Kumail Nanjiani (3:01)

No. Which brings me the greatest joy changes day to day. What I love about Stand up is it's really on you, your mistakes. It's you and the crowd. If something doesn't go right, it's completely your fault. When you're acting and stuff, truly when you're acting and stuff, you're at the mercy of other people. So you really have to trust the filmmaker that they, like, make you look good, the actual doing of it. I enjoy acting the most, I would say, because I find it to be challenging and it's exciting because the goals are so varied. Whereas with stand up, your goal really is to make people laugh. Right. And it's not limited. There's so much you could do with stand up, but with acting, you could really. It could be very cathartic. You can like. It kind of feels like. It can feel like therapy, you know, stand up, you can do really well and just have it be outward facing. With acting, you can't do that. You have to sort of be inside your own self.

Interviewer (4:07)

But therapy, how? Because you say inside your own self, but it's also the one that is most. Not you. Right. I don't think the welcome to Chippendales character that you played is very you.

Kumail Nanjiani (4:17)

But parts of them are me. You know, the part of me that's like, if I could kill this guy and get away with it, wouldn't that be great? I mean, there's. I have, you know, I certainly have a list of people that I'm like, if that person could die and it doesn't come back to me, I would not even consider not doing it. I would do it right now. So with acting, I mean, it's all. You're playing different characters, but at least the way I do it, I wasn't trained or anything in acting. I mean, I've been taking acting classes now for about 12 years, but I didn't go to school for it. I have to use parts of myself. I have to put parts of myself into the character, and I have to take parts of the character and put them into myself. So it is very personal. No matter how different the character is on the surface. You really are using a lot of your own insights for it.

Interviewer (5:07)

Well, I want to get to a bunch of this stuff because you're very vulnerable, you're sensitive. So let's dive into the deep end. Which are you more sensitive or anxious?

Kumail Nanjiani (5:18)

Sensitive. I'm more sensitive. I think so. Although, you know, with anxiety for so long, it was just like what I thought being a person was, that it just. Sometimes it becomes like background noise, so you don't even know. Like, for me, the biggest I've had journeys with both those things about myself. And I'm at different points with them with anxiety. It took me a long time to even realize I was anxious. And I was with my wife Emily. You've been together for years. And at one point I was like, you know, I'm a very laid back person. She's like, what are you talking about? You're like the most anxious person I've ever met. And I realized like all this thinking and overthinking and what am I going to do next? Or what did I do? Was that okay? Shouldn't have done that, shouldn't have done that. The regret of doing something, hurting myself for something I did that's already in the past, basically not being able to live in the moment. I realized that's just how I've been my entire life.

Interviewer (6:15)

And sort of numb, right? Because I recognize this one, like numb to it where. Because I always argued that I'm here and I didn't realize that I went lower than that because of whatever the suppression of feelings were or eating my feelings or not understanding what my feelings were. Speaking them more than feeling them, 100% not.

Kumail Nanjiani (6:34)

I wasn't even speaking my feelings. I was just. It would push, push, push come out as anger. So I've had, I would say until fairly recently, since I was a kid. I've had like anger issues since I was a kid. I remember being 10 and being so angry that I didn't know what to do with it. The anger felt bigger than the world. And that's a thing that my parents have known about me my entire life because everybody else outside thought I was a very nice kid. I was very good, I got good grades, I never got in trouble really. You know, I was really was like kind of a golden child. And I really was, you know, kind of still am to the family. I was like the prince of the family. But what they got to see that nobody else got to see was this explosive anger that would happen every now and then. And all that came from suppressing feelings, but also not in some ways, not liking myself. And I didn't realize that I didn't like myself until just a few years ago. And I think when I sort of understood that, I was like, oh, a lot of these behaviors are now making sense. So that was what. The anxiety and sensitivity is tied to that too. You know, I knew I was always sensitive, but then not liking that about myself. The fact that my feelings get hurt very easily, that I get sad very easily, and realizing that that's not how Men are supposed to be. And trying to push that down led to a lot of anger. Led to a lot of self hatred too, because I didn't like that I was this sensitive. And you know when you're like in high school and stuff, you're supposed to be kind of like badass and you have this armor and nothing gets to you. Everything got to me. And it wasn't until I would sit in my 40s where I was like, oh, I'm really, really sensitive and it's okay to just. That's just my, like cross to bear. My feelings get hurt. Nothing's gonna fix that. I have to accept it.

Interviewer (8:38)

Why till 40, though? Cause I buried myself in my work so much that I didn't realize any of that until I got to my 40s too. Like, there are a lot of parallels here.

Kumail Nanjiani (8:46)

For me, well, at a certain point, it just became part of. It was the pandemic, just having to really sit with myself. Just me and Emily, we didn't. We took it very seriously because my wife's in a high risk group. So for a year and a half, we did not leave the house. Just having to spend all that time and we would separate for the day. So we'd wake up, we'd have breakfast together, we'd spend all day separately. I would work, she would work, we'd write, I'd work out, and we then would come together for dinner and watch a movie at night. So spending all that time with myself, I became very aware of how things make me feel, what my reaction to things is. And I also actually do think acting did help with that, realizing, like, oh, I have all this stuff I can tap into, which means that stuff is in there. And I've been denying it.

Interviewer (9:33)

How did you identify, though, as laid back when you're angry? Like, how does that self assessment become so wrong? Are you in denial there?

Kumail Nanjiani (9:42)

Because I wasn't angry all the time. I would get angry every now and then. It was 100% denial. It was certainly denial. I just. Cause on the surface, in my 20s, I was smoking a lot of pot. I was doing standup. I was late to my work all the time. So I was like, these are all like, to me, the signifiers of someone who's very chill and laid back.

Interviewer (10:07)

It's just someone who smokes weed.

Kumail Nanjiani (10:09)

Yeah, well, you know, it's like that. To me, the analogy is when a fan's moving really fast, it looks like it's not moving at all. That's how I sort of felt where on the surface I was just, like, kind of chill. But inside was a tempest. And it was just all these conflicting cyclones of feelings seemingly canceling each other out, but they really weren't. They were all. Everything was spiking all at once. And so I knew I had an anger issue, and I hated myself for that too. I hated that I had this anger thing. Like, I'd get very angry, and my pattern had become with people I love getting really angry and then saying the thing you can't take back and then that would sort of break it. And then suddenly, awful guilt about what I had said.

Interviewer (10:58)

What a wonderful cycle that is.

Kumail Nanjiani (11:00)

It was, oh, my God.

Interviewer (11:03)

You finally get rid of the feeling and then just feel great remorse for having felt it. Haven't said it. And it just becomes a cyclone of self punishment where you never forgive yourself.

Kumail Nanjiani (11:13)

I mean, self punishment has been a big part of just how I deal with myself forever. And it took me a long time to realize that. And I think it was just realizing, you know, when I get to my 40s, I've been with my Y family now. We've been married for 17 years. Realizing this is the person I love most in the world. I'm making her life difficult because of this. And I owe it more to her to be better about this stuff. And we started doing this thing where we had to tell each other three vulnerable things every day. When we did that for months. Could be big, small, whatever. And that's what made me realize, like, oh, all the things that I thought I hated about myself just makes her love me more.

Interviewer (12:02)

What great wisdom to have, though, to understand that you had to be vulnerable, that you have to do that in order for the relationship to expand, for her to see you completely.

Kumail Nanjiani (12:12)

Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. It became, I realized, like, oh, you know, people still talk about, like, I don't tell my wife everything. And I'm like, I really, really do now. It wasn't always like this. Genuinely. The goal is 100% true and genuine. Deep vulnerability, everything.

Interviewer (12:32)

Oh, because the love gets returned as self love, does it not? Like when you see that you give her the parts of you that you're ashamed of or that you think are ugly. And she's like, no, I accept you that way too. Cause it's part of who you are. I mean, that's where you're not alone anymore. That's where you're not inside your body with that tempest.

Kumail Nanjiani (12:52)

Exact. And to me, truly, genuinely, that someone. Emily's the most wonderful person I've ever met. And obviously, That's a very subjective statement. She's my wife.

Interviewer (13:03)

You're biased.

Kumail Nanjiani (13:04)

I'm biased. However, when people meet her, they do see that there's something very special and magical about her. There just is an undeniable thing about her that everybody who knows her knows. It's not just me. People say that objectively, there's something about her. And I think if someone as wonderful as that loves me, there's gotta be something good about me.

Interviewer (13:28)

Well, it sounds like she's cracked you open, though. Like, it sounds like, you know, when I'm watching your special and you're romanticizing about the fact that you're doing it not just in Chicago, but you sat in the theater where you met her. Correct?

Kumail Nanjiani (13:41)

Or like you said, no, it's the city where we met. But I have a personal connection to that theater as well. But not to do with our relationship.

Interviewer (13:48)

Okay, but you met around work. You were sort of obsessed with work.

Kumail Nanjiani (13:53)

I was doing standup a lot, and we met at a show. Yeah, yeah. So going back to do that, I got very emotional immediately when I came out on stage. And I had not expected that, and I did not. It's not something that I wanted to do. It just sort of happened. And to me, it was a good sign. It meant that I was situated enough in that moment to really feel it. And then we talked a lot about whether or not to put that little moment in the special. And we tried it without it, but I was like. It sort of speaks to what the special is about anyway. And so we decided to leave it in.

Interviewer (14:31)

I want to talk about your journey. It's improbable. What do you regard as the most improbable part of it?

Kumail Nanjiani (14:39)

Truly, all of it. I mean, I truly cannot. It's hard to grasp, you know, if I'd gone back to myself at any point, Even in my 20s, to be like, this is what I would get to do. I would not believe it. Especially because as a kid, I was very shy. I was very, very quiet, very reserved. It's very shocking to people that I do this. People who've known me, like, now, my parents have accepted it, but if you ask them, they'd be like, he's the last person we knew that we would expect to be doing this. There's a lot of luck involved, Right place, right time kind of things. I've gotten a lot of. A lot of people have sort of, like, helped me and put their reputation on the line to give me chances. And I really appreciate that. I mean, none of it really makes sense. If there are parallel universes, this is the only one where I'm doing okay.

Interviewer (15:33)

So let me see if you've explored this part. Is part of your need to be vulnerable in public or to be autobiographical in public? How much of it comes from growing up in a city of 27 million people and perhaps feeling not seen?

Kumail Nanjiani (15:49)

I've never connected that I'm not sure. I don't know how much of it comes from how I was raised or whatever. I just have always been a huge fan of movies and tv, big fan of pop culture. And I don't know when it happened, but my entire life, as far as I can remember, I've always valued people revealing themselves through art. It's always been something that I've really connected to. So, like, you know, I just did Conan o' Brien's podcast and I was telling him this. Like, I didn't. When I was a little, little kid, I liked silly stuff, but I really liked stuff that showed me who someone was, you know, or got at some sort of truth about something. I really always loved it. Like I fell in love with Bruce Springsteen. And to me, his music is intensely personal, even though he's not. He's never been a blue collar, you.

Interviewer (16:49)

Know, even though it's all kind of fraudulent.

Kumail Nanjiani (16:51)

Yeah, it's all. And he admits that. You know, he talks about that now.

Interviewer (16:55)

He does. He sold us alive for many years. Now he's got the wisdom of age.

Kumail Nanjiani (17:00)

Well, yeah, his one man show on Broadway, which I watched, was phenomenal. He talks about that. He's like, I've been a fraud, but very empathetic. Right. And getting at presumably at least what I perceive as some kind of truth about being a human being in this reality. And so when I started doing standup in the beginning, you're so terrified to get on stage that anything that you can hold onto when you're there. So I was writing very jokey jokes for the first few years, but it was fairly early. You know, it was like four or five years in, which is pretty early for standup, where I realized I was like, oh, I have to find a way to be myself on stage. That to me, otherwise this isn't worth it. I was sort of playing this Persona of a guy who was really nervous because I was really nervous and it was very easy to lean into it and it was funny and I was good at that kind of comedy timing, like the, the sort of nervous comedy timing. But four or five years in is when I felt like a fraud and I was like, this is only worth doing if I can really be myself on stage. And so then, even in my writing and acting and all that, like you talked about playing Steven. Welcome to Chippendales. Even in that performance, my goal is to show parts of myself, is to reveal something of my insides on camera. And so that's always been something that I've really, really valued. Like, I've never been. I really, you know, like sketch comedy, for instance, which to me is in some ways the opposite of that, at least how I perceive it. It's never been something that I've really, really. It's never been one of my things. I've tried writing it, I've tried acting in it. I'm not good at it. I didn't grow up loving sketch comedy. A lot of my friends are very, very good at it.

Interviewer (18:48)

But wait, you grew up wanting to be a scientist, right? Like, you're not having. You're not gonna have the same upbringing as your friends in this field. Like, before 18, you're not in this country. What access do you have other than television to learning some of these things?

Kumail Nanjiani (19:07)

Not at all. I mean, to me, watching movies and TV shows, I was like, oh, these are made by gods far away. It's not something that people can make. I have friends like, you know, like Nick Kroll, who I think is one of the funniest people in the world. He was doing little sketches and skits in his summer camp, and I've seen, like, pictures of it. And so he's known for a long time. And a lot of my friends have known since they were kids. Like, this is what I want to do. I did not think that that was a possibility in any way. And even so, now it's sort of been like, slowly, the. I'm gonna misuse this analogy, the frog boiling in water thing, There was never a moment where I was like, and now I wanna go act in movies. It was all, like, tiny steps that just sort of led to this. So I started doing standup. That was the first thing that I jumped into that I was like, I need to do this. I don't know how not to do this. I don't know how to do it, but I don't know how not to do it. And the only thing that hurt more than getting on stage was not getting on stage. And from that, it's all been, like, tiny little steps leading to this. I don't feel like there was ever a decision to. Like, there have been decisions within that, like writing the big sick with Emily and acting in it was like. I was like, I want to tell this story and I want to be vulnerable in that kind of way. But everything else has just sort of been like tiny little things.

Interviewer (20:27)

I've heard you express regret for that being the one step that was too personal. You thought that in the Big Sick that you went so autobiographical, that you're like, some things should be just mine. I don't have to give everybody everything.

Kumail Nanjiani (20:41)

Yeah. And there's some stuff in that that we didn't give to people. And Emily was actually very smart about that. Cause I was like, put everything down. And Emily was like, no, some things are just ours. And Emily checked her family's last name in the movie. I did not. Which I do regret. I think that was stupid. I do not regret doing the Big Sick. There are things within it that I would do differently. But I'm very proud of what we made with that. I do not regret it.

Interviewer (21:06)

I didn't mean to suggest that you regretted that. Just the portion that you learned there. Maybe I shouldn't give everyone everything to everyone.

Kumail Nanjiani (21:14)

Right. And at least if you're giving stuff to people that hide it, you know, like write it into a zombie movie or something so that there's like a little bit more distance. That felt like uniquely naked. You know, it felt like I had no safety net with that movie. And I do like doing that, operating without a safety net. But this is like, for instance, I realized the importance of a safety net even within acting. In Chippendales, I was doing a scene that was emotionally very challenging. And so I was using a personal memory to do it and I did it. You know, the reality of acting as you're doing it like 30, 40 times. But halfway through I was like, I was exhausted and I was like, oh, I can't do this anymore. I have to figure out ways to. I can't like access real life stuff to get there. It works, but it takes a toll on me personally. And that's when I realized that I don't think what I do should be making my life worth. Get ready for Jake versus Joshua. Judgment day. A colossal global showdown shaking the world of boxing. Jake El Gallo De Dorado Paul, the sport's biggest disruptor, steps into the ring against Britain's own Anthony AJ Joshua. The two time unified heavyweight world champion and Olympic gold medalist. This eight round heavyweight mega fight.

Interviewer (22:42)

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Kumail Nanjiani (22:43)

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Interviewer (24:18)

Your first 18 years to the degree you can. How different was it than when you came over here at 18, and how difficult was that transition for you?

Kumail Nanjiani (24:33)

I mean, I loved my upbringing, Had a great, had a great, great parents. Really, really lucky upbringing. Watched. I was always, like I said, Emily and I hosted a podcast called the Indoor Kids for many years about video games. I was certainly an indoor kid. Lot of movies, lot of video games. I mean, there was a time in my life where I watched a movie every single day. I'd go to the video store, I'd get seven movies, watch each one, take them back, get seven more. That was really what I really, really loved. Like, when I think back on and also having a we have a big family that's very close. So my dad has four sisters. They all have kids. My mom has a sister and a brother. They all have kids. They didn't all live in Karachi, but every Friday all of us would go out to dinner. So it was like 15, 20 people every single Friday. So those were the things I really loved as a kid. I loved my movies, my video games, and I loved, like just the fun of my extended family because I really have a great, great family like, very fun. Very, like, loud, very funny. Like, I was in Toronto doing standup, and then afterwards, a bunch of my family and I went out to a Pakistani restaurant. Karachi restaurant. So good. But I was just so, like, proud. I'm getting emotional. So proud of how, like, great my family is. So those are the things I really, really loved. Hated school, never liked it. Was very good at school. Got really good grades all the time, but put a lot of pressure on myself. There truly derived no joy from school. There were moments where I did derive joy from learning. Like, I really loved learning. Like, the reason I thought I wanted to be a scientist was I remember reading biology and chemistry, and when something made sense, it was a very exciting feeling. And I was like, oh, I feel like I understood. Like, I remember specifically. I don't know how old I was, but reading about the digestive system and it all making sense to me when I was like, I don't know, 12, 13. That's the other thing. What I was learning in college here, my first two years, was stuff that I learned already in high school before that, especially math and science. So I don't know how old I was, but I remember learning rudimentary version of how the digestive system works and how exciting it was to me. And so I was like, oh, this is why I want to be a scientist. Because I like making sense of things in that kind of way. But I did not enjoy school at all. I hated going. Every single day was miserable when I was sick. It was really exciting. Like, Emily liked going to school. I cannot imagine that.

Interviewer (27:17)

But you were also getting bullied, right, in high school or weren't you?

Kumail Nanjiani (27:20)

I got bullied my last two years because I switched schools. In the other school, I was totally fine. Like, I was invisible to the bullies. And I had, like, my group of friends, and we were all sort of like, I wouldn't. There were no, like, I wouldn't say what even what clique we were. We were just, like, friends. Actually, one time, I remember everyone liked me, you know, and up until my last two years of high school, I was like, the nerdy kid that I was also friends with the bad kids. Because I had a Breakfast Club situation where I was in, like, detention once. Cause I got roped into something. I never got in trouble, so this was a big deal. But I got detention with, like, some of the bad kids, and we had a great time together. And I was like, oh, these kids that I judged that they were like, the can. I swear. Yeah, the shitty kids. I was like, oh, they're great, they're cool. They're bad at school, but otherwise they're great.

Interviewer (28:14)

Well, it sounds like you probably just had a family that was surrounding you that while loving, was also pushing you toward ambition in some ways. Right? Like, I mean, it had to be. It couldn't be the arts as a career. It would have to be science. You weren't self motivated to be great at things and not get into trouble. Right. That had something to do with the environment you were in.

Kumail Nanjiani (28:34)

I mean, sort of. Not really. Obviously my parents wanted us to get good grades, but I did not really have parents who really were those kinds of like, who were really. I don't remember that being part of it. I remember it being self motivated because so much of it was, I think not knowing who I was or not knowing what I was and thinking, oh, I'm kind of smart. And so if I'm good in school, that's the only way I can have that. I saw having any value as a human being was being good at school. And so I think it came from that. Emily always says with me, she's like, the call is coming from inside the house. And it's been true my entire life. My parents didn't really push me super hard in that kind of way. They were very like, my brother, my younger brother, I think he's okay saying this. He did not get good grades and they obviously he would get in trouble. But I wasn't like, oh, I can't be like my brother because my parents will do this to me. They treated us pretty much the same. We weren't like horribly punished kids or anything at all. So it was always pretty self generated, like the need to study all the time. Like sometimes my mom would be like, what are you doing? You don't need to study all the time. Like, I remember I would have a movie on and I'd just be studying. Especially like our system was very based on like exams. Like you'd have testing at the end. And during those two weeks, I literally studied morning to night, all day, every day, more than anybody else I'd ever met. Like, none of my friends were doing it. My family wasn't doing. And you know, people in my family who got good grades weren't doing it. I was the one who was doing it. And I always had this math of like, if I study this much, then I can play video games for this long and I still have that math in my head.

Interviewer (30:27)

And so you're doing the Marvel movie over here and I can still do Video games over here. Well, now you're voicing video games as well.

Kumail Nanjiani (30:34)

But, like, yeah, if I've earned it, then I can do it. And that's what. You know, these are all patterns that have been with me since I was a kid, and they helped me. Obviously, I was gonna say your way.

Interviewer (30:45)

Of being, while it may have been anxious and may have been tormented, you probably also assigned it as the fuel for your success, I would imagine, right?

Kumail Nanjiani (30:53)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, certainly. But the balance has been, how do you have that be the fuel to my success while not being too hard on myself, you know? But, like, for instance, today, I didn't realize I had this, but it was messed up on my end. I woke up this morning and I had my morning. I had up until 11:30. My first thing was 11:30, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna watch cricket this morning, and that's all I'll do. And even giving myself permission to do that is so much progress. Just to spend, like three hours this morning watching something. And I've been, like, really doing stuff. I've been, like, very busy these days, you know, and even that giving myself permission to do that was like some. It was like an internal conversation.

Interviewer (31:36)

So you're just giving yourself little rewards for working hard.

Kumail Nanjiani (31:40)

Yeah, but even that's hard, you know, it's hard to give myself those rewards because it feels like I should be doing something that's. It's really a problem. Do you have that?

Interviewer (31:50)

I have trouble with balance, I would say. But I also really enjoy my work. So the work sometimes is the reward in and of itself.

Kumail Nanjiani (31:59)

I mean, truly, I love my work. So if I'm like, learning lines for a movie, there is a part of it that is. Is work. But if I'm not enjoying the actual doing of it, I'm taking pride in the fact that I'm getting it done. It's all positive feelings, and there's no part of my work that I don't enjoy. I'm very lucky to be able to.

Interviewer (32:21)

Say that I love that at the end of your special. Of course, after telling us about Bagel and your pathetic and extreme love of cats that I recognize because my wife also will do things like you do with Bagel and make an assortment of names for the cat that are ridiculous. At the end of it, you tackle therapy and you just tackle the all of it. In terms of pushing down some feelings, I'm curious, which you think has more to do with your till 40 years old or whatever, repression of feelings, would it be Cultural, or would it be gender if one were more responsible than the other for you not being comfortable the first 35 years of your life expressing yourself?

Kumail Nanjiani (33:03)

I mean, the way that gender is defined, and it is defined culturally. So if I had to pick one, I would say gender. I'm wanting to be like a man, but that is defined by culture, right? The culture where I'm from or the culture here. Men are supposed to be a certain kind of way, and there's a big overlap. Men don't get sad, Men don't get scared. Men walk a certain way, men talk a certain way. And I remember, I think that if you were. If you had to, obviously they're very linked. But I think to me, the importance of being a man, a certain kind of man, was the driving factor for not feeling these emotions or thinking that they're weakness or not liking myself for being so sensitive. Being sensitive is not manly. And being very aware of that as a teenager or even younger, being aware, like, oh, the way I speak is a little bit effeminate. The way I walk is a little bit. I remember working on my walk to be more manly, trying to walk differently. I remember wanting to get more into sports and those kinds of things. I mean, you know, cricket really, I think, crosses all genders in Pakistan. So I genuinely love cricket. But that wasn't like. My mom loves cricket too, you know, not as much as I do, but she really loves cricket. She cares. So I think it was being a man was a big thing, and that came from knowing that. But naturally, I did not have the signifiers of a Mandalina. So changing my walk, even now, I know I see people making fun of the way I speak, not because of my accent, but because the thing is effeminate. Whatever. I actually did a show with Nick Kroll last week. We were both on stage together, and he was like, what VHS did you have as a kid? And the first four that came to mind were Gremlins 2, who framed Roger Rabbit, Sound of Music, and Mary Poppins. And he was like, I always felt like you carry, like, the masculine and feminine together. And I was like, oh, I'll take that as a compliment. Because for so many years, I tried to deny that. I mean, I've watched Sound of Music and Mary Poppins more than most human adults. I've watched it over and over.

Interviewer (35:12)

So it has to be most surreal to you to be on a Marvel set, right? From there, if I take all of the things you've done, and I mean, you've done a lot of Fun stuff. Whether it's Veep. I mean, you've done your rank. It's pretty spectacular. But in terms of you looking around and being like, how the hell did this happen? It has to be a Marvel set. No.

Kumail Nanjiani (35:32)

Yeah. Being a superhero on a Marvel set truly was like, to me, the pinnacle. And I decided a few years ago, I did that movie before. Before I did that movie, I was like, I want to play a superhero. Why not? Why not me? And so, yeah, that really was the pinnacle of excitement. And it actually changed my relationship to my work because this ties in a lot of stuff. So I'm going to try and make sense a lot of the stuff we're talking about. For a long time, every new job working, I realized, was more. The anxiety was too much. When I think back on my years doing Silicon Valley, I wish I'd enjoyed it more. I mean, I did enjoy it, but I wish I hadn't been so hard on myself the whole time. For me, I would feel the sense of relief when the season was done, like, oh, I can't fuck this up anymore. Before it started, terrible anxiety, fear, do I deserve to be here? I shouldn't be here. They're gonna find out that kind of stuff. You know, especially being on that show with so many naturally funny people, I felt like I didn't deserve to be with them. And I know how much anxiety that was. And that was four months out of the year. And before I was about to go to Marvel, I was like, this is so big. This is so important to me that if I don't figure this aspect of it out, it's gonna flatten me. I'm not going to survive. And so I made a conscious decision in 2019, before I went to shoot that movie, I was like, I am going to have fun shooting this, no matter what. Joy is gonna be. My primary is gonna be the primary way I engage with my work for the next six months. And just deciding that really worked. I had a great time doing that movie. Obviously, there's pressures and stress, but I didn't really feel that. For me, I was like, I can't believe I get to do this. It was really, really exciting. And that changed my relationship to my work. Since then, every single job I've had, I get excited to do it. I do a lot of homework. I prepare a lot. I just did. Oh, Mary, we were talking about before we started recording, it's a play on Broadway six years ago, seven years ago, I would not have been able to handle the pressure of that. Where you have to go out and nail every single line night after night.

Interviewer (37:48)

What an interesting self awareness to come by though. To be somebody who considers himself laid back and doesn't realize he's angry, but then gets conscious enough to know this movie. That would be my dreams. The idea that I'm appearing in a Marvel movie would be something 17 year old me could not have possibly fathomed. To know yourself well enough, if I do not change my relationship with my work, this will crush me. And so you made the choice of Joy, which shows a spectacular self awareness and then changes your entire relationship with work, which to me is crazy. To just be able to choose it, to trust the preparation and that you're good enough, that you're not a fraud, that you're not fooling everybody. And then to just do it like that. That has to be a product of your relationship, midlife and a lifetime of learning.

Kumail Nanjiani (38:39)

Yeah, but it really was. I mean, thank you for putting it that way. It was self defense. It really was a survival thing. I was like, I'm not gonna come out of this grinder alive if I don't change how I approach it. And I had little moment, like I had little previews of what that life could be like, even though I hadn't really lived it. Sometimes when I was doing standup on stage, when I was really loose, I could feel like I could riff and come up with stuff I could not come up with if I sat down and wrote. So I understood that having no pressure, being completely in the moment, being completely loose and having fun was creatively good for me. So I understood that that's the mind space I want to be in. Letting that go, forgetting, turning certain parts of my brain off, is when I'm best on the set of Silicon Valley. You know, I plan stuff and whatever, but the stuff that happened just in the moment was the stuff I was like that felt so much more alive than everything, than anything else. So it was self preservation, but also knowing that I was gonna be. I'm at my best when I'm loose and enjoying myself. Even doing something like welcome to Chippendales, which is a very dark character. There was joy in doing that for.

Interviewer (39:50)

But how much work are you doing before you come to this realization? Three quarters of your body of work?

Kumail Nanjiani (39:55)

Yeah, a lot of work. I mean, you know, when I shot the Big Sick, that was a very stressful experience. I remember we were shooting the last scene of the movie and it was towards the end of. Towards the end of the shoot. And I mean, what A. Emily and I talk about how we need another word for blessed that isn't like religiously loaded. We need like a non denominational blessed. Because I say blessed, then suddenly, you know, it conjures images of relig. That was such a blessed, non denominationally blessed experience. Like getting to work with those people. Zoe, Holly, Ray, Michael, Judd, Barry. I mean, all these amazing people. When I look back on it, the entire time I was just thinking, don't fuck this up. Don't fuck this up. Don't fuck this up.

Interviewer (40:41)

And this is true of Portlandia, of Veep, of Franklin and Bash, of only murders in the building, or only murders in the building is later.

Kumail Nanjiani (40:48)

And you've got only murders is later. It's certainly true for Franklin and Bash. With Portlandia, it isn't really because there's no script and it's all improv. So there is truly no way to be like, oh, I gotta nail this line. You just really have to show up, talk to Fred and Carrie and go. Now. I would do a lot of research for that. My first thing I did on that was I was doing a cell phone salesman. So even that lot of homework, I looked up the scripts that they. Cause you know, you've called back in the day when you're calling to change your plan and you're like, I just want to talk to a person. I know you're a person at some point, but you're not a person right now. You're like reading, like dialogue trees. So I looked up those dialogue trees and I learned them, I memorized them. I looked up a lot of cell phone models. I thought they were as ridiculous as car models, you know, So I sort of was like, okay, so this is the area. So I went in with a lot of information there, and I was nervous to start, but soon as I started, you have to be so present that it takes away. And that's also what I love about acting, is that that you're so present when the cameras are rolling. I'm not thinking about what I just did or what I'm gonna do. I'm just listening to you, watching you and reacting to you. That's really true.

Interviewer (41:56)

You've realized your mind is a poison, right? I don't know when it is. I always trusted my mind, thinking it's the reason that I get places. And then I realized, well, it's also the thing that defines me.

Kumail Nanjiani (42:06)

Oh, my God. Emily always says, your brain doesn't know anything. Your brain is stupid. And I think with acting, with all my work writing Obviously, there is an intellectual aspect to it, but really, it's. Whatever is happening, whatever's reacting, you know, is when I'm at my best. So Franklin and Bash, full of fear the whole time. Silicon Valley, full of fear almost the whole time. Veep, full of fear again. All the people around me were so good, right?

Interviewer (42:34)

Everyone's talented. All the people you're working with are super talented, and you know it.

Kumail Nanjiani (42:39)

And, you know, doing Veep was. You know, I auditioned with Julia Louis Dreyfus, and we improvised, and I got that part, and then we did, like, a bunch of rehearsals. So I went, yeah, but full of fear, full of terror. So that was. And then now when I start a new job, there's always nerves, right? But. And the other thing is, when I was going to these jobs, full of fear, nobody knew but me. I wasn't telling Emily. I wasn't telling Emily, like, hey, I'm really nervous for this. I just didn't think that that was a possibility. I thought saying it out loud would make it more real. But saying it out loud takes its power away, is what I've learned. So now I'm starting a new job, and I'm nervous. I will tell Emily, like, hey, I'm actually kind of nervous about this one. I'm a little scared. And that's been so helpful doing O Mary. You know, I was really, really open about how scared I was. That's the Broadway play. I'd never done a play in my life. I was very, very open and communicative about how scared I was going into that with Emily and with the other people, like, with the director, with the other actors, I was, wow.

Interviewer (43:41)

But so you seeing the achievement and just speaking it out loud to your wife suggests that you were super repressed before that. Like, just, like, just alone with all of it stoic. No one would have any idea, Right? Except when the anger makes an appearance, and then it's just confusing to people.

Kumail Nanjiani (43:57)

Yeah. I remember I did a live show years ago, and someone asked me. She's like. She's like, how are you so confident? And I was like, what? That is crazy that someone would think that about me. I do not. I feel more confident now than I ever have in my life. Just because, you know, Emily would often be like. And this is a very nice thing to say, sounds like I'm maybe talking myself up. She'd be like, I wish you could see yourself the way other people see you.

Interviewer (44:26)

Or the way she sees you.

Kumail Nanjiani (44:27)

Or the way she sees me. Yeah. I mean, the way she Sees me, you know, she's so wrong. But yeah, it was really, really. I would not say any of those experiences were joyful. And it was all completely my fault. As Emily says, the call is coming from inside the house. But Eternals changed my relationship to my work in that way. So I just found out I'm gonna be acting in something in a couple months early next year. And I cannot wait to get started. Now. In other situations, I would have been like, I know I have a lot of work to do. I have a lot of prep to do do. Between now and then the other time, it would be like, oh, my God, I can't wait for this to be over. And now I can't wait for it to start. I'm so excited to do it. It's really. And it really does come from the looseness of stand up. You know, I always felt like when you're on stage, I know there's like a neurological thing that happens. It's called a flow state. It's like a real thing.

Interviewer (45:28)

It's the zone.

Kumail Nanjiani (45:28)

In sports, it's the zone. Right. You know, when someone.

Interviewer (45:31)

I recognized it in your special. I didn't think that the stuff you were doing with the crowd was rehearsed. I thought that that was all you off the top of your head.

Kumail Nanjiani (45:39)

Yeah.

Interviewer (45:39)

Quick.

Kumail Nanjiani (45:40)

Yeah. And I feel really lucky in that when I record recorded that special, I recorded it at the exact right moment where I felt very confident in every single part of it. But I wasn't sick of it yet. I hadn't gone into the rote. Cause that happens with standup. You do it a lot and then suddenly you're like. Before I was like recording specials when I was just doing stand up to like crowds and it was. Was disappearing. That was my gauge for a bit is done was when like, oh, they're not laughing anymore. Cause it's rote. I never got to that point with any of the material I did on stage. Cause I did that special really quickly. Like from deciding I want to start stand up again. Eight year, you know, hadn't done it in eight years. From that to recording the special was a year and a half, which is very quick. From like no material, having not done any standup to recording.

Interviewer (46:31)

It was that scary too? Or were you excited about that about stand up? Was it scary? You go eight years without doing it.

Kumail Nanjiani (46:38)

It was very scary.

Interviewer (46:39)

You've got this new relationship with who you are. You're more confident than you've been. I would have assumed it was the muscles you're Giving it all these other attributes, I would have assumed that you.

Kumail Nanjiani (46:48)

Just became, no, but we can talk about that. That's interesting.

Interviewer (46:50)

You're not tired of talking about your body?

Kumail Nanjiani (46:52)

No, but I could talk about it, how it related to my stand up specifically. Very scared to go back because I had not. I will be honest, I had not missed doing stand up because I was feeling creatively fulfilled, doing all this other stuff. What I missed was being good at something that. Was being good at something that I wasn't good at anymore. I hated the feeling of, like, I remember at a certain. There were a couple years when I was in New York where I was like, I've never been as confident about anything in my life as I was about Stan up in that period where I was like, I can go up in front of any crowd and do well right now with no material. And when I think back on that, I was like. That felt like a different person. I could not imagine thinking like that. So it was very, very scary. And it was. It was scary for a bunch of different reasons. It was scary. More scary was, what if I don't. What if I can't do it anymore? What if I don't have it? It takes so long to, like, get good at it. What if that part of me is dead? Which is fine. You know, I don't. I like this person that I am now.

Interviewer (47:51)

Yeah, but you don't want to learn that on stage.

Kumail Nanjiani (47:52)

Right? And that's the only way to learn it. You can only learn it on stage. And so, yeah, I was really, really scared to go back to stand up. I went back again out of necessity because the strikes were happening. And I was about to go shoot this movie. Suddenly the strikes happened. I couldn't do anything. And I was very frustrated creatively. And I was like, I have to go do stand up, otherwise I'm not gonna survive however many months this is gonna be.

Interviewer (48:16)

What represents the greatest fear in all of this stuff that we're talking about, what you regard as the most afraid you've been. They're not all the same. Right. They're different every time. Is it Silicon Valley, you said that had a great deal of fear, but I don't know what would classify for you as the most terrified you were.

Kumail Nanjiani (48:35)

Out of all the jobs. I've never.

Interviewer (48:36)

Yeah, just everything beforehand.

Kumail Nanjiani (48:38)

Yeah. Silicon Valley, I would say, because it was. I was doing a show with people, you know, who I looked up to, people I was friends with, but also like Mike Judge. I mean, Beavis and Butt Head was one of my favorite things, you know?

Interviewer (48:51)

Oh, so you're heroes too. You're sort of.

Kumail Nanjiani (48:53)

Yeah. So I'm working with people. I'm like, I know this is the big boy pool, you know, I know this is like Adult Swim. This is the real deal working with, like, legit people. It's not time to. The time to, like, practice and train is done. This is pay off.

Interviewer (49:07)

And you don't feel like you belong, right?

Kumail Nanjiani (49:08)

And I don't feel like I belong. I don't feel like I deserve to be here with these people. They're so talented and funny. When I say that to them, I was like, you know how they're like, what are you talking about? Like, nobody else saw that. I'm the only one who saw it.

Interviewer (49:19)

But none of them are feeling it either. This is unique to you. Once you start expressing it to others, they're not all telling you, yeah, I have imposter syndrome too. No, they're not. They're confident in a way you don't understand.

Kumail Nanjiani (49:30)

I think that crew felt pretty confident about the place they were in at the time. Like, someone like Martin, who I'm still really good friends with, knows he's a very good actor. He knows that he could do a lot of things. He has a lot of confidence in that, and rightfully so. He's phenomenal. I've told him since then, I was like, I wish I was present enough to learn from you for those six years, because that's the thing I value most now. You can't control. If I'm acting in something, I can't control how it's gonna turn out. I can control my experience of it, and I can control what I learned. And I really, really genuinely. I know it sounds cliche. Every job is worth it to me because I always learn something about myself or I pick up tricks from other people, all that kind of stuff.

Interviewer (50:13)

Age is so helpful here, though, right? It's not just that youth is wasted on the young. The. When I talk to athletes because their careers so often end at about late 30s or whatever, they're like, I wish I'd enjoyed it more. But you feel like you're being chased all the time. You feel like part of what makes you good is that you always feel like you're being chased. So you stay hungry, and it becomes a cycle of. You don't enjoy much of what you're doing, right? This is the sweet spot for you to be confident and just take stuff that you know you can enjoy.

Kumail Nanjiani (50:42)

And feeling like, I still have a lot to learn. And I cannot wait to get at it. You know, I truly, truly like, you know, Silicon Valley. We were talking about Silicon Valley. Like I said, I wasn't present enough to learn. I wish I had. And I feel like I personally. I mean, I learned a lot. I truly did learn a lot, but I learned a lot later. Looking back, I felt like I internalized some of that stuff when I was already done with it. But doing Chippendales with people like Annaleigh Ashford and Marie Bartlett, Robin, all these amazing actors, I learned so much that was like. I was in, like, film school. I was in acting school for four months with the best actors in the States United Universe, you know, and actively being aware of how much I was learning from them. So I am in the sweet spot because I do feel confident, but I still feel like I have, like, oceans to learn in this regard, you know?

Interviewer (51:34)

Well, this is. This is wonderful, because now the science book nerd in you, who loved studying 12 hours a day, now the preparation, if you're ambitious and eager about learning, right, then all of a sudden, just all of. Of all of Hollywood opens up to you. All of creativity opens up to you.

Kumail Nanjiani (51:52)

Yeah. And I really, really am. I value it genuinely very much, and I love it very much. To me, whenever people ask me how I choose acting roles, I want it to be, like, 10 to 20% outside of what I know. So I remember reading all the scripts for Chippendales and being like, I don't know how to do this scene right now.

Interviewer (52:13)

I admired the choice that you made there. Like, when I saw you in that.

Kumail Nanjiani (52:16)

I'm like, whoa, it's a big swing.

Interviewer (52:19)

Just so different.

Kumail Nanjiani (52:20)

It's so different. And I love doing that. I did a part in Poker Face last year that was also, like. I played, like, a Florida panhandle cop. So different from me. But I learned the accent, and I did it all. And that was really, really thrilling to do, you know, with acting. For me, it's like, how many things can I find that I can hold onto as the character that helped me? And with Steve and Chippendale, there's always an image that helps me. And it takes months to get to the point. Like, with Chippendales, I knew I had four months to prepare. And it's a little scary because the first couple months, you're like, what if I don't figure out what he is? And then for me, there's always an image or something that suddenly I'm like, okay, I understand what this is now. But getting to that Image takes a while for me, but. Yeah, but I think it's also trusting myself to be able to do a performance like that. Cause he's so different from me. He walks so differently. He talks so differently. That's the other thing is realizing, like, in certain ways, it's even hard to say, I do know what I'm talking about. I feel confident enough to be like, hey, this thing. I think it should be like this. So just like yesterday, I had a conversation with the director for a movie I want to do. And I was like, I love this script. Here are some things about this specific character that I think I would like to do. And just being able to have that confidence to be like, this is a great script. The writer's phenomenal.

Interviewer (53:51)

You're saying as you speak it out loud now that it's hard for you to say that. I know what I'm doing here.

Kumail Nanjiani (53:56)

It's even hard for me to say what I want.

Interviewer (53:59)

I know what I want is something that's hard for you to say.

Kumail Nanjiani (54:03)

I know what I want is hard for me to say. And. And also that I know what I want is going to make the movie better. I know that if you listen to this, you don't have to listen to all of it, but if we can find a way to make this work, I think the movie's better.

Interviewer (54:18)

But it's hard for you to say that. I have the confidence in my expertise and my talent and my discernment that what I think here is going to make this better. It's hard for you to say.

Kumail Nanjiani (54:28)

It is. It sounds arrogant. It sounds. You know, it sounds like who I'm. Like, who am I to say? These people obviously know what they're doing.

Interviewer (54:35)

But you've done some learning over the last 20 years.

Kumail Nanjiani (54:38)

Yeah, I really have. And I have learned. Like, there's a movie I want to direct now I've never directed before. And I'm really having this strong feeling where I'm like, this movie. I know this movie. I feel like at this point in time, I didn't write it, Emily, and I rewrote it. But I know at this point, there is no one in the world who knows this movie better than I do. There's truly nobody in the world. And that is a great feeling that happens when you're, like, playing a character, too, where you're like, I know this character better than anybody else in the world. And being able to even articulate that, I think it took me a long time to be able to say that. And even Now I feel like you clocked. I feel a little weird saying it.

Interviewer (55:20)

Tell me about what sent you to therapy. Really?

Kumail Nanjiani (55:26)

So I started taking acting classes because I knew I wanted to make the big sick. And actually, I started getting acting classes because there was a specific scene in Silicon Valley where I was like, oh, I don't have access to this. There's a thing happening here that I need to do. And what it was was, I think it's the end of season two or three. It's really great where we're at the house and Thomas Richard is outside doing a court case. And it's intercutting back and forth, and each time it comes back to us, we're a little more freaked out. So the stakes are raised incrementally, 20% each time. And I was like, oh, I know how to be freaked out. I know how to not be freaked out, but I don't know how to do all the steps in between. I remember specifically being like, okay, this is the moment where I decided I need to take acting classes. Because you're afraid to open that door, because behind that door is the knowledge of how much you don't know. That's the most terrifying thing to me. Before you get to learning, you have to accept that you need to learn. And accepting that you need to learn is very, very scary. And so that was the moment where I was like, I need to figure this out. I don't have access to this. If I want to hang with all these people, I got to get good at this. And then around that same time, we started talking about doing the Big Sick. We were writing it. Judd Apatow was producing it. So I was like, if I want to have a shot at making this, I need to figure this out. So I started taking acting classes then. And my acting teacher, Myra Turley, who I still work with, who, you know, one of the people who's changed my life, you have to, like, access your own feelings. And as I was doing that, I was like, oh, my God, there is so much in here. There's so much in here. And I had no idea it was in here, you know, because you think you're a certain way. I had a certain narrative about myself laid back, whatever. And then as soon as I started, like, trying to access. And you can access it by doing things with the body subtly was like getting a glimpse of everything that was inside. And it was like. It was like a horror movie. I was like, oh, my God. Like, you know, do you know Hellraiser? You know, those movies you know when you get a glimpse of like hell with the Cenobites, it's like just a flash of character sees it.

Interviewer (57:36)

So this is the lagoon of feelings I've pushed down since I was 12.

Kumail Nanjiani (57:40)

Oh my God. Shut that door. Oh, wow. What was that? Yeah, it was like that. It was like, you know when in Nightmare on Elm street, when sometimes they fall asleep for a second in the Glimpse of Hell world and then they wake up. It was like that. But I saw, I was like, okay, I need to do this for two reasons. One, cause I wanted to get really good at acting. So it really started from a practical place. I was like, I need to know all this stuff that's going on inside here that I know now is there and it's undeniable. Cause you open the door and then you're like, shut it again. And that's when I was like, okay, there's a lot here. In order to be a better actor, I also need to go to therapy to see what, what all is going on in there. So it was actually, I took acting classes for years. I didn't start going to therapy until much later. But it really was from that and Emily encouraging me, being like, there's so much inside you that you don't know. You need to really. Because she was a therapist for many years and she really, really encouraged me and pushed me to. And I know how it sounds, your spouse being like, you need to go to therapy. No, but it was supportive.

Interviewer (58:47)

It was love. It's not just supportive, it's just you need to love yourself. I mean, you need to forgive yourself better. I've got a lot of questions about what it's like to work with Emily, and I want to get to those in a second. But when you're talking about all of the fear and anxiety and doubt in your path, where did you get to Joy? Like, where did you. Was it just with the conscious decision after the pandemic that I am going to do this Marvel film, which I've read, didn't go the way that it wanted to in terms of you signed a six part deal. And some of that hasn't gone the way that it was anticipated. But you made a choice at the beginning, end of, and that was it. That's all you had to do was choose Joy.

Kumail Nanjiani (59:36)

I mean, that was most of the battle. It's weird, you know, Emily always is like, it's not just self awareness, it's also, you gotta do something about it. So it came from that. By that point I'd realized Like, oh, work is very hard for me. I make it very hard for myself. I do not enjoy it. So I'd understood all that. And so I was like, okay, now it's time for the second step, which is doing something about it. And truly, when I chose, like, I'm gonna be joyful during this, it was like a weight lifted off me. It's like I gave myself permission to have fun doing it. That was a huge part of it. I realized, I thought that you are just the way you are. It's not true. You're choosing it, like. And, you know, I meditate every day now, almost every day. But when I meditate, I'm realizing, oh, I'm choosing to be a certain way. You can change your mood at certain times.

Interviewer (60:31)

Well, the meditation, though, is. Forgive me for interrupting. I would imagine it has to do with whatever you've learned about present. I have heard that phrase for many, many years. It is not until recently, with age, with mortality, that I've sort of recognized, ah, if I'm not living in regret or I'm not living in fear, if I'm not in the future, if I'm not in the past, if I'm right here and aware and conscious of what it is that's happening. But it took me a long time to get there. And meditation has been helpful in that regard, in that you're just, you know, you're just trying to block out thoughts. You're aspiring to just be centered in your breathing. Yeah.

Kumail Nanjiani (61:08)

And I find, you know, I sort of tell a lot of people about it, and I obviously, you know, in this industry, I have a lot of friends who are anxious, and they're like, it's just. I don't know what to do. Like, I feel like I'm not good at it. I'm like, there's no good or bad at it. The attempt is what matters. So sometimes I'll have sessions where I'm done, where I'm like, wow, that was transformative. And then sometimes nothing happens. But even when nothing happens, a little something happens. I've never had a meditation session that I've regretted or even one that I've thought didn't give me anything. Even from the very beginning, the first time I did it, I was like, that was valuable.

Interviewer (61:43)

It's just the choice to still your mind, right?

Kumail Nanjiani (61:45)

Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to still your mind. But even if you're not successful in it, just the attempt is worthwhile. Because then even you find out sitting there, oh, these are the things that are bothering me right now, even that awareness is important. So really, it was the choice to have it be a joyful experience that did a lot for me. But then it sort of evolved since then, too, in that I'm trying to be able to. I'm trying to see how to articulate it. There's. I find the joy in learning. I find the joy in knowing what I know and knowing what I don't know. And knowing what I know is. Is hard to still admit. It just makes you. It makes me a better person. It makes me better at my work. It also makes me, My writing deeper too. Like, it makes me just. I don't know, just get inside myself more.

Interviewer (62:46)

You say the joy of learning, but you also say it's very scary. You seem to have a much different relationship with learning, learning than I do in that I sometimes shackle myself because learning requires failure. And if I'm hard on myself about failure, I then don't try things that I know I'm going to fail at when I'm not going to learn them, if I'm not willing to embrace the trying of the trying.

Kumail Nanjiani (63:10)

Yeah, for me, I learned that lesson sort of undeniably in acting, where it's like, let's say you're doing six takes. And I work with people.

Interviewer (63:19)

Who will.

Kumail Nanjiani (63:19)

Try different things every time. I don't mean they're trying new words. They're just taking different swings each time. And if it doesn't work, they're like, oh, that didn't work. That giving yourself. People ask me, directors will ask me, what do you value as a director, in a director, as an actor? Just the room to fail, the safety to fail is by far the most important environment that a director can create, is feeling okay with failure. And all through Silicon Valley, it wasn't their fault on me, if I had a take that was bad, I was very hard on myself. Now if I try something and a take doesn't work, it's like, okay, great, let's do something else. Let's go again. Let's try something else. So for me, the importance or the failure is necessary. And I realized that in acting, when I'm at my best, I'm failing more often than I'm not on set. I'll do a take. You know, it takes you like two or three takes to, like, get one where you're like, all right, now I understand this scene. Now let's try different things. When you're trying different things, more often than not they don't work. But when they do work, it can be really magical.

Interviewer (64:29)

Tell me about working with Emily. What are the challenges that people might not see? There are a great many dangers in working together. The foundation of your relationship, I would imagine, started with the work.

Kumail Nanjiani (64:44)

Well, we were together for a few years before we started working together, and we did go quite slowly in that I was hosting something and she was producing it. So it wasn't. We were working together, but it wasn't creative work together, which to me is the most challenging. And then we were hosting a podcast together, and that's creative work, but not really. You're not sitting down to be like, okay, let's figure this out. It's sort of very in the moment. So when we first wrote the Big Sick together, that was the first time we had creatively engaged. And there is danger in working with a spouse because the fight can go all the way down. If you're working with a co worker, you can get into it, but there's a floor as to how deep the battle can go with this. It can get personal, and suddenly you're in. So, again, it's been a lot of conversation. I feel like we've gotten very good at it now still. There's still disagreements and challenges and all that, but you really have to go, okay, now we're in work mode. And again, just saying that does make a difference. So, like me saying, I'm going to be joyful, it does make a difference. We're in work mode. It does make a difference. And when you live with someone who's a coworker, you could really be at work the whole time. That's a danger. So we have rules. We like, if it's a weekend, she has an idea, she has to ask permission. She's like, hey, can we talk about work for a second? We stick to that. We've had that rule forever. We don't talk about work in bed at all. That kind of stuff is very important. It's also, you know, I mean, for me, the excitement of it is I think she's a phenomenal writer. And I'm the first person in the world that, like, gets to read, that gets to look inside her brain. Like, I'm like, I'll read pages. And I'm like, you just sat there and you read this. This came out of you just like, when you were, like, there when I saw you, this is what you were working on. It's such a privilege, but it's still challenging because writing is such a personal thing. And it can be. If she's like, hey, I don't like this.

Interviewer (66:46)

Vulnerable, intimate, super intimate feelings get hurt.

Kumail Nanjiani (66:50)

And again, for me, I have to say, like, my feelings are hurt about this.

Interviewer (66:54)

Well, your feelings being hurt. Like, I can't imagine what happened to you post 911 where you're doing standup and you're getting heckled and it.

Kumail Nanjiani (67:03)

What a segue, by the way.

Interviewer (67:04)

Well, it just. I can't imagine because you're sensitive. That seems like a terrible position to be in, choosing to be on stage doing comedy. And now. And now the heckler's in your feelings.

Kumail Nanjiani (67:15)

A lot of things happen at the same time when someone heckles you for that one. There is at its core a safety net where you understand it's not about me, it's about them. It's their fault. They're not really. If someone's really like heckling me in a personal way or they see inside my soul and they're heckling me, that's genuinely hurtful. This I understand. It's how. It's what I represent to them in this moment. I know the fault is theirs. However, you feel very reduced. You feel very flattened to like one aspect of you, you know, which is the fact that I'm brown. And even though you understand it's their fault, it does make you feel smaller. I would never. That wasn't something I ever internalized. So getting heckled in that way wasn't, I say, damaging in the way that like the Emily reading a line I wrote and going, I don't like this has the potential to be way more damaging than someone saying, hey, where's Osama? It's not gonna get deep. It's something that I am in mortal danger. So that's something. But it's not something I'm gonna carry with me all week. It's just something for me, the heckling thing was, oh, I need to figure out how to deal with it. That's actually when I started learning to be more present on stage and having to riff was from that stuff was from getting heckled and being like, if I want to do this, I have to figure out how to react to something that's just happened in the room. Not just heckling, other stuff too. Other kinds of heckles, not just racist heckles. And that led to me realizing all this stuff we're talking about. So it does come in a way grateful for post 911 onstage racist heckling because it led me to where I am now, which is the value of understanding, of being in the present a.

Interviewer (69:14)

Non denominational blessing of sorts.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:16)

Yes.

Interviewer (69:17)

Thank you for being so gentle about that segue straight from your wife.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:22)

Oh, no, no, no. Please don't be honest.

Interviewer (69:23)

Heckling.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:24)

Are you being hard on yourself for it?

Interviewer (69:26)

I'm sensitive more than hard on myself.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:28)

Okay, don't be sensitive. I truly, truly, truly.

Interviewer (69:31)

That was a terrible segment.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:32)

No, no, do not see. Let me take this from you. This is mine. This is not on your.

Interviewer (69:36)

You're gonna take it, right?

Kumail Nanjiani (69:37)

I'm sorry I said that. I did not mean it was anything.

Interviewer (69:40)

It was totally accurate. Yeah, it was, but you shouldn't take it back. It was a hard truth, I had to say.

Kumail Nanjiani (69:46)

It made the podcast better. It made it more interesting. It really did. So that you brought up something that was interesting to you that you wanted to talk about, and I think me sort of, it just made it an interesting moment, so be thankful to yourself for it.

Interviewer (70:00)

We didn't get to the muscles. We're out of time.

Kumail Nanjiani (70:02)

Oh, we are.

Interviewer (70:03)

We're out of time.

Kumail Nanjiani (70:03)

I'll tell you really quickly how muscles change that. When I started doing standup again, you.

Interviewer (70:08)

Don'T have to rush.

Kumail Nanjiani (70:09)

I was defaulting to how I used to be on stage 10 years ago. That was my muscle memory, pardon the pun. Emily said, the way people perceive you is very different from how you perceive yourself and how people used to perceive you. So she's like, your delivery is gonna have to change. Who you are on stage is gonna have to change because people's experience of you is very, very different. And then she's the one who also said all this stuff you talk about masculinity and vulnerability and the importance of it. She's like, coming from someone who looks like you now, who sort of in some ways represents physically a type of man, that, again, hard for me to say. People do aspire to in terms of physical form. Like, I understand now that people look at me and some men are like, I would like to look like that only because they say to me all the goddamn time, she said, looking the way you do now, it is valuable to have you saying certain things. If you're a nerd on stage and you look nerdy and you're talking about, like, it's important to be vulnerable, that's not as perhaps impactful as me being muscly on stage and saying, talking about the importance of being valuable and the importance of talking about that certain kind of masculinity and what its strengths and its weaknesses, you know? So all that, my hour long special now is what it is because I wanted to be vulnerable on stage, especially because I look different now.

Interviewer (71:46)

Night Thoughts is the name of the special. It's Hulu. It debuts tomorrow, December 19th. If indeed you're watching this December 18th. Thank you so much. Also, Ella McKay is in theaters now.

Kumail Nanjiani (71:57)

Yeah. And I'm in the next season of Fallout. So Fallout season 2, which is out right now or coming out soon. I'm in a couple episodes. I love that show.

Interviewer (72:06)

Really appreciate it. I hope I get to do this with you again. There's a whole lot of ground that I did not cover.

Kumail Nanjiani (72:10)

Let's do it. I very much enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

Interviewer (72:14)

Thank you, sir.