, irregular betting on Terry Rozier the day it happened ... they caught it." – Windhorst (31:47)

• Amin clarifies: The NBA never officially 'cleared' Rozier—it hit an investigative wall because it lacks FBI-level powers, but never truly exonerated him.

  • "They just reached a roadblock in the investigation where they couldn’t investigate anymore." – Amin (32:47)

• Criticism of NBA communications:

  • Stugotz: "The league didn’t feel compelled to come out and say that’s not the case." (33:34)
  • Chris Cody notes the “bullshit spin” from the league; Stugotz calls it a “circus.” (34:08)

B. Mechanical Failure of Sports Leagues to Police Themselves (34:42–36:01)

• Dan: Pro leagues are unprepared to handle criminal-level gambling issues; investigators have little real power; it’s an unprecedented ‘wild west’.
• Amin and Pablo are reporting on this evolving story for "Pablo Torre Finds Out."

C. The Chauncey Billups Mafia Poker Game Allegation (36:33–45:46)

• Matt Berkey (successful poker pro, on ‘Only Friends’ podcast) claims insiders have known for years about a fixed Billups-centric poker game, stacked against professional players.

  • "Only the pros are losing." – Matt Berkey (38:17)

• Context: The FBI indictment uses ‘face card’ as an allegory for Billups’ celebrity attracting marks to a rigged game.

• The group discusses the blurred lines between coaching to lose (tanking) and active match-fixing.

  • Amin: "To my mind, there’s a difference between Johntay Porter ... faking an injury ... versus the head coach of an NBA team saying 'we're tanking'." (43:49)

• Pablo Torre reads from the DOJ indictment, describing the circumstantial evidence around ‘co-conspirator 8’ believed to match Chauncey Billups’ career and location. (42:02–42:49)

• But everyone is careful not to leap to conclusions on guilt.

  • Pablo: "We don’t put the baby cart before the horse." (46:20)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On alpha management:
  "To lead is to manipulate them, to trick them." — Amin Elhassan (03:47)

• On Dolphins futility:
  "Chris Greer went through $1 billion, 21 first and second round picks ... and all that rains down on you in the end is a mountain of shit from a fighter pilot ... They should have the poop emoji on their helmets." — Dan Le Batard (17:37)

• On the betrayal of hope:
  "When you deliver hope, it’s the intoxicant, man ... The Marlins have made money off of indifference for 25 years ... but the Dolphins gave you hope." — Dan (25:49)

• On Rozier’s non-exoneration:
  "They never cleared Terry Rozier ... The NBA also didn’t clear him either. They just reached a roadblock in the investigation." — Amin (32:47)

• On the NBA’s lack of transparency:
  "We hit a roadblock. We didn’t want to announce the roadblock. We just let everybody else think that we cleared him." — Stugotz (34:08)

• On Billups poker game:
  "Only the pros are losing." — Matt Berkey (38:17)

• On the NBA and FBI, both at sea:
  "FBI clown show, NBA also clown show—don’t know how to do any of this." — Dan (35:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:11–03:47] Leadership, manipulation, and sports talk chaos
• [05:51–07:49] Greg Cody musical bits and aging/life jokes
• [07:49–15:00] Dolphins PR debacles & fan bitterness
• [17:21–25:49] Organizational rot & cyclical despair
• [31:47–34:42] Details of the Terry Rozier betting investigation
• [36:33–39:50] Chauncey Billups and the rigged poker game
• [42:02–42:49] DOJ indictment details, speculation about “co-conspirator 8”
• [43:49–46:20] Match-fixing discussions and careful reporting

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Tone and Style

• Playfully bleak, honest, and irreverent: The hosts blend Miami sports frustration, insider knowledge, and sharp observational humor. Even as the stories get heavy—betting conspiracies, lifetime franchise letdowns—they keep things moving fast and never lose their comedic edge.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode is a signature "Local Hour": brutally honest about broken sports franchises, skeptical of power and leagues, and eager to dive into both the latest news and evergreen nostalgia. Fans of the Dolphins, South Florida, or sport’s underbelly will find catharsis, sharp analysis, and plenty of laughs. Amin and Pablo’s ongoing Rozier/Billups coverage hints at more to come, especially for those who want to understand how deep this betting/match-fixing mess might go.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

Limu Imu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Stugotz]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Chris Cody]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty, Liberty.

[Dan Le Batard]

Liberty.

[Chris Cody]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Shadow Show.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Shadow Show.

[Dan Le Batard]

Shadow Show.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Shadow Show.

[Dan Le Batard]

Shadow Show. Shadow Show. Shadow Show.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Shadow Show.

[Dan Le Batard]

Shadow Show. Shadow Show. Shadow Show. Shadow in it. Shadowing it. I mean, I need, as an advisor, friend, you know, professional front office leader person. I need your help here in getting through some of the thicket of what it is managing these people is because I have a problem with today's show. And you're holding Meadowlark on your shoulders, flying back and forth to New York, doing real journalism, covering real things. As you know, the FBI is calling Pablo before they call other people. And what I have happening here is I come in with genuine sports enthusiasm, sure. Wanting to talk about what Aaron Gordon did last night. And Mike won't look up from his phone because he's like, marchand almost had a hat trick last night. And Tony's like, you're gonna have to explain what that means to me. And so Tony badly wants to talk about what Aaron Gordon did last night as, like, the fourth story in basketball last night. And Mike wants to talk about the champion Panthers. And you know how Mike can be.

[Amin Elhassan]

I do. I'm familiar.

[Dan Le Batard]

And. And so what do I do?

[Amin Elhassan]

But in his defense, Mike's a basketball guy again. He's back.

[Dan Le Batard]

Did you not hear the story I just told you?

[Matt Berkey]

I watched.

[Stugotz]

No, I watched one of the games last night. You're asking a lot for that late game. Steph Curry.

[Dan Le Batard]

Vintage.

[Stugotz]

Why back the clock?

[Dan Le Batard]

I saw it.

[Stugotz]

10 of 11. That's very impressive. I said Steph Curry. No, no, I saw the. Talking about the game. I saw. I. I watched the finals rematch. I was on the Siakam over On points. Cash for daddy.

[Dan Le Batard]

See, he's back. He's back.

[Pablo Torre]

You know who Aaron Gordon tied with 10 three pointers for the most in a season opener in NBA history. They gave the stat out on inside the NBA.

[Chris Cody]

Gotta be a Heat player.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, is it a Heat player? It must be.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, let's 2020.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, wait, that's right.

[Stugotz]

This is great. I think it's Tyler Hero, isn't it?

[Amin Elhassan]

No, no, no.

[Pablo Torre]

Getting close.

[Stugotz]

Getting warmer.

[Amin Elhassan]

He's someone in Detroit now.

[Dan Le Batard]

No.

[Amin Elhassan]

And not Duncan Robinson. No.

[Stugotz]

I mean, I don't know where they're gonna send him.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, Terry Rozier. Wow.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, your judgment continues to be terrible. Cause you say Mike's back in and I just told you the story of me and Tony are saying, did you see what Aaron Gordon did last night? And Mike's like, Marshawn almost had a hat trick, never looked up from his phone.

[Stugotz]

Wait, I gotta.

[Amin Elhassan]

Let me tell you something. Your judgment is terrible because I told you Mike's a basketball guy. And then you know what broke out after that? A basketball conversation that Mike was intending.

[Dan Le Batard]

So to lead is to manipulate them, to trick them. Yes.

[Amin Elhassan]

You know who's the president of the United.

[Stugotz]

Yes.

[Amin Elhassan]

This is exactly how you lead.

[Stugotz]

I have thoughts. This is the Dan Levator show with the Stugats podcast.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Basketball, basketball, basketball Basketball is back Jack, time for our favorite winter sport. The summertime is over so let's head down to the court Time for the ch ball Give me fast breaks on the attack Will you shoot a three or take it to the wreck? Basketball is backjacked It's a dream shake down in the post or a killer cross you love the most.

[Brian Windhorst]

When the.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Offense tries to run and gun Is it man to man or boxing world? It's big plays and talking smack that's how you know that Basketball and back. Jack.

[Dan Le Batard]

Let me hear you say basketball, basketball, basketball.

[Unknown Singer (Shadow Show)]

Basketball is Mack Jacks 360 dunks and pick and rolls and we're gonna watch it every day till they raise the Larry. Oh. Hard piles and hook shots A dagger three and hack a shack. If you say this game's the best, I'll say zag. Basketball is backjacked. Basketball is backjacked Basketball is back, Basketball is back.

[Dan Le Batard]

I really can't. I can't begin to tell you guys how happy those opens make me because of how happy your father is of us trafficking on the last embers of his singing career by wheeling him around the way they did Ozzy Osbourne at the end. And I think everyone's no, it's.

[Stugotz]

It's absolutely right, guys. Just, like, watch the first one. Listen to the quality of his voice. He ages 5 years. Every time we bring something back, Jack.

[Dan Le Batard]

He put it on the poll at Lebatard show. Does Greg Cody Age 5 years? Every time we bring something back, Jack, because we're now wheeling him around like Ozzy Osbourne. That's not up for dispute. I saw Axl Rose do this, and it made me sad. Guns N Roses, I think. Did they open the Sphere? No, but they opened a place in Vegas and they wheeled out Axl Rose. Yeah, because he couldn't walk. I think he was coming off some sort of leg injury. But he was in a throne. But it was still a wheelchair that just moved around the stage as a throne.

[Stugotz]

Dave Grohl then later used the same exact throne after he fell off the stage and still played rock and roll, man.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stugotz]

You think your dad would be down the is such that if he were on his legitimate deathbed, he'd do a backjack for us?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Stugotz]

Like, I found my religion again. My religion is backjack.

[Chris Cody]

He's already talked about me and Yeti doing the first Greg Cody show after he passes because of all the downloads it would get.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, you should do it the way he wants you to do it. Make sure that you're producing that show now. He's left it in very poor hands when it comes to things four months from now.

[Amin Elhassan]

Damn.

[Dan Le Batard]

Look, he's got a bigger job here that he's got to take care of. His dad runs him around as if he's still an intern like his dad. His dad thinks that Chris works for him, and I don't think he's paying him very much. Like, whatever he's paying him is not what we're paying him around here to concentrate on a bigger job.

[Amin Elhassan]

I didn't say damn about Chris is a Dev. Greg Cody dying four months from now, apparently.

[Stugotz]

Have you not seen the aging process? With every backjack he's. He's got like, two more before he turns the dust.

[Chris Cody]

Let's space these out then.

[Dan Le Batard]

He's been coughing for 10 years. He's been warning us as a siren, an alarm on mortality for 10 years, and now we're just wheeling him around. I want to get to a story here that should be internationally giant. We shouldn't skip past over Lionel Messi signing the extension that ends his career here. Ostensibly, it's. It's sheer lunacy that that's happening. That shouldn't and can't happen quietly. Even it's. Even if it's behind a paywall, the University of Miami shouldn't be playing games quietly. The Dolphins need to be more quiet because Tyree Kill is now. No, I'm not even kidding you. Tyree Kill is now. Talk on behalf of the Dolphins and the Dolphins. Never mind. In this market. The Dolphins are the first team I've seen in my lifetime that when a season implodes like this, the fan base turns around and says of all three of their lead voices, please shut up. Please stop talking. You're making everything much worse than it already is when the standings are plenty bad.

[Chris Cody]

And the clips I've heard of Tyree Kill, it's just kind of like nonsense where he's actually the least of our problems at this exact moment. Like it's actually McDaniel and Tua are worse. Which the last few years Tyreek's been the leader there. He's still. You don't want to hear Tyreek, but he's now like, he's backseat to his driving.

[Dan Le Batard]

I cannot tell you how absurd it is for me. Okay. At no point covering the Dolphins in my lifetime have I ever had the following set of details to present to you guys. Tyreek Hill had a popular podcast. Realized that's pretty hard. Said silly things. Talked more here as a star than he ever did in Kansas City. Kansas City did not let him talk because it is unwise to have at microphones someone who's likely to get in trouble or say the wrong thing when he speaks. I do not want to call Tyree Kill dumb. You will not hear me do that to athletes very often. They can do a singular thing so well that it requires great intellect to do it. And I'm not expecting my wide receivers to be able to read Tolstoy. But there's a reason the Chiefs did not let this person talk. As a voice. As a. As a voice for your team. You have to be careful. The Dolphins now have three people. One of them is on the sentence. I didn't think I was going to be saying he's on the podcast of Tehran Armstead. I did not know he had a podcast. He no longer plays for the Dolphins. They can use him. He's the only lineman they've had in 20 years who could block for them. Rarely speaks in public. Was a famously bad interview. They could use a player like that.

[Chris Cody]

Don't forget about Paul.

[Dan Le Batard]

Paul Guy.

[Chris Cody]

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[Stugotz]

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[Chris Cody]

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[Stugotz]

Time offer Don lebatard, you're getting started on the breakfast flan.

[Amin Elhassan]

Oh man. I've been singing a song to myself all morning long. Breakfast Flan stewgats. Have you never heard the Breakfast Flan song? No.

[Stugotz]

Hit me with it.

[Amin Elhassan]

Okay. I wish I had some breakfast flan. Breakfast fun. Where can I find a breakfast like that?

[Dan Le Batard]

This is the Dan Levatar show with the Stugach.

[Chris Cody]

They're fine at left tackle.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, you're right. Forgive me. Paul is fine. That guy then got.

[Stugotz]

Paul is a blindside though. Again. You need a right tackle. That makes sense.

[Chris Cody]

If we had Armstead, maybe Paul could be on the right.

[Amin Elhassan]

Is Paul his first name or his last name?

[Stugotz]

It's. That's right.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's the joke I mean. And we're gonna need you to keep up no matter how much you're flying back and forth. Minor penalty, two minutes delay a show. If you've been here yesterday, if you've been here following the show, you would know what that Paul joke is. You can't ask us to repeat a joke for you cause you're too busy carrying Meadowlark in New York.

[Amin Elhassan]

What's the point?

[Dan Le Batard]

You're just going to accept the penalty.

[Stugotz]

Oh, one off me, Coach.

[Amin Elhassan]

I could Explain what? The joke I was doing.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, it's a layered joke.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yes.

[Dan Le Batard]

So the penalty should be on me. You're the one.

[Stugotz]

Okay, we can all go into the penalty box. Meaning you can carry us.

[Amin Elhassan]

It's all right.

[Dan Le Batard]

I was hoping that we were going to lapse into a bit where you guys are saying it's the right guard, not the left guard. Well, no, because I think the right quarterback is about to leave. He's done left, like, I don't know. We could have done a whole bit there on who the blindside is for the next quarterback, because you got three Dolphins no one wants to hear from. It's fairly amazing. I mean, they were 9 and 2 recently at the end of a season, like. And no, it's not just losing. It's. I don't want to hear from these people. All of you just shut up. Do not speak on behalf of this team. You're making nothing better. Close it down. Censor the media. Make it Cuba.

[Stugotz]

Yeah. No. I hearken back to the days that I was a Browns fan. I was afraid anytime I would see a headline that says OBJ says or OBJ's dad, it's just because it's, you know, it's not going to help. It won't help. So anytime Tyreek Hill will speak, it won't help. Tua will never help. Mike McDaniel will never inspire confidence. With every loss and media availability, you're just more and more sure you need to fumigate the place and start over.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's crazy though, right? Because I've said that I really don't have precedent in this market. It's not prisoner of the moment. It's just someone who's lived in this town caring about this team. I've told you guys the stories. My father sent me to school in fourth grade. I had all of the signatures on one sheet of paper of all the undefeated 1972 Dolphins. All of the signatures looked like my dad's. Every one of those Dolphins that I went to school with, showing the other kids about my favorite team that I had on a piece of paper were the 1972 dolphins. All of them signatures forged by my father. All of the signatures identical and simply the names of the players.

[Stugotz]

That's a good dad. That's a good dad.

[Dan Le Batard]

So my allegiance.

[Stugotz]

Are you gonna do cross reference with the Internet? He got your ass.

[Dan Le Batard]

My allegiance to this team begins with my first memory with my father walking through an Orange bowl to a Dolphins game. And I just remember the feeling of my small hand in his and it felt like Disney World because I'm a. Our life is very small, just with more urine with bad urinal cakes. And it just felt like I love sports instantaneously. It's this team, this team. And in my life watching it, I've never seen this where you dared to hope. 20 years you've been failing. You're the laughingstock of the league. The Lions are no longer that. The Bills are no longer that. You're the only for the Jets. Are people not laughing at you more? But the jets only have Woody Johnson going in front of the microphone and saying the things that he shouldn't say. Maybe Aaron Glenn. I'm sure jets fans are tired of hearing of him. He said a couple of weeks ago, I'm not making a quarterback change. What's the matter with you? The owner forces him to make a quarterback change because when you're led poorly, this is what it looks like. It looks like what the patriots are now two years of down. This is 20 years. Bills won 17 years without a win. Dolphins are going on this damn century. I've never seen this. It's the worst it's ever been going on a century.

[Stugotz]

Well, they're a quarter of the way there, to be honest.

[Dan Le Batard]

The last time they won a playoff game, it was not televised locally. It was 2001. It was Lamar Smith. It is a generation ago, almost two. It's almost two generations of failed leadership.

[Stugotz]

So long ago, people were huddled around a radio.

[Dan Le Batard]

We have seen failure in this market. It's never looked like this. Where you look around after daring to believe again. Well, they got the number one offense in the league. It feels like Marino again to everyone's gone. Get everyone out of here. What do they have to trade? I see on trade deadline shows Jalen Phillips might be a valuable piece. They've got nothing to build around either. There's like no hope here. When you say fumigate, kill everything. Put an extermination tent like a termite tent over the facility. Wipe it out. Fresh coat of paint. Get everyone out of here. Start over and hope you got a couple of Terry Rosiers that give you salary cap relief.

[Amin Elhassan]

Damn.

[Dan Le Batard]

Damn, Dan.

[Stugotz]

And that concludes Dolphins talk.

[Amin Elhassan]

Oh, geez.

[Stugotz]

We can't add to that.

[Amin Elhassan]

I stepped out for two minutes and.

[Stugotz]

Killed the whole franchise. They're going to go another 75 years without winning a playoff game.

[Amin Elhassan]

They kill everything and hope you have.

[Dan Le Batard]

A couple of Terry Rosiers. Look, you guys can make fun of me this century in the tick of it. It. It's crazy. To say in a league that legislates equality 25 years. Nothing. Nothing to show for it. Can't block anybody. Don't have it on. Offensive lineman except for Paul. 20 years of draft picks. Chris Greer went through $1 billion. 21 first and second round picks. Like, that's you throwing up lottery tickets. And all that rains down on you in the end is a mountain of shit from a fighter pilot. AI, the president of the United States has put over protesters tremendous remainder. So they should have the poop emoji on their helmets. It's never been this like Cam Cameron one in 15. It's never.

[Stugotz]

That was pretty bad. And you never wanted to hear Cam Cameron talk. You want to talk about someone not inspiring confidence, it's not. For a franchise that has done this so often, you guys are pretty hyperbolic. It's been really bad around this with nothing to build around, no building blocks.

[Chris Cody]

But it got us. It got good a couple of years ago, and we thought we had gotten away from that fact.

[Stugotz]

If anything, these guys represent the best of the different regimes of this dolphin century.

[Amin Elhassan]

Guys are the Dolphins, the Knicks of the NFL. Like, you guys are still holding on to some that happened.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes.

[Amin Elhassan]

In the 70s. And like, there's this birthright of oh, and then you were good for a little bit. And you're getting your hopes up now. Like, we got to do this. And now it's like reality is sinking.

[Dan Le Batard]

These three people gave us reason to hope, the three of them. We thought McDaniel knew more than others. We saw that Tyreek Hill is faster than others, and we saw that combination could score 18 times with Raheem Mostert with it with a disposable running back. If you gave. If you gave Mike McDaniel Tyreek Hill, you'd make to the best passer in the league statistically.

[Stugotz]

Playing the Bills close with Skyler Thompson is essentially firing off the confetti from Madison square Gardens bleachers to celebrate. We got gentlemen swept.

[Amin Elhassan]

Is. Is Tua the Jeremy Lynn of the NFL?

[Dan Le Batard]

That's pretty good.

[Amin Elhassan]

Got a coach that, like, put him in a system that really fit him.

[Dan Le Batard]

And everyone's like, oh, he's pretty good. I mean, that's a pretty good comp when you think of the. All of it. Right?

[Chris Cody]

Tua's an idiot, though.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, okay, don't do that.

[Chris Cody]

Jeremy Lin went to Harvard.

[Dan Le Batard]

This is Alabama's the Harvard.

[Stugotz]

Tua sounds very, very smart.

[Dan Le Batard]

The only thing I don't want to do to these people is call them idiots when we've been Saying far different things.

[Chris Cody]

A little heavy handed by me.

[Amin Elhassan]

Displaying the behavior of an idiot.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, okay, let's do this if you guys want to do it. Because I want to get to the story that Amin is immersed in because Terry Rozier locally has found himself. We're now getting the dirty innards and the details that I think the audience is going to find interesting that advances this story beyond yesterday.

[Amin Elhassan]

Also, Tua and Jeremy Lin, both culturally appropriated, having their hair braided, things to ponder.

[Stugotz]

I think he's T.J. warren. Put that in the file. Tua might be bubble. T.J. warren.

[Amin Elhassan]

Oh, wow. So you're shortening the window of like.

[Chris Cody]

Everything'S gotta be perfect.

[Stugotz]

But he's throwing Knicks.

[Dan Le Batard]

See, the Knicks were still good, though. 90 to 2000. The days I'm talking about are before. Like the before. That's the damn Marino day. It's the end of Marino. Correct. It's 96. It's 97. It's Marino's career. This is the starting point. When you think of good organizations and look at what Pittsburgh has. It's one of the most amazing stats in sports. 3 coaches ever. 3 coaches ever on the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[Amin Elhassan]

And they all have one.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, Don Schulich. Jimmy Johnson goes out, loses 62 to 7. It's the end of Marino. And then Jimmy Johnson retires. Would have been the last time it felt like this, where it's like, oh, my God, they're so far behind. And now everything gets swept out. We don't have a quarterback.

[Stugotz]

I want to look up the line for that Jags Dolphins game because everyone was on the Dolphins. I remember thinking, that's like the most wrong I've ever been about a game. Jimmy Johnson felt like this was gonna be Marino's last run.

[Dan Le Batard]

Jimmy Johnson won a road playoff game at Seattle. And that's the last time there was real hope around here.

[Stugotz]

Marino looked good in it.

[Amin Elhassan]

Marino, the Patrick Ewing of the NFL.

[Stugotz]

That's right. The Seahawks used to be in the afc. That's how long ago this was. That's what I was gonna ask. You had the furthest teams that could.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ever be playing in the Tony. When I say a generation hasn't seen the Dolphins be anything but shit. Your earliest memories of the Dolphins, with them being shit. You've never known them to be good in your entire lifetime. They have not won anything.

[Chris Cody]

The Seahawks were in the afc.

[Stugotz]

How young are you? We're not that different in age. Yeah. No. They played it at the Kingdome. It was on carpet.

[Amin Elhassan]

The brewers in the al.

[Stugotz]

You guys Know that Astros are in the nl.

[Dan Le Batard]

I may be conflating time periods.

[Stugotz]

No, no, that's exactly how it happened.

[Dan Le Batard]

We believed in Jimmy Johnson because he threw Flutie Flakes on the floor and stepped on them after beating Fluty. And then Jimmie Johnson wins at Seattle. They come back, they lose to Jacksonville. Jimmy's heart wasn't in it. Like, he was done. And so they had to start totally over. But that's the last time the Dolphins were any good. They then complained afterward, Wonstadt took over because Jimmy said so, and they kept going. 10, 6. And then it all fell apart this way on Wonstadt because he didn't have a quarterback. We thought that the combination of Hill and McDaniel would make Tua good forever, like for his career. We were willing for him to risk brain injury. We wanted him so badly to make sure that they were 9 and 2 and led the league in passing. And because they dared to hope like that, they're now really furious with the team and its management and say all of this is long overdue. They should have done it last offseason. They should have never. Like everybody's going back and doing revisionist history on. They never should have given these people anything. As if they didn't have us hoping deeply. Eighteen games ago, we went to Las Vegas because we thought the Dolphins were going to be in the super bowl our whole show.

[Amin Elhassan]

No, that was kind of ridiculous in hindsight.

[Stugotz]

Now we think about it, we're like.

[Dan Le Batard]

Huh, that wasn't that long ago.

[Amin Elhassan]

Is Cam Cameron's full name Cameron Cameron?

[Dan Le Batard]

Put it on the poll at Lebitard show. Is Cam Cameron's full name Cameron Cameron.

[Stugotz]

We need that thumb to go this direction.

[Amin Elhassan]

It's Malcolm.

[Stugotz]

Yes, Malcolm.

[Amin Elhassan]

Mal. Cam Cameron.

[Stugotz]

Get all the way out of here.

[Dan Le Batard]

Are you sure? I don't think that's right, Roy.

[Stugotz]

Yeah, we talked about this.

[Chris Cody]

I don't doubt Roy. Don't doubt Roy on stuff.

[Stugotz]

No, no, he's right.

[Dan Le Batard]

I just looked it up.

[Stugotz]

Welcome. Cameron shouldn't have been calm Cameron.

[Amin Elhassan]

Calm Cameron.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, put it on the poll. Shouldn't it have been calm Cameron? It's a hell of a question. We talked about this. Roy is an amazing library you have in your head. I've done Doritos nine straight years according to Chris Cody.

[Stugotz]

You have.

[Chris Cody]

Actually.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's how. That's how long you've been eating them, Roy.

[Chris Cody]

Once a year. You're like, what do you guys prefer?

[Stugotz]

I think I've been eating Doritos for just nine years.

[Dan Le Batard]

I think you've been eating Just Doritos for nine years.

[Amin Elhassan]

Do we have white Malcolm's anymore?

[Stugotz]

That's the first one I can even think of. I didn't. I'm just learning about this, hearing this for the first time.

[Amin Elhassan]

The closest thing I can Remember, Mike, is Dr. Ian Malcolm. But that's the last name.

[Chris Cody]

Malcolm in the middle.

[Stugotz]

There you go.

[Dan Le Batard]

Put it on the poll at LeBatard show. Did you know that Cam Cameron's first name was Malcolm? I believe that's going to be shocking to people. Even though, as Roy said, we did talk about it 11 years ago. We need a thumb to go this direction. That was pretty bad that time period. We could do some nostalgia on the worst the Dolphins have ever been. If you think I'm being hyperbolic, this.

[Stugotz]

Is in terms of success, you can maybe say Parcells, because they did host a playoff game and Chad Pennington had that year. But there were two playoff appearances from this regime. There have been. This is the life cycle of the Miami Dolphins. In the 21st century, you have a regime takeover. It putters around for about four to five years. You get excited at one point and then you have to rebuild. And I think this Dolphin regime is probably arguably the most successful.

[Amin Elhassan]

And that's why Dan thinks this is the worst. Because the expectation was built because there's hope. For the first time, it's not just, hey, we're pretty good, we're winning games. It's like, shit, we have the best offense. And because of that expectation, where we are now, it's the Delta. You were above the water this much. Now you're below the water this much.

[Dan Le Batard]

You trust these bad franchises at your own risk. And when you deliver hope, it's the intoxicant, man. The Marlins have made money. What little they make off of indifference for 25 years, they created hope. We had been pretty hopeless.

[Stugotz]

I'm sorry. I mean, I'm rewatching the highlights right now, so that's why I didn't say that you were about to talk. I'm rewatching the highlights of that 2000 playoff game at the Kingdome. Dan Marino, the last moment that we Want to remember. 95 Yard Comeback Drive to seal that game. They held Ricky Waters to 2.1 yards per carry.

[Amin Elhassan]

Nice, Mike. I don't know if you remember this conversation we had. It was years ago. The Browns job was open and the packers job was open, I believe. And I remember telling you, you take the packers job, you're like, what? The Browns are young and you got Miles Garrett and you've got Great young quarterback Baker Mayfeld said no, it's not because of the talent. It's because the organization. The organization has proven they'll never do anything right. As opposed to the packers where it's like aging quarterback and all that. But I know they have some sort of sense about them. And that's what reminds me of what Dan is saying right now about the Dolphins. It's like it's the organization, man.

[Stugotz]

And the Browns hired Freddy Kitchens with that window.

[Dan Le Batard]

Do you guys understand, though, the very simple emotion in fans that are loudest and angriest today at the expense of the Dolph, that they wouldn't bother to be introspective enough to say, of course I'm lashing these people because they told me that you were a smarter coach than the others, that it doesn't matter who the linemen are. Most dirt will have 18 touchdowns. And then you proved it. They told me you could fix the quarterback. And you were so delighted to have speed because Hill and Waddle were going to be everyone's fantasies players. You told us that. You made us believe it. We hoped and then you showed us, oh, you are smart. You are, with all of the pieces working perfectly together and everything at the perfect timing, the most accurate quarterback you've ever seen can lead the league in passing. And then Rex Ryan says, nerd boy, get out of my league. We're going to grind you to dust with our fake teeth.

[Stugotz]

But that was always the issue, right? His game was finesse. And at some point the war of attrition in the NFL, finesse does not play well.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, this, this is a funny point you make because I do want to talk about what I saw last night in terms of Justin Herbert and Carson went. And when you talk about finesse and how the wheels come off the backup quarterback because you're getting him hit too much. He's on six teams in six years because that used to be a young man that was mvp. That guy was the highest paid person in quarterbacking at one point. And we've watched what you've done to his body. It's awful. And no one gets hit more than Herbert. No one in the league like they are. They are crushing Herbert and he is being very good under very difficult circumstance.

[Stugotz]

Have you ever seen someone more off to be injured than Carson Wentz? I was slack jawed watching his reactions. That was uncharacteristic to say the least. That guy is so stoic.

[Dan Le Batard]

He wants to be out. He wants to be out there so badly and he wants to save the Vikings and get them to meaningful games and their future. He cares deeply again. Six teams in six years. It's eaten up his body. He's super old now, by the way.

[Stugotz]

Keep an eye on it, okay?

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't know if we've said this.

[Stugotz]

On the show before. Kevin OConnell's hiding J.J. mcCarthy. He's hiding him. Did you see him jump over? Did you see him jump over? When the player went to the sideline, he jumped over the guy. His ankle's fine. They're hiding him well. He's starting next week, I think.

[Amin Elhassan]

Better be Introducing Oakley Meta Vanguard, the new performance AI glasses designed for athletes.

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Amin Elhassan]

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[Dan Le Batard]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com upgrade your laundry.

[Stugotz]

Routine with a durable and reliable Maytag.

[Dan Le Batard]

Laundry pair at Lowes. Like the new Maytag washer and dryer.

[Stugotz]

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[Dan Le Batard]

To cut through serious dirt and grime. And what's great is this laundry pair is in stock and ready for delivery when you need it the most.

[Stugotz]

Don't miss out.

[Dan Le Batard]

Shop Maytag in store or online today at Lowe's. Don LeBatard Minohassen Stugatz the Amino Acid this is the Don Levatar show with Stugato. I want to talk about this game because what's happening at the quarterback position is funny. But I want to get to the story with Amin and with Terry Rozier locally because we have new information and more information coming out. Brian Windhorst was talking about how the league caught this, how specific it was in, you know, pulling Rozier because they worked with the companies to get maximum information in a way that will show you how some of this stuff unspools and where and how it is the NBA could or would or wouldn't cover things up in order to keep some of this bad stuff from being seen by the public. Here's Brian Windhorst telling you that basically the NBA felt like it was out ahead of the FBI.

[Brian Windhorst]

The sportsbooks caught the irregular, irregular betting on Terry Rozier the day it happened, the morning it happened, when all of a sudden there was hundreds of thousands of dollars coming in on Terry Rozier under for a relatively meaningless game in November, I'm sorry, in, in, in March involving the Charlotte Hornets. The sportsbooks caught it. They told the NBA right away and guess what? The NBA. Rozier didn't play the rest of the season and he had faked the injury. So it wasn't because of the injury. The NBA pulled him. They pulled John Tay Porter too. The sportsbooks protection measure, it's triggered this. They caught it. The issue I think is, you know, Johntae Porter. They caught, caught, convicted and tossed him out of the league within weeks. Rozier didn't. And in this investigation, and I don't know if Terry Rozier is guilty, the NBA obviously didn't feel that he was. They wouldn't have let him play. But this indictment implies that there was a swath of conspirators. There was like his cousin, his cousin's friend, I mean all the way down to like low level guys who won money on this bet.

[Amin Elhassan]

Spoke to league sources yesterday and one of the things they want to clarify that they never cleared Terry Rozier. That was something that Sham Charania remember back in July said he's been cleared and it was like, well no, first of all, the federal government definitely didn't clear him. But the NBA also didn't clear him either. They just reached a roadblock in the investigation where they couldn't investigate anymore. They don't have the tools available to the FBI and the federal government. Government in terms of wiretaps and stuff like that. So they just had to say, well for now we don't have anything. So. But they never closed it and they never left it alone.

[Stugotz]

It's kind of pathetic. So like we're back on like well then that was a bad report by Shams.

[Amin Elhassan]

I mean it was. So why does no one bats a thousand?

[Stugotz]

Yeah, but the NBA could have said something. They let this be so they let the narrative persist with their lead insider saying that they had cleared him when in actuality they hadn't. But they let that persist that the league didn't feel compelled to come out and say that's not the case.

[Pablo Torre]

An extra detail that Barry Jackson reported yesterday after this video of one horse was A league spokesman tells me just now that the NBA did not bench Rozier late that season and he missed the rest of the season because of what Rozier says was a foot injury.

[Stugotz]

Kind of bullshit spin. Is that from the NBA? Honestly, like what?

[Amin Elhassan]

What?

[Stugotz]

We hit a roadblock. We didn't want to announce the roadblock. We just let everybody else think that we cleared him. And so he got arrested in Orlando because he was a part of the active roster of the Miami Heat. Because the NBA, very quietly, super cute, they hit a roadblock and didn't tell anybody about it, and now they want to come back and say, no, no, no, we didn't clear them.

[Dan Le Batard]

We're not.

[Stugotz]

We're not a circus.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, you are.

[Stugotz]

Your answer for that is even more of a circus.

[Amin Elhassan]

This isn't the basketball Mike that I know. Hold on.

[Stugotz]

A roadblock. Wait. We cannot let them get away with this.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, let's examine all of it, because it's where I meant to start and I got distracted by Dolphins talk, as will always happen to me in the emotional places. But Amin and Pablo are doing work, and this is a thicket of investigation. And what we've learned, at least in the case of what's been reported so far on Pablo Torre finds out about Kawhi Leonard is it is possible that the NBA can go full clown show on some stuff that they don't have any precedent for dealing with with. Like what happens when you go to Terry Rozier and whoever his coconspirators are and you're like, we're the NBA here to investigate. Yeah. What power do you have over me telling you anything? I don't. You're not the federal government, pretty much. So like you, you realize as we do that they're going to make the rules up as they go along. This is a new wild, wild west. When you welcome some of this stuff into the neighborhood. I don't know what happened with Terry Rozier, but Amin and Pablo can be closer to the truth based on the reporting they've been doing that makes Amin fly back and forth from here to New York. So please, please catch us up with what you know, what's coming out on Pablo Torre finds out and where it is that it is possible that we can then again reveal. Yeah, look. FBI clown show, NBA also clown show don't know how to do any of this. They've got a rogue player who doesn't have to live by your rules. Federal government. Yeah, he don't care. Hornets. Ha. Hornets. I'm not.

[Stugotz]

What?

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm here to cash my paychecks in Charlotte. Everyone knows I'm playing in the basement to get my 20 million mill. Like, I'm one of the star players in Charlotte. And the heater wanting. Pushed up, like, by this hurricane that's around. Push that up to Charlotte.

[Amin Elhassan]

Don't.

[Dan Le Batard]

Don't bring any of that rosier stink over here. Arresting him to start our season in Orlando. Who.

[Stugotz]

Who was the person in charge of making sure that was a Hornet's hoodie at the arraignment?

[Amin Elhassan]

That's. That's savvy. Whoever said, hey, put this one on. That's savvy. It's like, when did it happen? When I was with the Hornets. All right, all right, here you go.

[Dan Le Batard]

I mean, walk us through the interesting details here, because there's also this dirty underbelly in the other story. This is Billups in a poker game. And we couldn't have talked about this enough yesterday. Look, this part, like, wait a minute. What hall of Famer and coach in bed with the mafia and the big families? Like, okay, so what does he owe them? Like, that's. That's a question that just mushroom clouds in the sky yesterday on an NBA coach. And we're getting caught in the thicket of some of the details here, because I'm telling you, the reporting is going to trail the feds. But Amin and Pablo are doing some reporting, recording that is in the dirty places here where we can show you where this clown show will unravel. But in the underworld of poker, wherever it is that Chauncey Billups allegedly may have thought he was getting over on the underworld, they know how to play poker. It's not. They're not starstruck by playing with Chauncey Billups. If a game is rigged, they will know it. And so I don't know. Chris, who is Matt Berkey? Is he a very famous poker player?

[Chris Cody]

Yes. One of the most successful poker players in the world.

[Dan Le Batard]

And what is the podcast he's on when he is saying, yeah, everyone knew that the Chauncey Billups were rigged. This. Knew it years ago. Knew it in 2018, 2019.

[Chris Cody]

This podcast was recorded in 2023. He's referring to five years earlier in this clip that came out in 2023. It's the only Friends podcast where he's talking about Billups was this game.

[Matt Berkey]

It started in LA and then it came to Vegas for a few days. And it was all built around Chauncey Billups. And I heard. I had heard about the game game. And the person who told me about it was like, look, I know the game runners. I'm telling you 100% this game is on the up and up. And I was like, well, I know a lot of the people that are involved, and I'm telling you 100% that it is not on the up and up.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah.

[Matt Berkey]

And, you know, we kind of went back and forth, and I agreed that, like, I just wasn't gonna go play it, but I, I had some friends who went and played it both in LA and in Vegas, and it obviously, like, was for sure confirmed to be cheated. Like, people who clearly didn't even understand the rules of no Limit hold' em are just, like, jamming hundreds of big blinds in with, like, a gutty and then just drilling it. Only the pros are losing.

[Dan Le Batard]

Like, that's not even well matched. Okay. If you know, and I'm not gonna be a sophisticate when it comes to the poker world, but they know where the inefficiencies are. And a pro would spot a rigged room very fast, like, within a couple of plays.

[Chris Cody]

A gut shot, straight draw, a hundred big blinds is just like, that's the, like, if I was at that game, I would just be like, that guy's cheating.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's the most.

[Chris Cody]

So blatant.

[Dan Le Batard]

What he just explained is sort of the most amateur. Wouldn't even take a pro to recognize. Wait a minute. That never happens. You clearly knew the cards that were coming. You know the rules. Like, you don't know. You don't know the rules. Wait a minute. This is not, not so. This is the most amateur feeling.

[Chris Cody]

That's like Austin Powers. I like to live dangerously.

[Dan Le Batard]

Can you. So now we make the crime families what we make them. But all this was, is basically, hey, we've got some people, they just want to be around Chauncey Billups. They want to say they played poker with Chauncey Billups. And you know what it's going to cost for an evening of poker with Chauncey Billups? $200,000, allegedly. I'm totally making up that number. But this sounds real amateur, and I'm sure Amin has facts that are less amateur than.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yeah, I, I, I think first and foremost is the idea that they called him a face card in the grand jury indictment, which is basically what you said. He plays in a game, the marks come to play with him, and then the game is rigged. And whether he gets compensated or not, I don't know. But the, the, and, and I'm, I'm trying to be careful if I sound cautious, because I don't want.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, you should be. Look, I'm being All right, so look you know, some. Let me. Let me be less flippant about this, okay? Because I know it involves the Mafia, the FBI. And no matter how much those departments may have been diminished over the last few years of whatever the mythology of this is, this sounds like the dumbest version of this. That is the most easily caught the way that I've seen the details presented. But you have more details than I do. And I don't think Chauncey Billups to be a fool. But what the FBI said yesterday in totally disgracing a Hall of Fame player and current coach who makes a lot of money to be a current coach coach, they are saying that he was stealing money from people.

[Amin Elhassan]

So when you read through the grandeur indictments, first of all, there's two things going on. Number one is they lumped a bunch of names together because I think the layperson, the lay sports fan is like, Charles was fixing NBA games. Like, no, no, no, no. There's different names involved in different alleged crimes. And those alleged crimes, the biggest name of all the defendants is Chauncey Billups. So if I'm trying to present, if I want to put on my Mark Ruffalo FBI task force jacket and get on TV and act tough and act like we're cracking down on this massive thing, obviously I want the biggest name there because if I tell people, hey, Terry Rozier may have thrown a game, people, again, the average layperson's like, who the F is Terry Rozier?

[Dan Le Batard]

Just more macro.

[Amin Elhassan]

Right?

[Stugotz]

Can we clean one thing up, though? Because I understand that Chauncey Billups wasn't named in this, but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggests he might be coconspirator number eight. Right, Jeremy? Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo pointed this out on Twitter yesterday after reading through the DOJ indictments. And the allegations here are really interesting because it says Co Conspirator 8, an individual whose identity is known to the grand jury was a resident of Oregon. He was a NBA player from approximately 1997 through 2014 and an NBA coach since at least 2021. On or about March 24, 2023, the Portland Trail Blazers played the Chicago Bulls. Prior to the game, the Blazers record was 32:40, and the team was out of playoff contention, blah, blah, blah. Prior to the game, co conspirator 8 told the defendant, Eric Earnest, that the Blazers were going to be terrified, intentionally losing to increase their odds of getting a better draft pick. And ultimately, their four highest scorers did not play that day.

[Stugotz]

So if you had to guess, who that might be. Even without. Even if Chauncey Billups wasn't involved in this story initially, you'd be like, man, Chauncey Billups is in trouble.

[Dan Le Batard]

So let's not be reckless about this and just frame it all on. This is moving with moving details and I believe it to be purposeful that Billups and Rosie are your names and they're your big names. As the FBI puts on a show of we'll show you who's in charge. The NBA doesn't run anything. We're going to make a show of look at the, look at what we're going to do. Smoke out scandal and shame because it's a mushroom cloud and we know everyone will eat it up. Pablo and Amin and others are doing diligent work and I will urge you, Pablo Torre finds out over the next soon dropping Will there be a Pablo soon? Like I'm assuming that I've got, I'm getting off the phone with you guys and you know, you're making high level calls on things. So I don't. Please be careful but give people as much information as you can.

[Amin Elhassan]

Yes, to answer the question, yes, there is an episode of Pablo Torre finds out that's coming out. There's going to be a follow up, a follow up of what we did in July, by the way, where we first talked about not only Terry Rozier and JohnTae Porter, Malik Beasley, but also some of the names named in this grand jury indictment were characters that we did deep dives on. For instance, Amar Awade, who was not only a guy who participated in these games, but according to the the grand jury indictment also was involved in collecting some debt on behalf of people who lost at these games and didn't pay up. And so July's episode of Palpatory finds out with myself. Pablo and Tom was on that one as well. We go into a lot of detail and it's a great listen, a primer, if you will, for what we're doing here. The next episode, me and Pablo that comes out is going to be more in depth on what's happening here. But the big thing here is these are all kind of, they're almost curated in terms of what exactly is all happening and at the end of the day, what that means from the perspective of match fixing. That's the big sports story here, right? Were matches being fixed? To my mind, there's a difference between johntay Porter saying, okay, I'm going to fake an injury in the first quarter and now I'll hit all my unders by doing that versus the head coach of an NBA team saying, we're tanking. So, yeah, I'm not playing any of my guys. That's a conversation. That second one is a conversation I imagine has happened a lot over decades in the NBA, particularly when coaches know, hey, you guys are losing. I don't want. This ain't on me. I can't say this in a press conference. I can't say this out loud, but with people that I would imagine to be, you know, friends or friendly with, I can say, yeah, man, like, of course they're tanking. I'm not.

[Dan Le Batard]

But that's in. Look, that can be alleged insider trading. And then of course, comes inside information and Chauncey has to know the position he's in. You can't just tell your friends.

[Amin Elhassan]

Of course, of course. But to my mind, there is a material difference between that and, okay, here's what's going to happen. Second quarter, I'm going to take a dive and I'm going to ride around like that's someone who is actively participating in match fixing versus the revelation of information that I don't think was based on gambling, it was based on the team strategy.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, there's just a lot of information here, and I just want to be sure we don't put the baby cart before the horse.