PTFO - We Found the Secret Album That the NBA's Best Executive Doesn't Want You to Hear

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Episode Title: PTFO - We Found the Secret Album That the NBA's Best Executive Doesn't Want You to Hear
Release Date: June 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, hosts Dan Le Batard and Stugotz delve into an extraordinary discovery that bridges the worlds of professional basketball and hidden musical talents. The episode centers around Sam Presti, the esteemed executive of the Oklahoma City Thunder, and his secret foray into the music industry.

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Discovery of Sam Presti's Secret Album

The episode kicks off with Pablo Torre introducing a mysterious sound, intriguing both hosts and listeners alike. This sound is later revealed to be part of a clandestine music album titled "Milk Money", purportedly created by Sam Presti.

Pablo Torre:

"All of this means, for people who just aren't familiar, that they overcame the loss of the three consecutive MVPs that Sam Presti drafted in his first three drafts..."
[02:11]

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Research into Sam Presti's Musical Background

Pablo Torre shares his investigative journey into uncovering Sam Presti's hidden musical endeavors. Despite Presti's reputation for privacy and secrecy within the NBA, Torre uncovers that Presti has a passionate side project in music, specifically within the jazz and hip-hop genres.

Pablo Torre:

"Sam Presti, who was perhaps not coincidentally, showed up at his annual preseason press conference that fall a little more loose than usual... his genuine and to this point, generally undisclosed non-basketball passion does happen to be music."
[07:03]

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Interview with Dara Mirzai

Dara Mirzai, an Oklahoma City Thunder superfan, shares the serendipitous discovery of the "Milk Money" CD. During a vacation in Boston, Mirzai stumbled upon a CD bearing Sam Presti's name and, upon listening, realized it was indeed Presti's work.

Dara Mirzai:

"About a week or two later, I finally put the CD in just to hear what it was like... and I thought it was Sam Presti's voice."
[09:09]

Mirzai attempted to share the album online but faced pushback, leading to its removal, indicating the sensitive nature of Presti's musical venture.

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The Secret Album "Milk Money"

"Milk Money" is described as a fusion of jazz and hip-hop, reflective of the mid-90s era when such collaborations were burgeoning. The album showcases Presti's versatility and hidden talents beyond his NBA executive role.

Wyatt Cenac:

"It's a very angry letter from Stephen A. Smith? Is just him being like, how dare you not believe that I could be serious about running for president?"
[00:33]

This line, among others, hints at the album's thematic depth and Presti's creative expression through music.

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Involvement of Musicians: Mike Tucker, Matthew Morin, and Branford Marsalis

To provide a professional critique of "Milk Money," Torre enlists renowned musicians, including Grammy-nominated saxophonist Mike Tucker, jazz pianist Matthew Morin, and the legendary Branford Marsalis. Their insights shed light on the album's musical composition and Presti's artistic prowess.

Matthew Morin:

"Sam Presti's vision was he didn't want to do anything like specifically jazz or hip hop, but he was into both. So we recorded a couple jazz tunes and some spoken word rap things."
[19:32]

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Branford Marsalis's Critique of "Milk Money"

Branford Marsalis provides an in-depth analysis of the tracks, praising the album's ambition while also offering constructive criticism regarding its execution. Marsalis highlights the blend of genres and Presti's ability to merge different musical elements.

Branford Marsalis:

"Music transcends race, religion, sex. It transcends all of that. It's a reflection of the human heart."
[44:00]

His feedback emphasizes the emotional and technical aspects of the album, showcasing Presti's genuine passion for music.

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Parallels Between Jazz Music and NBA Team Building

A significant portion of the discussion draws parallels between preste's approach to team management and jazz composition. Both require foresight, adaptability, and the harmonious blending of diverse talents to achieve a successful outcome.

Dan Le Batard:

"He keeps the beat... building a team is very similar to building a band. You have to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each player."
[37:00]

This analogy underscores Presti's strategic mindset, not just in basketball but also in his artistic endeavors.

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Conclusion and Implications

The episode wraps up by contemplating the implications of uncovering such a hidden side of a prominent NBA executive. It raises questions about the intersection of personal passions and professional roles, and how multifaceted individuals like Sam Presti contribute to both sports and the arts.

Pablo Torre:

"That is the entire episode."
[56:04]

The hosts leave listeners with a deeper appreciation for Presti's dual talents and the enriching blend of sports and music narratives.

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Notable Quotes

• Stephen A. Smith:

  "I, Stephen A. Smith, owe this man an apology... Sam Presti is a special executive."
  [02:23]

• Branford Marsalis:

  "Music is a reflection of the human heart."
  [44:00]

• Pablo Torre:

  "Sam Presti did not want this episode with you, Wyatt."
  [04:18]

---

This episode offers a fascinating exploration of Sam Presti's hidden musical talents, seamlessly blending discussions about NBA strategy with insights into music composition and collaboration. It's a must-listen for fans interested in the multifaceted lives of sports executives and the unexpected ways their passions intersect with their professional worlds.

Transcript

[Paul]

Paul.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm Pablo Torre. And this episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin. 1738 Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is right after the sad. Do not open what's in front of you yet.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Is it a very angry letter from Stephen A. Smith? Is just him being like, how dare you not believe that I could be serious about running for president?

[Pablo Torre]

I can say that it is not that. Although I can't rule out the fact that he might say that to you at one point.

[Wyatt Cenac]

All right, now I'm even more curious.

[Pablo Torre]

The extent to which I've told you that we're doing a kind of different show and tell today in which it's just you.

[Wyatt Cenac]

You just said, hey, come do the show. No other details. So, yeah. Batter up.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And now you got this thing in front of you with my name on it. Yeah, that's your name on. It's very expertly wrapped, as always. This is our NBA Finals coverage. All right, welcome. But my first real question for you, Wyatt, is whether you know anything about the executive in charge of the Oklahoma City Thunder, a guy by the name Sam Presti. Of Sam Presti. What. What else do you know about this man?

[Wyatt Cenac]

He was from the spurs organization.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Wyatt Cenac]

And then got the job in. In Oklahoma City. And his first name is Sam.

[Pablo Torre]

That's kind of how it goes, I think, in general, with Sam Presti, who, by the way, this year did win the NBA's executive of the Year award. His team is in the NBA Finals, obviously. They're playing the Pacers right now, the Oklahoma City Thunder. And he is, I think, to the point of you not knowing much beyond what you gave me, extraordinarily private. He is very secretive. We don't know a lot about him by design.

[Stephen A. Smith]

I want to look on national television and apologize to that man for any questions I've had about how exceptional he is as an executive. I'm dead serious. I don't apologize often.

[Dara Mirzai]

Yeah.

[Stephen A. Smith]

But Sam Presti on national television, I'm gonna say this. I, Stephen A. Smith, owe this man an apology. I don't give a damn about the championships right now. I can't. When I'm a Knicks fan, I can tell you this. To have 15 picks, to have that roster, to have them this young playing at this level, this man is. The man is a special executive.

[Pablo Torre]

And all of this means, for people who just aren't familiar, that they overcame the loss of the three consecutive MVPs that Sam Presti drafted in his first three drafts. He took Kevin Durant, then Russell Westbrook, then James Harden in his first three seasons as the GM.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And in fact, while those three MVPs left Oklahoma City for bigger markets, Sam Presti, who has had a ton of incoming interest from other bigger markets, he. He never did. Obviously, he never left. And so what he did was he stockpiled a Zelian draft picks. He traded for Shay Gil Alexander, the season's MVP, which is impressive in its own right. 168 games. He got a city that pretty much nobody wants to willingly play for. Back to the finals. And the secrecy of him, the secrecy of this organization, which has been a bit of a black box, has been this way for so long that there is one story from Grantland years ago in which a reporter for Fox Sports said, quote, when it comes to getting a one on one interview, it would be easier to get access to the leader of isis, end quote.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Didn't isis, didn't they have social media for a while? Imagine if that's your. Your job is. Yeah, I'm the social media manager for isis.

[Pablo Torre]

My real passion is making music, but I my day job, I am managing the ISIS social feeds.

[Wyatt Cenac]

We've got some pretty fun tiktoks.

[Pablo Torre]

All of this is to say, and I want you to be aware of this before we proceed any further, all right, that Sam Presti did not want me to do this episode with you.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Wyatt, specifically because of me.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that part I can't necessarily isolate. But. But in general, yeah, he doesn't want this to happen.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

He's also very media fluent. And I say that because one thing I can report is that a little over a decade ago he actually explored hiring our extremely plugged in buddy, Brian Windhorst away from ESPN to work as an information guy for the Thunder. And the question of like, why would he do that? Why would he do that?

[Wyatt Cenac]

It's because we got to put up our wind horse fingers.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, that's right. The reason that Zam Presti considered hiring Brian Windhorse to kick the tires on hiring him away from ESPN is that information to San Fresti is currency. It is an edge, a competitive advantage, and you don't surrender that information. And so Sam Presti never speaks to the media on the record during the season. He actually, in a very careful way, does it precisely twice a year. He speaks once in the preseason and once after the finals are over. And he just talks basketball. That is his entire Allotment of public exposure. And so what I started doing in lieu of a sit down with Sam Presti, him being the third chair with us on this episode of Share and Tell.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Right? Yeah. We should have still just had a chair.

[Pablo Torre]

Instead, what I started doing was I was just grinding Sam Presti PRESS CONFERENCE ARCHIVAL VIDEO looking for the thing that he seems to be trying to hide. And what I found was something interesting.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Because back in 2012, which was the last year that the Thunder were in the NBA Finals, Sam Presley, perhaps not coincidentally, showed up at his annual preseason press conference that fall. A little more loose than usual, even a little more confident, you might say.

[Paul]

I like.

[Mike Tucker]

Which many people in here probably don't really care about. But I'll say it anyway because I am interested in it. I like watching. I like music documentaries. VH1 has this series called Classic Albums. Has anyone ever seen this? It's like I'm totally hooked. And if you know where, if you know where to find the actual, like, set of them, let me know. Can't find them. So I do most of my viewing on YouTube, but they've got like all these. It basically takes you back through how the albums were made. So like Pink Floyd, the Wall, Jay Z's Reasonable Doubt was. That was really good. Steely Dan Asia and you go back like the producer and you hear what they were thinking and the artists themselves, what they were thinking when they were doing the actual recording. It's just fascinating. I think it's. It's really, really good.

[Pablo Torre]

Sam Presti to continue the scouting report. He did play basketball at Emerson and that video, by the way, had 28 views on YouTube for those who want to go check it out. And part of what I Learned as the 28th person to see this video is just that his genuine and to this point, generally undisclosed non basketball passion does happen to be music.

[Mike Tucker]

Other thing that I thought was interesting or for me personally, I share it with everybody since we're on this weird kick.

[Paul]

And.

[Mike Tucker]

Everybody knows I'm like really open about all this stuff. You catch me on a good day.

[Pablo Torre]

And at one point Sam Freste is asked actually which music documentaries about which, which particular albums he might like to see.

[Mike Tucker]

Pretty much anything by James Brown. I would be fascinated by, you know, just to see the like just kind of how he guided the bands because the bands were just so tight and so well put together. I'd be fascinated by. By that Kind of Blue by Miles Davis. You know, to see that history basically coming together, that would be awesome. So I'LL stop there. But that. But I can go on.

[Wyatt Cenac]

When he said Miles Davis kind of blew. It's interesting that he said just that album and not maybe a more expansive Miles Davis.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, now I think it's clear. Probably why I invited you here.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Sure.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Because you, beyond being a person with an actual expansive record collection, you are a bit of a musicologist. You would do listening parties basically on your social channels.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Oh, during the pandemic.

[Pablo Torre]

During the pandemic.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And so, yeah, like, I am not that guy. But what I did in lieu of my musical knowledge is continue to just fall down the rabbit hole on this. I went to the dark corners of YouTube and Twitter and Reddit trying to just, like, look into Sam Presti and his love of music.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah. And did you find, like, a discogs account for him?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, well, you know, multiple friends of his in the NBA told me that they knew nothing about this period. But in lieu of a. Yeah, a discogs account or anything like that, yeah, I found somebody who did know something about this topic.

[Dara Mirzai]

Hi, my name is Dar Mirzai. I'm an attorney. I've been an Oklahoma City fan since the day they moved in okc. I was born and raised in Oklahoma.

[Pablo Torre]

And what you should know, Wyatt, about Dara is that he's an Oklahoma native under superfan. And I found him while digging through Reddit. And Dara, like you, also loves music. Not unlike Sam Presti, it seems. And in fact, like you, Dara does love digging through crates.

[Dara Mirzai]

So about seven or eight years ago, I was on vacation around the Boston area, and we were visiting some music shops or whatever was left of them, and we went into one and they had this extensive discount bin of CDs, which is full of a bunch of CDs of bands no one's ever heard of. And so I was looking through them, and all of a sudden I stumbled across one. And I thought, oh, this is funny. This guy has the same name as the Thunder gm. I picked it up and it was obviously a really old cd. And so I figured it was some local musician from 20 years ago. And so I just bought it. I mean, I bought CDs for worse reasons before. About a week or two later, I finally put the CD in just to hear what it was like. And I thought it was going to be like an acoustic album or whatever. And all of a sudden, 20 seconds in, the guy starts talking. I'm like, I've heard this voice. Like, this is definitely Sam Presti's voice.

[Pablo Torre]

And so, Wyatt, what I'd like you to do now is please open the package in front of you and describe it for those not watching on YouTube, please.

[Wyatt Cenac]

All right.

[Pablo Torre]

Because what you are doing, what you have in your hands, is what Dara himself was holding almost a decade ago now when he was looking very closely at this strange found object.

[Wyatt Cenac]

It is a CD cover. It says Sam Presti. The title of the album is Milk Money. There's a picture of what appears to be a young Sam Presti in shorts of the time. This feels very much, I would say, mid-90s, where the shorts are going way past the knee, because that was a time in life where men felt they had to cover up their knees.

[Pablo Torre]

So the black and white photo, that's kind of like artistically shot, right? Like, the foreground woman is out of focus. The text is like the sans serif, like red. Yeah, Know, it's like a highbrow kind of aesthetic.

[Wyatt Cenac]

There's someone else who could look at this and say, oh, this is the design style of like, seven, like, indie backpack hip hop albums of the time.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. And of that time, it turns out, is Sam Presty. He was a drummer at Emerson College. And the voice that Dara heard when he was listening to this thing on loop and started Googling all these search terms, it didn't exist anywhere else on the Internet. Yeah, no one had posted this. There was no audio of this music anywhere else. And there still isn't, by the way.

[Dara Mirzai]

So a couple years ago, I actually tried to put it on YouTube. I just thought it'd be fun. Wasn't trying to make any money off of it. And I put online just Sam Presti, Milk Money. Nothing Like Thunder GM's hidden rap album. And I put online and got a couple of views. And then a couple days later, I kind of just started getting some messages of just some people asking me to sort of take it down. So eventually I did.

[Pablo Torre]

Who asked you to take it down?

[Dara Mirzai]

So I don't know who they were, but they were just complaining like, hey, should this really be out there? This was kind of something he did when he was young.

[Paul]

And.

[Dara Mirzai]

And I sort of started talking to them. And I don't have any proof of it, but it felt like it was someone who kind of might have known Sam or was in their camp and just like, not really sure if we want that out there. And so I was just like, okay, I don't want to mess with anyone. I'll just take it down. I don't want to cause any problems.

[Pablo Torre]

You don't want to be at War with your favorite basketball team over this CD that you found in a crate. Yeah.

[Dara Mirzai]

And at the time, I was traveling back to Oklahoma City a lot. I didn't want to get banned from Thunder games or anything either.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I will say that Banned for posting Thunder GM's hidden rap album would be an incredible headline that would.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah, I'm looking on the back here and this is all accurate here, the sort of back production credits.

[Pablo Torre]

I believe so.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Because it says this was put out on Relativity Records.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that, like, what does this mean to you?

[Wyatt Cenac]

Three Six Mafia was on Relativity. Common was on Relativity.

[Pablo Torre]

It raises the question of, like, why Sam Presty does not want this on the Internet. Because presumably, like, the question is, is it actually so embarrassing that you would want this scrubbed?

[Wyatt Cenac]

Right, right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so what I can tell you is that even though Sam Peresti did not want me to do this episode with you, I have done now significantly more than merely acquire this copy of the album Milk Money that he released. An album, by the way, that his longtime PR person, Matt Tumbles sing with the Thunder has never heard before.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

I am told what we're kind of doing in this episode, Wyatt is making our own version of one of Sam Presti's favorite things. We're. We're going to make the Milk Money music documentary.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Also, one other thing. In the production, you said the. The chap we were talking to, his name was Dara.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Wyatt Cenac]

So this is written and produced by Sam Presti under Relativity Records and Dara's dream publishing. It's Sam Presti's nightmare, but it seems like it's Dara's dream.

[Pablo Torre]

So white. At this point, I just want to turn your attention to some of the band members involved in the production of this album because again, super Thunder fan Dara randomly unearthed this thing in that discount CD bin in Boston. And it turns out that Milk Money was more than merely Sam Presty's musical debut.

[Matthew Morin]

Hey, everybody. My name is Mike Tucker. I'm a professional saxophonist. I'm a Grammy nominated saxophonist who teaches at Berkeley College of Music. I'm a professor there, and I also tour regularly with trumpet player Arturo Sandoval.

[Pablo Torre]

At the risk of ruining this interview already, do you have your sax nearby, Mike?

[Wyatt Cenac]

I feel like people meet a comedian and they're like, tell me a joke. And it's like, no. Or if you meet a dentist and it's like, hey, take a look at this tooth. No, but saxophone player, hey, are. Do you happen to be strapped right now? Of course I'm a saxophone player. I'M always strapped.

[Pablo Torre]

For the record. Your Grammy nominated saxophone is Mike Tucker.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Was ready on all sorts of fronts. I mean, when I asked him, do you remember meeting Sam Presti, who was again playing D3 basketball at Emerson at the time?

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

He did not hesitate.

[Matthew Morin]

So the first time I met Sam was actually at a rehearsal for this. For this recording when I was a junior in high school. But Sam, you know, he. He definitely made a real impression on me. My friend Matt Morin, he was a pianist. He doesn't play anymore, but we both were playing together and Matt went to Concord Carlisle High School, which Sam attended.

[Branford Marsalis]

Yeah. So my name is Matthew Morin and I used to be a musician, a jazz musician, a jazz pianist, and then I became an ethnomusicologist and a professor. And now I'm a dean at a community college in California. Santa Ana College. So Sam and I went to the same high school. He was a year ahead of me and he was definitely one of the cool kids. There was a band room and we were really dorky, right? Like we were like losers and we hid in the band room. Like we would eat our lunch in there and he totally would come and listen, you know, and it wasn't fake. He really did. Like, he was like, look, he looked up to us as these dorky kids, as like, you know, like a really, like, popular basketball guy with a girlfriend and all this other stuff, you know, that we looked up to, that was like, that was the best, you know, that was the best. And I think it actually did a lot for our self confidence that we probably never admitted to ourselves that then he asked us to be on this album.

[Matthew Morin]

Basically, like, his concept was like, he didn't want to do anything like specifically jazz or hip hop, but he was into both. So like, you know, when we recorded, we recorded a couple jazz tunes, but then there were a couple like kind of like spoken word kind of rap things in there too. I actually just the other day when you guys contacted me for this interview, I had to. I hadn't listened to the album since we recorded it, basically, you know, oh, wow, wow, wow. But I listened back to it yesterday and it was like probably in like 1996 or 7 that we recorded it. So it was like at a time where like hip hop artists were collaborating with jazz musicians.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you a basketball fan?

[Matthew Morin]

I mean, man, like, I'm not at all.

[Pablo Torre]

But Wyatt, this era, dare I say, might be very familiar to you.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah, like he was saying there was a big connection between jazz and hip hop. Whether you Were talking about Tribe Called Quest, but also thinking about Guru was putting out the jazz Mataz albums and Digable Planets. And so there was this. This thing that was happening around that time, I think that predates Cornell West's rap album.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Which is thing that exists.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right, yeah. You're talking about noted Matrix Cinematic Universe cast member Corbett West.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah, you might know him from the Matrix. Nothing else, just the Matrix.

[Paul]

But.

[Pablo Torre]

But again, conscious hip hop, right?

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Was the brand. All of which is to say that track one of Milk Money, the introduction.

[Paul]

Sounded like this music transcends race, religion, sex. It transcends all that. It's a reflection of the human heart. Somebody can decipher that for you. Say what it means. You dig what it means. You flip. I mean, flip for real.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, that's because. That's what I tried to do is, you know, because I had all the. The music in my head that I wanted to do, but I had to track everybody down, you know, so what I only want. I knew how to do it was just get to people that were close to me that I thought could carry out, you know, and kind of expand on the things that I was thinking about. So I went. I got Mark Panaski from way back, Dave Wolfberg from way back, and, you know, Jason Reese, Chris Hawes both came in and did some horn work on it for me. I got Matt Morin, Mike Tucker just killing them, James Blackwell doing some cuts. Got Matt Binefrast up from Jersey with this man, Isoa from Philly. It's a flow over track that we did, you know, and. And it's. It's tough because I didn't want to overstep my boundaries because I'm not a hip hop purist. I'm not a jazz purist by any means, you know, but it's music that I love and it's stuff that I wanted to do.

[Wyatt Cenac]

So.

[Pablo Torre]

So what are you thinking as you listen to track one of Milk Money for the first time?

[Wyatt Cenac]

The first thing I'm thinking is there's a real humility that he has that I feel like I want to commend him for as both, saying he is someone who appreciates his music but does not consider himself an aficionado. The other thing that stands out to me as I was listening to it there was that. That horn, that sort of horn rift that I couldn't place, but I recognized it, and I'm still having trouble recognizing it. I feel like maybe it was From a Guru Jazzmatazz album. I'm not 100% sure. But then there was this audio collage of things that were happening. There was a piece from the Roots, from Proceed, Proceed. There was something from. You could hear Q Tip in there. And so the thing that was teed up earlier, where I was mentioning this moment in time and the Roots and Tribe and Digable Planets and all this stuff, it is. Yeah, it's. He and I were drinking.

[Pablo Torre]

Nailed it.

[Wyatt Cenac]

We were drinking the same water. Yeah, yeah, this is. This is. I know you, Sam.

[Pablo Torre]

He could not be more clearly a fan of A Tribe Called Quest.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And that got Matt thinking.

[Branford Marsalis]

I'll just say that the hip hop influences were his. Like, he was really. I think down that road, he was picking the genre that had less cachet and less, like, marketability in. Because instead he wanted to lean into the harder thing because it really was his creation. It wasn't like Mike and I were calling the shots, because if we were calling the shots, it would have been straight ahead jazz, every sing track and probably nothing but, like, uptempo. And there is a really strong parallel to what he does right now.

[Pablo Torre]

And so that whole thing about, like, Sam Presti on this quest to win a title in Oklahoma City, which has less cachet, less marketability, again, no star players demand trades there or sign there as free agents, the TV ratings also, compared to the larger markets, obviously worse.

[Wyatt Cenac]

If Sam Presti were in a larger market, if he were in New York, I don't know that he has the cachet to say, hey, I want to stockpile draft picks. I want to. Basically, I want to go into the basement for a little while and tinker. And when you think about, you know, that sort of world of indie or backpack conscious hip hop, whatever you want to call it, I feel like for so much of that, it was okay. Yeah, you're going into the basement and you're just tinkering.

[Pablo Torre]

And I think that exact argument might be embodied in the title of what turns out to be the album's fourth track, which is an original song titled Nothing to Lose.

[Unknown Speaker]

Freeloading, yo, here and gone is Mother Nature's sad song that's why when we alive we gotta strive and keep keep.

[Paul]

On.

[Unknown Speaker]

Put your mind in it Life's lesson, Chapter one Slice you a section from the pot graph A wordcraft a mic that's an asset an incline slipped in the vinyl brew pursuit the paragraphs the polar caps in the loose laid back lounge court depth nothing to lose and it reminisce and Blissing as I shifted the cruise on Paying dues ain't about aggression or how you dress in this progression of minds that can't be learned in one session. That's why confession to the self is harder than lying Trying tribulation trying alert panicle sirens Properties of steel's iron fire fly towards the back Life impede crazy copper speed blood drench the map Ask yourself while stamina swing low on the 2, 3 the grassy dude situation Thicker than glue Snares detest me Feel that the chemistry ill rap distill that extract.

[Pablo Torre]

I should just say that he. He rented a place in New Hampshire himself. He donated all of the proceeds from Milk Money and also this live concert that the band performed in. According to Mike Tucker, the saxophonist, he donated all of the proceeds from this concert in front of like 300, 400 people in Boston to charity.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Oh, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And so the charity. All the proceeds went to the Extraordinary Needs Fund at Boston Children's Hospital.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Oh, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

That is like a pretty. Just. I find it hard to poke any holes in that part of this.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And then they produced another album together, actually, whose artwork has been floating around the NBA dork web. The album is called All Things Considered. It's a black and white photo of Sam Freste.

[Wyatt Cenac]

That's him in the far background.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, so he's like this Waldo character who is just in the back with a chessboard in front of him. And again, the metaphors kind of speak for themselves at this point. But yeah, a guy who had become known for his decision making is sort of like trying to hide in the background of his own follow up album cover to Milk Money. And time for this band was short, by the way. Ultimately, like, everybody after these albums came out and then disappeared, everyone went off in their own directions. Mike and Matt and Sam did not stay close.

[Branford Marsalis]

No, there's no. I mean, there really is no relationship. But it wasn't like out of disrespect. It was just like we could. We didn't have the album. So, like, you sending me, that was like, awesome. I was like, this is. This is crazy.

[Matthew Morin]

And I had no idea about his career, to be perfectly honest, because, like, I'm not like a sports person. And then like, I get a random call. It's like, hey, man, this is like George from. From Oklahoma City. Thunder. I work with the Thunder for Sam Presti. Sam's gonna be in town like next week and he'd love to, like, meet up with you. Just wondering what your schedule is. And I was like, Oklahoma City. I was like, is that a college team? Is that. I know Sam's like doing basketball. And then we reconnected and when he came to Boston, he, he a club that I was playing at. He was telling me how like has always had a very long vision and he'd just see like talented players who might not be like the, the superstar, but he could see something in them and see how he was going to develop that. He made all of his players take a financial management and awareness course. He was like, yeah, man, you know, everything's so expensive. You know, a gallon of milk is like, you know, so he's still. And he's, you know, Sam grew up in a, in a working class family like his. He grew up with a single mother, mom was a nurse. You know, he really worked hard for, for everything he's. He's got.

[Pablo Torre]

You just told a story before about Sam talking about like the price of milk.

[Matthew Morin]

That's actually hilarious. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And the album's name is Milk Money. But not unlike Sam Presti in the Milk Money era, I also had a vision and I decided to not give this up.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

And I tumbled further and further down the Sam Presti Jazz Rabbit Hole. Listening to the eight tracks on Milk Money on like a truly disturbingly endless loop.

[Wyatt Cenac]

The Jazz Rabbit Hole sounds like. That sounds like the, the music show I need to make.

[Pablo Torre]

It really does.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Hey everybody, welcome to the Jazz Rabbit Hole. It's your host, Wyatt's anac. Tonight we're gonna go down the rabbit hole of the CTI record label. That's right. You're listening to the Jazz Rabbit Hole with Wyatt Cenac.

[Pablo Torre]

And on tonight's show, my guest Pablo Torre is going to text Thunder guard Alex Caruso at 1:15am the night before Game 2 of the NBA Finals to ask if he knew about his boss's jazz rap albums. And he will not respond. I'm sorry. To Alex Caruso, by the way. Like, I get it. It's just, I, I just couldn't. I was like, again, I'm a dog with a bone on this thing.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Did you go to Alex Caruso because you thought that maybe somewhere in Alex Caruso is a, is a, is a, is a 20something white rapper. It's interesting you went to him and. Yeah, you know, not Isaiah Hartenstein.

[Pablo Torre]

Didn't wanna, didn't wanna, you know, profile in any particular way.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

Felt very important that I consult Alex Crusoe specifically.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But I didn't give up. I continue to scour the Internet to find anybody, musicians particularly that Sam Presti might actually have stayed in touch with. Because I wanted to know what happened to that guy.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Who got buried by his own design. And I spotted another name, a name that I do think, Wyatt, you would recognize as, again, a musicologist and expert in this particular era. And this mystery guest did, in fact respond to my request for comment by agreeing to an interview. And we're gonna meet that person, Wyatt.

[Wyatt Cenac]

After the break on the Jazz Rabbit Hole with my special guest, Pablo Torre.

[Pablo Torre]

You're vaguely familiar with what I do, I guess.

[Paul]

Yes. I found out. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Amazing. When I cold tweeted you, I was like, I had the desperation of a man at the bottom of a rabbit hole. I don't know if you could smell that on me.

[Paul]

Oh, man, it was too early for that. I was like, damn, it's 6:30.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I was in the bathroom when I tweeted Branford Marsalis. For the record.

[Paul]

Hey, it works.

[Pablo Torre]

Could you introduce yourself?

[Paul]

My name is Branford Marsalis. I play music.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, come on. That's it, bruh.

[Paul]

I'm a musician. That's it.

[Pablo Torre]

Multi Grammy winner, Right Thing saxophonist, Fight the Power, public enemy in 89.

[Paul]

None of that. None of that.

[Pablo Torre]

Branford.

[Paul]

You know, it's like Sam. It's like Sam.

[Pablo Torre]

So whether or not you realize this, there are a zillion ways that you may have already heard the legendary Tenor saxophone of 64 year old Branford Marsalis, who, beyond all the other stuff I already mentioned, has played with Miles Davis and Sting and the Grateful Dead and the Tonight Show Band, among many, many others. But I also remember Branford maybe most vividly from his cameo on the Fresh Prince of bel Air in 1994.

[Paul]

Why don't you put that down and come sit next to. Oh my God, 30 years ago. Now that's pretty cool. How's that? Everything cool? Great.

[Pablo Torre]

It worked perfect, Bradford.

[Paul]

Good, good. I'm glad you liked it. So look, I'm off like a dirty Sherman. Hey, peace with two fingers, man. I can hide behind the couch and go, yeah, sure, I can do that.

[Pablo Torre]

But the reason Branford Marsalis is friends with Sam Presti, it turns out, goes a lot deeper than jazz and rap.

[Paul]

I mean, first of all, it is entertainment at the end of the day. But there are people in this profession who genuinely love what they do. And then there are other people who genuinely love the attention that can be generated for them because of what it is that they do. When I'm meeting other musicians, I never lead off with how many records I've sold. I know people who do, hey, man, how many units did you sell? I mean, are you serious? I mean, that's the conversation, because, you know, I'm from New Orleans, I'm a country boy, but New York is a city for very ambitious people. And so I would say, so, how you doing, bro? How you doing? And then they would proceed to tell me every gig that they have that month. And then I would say, well, that's cool, but I didn't really ask you what you were doing, I asked you how you're doing. My passion is for the thing, not for the notoriety.

[Pablo Torre]

And that, to be clear, is also the sort of New Yorker and podcaster that I personally would like to be. Which brings us back to basketball and jazz. These two institutions that are often compared to each other and happen to be colliding right now, as the Oklahoma City Thunder, built by Sam Presti, and the Indiana Pacers, coached by Rick Carlile, are quietly making their case for a very jazz inflected championship. Even more than if the actual Utah Jazz had made it.

[Paul]

In music, there's the visible part, like the solo. People see the solo or the singer, but then there's the invisible part. And that's when the musicians have to use their skills to support a person who is in the front. Now, that is called comping. C O M P I N G Piano players do it, guitar players do it. Sometimes the horns do it, but it's like in horn parts, the horn parts support the singer. That's comping. Thanks to Bruce Hornsby, I have a sometimes physical chat, but a lot of texting between Rick Carlisle and myself. Rebound fought for loose bridges has got it. Clock is ticking.

[Pablo Torre]

Out of bounds. It's Indiana's ball with point two to go.

[Paul]

So after game one against the Knicks, I wrote Rick and said, man, I've never seen anything like that. You know, your kids are amazing. And he writes back and says, you really like these guys. They love comping as much as they love soloing. And I was like, this is the hippest dude on the damn planet. Damn, that's just not something you're gonna see in a conversation with somebody outside of the music business. But smart cat, man, he always has been.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I'm finding out so much already, which is to say that the NBA Finals of the year 2025 AD are also the Branford Marsalis finals. Because you have this weigh in to both sides.

[Paul]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy, but this.

[Pablo Torre]

Is the scent I've been tracking is that you had a connection to Sam Presti. Because of the research and the amount of just rabbit hole diving I've been doing, I didn't realize that you also knew Rick Carlisle.

[Paul]

Yeah, Sam's a jazz fan and Rick is a music fan. But Sam, he's a music fan too, but he's a jazz fan. And we struck up conversations. And he's also talked to Wynton about jazz and the relationship between team building, like building a team, is very similar to building a band. You have to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each player. And you have to set up a construct so that you challenge the musicians to eliminate their weaknesses, where the impulse will always be to double down on one's strengths. Because it is certainly much easier to enforce what you already know than to go through the painstaking reality of addressing the things you're not very adept at. And it's pretty amazing when you look at both of those teams and how they've been constructed. We keep inventing. Ever since LeBron went to Miami, the big three, they don't really have a big three.

[Pablo Torre]

No. That's the other story of this finals, beyond the Jazz, is literally this.

[Paul]

They're teams.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[Paul]

Because even though Shai is the mvp, he doesn't have the Persona where he's like, I'm the straw that stirs the drink. He's not on that vibe.

[Pablo Torre]

The Big three thing was the basic math. It was top heavy. And what you're seeing in a way that I didn't consider actually till you articulated it, was the way in which jazz as a metaphor is actually even more meaningful. Because jazz is a metaphor historically, in my understanding, had always been basketball is free flowing and improvisational. All of the sort of like flowery language. You're talking about something interesting. More interesting than that, to me, you're talking about guys need to get a hold of their ego and sublimate themselves for the greater mission.

[Paul]

Absolutely. And it's free flowing. As long as everybody understands what the construct is and what the rules are. In jazz, you have a basic chord. It's the same chord you hear all the time. Like G7. Every song has a G7. And then there are notes above that where you can extend the harmony. Piano players just doing that. And I'm like, why are you doing that? He goes, well, man, it's in the harmony. I said, but it's not in the song, bro. Harmonically, it's correct. Musically, that was some dumb. You just played. And they tend to be pissed off when you say it because they only know how to play one way, by.

[Pablo Torre]

The way, now I get why you and Rick Carlisle get along. I get it. I know enough about Rick to know how you guys may be bonding.

[Paul]

Man, he's smart as hell and he don't care. I love him.

[Pablo Torre]

He's brilliant and he does not care. Those are the two scouting reports I often get on Coach Carlisle.

[Paul]

I love it.

[Pablo Torre]

What kind of a critic are you?

[Paul]

I'm the worst. They ask my colleagues. They hate when I show up, but I've learned to keep my mouth closed so they like me more now. But, you know, they used to come and say, well, what do you think? And I'd tell them, and then they'd be like, man, you're an get out of here. But if you ever went to a string quartet concert and watch, they are making constant communication with one another. Like if you watch the NFL combine and they say, this guy can run the 40 in 4.2 seconds. That's amazing. And his vertical leap is 4. Can he play football? And that's the music thing. It's like, man, can you play music? It's great that you can play the hell out of the saxophone. There's a lot of saxophone players who play saxophone better than me. I'm not trying to be humble. I know this to be true. But I play music better than them, so I win.

[Pablo Torre]

It's part of why Sam Presti is fascinating, because Sam Presti beyond his discretion and privacy, which is now very well known. I actually am curious as to your read of him as just a guy that you'd never met before.

[Paul]

Sam loves his job, first and foremost. He doesn't love what it brings him. He loves that job. And the thing I love about him is if you didn't know what he did, you wouldn't know what he does. He wouldn't introduce it. He'd never bring it up. That's my kind of dude right there. They would come to New Orleans to beat up on my lowly pelicans. The play by play announcer Joel Myers is a buddy of mine, also a big jazz fan. And we spent a lot of time talking about records and we were going to meet for dinner and Sam found out and said, hey, man, I'm coming to dinner with y' all. I'm like, wow, don't you have more pressing matters to do, like what you're doing now? And you know, and he was in New Orleans and he came through and it was great. And we had a meal and we talked about nothing about basketball. And there's, there's no. There's nothing else to the story.

[Pablo Torre]

What is your scouting report on Sam the musician? As you've come to understand it, he's.

[Paul]

Never come in and sit in with us, so there's no way to judge. I mean, I just know he's a big fan of the music. I didn't even know he played drums. Perfect example. He never brought it up. He never brought it up.

[Pablo Torre]

That's wild.

[Paul]

Had no idea.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so I'm going to do something Branford. Because what I've been doing. Yes. At the bottom of this rabbit hole. Maybe you now know where this is going.

[Paul]

I don't know yet.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. So I've been scouring the earth and the Internet.

[Paul]

Oh, you found something.

[Pablo Torre]

I just want to play you something.

[Paul]

Yeah, man.

[Pablo Torre]

And again, you're you unvarnished nightmare critic for anyone who sees you in the audience. I'm going to play you something, all right? And I just like us to both listen and then we can discuss. So would you mind?

[Paul]

No, I would not mind. Sam. I'm a rip you, bro. I'm ripping you, man. Gotta do it.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just need to acknowledge here as a human being who makes things how absolutely terrifying what I'm about to do must be for Mike Tucker and Matt Moran and Sam Presti and the rappers in that recording studio in New Hampshire in the mid-90s. Because asking one of the greatest living musicians to critique the long forgotten music that you had made before you were legally allowed to rent a car is kind of a nightmare, I must admit. Especially if you are an extraordinarily private NBA executive who never wanted anybody to hear this. And especially when Branford Marsalis is self scouting report as a critic once again is this.

[Paul]

I'm the worst. Ask my colleagues. They hate when I show up.

[Pablo Torre]

But now it is time for Branford Marsalis to find out. The album is called Milk Money. Sam Presti is the artist and this is the introductory track.

[Paul]

Excellent. Music transcends race, religion, sex. It transcends all of that. It's a reflection of the human heart. I mean, that was like some Buddy Rich man. He was just firing, going all over so he can play. Somebody can decipher that for, you know, say what it means. You dig what it means. You flip. I mean, flip for real.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. That's what I tried to do is, you know, because I had all the. The music in my head that I wanted to do, but I had to track everybody down, you know, so what I only way I knew how to do it was just get to people that were close to me that I thought could carry out, you know, and kind of expand on the things that I was thinking about. So I got Mark Panaski from way back, Dave Wolfberg from way back.

[Pablo Torre]

What's running through your mind?

[Paul]

Sam understands what the job is and he keeps the beat. There's a few guys that would play that groove and add extra things, really nerdy extra things, like playing parts on upbeats or playing against. Because it calls attention to them in a certain way. And all the musicians go, woo. You know, so. And every time I hear it, I'm like, why are they doing that? Just play the gig, bro.

[Unknown Speaker]

James Blackwell doing some cuts. Got Matt by stuff from Jersey with his man ISO from Philly. It's a flow of a track that we did, you know, and. And it's. It's tough because I didn't want to overstep my boundaries because I'm not a hip hop purist. I'm not a jazz purist.

[Paul]

It's more R and B, but it has solos and it uses interesting chord structure, so it falls more in line with jazz than anything else. But the, you know, the trumpet player was clearly has been checking out Miles. Cause he has the muted trumpet, and he's playing it the way Miles plays it. I just love the fact that Sam can keep a groove that sounds like the 90s, the 90s vibe.

[Pablo Torre]

I demanded to mention that you played sax on Fight the Power.

[Paul]

Oh, yeah, that was. You know, that was Spike Lee's idea. When Spike called me, we were neighbors and.

[Pablo Torre]

In Fort Greene.

[Paul]

Yeah. I think the most important part of it for him is that we were. We were friends and neighbors before he became famous. And he said, I want you to play on this song with Public Enemy. I'm like, you're kidding. Okay, great.

[Stephen A. Smith]

It's gonna be great.

[Paul]

It's gonna be great. It's gonna fight the power. But it was. It was Spike's idea, man.

[Pablo Torre]

I got two more tracks to play for you, if that's sure. Our next track in music class with Branford marsalis. It's titled 16 Baltimore Ave.

[Paul]

So two songs, both by James Brown. One is called Cold Sweat and the other one's called Super Bad. And it's kind of like a mashup of those two. The saxophone player was a big fan of Mike Brecker's. Michael Brecker was a guy that. He used to play that way too many notes, though, for that groove. And when I first got to New York, I was more of An R B player than a jazz player. And there's a scale called the pentatonic scale. And that's all I could play, was the pentatonic scale. And the first thing he played was the pentatonic scale. And I went, oh, that's me. That's where I live.

[Pablo Torre]

You're at the front of the class, and this band now looks to you and they say, professor, what did we just do here? You say, I would play records for them.

[Paul]

They're more efficient ways to do what you're doing. And I would certainly play the James Brown records. There's an instrumental record that James Brown's band did. It was the JB's. That was the name of the record, the JB's. And they had a song called Pass the Peas on there. It was really great. And then there's another record that the trombonist Fred Wesley did called Fred Wesley. And the horny horns. And they really do know how to play that style of music and still leave enough space for the music to breathe rather than flood the zone with flurries of 16th notes. But the rest of the band was very disciplined. I mean, Sam played the parts. He didn't really try to deviate. The bass player stayed with it. The piano player soloing leaves a little bit to be desired. But everybody, you know, it was. Man, it was good. It was good. I enjoyed it.

[Pablo Torre]

I got one more track for you.

[Paul]

All right.

[Pablo Torre]

This one I think you may be familiar with. So. So now I feel like a cruel scientist.

[Paul]

Yeah, I want to know yeah, I want to know what you think Let me know what you think.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, look, so here's what I know, right? That's Coltrane.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a standard. This is something that. Yes. As I listened to it, I began to feel bad playing it for Branford Marsalis.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Why?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm imagining them in the box that I'm in Watching your face and I began to just sweat a bit so. Because you're also, by the way, for people who are not familiar, of course, with what you have also done, rearranging that song. Could you just fill us in? I'm demanding that you fill us in on, like, your familiarity with this song.

[Paul]

Oh, yeah. It's a song I wouldn't play, first.

[Pablo Torre]

Of all, because.

[Paul]

It'S just me. It's like one of the running jokes we have in the group is that bands that lean towards rock and roll or R B, every time that they play what is considered a jazz tune, it's always in a minor key. I don't know why, but it's either Mr. PC or it's the Miles Davis song. So what.

[Pablo Torre]

What about the drum solo in that one?

[Paul]

Well, the thing that was most interesting about the drum solo is that that was called. That's the thing we call Trading Force. Like the. Cause the song is a 12 bar form. I'm trying to simplify it. And it's in 4, 4. So for. For you folks out there, if you count 1, 2, 3, 4, when you get to the next one, that's a new bar. So it's 1, 2, 3, 4. 2, 3, 2, 3, 4, 4. And they were playing four bar phrases. The saxophone player would play for four bars and then Sam would play for four. Now, a lot of times when drummers would play that, they always make this big cymbal crash on the first beat that the saxophone starts to play again. I thought it was really cool that he didn't because the other way is just super cliche to me. And it was really cool that he didn't. He just went swing. He was like, oh, that's kind of cool. That was a great idea. I mean, Sam, go ahead, man. Way to think it through. But it's good, man. I know he's going to be mad at you for playing this for me. It's cool, man. I'm a cop. The record, Milk, Milk money.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's gonna. I might be the only supplier on the Internet at this point, but I'm gonna get you that copy, man.

[Paul]

Bro, I know you now, so you gotta hook me up. It's cool.

[Pablo Torre]

But there is one more aspect near the end here that Branford brought up that I do think is worth mentioning. Because a story about an executive's secret former life as a drummer at a liberal arts college also relates to something that Branford and his late father, Ellis, the musician who most inspired Branford and his brother Wynton, would talk about a lot. And it feels especially relevant today.

[Paul]

The essential destruction of the liberal arts college in the United States was one of the worst things that he felt could ever happen. Because in the 1950s, there was no such thing as pre law. So a lot of these lawyers were taking theater and reading Shakespeare. And it brings a whole different side out of you. But now it's like, you know, pre law law, premed med. And then they say, oh, doctors don't really communicate like they. Like they used to. Well, they don't learn the stuff that they used to. They don't understand the value of poetry and the value of a liberal arts education. And liberal arts colleges are dwindling everywhere. The fact that Sam is an executive and he also had this music career where he was playing music, it's going to make him a better executive, you know, because everything you learn, you carry with you.

[Pablo Torre]

All of which reminds me of something, something else that Dara, the thunder superfan, the crate digger who found this physical used CD and enabled this entire episode had found out.

[Dara Mirzai]

We always say, like, impress who we trust, right? He makes a trade, he makes a draft pick. We just sort of blindly believe it. Even if going into the daft, we had no idea who this guy was. But on the same sense, like, we don't know who he is as a person. Everything he says, it sounds like he's rehearsed it over 20 times. I like this album because it's sort of him personally, to a certain sense, like, yes. I hate to say this, but I think like Daryl Morey, if this was him, he'd be like, should I re release the deluxe edition or something?

[Paul]

You know what I mean?

[Dara Mirzai]

This is some guy that he's been the only constant in this organization. But I don't think I've ever really seen him laugh at anything, you know?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And to be honest, I have no Idea how the NBA's executive of the year, one of the best executives in all of sports, is gonna react once he hears this episode, that he did not want to exist. And I have no idea about that because Sam Presti, as was entirely expected, did decline to comment. Which brings our music documentary here back to how we started.

[Wyatt Cenac]

What'd you find out today, Pablo?

[Pablo Torre]

I would like to tell someone that I know in real life. Hey, do you have that sax on you? And to immediately be serenaded by.

[Wyatt Cenac]

All right, well, you asked for it.

[Pablo Torre]

That is so much better than I thought it would be. We've turned the tables on Sam Presti now. We have scouted the young Sam Presti.

[Paul]

Oh, yeah.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you for doing that, Branford.

[Paul]

I hope he's not mad at me. Well, hope he's not mad at you, but it was a pleasure to do it. It was a pleasure to listen to the music and talk about my man. So it's cool.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Another line in your bio is that you're now officially a Pablo Torre Finds out correspondent.

[Paul]

Now, see, that I'd brag about. See, now see, that's the thing. I name drop that. Everything else, nah. But I name drop that.

[Wyatt Cenac]

You'Ve been listening. Pablo Torre finds out a subsidiary of Wyatt Snacks Jazz Rabbit hole.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait a minute.

[Wyatt Cenac]

Brought to you by Meadowlark Media oh, there it is.