South Beach Sessions - Lewis Black

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz – South Beach Sessions featuring Lewis Black

Introduction In the December 19, 2024 episode of South Beach Sessions on The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz, renowned comedian and actor Lewis Black joins host Will Sachs for an in-depth conversation about his extensive career, personal struggles, and the profound influences that have shaped his comedic voice. Filmed at the Elser Hotel in Downtown Miami, this episode delves into Black's journey from aspiring playwright to celebrated stand-up comic, exploring themes of grief, family dynamics, and the cathartic power of humor.

Lewis Black's Career Overview Lewis Black, a staple in the comedy industry for nearly four decades, boasts an impressive resume that includes:

• 200 shows per year (01:20)
• 40 plays
• 3 bestselling books
• 12 comedy albums
• 14 specials
• 2 Grammys
• 20,000 shows in his lifetime (01:34)

Despite his remarkable achievements, Black humbly acknowledges uncertainties in some of his figures, maintaining a grounded perspective on his prolific career.

Transition from Playwriting to Stand-up Comedy Originally aspiring to be a playwright, Black's shift towards stand-up comedy was catalyzed by disillusioning experiences in the theater world. He describes the traditional theater environment as "an abusive orphanage" (02:54), highlighting the lack of immediate feedback compared to the spontaneous laughter of a live comedy audience. This frustration led him to pursue stand-up, where the instant gratification of audience reactions provided the fulfillment he yearned for.

Impact of Brother's Death A pivotal moment in Black's life was the passing of his brother, which he credits with opening new doors in his career:

• Spiritual Influence: Black believes his brother's death had a spiritual component that pushed him towards greater success in comedy. He shares, “My brother passed away and I was just kind of got my foot into comedy” (07:51).
• Career Acceleration: Following his brother's death, opportunities like a one-man show in New York City began to materialize rapidly, suggesting a profound connection between his grief and creative breakthrough.

Family Dynamics and Influence Black provides a candid look into his family life, revealing complex relationships that have significantly influenced his persona and comedic style:

• Mother’s Influence: His mother, Jeanette, was a brilliant but strict teacher who instilled in Black a sharp sense of sarcasm and a dark humor. Black explains that her style "was sarcasm was her sword" (27:11), shaping his ability to blend anger with humor without crossing into cruelty.
• Father’s Influence: Contrasting his mother, his father, Sam Black, was a mechanical engineer with a gentle demeanor. Sam's perseverance and integrity inspired Lewis, teaching him the importance of commitment and humility in his craft.

Black recounts his parents' differing approaches to life and work, which created a unique environment that fostered his comedic talents while also instilling a deep-seated sense of responsibility and introspection.

Relationships and Personal Life Black reflects on how his upbringing impacted his ability to form and maintain personal relationships:

• Yelling as Love: Growing up, Black equated constant yelling with love and communication, a misconception that later affected his adult relationships. He shares, “I thought yelling was love” (34:31), highlighting the challenges he faces in expressing affection without conflict.
• Solo Pursuit of Career: Devoting himself to his career often left Black feeling isolated, leading him to question the depth and authenticity of his connections outside the stage.

The Pandemic's Impact The COVID-19 pandemic was a challenging period for Black, exacerbating feelings of isolation and anxiety:

• Psychological Strain: Black describes the pandemic as "the worst period" he ever experienced, detailing how prolonged isolation led to intense self-scrutiny and mental distress (68:55).
• Comedy as a Coping Mechanism: Despite the hardships, Black used comedy to process his emotions, performing routines that shared his struggles with anxiety and depression, which resonated deeply with audiences.

Crafting the Comedic Persona Central to Black's comedic identity is his ability to channel anger into humor:

• Anger as a Tool: Black emphasizes that his comedy begins with anger, stating, “My comedy begins with anger. I'm funniest when I'm angry” (51:20). This approach allows him to address societal issues and personal frustrations in a relatable and engaging manner.
• Balance Between Persona and Self: While his on-stage persona is characterized by intense anger, Black maintains a separation between his public and private selves. He explains, “I am not like that all the time. I'm not like that all the time” (52:33), ensuring that his personal well-being remains intact despite the aggressive nature of his act.

Conclusion Lewis Black's episode on South Beach Sessions offers a comprehensive look into the life of a comedian whose work is deeply intertwined with personal experiences and emotional resilience. From his roots in theater to his evolution as a stand-up legend, Black's narrative underscores the transformative power of humor in navigating grief, familial expectations, and global crises. His candid reflections provide valuable insights into the complexities of maintaining authenticity and emotional health in the high-pressure world of comedy.

Notable Quotes

• Will Sachs: "You usually don't get to do it for close to 40 years. Usually you age out, something happens and it's hard to keep. But he's got his present tour, which he claims is the last one. I do not believe him." (00:45)

• Lewis Black: “It was, you know, for. For them there was a real bond. I mean, those two really had that kind of real love thing.” (30:08)

• Lewis Black: “You have to have this sense that you're in part kidding, that you mean it, but you're kidding, you know.” (28:30)

• Lewis Black: “You can separate... But if I was like that all the time, I'd be dead by the time I was 40.” (52:33)

• Will Sachs: "So which is the long term relationship for you? If you can only pick one? Is it with the audience or is it with the art?" (40:44)

Timestamps Reference

• 00:45: Introduction to Lewis Black and his career longevity.
• 01:20: Discussion on Black's performance numbers.
• 01:34: Clarification of career statistics.
• 02:54: Black describes the transition from playwriting to stand-up.
• 07:51: Impact of his brother's death on his career.
• 27:11: Influence of his mother's sarcasm on his humor.
• 34:31: Black equates yelling with love from his upbringing.
• 40:44: Will Sachs questions the balance between audience and art relationships.
• 51:20: Black identifies anger as the cornerstone of his comedy.
• 52:33: Separation between Black's on-stage persona and personal life.
• 68:55: Black discusses the pandemic's impact on his mental health.

Note: Timestamps are indicative and correspond to the points in the transcript where each topic is discussed.

Transcript

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[Will Sachs]

Hello and welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm particularly excited about this one because this man is a giant, a titan in the comedy industry. You usually don't get to do it for close to 40 years. Usually you age out, something happens and it's hard to keep. But he's got his present tour, which he claims is the last one. I do not believe him. Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road, the final tour. You can find [e-mail] I want to see if some of these numbers are right because you have done in some years, 250 shows in a year.

[Lewis Black]

Well, close to that, but 200.

[Will Sachs]

Okay, so if I say 40 plays, three bestselling books, 12 comedy albums, 14 specials, two Grammys, what am I missing? And about 20,000 shows in a lifetime.

[Lewis Black]

I don't know if that what the number is, but the, all the other numbers were kind of around the right place.

[Will Sachs]

Okay, what are you proudest of in there? Like, if I tell you there, you can only choose one of those things to hold up as the best part of your legacy. What do you assign the greatest worth to?

[Lewis Black]

Well, it would be stand up because I wanted to be a playwright and along the way I kind of. Because I was doing that and it was at a drama school. The, the, the, the. I've learned from the actors there. So I started to perform more and be in plays more. So I mean it. But, you know, so it was. I was writing plays and then do. And then acting in shows and, and, and, and I thought, and, and I never wanted to direct, but, but that was the thing about. I was performing.

[Will Sachs]

It was all of them. It was all of them. Did you want to be a thespian or did you want to be like when. If you're going and studying drama and deciding what your dreams are, are they written or are they performed?

[Lewis Black]

I wanted to write. That's really what I wanted to do.

[Will Sachs]

And why did you stop doing it in the traditional way of writing plays? Not that you have stopped, but somewhere along the path you decided to go stand up.

[Lewis Black]

I just, I was working my way up the ladder of theater. And theater, I started to notice more and more, was like an abusive orphanage where you would go in and you should be treated awfully. And it was like, you know, I mean, you'd send a play in, and then you'd send the play, and then they'd say, oh, we didn't. You. You wouldn't hear for a year.

[Will Sachs]

You poured your life into the fulfillment of writing in lonely spaces. You give it to the world, and then there's applause.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, it takes them a year. And I used to say it about it. You could put. You'd be better off as a playwright. I'm talking to you playwrights out there now. That if you took the play, put it in a bottle and threw the bottle into a large body of water, that someone would pick that bottle up faster and pull the play out and read it. It would all occur quicker than it ever did in any theater that I've seen.

[Will Sachs]

So it would cross an ocean. It would have to cross an ocean first, because. So you weren't getting any. You weren't getting the fulfillment that would come with just laughter. Telling a joke to an audience, getting the immediate feedback of laughter. It's the opposite of that.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. I mean, it was the. You know, you waited and waited, and then you had to work with people, and. Which was great. I mean, all of it was really what I wanted to do, and really kept thinking I was gonna do it. And I was doing it until I was 40. And that was the turning point. I'd gotten to AAA ball, which is like a, you know, a repertory theater that's in the community that's really well known. So this one was in Houston, and there's the Alley Theater, and Been there forever. And I thought, you know, I've made it. You know, I finally made it. And that's the step I wanted. If I could get there and have my plays done at those types of theaters, great. And I was. Then I could maybe get some teaching work and all of this stuff. And so I. I go there to do this. And it was. It was. Everything they kind of told me was a lie. And it was just this horrible experience. And I went, I've kind of aspired. Now I'm finally getting to where I wanted to get. And it was awful. And I was supposed to stay on and work with people that worked with them on the play. And they said. I said, well, you know, you're gonna put me up. And I was broken. Okay. So now, like, we had to actually take money, my friend. It was A musical that we wrote and. And I did, in order for us to get another actor that we. Because we wanted a number of actors from New York and they did not hire the actor, the amount of actors from New York that we requested. So I had to take money out of my salary. He did too, in order to pay another actor.

[Will Sachs]

And when you say broke, you're talking about from 20 to 40. You're broke.

[Lewis Black]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I. I was making enough money that I was, you know, fine day to day, everything fine, you know, moving along, but, you know, no health insurance, no nothing. Ridiculous. It was like, crazy. But I ran a space in New York City from 30 to about 30 to 38, 40. That was a theater that, you know, a ton of people worked at, everybody worked at. It was a small downstairs theater which was like, had a bar in it. That was kind of the way we supported it had. It was in the restaurant. The guy is a very close friend of mine. And it's become it over time. We went. We went downstairs and just started doing shows. And then people like Aaron Sorkin showed up because there was nowhere to get anything done when we were there. This was the, the. The 80s into the. Into the 90s. It was nowhere. It was. And so people, very talented people. Edie Falco, Aaron Sorkin, Alan Ball, who wrote True Blood, he wrote that. A number of other successful pieces. We had all these people coming in and doing really great work.

[Will Sachs]

But are you thinking at this point of giving it up? Because it's not really a career, or you're making enough, so this is good enough? Because this is AAA and I'm not gonna be a major league player, but maybe I still keep fighting from here and become a playwright, become more of a playwright, a more successful playwright. But then you didn't. Or then you chose another path. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong on this, I don't wanna be presumptuous, but in what I've read about you and what the producers of this podcast are trying to do, I lost my brother recently and they've asked me to explore grief. And you tie your career change to the loss of a brother. Correct. Like you made that jump somewhere spiritually around whatever you learned about mortality and grief there, or. He opened a spiritual door for you.

[Lewis Black]

He literally, as far as I'm concerned, this is Will Sound, unless you've kind of gone through it. I'm minorly psychotic, but there were doors that were not opening and I had agents, I had all of the things kind of in Place that would say, you know, even as a playwright or as an actor, I'd done. I'd started to do, you know, little bits and pieces in performance and my brother passed away and I was just kind of got my foot into comedy. I mean, I was starting to. I left theater and was starting to become. Was committing myself to being a comedian. And my brother passed away then and I, I found that like, I couldn't all of a sudden, like, I got a one man show in New York City that came along. These doors just started literally like, bam, bam, bam, bam. In between whatever my attitude was. And, And I, And I really believe it was him. The. He was. He was pushing people around going, come on, let him do it.

[Will Sachs]

After life. You're saying, you're saying that he was doing this for you?

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

How close were you two?

[Lewis Black]

We were really close. You know, he was. And he had been really supportive of my career. Huge. I mean, I couldn't have survived without him.

[Will Sachs]

I would think that most people would think you too cynical to be that spiritual about afterlife and your brother opening doors from the beyond for you.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, it changed the way I looked at things that in part. And I wrote a book, Me of Little Faith, in which I kind of went through all of the experiences that I'd had in terms of religion. So I've always kind of. In spirituality, I've always kind of had that kind of thing that's super interesting.

[Will Sachs]

To me because I will tell you, and this part is hard and it sounds like lunacy to speak it out loud, but there are times that I just feel something from my brother pushing me in a more joyful direction because it's what he wants for me.

[Lewis Black]

That's the deal. I believe. I mean, I think because the cynic.

[Will Sachs]

In me doesn't want to accept it. The cynic in me does not want to accept that I know so little about the unknown that I can believe in something so syrupy.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, well, it seems syrupy, but it's also like, it's so obvious if it happens.

[Will Sachs]

It can't be unfelt when I feel it, it can't be unf. Because it melts all the cynicism at me. It'll make. It will make my eyes water to believe it. I want to believe it and just have a lot of trouble with the trust of believing it.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, well, I. Well, because there's nothing, you know, we don't. There's no kind of. It's. It's like the. We have a. I believe that the sense of humor is a muscle. Okay. It's a muscle that we don't. We don't work on the way we work on all our other muscles. And it's. We don't. No one really teaches humor in school in the same way, in terms of whatever that, you know, there's religion. You read the prayers, you read this, you read that. There's no. There's no. No one really opening that door for you. There's no one kind of going, you know, this might happen. You know, you kind of hear about it, and some in 60 or 70% of what comes out from people around is like, what, the dog spoke to you? No. And it sounded like no. And that's.

[Will Sachs]

And so your mother visited you in the form of a cardinal or a bird of some sort. Yeah. The silliness of it.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And. But that's what we're generally exposed to. And then when it. Actually, because I. I felt. I mean, I. This is. I'm. I don't talk about this much. The. When my brother had passed away, I went. I was at home, I just saw him left, went home. He had passed away. I went back to. On the subway to. To just to be. I wanted to be there. And the doctor had said, no, I'm. It's an hour he's passed or so an hour. And the. They. They had said to try to resuscitate him. And so I'm sitting there trying to resuscitate my brother and knowing it's. This is, you know, I'll do it.

[Will Sachs]

But same, same. I did this a couple of times. Did you? Yes. No. It's horrific. And out of body. Yeah, and out of body.

[Lewis Black]

And. And then the thought that stopped me was I went, if I wake him up, if I bring him back, he's going to be so pissed. And that's really what I mean. And. And I felt him in the room. And that followed. It's that. That has. Now, this is almost 30 years ago he passed, so it's about 30. And I've kind of lost that sense with him, that feeling of him being there, in part, I think, because he kind of went, okay, we did it. I'm done.

[Will Sachs]

You can go be happy now. Or to the degree that you can be happy around all of our human dysfunctions.

[Lewis Black]

Exactly.

[Will Sachs]

And did you feel laughter in the room with him? Like, did you feel that while you're resuscitating him, he's going to be mad at me for getting the credit of resuscitating him? That's funny. That's One final joke from him at the end.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, there was that. And then there was also the sense of, like a blind. Like a blanket. Like he was. He kind of. Kind of enveloped me in that. The sense that you talked about that I could feel him beside me and that. And that it gave me a sense of. And I had not had that sense before of. I mean, I've thought about the fact and that, you know, is there someplace that we go and it.

[Will Sachs]

And that this is your proof more than anything else. More than anything else, the proof is the feeling that you would find fundamental. And. No, I felt my brother's presence here from a different place. And furthermore, he changed my life path.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

And people who hear that and say he's crazy. What is he talking about? Like, how do you dissuade them of that? Because you've lived it.

[Lewis Black]

Fuck them. That's my feeling. I'm not going to argue it. I wouldn't argue it with you. I mean, I think if you feel it, you feel it. I mean, you and I are two people that no one would expect would feel this.

[Will Sachs]

I would stun my. My audience, I think, with the feeling. And I would say with conviction, too. Like, there's just. There have been some things that have happened that are so gentle. But I was extraordinarily close to him, as. It sounds like you were extraordinarily close. So why did you lose after. Why do you lose. You say you lose the connection. Because now you. Why wouldn't he still be enjoying it with you if you're still enjoying the success and the fruits of your career at 76, when no comedian gets to do that?

[Lewis Black]

I don't know. I think in part, I mean, where I can trace it to is my mother passing away. And this is what I thought immediately is now that she's there, she's chasing him around.

[Will Sachs]

Well, you lost your parents. They were both in their hundreds, right? Like your father at 101 and your mother at 104. And when I read the things that you say about them, I can't believe how normal and loving your environment was. I. I expect comedians to come from something different than that.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, no, I. That was really a completely. It's not. You know, were you this. Were you that. I was. And especially in terms of the playwriting, it was interesting. My mother had. My mother was. If you're not going to be. Look, I know you're not going to be a doctor, here's the next best thing. This. And this is before I'm going to grad school in, in terms of theater. And my mother says, you're not going to do, you're not going to be a doctor. So the best thing, the next best thing is, you know, you should run, get into health insurance. That's where the big money is going to come. And I. What? I'm not going to do that. Oh yeah, no, that. Do that. That'll be a really. And so that's where she was coming from. My father.

[Will Sachs]

Safer.

[Lewis Black]

Oh yeah, much safer. Because she, you know, she couldn't believe that I a. The fact that I got into a major drama school. You know, I went to the Yale School of Drama. So that had a big, you know, that's a big hoo ha. And so that didn't have any effect. You know, she still didn't believe it. My father was like, all in. Great. You want to do this, do it. Don't worry about her. It's, you know, basically it's your life.

[Will Sachs]

Mine was the reverse. My father's an engineer from Cuba, an exile. Wants me. Yeah, he wants me to go into engineering. And I'm coming and saying I want to write. And he. So he's come and gotten freedom. He's going and sending me to a private school that he can't afford. And I want to write. It's like, what are you doing? And my mom's like, you got to let him chase the stuff that he dreams about.

[Lewis Black]

That's funny. And my father was an engineer, a mechanical engineer.

[Will Sachs]

Well, let me read to the audience here what your relationship was with them. So Sam Black, you say? A great father and an extraordinary man. I was very lucky to have him in my life for so long. He was everything a man should be. Loving, considerate, humble, kind, giving, a mentor. A man of fierce integrity. An artist with a vision. His smile was like sunshine and it has sadly gone out. I am blessed. He was my father. He knew the path we should follow. The world is less of a place without him. And none of this is bullshit.

[Lewis Black]

It's true.

[Will Sachs]

What was he doing that would make him a man of fierce integrity?

[Lewis Black]

This is a remarkable story. My father was. Was a mechanical engineer. He worked for the. He worked for the government. The federal government. He didn't go in. When World War II came, he had just graduated from college. Instead of being drafted or conscripted, they took him into the. They. They wanted him to work for the department of the army designing or the Department of the Navy. And he was going to go to the Department of Navy and design weapons, undersea weapons and but mainly sea mines. So my. And then he did that and the war ended. And he. He wanted to get into design, you know, other, you know, like, you know, washing machines, anything that, you know, that we were producing. And he would kind of go to these places. And at that point there was. As you. You. Your family may have experienced here, you know, there was. There was an anti. SEM. Anti Semitism. So he would go in for the interview. And because he doesn't. The name is not. Sam Black is not a. You know, you don't go, you know, it's not like Steinowitz. So there was no tip off. And he would go in, do an interview. The interview be great. And he wouldn't get the job. And he just kind of went, you know, it was the early 50s, so it was. And it was. It was. It was a tough road to hoe then. And. But so he stayed with the government. He was. And he felt. He felt comfortable about sea mines because they were a weapon that you can. That defend you. It's not an offensive weapon. And he worked on defensive weaponry and.

[Will Sachs]

Then protect instead of attacking.

[Lewis Black]

Exactly. So, you know, so even in the.

[Will Sachs]

War, he's finding the morality.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And so he. He comes out, he's, you know, and we're involved in all sorts of things, and we would, you know, the, you know, the. Whatever. The. Whatever wars were up and. But we, you know, it was about mining harbors for people to protect themselves. So he and my mother have a huge argument about whether the Vietnam War is. Is legitimate. Is it this really a legitimate war? Are we. You know, they keep referring to the Geneva Accords. And so my father sits down and it was. The Gulf of Tonkin resolution was based on the Geneva Accords that were signed and whatever. And. And he. He says, I'm gonna. I'm gonna find out if this is legitimate. And so he reads this little. Nobody read the. Nobody read the Geneva Accords that I knew of anywhere. Nobody. We talked about it in school, but nobody. And I'm in. Now I'm in college. And he's. I mean, he reads it and he closes it. And he said, there's no legitimate reason in here that we should. This is immoral war. This is nonsense. This is bullshit. And he. Then we mine Haiphong Harbor. So we take our sea mines and use them as an offensive weapon. And I remember. I can't remember if it was. I was there when they. When, you know, at what point. But we were sitting around and he said, I'm going to be leaving My job, I can't do this just for moral reasons. For moral reasons.

[Will Sachs]

The shirt you're wearing is one of his designs. Correct. And he became an art.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

And so did. Was it a thing where he's going from something that's rigid, he's disillusioned, and then he goes into the arts and that births the openings that would be there for you later in life to pursue the arts as well.

[Lewis Black]

Well, it really gave me the sense of, you know, commit to the things that you care about. I mean, it was. No, I mean, all of this stuff, I'm going to leave. I'm going to go to Canada. I'm going to do this. And it was like, are you in my own house with somebody who said, no, we're not doing this, I'm not doing it, I don't have to do it. And he goes and becomes. He works as a apprentice to a guy who does stained glass. So he does stained glass for like three or four years. And these, he. And then he would make these things for my friends. I'm going, you know, you spend in like four months building like the Victorian Mirror. I said, and you're charging him 100 bucks. What the fuck's the matter with you? So I'm giving him the advice, I'll sell them. And. And he did that. And at the same time he started to go to a. To the junior college where you could go for as, you know, as a senior, you'd go there and he took free, free classes and he took art classes for 20 years. And the great part of the story there was is that he. They did an exhibition about three or four years after he'd been painting there. And they did an exhibition of the students and put them up in some sort of a museum that they had at the school. And somebody broke in and took two paintings. My father's paintings.

[Will Sachs]

Stolen.

[Lewis Black]

They stole my father's paintings. I said, does that make you feel better? He goes, no. He said, finally, a criminal with taste.

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[Will Sachs]

You say of your mother, Jeanette? Yes. She died as she lived. It was on her own terms, always. She was one of a kind. There will never be anyone like her. Fierce about her belief that the world could be a better place, that all children are our children. She was a brilliant teacher. Wanted to be more than a teacher. She was hard on my friends because she didn't want the world beating us up. It didn't. She was a ferocious angel. When I perform, you can hear her from time to time. Sarcasm was her sword. We were all lucky that she mothered us. I won't miss her. She's always here. I can't thank you enough for giving her your attention. It made her very happy. It took the sting out of her not living her dream through you. She was living.

[Lewis Black]

No, she was. It was in part. Yet through me, you know, I mean, I got her out there. I would quote her, I would, you know, gave her her due.

[Will Sachs]

She was the one screaming at the television when you were young and arguing with the newscast or arguing with the state of the world.

[Lewis Black]

The state of the world. The newscast, the news itself. Whatever was, you know, we sat there with, you know, it's that stupid joke. You know, I thought that Walter Cronkite was a part of the family. I mean, it was night after night.

[Will Sachs]

Because you're just yelling about the state of America. It's what you're doing now, is it not? And it keeps getting worse somehow, it seems. It keeps giving you fodder. It keeps giving the family fodder. It's worse now somehow than it was 70 years ago.

[Lewis Black]

Well, because I said, people go, you know, people will heckle me from time to time. I go, you're acting like I have any effect on anything, you idiots. I said, the bottom line is I broke into this business and was doing stand up for the past 40 years, and guess what? Nothing. Not only has nothing changed, it's gotten worse. It's gotten all of this input that I've had that you think I've had this extraordinary effect and change things in my direction. No, no, it's just gotten worse.

[Will Sachs]

Can you tell me about how it is that she influenced you and how they shaped love for you, relationships for you? Because the world that you have chosen to work in is not a friendly one to relationships. It's not conducive to recreating whatever love it is that you had in your life.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, no, I. I kind of couldn't. My. My mother. My mother's effect on me was sarcasm. I mean, I really picked up, you know, and a sense of humor. She had a great sense of humor at times, though. Her sense of humor is so dark. She went across so many lights. But my father had a real good sense of the soft and the gentle. So he knew. I learned from her, you know, to the. You know, how to use. How to use the. Your words as a knife. And from my father, I learned that you don't stab someone with a knife. And that's really what. Because my father's the one who said in his effect on me was. He said he was reading catch 22. I couldn't have been more than 14. And he was laughing, and you don't really normally see your father laugh. And I said, what is it? He goes, this book, it's really. It's very funny. I said, should I read it? He said, yeah, it'll tell you everything you need to know about working in the real world. And it was huge. It had a huge effect on me. All of a sudden I kind of. I went, oh, this is why high school is like.

[Will Sachs]

Well, you manage, though, somehow. Usually angry comedy isn't something that doesn't have a knife that will slice somebody in the face. Like, you managed to walk the line pretty well between anger and not being cruel.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, I tried. And also, it's because there's one thing about being angry which I will at times flip out on stage and then have to tell the audience. I think I've gone too far. But 95% of the time, I'm acting it. It's the only way you can do it. You have to act it. You have to have this sense that you're in part kidding, that you mean it, but you're kidding, you know, and because I used to. It took Me a long time to learn to yell on stage. I just thought, this is. You can't yell at people. And I would be on stage, especially in the small club in New York City that we worked, you know, where I was working, I would turn around when I was going to yell something, I'd turn to my back to the audience and yell at the wall.

[Will Sachs]

Well, but you're not acting right? I mean, you're just turning up your 8 to a 10. That's the only thing that's. The anger's real. You're just turning up the character to make him the lovable comedian. Let's get back, though, to what I was asking you, that I veered away from. What did love look like in the household to you? And as someone who doesn't have kids and has devoted himself to this lifestyle, where does love inform how difficult it is to have relationships with the kind of career that you have had?

[Lewis Black]

Well, it was, you know, for. For them there was a real bond. I mean, those two really had that kind of real love thing. I mean, they were very much, very much in love. I mean, it was, you know, and not, you know, not syrupy, not just, you know, like, you know, my father comes home, says he's going to leave his job, and my mother doesn't panic, whatever you want to do. She. I think, I mean, as I grew older, I began to realize that she had been kind of. She would have preferred. I asked her, She's 60. We were having. I was 60. We were having lunch in Vegas. And I said, I never asked the question which you was. Which you wanted kids. And my mother goes, pointing my father, he did. She said, because if it was up to me, I wouldn't have had children. And I was like, well, I'm. I'm glad you waited till I was 60. I'm glad you didn't tell me that. But I was.

[Will Sachs]

Well, she could have had her own life and done big things outside of just raising you because of wherever America was in the 50s that made him the earner and put her in her place.

[Lewis Black]

Exactly. And she never got over that, I don't think. I mean, I think that was her frustration.

[Will Sachs]

She gives up her entire life for the kids and does it very well, it sounds like.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And gave it up for the. More so in some ways for the kids in the neighborhood. Because I've just. As we've grown older, friends of mine have said, you know, your mother saved my life. Your mother did things for me that were hugely important. Your mother, in a sense, Was a surrogate mother. I mean, there were three or four good friends of mine who never. I knew that they really appreciated my mom. I didn't know her effect on them. She didn't have that with us. I mean, I think that in part, it was kind of like, okay, I'll show you. I don't know where it came from, but I'm. It. It made me happy that, you know, she. I knew she had that instinct, didn't she?

[Will Sachs]

Oh, it didn't translate as necessarily warmth or affection toward you guys. Well, it would make sense if she didn't want you.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, I know.

[Will Sachs]

If she's, like, dying of resentment because when she sees in your faces, you get all your dreams, she doesn't get any of hers.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

I don't know what she imagined being. What it. What was she denied.

[Lewis Black]

I mean, I think she wanted to be something in the doctor realm. I mean, or, you know, something within.

[Will Sachs]

That and could have done it sounds like. And probably would have done it if not for the interference of you guys.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And was enraged that she had a. She had what would have been. By the end of it, she graduated. She went, got into College at 15, you know, and so by the time she was 21, she had started to amass master's credits, which she then at some point announced to us that she was going through something where she was going, you know, son of a bitch, I had enough credits. This should have been. If. If I had these credits now, it would be a doctorate.

[Will Sachs]

So that's why she's yelling at the television, right?

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, that's part.

[Will Sachs]

But you don't know it as a child because it's concealed from you, but it doesn't show itself necessarily in warmth.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. The world being, you know, the world was unfair.

[Will Sachs]

And so how does this affect or illuminate your relationships going forward as someone?

[Lewis Black]

I first. First thing was I thought because. And I've heard of other people where I thought being in that household, that. And your mother's yelling not only at this, but at you about stuff and that. And was, you know, the level. The decibel level in the house was high. My father was very quiet. She's like, yelling away. And I'm. And so in one of the first relationships I had, I'm yelling, and I still. Even now, I'll be yelling at somebody, and they go, God, you're yelling. Me? I'm going, no, I'm not yelling. You don't even know what yelling is. This is what. And I didn't real. Because I Thought I said, you know what I always thought was because I was yelled at all the time, that yelling was love. That's so interesting that you trust somebody enough that you can yell at them and they're going to.

[Will Sachs]

That's love and communication. Because that's what you had patterned for you in your home. Yes, but not just that. You're not merely yelling. Also, your character as a yeller is getting rewarded and getting identity in every corner of the place that you're measuring success. All your dreams are coming true because you're. As your last tour. Final tour, allegedly. I don't believe it. Goodbye, yeller. Brick Road like this became your identity and your career and a path to happiness as chosen through your late brother.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And a path to happiness for me because it was something that gave me great satisfaction. And over time I began to realize that because I couldn't. And it just. I was traveling so much and finally had a chance to really do, you know, you know, had a creative place where I could now I could write a book and now I could act in something and people were coming to me to do certain things and all of that. So all of a sudden, this career that just exploded and that I could really enjoy it and realized that I would be hard pressed to share that with someone and especially hard pressed to share it with a child that it would be about because I felt it was about me.

[Will Sachs]

Oh, it was feeding so many of your vanities and feeling so much like warm love that you didn't even need anything else.

[Lewis Black]

It didn't feel like warm love. But I didn't realize until the last. Until I was kind of in the last. One of the last specials I did where I'm kind of standing in front of the audience and I kind of went, you know, I. You've been my primary relationship. I come on stage. It's more than just the, the, the, the laughter and all of that. I mean, people talk about that and I mean. And when it's rolling, it is really quite something and really is an endorphin high.

[Will Sachs]

Seinfeld says you don't feel your feet right. You're, you're, you're hovering above fight or flight so much and you're killing it. That that is the most joyous creative space.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

Most fulfilling. Just your buoyant. The laughter. It's the best that a comedian can feel. It's almost the best a human can feel according to your definitions of feeling things.

[Lewis Black]

And then at times, because I don't. I'm writing on stage. There have been times that I'm kind of doing. I'm kind of figuring out something in my head and talking to them, and then they respond and. And that gets me to another level. And then they respond again. And then it's like this really weird. Kind of like, I don't know where I begin and they. Where I end and they begin or where they end and I begin.

[Will Sachs]

The best feeling you've known.

[Lewis Black]

It was Will Sachs.

[Will Sachs]

Okay. All right. But I. Thank you. But I thought it was in the realm. It was in the realm of that. I would think that. That if I gave you the choice of the next 30 years, you live as long as your parents, and what you get for the next 30 years is great sex the rest of the way or that laughter the rest of the way for the next 30 years. I think you're choosing the latter instead of the former.

[Lewis Black]

I'm gonna have to cut a deal.

[Will Sachs]

Because the way that you guys talk about that is the way that athletes talk about being in the zone. But you were married for 10 months in 1974. Right. The reason some of this is so interesting to me is because I got great fulfillment from reaching what I thought were all my professional dreams and desires. But because I was doing it alone, it was a little bit lonely. I wanted to be sharing it in a way that had some depth and some connection. And not until falling in love in my late 40s did I realize that something. There was something else available to me other than the just feeding forever, the selfish narcissism of. Isn't it great that everybody, you know, whatever, applauds me or laughs at me? Because that. And. And then I get it. To make a career this way, 250 nights on a road feels like a dream for somebody who's a performer, who's a thespian.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

Making a living performing and making people laugh. It seems like joy.

[Lewis Black]

And I was making up for time. Because I'll tell you, if we. If I hadn't left and because of general circumstances, what was happening in the club and also that I was kind of moving into doing standup, that I was as happy in that club making literally what would be $500 a week. And as I've. As I've ever been with the success that I've had, it's. It was just.

[Will Sachs]

Because it really is about the doing it and. And the feeling good of the instantaneous laughter, the money and all the other stuff, the fame, the specials. That stuff is. Is. Is nice. It's great to make a living but it's not the reason you do it.

[Lewis Black]

No, but the, but the reason I did it was I had, down in that basement, we had a remarkable community. So somebody you'd, you'd work with. Somebody like, let's say, let's. For example, like an Alan Paul who, who brought us. He shows up with this whole group of, of kind of a sketch comedy group is where he starts. And so you're watching his writing, but you're also. I get 12 other actors coming in with them and, and then they show up with stuff and you start to watch all these people kind of expressing themselves. There was a real joy of being able to be the guy with two of my close friends, be the guy who says, you know, here's the space, use it. And then sit at the back and go, that's really good.

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[Will Sachs]

So which is the long term relationship for you? If you can only pick one? Is it with the audience or is it with the art?

[Lewis Black]

Wow, wow, wow. That's really. That's like, I need to think about that for a week. That's a really good question. And I hate to say that because people say that all the fucking time now. Well, that's a good question.

[Will Sachs]

I'm really glad you asked. It's a stall tactic. But you are thinking about it and you've devoted your life to this thing, that relationship that you have had that doesn't make it lonely, that makes it shared is both with the audience and the art. But you're saying you'll do it in a basement with the 12 people who are your friends, who are sort of your audience, but that's not really what you're talking about there. And so I'm asking you. I've made career choices so that I'm working with and around the people whose company I enjoy to make the things. But I'd have a hard time answering that question as well as someone who doesn't have kids and just recently fell in love and by falling in love, because I want to talk to you about anger Gave me real access, lubricants that I needed to feel because I'd always repressed my anger. And so I've had anger over the last seven years in a way that has been surprising to me because there's been sort of a flume release on my emotions since I've arrived at my 50s and given myself over to somebody with all of those vulnerabilities.

[Lewis Black]

So it wasn't just the fact that she irritated you and you snapped?

[Will Sachs]

No, it's never that. But I have just done some real learning around some of the things that you're talking about. I'm interested in your anger because I just recently sort of got access to it. I'm just now learning to treat anger as information, as data, as stuff that is informative to me that I don't have to react to emotionally. If I can just observe that I'm doing it when I'm doing it.

[Lewis Black]

That's tough initially.

[Will Sachs]

That's not the way rage works generally. No, no. But it's. But you can learn. The consciousness of that has been a real learning tool. I'm still not good at it. But to see in retrospect where it is. My anger has gotten me because I haven't treated it as information. And then I just spill over emotionally and then behave in a way I shouldn't.

[Lewis Black]

Wow. Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

But you've seen in your. But you've had a relationship with anger since you were a child. My parents always pushed that down. I never saw any of that. I never saw what passed for love in my house. Never had ang. And it was concealed from us. My parents had to show a unified front. So I didn't have. I've told this story before. I was 30 something years old in the back of a car and I saw my face in the rearview mirror the first time I saw my parents argue and I just was reduced to like a four year old.

[Lewis Black]

Wow.

[Will Sachs]

Yeah. It was just funny. It's funny to see my head shrink and become a child in the backseat because I didn't have any. I didn't. It sounds like you had at least an honest. An honest appraisal of feelings in your household.

[Lewis Black]

Well, there was, you know, I mean, it was a spectrum between my father, who. My father was like Buddha. I mean, we, you know, some of my friends said it's like he's. He must be watching a dirty movie all day.

[Will Sachs]

But not because he's been beaten down by an angry woman, right?

[Lewis Black]

No, no, He. He came to the table with it. And I think that kept her Calm and kept her kind of focused.

[Will Sachs]

Good teammates. All you saw was actually good teammates.

[Lewis Black]

Yes. You know, and they really. And she was. And, you know, in the boot, she was coming to my school teaching. She was a substitute teacher. So now she's wandering around and people are coming up and going, you won't believe what your mother said in the class today. So she's like getting rave reviews as a comic. The stage stuff that was coming out of her.

[Will Sachs]

Well, some of the stuff she could have been if not for the time and the place.

[Lewis Black]

Correct. Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

And so do you feel them at all? Do you feel your parents in the same sort of way that you felt your brother in the opening of doors? Or is that different?

[Lewis Black]

No, different. I feel them more as I don't really feel. I never felt them. They were there for so long. It was almost really another land, you know, as I is in my act, I now say, you know, if it was. It's the equivalent of, you know, if I get a sense of what it's like to have a parent live that long, and then. And how come maybe I don't feel it. As I said, I shouldn't have been having an argument with my mother when I was 70 years old. Okay. Because, I mean, I would say time. Can we drop the act? Okay. You know, I'm already.

[Will Sachs]

She's a hundred years old. She's 100 years old and still treating you like a child.

[Lewis Black]

Why aren't you retiring? What is the matter with you? You keep working. It's even toward the. You know, as she was kind of drifting, you know, into the, like, at 102, she's screaming @ me about this. I'm going, what are you. I don't need to argue with you about this. And we had a. Literally had an argument about when I should take Social Security. I'm going, this is not sane.

[Will Sachs]

Right.

[Lewis Black]

There's nothing sane about me discussing when I take Social Security.

[Will Sachs]

What is the answer to her question, why aren't you retiring? Because you're alleging you are in special. Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road. I don't believe you. The final tour. That's fine. I don't believe you.

[Lewis Black]

No, I'm. I will. What I'm saying not. What I'm saying is I'm not touring anymore, which means I'm not doing getting on the bus and. And roaming from Village to Dell, as I like to call it. I'm not doing that anymore.

[Will Sachs]

You'll open when Kreischer's got a theater. That's easy work.

[Lewis Black]

Exactly.

[Will Sachs]

Okay, so you're retiring from having to carry the whole. The whole economy on your back, which can be hard for a comic.

[Lewis Black]

Well, partly that. And then there's other stuff. When you ask the part of the answer to that question about art, what. What attracts me? The. The art or my relationship to the audience? What part of what it is is that I feel like that relationship. I breached the conclusion of that relationship with my audience. I mean in terms of week after week after week that I've kind of. And so that I have. Have freed up time so that I can go back to my just the art. Just sitting in a room and writing another book or writing a play. Where touring is. Is that it used to be because I was kind of one of the people, one of the few people doing it back then. It was like George Carlin and that, you know, then they, they asked me, do you want to tour theaters? I went, yeah, this is like my whole life now. Everything is coming together. I could be at a theater theater. So I, you know, that was huge for me.

[Will Sachs]

And I don't care how I get to the theater. I'll get to the theater however I get to the theater. Do I need to emcee an open mic night?

[Lewis Black]

Right. It was really. So they, they gave me that opportunity to work in theaters and I thought that was really. That was really. Has always been a pleasure. And it's really, it's. But it's the mechanics of, of it. It's the going. You know, it used to be we would pick. We're going to go to these three cities. But now we're finding that, you know, a lot of this past tour was as it would be. You'd go where we would go a. Like that running up and down was not going to be bad. That's easy. But we find ourselves doing where you know, we're going. Start in Fort Lauderdale, go back up to.

[Will Sachs]

So you're just talking. The logistics of touring have become a giant pain in the ass.

[Lewis Black]

They are huge. It's much more problematic than it was. And then going into towns where I did it because part of the reason that I love doing it was, is I got to see America. I mean and oh, what a great.

[Will Sachs]

Way to travel and see America. Sure. Like funded by your art. Like that's the dream. Well, that's the dream.

[Lewis Black]

It was, it certainly was a dream. And it really. It was huge. And it was why the bus and why I kept going and I can go to Bismarck, I can go to Boise. Are you kidding me? I could go. I Went through Canada three times.

[Will Sachs]

Do you have like a pinch me gratitude moment or moments that are the landmarks of where it is? You'd be most emotional because you'd be like, how is this my life? Or here's my brother with me providing something I'm sharing with him because I've arrived well beyond where my dreams resided.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, did have. I had those. I still have it. You know, I still, you know, I've had it constantly. You know, when I, you know, Inside Out 2 became that I did became a blockbuster. I mean, it's like, are you. I mean, come on. That is not. That was not even in the cards. Okay. And that was like a complete and utter. You. This is crazy.

[Will Sachs]

You were the voice of anger. Like, to get it, you got to voice anger as a theater guy. Guy.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And have kids. Love my character, which really made me happy.

[Will Sachs]

You made anger palatable. Not beyond palatable. Lovable. You made. Well, that's. I mean, that's career legacy stuff.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, that's really like.

[Will Sachs]

That's. That's. I mean, I'm not going to say it's who you are, but it's who your character has been.

[Lewis Black]

No, yeah, it's true. It's making that it is. And it. And that comes, I hope, from something I think is important with any comic that I like is humility. That there has to be a certain humility when you're up there. I mean, you can. You're acting like you're in charge of everything, but you're also. You can't be. You know, you've got to be humble about it.

[Will Sachs]

Well, can you separate? Can you help me see the separation between the real you and the costume that you have put on for 40 years? Because you are in character as someone who's always wanted to be an actor.

[Lewis Black]

Wow. Run that by the real you.

[Will Sachs]

No, that's okay. The real you versus I understand that on stage it's the real you, but like I was saying, it's the 8 turned up to 10. You've this character that you have of rage, bile, not cruel, funny, lovable anger. I don't know if that's what's in your kitchen at night eating dinner. Like I. You might get angry about thing X, but I don't know that the characters on stage who has had all the success. You are. Is the you at home.

[Lewis Black]

It's. I. As I said, you. I can't. If I was like that all the time, I'd be. I'd have been dead by the time I was 40. I mean, I'm not like that all the time. I'm. But it will start. I will pick up a paper. My comedy begins with anger. I'm funniest when I'm angry. That was the tip. That was when I figured it out.

[Will Sachs]

I went, oh, that's your muse.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. Turning around and yelling at the wall didn't help that. That people. I am funniest because I'm stumbling around looking for words. I'm like, I am, as kids would say, you know, you. You're really, you know, you're like my father, only you're funny. I've got that ability to express that kind of.

[Will Sachs]

But all of that is refined. What I'm saying is your costume is very refined. As a thespian, Jezelnick, whoever, I don't know who you admire these days for wearing a costume and being a character. Well, because you're not that angry, but because you've gotten so much of your identity, profit, success, rewards from being on stage, as if you are that kind of angry. I could see where your identity might get, like, merged between the two human beings because one of them is bringing you all the rewards. It's the one on stage.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, but I don't. That's really. I've literally put on my sport coat and a nice shirt, and now I wear jeans and walk out on the stage. And that 50ft from the time I, you know, make that cross, I become. And what's weird is. And this is the. What happens is, is once it's over, when they're applauding me, all of that drops. And it's like very. There's that strange moment of like, the fuck is. What's the big deal? You know, I didn't. I don't deserve this. He deserved it. But he's. He left now. He said good night. This is. The show ended and now I've got to do the applause thing and. But I really does. I just. It goes away.

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[Will Sachs]

You'Ve been doing it so long. The reason I asked the question the way that I did. You've been doing it for so long and done so many reps of it. You've got more than the 10,000 hours of expertise that I can imagine that the walk from the dressing room to going on stage is you putting on some sort of armor that you've been putting on forever so that you can go do the thing that brings the intimacy between you and the audience that you might not be brave enough to do as the real you. You're the real. You might have too many insecurities to connect with your audience there.

[Lewis Black]

That's why it takes the. The hardest thing is you get. You. There's the person who you sit with. I mean, they, they, you know, the guys you work with, they're guys who are extremely funny that you work with. Would they. What would they, you know, people go, you know, you should really do comedy. And there's, and they, they, they're not going to be. There's, there's a big difference between the guy sitting here and. I've said it in a number of times when I teach, you know, a bit of like about stand up is that 10ft to getting on the stage, you're funny here, but can you do it 10ft and you're on stage?

[Will Sachs]

The expectation of funny is totally different. I will tell you that. Throughout my career, one of the best producers I had, when he put me and my father on television, he implored the producers of that show, he was telling them, do not place the expectation of funny on them. Let them be funny as human beings. Let them overachieve, because there's not the expectation of funny. The reason I admire comedy so much is because the expectation of funny makes it that only 300 to 500 of you can make a career at it every year with. Because the expectation of funny is a terrible burden.

[Lewis Black]

It's brute, brutal, you know, and that's what makes it difficult for many people to, to do that 10 foot walk because it's just by the time they get there going, what, what, what the.

[Will Sachs]

They paid for you to make them laugh? They expect to laugh. That's, that's what makes you, you can fear it, if not in the costume that you've perfected over the years that can, that can tame it.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. But finding that, that costume, using that word, finding that Persona is, is the roughest part I think of. There's some comics who are really, you know, have that instinctually. You know, they just have it from the get go and they know why they're, you know, they may not understand yet why they're funny, but they are, it's part of their, their toolkit and they've got it already. Already, that's like 2% of the comics I've ever met. I did a lot of open my, you know, these, you know, or been in lineups with comics and kind of gone, wow, this is. This person is really going to be good. If and when. Watching Jim Gaffigan grow as a comic was. Was great because it was like, I, you know, all of a sudden, you know, he'd been rolling along, he was doing well, and then he found that little voice, wasted comments on what he's doing. And I went. And I, And I, I went, wow, he really. That's a huge breakthrough because it's finding those things. It's finding out how to go out out there with. With maintaining the armor and not showing the armor and being and trusting. And a lot of the times, what is the most personal to you is the thing that makes you the funniest. And so to say, oh, I'm going to show this, I'm going to show my anger. God, they're going to love. This is crazy, because it's. It's. What if they don't like it, then they don't like me.

[Will Sachs]

Well, this is what I wanted to ask you about. How you carve likability, how, how you curate it, how formulaic you are about knowing, as many standup comics do, what needs to be tapped into so that you can maintain the right side of. Of likable, I guess, like how after 40 years of doing this and sculpting this, how did you arrive at your comfort with voice around anger? Like, where was the breakthrough there? You get to it at 40 years old, and then how much stumbling around do you do before you realize, okay, this is who my character needs to be. This is what my voice is?

[Lewis Black]

Well, it was the first time was a comic that I named, named Dan Ballard, worked out of Michigan and was. It came into the club I ran and we would do. When I first started doing stand up more regularly was on Saturday night. We'd have a free show. I'd host it. Hosting allowed that kind of freedom you have. What hosting allows is that there's no expectation you're going to be really funny. So I grew from that into being funny. And then he came up one night and he was just visiting. I hadn't seen him in a while, and he said, and he'd been performing and he goes, when you go back on stage, I want you to yell everything. Just yell it. He said, you're angry and you have reasons to be angry, and you're on stage. You should be Yelling about it. He said, I'm yelling all the time on stage. Nothing that I say. Everything I say is goofy. I shouldn't be up there yelling. You need to go up there and yell. Just go do it.

[Will Sachs]

How long had you been doing it at this point?

[Lewis Black]

I'd been doing it off and on for. Since I was 21. But not. Not committed. Do it. Forget about it.

[Will Sachs]

But for 20 years. Okay, but. And so now, how long are you in. You have now decided to dedicate. Some door is opened, opened by your brother, and you're now looking for. What does the costume look. Look like?

[Lewis Black]

Well, well, what happens there when. To finish the. What happens when I go on stage and Yale is. I went, oh, wow, this is it that obvious? It was. I was like, what up? And it was. And it was like, how did it take this long? But I see it in everybody else that I've watched and really whose work I've. I've thought is terrific. You know, you watch them grow and you. I kind of went, wow, that's the duel were. And that. That Then everything was about modulating it. Everything was about, how do I use this? How do I use what I've got here? How do I use this thing that is funny and that I know makes me funny. How do I do it? And then apparently for a while, I had no idea. I just. I. I would do. I'd come on stage full bore, yelling and then get loud. I mean, I was crazy. My friend Kathleen Madigan, who's one of my favorite comics on Earth, and we've been close for a long time, she and I met on the road and she said it was, you know, after years, she said, you know, when I first was watching you on stage, I thought. All I thought was, he can't possibly make it. They don't. I don't know how he's doing it. They're not laughing for seven minutes. They are scared to death of you. And she said, but I was afraid to tell you that because then after seven minutes, you finally broke them. And then they started laughing. And I didn't notice it at all. At all. I didn't know that. People come up and go, you know, how'd you learn that? You know, I was. I didn't even know that I did the fingers.

[Will Sachs]

So this is a bit out of body for you here. The entire experience. Like you. It's fascinating to hear you describe going to this place, visiting it, occupying it, living in it, and then leaving it.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

What is that?

[Lewis Black]

It's called in Sane Cultures. It's called schizophrenia.

[Will Sachs]

But this is just acting. It's one of the things that draws you to acting is the fact that you're performing as a robot who features. You're all controlling.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And then. And also that you're doing. You're going up there. I mean, 60% of what I do on any given night I've done before I did. I'm working on whatever my special is going to be. So it's like 50 or 60% is, you know, coming.

[Will Sachs]

It's also stuff that's all stuff, you know, works. Right. 50 to. Largely from audience to audience. No matter where you are. That 50 or 60% is going to give you 50 or 60% of the confidence you need to try and push it to 100%.

[Lewis Black]

And that's exactly it. And then. And that 60%, what I found was. Is that it was. I was really able to. How do I put this? The. That I have to. I have to. The one thing where your acting chops come in you. And you see it with Seinfeld and. But every comic does this. Every great actor that it's really, literally I'm doing, especially actors on Broadway. I mean, it's. I'm doing this for the first time. You're the first people hearing this. It's got to be sound. It can't sound rote. It can't. It can't sound like you've said this a thousand times. It has to sound completely fresh.

[Will Sachs]

That. Well, that's Seinfeld. One of Seinfeld's many gifts is that he is able to deliver it as if it is fresh and also conceal. What is the very real disdain he has for just people in general.

[Lewis Black]

You.

[Will Sachs]

That his anger is more substantive than yours. Nobody and nobody knows it. That it's. That it's hidden behind an act that is just meant to conceal. That he openly loathes you. And. And he's conquered comedy in a way that doesn't have a whole lot of precedent either.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

So who are the craftsmen and crafts women that you most admired? Like just. I know you grew up with Prior and Carlin, and those are the guys who tend to formulate just about everyone's shaping about your. About your age.

[Lewis Black]

But Bruce. Bruce was really big, willing to get.

[Will Sachs]

Arrested for his work.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And also the level of his work was. I mean, you could see how it really affected George in his work because George went down. I think George was there the one of the nights that Lenny was busted and went with him to the. To the police station. And Lenny kept going what the fuck's the matter with you? You know, you don't need to be here. But Lenny really did that. There's a thing called if anybody really, if you, if you like comedy, there's a thing called the Carnegie hall album which was. Is. Is a double album that he, he.

[Will Sachs]

Did a bible of sorts, a manuscript of scripture of sorts.

[Lewis Black]

It is for me. And I kind of kept pushing it away because I knew if I really. Until I trusted whatever was. And this is way early. I'm like in my 20s, my early 20s. And I was doing standup just because it was. I was fascinated by it and I didn't really want. Wanted. I wasn't going to do it for a living at all. So I always kind of did it to, to kind of see. You know, to get some writing out there and just to see how it worked. I was just looking at the mechanics of it and I thought if I listen to Lenny Bruce I'm just going to imitate him. So I waited to the point where I felt I'm on, I'm figuring out. But I mean rudimentary. And I listened to the Carnegie hall thing and that's just my name. Mind boggling. I've read the books that he wrote and, and listened to the other albums. All the other albums are just clips of his work this thing.

[Will Sachs]

So you feel like you're looking at a sculpture by a foremost artist and it's a masterpiece. And even now you would look at it as such. In your 70s you used to look at it.

[Lewis Black]

Oh yeah. No, it's spectacular. You know that he, that he comes in there that he shot and from the beginning to the end and he had a. And something that I've always been a true attracted to. I don't write my act so I basically work it out on stage. I am right vent it.

[Will Sachs]

You vent it a little bit. You summon it.

[Lewis Black]

You, you.

[Will Sachs]

You're. You're forever crafting it on stage. Tapping into the anger so that it fuels you.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And then just to tell it or. And to tell a story sometimes it's not angry, it's just. You won't believe what just happened to me. Da da da da. My, my act. All of my specials I've always kind of done in the hopes that I was telling a story through it. Even if somebody didn't even under. If somebody didn't understand the through line, they, they. They essentially got it gut wise. And so I've always been. But it's that writing on stage and having an audience that. And that's. I think in part that. That my relationship with the audience was so important because. Because they're the ones who told me what was funny. They're the ones who kind of were guidance.

[Will Sachs]

You ended up going through a back door to get to all the things you wanted from the plays. Like, you just didn't. You went a different route. You went through the back of the theater to get to all of the things that whatever it is you were dreaming about, it was more constipated the way that you were doing it before your brother ended up allowing for laughter. And you would phrase it that way, right, that you're allowing that your dead brother, your late brother, excuse me, opened the doors for you to be happier so that you could have a more fulfilling existence with your work.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah. And that he allowed people to. He gave me the opportunity to be seen, which I wasn't being seen.

[Will Sachs]

How would this have all changed over the last four years if not for the pandemic? What was the punctuation of your career going to look like?

[Lewis Black]

Well, first off, ladies and gentlemen, and this is an important lesson that I must. The five year plan is bullshit. Okay? Anybody says to you, what's your five year plan? You take a shit on their desk.

[Will Sachs]

Okay, very good. That seems extreme, but okay.

[Lewis Black]

Wasn't it?

[Will Sachs]

I mean, yes, but that's okay.

[Lewis Black]

Can we not say that?

[Will Sachs]

No. Yes. No, of course you can say that. I was, I was playing your straight man. Of course I'm all for shit on the desk. Yes.

[Lewis Black]

I would have imagined.

[Will Sachs]

We're going to do. That's how we're going to end this right here. You and me are going to take a big on the desk and we'll be sessions.

[Lewis Black]

But it's nuts. So that's where I was. I had a five year plan before the pandemic hit. I was going to do two more specials. I was going to continue to tour. And about four to five years from the time the pandemic hit, I would be done and that would be it. And I would do a wrap up and I wanted to do the last. I had. I thought I had two more specials in me and. And the pandemic blew me out of the water. The pandemic was brutal for me because.

[Will Sachs]

Of how alone the alone was.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah, the alone was. It was not only that, it was. I was 12 weeks alone. And I learned that there's a reason that we. We put people in solitary confinement. Frightening. Because it drove me crazy. Because your brain will only play with you. For like brain gets really excited for like a day because this is going to be great. We're gonna have so much fun. All the things we can do. This would be the best thing ever happened. Two days later, my brain is completely fed up and it's, you know, it's gone through everything 60 times and now it comes after you. You know, you blew this, you up that you completely screwed this up. Why didn't you have children? Why didn't you? You know, I've never had this, I've had this discussion with myself already and I'm kind of going, well, I don't need to discuss this again.

[Will Sachs]

Oh my God, that sounds like the comedy around deathbed remorse. If you can't be around the laughter and you're totally alone, isolated, all the choices you make, how soon before you just eat yourself up with ravaging doubt.

[Lewis Black]

I know. And it's, it was the worst, the worst period I've ever experienced. I'd never experienced anxiety, never experienced depression, and now it was just fueling all the time I was and in and where I really learned. This was an amazing moment in terms of the last five years of comedy that I've done. I did a thing on stage where I talked about how I flipped out during the pandemic. And I started after the, after the, you know, after we, after, after we had a kind of an all clear signal, I went out and I started talking to the audience. So I thought as a placeholder, what I'll do is talk about how I reacted to the pandemic. I don't care what your choices were. These are my choices. Which made some of the audience angry because you're not supposed to. It's like, this is me, you schmucks, not you. I'm not telling you to do this. So out there on stage and I'm kind of going through it and I'm realizing they're really laughing at this stuff. I mean, they obviously, everybody went through this in one way or another. And then I get to this point that I thought this and I did the first night I did it was about how I destroyed, I went through. Then you had this relationship, destroyed that and you fuck this up. And I do a litany of how I screwed up all the relationships in my life and what a piece of shit I am. And I just bombard myself for a minute. I, I do just take direct action, direct anger at myself and I finish and I think in my brain I'm going, well, we're going to have to cut this and the audience is screaming with laughter. And I thought, wow, wow. I really thought it was just me. I mean, everybody gets this.

[Will Sachs]

And it was just a withering examination of all of the choices you have made in your life, including to not have children. Children. And to self loathingly judge those just because you had the time in the pandemic to remove all the distractions and be alone with your lonely truth.

[Lewis Black]

Yeah.

[Will Sachs]

I mean that. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds awful and not funny, but you made it funny. That doesn't sound, it doesn't sound terribly funny to examine your life with remorse and anger and then be really mean to yourself on stage.

[Lewis Black]

And they went nuts. And I thought, good God. I. And I realized then that we're all going crazy and we have not. And this is something I continue to tell the audience. We haven't come out of it yet.

[Will Sachs]

Louisblack.com let's shit on the desk right now. Together. The last tour. Goodbye Yeller. Brick Road. The final tour. I don't believe it. Lewisblack.com is where you get your tickets. Thank you sir. Appreciate the time, appreciate the comedy, appreciate the honesty.

[Lewis Black]

Oh, thanks. It was really a pleasure.

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