PTFO - Share & Rage & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard

Summary

Summary of "PTFO - Share & Rage & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
• Hosts: Dan Le Batard, Stugotz
• Episode: PTFO - Share & Rage & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard
• Release Date: November 22, 2024
• Description: Filmed from the Elser Hotel in Downtown Miami, Dan Le Batard and Stugotz delve into sports, pop culture, and various other topics, featuring original segments like the daily “Local Hour” focusing on South Florida.

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1. Road Rage: Personal Stories and Reflections

Timestamp: 01:07 – 02:38

The episode kicks off with Dan Le Batard sharing a personal incident of road rage that led to a tense altercation. He recounts a moment where a fellow driver displayed aggressive behavior, prompting him to react impulsively:

• Dan Le Batard: “I leap from the car and scare my wife. And it's dumb because people here are armed.” (01:50)

Pablo Torre and Mina Kimes engage in a discussion about the lack of virtual outlets for expressing anger, suggesting that public interactions like driving can amplify feelings of impotence and frustration.

• Mina Kimes: “It’s literally only in real life, right? There are so few places like this now in our lives where there’s no way for someone to express their anger virtually.” (02:17)

Dan reflects on the consequences of his actions, emphasizing the importance of community and self-control in high-stress situations.

2. The Rise of Blue Sky: An Alternative Social Media Platform

Timestamp: 05:25 – 21:31

Mina Kimes introduces the main topic of the episode: the exponential growth of Blue Sky, an alternative to Twitter initiated by Jack Dorsey. She highlights Blue Sky's user-friendly interface and robust content moderation tools as key differentiators:

• Mina Kimes: “The biggest difference really is the way it actually allows you to moderate content... It’s not just like an echo chamber.” (07:23)

Pablo Torre delves into the corporate structure of Blue Sky, explaining its transition to a public benefit corporation, which prioritizes usability over profit. He underscores Blue Sky's unique stance against using user data for generative AI:

• Mina Kimes: “They have already come out and said we will not allow our data, anything you post here to be used for generative AI.” (08:39)

Dan shares his limited experience with Blue Sky, humorously addressing outdated perceptions:

• Dan Le Batard: “You guys are using old information on me. I now have a Metal Arc media email address.” (09:31)

The hosts engage in a debate about the effectiveness of traditional social media platforms versus newer alternatives. Mina emphasizes the importance of constructive community interactions, while Dan stresses the loss of genuine communication in favor of performative engagements.

• Dan Le Batard: “I believe that... the acid is so poisonous that I can’t even help but notice...” (14:37)

3. Social Media, Echo Chambers, and the Quest for Community

Timestamp: 16:08 – 28:20

The discussion evolves into a broader critique of social media's impact on community and discourse. Mina Kimes argues that platforms like Twitter have become breeding grounds for toxicity rather than meaningful conversation:

• Mina Kimes: “The reason why the echo chamber critique rings false to me is... someone literally saying toxic, foul things to me.” (09:31)

Dan counters by highlighting the challenges of balancing constructive criticism with harmful interactions, advocating for spaces that foster genuine community without the constant barrage of negativity.

• Dan Le Batard: “Why would I choose to be around that? Why would I choose to spend time with something that seems to be designed to get into... a soft space of mine...” (14:37)

Pablo adds that the commercialization and sensationalism inherent in social media platforms exacerbate these issues, making it difficult to discern authentic discourse from engagement-driven content.

4. Sports Media Negativity and LeBron James' Social Media Exodus

Timestamp: 23:02 – 32:32

The conversation shifts to the realm of sports media, focusing on LeBron James' decision to step back from social media amid increasing negative coverage. Mina Kimes questions whether sports media has inherently become more toxic or if social media amplifies existing issues:

• Mina Kimes: “It's not political at all, which is the engagement farming... It is all either rage bait, engagement bait, misinformation.” (18:14)

Dan postulates that sports radio and digital media prioritize blame over celebration, contributing to a coarse environment that undermines athlete morale:

• Dan Le Batard: “I believe sports radio began this before social media... a lot of coverage is about blame instead of celebration of excellence.” (25:57)

Pablo challenges the feasibility of isolating the impact of the internet from traditional media influences, suggesting that inherent criticism in sports cannot be eradicated.

5. The Dull Men's Club: Embracing "Uninteresting" Interests

Timestamp: 35:59 – 47:56

Mina introduces the "Dull Men's Club," a Facebook group where members share mundane and unexciting aspects of their lives, in contrast to the performative and sensational content prevalent on other social media platforms.

• Mina Kimes: “The Dull Men's Club is like, hey, here’s some photos of the lentils that I was making... I bring this to you guys because I think I am about to join the Dull Men’s Club.” (34:32)

The hosts engage in playful banter, sharing their own "dull" activities such as plant care, stretching, and playing simple games like Ms. Pac-Man. They explore the concept of what qualifies as "dull" in an age where every hobby can find its niche audience.

• Pablo Torre: “I have over 35 plants... I can absolutely make sure a pothos can stretch its vines over all sorts of shelves in my apartment.” (41:03)

Mina reflects on the blurred lines between what is considered interesting versus mundane, emphasizing that the internet has expanded the definition of hobbies to include virtually anything:

• Mina Kimes: “I’ve lost sense of what qualifies as interesting because there’s an audience for everything these days.” (37:06)

6. Conclusion: Lessons Learned and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 47:01 – End

As the episode wraps up, each host shares what they've learned from the discussions:

• Mina Kimes: “I found out that Dan apparently dressed like Boss Hogg as a young reporter... I think I have qualifications for the Dull Men’s Club.” (35:59)

• Pablo Torre: “I found out that everything that Dan is now is the product of a hard pendulum swing directly away from what he initially tried to be.” (47:21)

Dan concludes by highlighting the value of authentic community and the importance of balancing constructive criticism with personal well-being:

• Dan Le Batard: “I will tell you, as a longtime newspaper columnist... it's more about wanting to be around a group of people that aren't perpetually looking for the way to make jokes at your expense.” (12:04)

The hosts encourage listeners to reflect on their own social media usage and the nature of their online interactions, advocating for spaces that foster genuine connections over superficial engagements.

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Le Batard (01:16): “...the last words I heard set me off. And the way rage works is you don't do smart things or do much thinking.”
• Mina Kimes (08:39): “Unlike every other social media platform right now, they have already come out and said we will not allow our data anything you post here to be used for generative AI.”
• Pablo Torre (17:12): “What Mina is saying... is that she would like every driver in America to post their username on their window so she can get in their mentions and dunk on them.”
• Dan Le Batard (25:57): “I believe a lot of coverage is about blame instead of celebration of excellence because it's a lot easier.”
• Mina Kimes (35:59): “I think I am about to join the Dull Men’s Club. I think I have qualifications.”

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Conclusion: This episode of "The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz" offers a deep dive into the complexities of modern social media, the quest for authentic community, and the challenges within sports media. Through personal anecdotes and thoughtful discussions, the hosts explore the balance between online engagement and meaningful interactions, advocating for spaces that prioritize genuine connections over performative displays.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Dan Le Batard]

Did we sound extra? Woke in whimpering about a need for community. This is not, not, not an echo chamber.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[Mina Kimes]

You're listening to DraftKings Network.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

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[Mina Kimes]

How many get 30.

[Pablo Torre]

30 bid to get 30.

[Mina Kimes]

Get 20.

[Dan Le Batard]

20, 20. Better to get 20.

[Pablo Torre]

20.

[Mina Kimes]

15. 15. 15.

[Pablo Torre]

Just 15 bucks a month. So give it a [e-mail] switch.

[Mina Kimes]

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[Pablo Torre]

Dan has stories of great road rage that he has felt himself personally that have maybe humiliated him in front of loved ones.

[Dan Le Batard]

Recently, my wife. And when I say recently, I'm going to say a year ago, my wife had to sort or try to hold unsuccessfully me, my seatbelt and my chest back because after shooting me a bird, somebody also started talking to me. And this is not safe for me to do. It's not wise, it's not smart. But the last words I heard set me off. And the way rage works is you don't do smart things or do much thinking.

[Mina Kimes]

What'd you do?

[Dan Le Batard]

I leap from the car and scare my wife. And it's dumb because people here are armed.

[Pablo Torre]

You tried to get out of the. That was an actual.

[Dan Le Batard]

I did get. I did get out of the car. I did get out of the car.

[Mina Kimes]

No, got out of the car.

[Pablo Torre]

If you're out. If you're out there, send it in. Send it in to our show. We want the tape of this. That's. That is. Actually, I'm glad that. I'm so glad Valerie was there. Jesus, man.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, I. It went okay. I'm still here. And it's. I'm. And I've learned. I've learned my lesson. And the person scampered off because I was enraged.

[Pablo Torre]

You were charging wildebeest and you effectively intimidated them.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's right. That's right. That's what happened. Well, I was enraged. I was legitimately enraged.

[Mina Kimes]

So my theory is it's one of the very few spaces right now in public life where the customer doesn't have recourse, where if you're mad, you can't log on and leave an angry review you can't find someone's social media and spit vitriol at them. It's literally only irl, right? There's so few places like this now in our lives where there's no way for someone to express their anger virtually. So if you're in a car and something happens and maybe a guy cuts you off or somebody doesn't go at a green light, I suspect there's like, increased anger because of the sense of impotence you feel relative to other situations.

[Pablo Torre]

What Mina is saying, which is a through line I think that'll follow us through today's episode, is that she would like every driver in America to post their username on their window so she can get in their mentions and dunk on them.

[Mina Kimes]

Personally, I don't have road rage. I'm trying to explain what I think is happening. It's just a theory. I don't know. What do you think, Dan?

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm surprised that you guys are surprised, though, that I am capable of a rage that would not be able to be held back by my wife's delicate and modelesque hand. I'm surprised that you guys didn't think that. You guys thought I was just going to, like, fake my anger, that I wanted to be seen by my wife this way and that she would be able to successfully hold me back with just her hand.

[Pablo Torre]

My thing with you is that so much of our interactions on this show and yours are just us making fun of you. So the idea of there actually being a straw that breaks the hippo's back, I'm like, what was it? And it turns out you don't even know. You didn't even know.

[Dan Le Batard]

Is it, well, is it hippo or is it wildebeest? Because what I'm about to do, if you were here, I'm feeling helpless because right now I want to physically attack you.

[Mina Kimes]

Hippos are, like the most aggressive animals. Quietly amongst. Nobody talks about this because they're like, oh, hungry, hungry hippos. They're so cute. They're so fun. They look so funny. Those. You do not want to encounter a wild hippo.

[Pablo Torre]

They are hungry, hungry for blood.

[Dan Le Batard]

They will kill you. And I would, at this point, like to beat Pablo while swinging Mina by her ankles. Just.

[Pablo Torre]

Mita, do you want to begin the actual show with the topic that you brought us that you wanted to share and tell about?

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, my topic is the Rise of Blue Sky. There's an article in New York Times about it. There's been articles all over the place about this app, Blue sky, which was created I think a few years ago, right, as an alternative to Twitter, around the time that Elon Musk took over, but didn't really catch fire until this past week around the election. I mean, the daily activity was very low, way behind Threads, which is the other, the meta owned alternative. And it has actually spiked and exceeded it, which is incredible given how far ahead Threads was in terms of the daily users. It's up to 20 million users, over 20 million now. So exponential growth for an app that is currently run by like 20 people. For those who aren't on it and who are on Twitter, pardon me, it is basically the same in terms of the interface. It looks the same, it feels the same. The biggest difference really is the way it actually allows you to moderate content. It provides much more aggressive blocking features, provides tools you can use to just not see certain corners of the Internet. It allows the reports of harassment actually work on Blue sky. And that seems to be a big part of the appeal. I know it's a big part of the appeal for me personally, especially over the last week, I think as what you know, the harassment and aspect on Twitter has been escalating for a while now. But last week did feel like a turning point. So there's that. There's also a lot of skepticism. Nobody wants to be on a zillion apps, everybody's on Twitter. So people don't actually want to leave. People in media might not want to leave for career reasons. I'm curious about all of your guys thoughts about this and just about kind of whether or not you even. I know Dan and Pablo have different feelings about this, whether you even feel like you want a place to engage and post and do all of these things.

[Pablo Torre]

So Dan, for me, I tend to just see what Mina's doing and I'm like, I guess it's time to join Blue Sky. When she joined I was like, I guess the person who thinks most rigorously about social media has done this. I should probably just follow her. And so I did. And it is hard to shake the feeling that you're now watching a spring football league. Yeah, like I guess I'm on the XFL of Twitter now. I'm on there. And I've been also curious like what am I on? And so just a couple of the background facts here because I don't know if you know this. I didn't know this until I started googling this. Mina referred to this sort of like odd ownership group. Blue sky originally was started by Jack Dorsey, who was the guy behind Twitter. At first he wanted to be decentralized and then of course he is no longer part of this team. He left in May 2024 and now it is a US public benefit corporation and it's the thing that like Patagonia is and all Birds and Warby Parker. These corporations that apparently have some sort of legal protection under the guise of, I guess it's now colloquially known as conscious capitalism, they have protection from being sued or I guess held to account by their own shareholders for not maximizing shareholder value.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. Which is really interesting. Right. Because as we look at this platform and ask what is the potential, if I'm joining, will it change? Is it worth investing my time? The corporate structure, which Papa, you explained perfectly there, gives you a roadmap, which is to say it's. It makes it so that this company, this app, this social media platform is far less likely to go down a road where they are making profit driven decisions at the expense of usability. But one thing that caught my eye, unlike every other social media platform right now, they have already come out and said we will not allow our data, anything you post here to be used for generative AI. That's very unique and unusual and would not be happening, I believe, without the explicit the corporate mandate that you just described.

[Dan Le Batard]

There are a couple of things here that I wanted to discuss with you guys because in the reading material that I was doing, I did get on at your behest. Oh, I have not used it very much, but it looks and feels very similar to Twitter. You seemed very excited that I got on there.

[Pablo Torre]

You're on aol. I don't ever know what you may or may not ever try when it comes to new Internet technology.

[Dan Le Batard]

You guys are using old information on me. I now have metal Arc media email address. But that's okay. You've properly shamed me. I am no longer an AOL person. But thanks for bringing it up yet again.

[Mina Kimes]

I appreciate it forever.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, thank you. I appreciate the hippo and the wildebeest. Appreciates all the kind words that he's gotten so far as you continue to enrage him. One of the things that I read that I don't know if it's true or not is the headline, the age of social media is ending. Which I wanted to explore with you because I have seen the fleeing from Tor. It is a thing that is actually happening now and the entirety of my life. I've been pretty used to public criticism going back to a day when people had to put a stamp on and write a letter to a newspaper and go through a great deal of effort to insult you and be bothered by your opinion. But this is being viewed as a place where you are safe as a liberal, to be free from poisonous, acidic, hostile, bullying criticism. And that is viewed as a weakness to seek community that is a little bit kinder. Because I do believe in the social media age, one of the things that's been lost is just community, just in general. People are on their devices so much that I think, I don't think I have this true for all of America. But in the bigger cities, it does seem like there are fewer kids playing with other kids in the street. And in my own group of people here, our family, our bubble, this is not, not, not an echo chamber, our safe little bubble here. These guys have told me that their kids don't play in the streets and they don't know their neighbors. So is there anything wrong with seeking community that has a little bit less of faceless, acidic insult in it because you just want to be around not necessarily a group of like minded people, but just a group of people that aren't perpetually looking for the way to make jokes at your expense? And I say this as someone who just started doing this show, being called a hippo and a wildebeest by people that I care about in my community.

[Pablo Torre]

A lot of the critique of the, of the Exodus has been this is libs going to seek a safe space. And none other than noted, noted reasonable man Dean Phillips, who you may recall from his attempt to be president, was saying, like, we need to have conversations with the other side. The entire lesson of the election was we don't talk to each other enough. And this is the embodiment of the problem. And meanwhile, my number one takeaway from blue sky is it is so refreshing to not have your algorithm dictated by Elon Musk. Like it just. Yeah, if nothing else, I just want to lead with that. Like it's just free from his personal thumb on the scale. Before we get into the political nature of it, that is just so glaring as well.

[Mina Kimes]

I think that actually what you're describing is why the echo chamber critique rings false to me. So the reason why, for me personally, I still use Twitter to post my content and try to direct people, frankly, it doesn't do a very good job of that anymore. And this is another thing that the new platform seems to be doing well, is actually encouraging people to click on stuff. But anyways, for the most part, I don't read the things people say to me on there because if I did. It's just, you know, I have recognized that being called Dei 30 times a day is not great for my mental health. Call me weak. I stopped. I don't care. So the reason, Pablo 2 that that happens is not even looking in my mentions. If you open up something you have posted on X, the replies that are prioritized and elevated are either bots, engagement farmers, or in many cases, the most foul, you know, comments possible, because that is what the website now prioritizes. You can pay for the opportunity to be the worst person in the world and rock up to somebody with a giant megaphone. So I bring that up because what I'm, and I think a lot of people don't like is not a difference of ideas. It is someone literally saying toxic, foul things to me. And I think, Dan, what sometimes bothers me when we had these conversations about, well, you know, about safe spaces and can both sides talk and whatnot, is we are conflating, like egregious racism and misogyny with diversity of thought, right? Or with like, reasonable opinions or disagreement.

[Dan Le Batard]

I will tell you, as a longtime newspaper columnist a long time ago, and maybe people won't believe this, I not only don't mind criticism, I find criticism useful. I have found that a community of people who like what you do or the original form of Reddit for our show made our show better because the criticism was constructive and not something to get defensive about. But we are conflating criticism and the kind of insult that makes me jump out of a car because, no, you're not allowed to talk to me like that because that's not in any way helpful. It's not useful. And I believe, I don't think this can be disputed. The acid is so poisonous that I can't even help but notice as a 55 year old that I believe is more accustomed to criticism or public criticism than the average person. I'm like, no, that's bothering me. Like, that's affecting the way that I feel, that whether this is a real person or not or a bot, there's something there that's trying to bother me. Why would I choose to be around that? Why would I choose to spend time with something that seems to be designed to get into something, into a soft space of mine that has over the years gotten pretty strong at handling whatever this is?

[Pablo Torre]

You know, I do want to also just add on to that by saying part of what I use Twitter for is to get news, right? And so I was following, and still continue to follow a lot of conservatives Because I'm actually curious what they have to say. Genuinely. Just like, I'm curious from an earnest like, okay, what is the other side on some things I feel strongly about saying also, like, what's the conversation over there? It's the same reason I have group chats with my friends from high school where it's like, hey, these are how Republicans feel right now. I am actually going to click on that content. What I am most objecting to, though, is I think the structural incentive system that Twitter has become because now it is content farming. Like, it's beyond the ideology. It is just impossible to disentangle your experience as a user trying to read things that are meant as just actual thoughts from the things that are meant to trigger. Yeah, it's just really hard to think that I am getting a thought as opposed to someone's attempt to get money.

[Mina Kimes]

I'm so glad you bring that up, because so much of the discussion about these two platforms and the exodus and what people are looking for in echo chambers is about politics.

[Dan Le Batard]

And you were just doing the Trump dance, by the way, while you did that. The way that you were doing that, you were doing the Trump dance. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Mina Kimes]

People are calling everything Trump dance right now. There's only one.

[Dan Le Batard]

The one. The one that's ejaculating two giraffes is the only Trump dance that there is.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Mina Kimes]

Certainly there is a political element to this. But, Pablo, you're speaking to the other thing that has made that app fairly and significantly less user friendly and unpleasant. And I think it's not political at all, which is the engagement farming, which is that people are now using it to make money in the lowest ways. Right. It is all either rage bait, engagement bait, misinformation. It's the lowest common denominator. And one thing that has been nice is when I opened the algorithm on Blue sky, the viral posts have just been funny. It's been like, good jokes. It reminds me of Twitter, why we fell in love.

[Pablo Torre]

Why we fell in love with this terrible, addictive platform that we all hated initially also in the first place.

[Mina Kimes]

And not. It's not. They're not political jokes. They're just like weird, goofy observations, mundane things. They're cleverly written. And that's what I want out of social media. I just want to be entertained. I. I also. I will say this, though. I have really, and I hope it lasts, and I hope that the moderation tools keep working. I have really missed hearing from people who actually watch and listen and Read what we do. Because I have not been able to do that now for the last three years or whatever, ever since Elon Musk took over a little bit before that, to be honest. And it really has been quite gratifying. And again, maybe I'm a loser for wanting to hear from folks and wanting to talk back to them. And it's. But I missed it. I missed that part of social media. And it is fun, however short lived it'll be.

[Dan Le Batard]

I had a thing happen to me in New York that sort of illustrates some of what it is that you're talking about. Because I'm walking through the streets of New York and I meet somebody who is clearly a fan of what we do. And he filed what were his complaints with the present evolution of our show to me, three or four of them. And a warm feeling came over me as I'm digesting what is criticism because I'm in front of a real human being who cares about what we do. And I'm like, let me hear what you got. I'm actually interested in your opinion because I think that your care is authentic. You're not trying to manipulate a situation with an agenda where I have to question where you're either real or not. Like I don't know whether you're a bot or not. And so I, in front of a person who was being critical was like, yes, this is what it feels like to be a part of a community. And then the next step on that is the reminder that I only actually care about opinions and criticisms that are given to me by people whose opinion I respect. I have to respect your opinion. And in order to respect your opinion, I have to know that you actually authentically care about what it is I'm doing and saying. Not that you're somebody who is just living in order to see if they can trigger me, a real human who.

[Mina Kimes]

Speaks to me like a human being who has objections to my thoughts or wants something different out of my show. I, I will absolutely hear out. The problem is on the other app, it's people being paid to inflame, paying to pick fights who are just, you know, it's, it's. They're not there for anything being done in good faith and, or, and the people who are, their voices are being ground out.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. All of which is to say that becomes a blue sky. I give about two months. Two months and then roll back.

[Dan Le Batard]

Did we sound extra Woke in whimpering about a need for community. This is not, not, not an echo chamber. Echo chamber.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Hold on a second here, buddy.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, glasses, glasses, glasses on.

[Mina Kimes]

When he puts his glasses on, you know it's going to be a serious story.

[Dan Le Batard]

I hate that I have to still put my glasses on for things.

[Pablo Torre]

He's riffling through papers.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, you know what? Okay, I'm not going to be made fun of about this anymore. This is the LeBron James leaving social media. And he was leaving social media essentially because this is Kevin Durant's agent. It confuses me why some of the national sports media still think that the best way to cover sports is through negative takes. We can all acknowledge that sports is the last part of society that universally brings people together. So why can't the coverage be the same? It's only clickbait when you say it. When the platform is so big, you can make the change and allow us all an escape from real life negativity. I, for one, find it all a waste of breath. The Olympics and JJ and Bronze show was the future of what this can and should all be. LeBron then agrees with it and says he. He's taking a break from social media. Your thoughts here, Mina?

[Mina Kimes]

I don't think sports media is more negative than it was five, 10, 15 years ago. I just think that per our earlier discussion, the people who run social media accounts for sports media understand that putting out the most divisive, controversial, whatever things that are said there is more likely to engagement. And I think athletes, agents, rich climbing are more likely to see those things. So I think there is, if there's any, if there's veracity to sort of what they're both claiming. And again, it's a little bit muddled here. It's centered in the fact that social media is amplifying negativity as opposed to the underlying commentary being different from what it was in the past.

[Dan Le Batard]

I think that LeBron is thinking that media is Skip Bayless. That media is someone who has chased him for 20 years to remind him that his excellence isn't what his excellence actually is, which is to compare him to Michael Jordan and have him fail in that comparison. I don't know that LeBron is doing the beat reporters who he interacts with, none of whom are going to be especially mean to him. The grand majority of media that interacts with with LeBron James does the positive thing. But then I would disagree with Mina on I believe this has all gotten coarser. I believe sports radio began this before social media. And the need for everyone to compete in a space where they are getting the attention for what their opinion is, I do believe makes it so that a lot of coverage. And you tell me where it is, you think I'm wrong here? I do believe a lot of coverage is about blame instead of celebration of excellence because it's a lot easier. Easier for us to make content out of blame than it is out of celebration.

[Mina Kimes]

You don't think 15 years ago I have seen some really toxic segments, really. I mean, the discourse around LeBron James in particular, around what was the going back to the decision like. I don't think it was gentler or more celebratory back then. Personally, I would Also note with LeBron, I don't think this is Skip Bayless, just Skip Bayless. Dan. It bothers him that everyone thinks he lies, right? That's an Internet meme.

[Pablo Torre]

Everybody you know on the Internet call me a liar all the time. So what am I now?

[Mina Kimes]

That is people roasting him online. That to me suggests like LeBron isn't just turning on the TV, although Skip's not on TV anymore and saying, wow, they're being mean to Me, I really believe the way he is being discussed on the Internet is a big part of what's affecting him here.

[Pablo Torre]

But I think this entire attempt to sort of isolate the variable is why this is an eternal, unending argument. Because Michael Jordan, by the way, pre Internet, right? So it's sort of like, okay, are we disentangling the Internet from what it is to be in the media? Which is really impossible to do at this point. And so I do want to focus in on something that Rich said at the end, which is that J.J. redick, of course, now LeBron's coach, my guy J.J. redick and LeBron's show how this was a way forward. And if the argument is simply we have oversaturated media, television and Internet with controversy and that sort of more salacious debate stuff, and there's room for great things that are underappreciated, like the appreciation of basketball as a skill, as sort of a nerd, an artist that nerds can appreciate and dissect, then absolutely, like, yeah, that is one way forward. The thing about the power that he is giving though to the media as a concept is also funny not just because of the Internet and the way that of course, that has made all of this sort of this, this giant blob. It's because sports itself, if you talk to fans, is full of naturally occurring criticism. And most people forever will always be saying, that guy sucks. That guy is good. And we're not going to be able to, to move the needle on that, Mina.

[Mina Kimes]

So just speaking not only from personal experience, but like today, Thursday, I started the morning, I started my Thursday mornings doing first take. And then at the end, I do NFL Live on NFL Live, we do breakdowns, we discuss trends, we get deep into matchups, we do X's and O's stuff. And it's. People seem to really like it. It does well. Some of the clips do well whatnot. However, if you walk into the average sports bar in America, two guys, right, they're going to be arguing about whether Jalen Hurts or Matt Stafford is more likely to joke, you know, and Sunday Night Football, I personally don't think those sorts of debates, which do reflect what Pablo's talking about, are inherently toxic. I think there's a vast spectrum here with regards to, like, the kind of things that are being discussed. There are things that are toxic and absurd and sort of connects back to our discussion at the top. I just think like we're painting with too broad a brush sometimes when we talk about sports media as a whole. As a Goliath we are.

[Dan Le Batard]

But I would say if we're going to speak in these generalities, I have generally found, taking the entire spectrum of human beings into account, that athletes are generally better at criticism than other human beings, at least in part because they're going over film room in their jobs where they're making a million different mistakes and the coaches are constantly criticizing them. And they're getting that criticism from people whose criticism they respect as informed as expertise and as greater than the people who are on television or the people like, even us. I think they're objecting to how ill informed it is when all you can do, all the information you got is, ah, you're a choker. And, and I understand how all of us, if we walked out into a community full of people outside of whatever show we did and they arrived with lazy criticisms, we'd object to that more than we would to good criticism.

[Pablo Torre]

What you're saying is a fair point, right? Like, would you ever expect somebody who is doing PhD level work to hear the criticism of somebody who can barely understand it on an elementary level and not feel justified resentment? And I think this is where the unfortunate reminder, the unfortunate caveat to all of this must be made, which is that this is the consequence of the biggest tent in America. Like, the whole point is that you actually want people with elementary level understandings of the sport that you have mastered to care and presume that they can do it, because that is actually the business you have chosen. It is not the business of media. It is the business of the spectacle. And Mina, that's just part of it. And I just don't think we can ever solve that frustration. It's actually part of why you get paid so much money.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah, I agree with that. And I would also say I don't think Rich Kleiman is arguing in favor of more educated criticism. Dan. Like, I know that Rich and LeBron are two different. I don't want to.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, but, but, but when he's Talking about the JJ Redick and LeBron podcast, what he is clamoring for, there is an expertise of an elevated level when talking about sports.

[Mina Kimes]

Sure. But also saying, you know, why can't it be more like the Olympics? The Olympics is human interest stories. People who work for athletes, by the way, you know, now especially now that they control a lot of the media around them, particularly have replaced a lot of the actual journalism being done with their own self produced docum documentary shows, whatnot. They want public relations, which is fine. You know, like there is obviously space for things that are made by people about themselves, which is what public relations really is. I don't think that critique is coming from a place of wanting, like from a value perspective so much as it is from a business this perspective, if that makes sense.

[Pablo Torre]

The irony of Kevin Durant's agent being like, we need to be less online. It's like, dude, just call him up. Just call Kevin yourself.

[Mina Kimes]

He's just laughing, Pablo. He just finds it funny. He's not actually mad about anything. He reads.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, I will start, but I wanna ask you guys a couple of questions here before we start. Do you guys fancy yourselves interesting? Like, are we self? Aware? Are we. And are people in general self aware about whether they're d. Interesting or do most people think they're kind of dull? Or do most people think they're kind of interesting?

[Mina Kimes]

I'm not sure what is dull anymore to people. And a lot of this is because of the Internet, frankly, because similarly to this Dull Men's club, you can find a community of people who think anything is fascinating. Like, for example, my probably most prevalent hobby is playing word games in crosswords. And I'll talk about it that much. But if I do ever post like a crossword score, I think that would seem to be dull. But because there's an audience for everything these days, it's not dull to everyone. I have found when I talk about such things. So I think I have actually lost sense of what qualifies as interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

That is a very political answer. The real answer that all of us have to give if we're being injected with truth serum is that we all think we're interesting. That's why we ask you to watch the we're doing right now. Like, let's be honest. Like, if we are boring, you're not watching that unless you're into performative boringness. And the thing about this men's. This dull Men's club is that it seems to be. And this is a word that was missing from the article, but seems to be. I think a real key aspect to this is that it's authentically. And Mina actually articulated it before in a. In, I think, a specific way where she's not constantly posting about the things she does. I know every day, multiple times a day, to the point where I'm on a group chat with her and I'm, like, not engaging with her. Like, screenshots of, like, there was a point where wordle was a thing and she was like, on just like the. The ninth version of. I'm just like, I don't care about any of this.

[Mina Kimes]

Me and Mike Shore and Alice. So we're in this group chat where the three of us love word games and puzzles and Pablo does not. And during the height of the pandemic, we were all doing like 20 puzzles a day. We were doing. Octoral was a big one. There was one above Octorital. We were playing this game where you guess a country purely based on its shape and sharing our results. This is what I gather all day long. And Pablo apparently was bored out of his mind by our adults.

[Pablo Torre]

It's horrible.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's not dull. That's dorky. I don't. That's a different classification.

[Pablo Torre]

I disagree.

[Dan Le Batard]

It was both.

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's not an either or. This is a yes. And it was both.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, but I don't know how to answer this question because I don't think of puzzles as necessarily dull. Making lentil. Yeah, making lentil soup. I don't find particularly interesting. I solicited my wife's help on this because I don't believe my governor is good. Because the nature of speaking for three and a half hours a day, you must find yourself Fascina. Must find yourself really interesting if you think that people should listen to your opinion for three and a half hours a day. And so she said that me watching the CBS Sunday Morning is dull. And I yelled at her because it is not dull. It's one of the great programs in America, television.

[Pablo Torre]

That's the most AOL news program that exists.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's a great show, though I'm not going to. Well, I mean, it is good.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just the oldest show that's ever agreed.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm not dis. I'm not disagreeing with that. I happened to like the tranquil sounds for 90 seconds of a creek. And I'm not going to argue with you about it. You can have your own opinions about it. And I was thinking to myself, well, riding my bike and stuff. And I was gonna nominate that, but I stopped doing it when I, you know, ran into the street. A car door opened and I hit it, and I fouled up my body in all sorts of ways, but that's not dull. And then I started a bunch of stretching and stuff that I have to do that I talk about too much to get my body realigned.

[Pablo Torre]

People talk about stretching.

[Mina Kimes]

My husband's always talking about stretching. So boring to me.

[Dan Le Batard]

Also dull. Yes, thank you. All of the things nominated by my wife as well. But I settled in on Beyond Royal Crush, which you guys have made fun of me. The mindless exercise of Royal Crush.

[Pablo Torre]

My liege.

[Mina Kimes]

Wait, are you still playing Royal Crush? And how far have you advanced?

[Dan Le Batard]

Occasionally? I am. I'm about at 8,000.

[Pablo Torre]

He's not a player. He just crushes royally.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's right. That's right. In another way, I crush royalty. I'm gonna. You talk about old here.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ms. Pac Man. I've got a machine, and I love playing Ms. Pac man, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

[Pablo Torre]

He has a tabletop arcade. Ms. Pac man machine.

[Mina Kimes]

That's kind of cool. They have arcade in your house. Even your dull story, like, buried and interesting and, like, cool.

[Pablo Torre]

That's. That's still. That's still pretty interesting. I submit that my thing that I do all the time, every day that I pretty much never post about, but sometimes, occasionally will allude to is take care of my plants.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, God. Nobody wants to hear about your.

[Dan Le Batard]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, they do.

[Mina Kimes]

No one wants to hear about your plants.

[Pablo Torre]

You have. Yeah, look at. Look at this. This is the show that I host privately. It's called Repotting with Pablo. Debuted during the pandemic. Although I owned many plants before the pandemic, Just for the record, here, I have over 35 plants. I counted this morning. These are all today. The various kinds. Look, I can raise a fiddle leaf. Fig. You know, I can absolutely make sure a pothos can stretch its vines over all sorts of shelves in my apartment. I can go on and on about this stuff. And asparagus.

[Dan Le Batard]

This looks like something I'd see on my CBS Sunday morning show. This looks like something that I would devour on Sunday morning.

[Pablo Torre]

Eggplant. That's a money tree over there. That's sort of like craning its neck towards the sunlight.

[Dan Le Batard]

I've got so many money trees in my house.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the best.

[Mina Kimes]

Okay, I need to ask my husband to come up with something for me, because all of the dull interests you guys have brought up are things that my husband talks about that I find extraordinarily dull. Stretching plants, watches. I'm not trying to roast him, but when he. And like when I hear two men talking about watches, I don't know if that fits into this category because. Is that dull? It's dull to me.

[Pablo Torre]

The thing about watches is that I don't. I've never worn a watch, but I will find myself because I am a man. Like watching watch content and contemplate. Do I Should I have a watch?

[Mina Kimes]

Sometimes I look at a watch, a video he's watching where people are talking about watches, and it honestly is the most boring content I can imagine that exists. I cannot fathom it.

[Dan Le Batard]

I told everybody here the other day, this is going to shock you. All that when I came out of college. I look forward to the look on your face when I say this. That out of college, my original attire to sporting events early in my reporting career. Suspenders and a pocket watch with the chain going from my belt loop to my pocket, given to me by my grandfather. So be careful how much you make fun of that, but I figured you guys would enjoy that.

[Pablo Torre]

We're going to have to search for photographic evidence of this. Why? Why? Why did you want this to be your aesthetic?

[Dan Le Batard]

I actually, at the time, this will be funny to all of you, said to myself, you know what? I'm going to dress a little better than sports writers are reputed to dress classic better.

[Mina Kimes]

In my mind, he looks like a union busting oil tycoon.

[Pablo Torre]

He looks like. No, he looks like the Penguin from Batman. Like, what is this?

[Mina Kimes]

Pablo and I have left out the most actual boring, which is just talking about anything related to our children.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, this is what I was. I was actually gonna ask you about.

[Pablo Torre]

The tallest thing I do right now is apply to kindergarten. And if you guys want all of the takes that I've never aired, but I got, call me up sometime. I have so many opinions.

[Mina Kimes]

I was in New York. Was it like a month ago or something? Pablo and we got together. Yumi and Katie, Nolan and Shocker. Katie was late and as Pablo and I were sitting in the bar, Dan, we like speed ran kids for like 15 minutes because we knew Kaden. We didn't want to bore her with it. Like, I know all about Pablo applying to kindergarten. I know the kindergartners you apply to. I know your thought process. I know about even pop dance looks bored right now. I'm so. It's so Boring. Nobody wants to hear this if you don't have kids.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, it's great. It's great self awareness for you guys to have to get the parenting stuff out.

[Pablo Torre]

All girls kindergarten have thoughts.

[Dan Le Batard]

Me and Valerie went out to dinner with a couple who had kids and had to strategize beforehand how to not open that portal conversationally. And we strategized and failed. And then on ebay.

[Mina Kimes]

Not on you. No, no, no, no. It's not on you. It is on the people of kids. Nobody wants to hear about your kids.

[Dan Le Batard]

But I was just gonna. I was gonna ask you guys this when we started this conversation because I was going to say that some people might think that motherhood is boring, but I do not happen to think that motherhood is dull. But if you sat with me, what an ally. And started telling me for many years, if you spent a lot of time telling me about your kids, I could see how others.

[Mina Kimes]

You don't think motherhood is boring. Would you like to hear about Nino's transition from two naps to one and how it's potentially affecting his sleep schedule at night and how perhaps we need to stretch his wake window a little bit longer because he's been waking up at 4am and then we don't him to come. We're not trying to avoid co sleeping at all costs.

[Pablo Torre]

So we're not going never co sleep.

[Mina Kimes]

We are letting him cry.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

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[Pablo Torre]

Full eligible tool list in store and online. At the end of every show, Mina, we say what we found out about on a show that is about finding stuff out. Dan is left. Which is understandable because we've been talking about. About parenting for longer than I ever, ever intend to on a show that wants viewers. So what did you. What did you. What did you find out about today?

[Mina Kimes]

I found out that Dan apparently dressed dressed like Boss Hogg as a. As a young reporter. I'd like to see photos of this. Yeah. Ironic for somebody who was all about player empowerment that he dressed like someone who wanted to break up the players union. I'd like to dig more into that how about you? What did you learn?

[Pablo Torre]

No, I found out that everything that Dan is now is the product of a hard pendulum swing directly away from what he initially tried to be. And also that guy who Dan intimidated on the road, that Valerie saved him him from going to jail over is somebody I'd like to talk to. So, you know, you know, reach me.

[Mina Kimes]

Find out. Find that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I have a feeling that you may have been in the right. Just. Just a hunch. Just a hunch.

[Mina Kimes]

Follow me on Blue sky.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre finds Out a Metal Arc Media production and we are produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daewig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post Our theme song as always by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.