PTFO - From Ronaldo to D-Wade: Athlete Statues, Reviewed by Pulitzer-Winning Art Critic Jerry Saltz

Summary

Podcast Summary: PTFO - From Ronaldo to D-Wade: Athlete Statues, Reviewed by Pulitzer-Winning Art Critic Jerry Saltz

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
• Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz
• Guest: Jerry Saltz, Pulitzer-Winning Art Critic
• Episode Title: PTFO - From Ronaldo to D-Wade: Athlete Statues, Reviewed by Pulitzer-Winning Art Critic Jerry Saltz
• Release Date: December 3, 2024
• Location: Elser Hotel, Downtown Miami

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Introduction to Jerry Saltz

The episode features a candid conversation between host Pablo Torre and guest Jerry Saltz, a renowned art critic who won the Pulitzer Prize for Criticism in 2018. Saltz shares his personal journey, touching on his struggles with social media, his unconventional path to becoming an art critic, and his relationship with the art world.

Notable Quote:

• [03:28] Pablo Torre: "This is the ideal audience for me for this specific episode, I think, because I know of you as, of course, the guy who won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism in 2018."
• [05:04] Jerry Saltz: "It's been a good run. That's all. I'll say. It's been a great run. It's like the New York Jets."

Navigating Social Media as an Art Critic

Saltz discusses his tumultuous relationship with social media platforms, particularly Instagram and Facebook. He humorously recounts losing access to his Instagram account and being banned from Facebook due to his controversial posts of violent medieval manuscripts paired with satirical comments.

Notable Quote:

• [05:34] Pablo Torre: "How do you describe your relationship with social media?"
• [07:00] Jerry Saltz: "My online life is where all my fun is. It's where all my talk is."

Saltz’s Path to Art Criticism

Jerry delves into his early life, highlighting his lack of formal education in art and his struggles with personal relationships. He humorously describes his time as a long-distance truck driver and his eventual pivot to art criticism as a means to find purpose and connection.

Notable Quote:

• [11:12] Jerry Saltz: "I graduated at the bottom of my enormous high school class. I come from a very dysfunctional suburban Chicago family."
• [14:56] Jerry Saltz: "I became an art critic and I started writing absolute bull. And people seemed to like it."

The Role of Criticism in Art and Sports

The core of the episode focuses on evaluating athlete statues, with Saltz providing his expert critique. He draws parallels between traditional art criticism and the creation of statues honoring athletes, emphasizing the importance of originality and emotional depth over mere resemblance.

Notable Quote:

• [20:57] Jerry Saltz: "Anyone listening to this podcast will understand this. You would never look at every God damn New York Jets game and say they're so great."

Evaluating Recent Athlete Statues

Dwyane Wade Statue

Saltz critically analyzes the newly unveiled statue of Miami Heat legend Dwyane Wade. He points out the lack of resemblance and artistic depth, describing it as a "mini statue on an idiotic store bought trophy."

Notable Quote:

• [29:12] Jerry Saltz: "That's Dwyane Wade. So that's Dwayne Weed. Great, great athlete."
• [30:41] Jerry Saltz: "So you want to. And he looks like the Rock, he looks white, which is fine with me. But you know, it has no character, it has no ambiance, it has no internal scale, it has no feel for its material. It's crap."

Cristiano Ronaldo Statue

Saltz critiques the statue of Cristiano Ronaldo by Emmanuel Santos, highlighting its exaggerated features and lack of fidelity to Ronaldo’s actual appearance. He humorously suggests that the statue resembles the artist more than the athlete.

Notable Quote:

• [40:48] Pablo Torre: "So this is Cristiano Ronaldo. So, by the way, does this statue look more like the artist who made it or Cristiano Ronaldo?"
• [41:44] Jerry Saltz: "That's well said. I think if we saw the picture of the artist. We don't know, but that is one great sculpture. Whoa."

Brandi Chastain Hall of Fame Plaque

The discussion shifts to Brandi Chastain’s Hall of Fame plaque, where Saltz remarks on its lack of resemblance and expressive quality, comparing it unfavorably to more dynamic and meaningful artistic representations.

Notable Quote:

• [39:24] Jerry Saltz: "I would call it a travesty of mimosas. Meaning it doesn't look anything mimetic art."
• [40:17] Pablo Torre: "Not great is that she also looks like Gary Busey, I guess."
• [40:20] Jerry Saltz: "God. Yes. That's the grimace."

Comparison with Classic Athletic Sculptures

Saltz draws comparisons between modern athlete statues and classical sculptures from Greece and Rome, praising the latter for their portrayal of athleticism and motion. He emphasizes that great sculptures capture not just the likeness but the spirit and dynamism of the subject.

Notable Quote:

• [35:00] Jerry Saltz: "Some of the greatest sculpture ever made was made in Greece and Rome of athletes."
• [35:19] Pablo Torre: "Oh, and by the way, the kids out there should know this was an Oscar worthy screenplay performance. All of it actually. Good."

Interactive Segment: Butter Sculpture Evaluation

In an engaging and humorous segment, Pablo introduces a butter sculpture of himself, commissioned by his staff, and invites Saltz to critique it. The interaction reveals Saltz’s appreciation for butter sculptures, a nod to his Midwestern roots, and showcases his ability to blend humor with his analytical prowess.

Notable Quote:

• [43:32] Pablo Torre: "I have not seen this. So we'll be viewing this for the first time together. Genuinely."
• [45:13] Jerry Saltz: "I think it's just lovely. I want to touch it a lot. I'm going to touch it a little."

Final Thoughts on Artistic Integrity and Market Influence

Saltz concludes by reflecting on the influence of the market on art, expressing concern that commercial interests often overshadow genuine artistic expression. He advocates for maintaining artistic integrity and resisting the lure of monetary gain at the expense of creative depth.

Notable Quote:

• [33:11] Jerry Saltz: "It leaves an opening for art to get on with its business. And it's doing just great, having huge hits of what Werner Herzog called ecstatic truths."
• [38:46] Jerry Saltz: "This is art by committee. That's what it is. It looks like art by more than one person with no touch, no hand, only an idea. They're not even artists, those two guys. They're entrepreneurs. They're scammers."

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation between Pablo and Jerry. Pablo reflects on the insights gained, particularly the notion that genuine artistic love requires rigorous criticism. Saltz emphasizes the importance of developing one's unique voice and avoiding envy of others' accomplishments.

Notable Quote:

• [46:26] Jerry Saltz: "It's a great, quiet, mute, stately object."
• [48:18] Jerry Saltz: "Thank you."

---

Key Insights:

• Artistic Criticism: True appreciation of art involves critical analysis rather than mere admiration.
• Art vs. Commercialization: The commercialization of art and sports memorabilia often dilutes artistic integrity.
• Authenticity in Representation: Athlete statues should strive to capture the essence and dynamism of their subjects rather than settling for superficial likenesses.
• Personal Growth: Developing a unique voice in any field requires dedication, self-awareness, and avoidance of external envy.

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of the intersection between art, sports, and commercialization, offering listeners valuable perspectives from a respected art critic.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Jerry Saltz]

That is an absolute work of art because it looks like a little mini statue on an idiotic store bought trophy. It's crap.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Jerry Saltz]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Jerry Saltz]

I only know how to use Instagram because a student signed me up and I lost my password. But as long as I can stay logged in, I love it. I don't know how to do anything though. Like, if I had to post this, I'm unable to do it.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Are we rolling?

[Jerry Saltz]

Chris, you want all of this?

[Pablo Torre]

I. Unfortunately.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay, we'll start again when you're ready.

[Pablo Torre]

No, we've started. Okay, we have started. If that's okay with you. The thing that I didn't realize until just a second ago when you walked in here is that you don't know your own password to your Instagram account.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. Do you know yours?

[Pablo Torre]

I do.

[Jerry Saltz]

What is it?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, we're going to.

[Jerry Saltz]

But is it like I would Tell.

[Pablo Torre]

You, but it's my password to everything, and it is very hackable.

[Jerry Saltz]

And it's like an old address or you're.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a thing that's very dear to me. I'm like talking to a mentalist. I feel like, okay. It's very dear to me. It's a childhood resonance.

[Jerry Saltz]

Got it. Got it. I know what it is. It's okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Well, now. Now I'm very insecure about what I. For people who don't know. Jerry Sells. By the way, thank you so much for being here.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's a pleasure. I love. I've heard of you. I was thrilled to come here, but I've never listened because I don't.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Well, this is the ideal audience for me for this specific episode, I think, because I know of you as, of course, the guy who won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism in 2018.

[Jerry Saltz]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I am a magazine nerd, a journalism practitioner, but also acolyte in an era where that's intimidating.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. We're the last of our kind. All these magazines. The New Yorker, New York. No one knows what we are. I don't know what we do, but what we do, we do better than everybody else. Until there's no more need for it. And then we'll just go away.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. How long away are we from that terminus?

[Jerry Saltz]

It's been a good run. That's all. I'll say. It's been a great run. It's like the New York Jets.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God.

[Jerry Saltz]

Have to completely rethink everything. We hate them and screw them.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you a sports fan?

[Jerry Saltz]

I am a big football fan and a baseball fan. I'm a Yankee fan and the jets and Giants and that's it. I w. And I'm a huge F1 nerd. Since the TV show and the pre pandemic and all of that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But wait a minute. So Yankees wise, I am here to report that I was at game five of the World Series.

[Jerry Saltz]

Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

And that felt like a grotesque performance art at a certain point.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The fifth inning. Just the worst inning in baseball history. Arguably, just so many self inflicted wounds.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. I don't know what to say. I'm a fair weather fan. I used to go, oh, we're boring your audience. Let's move on.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to get to, though, the idea that you, as an authority on art and art criticism, are also somebody who is online. The reason I started with your password is because you're also somebody with a giant. A legitimately thriving community around your online presence. How do you describe your relationship with social media.

[Jerry Saltz]

Follow me at Cherry Salts. I did this by accident. A student signed me up for it, gave me the password, which I don't even know. I accidentally cannot get on the Twitter or the Facebook or. No, I can get on. I can't get on Facebook.

[Pablo Torre]

You were banned from Facebook at one point, right?

[Jerry Saltz]

I had over a half million followers. I have like 6 or 700,000 now, but who's counting? But I am, because it's all I have.

[Pablo Torre]

The Pulitzer Prize for criticism and about, you know, three quarters of a million people.

[Jerry Saltz]

For me, my second self is my first self. And what I mean by that is my life is so boring and so limited. I see 25 or 30 shows a week, painting shows, sculpture shows at museums, galleries, alternative spaces in New York. And then I go home and I become terrified that I have to write about these. I've not gone out to dinner with anybody in decades because I'm a social misfit on the one hand and have nothing to talk about. I would sit next to you, a big wig. Oh yeah. And I would say, no, you are.

[Pablo Torre]

Wig is large.

[Jerry Saltz]

And I would say, what art shows have you seen? And you would say, I haven't seen anything. And then I would sit in silence. So I stopped going. And my wife is the co chief art critic for the New York Times.

[Pablo Torre]

A true bigwig, by the way.

[Jerry Saltz]

A true bigwig. She is the real deal. If you wanna read art criticism, read Roberta Smith. I'm sorry I'm such a slow talker, but I'm from the Midwest and so our lives together are at home in fear, getting ready to write, sitting down, writing, writing, writing, and then going out and seeing more shows. So my online life is where all my fun is. It's where all my talk is.

[Pablo Torre]

So why were you suspended from Facebook?

[Jerry Saltz]

Well, in around 2015, I was posting a lot of medieval manuscripts which had been digitalized and rediscovered and were being seen for the first time. A lot of these are very violent. Or the ones I would post, and I would post like a woman having her breast cut off, a man being castrated. And I would make some wise guy comment like, you know, this is 13th century, this is 8th century, and me coming into your studio if your work is no good. And it turned out that I was not violating any rules of the community. I got a lot of correspondence from Facebook. They said thousands of people from the art world protested.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, what you're describing is stuff that might be found in museums, right?

[Jerry Saltz]

Great art.

[Pablo Torre]

This is like high Art.

[Jerry Saltz]

Great art. But with my unfortunate commentary seemed, and this was just after Trump won the first Trump regime and me too, had just gotten going. And at first I didn't listen. I said, come on, this is great art. But after a while, they suspended me. And then I got back on after 30 days. But I also rethought it. I thought, if there's enough people telling me this is uncomfortable for them, I trust that men know nothing about anything. We barely have an inner life. We think about seeing women naked. This is a straight man. We think about seeing a woman naked so far. We think about abstract problems like will there be time travel? And we think about traffic.

[Pablo Torre]

Other than that, I cross out my will there be time travel? Question. But as for the other questions that I had prepared to ask Jerry Saltz, who is, again, simply one of the most respected authorities in the entire world of art, you should know that the premise for this episode first came about because the highest honor that sports bestows upon an athlete or a coach is in fact a work of art, a statue. A statue which, as you may have been reminded recently in the case of, say, Dwyane Wade, is not always as popular as the person it seeks to honor. And so I wanted Jerry and his Pulitzer and his three honorary doctorates and his decades of criticism to basically serve as PTFO's unbiased and completely overqualified art critic, as you'll see in a bit here. But first, I think you need to understand the origin of his truly incomparable point of view. I do want to establish that you yourself, I mean, is it were an artist? Is it a present tense thing? How do you conceive of yourself in that definitional way?

[Jerry Saltz]

I graduated at the bottom of my enormous high school class. I come from a very dysfunctional suburban Chicago family. I had rented an apartment in the city. The night I graduated high school, my parents didn't bother coming to our graduation. I came home, handed them my diploma, and I left home and I moved into that apartment. I barely went back ever, ever again. We were friends, but I just didn't care about them. They didn't care about me. It was all fine. I became an artist. I never went to school. Anybody listening to this? I am a much bigger loser than even you. I have no degrees, never went to school. I really don't know anything. I became an artist. I moved to New York when I was 27. The same demons that you have, like before I came in here or last night that said, what are you doing? You can't do this, you don't know what you're doing. I mean, you're pulling the wool over everybody's eyes. You have a bad neck or whatever it is.

[Pablo Torre]

It is so far all true.

[Jerry Saltz]

All those things I listened to and I self exiled from the art world and I became a long distance truck driver. I still hung out in the art world. I would work for a couple of weeks. I would drive from New York to Florida or to Texas, occasionally to California.

[Pablo Torre]

Did you have a handle like the cb?

[Jerry Saltz]

It was the Jewish cowboy. And I would get on the CB and I would go, shalom, partner. Let's talk about the late work of Richard Serra. And none of them ever spoke to me. Either I'm a slow talker or they just recognized a rube. I did this for 10 years, man. All I did was drive back and forth. I never went anywhere, I never talked to anybody. I met a prostitute once and she said, you want a date? And I got terrified and I ran back to my hotel room in Jacksonville, Florida. That was on the third day I went to work and I swore that from now on I would sleep with every prostitute. And I never met another one. As you can see, I don't put off the vibe, I don't have the sex vibe. You're good looking, people look at you and they want you. I'm old and short and bald and wear glasses that you don't know what it was like.

[Pablo Torre]

And yet in that story, that deeply bleak story that happened to you in Jacksonville, Florida, there is a lesson for me. And what by the end of this episode, I will determine exactly what I should take away as a lesson from your streak of prostitutelessness.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah, nothing. And then I became so desperate and so lonely, I thought, I can't do this anymore. And I thought, what could I do? And I thought, I'll become an art critic now. At that point, I had never written a word in my life. I didn't read, I did nothing. I thought, oh, critics could get famous, sleep with women and make a lot of money. None of those things are possible. Being an art critic at all, I.

[Pablo Torre]

Was going to say no.

[Jerry Saltz]

So I became an art critic and I started writing absolute bull. And people seemed to like it. I would write, the late commodified object of post structuralist capitalism finds its liminal space between interrogating nature and culture, blah, blah, blah.

[Pablo Torre]

Interrogate's a great art critic word, by.

[Jerry Saltz]

The way, and which you should never use anyway. So I started writing that way. And slowly I found my own voice. And at 41 I began working. So all of you listening to this, you haven't even begun yet. Get your acts together, you big babies. It's hard. No one said it's going to be easy. You have to work, work, work, work, work. And you have to show up. I'm afraid you can't be like me and hang back. I didn't hang back then as much as I was unfit to hang out. And I did it every night. You have to sacrifice it all. You have to meet other people like yourself. You can't be a vampire alone. You have to have a coven, or whatever those things are called, and have each other to. Otherwise, you think you know things other people don't know, and that's unlikely. You know nothing. And you just need to hang out, get to work and work in your own voice. You have to make an enemy of envy. You cannot look out and have your eyes scanning the world and always be comparing yourself to others.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I want to actually jump in on that, because as an artist yourself, I do wanna reveal that I've done a minor bit of research, Jerry, into your oeuvre. But I jump in to say that you won the National Endowment of the Arts grant.

[Jerry Saltz]

Right?

[Pablo Torre]

You were in museums, you were reviewed in Art Forum, you were in galleries.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So I wanna get to the idea of envy, but I also want you to describe to me what you were making, such that maybe those feelings were bubbling to the surface.

[Jerry Saltz]

Well, I had lit upon one giant project. I think, in retrospect, it was to protect me, come up with a new idea every time out. I was going to illustrate Dante's divine comedy, all 100 cantos or chapters. I was going to do 100 works on each of the 100 cantos. And it would be a 25 year project. I know, I'm nuts. It would be a 25 year project.

[Pablo Torre]

That's incredible.

[Jerry Saltz]

It began two days before Easter 1975, before everybody here was born. It was supposed to end on easter, the year 2000. Okay, that's.

[Pablo Torre]

Ambition is a word that comes to mind.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. And I made it as far as the third Canto. The work was well received, but as you know, with all the great stuff happening to you. How old are you?

[Pablo Torre]

I am 39 years old.

[Jerry Saltz]

Are ready? You think I'm over the hill. I'm washed up.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. My neck actually does hurt.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah, mine hurts. And I have aches and pains. Nothing will protect you. So all I can offer is to say to yourself, I'm not going to look at others. The accomplishment of others. I'M going to just look at myself. You are cause in the matter you created your situation, not all of their success. So make an enemy of envy.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Pablo Torre]

Your view that to love art is to criticize it rigorously?

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Do you feel like that is the default in your profession? How has that sort of maybe evolved itself over time?

[Jerry Saltz]

Anybody listening to this podcast will understand this. You would never look at every God damn New York jets game and say they're so great. Oh my God, their offensive line is off the charts. Fantastic. No love means also being critical. Movie critics aren't supposed to like everything. Wine writers don't love every wine, but for some reason art critics are expected to love everything. I would say that we're living in a period of culture where criticism has seemed to leave the building, meaning that everyone's afraid. I know what we're afraid of. We're afraid of being called racist, sexist, homophobes, xenophobes. So what's happened? I think through a lack of nerve, but also a dramatic shift in what criticism is in the present. Now, criticism holds things up. We put this woman artist above us and we hold her up, or that queer artist above us. I'm all for that. The art world had closed doors for 50,000 years. Where are all the Asian artists in Western art history? There aren't any, because we didn't believe it was possible. I imagine sports is going through something similar, but on a corporate level, as it becomes more and more and more monetized.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. I mean, by the way, speaking of money, right? We're talking in the week that I believe a Magritte piece just sold for $121 million.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. Or whatever the number is. It's an obscene amount of money. It's offensive. You could fund every rape kit left languishing on the shelves in America for 10 years for that one painting. But on the other hand, somebody wanted the painting. You only need two people to bid on something.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Jerry Saltz]

And I hate auctions, but I accept them as part of our current reality. On the other hand, it leaves an opening for everyone else who isn't obsessed with money. We all want it. I get that we're supposed to be jealous of everyone making 59 million, but it leaves an opening for art to get on with its business. And it's doing just great, having huge hits of what Werner Herzog called ecstatic truths, which means opening spaces for consciousness to step outside yourself, to slow time down. There's still space for that, but not out there in the market.

[Pablo Torre]

So where does art that is meant to pay tribute fit into your worldview on how art can be beautiful and rigorous and a story in and of itself? Because, Jerry, you famously. I am not overstating this. You critiqued a presidential portrait of Barack Obama.

[Jerry Saltz]

Oh, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

By Kehinde Wiley.

[Jerry Saltz]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Very famous artist himself.

[Jerry Saltz]

I said it was. I said it was. Because, listen, I loved the Amy Sherald portrait of Michelle Obama, mind you. So these two paintings were presented at the same time. Kehinde Wiley's painting is. Because it's photo realism. Good for photorealism. It projects an image. You get a picture, you project it, you paint it perfect. You send it to China. They can do it. Kehinde has his studio fill in a cuckoo background and sets Barack on an African chair. I guess that's his contribution. And as a painting, it is completely unoriginal. As an image of Obama, it's unlike every other presidential portrait ever made. So it depends how I judge it as a thing, not as what the artist says it is. My wife says no artist owns the meaning of their own work. In other words, each of us, as Oscar Wilde said, when we read a book, we're not reading the author. You're reading yourself. When you read Dante, you are reading yourself into Dante, into Shakespeare, into Mozart, into Jay Z, into Beyonce, whoever. The other portrait was much better of Amy Sherlock.

[Pablo Torre]

The Kehinde Wiley portrait for just those who did.

[Jerry Saltz]

Do you like it? Well, so here's the thing that it's realistic.

[Pablo Torre]

So I went to see his work at the Brooklyn Museum at one point, and I was struck immediately by the concept, his sort of thing, which is, I'm gonna transpose black figures into regal. And you're nodding because of course, you're familiar with this, but there's an ornate, regal aspect to the background. True to. Phil agrees to all of it. And I'm the guy, by the way, who saw that. And I was like, I'm gonna buy the book at the gift shop.

[Jerry Saltz]

Good.

[Pablo Torre]

This is cool.

[Jerry Saltz]

Good.

[Pablo Torre]

And then cool. I guess my issue is, in retrospect is my evolution in taste happened, is that he just kept on doing it again and again and again and it became formulaic, admittedly.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And it sort of felt like he had one idea and he managed to execute it a zillion times.

[Jerry Saltz]

Bingo. And you know what? There are a lot of artists like that. I can tell you their names if you want to go. They will never make you go deep. What they'll make you do is they'll tell you what you already know and they'll tell you the same thing over and over again. And that's very reassuring. I don't look to art to be reassured. That's also saying, oh, a black woman could be Napoleon. That's a cool thought, but it would be cooler if you could make it a cooler painting. And he can't do it. And other artists do.

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[Pablo Torre]

Do you know who Dwyane Wade is?

[Jerry Saltz]

I do not know. Who is Dwyane Wade?

[Pablo Torre]

This is perfect.

[News Reporter]

Tonight there's a mystery brewing in South Florida.

[Pablo Torre]

I can't believe that. Who is that guy?

[News Reporter]

It's supposed to be a statue of the man asking that question, Miami Heat legend Dwyane Wade. But the Internet is not quite so sure.

[DraftKings Announcer]

That is not D. Wade.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's Shannon Sharp, the Rock. Like, who is that?

[News Reporter]

Outside the Heat home arena Sunday, the team unveiled this new tribute to the man known as D. Wade. While there's plenty of debate about whose faith that is, when you look at the whole statue, it's hard to see anybody else. A figure in a Heat jersey on top of the scorers table. Some will tell you that's gotta be Dwyane Wade with eight. Wade picking this iconic moment from his game winning steal and shot against The Chicago Bulls 2009.

[Jerry Saltz]

Wade puts it up for the win. So that's Dwayne Weed. Great, great athlete.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Dwayne Wade is maybe the greatest player in Miami Heat history. He is the guy posing as such. Fists, bald, mouth open, right. Ferocious.

[Jerry Saltz]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And it raises the question of when you are making a. A statue, a work of art, that is meant to be a tribute to someone, right? And the first response that everybody has is that doesn't look like Dwyane Wade.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's true. It doesn't look anything like him. What I'll say is that is an absolute work of art because it looks like a little mini statue on an idiotic store bought trophy. And it's just got. There's nothing to it other than the pose. So you want to. And he looks like the Rock, he looks white, which is fine with me. But you know, it has no character, it has no ambiance, it has no internal scale, it has no feel for its material. It found a photograph, scanned it most likely or some and reproduced it. It's crap.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Jerry Saltz]

How much did they pay for it? $100? 200?

[Pablo Torre]

We don't know exactly what was paid, Jerry.

[Jerry Saltz]

Do you like it?

[Pablo Torre]

I don't. But I also want to point out when it comes to resemblance. Right, okay. How important is it for the statue of somebody to be actually a photorealistic depiction of them in real life?

[Jerry Saltz]

Well, it's not that important to me. I can see that. It could be important to people who worship that person. But I would remind all of Those worshipers and fans that all the different pictures of Jesus that they've seen are equally realistic and equal fictions that they're idealized or de. Idealized. Or maybe you like Francis Bacon's Exploding Jesus. Maybe that speaks to you. What this says is, I wanted to be a realist sculptor, and I found a photograph and I made it without paying much attention to it at all, other than the signature pose.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Jerry Saltz]

So in the next generation, we'll look at that sculpture and see metal. They won't see a person, they won't see a likeness, they'll see a material. And even the material isn't that interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. The bronze.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's all they're going to see. I promise you. It looks like a lot of academic sculpture. You know, the mouth is open. I can see the teeth. Somebody got in there and filed them down. Good on them. Good technique, I guess. That's good. I would pay $400 for that and put it in a backyard at best. There's nothing wrong with that. That's fun.

[Pablo Torre]

Can I. Does it. Does it do anything for you? If I play a video of the artist's response to a larger reaction, I'd.

[Jerry Saltz]

Love to hear it. I would say to anybody that's even slightly critical, come to Miami. Come to Miami. Take a look at it in person, and you'll be very pleasantly surprised.

[News Reporter]

Both of the sculpture's artists defending their work, saying Wade visited with them four times, adding they used a computer to get the details right.

[Pablo Torre]

He approved it on the site, he approved it in the photos, and he approved himself. And if somebody else doesn't approve him, he can go to Dwayne himself.

[Jerry Saltz]

Of course he did.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so that's Omri Amrani, I should say the co. Sculptor, I guess they have some sort of.

[Jerry Saltz]

It looks like art by committee. That's what it is. It looks like art by more than one person with no touch, no hand, only an idea. They're not even artists, those two guys. They're entrepreneurs. They're scammers. They don't know it.

[Pablo Torre]

Listen, I feel about you to say allegedly, I guess, in there somewhere, but I don't want to. They're alleged.

[Jerry Saltz]

To me, I allege that they might be scammers in this sense that Oscar Wilde said, all the worst poetry is sincere. So what? That they sincerely wanted to make this realistic. Good on them. I didn't take that away from them. I don't think it looks like anybody.

[Pablo Torre]

It doesn't look like Dwayne Wade at all.

[Jerry Saltz]

No. And that's Fine. Dane Reid liked it and he's cool with it. And could they have made something magnificent? Yes, they could, but they could have also made something much worse. It could have been a piece of string, you know, tied to a chain, some bull. That happens as well. So this is a happy medium between thinking and non thinking. That looks like a photograph in three dimensions.

[Pablo Torre]

What do you think of this sculpture? Are you familiar with this work?

[Jerry Saltz]

Is that Rocky?

[Pablo Torre]

This is the Rocky statue.

[Jerry Saltz]

I have stood there, I've posed with him. What I want to say is that some of the greatest sculpture ever made was made in Greece and Rome of athletes.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Discus throwers and.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah, this as much as I love the first Rocky movie.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, and by the way, the kids out there should know this was an Oscar worthy.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Screenplay performance. All of it actually. Good.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. Watch it. You know, it has a happy ending, whatever. But the point is, as a work of art, it only goes to the Wade Johnson place. You could put the name Wade Johnson on this, it would be the same. The pose has.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, the Dwyane Wade.

[Jerry Saltz]

You mean the Dwyane Wade.

[Pablo Torre]

I love that you have no idea who Dwayne Wade is. I mean that so sincerely. You're the most pure sample that we could have for this exercise. So I love it. But proceed.

[Jerry Saltz]

This is another. Is that you? No, that's Sylvester Stallone. He's as tall as I am. I love him. He's a big trump guy. But he's done good work. And you know what?

[Pablo Torre]

That's true. All that's true.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's fine. You know, Dane Reed and that guy, they contributed a lot to the culture. Yeah, they should get statues of themselves.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure you should.

[Jerry Saltz]

I just hope that yours will be better.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I would. I would like to submit more.

[Jerry Saltz]

Let's see more.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, can we. Can we get Michael Jordan on the screen, please?

[Jerry Saltz]

The greatest of all.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is how they commemorated the greatest. His airness outside of the United center where the Chicago.

[Jerry Saltz]

I love the figure underneath him. Can I see the. The close up of the humunculus beneath him. Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

There is a humunculous aspect to the person he is dunking over.

[Jerry Saltz]

The figure underneath Michael is great and he's got an extra face. His face has fallen off. It's like an arm with like 70 figure. I mean, here's what's great. The pose of this and the juxtaposition of the super realist. This is better for one reason. The idea of the baroque means the baroque back in the 1600s was the invention of movies. Of the cinematic, dramatic, melodramatic motion. Action, action. This is an action shot. This is a frozen moment in time. The basketball is just on Michael's fingertips. His left hand is giving himself balance. His feet are spread out for maximum height and balance. The person underneath him becomes meaningless.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. As if they are every person he's ever jumped up.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's you. That's mortal reality, immortal reality. Again, the realism is what it is. That's not bad. He's like his hair under his arm, his lip is being clenched. He's like staring at the target. There's stuff going on there.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Jerry Saltz]

Who made that one?

[Pablo Torre]

So this was one of the two guys that made the Dwyane Wade sculpt.

[Jerry Saltz]

His holder work is better.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. No, I agree.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. This is so much better.

[Pablo Torre]

This is an amazing statue that I can imagine Dwayne Wade in Miami Heat or maybe like, can we get our version of that? And they brought him the thing that we evaluated.

[Jerry Saltz]

And that's what makes you a great commentator and podcaster. You understand that quality has been determined in this case by the market picking something the market already picked.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay. And you're getting that self reiterative, smoothing out and deadening. That. That will do. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Can we just show you Brandi Chastain for a second? Because Brandi Chastain, all time American women's soccer player. And this is her hall of fame plaque, the Bay Area Sports hall of Fame. And this is her in real life.

[Jerry Saltz]

What's the sport that Brent?

[Pablo Torre]

Soccer.

[Jerry Saltz]

I would call it a travesty of mimosas. Meaning it doesn't look anything mimetic art. Cause it doesn't look even remotely. They've taken a thin woman, a blonde, and made her into Gertrude Stein. And for that. That's kind of interesting. Or you know, like a Russian policewoman. But yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Eleanor Roosevelt, perhaps. Yeah.

[Jerry Saltz]

There's nothing wrong with that. But if I were Brandy, I might be a little miffed. But, you know, I don't think athletes even think that way.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Her view was, I think, to your point, quote, it's not the most flattering, but it's nice.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. That's not untrue. Right? It's good to be remembered.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Not great is that she also looks like Gary Busey, I guess.

[Jerry Saltz]

God. Yes. That's the grimace. I don't know where the grimace came from.

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's like the rictus of what is her left cheek on the right side of the image. Just like the indentation feels busian.

[Jerry Saltz]

Wow. Yeah, you got it. It's a picture of Gary Busey. They could change it out.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah. And then lastly, the last, I think, case study for you is just Cristiano Ronaldo, who, I presume you have no idea.

[Jerry Saltz]

I do know him.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Jerry Saltz]

Because soccer is a great sport and American men can. What?

[Pablo Torre]

So this is.

[Jerry Saltz]

That could be a great piece of folk art. That is a great piece of up. Super crazy, manneristic. Meaning the neck is about a foot and a half long. The hair is standing up and out. The face is completely crooked. The eyes are asymmetric.

[Pablo Torre]

Your eyes are doing good.

[Jerry Saltz]

He's looking at with sheer madness. I'd love to meet that artist. I mean, that is wild.

[Pablo Torre]

This artist's name is Emmanuel Santos.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's the artist.

[Pablo Torre]

That is Ronaldo.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

That is Cristiano Ronaldo. So, by the way, does this statue look more like the artist who made it or Cristiano Ronaldo, famed as one of the most angular, beautiful, symmetrical faces in human history? Your mileage may vary.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's well said. I think if we saw the picture of the artist. We don't know, but that is one great sculpture. Whoa.

[Pablo Torre]

So you love this one.

[Jerry Saltz]

Not of Ronaldo. It is not Ronaldo. That's fine.

[Pablo Torre]

Call it in a vacuum. You love this specific work.

[Jerry Saltz]

I would tell that artist to push all these ideas, get rid of the computer, get rid of the realism, and just go for it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Jerry Saltz]

That's mad.

[Pablo Torre]

There's one more thing I'd like you to evaluate.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

If you can hold.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Until after the break. Jerry, you've stuck around very generously, and we've brought in Sophie from the other side of the glass.

[Jerry Saltz]

Love it.

[Pablo Torre]

Because this is an original work that I have not seen. So we'll be viewing this for the first time together. Genuinely.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Not a bit. I have not seen this.

[Jerry Saltz]

I'll let you react to it first.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. I wanna give some identifying information. This is by Jim Victor and Marie Pelton, a couple from Pennsylvania. Their chosen medium is butter. And. Sophie, will you unveil.

[Jerry Saltz]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

The sculpture very delicately from the. I mean.

[Jerry Saltz]

What do you think?

[Pablo Torre]

I.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's facing him now. I know what I think.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know if I've ever felt the feeling that I'm feeling right now. Okay.

[Jerry Saltz]

What. What are some of the thoughts that you're having when you look at the face?

[Pablo Torre]

It's hard not to think that this person is more handsome than me. I should probably reveal for the audio audience that my staff has commissioned a butter sculpture of me.

[Jerry Saltz]

Wow. It's larger than Life size slightly larger.

[Pablo Torre]

It's really impressive. It's I. The texturing of my hair. I want to say. I don't know if there's a better. I don't know if bronze can do what butter is doing right now. There is a bit of a. I'm smizing.

[Jerry Saltz]

I think I gotta come.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, let's rotate. Let's rotate the microphone for. How do I go to cherry salts? I think you just rotate it this way.

[Jerry Saltz]

All right, I'm coming around.

[Pablo Torre]

This is incredible. Like, it is covered in butter, this old base.

[Jerry Saltz]

Wow. See, I thought you looked like jfk. Here. Touch it. Sculpture. Touch it.

[Pablo Torre]

Jerry and I are touching it, and it's. And it's legitimately right. Dairy.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's butter.

[Pablo Torre]

It's legit dairy.

[Jerry Saltz]

It's Naples yellow butter. You have a great open collar. A T shirt.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Jerry Saltz]

Do you have a mustache?

[Pablo Torre]

I do. In this. I have what I aspire. I have the mustache of my dreams. Butter me has the facial hair I desire. They were generous with a healthy serving above my upper lip.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. You look like a statesman, actually.

[Pablo Torre]

I do.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I look like I am more in charge than I feel day to day. Have you ever evaluated a butter sculpture before?

[Jerry Saltz]

Well, I'm a huge fan of butter sculpture, being from the Midwest.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, that's right.

[Jerry Saltz]

Yeah. We have in Wisconsin. There's a whole tradition of it. I'm mad for it. I also look at ice sculptures. A corn sculpture is a big favorite of mine. This is just lovely. I think it's just lovely. I want to touch it a lot. I'm going to touch it a little.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I mean, if you were to put.

[Jerry Saltz]

His head next to it. Let me get my phone and take its picture.

[Pablo Torre]

Jerry's going to take a photo of.

[Jerry Saltz]

This, and I'll make him famous or something like that.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm staring at myself in the glass.

[Jerry Saltz]

You are? What do you see?

[Pablo Torre]

To my butter self there. If there was no one else around in this room, there's not a lot I wouldn't do to this butter sculpture of me. Butter me and I would explore each other.

[Jerry Saltz]

Well, I think it's a great, quiet, mute, stately object.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I feel like something good has happened that I don't entirely want to celebrate.

[Jerry Saltz]

But inside, you have to celebrate this.

[Pablo Torre]

Inside, I am overjoyed. In my eyes, they're telling a story.

[Jerry Saltz]

What's the story being told?

[Pablo Torre]

These are the eyes of someone who is encountering.

[Jerry Saltz]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Maybe this is literal. Maybe this is figurative. Jerry. They're encountering their first prostitute wow. In Jacksonville, Florida. And they're thinking to themselves, I think it's time.

[Jerry Saltz]

God, you're a bigger man than I am. Is there a way to preserve this?

[Pablo Torre]

Apparently. We have a couple of hours.

[Jerry Saltz]

Okay. I want you to document it, because it'll get better. It'll get much better as it loses its structural integrity and becomes more abstract and melts. There's an artist named Urs Fischer.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. A Swiss visual artist.

[Jerry Saltz]

And put in candle sculptures. It's huge. Melted candle sculptures. Right. Document that, you'll get famous. And you can get the hell out of the podcast game.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God. I. I've learned. I found out so much today, Jerry. Me, too. Mostly that maybe you actually can buy love.

[Jerry Saltz]

You got that for free. You didn't need anything. You just needed your beautiful self and art.

[Pablo Torre]

Jerry Saltz.

[Jerry Saltz]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm going to remember this day for the rest of my life.

[Jerry Saltz]

I will, too.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.