PTFO - One Yard at a Time: A Mystery

Summary

Podcast Summary: PTFO - One Yard at a Time: A Mystery

Release Date: May 30, 2025
Podcast: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz
Guests: Sarah Spain, Dylan McCullough, Sherman Smith

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Introduction

In the episode titled "PTFO - One Yard at a Time: A Mystery," The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz delves into the compelling and emotional journey of Dylan McCullough—a successful NFL coach grappling with his mysterious past. Hosted by Dan Le Batard and Stugotz, alongside guest Sarah Spain, the episode unravels a story that intertwines sports, family secrets, and personal identity.

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Unveiling the Story: Runs in the Family

Sarah Spain introduces her book, Runs in the Family, which chronicles Dylan McCullough's life, focusing on his adoption and the subsequent discovery of his biological father, Sherman Smith, an esteemed NFL coach.

• Sarah Spain: "It is coming out. It is called Runs in the Family." [01:28]

Dylan McCullough shares his initial skepticism and emotional response upon learning about his adoption.

• Dylan McCullough: "He opens the door. He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again." [00:06]

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Early Life and Adoption

The narrative begins with Dylan's adoption in December 1972, placed with the McCullough family in Youngstown, Ohio, amidst the city's economic downturn due to the collapsing steel industry.

• Sherman Smith: "They call it Black Monday. That is where Dylan McCullough comes from." [06:20]

Dylan grows up in a non-football-centric household, despite his adoptive father, C. McCullough, being a popular local radio DJ who immerses the family in the vibrant local culture.

• Sarah Spain: "This is the 70s and 80s that he starts out. So the radio in particular, local radio was such a huge part of people's everyday life." [06:47]

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Football as an Escape and Identity

Football becomes Dylan's sanctuary, allowing him to channel his inner turmoil and self-doubt into the sport. His dedication leads to a breakthrough senior year, catching the attention of top coaches like Bob Stoops and Jim Tressel.

• Dylan McCullough: "I was writing letters to smaller schools and I was pretty much set to go to the Navy, not to play football." [10:58]

Despite excelling on the field, Dylan grapples with feelings of embarrassment over his family's financial struggles, symbolized by his inability to afford basic necessities like a phone.

• Sarah Spain: "He doesn't have a phone until his senior year, which becomes very important as he's taking recruiting calls that they actually do have a working phone." [11:10]

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Introduction to Sherman Smith

A pivotal moment occurs when Sherman Smith, a former Seahawks running back and Dylan's future biological father, recruits him to Miami University.

• Dylan McCullough: "He was talking to a guy that had been a star at the highest level and who believed that he might be that too." [13:10]

Smith's coaching philosophy resonates deeply with Dylan, embodying the fatherly guidance he has long sought.

• Sarah Spain: "He would say to every team at the beginning of the season, none of you asked me to be a father, but I'm going to treat you like you're my sons." [15:26]

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Career Challenges and Transition to Education

After a promising start with the Cincinnati Bengals, Dylan's career is derailed by a severe knee injury, leading him to transition into education. His resilience drives him to impact at-risk youth through teaching and eventually coaching.

• Dylan McCullough: "People say I can't do this. It was always for me, proving people wrong." [19:10]

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The Revelation: Discovering Sherman Smith as His Biological Father

At age 44, Dylan receives unexpected contact from his biological mother, Carol Briggs, revealing that Sherman Smith is his father. This revelation intertwines his personal and professional lives in an unprecedented manner.

• Dylan McCullough: "She said, your dad is a man by the name of Sherman Smith. When she said that, I was like, my mind was blown." [32:05]

Sherman Smith grapples with the sudden discovery of fatherhood, balancing his established life with the newfound relationship.

• Sarah Spain: "He needed to stop centering himself and consider what it meant to Dylan to find him." [34:45]

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Emotional Reunion and Relationship Dynamics

The episode culminates in an emotional reunion where Sherman Smith embraces Dylan as his son, a moment that reconciles decades of unanswered questions and emotional longing.

• Dylan McCullough: "He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again." [36:20]

The hosts reflect on the profound impact of this revelation, emphasizing the themes of choice, identity, and legacy.

• Sarah Spain: "At every turn, I'm in charge and this is my choice." [42:24]

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Conclusion: Legacy and Continuing the Journey

"Dylan McCullough's story is a testament to resilience, the search for identity, and the enduring impact of mentorship. His journey from a troubled youth in Youngstown to an influential NFL coach and now a man reconnecting with his biological father offers profound insights into the complexities of family and personal growth."

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Notable Quotes with Attributions and Timestamps

• Sarah Spain: "I am throwing myself a book baby shower wherein I buy myself a push present because honestly... why did I choose to do this?" [01:41]

• Dylan McCullough: "I'm a running back, I'm a running back, I'm a running back and I want." [14:39]

• Pablo Torre: "How does Dylan then tell Sherman what he has found out?" [32:33]

• Sarah Spain: "It's been joyful mostly, and also complicated." [37:33]

• Dylan McCullough: "I need to talk to you about something." [32:47]

• Sarah Spain: "We always know we can count on you." [45:30]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz masterfully blends personal storytelling with sports insights, offering listeners a heartfelt exploration of family, identity, and the unforeseen ways our past shapes our present. Through Dylan McCullough's journey, the podcast underscores the importance of mentorship, resilience, and the enduring quest for understanding one's roots.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Dylan McCullough]

He opens the door. He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again. Because I've never been referred to as somebody's son.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. You're listening to DraftKings Network.

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[Pablo Torre]

You know, one of the things that I have to do at the top is say, first, thank you for doing this. Sarah Spain.

[Dylan McCullough]

Hello.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, and the other thing is to do a thing that is cruel, which is to say there is a twist in this story which we're not going.

[Sherman Smith]

To give away because we're trying to.

[Pablo Torre]

Be good at telling stories, but holy.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, that was my response when I first heard the story was pretty much holy.

[Pablo Torre]

And now that story is a book, which is why you are here with us today. It is coming out. It is called Runs in the Family. What's the metaphor that you choose to use to describe the process of birthing? This.

[Sarah Spain]

Actually, I've been joking. I am throwing myself a book baby shower wherein I buy myself a push present because honestly, and though the labor maybe wasn't as painful as a human baby, but at the beginning, I was like to quote you earlier, holy. Why did I choose to do this?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I should say, I mean, to quote Tony Kheiser about his own hands, these fingers don't really type anymore.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, I am worried about you. After you did that interview where you said some of your articles, you actually changed the words in sentences so that the ends of them would line up in a paragraph. So it looked nice. I was like, oh, he should never write a book.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, that. That whole thing about how you are not burdened by the neurosis of writing. I, for not familiar, was making my paragraphs into like perfect, symmetrical rectangles before I gave myself permission to write the.

[Sarah Spain]

Next paragraph, which is, have you seen someone for that?

[Pablo Torre]

You. It turns out I'm seeing you for that and you have not helped.

[Sarah Spain]

My bad.

[Pablo Torre]

Could you give just like the log line of this movie before the thing that we're dancing around?

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah. So the protagonist and co Author. His name's Dylan McCullough. He is currently the Raiders running backs coach.

[Dylan McCullough]

Coach Carol and all of the upper management has done a great job of, first of all, putting together a great staff, I believe a really, really, really good staff. And then getting, you know, we got obviously OTAs going on right now. And it's been. It's been very encouraging. Let me say it like that, been very encouraging.

[Sarah Spain]

He was most recently with Notre Dame, helping them to the national championship. Previous to that, famously with the Kansas City Chiefs, helped them to a Super Bowl.

[Unknown Guest]

D. How special is it to be a part of this?

[Dylan McCullough]

I mean, it's unbelievable. You know, I know I made a statement a couple just about the dream that you have as a youth football player in high school and college about getting to this level.

[Sherman Smith]

I didn't know D before the super.

[Pablo Torre]

Bowl with the Chiefs, in which it was like, oh, that's the guy who has been coaching, you know, Damian Williams, where they are just like scampering all over the field, makes a cut and.

[Sarah Spain]

Will roll into the end zone for the touchdown.

[Dylan McCullough]

No flags.

[Sarah Spain]

I wasn't familiar with him either, but a friend of mine in Chicago here played college football with him, which is how the story came to me. Sort of out of the blue. And out of nowhere, he sat me down when we were grabbing drinks. I was like, oh, I gotta tell you this crazy story. And within probably less than three minutes of the story, chills, almost in tears. And I was like, oh, we gotta do something with this.

[Sherman Smith]

So I just need you to know that what we're gonna do with this today might seem like a story about a running backs coach at this point. A coach whose job, if you were not familiar, is basically devoted to teaching a running back how to shrug off and fight off all of the people who are desperately trying to stop them from moving forward as much as one single yard. But this story is about more than that. This story is also about a running back. A running back whose entire identity was a mystery. Because thanks to the laws in our country, as we will discuss, adoption as a concept way too often entails mystery. But what we know is that long before Dylan McCullough beat the Niners in the super bowl and became a successful NFL coach, and also recently agreed to talk to Pablo Torre, finds out for this episode. As you will hear throughout, he was born and put up for adoption in December 1972. And we also know that Dylan's adoptive parents lived in a place that would be economically decimated by the collapse of the steel industry by September 1977, when Dylan was just four years old and that place was Youngstown, Ohio.

[Dylan McCullough]

It's hard to believe this is happening after working here for so many years. It's hard to believe that we're put out on the and don't know what we're gonna do. 5,000 steel workers, many of them skilled.

[Sherman Smith]

Veterans of 20 to 30 years, lost.

[Dylan McCullough]

Their jobs in Youngstown and nearby Campbell. They have a name for the day disaster struck.

[Sherman Smith]

They call it Black Monday. That is where Dylan McCullough comes from.

[Sarah Spain]

He's adopted by a young couple who's very much in love that already have a son welcomed to the family. And the dad is this guy named C. McCullough who's a popular local radio DJ in Youngstown.

[Pablo Torre]

What kind of local DJ are we talking about? What's kind of the affect here? For his adopted father, the guy who.

[Sarah Spain]

Would announce on the radio if there was a snow day, the guy who would introduce you to the latest top 40 hit, the hottest hits, Hot 101 and you'd get to hear the song for the first time. This is the 70s and 80s that he starts out. So the radio in particular, local radio was such a huge part of people's everyday, everyday life.

[Sherman Smith]

Yes.

[Unknown Guest]

All right, so we're ACN Kelly and.

[Pablo Torre]

We have some special guests here this morning.

[Unknown Guest]

So we want to say hi to.

[Sarah Spain]

Celeste from the shops of Gordman Park. So after some of the local concerts in Youngstown, folks would come over to their house for after parties to get a late night home cooked meal and keep the party going. So Dylan was around Tiny Tim, very old fashioned now for young people, there would always be stacks of tickets to a variety of local bands or concerts that were happening in their house. But after about two years, the couple doesn't make it. He leaves. And for Dylan, there's a particular pain in the fact that he hears his father's voice every day on the radio. But his father wants nothing to do with him in life. And then his mother brings in another husband, some other boyfriends, really hoping to provide a father figure. But her choice is never really made match her intentions. And they are abusive. One of them has a crack problem.

[Dylan McCullough]

Although there were men, there was a couple guys there, they weren't. They didn't fit the bill as the true father figure. Like, wow, I want to do what this guy do and follow what his teachings and what his actions are. I didn't want to do that.

[Sarah Spain]

You need to understand that there were so many people struggling in Youngstown trying to pay for Heat and electricity, trying to put food on the table, trying to stay out of jail. People around him were struggling with so many big things.

[Sherman Smith]

And so Dyland how long has he.

[Pablo Torre]

Known that he is adopted?

[Sarah Spain]

At about 7 years old, he's sitting on the floor at a friend's house, his mom is talking with friends and he's playing with a toy and he overhears his mom say pittsburgh, that's where we went to get Dylan when we adopted him. And he says I'm adopted. And she says yep. And then goes back to her conversation and they try to talk about it again in the car very briefly and she sort of shuts it down. And it becomes pretty clear to him that it's not really something to talk about. And for him there was not really the privilege of let me do some navel gazing about my identity and where I come from, right? It's like, how do I get by today and tomorrow and the next day and how does my family get by? So he really didn't talk about it with his mom again for 30 years.

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[Pablo Torre]

So to be very clear in terms of the kind of family that Dylan finds, it is not a football family. Right. This is a football story, but not a football family at the beginning.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, yeah, his brother actually plays football too, and he's quite good. And at first he's in the shadow of his brother. He grew up so shy and because he had so much self doubt, he sort of was okay being in the background on the football team. He just liked being out there.

[Dylan McCullough]

I mean I was and I still am very to myself, very quiet. And with football is it gave me a release, you know, at that time because there were so many things that maybe I wanted to do or say that I couldn't. But I could do it on the football field. I can take it out there, you know, I can burn that energy. I can be.

[Sarah Spain]

And then from somewhere within himself is this drive to work harder than everyone.

[Dylan McCullough]

I was writing letters to smaller schools and I was pretty much set to go to the Navy, not to play football. I was going to enlist in the Navy, but There that hard work opened up a talent that showed my senior year on a really, really, really high level. And I was.

[Sarah Spain]

He had been both a running back and a defensive back in high school, and there was a great running back ahead of him for most of his career. So he was sort of like, oh, I'm just not good enough. That guy graduates and all of a sudden he gets a lot more touches and is blowing people out of the water as a senior.

[Dylan McCullough]

And I was able to get, you know, some offers.

[Sarah Spain]

Bob Stoops is trying to come after him, Jim Trestle, guys who are now essentially hall of Famers, but were at the beginning of their careers. There's this moment too for him where he's deeply embarrassed by his family's situation. He understands how hard it is for his mom, but he also is so embarrassed to have these big name coaches in his living room where they have a giant orange extension cord snaking out of the house through the window and into their neighbors to borrow electricity because they can't afford it, they don't have hot water. He doesn't have a phone until his senior year, which becomes very important as he's taking recruiting calls that they actually do have a working phone. So he's sitting in class, he looks out the window and he sees this cherry apple red Mercedes.

[Dylan McCullough]

Me and my buddies, we look out the window like, ah. Everybody's pointing like, now look at this car. It was a candy apple red and gold Mercedes. You know, something that we had. You had never seen something like that before especially.

[Sarah Spain]

And a moment later, he gets a pink slip to go to the office. And the guy that came out of the car was actually there to see him.

[Dylan McCullough]

And it was like a movie turned around, like he turned around slow and the camera was on him or whatever. And he looked at me and he said, hey, I'm Sherman Smith, running back coach for Miami University.

[Sarah Spain]

Sherman Smith had played for the Seahawks and stayed after to coach and had just left Seattle for Miami of Ohio to go coach at his alma mater. And he drove out this car that he bought from an up and coming rapper named Sir Mix A Lot.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God, I'm flabbergasted that Sir Mix A Lot is in this story.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, yeah, me too.

[Dylan McCullough]

I like big butts and I cannot lie. You other brothers can't deny.

[Sarah Spain]

But yeah, he goes to the office and meets this guy Sherman and. And he realizes that this aura is coming from someone who had really made it was from Youngstown, was like him, but had gone on to the NFL and now he was talking to a guy that had been a star at the highest level and who believed that he might be that too.

[Pablo Torre]

So the idea that again, you know, Sherman Smith played eight seasons at running back for the Seahawks, was a second round pick in the 76 draft, was the guy with Sir Mix a lot's car, which is really like the first line in any biography we need to give. But like, how does visiting Miami of Ohio even work?

[Sarah Spain]

Well, Sherman drives back to Youngstown to pick them up and then takes them there over Christmas break. And a lot of folks are home, but there's a couple teammates around, introduced him to the rest of the coaching staff, walked him around like he loved the school, the facilities, the campus. And then also the character that Sherman showed. Adele, Dylan's adoptive mom, just a good guy who cared about his education, wanted to be a good role model for him. That really impacted them too. Wanted to make sure he went somewhere, that if he got hurt or if it didn't work out, he still got an education.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. And so positionally, then what is the. What's the job?

[Sarah Spain]

Well, he's going to be a running back and it's in the weeks before he arrives, they tell him, we're actually going to put you at flanker. He's going to get a lot of playing time. And he was in practice one day, they're getting ready for their last kind of scrimmage and I'm watching one of.

[Dylan McCullough]

The backup running backs and he is just doing outstanding and it's against the backups, but I'm just sitting here and like a tear went down my face and I said, man, I'm a running back, I'm a running back, I'm a running back and I want.

[Sarah Spain]

And so we went to meet Ren Sherman Smith and said, I'd rather take a red shirt year and really work to be a running back than be a flanker. So he did that. He actually stepped away from playing time to get to do the thing he wanted to do most, which meant being on the scout team, being a red shirt and having to sit and watch for a whole season.

[Pablo Torre]

And presumably he believes that the coaching staff believes in him. And so Sherman Smith, the coach, his leadership style is best described as what?

[Sarah Spain]

Just a real players coach, an inspiring guy with really high standards, extremely high standards. He would say to every team at the beginning of the season, none of you asked me to be a father, but I'm going to treat you like you're my sons. He cared as much about, how do I make These players full human beings that are going to be successful in life as he did about the football side.

[Sherman Smith]

All of which is to say that for Dylan McCullough, who grew up searching for a father figure and never got one, you can guess why this style of coaching felt like more than a client cliche.

[Sarah Spain]

And so, even though Dylan is mostly working with assistants, because the starters are the ones who get most of the time with the running backs coach and the head coach, he still goes after practice and spends a lot of time just connecting with Sherman and really asking.

[Sherman Smith]

Him for advice before Dylan ever gets to take a single snap. At Miami of Ohio, the same thing that happened with Dylan's biological father and Dylan's adoptive radio DJ fan father proceeds to happen once again with his new mentor in college. Sherman Smith leaves. Because not long after recruiting Dylan McCullough to Miami of Ohio, Sherman himself got recruited by the University of Illinois, where he would become an assistant coach at a way bigger program in the Big Ten.

[Sarah Spain]

And he doesn't want to go at first, but the rest of the coaching staff says, like, this is a great opportunity, you gotta go.

[Sherman Smith]

And so, as Sherman Smith goes a different way, eventually making it all the way up to the coaching staff of Pete Carroll's Seattle Seahawks, his old team, Dylan McCullough understands, he does, why his new mentor had to go. And while the two of them will stay in touch from afar, Dylan finds himself again back on his own, fighting to push ahead by himself one yard at a time. Daugherty off the McCullough, he comes to the near side. He's at the 35, 30 and out.

[Sarah Spain]

Of bounds inside the 15 yard line.

[Dylan McCullough]

He might break that Miami record today if they keep giving him the ball.

[Sherman Smith]

And that is ultimately how it happened, by the way. By his senior year of college. Skipping ahead now to 2005, Dylan McCullough would in fact break that Miami record, the school's all time rushing record. After leading the team in rushing for four straight seasons, his whole bet had paid off. But it also imprinted permanent expectations of a different kind.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, everyone was convinced he was getting drafted. This was a guy whose numbers were up there with the top running back prospects. And he was sitting with his agent on draft night watching, expecting to be called, you know, maybe third or fourth round.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, and you look at the statistics, I mean, hard to do better than that. And so where does he get drafted.

[Sarah Spain]

Is the Cincinnati Bengals call him early in the draft and they're like, hey man, you excited? He's like, yeah. And they're like, all Right. We're thinking about you. He's like, whoa, okay. He doesn't get drafted. A couple teams call right when the draft ends and, you know, extend the training camp offers. He ends up with the Bengals. It is the best situation because of their depth chart. He is going to make the surprise move of an undrafted guy making that roster. He's leading the NFL in preseason rushing yards.

[Dylan McCullough]

And then with two minutes left in our final preseason game of that, you know, my work a year, my knee get blown out and several, like, all the ligaments get blown up, every kind.

[Sarah Spain]

Of damage, you know, compound fracture, mclac, all that stuff. And he, over the next couple years, really puts his time into trying to make it back to the NFL, then the cfl, and at one point even gives a little time to the xfl.

[Dylan McCullough]

And then I just stopped playing because I kept on saying, people say I can't do this. It was always for me, proving people wrong, proving people wrong. And nobody would think I can come back after three knee surgeries. And I did. But at that point, I said, you know what? It's time for me to transition to something different.

[Sarah Spain]

He really wanted to try to make it work as a player, but ultimately, this guy just keeps getting handed a tough deal and finding a way through it, finding resilience. And he actually wanted to get into education to help kids who had come up in tough times like he did. So while he's trying to make it in football, he's working his way at residential centers for at risk youth. Then he goes into teaching and he's trying to help kids, and then he becomes a principal. So, like all these ways, he's trying to learn how to be an impactful male figure in the lives of young people, especially those who have tough childhoods. And football starts sneaking its way and everybody hears that he was the big football player. So he starts coaching, and he realizes he can use football to uplift kids and make it even more compelling for them to want to stay in school and learn these lessons by using this sport that he loves.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's just hard, Sarah, to escape this notion that there's a gravitational pull on D. He tries to leave Youngstown, Ohio, makes it out because Sherman Smith ends up convincing him that Miami of Ohio is the place where Youngstown, Ohio, kids can use it as a springboard to go to the NFL. But then the NFL chews him up, spits him out, and he tries to then fight what seems like destiny at this point, because where does he. Where does he wind up after trying to Be an educator outside of the football field.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, football pulls him back. And of course he ends up at Miami of Ohio is where he gets his first college coaching gig. And he's not there for too long. He has pretty immediate success, gets recruited to go coach at Indiana, has success there, helps a couple running backs to the NFL and he gets nominated for coach of the year honors. And he starts doing some coaching internships in the NFL and really starts to set his sights on some bigger programs and the opportunities at the pro level. He ends up doing one of his coaching internships actually with the Seattle Seahawks, which is where coach Sherman Smith was coaching under Pete Carroll. And he gets a chance to really use his skill set in some of the other internships they kind of just had him watch. But coach Sherman Smith puts him right in there. And he starts to recognize pretty immediately D does that his coaching style is really similar to his old coach. He really picked up a lot of messages from him as I'm going to be a role model and a leader. I'm going to treat these guys like full human beings. I'm not trying to scare them into anything. I'm going to give them respect and they're going to give me respect. In turn, the guys think that he's being a giant kiss ass, that he's just really trying to impress everyone and show them that he's deserving of a spot in the NFL. And they're making fun of him for copying everything Sherman does. You walk like him, you talk like him, you want to be him. And he kind of is at first a little embarrassed. And then he realizes, I don't care if they know that this is how bad I want it. And he literally starts changing his passwords to I will coach in the NFL. He's trying to like manifest it that hard.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, hold on. So as Dielind is like, there's a little swim fan in this, admittedly a little swim fanning of the National Football League. But this coaching internship with the NFL, with the Seahawks, then serves to get him where as his next stop in.

[Sarah Spain]

College, USC comes calling. One of the greatest programs in all of college football history. So he's on a plane with his family, he's got kids at this point, and ends up in Southern California. And he is getting some major side eye when he arrives. He's got some very unique coaching styles. He likes to fill footballs with water to make them really heavy and harder to hold. And then when you get back to the normal football, you're clenching it tighter. He's got a. A big pylon with a stick, and he's jabbing guys as they're trying to run by to poke the ball out to get them to practice, holding on. And that running back's crew is ready to go. And he has yet another really successful squad handing it off to Jones.

[Dylan McCullough]

Watch out, Ronald Jones.

[Pablo Torre]

All of which is to say that.

[Sherman Smith]

There is now real pride in D's gravitational field at this point. D has already interned for Pete Carroll with the Seahawks, where his old mentor, Sherman Smith was on staff and eager to reunite with them before Sherman himself retired from coaching permanently, imprinting Dylan's speeches, by the way, with Sherman's lessons about responsibility. And now D found himself responsible for the running backs at Pete Carroll's old employer, the University of Southern California, at age 44, not to mention his own biological kids.

[Sarah Spain]

And he realizes there's still a part of him that very much wants to know who he is. And he starts looking on websites and sort of isn't fully committed. And then there's a moment that his mom calls him where the lawyer that helped her facilitate his adoption has passed away, and she can get a box of records from his office.

[Sherman Smith]

And Dyland, you should know, had zero idea that this box even existed. And his adoptive mother, at this moment, proceeds to tell him about some other things inside this box that dyland, at age 44, did not know.

[Sarah Spain]

Things like the orphanage where you were adopted. And he's like, wait, an orphanage?

[Sherman Smith]

But the orphanage was just the beginning.

[Sarah Spain]

She reveals his name was originally John. And he said, why? Why John? She said, I don't know. It's maybe religious or something. Who knows?

[Sherman Smith]

And pretty soon, it becomes apparent that the only people who could actually answer these questions with any clarity were the parents that Dyland did not know. And so Dyland McCullough resolves to find out.

[Sarah Spain]

And so first he starts looking in Ohio and ultimately is able to get the call back that they found his papers. But the woman on the other end says, I can't tell you them. I can't send them to you. And he says, what do you mean? And he realizes that she's holding papers for a different state. You remember I said, his mom said, pittsburgh. That's where we went to pick up Dylan when we adopted him. So even though he grew up in Ohio, he was actually born and adopted in Pennsylvania, and the laws were different in that state.

[Sherman Smith]

But then Dillon discovers something crucial.

[Pablo Torre]

While he was busy coaching running backs.

[Sherman Smith]

Lawmakers in Pennsylvania, it turns out, had finally pushed a thing called HB162 through their legislature. And this was a long, arduous process, but they pushed forward one yard at a time.

[Unknown Guest]

Thank you very much. As I'm sure everyone's aware, today we'll be holding a discussion about a bill intended to give adoptees access to their original birth records here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The legislation that we're here to discuss is House Bill 162, which has been introduced by the good gentleman from Centre County, Representative Kerry Benninghoff.

[Sherman Smith]

And in fairness to Dealand I also had zero idea that adopted children in various states in America prior to HB162 and various state bills like it were not allowed to view their own birth record. That this was in fact illegal until recently. In fact, the only reason I found out about it at all was from talking to Dyland and Sarah and researching this story ourselves. So now just try to imagine how Dylan McCullough felt as he sat there waiting at age 44.

[Dylan McCullough]

November 2017. I'm sitting in my office obviously at USC, and I just said, man, I wonder what's going on with this adoption paperwork. It just hit me that day. And then when I got home, I'm just going through the mail and it was. And it was. I got it right here. It was there.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, first he is sort of surprised at how thin the envelope is and figures it must be something telling him they couldn't find it. And imagine getting the mail and it's like, you know, 10% off at bed Bath and Beyond. And then your birth certificate, like that's how unassuming this letter was.

[Dylan McCullough]

So the top of it, it says non certified. I mean, non certified copy of original birth record. Date of birth, December 1, 1972. It has the date that it was issued in November 2017. And then it says, name given at birth, John Kenneth Briggs. Sex male. Place of birth, Allegheny County Parent, Carol Denise Briggs, age 16.

[Sarah Spain]

So they all start googling. He plugs in Carol D. Briggs in a couple places and ends up finding her, sends her a message on Facebook and essentially just says, did you have a baby that you gave up for adoption in Pennsylvania in 1971?

[Dylan McCullough]

I got a message on my phone saying message red. So my heart was like, oh, shoot. Start beating like, oh, I'm beating crazy.

[Sarah Spain]

And at first she accepts the message but doesn't answer. And then he sends a follow up question mark and she messaged back, yes.

[Dylan McCullough]

So I was in a meeting at that time and I got up and walked out of the meeting. So I said, what did you name the baby. And she said john and she spelled it the exact same way it is on here. And the water work started at that point.

[Sarah Spain]

So she had been a 16 year old honor student, had had an oopsie and her family sent her off to an orphanage home for mothers and girls in Pennsylvania to have the baby in private, be pregnant in private, and then go back to school with no one the wiser. She didn't tell anyone but her parents and her one cousin. She didn't even tell the dad because he was already off to college and she felt responsible.

[Dylan McCullough]

I said, where are you? She said, youngstown. I told her where I lost her. I was living in Youngstown. You know, come to find out we were only 10 minutes from each other.

[Sarah Spain]

Probably passed him in the aisles at the grocery store. They were in the exact same place. And it just happened to be that the family that adopted him out of Pennsylvania was a family that lived in Youngstown.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. This is where I just commend Dylan the reporter. By the way, Sarah, like you're a good journalist like Dylan, just like he found out. Dylan finds out is an impressive, an impressive feat and one, by the way, that I imagine. I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes for a second because this is overwhelming. I must imagine on some level to, to know that his mom was actually around very nearby this whole time.

[Sarah Spain]

At first he thinks, well, wait, if you're in Youngstown, do I have siblings? Like I might know them, right? If you, if you had other kids, I might have grown up with them. Who else in my family might I have known? And she did not get married, she didn't have any other kids, and she'd been looking for him for years. And it's just really heartwarming how much joy she felt and in not only finding out he was okay and successful, but now she has a son and grandkids and this extended family.

[Pablo Torre]

And the logical next question, obviously, as he continues to find out, is, all right, who's, who's my birth dad?

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah. He says, it doesn't list a father on my birth certificate. And he asks her, do you know who my father is?

[Dylan McCullough]

And she said, your dad is a man by the name of Sherman Smith. When she said that, I was like, my mind was blown.

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[Sarah Spain]

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[Pablo Torre]

It'S just the sort of twist you dream of, you know, it's just jealousy is what I feel. I feel jealousy, I feel awe. I feel like I'm watching a weird version of the Sixth Sense in which, you know, Dylan has been seeing his dad the whole time actually, and that's wild.

[Dylan McCullough]

Your dad is a man by the name of Sherman Smith. And like I said, when she said that, I was like, my mind was blown. And she said like, I was like, you could hear. She could obviously hear me kind of choke up and get emotional. She said, well, what's wrong? I said, oh, I know him. He recruited me. He was my coach and he's been my mentor for the last 20, whatever years. 20 plus years.

[Pablo Torre]

How does Dylan then tell Sherman what he has found out?

[Sarah Spain]

Right. He's nervous about it and isn't sure what to say. But he asks his birth mom Carol if he can be the one to tell him.

[Dylan McCullough]

So I reached out to him, I sent him a text and I said, hey, Coach, I need to talk to you about something.

[Sarah Spain]

45 years later, he's going to get a phone call from someone who says I'm your son that he knows.

[Dylan McCullough]

I just kind of jumped right into it. I said, hey, what's going on, coach? Hey, what's going on? I said, you know I'm adopted. Yeah, I know you're adopted. I said, I found my biological mom. So my dad is, you know, really strong in his faith. He was, oh man, he was your man. You know, God is good, man. That's a blessing. All these different things like that. And I said, well, a little bit more. He said, what's that? And I just kind of ran straight through it. I said, her name is Carol Briggs. And when I asked her who was my dad, she said, you. I just ran straight, just like that. And it was silent on the other hand. So I'm excited. He's blown away. And then he, maybe in a couple seconds, maybe less than a minute later, he said, leland, I need to get off the phone. I need to process this.

[Sarah Spain]

He's spent his entire life wondering about his birth parents. But For Sherman, it's 0 to 45 year old son with no warning. He hasn't been looking for that. He has a happy wife and family and kids, but he almost doesn't want to imagine that he could be the kind of person who made a choice that resulted in other people having to be responsible. He had always told his players, there's no such thing as irresponsibility. When you're irresponsible, someone else becomes responsible for what you didn't do. He has led a life leading young men and telling them how to be. And then he recognizes that he might not have been the guy he always thought he was. And so at first, he's not overjoyed the way Dylan would hope. He needs some time.

[Dylan McCullough]

I initially took that as a blow, but then I quickly flipped because he sent me a text here a little bit later on, and he said, hey, man, Carol knew she had a baby. You knew you had parents out there. I knew nothing.

[Sarah Spain]

And then he starts thinking about how the story isn't his, it's Dylan's. How Dylan has spent his whole life looking for this piece of himself and how he needed to stop centering himself and consider what it meant to Dylan to find him and really consider that it could be true. They get a paternity test. It's 99.9999999%. And as he's waiting for those results, he realizes that he will in fact be very sad if he is not his father. By this point, he's come around to the idea that they've had this connection, that this story is almost faded.

[Pablo Torre]

How long does it take for Sherman Smith the coach to become Sherman Smith the dad? How does. How does the language around that change, given their relationship has been long and intimate, but in this, again, non biological.

[Sarah Spain]

Way, it isn't crystallized until they see each other in person for the first time. After knowing their connection as father son, Dylan's actually got recruiting trips that allow him to get near Tennessee and where Sherman lives in retirement and goes there for the very first time to see his dad as his dad. There's this just incredible moment and I cry every time I think about it. I cried writing it. I cried the first time Dylan said it. But Dylan goes to see him for the first time in person after they know of their connection as father son. And he's nervous and sitting in the car. And Sherman looks out the window and sees him sitting and he's like, oh, this cat's nervous. Like he's just sitting out in his car, not coming up. Even though we've known each other for years. And when Dylan Gets to the doorstep.

[Dylan McCullough]

I get up on the porch and he opens the door. He just said, my son. And it was like, oh, the tears start rolling again. Because I'd never been referred to as somebody's son. He embraced me fully four arms wide open and said, my son. And he embraced me. And it was, here we go.

[Sarah Spain]

His adoptive dad left when he's 2. He hasn't had a dad since. And he. He didn't realize how much he was carrying feelings of, am I enough? Am I worthy? Does someone want to claim me? And for this man, this ideal of a person, to embrace him and call him his son, he just sort of let his inner child release and cry and be embraced by this man.

[Pablo Torre]

And so now we're in the present, Sarah. And they have this relationship. They have talked to you about it. You're updating your reporting. What.

[Sherman Smith]

What's it been like.

[Pablo Torre]

What's it been like since they got to have that, I mean, truly cinematic level of. Of embrace?

[Sarah Spain]

It's been joyful mostly, and also complicated. And for me, doing the story the first time, we did a lot of work on it, but nothing like writing a book. So the hours and hours of interviews, all the people I talk to, all the detail I unravel, and I mean, there's a twist with his brother that I didn't know the first time I reported it that I think is day one stuff. If I was talking to someone and his brother didn't think it was day one stuff. So I didn't find out till I start writing the book that there's a whole nother parental twist that goes on in his family even before what happens with his dad. And so you have to read the book for that. There's a tease that we're not giving away in this interview. But yeah, as I'm doing more of these interviews and I'm talking to everyone in the family, I am working so hard to understand each perspective. You've got an adoptive mom in Adele who sacrificed so much to raise these two boys as a single mom, thinking that she was gonna have this partner in AC the radio dj, and instead she's alone, post industrial collapse, not a lot of money, and they turn out so well. They become these successful young men. And then here come these birth parents who have a lot of judgment at first about what he went through as a kid. They wanted the best for him. Both Sherman, as someone who cared about him and had met him as a young man, and then Carol, who gave him away with the expectation he would end up In a two family home, everything would be this idyllic setting. You imagine an adoptive family that really wants a baby and can't have one of their own. And instead he has this really tough childhood. And so it's almost a role reversal of a lot of adoption stories you hear, right, where the birth parents are struggling or fighting something, they give up a baby and here come the saviors to fix everything. And instead you've got these two incredible, well adjusted, successful adults looking at this woman who did her very best but still struggled at times. And so to really understand, like what he got from Adele, his adoptive mom, and then what almost certainly came to him through DNA, how similar he is to Sherman, even though they didn't meet until he was 17 years old and even though he was in his life as a mentor, but not all the time, like how he became, I mean, the same exact life.

[Dylan McCullough]

It's surreal. I mean, it really is. We both from Youngstown, we both went to Miami, we both go into the hall of Fame at Miami, we both go and play pro ball. We both are careers in because of knee injuries. Both of us right after playing football, go into education. Both of our first jobs in college was at Miami. Our next job was both in the.

[Sarah Spain]

Big Ten, won a Super bowl, lost a Super Bowl. Both of them to Tom Brady, had sons, son goes to Miami of Ohio, plays defensive back. Like is a teacher. Like, it's just, it's remarkable.

[Pablo Torre]

At the center of that Venn diagram, along all of these like overlapping circles is at least 1d in this case Pete Carroll, who happens to be the guy who employed both of these men.

[Sherman Smith]

As coaches in the NFL.

[Pablo Torre]

Can you catch us up to just the unending gravitational field around D. McCullough and his life?

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, I mean, he just took a job with the Raiders and he is now coaching under the boy wonder who I guess never ages and retires, Pete Carroll, who could be both the head coach of his dad as a running backs coach and now the head coach of, of dealing with the Raiders.

[Sherman Smith]

And it is funny to hear Dylan.

[Pablo Torre]

Tell us about what Pete Carroll had detected back when Dylan was an intern with the Seahawks and Sherman Smith was a coach on the staff.

[Sherman Smith]

Because Pete Carroll kind of sniffed this.

[Pablo Torre]

Out before, you know, the DNA test did.

[Dylan McCullough]

Like in the beginning, one of the staff meetings, Coach Carroll, you know, he going through his thing and he just looked down, he said, hey, you know what, something's going on here. He said, we're sitting there watching you two guys looking across the field at you guys working with the running backs. You guys walk the same point, the same talk the same. He said, it's just crazy. And we just laughed.

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[Sarah Spain]

And so understanding that we are both a product of what made us and also of everything around us also implies choice, which is like the through line of this book is, yes, you are handed certain genes, yes, you are handed certain family, certain circumstances. But your choice at every turn impacts whether you make it out, whether you make it right, whether you make it good, whether, like Dylan, you decide to end a bunch of cycles that you don't think serve you or your kids. I don't want to be a father who abandons his family. I don't want to be abusive. I don't want to be somebody who doesn't stick around. I want to be the opposite of what I saw. And I think especially with adoption, that's very poignant because with adoption it's, I could be anyone. I could live anywhere. I could be named anything. Like, instead, he said, at every turn, I'm in charge and this is my choice.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, that's the thing I realize about the way I've been hearing this story up till really now, which is I thought that this was a story about a guy sucked into a gravitational field beyond his control. And then you realize that actually he is the one making these calls himself. And part of what it is to live in this profoundly seemingly scripted, unscripted story is that the choices he makes are the ones that bring him back to who he is.

[Sarah Spain]

We always say you don't get to choose your family. And he did.

[Dylan McCullough]

God.

[Pablo Torre]

Put that in the trailer. Put that in the trailer for the movie. Sarah, I mean, is it hard to not think about the movie? I mean, look, we talked about managing the surprise in the reveal.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, and here's your final fun fact. Two of the executive producers on the film we are planning to make but have not yet signed a studio to are Russell Wilson and Ciara. Just like Sir Mix a lot. I'm just dropping that in, I was gonna say. And guess what? The potential for this film is unliimited.

[Sherman Smith]

Oh my God.

[Pablo Torre]

Does Sir Mix A Lot know this story? Does he know what you're up to?

[Sarah Spain]

Sarah Gosh, he does know what I'm up to. He used to be a regular listener to Spain and Fitz on ESPN Radio.

[Sherman Smith]

So this is where I need to report that I have now spent a chunk of my Memorial Day weekend reaching out to Sir Mixalot for comment comment on whether he does in fact know what Sarah Spain is up to lately with this book, with this story. And also whether Sir Mixalot is aware that former NFL coach Sherman Smith bought his candy apple red and gold Mercedes and then used it to recruit a running back that Sherman Smith would only realize decades later was actually his baby. A baby he didn't know about, but a baby he got back. I mean, I just wanna let that one sit for a second.

[Sarah Spain]

I remember that I posted about the car and it being Sir Mix A Lot's on Twitter and tagged him. I don't think he responded though. I remember the last exchange I had with Sir Mix A Lot was was not surprisingly about butts.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm searching for this and February 3, 2020 Sarah Spain don't know what prompted it. Quote, Are we talking butts today? Question mark I'm in. And you replied via quote tweet we always know we can count on you. Yeah, at the real Mix winking emoji.

[Sherman Smith]

But I don't know if that's true anymore, honestly, because what I'm also here to report is that Sir Mixalot has.

[Pablo Torre]

Not yet gotten back to me.

[Sherman Smith]

I sent him and his manager a whole bunch of texts over the weekend. I even dialed his hotline per what I thought were very clear instructions and I got nothing. And so Sir Mix a lot near the end here. If you are listening, sir, we have our own hotline actually that we would like you to call. So please dial the PTFO tip hotline at 51385 Pablo. That is 51385 Pablo. A very real number you can call and please do get back to us.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been a lot to find out today. Sarah. I have a feeling that that is not in the book, that exchange.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes, that Twitter exchange is not in the book, but lots of other good stuff is. So you know, read it, buy it, order it, tell your friends.

[Pablo Torre]

Sarah, thank you for making the choice to do this with me. It's been a real pleasure.

[Sarah Spain]

Thanks for having me.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk.

[Sherman Smith]

To you next time.