Sam (4:11)

It's everywhere. So you're. You're. You like music, You're a little bit of a nerd, but you're a great athlete. And you can hide in the confidence of. Everyone thinks the great athlete is popular. But is this really who I am? Aren't I more than this?

Darren Waller (4:24)

Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of. Yeah. Realizing, like, I was very good at sports growing up, and that kind of, like, kind of gave me some inclusion into spaces. But a lot of times it was like, yeah, why do you listen to music like that? Why do you dress like that?

Sam (4:37)

But it's not the real you that's getting the inclusion. Right. It's just the football player. It's just the performer. It's not the things about you that you actually want seen. It's the things that people think you are, which is there's the football player guy, and you want to be seen as something you want the rest of you seen.

Darren Waller (4:51)

Yeah. And it's like, the representative of me that I want these people to see. And that's as early as elementary school, middle school, and on into high school. And so I feel like in middle school was really rough for me. Cause that's where I started to start to act out and, like, oh, I want to act out to, like, you know, kind of gain attention. But also, it's like, the dudes that get all the girls are, you know, acting bad and doing a bunch of stuff. And so, like, I kind of want to be like them because I don't really get much attention from girls. Like, I want to be cool. And it's like, that brought me out of really trying to figure out who I am authentically as a kid, you know, so there's so much pressure in those times on kids to be socially accepted, which I think is a basic human need. But at the same time, I felt like I went above and beyond, try to be accepted to the point where it was just like, I don't really know what I want to pursue, because I want to pursue the things that get me validation in the eyes of.

Sam (5:44)

Other people instead of yourself. Right. Like, so explain to me this. You're covering a lot of ground here. So when you say you're that. That's a big umbrella. My parents both came from an addictive background. What does that mean?

Darren Waller (5:56)

So it means for them, they. They themselves didn't take on those addictive qualities, but there's almost like a level of codependence, because it's like, in those households, you got to find ways to, you know, survive, to cope, and to almost disassociate in ways from that. And so does this mean that your.

Sam (6:18)

Grandparents have some addiction issues, or does it. Yes, on both sides.

Darren Waller (6:24)

Both my dad's parents and my mom's dad, so my maternal grandfather.

Sam (6:29)

And whatever it is they've learned in the patterns of their upbringing on how they keep it together and stay away from the addictive stuff. It's all part of their learning process. That's the environment you're growing up in.

Darren Waller (6:40)

Yeah. And so the main thing is there are so many. Like I said, there's so many positive qualities that came from it. But one of the things I think lacked was, like, a place for, like, emotional understanding and acceptance and. Cause I never really felt like there was a. In my home. It was like, my emotions where I could be able to express them. I don't think they were ever. I mean, there were times where it was just like, you know, kind of like the. You know, like, my dad one time was like, just like, cry. Why you cry so much? Like, one experience like that, and that kind of like, made me be like, all right. Well, all right. Like, I'm not gonna cry, and kind of hold things in and just. Just carry them to Myself, so that just like. Because the households they grew up in, there probably wasn't space for them to necessarily.

Sam (7:23)

So in this case, this doesn't have very much to do with addiction stuff, but your dad is just saying, be more masculine than that. Whatever it is that, like, what. What are you doing? Why are you. Why. Why are you crying? Yeah, but push it down with. Just don't, don't.

Darren Waller (7:39)

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like it was, like, an experience where, you know, I'm sure my dad had a bunch on his plate at the time, and it was probably a time where I was, like, crying a lot and just, like, very sensitive and just, like, in one moment, you can be like, all right, like, what is this? Like, why are you doing this so much? But for me, that was like, oh, I shouldn't be like this. And so from there, it was. It turned into a lot of just, like, stuffing things down and, you know, by, like, 14. Fifteen was when I kind of got into drugs and stuff like that.

Sam (8:10)

Well, so. So how does this happen? Because I. I've talked before on our show about. I don't understand how, for example, Drew Barrymore. What would have to be happening her life for her to have a cocaine dependency at 12 years old. Like, I just. Especially if you're coming from a household that otherwise has plenty of disciplines in it. Right. So, like, how does that happen if it's not an absence of supervision? It's just. It happens. How does it happen that you get to drug dependency by 15 when you've. You're. You've got caring parents who are trying to give a good environment for you, and you feel like you're doing the other. All the other things correctly. But there's a part of you that doesn't know at 15 that you're actually hiding. And some of this feels inauthentic because you're not grown enough to understand what the hell's going on with all your feelings.

Darren Waller (8:54)

Right. Yeah, Just around that time, just very highly anxious from just trying to be so hyper vigilant, like, I was talking about, and, you know, just depressed, like, not really feeling, like, a lot of things that I wanted to see go my way were going my way. Football was one of the things that I leaned on as, like, okay, I'm good at this. But then freshman, sophomore year of high school, like, everybody got bigger than me, and I was, like, really small and hadn't really hit, like, the weight room or anything yet. And so I was kind of, like, fragile. And my freshman year rode the bench and My sophomore year of high school, I was hurt most of the years. I had, like, this elbow surgery. And so I was like, dang, football's not working out either. And just like, kind of in a low point of, like, I don't really enjoy life, per se. And I never really was somebody that was like, I wanted to get into drugs. I kind of knew, like, okay, these aren't necessarily good from what my parents had told me, but it was presented to me in a way. Like, my friends had gone in their parents medicine cabinets and found, like, hydrocodone pills and, like, painkillers. And for me, it was like, I don't feel good. And they presented to me in a way that it would make me feel good. So I was like, I'm gonna try it. And then it was like, instantly like, yes, like, this is how I want to feel. And it wasn't really doing anything crazy. It was just like popping a couple pills and watching a movie in the basement.

Sam (10:13)

I mean, all you're describing, wait a minute. At 15 years old, I can take a pill that will make me go from feeling sad and lonely to feeling good. Okay. There's not a lot more thought than that.

Darren Waller (10:24)

Right? I'm in. Yeah. And then, you know that you started to get more frequent. It went from like, every now and then to like, all right, every weekend. And then it was like, all right, a few days during the week. And then a year after that, there was a kid that was on my football team who was like, him. He sold weed. And he was like, if you pick me up and take me to school every day, we can smoke a blunt before we go to school. And I was like, sign me up. And then from there, started drinking, got interested, like, Bud lights and sky vodkas in high school and, like, spring break and stuff like that.

Sam (10:58)

And it's fun, and it helps you interact with others and you feel less lonely. And it acts as a band aid for you not understanding that you've got something screaming inside you that it needs addressing. But at this point, you're not even thinking that you can be introspective, right?

Darren Waller (11:17)

No, not at all. Cause I didn't have any awareness at the time of, like, okay, in order to heal this and effectively put this behind me or grow from this, I have to sit with that discomfort and kind of face it. I had no awareness at the time. It was just like, oh, if I just move it out the way and kind of stuff it away and do this and feel good, this works. This is the formula. And at that same time, going to like, my junior year, senior year in high school is like, when I started to grow. Then the athletic opportunities started to present themselves. And then it's like, you know, girls start to come into the picture. You're more popular. So it's like, okay, this is just my formula. This works for me. And my grades are still good in school, and I'm still like, yes, ma', am. No, sir. Like, looking people in the eye. And, you know, everybody thinks highly of me. And so, like, this is just part of who I am. And so I'm just gonna keep doing this.

Sam (12:10)

You were presenting perfectly. Right. You had gotten very good at the performance of showing what an amazing thing you were to stand in front of people and be perfectly dishonest.

Darren Waller (12:21)

Mastered it very early on and.

Sam (12:25)

And got applause at every turn for an inauthentic version of yourself.

Darren Waller (12:29)

Yes.

Sam (12:30)

And so how did you get good at the performance? Where did you realize, like, you could trick your parents as well? Correct.

Darren Waller (12:36)

Yeah.

Sam (12:37)

So you're, at this point, you're an accomplished liar as a teenager because you've got to learn to be right.

Darren Waller (12:42)

Yeah. To understand, like, the lying and almost like kind of like moving in the shadows. There's a couple stories I have to share. When I was younger, I probably want to say both of these experiences. I was around like 8, 9 years old, and the first one was my parents would tell us, like, okay, you guys can drink one soda a day. Other than that, we're drinking water. And so I was like, okay. And then my parents, one day, I guess they went into my room for something, and I think it was my dad, he looked under the bed and there was like 50 soda cans under my bed. And so I'm like, drinking more than the one soda can a day. And I'm hiding under my bed like, oh, I'm getting away with this. And then another. Another one was, I was a huge wrestling fan, like WWE fan when I was a kid, like, Die Hard. And I saw they sold, like, action figures and stuff like that. And so one day I was like, oh, if I can memorize my parents credit card information, when the credit card's out, I can go online, order these action figures. And if I get home from the bus, I can beat the mailman home and get the wrestling action figures before my parents see them. And I got home and one day and the wrestling action figures were stacked up in the house, my parents are like, what the fuck is this?

Sam (13:50)

Right. Right.

Darren Waller (13:51)

So it's like that performing stuff like that in public was What I did to, you know, gain validation and stuff like that. But it was also like a shadow side to that, to where it was like very early on I was already, already trying to be sneaky and move like that. And like, you know, once I started like doing drugs and stuff, it was like creeping in, taking money out of my mom's purse and just doing things like that. So there was like a, like a darker side to that behavior too.

Sam (14:15)

Was there shame about it? Were you paying attention? Like, did you think you had a problem or did you think you had it under control?

Darren Waller (14:22)

I mean, I thought I had it. I was convinced that I had it under control and was under that illusion all the way up until I started seeing the consequences in the NFL for my behavior that started hitting the news really big. So that was, I mean, you're talking most of my life I was under the illusion of I'm in control. I mean I got good grades, I'm going places athletically, I treat people well. Like I've checked all the boxes that everybody told me that I should check as a growing young person. So what is wrong? There's nothing wrong with it.

Sam (14:54)

Well, it's just crazy that you were fooling everybody though, right? That it's not until the NFL starts snooping around. It's not like you're a six round pick, right? So like they, they have to background and take a look at everything you're doing. But it's not like you're one of the, the giant investments, but you could have fooled just about anyone until they come around with their detective work and it's like, wait a minute, you might.

Darren Waller (15:14)

Have a problem, right? And then there was also like times in college too because I was suspended from my college team twice. I failed two of the three drug tests, like three strikes year out drug tests from the ncaa. Pretty sure I failed my third one.

Sam (15:30)

But that's the only reason you were a six round pick, right?

Darren Waller (15:34)

I think it's a combination of that. And then also we ran like the triple option offense when I was in college. So I mean, you know football stats, like a thousand yards is a good receiving year. I didn't have a thousand yards my four years combined. But it's like the plays that where they did throw me the ball were like big plays. And all the most of the plays that I made were against like NFL level competition. Like when we played like the Florida State was really good when I was in college and Georgia and Clemsons and games, like that was where most of my production came and so scouts probably watch other people and being like, oh wait, who is this guy over here making plays against these first round type of talents. So I think it was like the lack of like the not really much production and with the red flags as they label it was probably the reason why I was six round. I think I probably would have went undrafted, but I ran a fast 40.

Sam (16:26)

But anybody can watch you play, watch you. Anybody who watched you with the Raiders running through a secondary would say that is a majestically athletic, gifted human being who can't be covered by other great athletes like that. I would have assumed that you coming out of college were some version of what I saw with the Raiders.

Darren Waller (16:44)

Yeah, I mean it kind of blew me away because the Ravens drafted me in sixth round and they had did an interview with John Harbaugh after my career kind of started to take off and he was like, yeah, we had him like first round grade. And I was like what? I never even, that never even crossed my mind that people had me rated that high or saw that much in me at the time because I just didn't really have that level of confidence or because like you mentioned the shame, like a lot of that stuff kind of followed me around. So it was like kind of tough to build a level of confidence in yourself when that shame is always there and you're always trying to like you're either feeling the shame or trying to push the shame away by putting something in your body.

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Darren Waller (18:38)

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Darren Waller (19:29)

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Darren Waller (19:32)

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Minimum odds required. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio limited Time Offer. Well, it sounds to me like you're wandering around the earth sort of as a gentle, tender human being who doesn't quite know himself yet. And you're medicating the fact that you kind of know deep down without having the ability to put a name on it, oh, I'm a fraud. I'm li. I'm lying to everybody all the time about everything.

Darren Waller (20:02)

Yeah, Correct.

Sam (20:04)

And you. It's hard to live with yourself inside. It's certainly hard to love. Love yourself. Like the things that I've been impressed about, hearing you talk about since then is on the other side of that pain. You have grown to the place where you realize that you had to go through that pain so that you can be gentle with the human being that you like more now than you did. And so where did you learn some of that stuff? But I also want to go back to so you're in college and you fool people. Until when? When are you fooled because you're failing drug tests? If you're failing Drug tests. Now people are going to say, even if you're functional and disciplined in other ways, oh, this person, this person, they might not have a problem. They're not telling the truth all the time either. They're not quite as impeccable as he looks when. As he presents.

Darren Waller (20:46)

Right. Yeah. Double life was a lot of the, the terms that were used throughout my college career and like the first part of my NFL career. But yeah, in college there's a program to when you start to fail drug tests. So they put me with like a sports psychologist and they have me like talking to the sports psychologist and it's kind of like, you know, you can kind of keep those people at arm's length. That's just kind of what I got good at doing.

Sam (21:12)

Oh, you can perform for them too. You could. You're just going, you can entertain yourself in therapy if you're as smart as you are.

Darren Waller (21:18)

Yeah. And then it's like this. After the second test, they started sending me to like these outpatient rehab programs to where like three nights a week I would go to basically like a rehab place and they would teach you about addiction, all this stuff. And there's like these sharing groups and therapies and all that. And it's like I can give those people the runaround of like, okay, yeah, like, you sign this contract of like, you're not gonna, you're gonna be sober for like the six week program or whatever it was. And it's like I would sign the contract and it's like I'm going getting high as soon as I leave. And that continued on throughout college. And it's just like, yeah, all these people were trying to help me and trying to figure out, okay, like, what is going on here and zeroing in their focus on me. But I'm just like, you know, dodging and trying to find any way possible to allow myself to keep doing what I've been doing.

Sam (22:08)

But also great at that. Right? Not that you think you're great at it and are lying to yourself. You're consistently fooling everybody. Correct parent, everyone who cares about you. Stealing from purses. All of it has an explanation and all of it, at the end of it, you're charming you, the inauthentic you, and you look back at that person and are kind and gentle to that person with forgiveness through the clarity of.

Darren Waller (22:36)

Retrospect or much, much more. So now there was, there was a. I was in San Diego, I think it was like right before or right after my divorce, and I was doing a sound Bath. A really good friend of mine, Donnie, we went and did the sound bath in San Diego. And when I was in the sound bath, for some reason, it brought up the earlier experiences in my life. And I'd always look back on myself and I would be like, I was just this fucked up kid that was just always getting in trouble and always doing these things always. But I was never able to look at that part of myself as like. Like you were just describing, like, this gentle human being, like, trying to figure out how to navigate the world and find authenticity in myself. And like, it was just, like, a lot of pain and a lot of shame present that was keeping me from doing that. I wasn't like this. I wasn't this fucked up kid. And in that sound bath, I was able to, like, connect to that. I started, like, crying, like, after the sound bath was over. Like, people started, like, they had, like, food there and people were just, like, talking about, oh, how much of a great experience it was. And I was like, crying for the first time since that experience I told you about, where it was like, oh, I shouldn't be crying when I was a kid.

Sam (23:47)

Oh, you got the release from a sound bath that you had pushed down since your dad made you feel like not enough of a man for crying the first time.

Darren Waller (23:54)

Yeah. And I had to leave. I just walked around, like, Encinitas. I just walked. When I walked around the city and was just like. To myself and being like, wow. I never once looked at that version of myself with any type of kindness or curiosity or. Or love. It was just always like, shaming that kid because it was like, you know, I grew up with, like, my. My mom was like, the firm one, so she was always like, nah, we're not doing that. We're doing this, like, to try to get us to be the best versions of ourselves. So it's like I kind of adopted that to myself and, like, I. And that kind of translated into, like, the relationship I had with God. I seen God was just like, you keep doing this, you're going to hell, type of. And so it was always like, I adopted that shame into, like, the inner parts of myself as opposed to. But that experience was the beginning of, like, nah. Like, I wasn't trying to do harm. I was really trying to do good, but I was just coping with the difficulties I was facing in the best way that I could.

Sam (24:48)

I don't know how many alternative forms of healing you get into or how much of the unknown you partake in, but when you say the sound bath Are you articulating for us the idea that something about the sound and the vibrations summoned something from inside you that you would have had no access to and lubricated you with the release of the repressions of. No, I'm allowed to cry. I kind of need to. This has not been healthy the way that I've been doing this.

Darren Waller (25:13)

Yeah, because like the way that the, the sound baths work, I don't know the science behind it, somebody can probably explain it better than me, but it's like those sounds, they can like start to penetrate your body in these areas. Like almost like the, like you hear people talk about chakras, like these blockages that you have energetically in your body, they can start, you can feel them like ringing in your body and like feeling like uncomfortable, like, oh my gosh, like what is that? And then it, like it naturally, like my spirit, my mind went to that place. I wasn't sitting down, like, I'm going, my objective for this is going to that place mentally. I was not, I was just trying to have a good presence, present experience with that. But it's just like that's where my inner world took me.

Sam (25:53)

I don't mean to stereotype about football players in general because I know there are many of them who feel many different things and you would know far better than I. But if you were to go around your huddle and tell all of your teammate this story, you would get understanding or would they think you're a weirdo?

Darren Waller (26:08)

I think it's probably more accepting now. But I mean, for the large part of me, I've been in the league for over a decade now. It's like most would be like their first reaction would definitely be like, huh, like in their brain. It's just like it wouldn't connect because it's like here we are in this sport, in this industry where it's like it thrives on imposing your will on other people and showing no weakness and being strong and being tough and just violent in all these things. It's like there's not really space for that in that career path. So I, I, yeah, most would be at least be like, what? Like, no, probably not being able to connect to that in that way.

Sam (26:46)

Oh, but you know now though, that this thing that is viewed as something, as a weakness, you know, it's a strength. Like you, you know that to be open minded about these things and to take care of yourself and to recognize that you're a vulnerable, tender person with feelings who can speak them aloud, that that doesn't make you weak. That makes you strong.

Darren Waller (27:05)

Right? And on a general level, it's like you. It seems obvious, but it's like. It's also not because we're these, like, football players, but it's like there's a human in the pads and like, that human goes onto the field. The same human with the same. The same way you think the same way. Whatever you're feeling or dodging, like, you bring those things onto the field, which is what I started to realize when I went to rehab. But it's like, yeah, like, if the human being mentally, emotionally, spiritually isn't right, you can't expect to go out on the field and expect your product or how you play to just completely flip a switch and be something different. Like, that's just not the case.

Sam (27:45)

It's a bit of. I don't know if I'd say mind fuck, but be in tune physically, but not spiritually and emotionally. As if those are three different things.

Darren Waller (27:54)

Right? But it's like we're not necessarily taught in a deep and elaborate way that all those three make up the football player. Maybe even more so mentally and spiritually have even more of an impact because it's like the physical gifts with me were always there, but once I was able to step away for the first time and go to rehab and those things and come back, the physical skills weren't different. It was the inside that was different, that allowed a whole different career or what people expected of me, like, to be like. It was like night and day.

Sam (28:27)

But you thought you were happy and having fun during the. Okay, now the women are paying attention to me. I'm having football success. I'm getting high. This is the big life. For a while there. You're living the dream, correct? Or there's not happiness in there. It's just sort of empty, superficial, young guy stuff.

Darren Waller (28:44)

All the. All the moments of joy and excitement that I thought were, like, real joy and real. You know, it was all in the highs. It was all in the. The highs of getting drunk, getting high, the highs of the validation from women, the sexual experiences and. And things like that. Like, there it was just all the highs. I look back now, it's like it wasn't really, like, lasting joy. Like, that was like, a constant throughout my life. It was just like whenever I could have those highs. So it's like you're just chasing them.

Sam (29:15)

And it's empty ultimately, right? Because you get to them and then you realize, well, wait a minute. This doesn't fill the hole.

Darren Waller (29:20)

Yeah, you go up you. You go high, but then it's like, you gotta come back down in the. Coming back down is where you're withdrawing kind of from that experience. And, like, when do I get the next one?

Sam (29:31)

And so where would you point to now in retrospect and say, well, this is where the details of the usage were too problematic, where it was out of my control, where it is. Others identified more accurately what was happening with me, that I did have a problem, a problem I wasn't even acknowledging.

Darren Waller (29:50)

I would say leading up to my. So I was suspended once. My first suspension in the league was before. My second year was for four games. But after that season, which would have been before my third season, was when I got banned for a year from the NFL. That was June 2017. And leading up into that time, it was me and a teammate that I had on the Ravens who was one of the only guys I would hang out with because we would kind of do the same things. And we were talking. We would talk about, like, okay, like, we gotta, you know, we gotta stop. Like, there's a lot of, you know, good that can come before this, because it was like, looking like that was gonna be my first year as a starter or at least like a major contributor on the offense, and. But it would be like, all right, we're gonna stop. Like, I'm gonna stop Wednesday. And then Wednesday would come and be like, ah, I'm go Friday. And then Friday would come and be like, ah, through the week. Once the weekend's over, I'll.

Sam (30:37)

You know, you both were doing this. You felt like a couple of junkies who were just sort of living the same life without realizing you were junkies. You were just football players. And this is what we're doing. We're the two guys who, because we like doing this, right?

Darren Waller (30:49)

And then so over that, it was just like, dang. Like I'm saying I'm telling myself I want to stop, but I'm not able to. But I still wasn't that moment where I was able to be like, I'm not in control. It was, you know, two months after that suspension was given to me in June of 2017. It was August, August 11th. I went and got some pills from the people that we usually picked up from, and they were Fentanyl. They weren't really what I went and picked up. It was like a less lesser than what I had usually got before, but it, like, you know, I had a overdose. And coming out of that experience was. That shook me enough to my core to be like, oh, fuck. Like, you know, I'm playing with. With death here. So that was enough for me to kind of be open to, like, suggestions. And then, like, it was like, a couple days after that, the Ravens team doctor called me, and they still get my toxicology results from the drug test I'm taking. And I'm, like, just pissing dirty, like, willingly. And they're like, you know, we're scared for your life with these results. And they set up a meeting for me to meet with, like, this addiction specialist in Atlanta and then met with the addiction specialist, and then they were like, you need to go to treatment immediately for, like, you know, substances, and, like, a dual diagnosis for mental health as well. And so I was open to going to that because of what that experience, how much fear it put in me.

Sam (32:16)

Were you at all introspective before that, or are you having the introspection now forced on you? Have you just been medicating with bandages? What is a mental issue, anxiety issue? By just. I'm going to get rid of the physical pain that I feel from football and the mental pain by just using more and more of this without examining any of it. You're not. You're. You're just straight through. This is great Raiders fun. How much fun am I having with women? It's a big party. I don't know. I have a problem. And you're using. How much, at this point would you say? Like, when you say fentanyl, obviously, that's serious. Overdose, obviously serious. How are you getting into fentanyl? By accident.

Darren Waller (32:52)

So, like, you know, as you go along, like, you kind of. Like, that's why, like, people say weed is a gateway drug. It's completely true. And then it's like, because, you know, you start smoking, like, you. You smoke a half a gram blunt. That's getting you high in the beginning, but then after a while, it's like, I'm putting a. I need to put a gram in there. And then it's like, no, I need to smoke an eighth now. Now I need to smoke it. Like, it increases. So with the pills the same way, like those first hydrocodone, oxycodone pills from high school is like the 5 milligram ones. A couple of those.

Sam (33:20)

But that's still. But that's still, like, oxycodone is like, to be a 15. Using that. That's a strong starting point. Like, that's your. Your. Your tolerance levels by 20. If you're doing that every day, it's gonna reach fentanyl it's good. It's gonna get to Dilladin eventually. Like, you're gonna keep going up. Right, right.

Darren Waller (33:37)

But. And then. So by that time, it was escalated to. We're using, like, 30 milligram ones. And then it's like, if you take it orally, it probably takes like, 20ish minutes for it to kick in. But if you snort it, you're in three minutes. You're. You're. But you're buzzing strong. And so it's like, yeah, probably like three 30 milligram pills regularly. And, you know, smoking every now and then, you know, drinking, probably at that time in the league, probably like at least two, three, four times a week. So just kind of. That was the rotation.

Sam (34:13)

It's the lifestyle. Right. And so how does it become fentanyl? By accident, though.

Darren Waller (34:18)

So people that we had been going to pick up from, they were like, all right, y' all gotta be careful out here. Like, it's Baltimore. It's crazy. Like, crazy. Like, they're. They're pressing pills. They'll put a logo on a pill, but it's not what you're expecting, so you got to be careful of, you know, who you're getting this stuff from. And it's kind of just like, yeah, yeah, all right, whatever. It's not going to happen to me type of thing. And, you know, it did happen to me.

Sam (34:40)

What do you remember about the overdose? Being scared straight. What do you. What are the details that you remember about. Because I imagine at this point, you also feel a little bit bulletproof. Right. You're so young that life and death isn't. Mortality is not a consideration.

Darren Waller (34:53)

Right? Yeah. So just that day, yeah, I was gonna be moving out of my apartment the next day because I just got in my suspension. I was gonna go home and, like, live with my parents in Georgia. And so I was. My dad was gonna land later that night, and we were gonna move out the next day. And so I was like, oh, I'm just gonna go get some pills. Go to the. There was a Giant grocery store, which is in Maryland. It's, like, right around the corner from the practice facility. So I was like, I'm gonna go get these pills. I'm gonna go to the Giant, get some food. There's a liquor store right next door. I got, like, some Red Stripes, whatever the fuck I was drinking at the time. And, you know, I was just gonna go chill at my apartment, probably play some video games, and just, like, continue to pack up at my house. But when I got the pills, it was more like downtown Baltimore and snorted them on the way. Got to the parking lot at the Giant, and I put the car in park, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna go in and get out. But I opened the door and I was in gal. Like, I felt like I was just gonna, like, fall on my face on the ground. I was like, this is gonna cause a scene. This is like middle of afternoon in a grocery store parking lot. I was like, I'm just gonna, you know, cut the car off, sit here for a bit until I calm down or whatever, and then I'm gonna go in. And then it was just like. It felt like somebody just, like, pulled the plug from behind the tv. And then, like, I come back to and it's night time and I feel like I lost, like, hella weight. Like, I was like a shell of myself. And there was, like, the biggest beads of sweat I've ever seen in my life. I just like. I woke up just like, you're still.

Sam (36:24)

In the car at this point. You've just been in the parking lot. You OD'd in the parking lot and were there for how many hours? Until nighttime, just. And no one even came and got you. You were just sleeping in the car. And then you got up and drove home, or after an overdose and then.

Darren Waller (36:37)

Drove home, Just went to sleep. My dad got in. We woke up and moved the next day like it was nothing and went home.

Sam (36:47)

At this point, you were thinking about quitting football. Did it have to do with any of this? Because the first time you were. I didn't know what your relationship was with football at the time because you've had two times you've left football, and I don't know if that's you running away from yourself or running away from football. Like, this time was about the. Like this time when you were considering quitting football. What was happening? Was it around the drug use?

Darren Waller (37:10)

I think it definitely contributed to it in that. So that was my second season playing. And, you know, I was just like, you know, going through it on, like, a life level. And I was. And I was starting to have these thoughts, like, I don't know if, like, football is really helping me at all. Like, I feel like it's intensifying everything that I'm feeling to a degree. Right. And then. And so I started to share that with, like, people that are, like, you know, kind of on staff, like team psychologists or whatever, and just trying to open up to them a little bit. And then I tore my labrum, my shoulder with like a month to go in the season, and I was still. I played the last month and had surgery after the season, but I was just like, almost like in an act of. Definitely an act of self sabotage, was like, I'm just gonna take these pills and I'm just gonna fail all the drug tests until they, you know, forced me out, which they did after the minicamp and OTAs in that June suspension. It was just like, up until that point, I was just purposely failing drug tests so they could put me out of the league, as opposed to me having to say like, oh, I don't want to play football, or being vulnerable in a moment.

Sam (38:17)

You being. You being strong enough. It's just such a fascinating prison that you're describing. And I'm sorry that I'm smiling, because it sounds like a real misery, but I felt some of this with Ricky Williams when he was in the league as a personality who didn't quite fit in the league. You're sitting here and your dreams, according to just about anybody else in the world, are all coming true, and you're saying, no. This is a unique prison. It's increasing my anxieties. This is making everything that plagues me much worse. And also, as an added bonus, my body really hurts every week because the violence I'm doing is inhumane.

Darren Waller (38:55)

Precisely.

Sam (38:56)

And so you're trapped.

Darren Waller (38:57)

Yeah.

Sam (38:59)

Everyone else is telling you, you need to be. You should be happy. Look, this is the life. And you're sinking deeper and deeper into. No, this a prison. And I can only medicate it enough to fall asleep in a parking lot because I'm doing too much drugs. Because I'm not actually examining why I'm not happy. I'm not loving myself correctly.

Darren Waller (39:18)

Right? Yeah. And there's like a second iter. Like you said, the leaving football, like that one was like, I forced my way out. And then the league was like, yeah, you're out of here, buddy. Like, we don't. We don't want you here, but doing you.

Sam (39:28)

But doing you a solid by doing so. Because you feel like you don't feel strong enough. You feel like the coward who isn't strong enough to say, I don't need football. I can't. I don't want football.

Darren Waller (39:37)

Football.

Sam (39:37)

I'm not going to tell everybody, please kick me out. It's easier, right?

Darren Waller (39:41)

And then it's like that same trapped iteration was what I was feeling when I was with the Giants and left there. It was like the same thing, but just drugs weren't presence. It was still the on that emotional mental level, that same feeling of feeling trapped, just less drug induced.

Sam (40:01)

Oh, but even worse, though, because at least with the Raiders, you were. You were running through secondaries free. With the Giants, you're just sitting there taking pounding and a professional failure. Even though you're the same player, but there are a million different reasons that you're not allowed to be the same player. So now the football is also. It hurts physically and is deeply unhappy because it's nothing but failure. You're losing. And so where is the unhappiest that you were along any of that path? And I promise you, we're going to get to the parts where you break through to the other side of wherever it is the growth is. But when you look back at the entire journey, the unhappiest part is where.

Darren Waller (40:38)

I would say one with the Giants, because it's, you know, it's like, you know, I thought through my recovery and, you know, kind of reinventing my life and, you know, career, a lot of things just going super well. It's like those things still didn't fix anything. It's like. And so feeling trapped in football, trapped in, you know, very fast, like, relationship, marriage, like all those things, just being like, wow, like, like, I've learned so much, grown so much, experienced so much, but here I am still experiencing the same feelings I was feeling then. It just looks a lot different. So that just like hit deeper, even more so. And. And that's when it's like, you know, I guess I had even more courage then to be like, I'm stepping away from football because it's just like, I don't know what this is doing for me. Like, I could actually step out and say that that time, but it was like, it was definitely needed.

Sam (41:35)

Oh, but you're more of an adult then too, right? At that point, you've gone, you've. You've loved, you've lost, you've been in public, you've been shamed, you've shamed yourself. You're probably harder on yourself than anyone else is being. And so where does therapy come in here? Where. Where do you start getting some breakthroughs where it's okay to talk about your feelings and there's no absence of masculinity in being able to tell people that you hurt. When do you start getting some of the balm that's in there?

Darren Waller (42:04)

I mean, that started, like, in rehab for me. So that was 2017. Those foundations started to be laid there. Just seeing, like, being vulnerable is absolutely terrifying. But then it's like the gratification after having done that feels like what I wanted to feel when I was getting high. I guess it's like, how great is that?

Sam (42:29)

So the nourishment, you're validating yourself instead of being addicted to validation, right?

Darren Waller (42:34)

Yeah. And then so it's just like, that's how it's like when you say it's easier for you to just speak vulnerably about, you know, the tender parts of your life. It was just like going to rehab, starting to lay the foundation of like, oh, this feels right. Like I can feel it in my body. This feels right. Like there's a lot of times where I felt like things don't feel right, but this feels like the direction that I should be going in. Being in these vulnerable environments, letting myself be seen and not. Yeah. Continuing to live in my own prison. And those things started to. Just building blocks that built over the years, you know, and it's like you get to 2023, I'm. I was over six years sober during all that stuff that was happening within me with the. When I was in New York. But it's just like being hard on myself and thinking, like, why haven't I had it figured out yet? But it's like, no, this is just part of the journey. Like, I've reached new depths of like, okay, like getting sober, like, definitely helped. And the work we've been doing in therapy and going to meetings and stuff like that and helping other people, like, this is good, but they're like, there's still more. That's just like the tip of the iceberg. There's still more stuff because like after the retiring in 2023, that's when like that sound bath happening. Like going back to the earlier parts of my life and like the inner child work and you know, looking how I approach like validation and relationships and things like that, like all of those things started to be brought into the mix as well. And it was like, ah, there's so much more that needs to explored here still.

Sam (44:05)

It's. I cannot think even in the hypothetical of a worse prison for someone like you, particularly outside of maybe the military, than to have with these particular set of things to be in play while you're surrounded by a whole lot of like, we are going to push all that down and be tougher than everybody else. And also you need to be happy. You're living every kid's childhood dream. You're a star athlete in New York.

Darren Waller (44:34)

Star athlete in New York, married to a high profile person. Yeah. All these Things I got everything that I could possibly want in life and it's like, it's still not getting the job.

Sam (44:46)

Well, it would seem to be really hard to have a relationship with Kelsey Plumb if you don't know yourself and you don't understand sort of that a woman doesn't exist simply to serve you. The person who has always been served by everyone. Because you're the great athlete. No, she your equal. And you need to take care of her the same way. Like what? That's hard to learn before you're an adult.

Darren Waller (45:08)

Yeah, yeah. Cause like, yeah, in times I see, like when there was opportunities to, you know, step up and be there for her, it's like all it's ever been is me being centered around my fears and my pains and my difficulties to where it's like, yeah, you can't. I have no bandwidth of, no ability for anybody else, no muscle memory to show up for her in that way here.

Sam (45:32)

And also the job requires so much from you that basically you have to put everything you are into just being able to stay on top of that job. So there's no room for much of anything else except you. Right. And so it just creates a wildly selfish human being. That person without introspection is not equipped to take care of someone else in a loving relationship if he's not loving himself. And he doesn't know who he is either.

Darren Waller (45:58)

And it's just like, look at the paradox that's been created of like all from since a young kid it's been like pleasing people, like looking to like show up externally and all these things. Like the intention was to, if I take care of them or impress them or do good by them, then I will get something in return. But all that had ever done is create a self centeredness when the intentions were never really always, if I look back at my intentions, it was never to be like, I'm just gonna be worried about me and fuck everybody else. But that's what the actions became essentially.

Sam (46:38)

Did you identify as selfish or were you entitled? You must have been entitled, right? You must have. If all of your life you're getting rewards for everything that you are, would you have described your. The way this person looks back at that person? You say, what of him? Even in the most forgiving of circumstances, being gentle with that he was what.

Darren Waller (47:02)

Through the disease of addiction, deceived himself into not being able to see that he was self centered.

Sam (47:12)

And everything about your life would reward self centeredness. Correct. Because when you take care of yourself, everybody around you is Giving you validation because you're the great athlete. And your life in New York, I would imagine. New York seems to me to be a very lonely, lonely place if you do not know yourself.

Darren Waller (47:35)

Yeah.

Sam (47:37)

And so your loneliness stretches back. You've always felt like an outsider. Correct. And so where have you come more to grips with? No, not quite. Like, where I have always gravitated in sports to the people that I call the weirdos, because I find them most interesting. And they are often loners, and they often. And don't find other people who are like them, but when they do find those people, they find community. You are less lonely now than you have been.

Darren Waller (48:05)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I still experience loneliness. Like, just taking. Like, coming out here to Miami. It's like in those almost two years of being out of the game, my relationships have grown a lot richer with friends and community. You know, even with women. Just, like, friendships with women like that, all of that changed. And just, like, investing in relationships and just seeing the impact that it had on me, and it's like being connected to other people is, like, such an antidote to a lot of what I'm feeling. But then coming out here to Miami, it's like, damn, I'm away from those people, and it's like some of the old patterns come up when I'm away. It's like I'm not communicating. I'm just like the prison bar. They just close back up. That's just, like, naturally what happens in me, because that's all I've ever done.

Sam (48:54)

This area can be a really bad area for an addict if an addict doesn't have control of where he or she is in life. Like, there's temptation everywhere. And really easy to get away from the loneliness by just finding temporary friends.

Darren Waller (49:08)

Right. So staying connected to those people, like, it may not have been, like, at times as much as I would have liked to, or to the depth that I would have liked to, but. But even staying, giving myself the grace to know that I'm trying to change these patterns and staying connected has helped me tremendously during this season, because just like any other season, any other life has been big highs and difficult lows. But staying connected to people has always reminded me that, man, this world is so much bigger and richer, and my life is so much richer than that cold, isolated place in my apartment. I can find myself in, just wallowing sometimes.

Sam (49:48)

Well, what were you expecting from the Miami football experience? How did it meet or not meet your expectations? These are a lot of questions. And where it is that you measure success in there. Like, what was going to be a success in this Dolphin season for you after a year off?

Darren Waller (50:05)

I didn't know. I didn't really have high expectations coming in. I was just more so thinking of the fact, like, okay, this opportunity has been and organically presented to me to step back into football and kind of restore a sense of balance in the love I have for football. But also, like, there's the shadow part of me that hated football because it was the what I used to gain validation, and it wasn't, like, outside of the authentic me. So in a way, like, I resented the success in the career because it was like, this is part of the mask almost. This is part of, like, the image and the charade almost. So it was like. Like, stepping back in, I felt like, was an opportunity from my higher power to restore balance to that and realize, like, okay, there are some things about football that are difficult and that I'm just like, oh, okay, that you gotta, like, grind through and experience. But there are also still parts that I love and that I get excited about and get energized by. And so just trying to hold to that perspective, you know, I think is what this season provided me at getting in and showing up to training camp with like. Like, I was not preparing myself in any way physically to come back to this. This was, like, a couple weeks before training camp where it was like, I think I'm going to do this because I went. Frank Smith is, like, he was my tight end coach, like, the best years of my career. And he just invited me out to one of the OTA practices. Like, come visit, come hang out. Like, I want you to see. You haven't been here since I've been here, so come check it out. And I went to the practice and then left from there. And I was just kind of like, why do I feel like I'm being pushed back in this direction now? And so kind of trusting that and thinking, like, I get in, get to the team and actually, like, right after, like, July 4th to try to, like, you know, kind of get my body back into it.

Sam (51:52)

So you're basically. The smile on your face indicates to me that while you probably weren't a fat slob, you weren't doing next to anything that you needed to be doing to be in kind of football shape. Like, so they picked you up off of the scrap heap because they know you were good a few years ago, and they're like, we can refurbish this quote, unquote, head case. And you're like, I'm gonna get off the couch and do this. I guess I am. And now you're gonna send your body through Navy SEAL military training to punish yourself. You're not in any way ready to do what a football schedule demands.

Darren Waller (52:22)

No. The first at the end, like, the second week of being with the team and training, like, doing like a speed workout. Like, I damn near, like, blow my hip off of my. Almost tear my, like, hip flexor from my quad or like my femur.

Sam (52:36)

Yeah. You immediately got hurt and weren't available when I was telling everybody down here, wait till you see Waller. Wait till you see him walk through your secondary. I didn't know that you weren't training, though. I figured that. I thought you were coming back in the mind, the right mind frame to dominate a season, but you basically are just, let's see if I could polish up the remainder of my adult life as an actual grownup. Now I'm gonna see if I can go get a job. And idiotically, you try to start a season in no way physically prepared for it.

Darren Waller (53:02)

Right? Yeah.

Sam (53:03)

So it's like amazing arrogance from you, really, honestly, to think that you could do physically NFL football training. You know what it's like, it's not like you didn't know what it takes for the body to think you could just pick that up again at 33, right. Or 32, right? 32.

Darren Waller (53:18)

Yeah. So it's like missing like, the entirety of training camp. And then I think it was the first three games and then coming up to the jets game, I think I had like, like three practices. And so I'm like, going into the game, like, I have no idea how this is going to go. I. You know, we're just going to see, like, in those practices, I was like, effective, and it was like, okay, this is like riding a bike in a way, now that my body's.

Sam (53:43)

You're going to be effective. When you're 60, you're a really good, physically talented tight end, it's impossible to cover you.

Darren Waller (53:49)

Right. And so I go out into even like the pre game warmups of the jets games like that. I'm like, yeah, I have no idea how this is gonna go. Like, I'm really about to get. I was laying in my bed in the gap between, like, the morning meetings and like, going to the stadium. I'm like, this is really happening today. Like, this is really about to go down. And then going into the game and having the game go the way that it went was just, like, completely surreal.

Sam (54:14)

Two touchdowns and you don't really feel still like you're in shape necessarily. Right. Like, you've.

Darren Waller (54:20)

Right.

Sam (54:20)

You're. You're basically playing NFL football games not far removed from whatever video games on the couch were.

Darren Waller (54:26)

Yeah.

Sam (54:27)

With your body for. And depressed for. For. And divorced and going through all of that, you were basically languishing in. Whatever it was, was some real darkness for a year and a half of not taking care of yourself.

Darren Waller (54:41)

Well, I mean, I would say there was darkness early on after, like, right around my retirement and the divorce and everything, but things really started to change me. Like, I was really enjoying my life and. And the growth that I was seeing just in how I relate to connection, myself and other people. I was seeing a lot of growth in that to the point where it was like, yeah, I was like, oh, man. I really. This is something that I feel like I need to do to kind of heal that relationship to football. But I was on the verge of thriving in my life before that, and so it's just like, yeah, it was a shock, throwing myself back into.

Sam (55:23)

Oh, I see what you're. So you had gotten to the other side of the prison of growth, and now we're developing meaningful relationships with others while also taking care of yourself.

Darren Waller (55:34)

Yeah. I mean, I guess in a way, it's like trying to, like, this inner guide in me, starting to trust that more and more. And it's like, okay, I don't ne. I don't necessarily know how I feel that it's pushed me in this direction, but it is. And I'm just gonna follow it, like. Like, and. And. And see what happens. And, yeah, it's been met with difficulties, but it's like that game and, you know, multiple spots throughout the season, it felt like, you know, this is the. This is the joy of football that I remember in being, you know, connected to teammates and coaches and everything. And it's like, yeah, of course, like, not doing the training and stuff was, like, what brought about the difficulties that I faced in the season, 100%. But it's like. Like, to go back out there and feel like what I went into this season for, to restore that. I felt like there was big steps taken in that direction. And also, like you said, like, measuring success and seeing my value. Like, a lot of that came from prior years of, like, statistics and metrics and fantasy points and shit like that. But this year, it's like, you know, the stats and the numbers and the targets and all that stuff, like, wasn't what it used to be, but it's like, like seeing, like, okay, ah, more. My value is like, just the presence that I bring in each and every day and, like, being around people and like, having an impact on, like, younger guys on the team and. And just like, through the ways that I work through the ways that I relate to my teammates and the efficiency with which I take advantage of the opportunities that. That come my way. Like, that's all I ever did before was like, it was just a higher quantity, higher frequency of opportunities. This year wasn't the same, but it's like I've always prided myself on the efficiency. That's like Georgia Tech triple option football. I'm not getting 10 targets a game, bro. If I get three, I feel like I'm hitting the lottery. So it's like bringing that mindset of efficiency to that and presence to that and not being so caught up in, like, when my opportunities are coming. But it's just like, I'm part of a team and part of a group. How am I elevating the environment that I'm in is how I try to measure my value now. And I feel like I've been able to connect to that, whereas before, I never even. And it just sounded so fucking cheesy to me. Before, it's like, nah, I need these yards and these numbers or I fucking suck. And now it's like I sit here with whatever my statistical output was from the season. I have no idea what it was, but it's like I feel proud of that, like, from what my circumstances were, coming back into the game and what I was able to.

Sam (57:57)

Oh, but it's so freeing, though. Never mind whether it's six touchdowns or not. Like, it's so freeing. What you're describing sounds like the area that you felt like you were thriving was just because for the first time in your life, you'd found your actual identity. And it felt really comfortable to care about that person like that person and have the time to share yourself with the people who would then experience and enjoy the vulnerability. Like, so you come back to football as somebody who is more stable, more himself, and can measure success with not numbers, but, like, did I enjoy it? Did I push myself? Did I try my best? And. And now the. The measurements are all your own. Right. And so by that extent, there's no way to describe this season as a lack of success if that's how you're doing the measurements. Right. But the. The season was a bit of a disaster. Not for you, but for the team. Right. Everybody gets fired, and I don't I don't even know what your relationship right now is with football. If you're. If you want to play again, if you want to play for the Dolphins, like, if you've gotten to the place where. No, that was. Imagine. Imagine how many touchdowns I could have if I wasn't off the couch because I didn't know that I needed to do this a little better.

Darren Waller (59:07)

Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely. Yeah, that's definitely a lot of what I've been thinking. Like, throughout the season, there was kind of like, you could. I could feel myself drifting back and forth between. Like, I feel like I could do this for however long. And then it's like, you know, the injuries and the frustrations are like, I can't keep doing this to myself and floating back and forth. So now is, like, the time that I have to sit with both parts, kind of have, like, a board of directors meeting with both parts of me and be like, okay, like, what are we doing here? Like, let's look at the pros and cons of each of these directions, and we can make a decision from there. But playing football again and starting to lay the foundation, going somewhere, investing in my training with. With professionals that can direct my performance and have me be able to take on that load is something that I'm considering. But, yeah, this is a time for me to kind of reflect on that.

Sam (60:07)

Well, this is the time, though, that all football players are always closest to quitting because the 17 weeks is terrible. And you never ask a guy immediately after the season whether he's thinking of playing again next season because none of them want to play next season. When they think of everything it's going to take to how physically you hurt now, which all of you are some level of broken after 17 weeks. And this is the worst possible time to ask you that question and get a hopeful response for next season. Anybody who's just finished a losing season. Correct? Yeah, but you sound hopeful. Like, you sound like somebody who knows what he wants better than he ever has.

Darren Waller (60:46)

Yeah, much better than I ever have.

Sam (60:48)

And so what is that right now? When you think of what the next few years look like independent of football, like, the areas of growth that you're insisting on are where. So that you can nourish yourself best.

Darren Waller (61:01)

It's still, for me, it's like the curiosity and the kindness towards myself and the difficulties that I still experience and any, like, pain points, discomforts that come up or any behaviors that I feel like I could be doing better in, it's just having that lens toward Myself and, you know, staying in communication with people at all times that I love and that I care about and people that hold me accountable and that push me to be better. It's like that always has to be a constant for me to thrive in any realm. And it's like that's what's going to prepare me to, you know, whenever one day the opportunity presents itself, to be able to. To care for other people or care for a family, care for my seed at some point, whenever the opportunity presents itself, these are the opportunities that are training for me to have a fulfilled life. Because there is no fulfilled life without being able to relate lovingly, vulnerably, openly with other people. And that first has to start with me. So it's like continuing to build on that foundation of that loving, kind nature toward myself. Everything benefits from that.

Sam (62:13)

You're more ready now to love someone correctly in a relationship that builds a life than you've ever been because of everything that you've gone through the last 18 years, right? The first 15 years before that, less so. But the last 18 years of your life have all been a journey. So you. This is the most evolved, prepared version of Darren Waller to actually share himself in a real and meaningful relationship, without a doubt. So you said that in 2017, going into therapy and applying your willfulness toward the taking care of yourself, it felt like getting high. You're loving yourself is basically what it is you're doing in all of the years of therapy that you have done since. And it's a broad question. What would you say is some of the greatest wisdom that you have accrued over a decade of examining yourself and learning some of the things that you need and don't need from yourself, your life?

Darren Waller (63:09)

I would say a lot of my early approaches to, like, therapy and like, doing the work that has kind of changed my life. It's like, there's a lot of fixing that I need to do. I need to fix myself, like. Which has, like, an undertone of, like, there's pieces of me that are, like, broken. And in some ways you look at it and say, that's the truth. But it's like we all have, like, a shadow. I don't know if you've ever heard that concept before, but there's this psychologist name was Carl Jung, and he has this quote that always sticks with me. He says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And so there's these. All these parts of me that I was never conscious of, like those Shadow parts, like the version of me when I was a kid, when I was hiding all the Coke cans and still taking money out the purse and like doing all these, all these things. There's always this shadow part of me that I always had a resentment towards, like a hatred towards it. Like, ah, like that needs to go away, that I got to get that out of there. But in therapy I feel like I've realized that there has to be an element of like befriending that shadow and looking at those parts as like this shadow is really just showing me areas in which I could be freer, areas in which I could have like a much more whole part to myself. Because it's like learning, basically learning to love, like not only this healthier, you know, more put together version of myself, but also those broken versions, those hurting versions, those lost versions of myself and finding like a, like a congruence there, like a love for those things. So in shifting away from I need to fix things by myself, but it's more so like I'm just becoming more whole with all of me and all that I've ever been. And so there's all types of, of, you know, tactics to help you get there. But just through a lot of writing, a lot of questions, a lot of silent reflection, a lot of putting my phone down, a lot of walking in nature, a lot of things that just like, slow me down from where's the next high? Where's the next high? The instant gratification, just like let me slow down so I can feel what's coming up in my body and reflect on these things and get to know those parts of myself. It's just like bringing those things to the surface. If I never went back and did the work to bring my real authentic childhood experience to the surface, those unconscious parts would have continued to direct my relationships, my relationship with football, and that continue to constitute that feeling of being trapped. Whereas bringing those things to the surface, forming a relationship with those parts, it's like now I can, it's not an enemy, it's more so an ally, something that's, you know, on my side and that I've learned to love. So now it's like when I feel like triggered or experiences that may want to push me to act in those ways, I can have more compassion for myself and less shame for myself. Because that shame, we've been talking about shame the whole time. Like that shame has been on me my whole life. It's never shaming myself to do better has never turned into me doing better. Or living better. And so it's like finding ways to eliminate that shame. And like I said, love those versions of myself. But yeah, the most important thing for me is bringing those things to the surface and as opposed to trying to avoid them or just feel like it's something that you need to fix.

Sam (66:21)

What a treasure man. Like when you're talking about conscious that way, you're basically just saying that the gift is that I've gotten to know myself and I kind of like him. Like and all of it. Not the part, not the shadow part too. Because I'm going to be forgiving and gentle with myself. I'm going to be kind to myself. Like that's an. In terms of the happiness pie chart, what you're talking about there and being present and conscious, like, not that we all have it solved every day, but like obviously that feels to you less loss than the previous incarnation of yourself. Do you need any daily practices that you have to put in place to sort of help you, to remind you of how it is to stay within a gentle place to yourself, like where you're not going to relapse or you're going to, you're going to have not just the accountability of friendships and others who care about you, but things that you have to do to make sure that you don't fall.

Darren Waller (67:13)

Absolutely. I mean sometimes it can be exhausting of thinking like all the things I need to do to kind of approach the day from a healthy baseline. But it's definitely like prayer meditation in the morning. I need to walk outside at some point during the day, does numbers for me. There's a lot of journaling. I saw somebody on Tick Tock they put in the term. I guess the term is called raw dogging now. I guess it used to always just mean like sex with no condom. But now it's like they no Internet now it's like having time of your day where you're. They call it raw dogging life. So it's like time where it's like I said my. I set a 30 minute timer and put my phone down. I just sit there because like a lot of what my makeup is, is just like the next high, like the next thing. Like, like something to get me out of sitting with things. And so it's like that 30 minute window of just like absolutely nothing, not even meditation.

Sam (68:14)

It's just still with yourself and be comfortable with yourself. Even if it's uncomfortable, do not get distracted.

Darren Waller (68:19)

Right. Meditation is outside of that. So it's like all those things, regular meeting, attendance it's in person meetings. Like there's young kids out here that. And even like a guy that's like older than me that I've been sponsoring throughout the season. And so like taking them through book work and helping them with their recovery journey, like, being of service helps me out rewarding tremendously. And then going to meetings, staying in touch and make. Doing the work that, you know, my sponsor is giving me, still being a student and, and trying to keep some kind of creative rhythm, creative flow. Like, that's where the music comes up for me. You know, I'm sure a lot of people see the, the athlete doing music. It's like, man, this. Trying to. Just trying to be cool and rap. But it's like, nah, that like that level of expression for me is healing on so many ways because it's like, you know, I think a lot of people know the song I have called Top Play. And it's like, okay, cool. But like, if you look at the rest of my discography, it's like I'm pouring shit out on them songs.

Sam (69:17)

Well, how do you feel? So what happens? So you decide after you get divorced, there's the. Whatever the public embarrassment is of all of that. But you put your feelings into song, you made a video, and then of course what ends up happening as the Internet drags you for. Look at this guy. He's going to show everybody his heartbreak through song and he's going to try and break, make his pain creative. How did you experience or did you even care about what the reaction was to any of that?

Darren Waller (69:43)

That was a powerful experience for me in just like, like the growth with like always needing the validation of people. I look back on that experience. I don't regret sharing the music in any way. If there was one thing I would have changed, I would have put forth like extra context because in the context of the video, because like the song was called who knew her Perspective. And so the basis of the song is I'm writing. The idea was writing if. If the. Because a lot of similar patterns in relationships over my life. So if the woman had the. Had the pen and was writing a song to me, what would that song be? And so by the perspective being, I'm singing from the woman's perspective in the video, I'm the woman that's experiencing the pain. Whereas, like people clipped it and put it out and was like, oh, I got stabbed in the back. But it's like I was trying to.

Sam (70:35)

Be more artistic, even more artistic than you thought he was trying to be. But I didn't. It's not quite as heavy handed as just there's a backstabbing and this is like you wanted it to have nuance, you wanted it to have layers, you wanted it, wanted it to, to. You were not an innocent in what happened in that relationship. And, but, but so you made the piece of art and then just dealt with. You didn't even pay much attention to what it is. The reaction was because it was about expressing yourself and it's about self validation.

Darren Waller (71:03)

Yeah. And at the time I had a phone that was called a light phone. I had got probably a couple months before my divorce, but so I wasn't even on the Internet. I had like friends and be like, yo, like Stephen A. Smith is talking about this. And I was like, oh fuck. I was not anticipating this because you know, I put music out and people that are fans of me or follow me, like, like my music but it was never like a big thing. So that was an interesting experience. But. But yeah, it was just like for me I was like, I'm on to the next thing I'm making. Like okay, if this caused a stir, like great. Like I'm not going to be continuing to make this particular type of song going forward. Like I'm gonna make, make the hard hitting songs I'm gonna make, but I'm also gonna like continue to I guess put who I am on these songs. That's the only way I really know how to create is like channeling what I'm experiencing and the ideas I feel like I'm getting from the universe and putting them out and, and trying to be real people the same way I'm trying to be real on this microphone here.

Sam (72:02)

You know, you mentioned anxiety and I don't know what your relationship with, is it with it is now or what it was, but it's something that has gripped you since you were young. Right. To identify what it is. So what is your relationship now with anxiety?

Darren Waller (72:18)

I see anxiety now more of like a secondhand emotion. A lot of times when I'm feeling anxiety, there's something in me that hasn't been expressed or needs to be explored more. And I'm anxious because I've, I'm maybe back in that mode a little bit of not sitting with what I'm feeling, feeling or something that needs attention. I'm deceiving myself in some way from thinking that something.

Sam (72:45)

Oh, so it's just a symptom. You recognize it now as a feeling that's just a symptom as opposed to something that Needs to be medicated. Wait a minute. What do I need to address? Anxiety is just showing me there's something here that needs to.

Darren Waller (72:56)

Right. It's more of a guide for me now. It's not just, like, when I'm sitting and I'm like, there are things that I'm sitting with and, you know, addressing them, facing them head on, talking to people about them. Them. When I'm sitting in my apartment or like, when I'll sit in the car on the right here, I'm cooling. Like, I'm. I'm chilling. Like, I'm. This is great. Like, the anxiety for me is definitely just a guide to be like, hey, there's something here that we need to communicate on. Set a boundary on, write more about. Like, it's just pointing me to something new.

Sam (73:26)

Where do you think the next couple of years are going to take you, and where do you want them to take you? Do you.

Darren Waller (73:40)

I mean, I definitely want them to take me deeper into.

Sam (73:42)

It's a daunting question for anybody, by the way. So, like, I'm not. I know I'm putting something on your lap here. It's just because you've arrived at such a place of adult growth and you've learned so many big things through emotional, physical, and public pain that I would assume that there's some enthusiasm about whatever the discovery is that's up ahead. Especially if you've gotten to a place where you found your identity and you could be like, well, I'm not just a football player. I can come back and conquer football, but is it really what I want to do or. Or do I want to go connect with other human being? Because football does make that harder. Like, you have to pay attention. It's. It's obsessive compulsive in a way that will take you away from all of your relationships.

Darren Waller (74:24)

Yeah.

Sam (74:24)

Yeah.

Darren Waller (74:24)

So, yeah, I think whichever way I decided to go on that decision, it's keeping relationships at the forefront, allowing myself to find a way to date in a healthy way that's slow and respectful of not only how I'm trying to live and my boundaries, but other people's as well. Definitely trying to continue to explore my creative side, my musical side. I've been making music for 10 years, but at the same time, I still feel like I'm just at the very beginning of what my creative journey is like. So continuing to explore that, definitely travel and seeing more of the world. Like, when I was retired, I went to Japan for my birthday. I just went out there and was out there for like two weeks. And that was amazing for me. Just being out in more nature, more national parks, and just being outside, like more things like that, you know.

Sam (75:18)

Did you go to Japan on your own, by the way? Because I don't. Did you go with others or did you go by yourself?

Darren Waller (75:24)

This videographer that I work with, he. He has like a part time job with American Airlines, so he was able to get like a $43 flight from New York to Tokyo. So he came for like four days, five days.

Sam (75:36)

The reason I bring it up is just. Well, he came to film or he came to just be with you?

Darren Waller (75:40)

A little bit of both.

Sam (75:41)

Okay. Because traveling alone is. There's a certain bravery in that. Yeah.

Darren Waller (75:45)

But the other. The last like 10, 9, 10 days of my trip, I was there by myself.

Sam (75:50)

But you were there to do it as an adventure and an exploration of. Let, Let me see if I can. Can be with myself for 10 days in a foreign land. And what'd you learn?

Darren Waller (76:00)

It was amazing. It was amazing. And I had some like, guides set up to where like, they could take me on some tours and stuff like that. But it was incredible to go out there and do something that I wanted to do and experience that just as me. Not worry about when I'm gonna get back and get to the next thing, but just be present to this.

Sam (76:19)

Well, the present thing is a funny one because you mentioned that the last time you were on with us and I could talk to you for a long time, but I'm going to let you go here in a moment. And I appreciate both the honesty and the amount of time. But you really seem to have learned that in the distraction of always getting off until the next thing. There's only joy in the present if you're grateful about the moment that you have, even if it's just walking around your neighborhood in stillness, because that's the moment that you have. Not off to the next, conquering the next hole that can't be filled. The next accomplishment, letting life come to you.

Darren Waller (76:51)

Yeah, you said it. I mean, it's. If you. I don't know how often we think about this in general as a society, but we think about, you know, the life we want to live, getting there, wherever there is. But any of those moments that you want to experience or that you've seen somebody else experience, all those experiences were had in the present moment. And so if you don't build like the muscles to be and train yourself being present in the moment, then you're not going to be allowing yourself to be grateful for when those moments come. Like, if I don't learn how to appreciate my football. For me, an example was I started to fall in love with the training and just the small things when I was getting reinstated into the league. It's just the actual training of being out on the field, the routes, seeing myself improve. I was grateful to just be having that experience. If I wasn't present to that and just thinking like, man, I'm just ready for my shot to come whenever I need my opportunity to come. If I wasn't working, being present there and appreciating that experience. When I get to 100 catches in a season or whatever the output is, it's like I won't necessarily be grateful for that. I'll be thinking like, oh man, fucking Justin Jefferson had 120 catches. Because I always think it's gotta be the next experience. I gotta be better, I gotta be on to the next. When really it's like the beauty of everything that's happening is when. And I'm here, I'm being where my feet are and that's when life is at its easiest. And that's when I want to start.

Sam (78:21)

A T shirt company with you. A spiritual T shirt company where I just. It's a T shirt that just reads there is here. There is here. Whatever it is you're looking for, it's here right now. I feel like you have this wisdom that you're carrying around with you where you. There is great wisdom and understanding that right now is the moment and you get in your own way when you're always looking off into the distance because you think there's something better over there. There is here. There's something musical in that. I think you can do that. Well, it's here for you, right There is here for you right now. Like this. Whatever midlife crisis is, whatever is the growth that people feel in their 40s and 50s because they haven't examined their worth. Like you did it a little earlier than most.

Darren Waller (79:04)

Yeah. Let that be the catalyst that is supposed to to be.

Sam (79:07)

Congratulations on the success, the return to football and locating your identity and being gentle with it. Really enjoyed this as I knew I would because you, you are uncommon among your peers. Most of the. The people in modern day sports are not willing to open themselves up to the public this way. So thank you for doing that.

Darren Waller (79:27)

Yes, sir. Appreciate you, Sam.