B (3:54)

A business owner as well, many businesses.

A (3:57)

And yeah, and you know, when you think about the businesses I'm involved in, one of our companies is called buildops.com. they just recently raised at a billion valuation. We have a little investors there. Easy Care Link nursing staffing platform that we invested in, a buttercloth, you know, a couple other companies. But the thing is this, in 1999, when we came into the league, we didn't have what they have now. You know, our whole thing was like, ball till you fall, boom, boom, boom, get the bling. All that stuff. That was our life. Unless you was like a Michael Jordan or a Shaq, you had your head on your shoulders. Not, you know, the majority of us athletes back then did not. We wasn't thinking about generational wealth, you know, infrastructure, planning. We wasn't thinking like that back then. We had to catch up. So it was so many different things that we've been through as athletes. Where being a business owner today, I never thought in a million years that I would be doing what I'm doing now.

B (4:53)

Well, when you say, though, that people don't really know you, it's at least in part because you're not the same person now that you were 20 years ago. You may have some of the same core things, but we all saw your growth we saw you're winning the championship and the first thing you're doing is bringing attention to mental health by saying, I want to thank specifically my therapist for all the help that I've gotten in this realm. Like you over the years, we've seen the tough guy become something that was willing publicly to be more vulnerable, to be softer, and to talk about things that usually athletes don't talk about or hadn't before you.

A (5:31)

Yeah, we all have a perception, right? So as a tough guy, things that made me tough, I wish I didn't have to go through. Like playing basketball in Far Rockaway as a 12 year old in Hamill's projects and at the free throw line, my friend getting hit over the head with old E40 ounce bottle because we were playing hard in someone else's neighborhood or to having to travel to a game, you know, somewhere and having to put the ratchets in your, in your bag just to make sure that nothing goes down. Like, the stuff that made me tough, that people loved is not what I would want for myself or my son or my. Or my children. You know, I wish I did not have to be tough. You know, I wish I could have just been vulnerable the whole time, but I had to because of these different circumstances in the city. You know, when you come from the biggest federal housing project in America, yeah, you got some protection because you're a baller, but at the same time, you become friends with different people. And when things happen to your friends, you got to make a decision now, you in or you out. How are you going to navigate that? So the things that made me tough and fearless is things I wish I did not have to go through.

B (6:37)

Were you indeed fearless? Because I've the stories of you losing teeth, someone elbows you and you don't care. The stories of, you know, somebody breaking a table leg at a game that you're at and killing.

A (6:51)

I wasn't at that game. But my friend, yeah, he died about. Yeah, the stories are crazy.

B (6:57)

And they're. And they're all, they're. They're all pretty terrible. And you're sitting here looking back on them and saying, yeah, they made me tough, but I wish I could have been vulnerable the whole time.

A (7:06)

Yeah, I wish, right? I wish I didn't have to go through that. I wish, you know, before I went to college, my brother didn't do 10 years in jail for drug trafficking. Before I go to St. John's I wish Lloyd Newton didn't have to die on the basketball court because we were winning the Game and table leg goes through his heart. I wish, I wish Kenny Ito didn't get shot in his groin when he was playing with Lloyd Daniels and Rod Strickland at Oak Hill Academy and could have went pro, right? But those things that made me tough, like I said, is not who I wanted to. Not the Persona I wanted to show out there. The Persona is really, you know, outside of basketball. With basketball, I'm in survival mode, right when I was playing, I'm in survival mode. I don't know nothing else. So now you're gonna get the, you're gonna get whoever that is. You're gonna get my best emotionally. And people loved it. But for a game that I loved, I was also detrimental. I also self sabotage. So it was like things that I couldn't really control, I could control, but I didn't know how to control them, you know, if that made sense. So when I retired, I was able to decompress. I was able to like take some, you know, reflect, decompress and then get back to things that I always wanted to do.

B (8:17)

Let's talk about the entirety of the path going back to the very beginning. How were things before 13 years old? Because some things happened at 13 that obviously were very hard. But before you became 13 years old, like, do you remember a childhood that was carefree that it have. How did you get to fearless?

A (8:39)

You know, like, I think so. When you take it back to my dad, my dad's from Philly, so I always tell people, yeah, I grew up in Queensbridge, but I'm a Philly guy. My dad from Philly. My dad also recorded professionally. Two in one. He's a two in one boxer and came to New York through a U haul. I don't want to tell that story. But he came into the whole story, got to New York and you know, met my mom, stopped boxing. I would, you know, then he had me, he had to provide for me. You know, I think as early as six, I remember being in the trenches. I've been. I was suspended in preschool, kindergarten, first grade, all the way to 12th grade. Even in LaSalle Academy, I got suspended my first year. And so for me, it was always some type of trigger. And these triggers were normal to us. Natural. If you're in our neighborhood, you got to get into a scuffle, you got to fight it out. You might get bullied one time, you got to, maybe you, maybe you on the other side, you being bullied, you get tired of it, you know. So I can't remember a year where that Toughness wasn't growing, you know, in the 80s. That's when the crack epidemic hit. And I didn't real. I didn't know. That's what I didn't know. That was the era we were going through until you see the documentaries on it. And we was in the heart of the city with the biggest everything moving through our neighborhood. So from that perspective, we have foreign. We had outsiders coming into our neighborhood trying to set up shop. And as they were setting up shop, then our neighborhood got tired of it. Then we had to push them out by way of activity, and we had to get back control over our neighborhood, you know, not us. I was young. The older folks had to get back control over our neighborhood, you know, so it's like that type of stuff. So I can't really remember a time where we wasn't on our P's and Q's.

B (10:29)

So suspended every year for what? Just fights.

A (10:32)

Fights. Mostly fights. I remember one kid jumped in front of me on the lunch line and I punched him in his face. You know, I would say that's second grade. Like, how do you develop that type of lack low tolerance, you know, And. And I look at people that's hungry, you know, being hungry in one split second, you can make the wrong decision. You could get divorced. You could see a bad argument with your wife, oh, it's over, and you didn't eat breakfast. That's a real thing, hunger, right? And you don't have the. You don't have the five seconds or the five minutes to say, hold on, let me think about this.

B (11:09)

But. And you're surrounded by the kind of poverty that is actual hunger all the time.

A (11:13)

And it's like, it's not like Africa hunger or Honduras hunger. American hunger is a little bit different. We do have homelessness and hunger here in America for sure, but it's not as bad as third world countries, you know, but hunger is hunger to the human body. The human body don't know where you're at. It just knows you need to eat. You're stressed today. Oh, you're a little upset. You might want to breathe. This is all happening subconsciously. So that's why people be like, oh, man, I wish I would have never committed that crime. They get in front of the judge. Oh, man, I wish I would have never did that. I wonder how many of those people were actually didn't eat breakfast. You know, it's a silly inquiry, but I'm really interested in how many people before they committed something that got them in jail, didn't have breakfast, what would you guess?

B (11:56)

If you had to guess, how many times were you getting into fights? Like, if you had to put a number on fights until, you know, your teen years, what are we looking at?

A (12:06)

Well, you know, maybe like three a year, you know, maybe more sometimes. But some of it could just be talking, arguing back and forth.

B (12:18)

But not afraid of fights right from an early age. Not afraid of them, Your dad?

A (12:22)

Some of them I was afraid of. Some of them I was afraid of because maybe that guy's bigger. Maybe I'm tall, but I'm not as older as these people. You know, I recall a couple times being older, being tall, but being bullied, right? And I couldn't quite, like, get off because he's got a little older. So at some point in time you say, okay, like, never again. And when you say never again, that's to everyone, right? That's like, it don't matter where you're at, who you are, how much you're worth. I take that approach to everybody, right? And. And it's because, like, you just don't know where it's coming from, right? So now you're like, you know, if you bother me, I'm gonna go at you. If you bother me, I'm going at you. I'm not gonna let you. I'm not gonna let you bully me. That's just how I am. And sometimes that's just not the way to move forward in life. You can't move forward with, like, making logical decisions like, you know, I want to do business. I want to partner with you. I'm thinking, like, you got. I'm thinking you're against me day one. And that's not the way to move forward in life.

B (13:24)

Did you have a temper problem for sure?

A (13:27)

Absolutely. I think the temper problem was, yeah, I think it was more like not identifying when the threshold is like, max and capped out. Also not really not being logical or even some issues was not as serious as I made them out to be. And just not being able to identify those issues. Not being able. You know, everything is winning. Losing is not everything. You know, just because you lose a game doesn't mean it is the end of life, Right? And different things like that.

B (14:04)

What perspective would you have as a. As a child who's getting into fights, who's surrounded by perpetual turmoil?

A (14:10)

Right, right, right, right.

B (14:11)

You're normal. Is not normal for a child.

A (14:14)

It's not normal for a child, but. And then Fran Fischer said something a long time ago. He said, meta. His passion is his gift. And his curse, you know, because what got us all these wins and AAU and 15 years old and Minnesync and UDC in New York and, you know, it was that, that fire and people.

B (14:33)

Loved and great at defense.

A (14:34)

Great at defense. And now and can play a little offense and we're winning and it doesn't matter that this kid is out of control. You see the kid like for example, Rick Carlisle. Rick Carlisle. I respect Rick Carlisle a lot to this day because he always called you out. He never was like, he never let nothing slide. And it was annoying at times. Right? Like, oh, Rick, gotta say something again. Oh boy, just let it slide. But he would not. Some coaches would, you know, so you remember those things and you appreciate, you know, coaches that didn't let things slide.

B (15:08)

So I thought your life got bad at 13. I'm wrong about that.

A (15:11)

Oh, it was early.

B (15:13)

The reason I thought it was bad at 13 is because your parents separate and there's an electrical fire in your house.

A (15:18)

Yeah.

B (15:19)

And so instead of, what is it, 14 or 15 people living in a two or three bedroom house, now it's everyone.

A (15:25)

Yeah.

B (15:26)

So I, I thought that everyone in.

A (15:28)

A one bed in a one bedroom.

B (15:29)

Apartment, so that would tell me, take us back there.

A (15:32)

It was a time. So my mom and dad separated at 13. They was having problems before that. And I think, you know, they didn't have a reference point on good relationships. Also, as I talked to my therapist about that, so then it made me feel more empathy and sympathy for my parents because we didn't know. We just thought, oh, they separated, they don't love each other. Oh, and we were hurt. But as you find out about their life story, you're like, man, I feel kind of bad for my parents, you know, and now I understand my parents.

B (16:00)

And it was a great gift from.

A (16:01)

Therapy, you know what I'm saying?

B (16:03)

To find the forgiveness.

A (16:04)

Yes.

B (16:05)

The compassion.

A (16:06)

Yes.

B (16:07)

So that you don't blame them for everything.

A (16:09)

Naturally as human. Right. We're like, oh, my parents did this. But you don't know what your, your parents was once 15 years old too. Who know? Do you know what your parents were going through when they were 12 and 10? If they were starving, if they had to be, or were they homeless? Who knows? Nights when they were crying, did they have anybody a shoulder to lean on? We just don't know.

B (16:27)

Right.

A (16:27)

And they bring us into this world to make a difference, you know, and they sacrificed their body, women's women sacrificing their body. Their bodies change, you know, and we don't take that in consideration.

B (16:38)

So what is the chaos of this, this living arrangement? Is it really 15 people?

A (16:43)

Like I don't even. 17 in one bedroom. Yeah, it was fun actually. You don't realize you're going through it when you're there. It's like, oh, okay, we got to put beds. We can't put beds up because if we put the beds up in the room, there's no room. So we got to put mattresses in the living room. We're going to put a twin mattress in the kitchen. We're going to put one here and we're going to put. Every bed is on the floor. As kids in 1993, we're like, oh, wow, the lights is off. We were playing tag, little kid games. We had a blast. That was probably the best time we had. I remember that time and it was the most fun because we're all together, you know, versus like, you know, being in a three bedroom which is still crowded, but we didn't have that contact all the time.

B (17:28)

Were you in any way prepared in any way for professional basketball, for the transition into the life of professional basketball coming from the things you came from?

A (17:40)

I had opportunities to be prepared. Like I had Mr. Ernest Lorch, who has a not so positive story out there, but for me, he paid for me to go to high school and we were moving as professional athletes, as 13 years old, 14 years old, as professional athletes. So I was prepared in many different ways. He also introduced me to one of my, one of my agents who are friends now. I wasn't with him the whole time. And then I also had like, I also had finance people from Wall street. But when somebody from Wall street is telling you as a 17 year old kid, you know, I'm coming straight from Queensbridge right now. I'm going to work at Wall street because I had a job. And when somebody's telling you, oh, here's how you work stocks and hey, how you do this? Now my major was going to be architecture. I knew that, but I was only major in architecture to build community centers. It wasn't to be a businessman. It wasn't to understand ins and outs, you know, and all this stuff was only to build community centers. So yes, I had opportunities to be prepared, but my mind was always in the streets. You know, my mind didn't get out the streets until I was like 24, maybe 25.

B (18:51)

Well, you've told the stories of you would drive back all the time just to feel what the comforts of home you're driving, what kind of drives are you making from professional basketball back home to the projects? Because that feels like home.

A (19:12)

Well, the first thing I got to Chicago, I get drafted to Chicago. Now I'm around, like, police officers, and we associate police officers. We're like, hey, you don't come out right now, right? That type of stuff. So I was never comfortable around that many officers in my life. So now I'm like, hey, friends, I'm around police, so, you know, don't come around me. You know what I'm saying? That was one piece. And then. So I couldn't wait to get out, away from police. Secondly, you know, the first thing I did in Chicago was I went to Robert Tyler and Cabrini Green, you know, because that was the hood, 79th Halster. And so I would go hang out in those areas just to be around people from the streets. And they all love Mob Deep, and they all knew I was from Queensborough. So I was able to go into these different areas and just, like, vibes. When I was doing that a little too much in Chicago, I didn't even realize where I was at. Now that I know about Chicago, I'm like, whoa, what was I thinking?

B (20:22)

You're going as a member of the Chicago Bulls, you're going into the roughest parts of the south side.

A (20:29)

Yeah, definitely not to show off or do anything, but just to, like, be a part of the community that I know, which is the streets. But then I would drive back to. I would drive back on Fridays, go back to, you know, New York, Queensbridge. It'll take me, like, 14 hours to drive, sometimes 16 hours. Stay, you know, hang out, go back on the block and leave in 24 hours or 36 hours, sometimes leaving 18 hours, drive back to Chicago, you know, and go to, you know, move on.

B (21:00)

So what was the calling there? What. What was called. What is calling you when you say, yeah, from the streets? And what is it? Is it because your life had gotten to a place with fame, with money that felt less authentic or less comfortable? What's calling you back home or calling you to the south side for that matter?

A (21:20)

I mean, you know, have. It got this famous line. No matter how much loot I get, I'm staying in the projects. Like, you know, for me, I really took that to heart. You know, I was really that, like, I wasn't a gangster, by no means, but you don't have to be a gangster to be considered one of the realest in your neighborhood. It's things you do. So for me, you know, it was just never wanting to turn my back, you know, And I always told myself I'm never going to turn my back on the streets, on my. Now I think you got to be a little selfish in life because if you put yourself in position, how do you stay in position? You know, being that my mom, like my mom is so philanthropic. We'll have a pot of rice for the family. If one of my friends was hungry, twin or noid or somebody, their mom would do the same thing. We would have to share that rest. We were sharing our corn. We're sharing everything we gotta share. And that's how my mom was. That doesn't prepare you for like generational wealth planning, right? Because now you go to the NBA, you're doing the same thing. Oh, you need something, you need something. It's not that we would. Our posse, we taking care of people, you know, and some people got it. They see it differently. What we're doing is what my mom did, you know, we'll do it, we'll do it for anybody, Black, white, Latino, it don't even matter because that's how my mom raised us. If you got you help, but there's a way to structure that. W2S501C3 is ways to structure, you know, reaching out and helping, helping others, you know, so, so you know, it, it's a gift. It's like I said, it's a gift and a curse. There's a lot of positives that come with wanting to stay authentic, but they're also some things that doesn't really help in athletes. Generational wealth planning especially. Luckily for me, I was able to create and, and, and learn, absorb and create family office from scratch, my own hands. But not everybody has that opportunity.

C (23:24)

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D (24:37)

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B (25:54)

When you look at the first, let's say 15 years of your life, what are the things you say are the most responsible for shaping the person who is right here?

A (26:03)

I definitely got to accredit it to my mom and dad who put me in a psychology session. I was 13 years old and they put me into counseling. At 13, they said, you know, my mom was like, boy, you need help. And they that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I remember my first session, it was on a dime block. We call it the dying block in Queensbridge. But one building. It was all apartments, but a couple of the buildings had offices and different things. There was a counseling spot right across the street From NAS block. And in that setting, in that class or that session, you had people with autism, maybe cases of schizophrenia. We're all young though, Walter. I had a temper. Everybody had different issues. Maybe somebody had physical disability. And I remember the counselor, this white gentleman, I got a picture. I forgot his name, but I got his picture. My mom got his picture. Still to this day. And you know, we would have popcorn, we would cross Vernon and go to River Park. Long Island City is different now. You know, we would just play, you know, sit down and talk. He was just counseling us. That shaped me because now you can see I was one of the only athletes to be like, oh, I want to thank my psychiatrist. That felt normal to me. People was like, man, you're crazy. You just thanked your psychiatrist on tv. I'm like, yeah, my psychiatrist helped me out.

B (27:29)

I was thankful.

A (27:30)

Why would I not thank her? But she wasn't my psych. And the thing about that, so she was my psychologist. She called me the next day, corrected you, and she said, I'm not a psychiatrist. But the reason I didn't correct it, because, you know, if you say you're on psychiatry and you're taking medicine and sports, oh, he's crazy, he's on medication. But the reason I didn't say, oh, she's my psychologist, was because I thought that was even a bigger statement to make sure people have the courage. If you got to help yourself, do it. Not, no, don't back, don't back away. Oh, she's not my psychiatrist, she's my psychologist. I don't take medicine. I actually double down on it. But, you know, for people, it was not an md medical doctor.

B (28:12)

Why is the counselor reaching you, though? Is it someone who cares? Is it someone who's listening to your feelings?

A (28:18)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. You can't always talk to your parents. If your parents, like I got a one year old right now, 22 year gap, right? And I want to make more babies, right? So the way I raised my one year old is different how I raised my 28 year old, you know, because what we were taught. So if your parents, if they don't have a reference point and you see how babies are being raised, you know, some of these practices are not the best practices. You know, you got to listen. I didn't, I didn't know that children or toddlers, infants were as smart as they are. They just can't talk, but they're absorbing every bit of information, you know, so, you know, when you, when you think about it like that, you know, Even as a parent, even as a new parent. It's like, we gotta listen to these toddlers and how we raise them. That's. That's the. That's the output they're giving to the world, you know, as we let them roam free to make a change. And not even to make a change to add value to this world.

B (29:17)

But this was an adult who was listening to your feelings. And when your mom is saying to you, you've got problems, kid. It's not just the fighting, right?

A (29:27)

It was the temper. It was all. That's all I had. I was always ready to fight. Got too many. I did get into too many fights.

B (29:36)

Have you examined the roots of what was happening now as an adult to the child? Temper.

A (29:42)

It was seeing too many fight. If you see how someone reacts, it's like if I teach my child how to potty train my child. You know, we had an issue. I got a documentary out with a gentleman called like the Kid. Well, he was. He was introduced to the street life at 12, you know, so depending on what you're learning, that's who you're going to be, right? So if I see people react only with fighting or, oh, you want beef bong, right? Oh, wow. I was just playing basketball and this guy just got shot. And now what side are you going to be on if you're in that situation? If somebody pulls something out on you, are you going to run? If somebody attacks you, are you going to go reach for something? Because it's all you learn, right? And so that's the thing about when a toddler, a teenager is learning different habits. They're learning in real time and they're gonna implement it in real time. So for me, you know, the counselor was listening to me like, I want to be a math teacher. I wanted to be a math teacher. That was my goal. You know, I always wanted to be a junior high school math teacher. And as I was preparing for that, not even pro things was getting in the way and he was able to keep me straight, right? And then. So that's just having somebody to talk to about my own goals in this life. Not my parents. Mine own my own goals. So just having somebody to vent to was great.

B (31:14)

Do you remember what it is that you were feeling or the feeling that you got from fighting? Was there a satisfaction in it? Was there a release?

A (31:23)

No. Sad. Definitely no satisfaction. It was probably more like, I never started a fight. I never said, hey, let's fight. That was definitely not it. I probably say, hey, let's go play Some basketball. Let's go play some tag. Some manhunt. Manhunt is an aggressive game. Attack. But, you know, it was more like just protecting myself or being insecure. Like, maybe I don't want to fight. Maybe I don't want to get punched in my face. And I'm so afraid to feel that pain. I gotta fight. I gotta go at you. Now. I'm not. I don't want to get hit because I know you're going to hit me.

B (32:00)

But if you're not starting them, if you're getting into fights but you're not the one starting them, why is mom saying you've got a problem?

A (32:09)

Well, yeah, I wasn't starting. For example, kids skipped me on a lunch line and a big fight happened. PS122, a Greek school in Astoria, Queens. Ditmaras Boulevard. You know, like, how does that. You know, somebody skipping you on the lunch line, how does that merit a punch in the face? You know, it really doesn't. That's what you tell the teacher. Now, if the teacher's gonna listen to you or not. Get back in line. Okay, I'll get back in line. But I'm really upset that he skipped me, you know? Or you just handle it yourself, right? And sometimes when things get out of hand in your neighborhood, you only got a split second to react. You know, either you're gonna get punched in your face or you're not. So now everything is magnified. Oh, he touched me. Fight. Oh, he want to fight. Oh, let's do it after school. You're not thinking about. Oh, hold on. You know, I'd rather be a friend. Or we could talk about this.

B (33:09)

Did it serve you later on, though, to have this as a reputation, though? Someone who was not to be trifled?

A (33:15)

No, I don't really like it. I like the. I like the certain parts of fearlessness that I like, but certain parts I'm like, I don't even care about. Honestly, it's not important in my life right now. I'm trying to make a. I'm trying to add value. I'm not trying to make a change. I'm trying to add value to this incredible world we live in. With the exception of when things bad happens. But this world is great. The air is free. The beach is right here in Santa Monica. Trees is everywhere you can go. I mean, I want to add value. I want to add value so my mind is not even there anymore.

B (33:49)

You're a fun, positive person, correct? That's what you either are or aspiring to.

A (33:54)

Oh, 100. I think a part of me is, and that part was at its purest form when I was younger. And it was great to be able to tap back into that. You know, it's great to be able to tap back into that. And some people see me on the streets, man, you were the tough player. And I'm like, you know, I got to acknowledge it because they love it, the fans, they love how I play defense.

B (34:15)

It's such an interesting thing to hear you say that because I think it's a reputation most people would want, but the way that you had to earn.

A (34:22)

It, you're like, yeah, I wish I didn't have to earn it. I wish, you know, sometimes I wish I didn't experience certain things and just had a different perspective in life, because the things that made me hustle and, you know, don't get tired, you know, being able to play defense and offense like I played. I mean, I don't know, you got to imagine I was tired. Yeah, I was, you know, you know, lock somebody up. Plays coming to me on the other end. No, not even today. Athletes is not doing that. Name an athlete. That was the go to guy on defensive offense, probably a couple of them.

B (34:59)

But I'm thinking if I go to most athletes and say, hey, you were regarded as tough. That's almost universally embraced.

A (35:06)

Yeah, it is, universally.

B (35:07)

But you know what it took to get there. And you're like, I don't think anybody would have wanted.

A (35:11)

You know what? I like the Tim Duncan approach. Tim Duncan is tough. Some people don't even know how strong Tim Duncan is because he don't really show it. Tim Duncan is, you know, ox, rhino strong, but he's never gonna use it in a way where, oh, get out of here, young fella, or let's fight or he's not gonna bully you with it. He's gonna play basketball and dominate and go home quietly where people are not even talking about him as one of the top 10 players ever because he's so quiet. But if you played against Tim Duncan, you quickly find out he's a huge problem. And that is the way to use your mind and sports.

B (35:53)

Oh, so I see. So you would like it. You'd like the reputation better if perhaps you were viewed as whether it's the architecture guy building community centers or the math student, if people were actually appreciating what it is that went into you being that good defensively, which takes more than just toughness.

A (36:12)

I mean, that's actually, that's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it like that, but yes, yes to that. Absolutely. Because it wasn't just rah, rah, rah. It was definitely a lot of math when I was playing basketball.

B (36:24)

Well, you had to say. You had to be cerebral. You had to be.

A (36:27)

Yeah, definitely.

B (36:28)

Like, that's not just all will. That's not will, and that's not just all will and passion. Part of it. But I would imagine that you'd want some of the credit for the parts of your game that were studied and sophisticated as well.

A (36:41)

Yeah. Being able to learn a triangle in a month. We know how long it took people. Some people never learned a triangle. Fans was frustrated. So that part came from my math background. Just, you know, I've always used math and angles to perform. You know, I was 260. These guys is 220 I'm chasing. Even if my weight is going this way. 260. His weight is going that way at 215 when we shift, it's going to take me a split second to get back. Well, how was I able to stay in front of certain guys? That's all angles and strategy and different things like that. You know, being able to move my feet, cutting off angles. Some people were harder. Like a rich Hamilton. A little bit harder. You know, he's a lot of endurance, you know. But, yeah, it was definitely not just like all toughness.

B (37:30)

When did you feel like you got a. Or started to get a grip on the temper, on the anger, some control over it so that. So that you could be doing things that were more in line with who it is that you want to present to the public.

A (37:44)

Absolutely. And who you want to present to the public. I know, right. Some things you want to do in private, and some things you want to present to the public. Right. And it's so true. If I'm home, I'm a talk. I could talk street slang when I'm going back to Queensville. Hey, what up? If I'm in the public? Yeah, I could. Yeah. But I'd rather. We all have dreams as kids. The American dream, which is lost. We got to get the American dream back. We all have this American dream when we're kids, whether you're poor or rich, you know. And I think. What was the first part of the question?

B (38:16)

When did you get a harness on the anger?

A (38:18)

Oh, yeah.

B (38:18)

When? At what age or what time period were you looking at where you got a little more control over?

A (38:24)

I think 27. It happened in Sacramento. It happened in Sacramento. I just finished my mandated sessions. I got an issue with my ex wife, who's a really great friend and happy that she has three of my children. Couldn't have picked it with anybody better. And so I had mandated sessions. After those sessions in Sacramento, I was like, man, I feel really good because the sessions I had in Indiana, those sessions started in Chicago, but I wasn't really. I wasn't ready to let people know. I needed. I needed help. I'm like, no, I can handle it, Right? So Indiana, I was starting to transition. Then I left Indiana, went to Sacramento, went through the brawl. I was just depressed at the end of that, that period at 27. And the next year I went to Houston. So I carried over those sessions to Houston. And these sessions was. I picked these. Now I said I wanted to continue it. At that point in time, I knew I turned a corner. One thing I didn't want to do, because I knew I had this Persona of, you know, world peace, helping people, but one thing I didn't want to do was do that too fast. Imagine after the brawl, I come on in a suit. Hey, how's everybody doing today? I'm in the suit. I love you guys. When the brawl happened, something told me not to do that. Don't wear a suit, Meta. You're not going to be authentic. No one's going to believe you. I said, I'm going to let that happen, like gradually over time, every day. And it took me from 2004, you.

B (40:01)

Know, you didn't want to get out there immediately, as if you've been changed or contrite or just scrubbed clean by this brawl has humbled me. And now I'm going to be out here and be a totally different person to the public because I'm going to be in corporate public relations mode.

A (40:17)

I wanted to happen gradually. I wasn't ready. I wasn't interested in you changing your opinion on me right away. Even though I was probably hurt by some of these opinions coming at me from millions of fans and hundreds of media. You know, I have a unique experience from that perspective. But I also said, weather the storm, still be vulnerable, still let people inside your life, right? And then gradually, you can show who you are in the philanthropy, on a philanthropic side, you know, and then your. Your life is your life. So I accepted that my life as my life, but I also accepted that I'm doing something even bigger now.

B (40:55)

Do you think that media and fans are worse today?

A (41:02)

The media is better today. When we first got it, if I came out and said I needed help taking medicine, whatever, back in 1999, whatever media was more like, you're weak, this guy's weak, get him off your team. You know, and the fact is, back then in the locker room, a lot of things were suppressed. Things people didn't see. People were depressed. They didn't know, you know, how to manage money, how to grow, what to do. Should I get an entertainment? Should I start rapping? What should I do? Like, people had no. A lot of players, they didn't have an understanding. Now, luckily in the NBA, those problems can be mass because you can get a $100 million coaches contract, you can get a $20 million general manager. Like, you didn't set up a, you didn't, you know, create a startup that's just. You're in this business. So, you know, some people lucked out, but not everybody lucked out.

B (41:56)

When you talk about the time of depression after the brawl, that's because it feels like the world has fallen.

A (42:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the worst part. That was the worst time of my life ever.

B (42:06)

And how long did that last?

A (42:07)

That, that was. Oh, boy. My goodness. That was. That was a good four years, three years, you know, because I was, I was becoming great. Like, if you look at that season, we know who was in the league in 2004. You can just look them up and we know, you know, Larry Bird even said I was top 10. And you can look up my stats from when I got defense player of the year averaging 18 points. One of the go to guys, Reggie and Jermaine was the guys, but I was, I was emerging. The next year, I come back averaging 24. That's six points difference at that point in time. Maybe Kobe was averaging 27, 28, but nobody was, you know, nobody was just averaging that much. Man, I was a hell of a player. You know, nine games in, okay, great. Maybe my average drops to 22, maybe it goes to 25, you know what I'm saying? So at that point in time, when the brawl happened, I'm like, damn it. Because it's a game of inches. My whole life predicated on inches. Why do I run so much in the summertime? I need to be an inch better from a cardio perspective than my opponent so I can wear my opponent down, you know, to be in position to be third team all NBA, I could have easily been on the fourth team, which is no team, you see what I'm saying? So for me, that was a huge mistake on my part. And then also it was a huge black. It was a huge black eye to my career. Even if the Gentleman started it. Like I didn't have a wand. I said, okay, now throw bear on me. Cameras is positioned here. Now go throw the bear. I did not tell that gentleman to throw bear. That was his choice. And we're friends today, actually. His name, John Green.

B (43:51)

Oh, you, you're friends with him today? The guy?

A (43:53)

Yeah, since 2008. 2007.

B (43:57)

That's a nice turn to that story. I wouldn't have expected you are friends with the fan who threw a beer at you. Even though I've heard you say that if anyone throws a beer at you, that's pretty much the way that that one's gonna go.

A (44:07)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, to this day, nobody's gonna let. You can't set the tone. Hey, if somebody throws something at you. No, you can't just let that slide. People ask me that silly question all the time. What would you do today if somebody throw a bear in your face? Oh, you know what? I am gonna turn the cheek. No, I'm not. Don't throw nothing in anyone's face. It's wrong.

B (44:30)

But you're friends with him.

A (44:31)

I'm friends with him, yeah.

B (44:32)

Okay. So that took a positive turn at the end.

A (44:34)

Took a great turn because I was able, we was able to understand each other. Me and him are the only ones that understand that moment. I understood what he was going through. He was going through AA meetings, you know, it was a $50 bet. So the reason he got, the reason that happened, because his friend who everybody said I hit the wrong guy. I think his name was Ryan something. Well, Ryan bet John that John, you cannot hit. Run our test. I bet you $50. Well, when I got hit, we saw Ryan go like this. And when Ryan raised his hand, I'm on the table looking that way. I said, oh, this dude just hit me. Because there was no game. This is a five minute break. Horrible job by the refs, by the way. It was supposed to be tech ejection. You throw another, you're ejected. Nobody got ejected. Still to this day, I deserve an ejection.

B (45:25)

You got a 68 game suspension. Or was it eight? It was 82.

A (45:29)

82, 82. Plus the playoffs. Plus the playoffs. A lot of money. Every deal, next day, every deal's gone, money stopped. But you know, the gentleman at bet $50, you know, he was, he beat $50. He was excited because, oh, wow, you really did it. Then when he saw me running at him, you'll see his face change, like, oh, so that whole thing was like. But when I was 27, I was so stressed still. I said, you know, I'm gonna reach out to this guy. Cause I just, you know, so I reached out to him and it really took a whole weight off my shoulders.

B (46:01)

Tell me more about this. How long after this. So you've been. You've been depressed for how long as you are swirling in. I've ruined my life. I've ruined reputation.

A (46:12)

Yeah.

B (46:13)

And you feel the need to reach out to him?

A (46:15)

Yes. Yeah. It was bothering me because. Because it was like. Because initially I'm ready to fight like one. I lost all my money and I didn't even get a solid. I ain't even connect. I got hit on top of that and. And then I got jumped on the court by two of other fans that tried to sue me for jumping me. This is unbelievable. Right. So the first year I get, I come back to Indiana. The Indiana was very supportive, by the way. Indiana is the greatest organization in the world. Sorry, I got a little Lakers. I love you. I've been through a different experience with Indiana. Right. But I was so worried that season. I was so scared to go back to Detroit. I'm not gonna lie. I was so scared to go back to Detroit, especially in the Indiana uniform. I was thinking about it. Then I started requesting trades and all I was. My mind wasn't there. I got traded. Go to Sacramento. I told Adelman, who's a great friend, spoke to him a couple months ago. I said, coach, I'm about to retire. Please don't play me. I said, I can't make a big deal out of this, because if I make a big deal, the media is going to start coming at me again. I said, so if you can just bring me off the bench and slowly move me to the end of the bench. He said, ron, no. He said, we gonna go as far as you take us. And that changed me right there. I was 273 pounds. I go from 248. I was 273. I had to work my way back into shape. Right. That kind of changed me right there. And then I started to love the game again. Playing well in Sacramento. Even though they fired Rick Adelman, after I take him to the playoffs, he was in last place to come.

B (47:57)

You were so happy that you offered to give your entire salary so that Bonzi Wells.

A (48:02)

Yeah, I did there for sure. I would have gave my. I would have gave my salary to Bonzi, you know, like, I didn't know he was. I didn't know that's what he wanted. You want just another 6 million? Just take mine. Don't leave us.

B (48:13)

But that's because you were that happy again playing basketball.

A (48:16)

Yeah.

B (48:16)

Yeah, Been a minute.

A (48:17)

Yeah, been a minute. I'm not, I don't. I know, I don't wear jewelry, you know what I mean? So, you know, I'm not, I don't have, you know, I'm not a. I'm not a high maintenance guy, you know, So I don't matter. Six, give it to Bonzi, please. I mean, we almost beat the spurs, took him to game six. And then so, you know when that happens, you know, when I was, when I was like 27, I guess maybe 28, something. Something happened at that time. I said, you know, let me reach out to John. So I went on Twitter, I put John. John Green's picture up. I said, anybody that could find me this guy, I'm gonna take you to lunch. I pulled that tweet down. Cause I'm like, hold on. People gonna think I'm trying to fight John. So when I pulled it down, no, no, sorry. The first time I put his name. If anybody could find me John Green, I'll take you to lunch. I pulled that tweet down.

B (49:02)

I thought you were threatening him.

A (49:04)

Yeah, threatener. So I said, if anybody can find me this guy, I'll take you to lunch. And this one fan hit me back. He said, I know who this is. This is John Green. I'm a find him for you. Sent me his number. I called the phone and said, oh, this is the Green residence. Our number has changed. You know, back in the days your number changed and they tell you the number, you know, they still tell you the number. So I got the number, I called that number and his wife picks up. I say, hey, Ms. Green, this is round our test. I want to speak to John. She says, get the F out of here, stop playing with my line. I said, no, I'm telling you, this is Ronda test. And I said, I would like to explain to you first why I would like to speak to your husband. I said, I think we can make a big change in this world because people was trying to also make that a race war, which I don't do that type stuff, right? So another reason, you know why I didn't say a lot because I seen people just trying to find a reason to make it a race war. This is a problem between two men. So I told her, I said, I think me and your husband can go on a tour, speak to kids and let people know when you have confrontation, you can work it out and I thought we could use that opportunity to really stop like gun violence and different things. Because me and him had the biggest problem. At least people think it's like, oh, it's the biggest fight in the history of America. If that's the case, oh, let's come together and make a big, big change.

B (50:30)

And that was your idea. No help with that. That was just something that was gnawing at you. You didn't like how it felt to you.

A (50:37)

Yeah.

B (50:37)

To have what they're an unclosed loop or unclosed loop.

A (50:42)

Like maybe, maybe like I don't like certain people, but it doesn't mean. Or maybe certain people don't like me, but it doesn't, doesn't mean like I don't like you. Right. Some people, you know, this guy's a bad guy and paint that picture for everyone. Right. For everyone to see. And, and it's not the fans that I have problems, individuals I have problems with. I don't have problems with groups of people, ethnicities. I have problems with individuals. You know what I mean? So, you know, from that, from, from that perspective, I thought that me and him, you know, could make a, make, make a big impact and, and different things like that.

B (51:20)

What would you say if I asked you any time in your life the most joy you had with basketball, the happiest you were with basketball, not necessarily just winning the championship.

A (51:31)

Right, right.

B (51:31)

Obviously that. But when you're talking about, you're talking about an eight seated Sacramento team and you're willing to give up your salary just because it feels so good to not be depressed anymore, to have to love basketball again.

A (51:45)

Well, that AC team, by the way, when I got to Sacramento in January, we were in 11th place. I said we was going to go to the playoffs. Media, not all media, but a lot of media laughed. No way we went to the playoffs. You know, we was the best team, we had the best record in the West. That's how good I was back then, you know. But what was the first part of your question?

B (52:08)

Happiest? Yeah, the happiest period of basketball. It could be any time. Can be St. John's can be when you were a kid, just what you recall as the most joyous time playing.

A (52:20)

I miss cyo like in New York City. Catholic youth, athletically, Catholic youth organization. Those years being 8 years old, 10 years old. The Catholic Youth organization is one of the best things that happened in New York City. It created so many pros. Malloy, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Chris Mullen, the list goes on and on. That's all CYO and those times were so much fun. St. Ann's in Brooklyn. I can go on and on.

B (52:51)

Business and money complicate things. With basketball.

A (52:54)

It does a little bit. It can. It depends who you are. It depends who you are. Right. You play basketball, you have this opportunity, you make a ton of money. Wow. You're lucky you're one of a millionaire. But not everybody thinks like that. Some people are still like into themselves authentically. They don't want to care about the money. They're not creating a plan. They don't care about your financial analysis. They don't care. They want to play basketball, have a little fun and move on. So it just depends, like, you know, your. Your makeup, your personality type, what's your relationship with regret?

B (53:28)

Do you do much of that?

A (53:32)

I don't do much regretting. I do focus on making an impact and I think some regret in there. There's regret in there. From the standpoint, I wish I would have did this differently, so I'm going to do this differently. So I think a little bit of regret is in there. But I kind of package it up in adding value to this world, adding value to people. You know, we didn't grow with the respect for women that they have now. It was just a thing back in the days, you know, you might make a song and degrade a woman.

B (54:11)

Yeah, Hip hop is notoriously misogynistic still. Right.

A (54:14)

You know, and so those type of things, like, I wish that I wasn't just loosely singing these lyrics. Even though I like the rappers and stuff, I like music. But it creates so much problems for women and how people view. So now we do more stuff in this. In this space. Yeah, I might have made mistakes, but it doesn't mean I can't make a difference.

B (54:36)

It sounds like a lot of times along the path, all you are is product of environment that you are. You are being impacted before you find your own voice, before you become the man that you want to be. That's, you know, giving positivity everywhere he can give it. You're just noticing whether it's the environment of where you grew up or noticing the. The environment in hip hop and you're just sort of following more than leading.

A (55:02)

Absolutely, man. Like, absolutely. I'm definitely, definitely a follower. I can say I'm a leader, but your actions show that you're a follower and your actions show that you've been influenced. Even if you're not a follower, you could have been influenced and you don't even know you're a follower, you know, and then so sometimes I'm like, oh, I identify it and I say, okay, I need to be more. I'm not trying to be a. I'm not always trying to be like the guy, you know, But I also not trying to follow everybody.

B (55:35)

It's so interesting having talked to Mike Tyson, as one example, where there are pieces of how he became who he became that because it's how people identify him. I won't say that there's shame involved, but it's not something that he wants near him or to talk about. And so it's just interesting to have someone like you who has something that would be in a masculine physical sport be something that most people would be proud of. You're probably tired of people coming to you and saying, tell me the story about this time that you ran into this guy or had confrontation, especially when you're trying to be sunshine.

A (56:13)

Right, right, right, right. I have. I have some standard responses to people now because some people love it. Oh, that. When you ran into the stage, that was the greatest day of my life. I'm like, dude, that was a horrible day for me. But, you know. Yeah.

B (56:29)

What are the standard responses? They want to talk to you about the fight. That one's probably annoying to you by now, right? Like, you. If I could press a button and erase you ever having a conversation about that ever again, would you press that button? Ever having that conversation with anybody again?

A (56:45)

Yeah, I would. Yeah.

B (56:48)

Just to be done with it, because it's. It was a snapshot in your life. It's a moment.

A (56:52)

It definitely was a moment.

B (56:53)

It's not who you are.

A (56:54)

It was drag. It was a big moment. But it's not like. Yeah, it's definitely even. Even. Even in that moment, I was meditating on the Scar's tale, you know, that whole. It was a big mess. I started. It was a big mess. And I realized I understand why Mr. Stern did what he did. It was a big mess. It was lawsuits all over that thing ready to happen. You know, I could have sued. They could have sued, you know, but for me, I just didn't grow up like that, suing people or thinking about suing. I just, you know, I kind of handle things differently. But it was a big mess, and it was only a moment. But it was such a big moment where it's still. People still get excited about it to today and that.

B (57:36)

So, yeah, that must get wearying, right? Like, you don't. You. You endure it. But when you say, what are the standard responses? Is it always about that. Because I was speaking more. Your career is framed by will.

A (57:47)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

B (57:48)

Fearlessness.

A (57:49)

That's true, too.

B (57:50)

It's not.

A (57:50)

That's also true.

B (57:51)

I mean, but that's. Most people would aspire to fearlessness and. And would think it a noble trait.

A (57:58)

Yeah. When I'm playing basketball, I'm digging deep. I'm in the fourth quarter, I got pain in my thighs. The lactic acid is building up. The synovial fluid is stagnant. Right. You know, I'm pushing through that. Right.

B (58:12)

You're at the limits of the human body.

A (58:14)

Yeah, Limits at the limits. Always at the limits. Because how I played. And then I got to go and score on the other end, you know, with no legs, you know, it's just like, I don't mind whatever comes with this chest explodes, you know, whatever's gonna happen to my body, it's not important. What's important is not giving up mentally. And to tap into that. People play it against me. They can say what they want. They can say, I was dirty. I was this. But I play with five fouls a lot. I was able to get five fouls and not foul out. Coach had total confidence in me. Four fouls.

B (58:52)

Do you know the number of times you fouled out in your career?

A (58:55)

I don't know. It wasn't a lot. I don't know. It wasn't a lot.

B (58:59)

Did you run into a lot of opponents or any opponents that you would say, I feel like this person is tougher than me?

A (59:05)

Yeah, there's definitely some players that I agree that probably was a little bit tougher. Like Kobe, you know, he was. Maybe if I would have got information that he received from his dad overseas. So, yeah, that could be it also. But, yeah, I think Kobe was definitely a guy that was.

B (59:25)

Derek Fisher and Rick Fox have talked about early on in their Lakers tenures, Kobe challenging them until they were willing to fight because he wanted to challenge them until they were willing to fight.

A (59:37)

He's a tough guy.

B (59:38)

Is that something that you ran into at all?

A (59:41)

Oh, yeah. Kobe was ready for that. Just naturally. His natural instinct is to be ready for anything. It's really impressive to see. So if you. So if you want to fight Kobe, he's not scared. You know, he expected it. You're probably not going to do nothing. He's not even worried. You know, it was really impressive to see. And he also will take that and use it and destroy you on the other end. And, yeah, maybe he didn't punch you in your face, but you feel kind of hurt. He gave you 50, right?

B (60:20)

Would have hurt less if he had just punched me in the face.

A (60:23)

Yeah, maybe he just punched me in the face.

B (60:26)

Is there a peer that you admired more than any other because of whatever your standards are in measuring excellence?

A (60:35)

I think Tim Duncan is somebody I admire. Cause he was tough. He never bullied anybody. He never backed down. You know, he won, and he did it with focus. And it was. I know it was hard. It had to be hard because to not get emotional. That's. That's incredible to me. To not. We've seen Tim Duncan emotionally one time. We probably all know the time he.

B (61:01)

Missed a bunny against in the finals.

A (61:03)

Okay, great. He probably jumped up. Maybe he took a hop.

B (61:06)

Oh, you're talking about the shot that he made after which. Oh, maybe.

A (61:10)

Yeah. You see what I'm saying? We know. We all know.

B (61:12)

Everyone's got the story of the one time they saw Tim Duncan.

A (61:16)

It's not many times.

B (61:17)

What an interesting thing for you to admire, though. So you don't. You don't like that your emotion was so out there that people can make their assessments about who you are. Whereas he was a stoic.

A (61:28)

It depends. So if you got the personality type where your emotion, happy or sad is going to throw off your balance because your body's not thinking about it like that. The body's saying, you're emotional. So if I'm really happy. Yes. Somebody pushes me on the court, I might punch him in the face. If I'm really sad, like, oh, my goodness, somebody punched me on the court. I can give that same reaction. You see, I'm saying now it's different type of body types or DNA types. Somebody might be like, yes, I just dunked on them. Yes. And then they push that guy, and that guy's like, yo, Ohtani. When he got hit in the back with the baseball, he was like, all right, I'm good. Told his bench, don't worry about it. Wait, that's incredible to me. I would have went for a bat.

B (62:20)

So you admire people who can control their emotions.

A (62:23)

Absolutely.

B (62:24)

Circumstances. You think that was a weakness of yours?

A (62:28)

That was a huge weakness. Absolutely. You know, and that's why I started to talk about therapy. And people will call me weak, but I was actually becoming stronger when I started to talk about therapy and actually did the sessions. Yeah, you might not got the rah rah. I had one incident after I changed my name to Metal World Peace, which is super unfortunate. I blame James Harden for it, actually. I like, damn, James, why you know.

B (62:53)

You wanted to have no incidents after you changed your name to Metta World Peace. No incidents.

A (62:57)

Not under Metta World Peace.

B (62:59)

And so James Harden. We're blaming James Harden because he soiled this.

A (63:04)

He's a friend. He's a good guy. I love James. I was like, good grief. I just changed my name to Meta. Get away from me. You know, so that. That's a perfect example. So I'm playing well against. Against okc. I have 16 in the first half that game. By the way, look at those highlights. Okay. I was cooking them. So I got about three dunks. I don't dunk typically. So now I'm like, oh, wow, I caught a dunk today. Oh, another dunk. I get my third dunk. I'm super excited. Yeah, Laker fans, let's go. Let's go. Then James takes a U turn, pushes me in my back, which is, like, really unexpected. I didn't think it was him. I thought it was like, Ibaka, because me and Ibaka, not that we don't like each other, we're just physical. So I thought it was him or Perkins or somebody. So anyway, when he pushed me, my reaction was like, get up off me. Right? Get up off me. That's what I'm saying about some. If you look at Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan might dunk on you, but, yes, he's not going to take it over the limit, you know, unless you come at him. Michael Jordan's a little bit. He's psycho. He's not going back down. You look at a guy like, even Shaq. Shaq could dunk on you, hang on the rim, but he's not going to get too out of control unless you come at him. Some people, that emotion can get them out of character, and you have no balance. And that's what I realized about myself.

B (64:24)

And you're saying that you realized the realization that you could at least partially harness your anger and temper was when you chose to go to therapy versus it being mandated.

A (64:38)

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I wish that I could, like, hit a big three or dunk and be like, yeah, let's go. But I couldn't. I couldn't raise my level that high. So if you watch in Sacramento, you'll watch my. Even when I hit the 3 against the Lakers, I had my therapist come from Houston that morning. So when I hit that three, there was no celebration. It was a calm, just kiss of the crowd. It was no, let's nothing. And that whole series, I had big games that series, that whole playoff run, but it Was all about succeeding. Keep your level here, keep your level here, keep your level here. Because even, even if I'm too happy, too excited, it's an uncontrollable level, if that makes sense.

B (65:18)

Well, for you, right?

A (65:19)

Yeah, for me.

B (65:20)

And it's one of the reasons, because. No, but I don't think anybody, everybody knows how good Tim Duncan was. But I don't think anybody would say Tim Duncan was tougher than you. You have the reputation of being somebody who is tougher than other tough people.

A (65:33)

Right.

B (65:34)

But it's not because of that fight.

A (65:35)

Right, right. You know, not because of the fight. It was other, it was other things that happened throughout my career. Not giving up, getting better in the summertime.

B (65:43)

You care, you care deeply about defense. You took great pride in doing little things that other people didn't care to do.

A (65:50)

Absolutely. Every, every, every deny, every box out, every closeout, I'm going to chop my feet. Every, every thing on defense, things you don't see, you know, that the coach told me to do, I was doing.

B (66:02)

Did you get to retire the way that you wanted to?

A (66:05)

No way.

B (66:07)

No way.

A (66:08)

Not a chance. I wanted to retire with showing the way I lock people up on defense. It was like so many things, you know, it's a way to get it, get it done. You play well, you build relationships, you know, and different things. So I didn't get a chance to do a lot of the corporate stuff that I wanted to do that was in my mind. I'm gonna be great. I'm gonna do it just like this. I'm gonna have a career, maybe like Mike or maybe like Tim Duncan. Right. And then it changes. So I had to get it back. But yeah, I didn't retire how I wanted to. I never really officially retired because of that reason. Maybe I just started saying I'm retired like two, three years ago. But no, I did not retire how I wanted to.

B (66:50)

When you said you were going through a four year period of depression, you don't feel like your career ever got back to where it was. You believe that was an incident that was so heavy on you that it derailed who it is you would become, Right?

A (67:05)

Yeah, it got, it got the best of me. I was still pretty good. Like I averaged 20 in Sacramento. In Houston, you can watch the Lakers series. That was really good. That was, that was five years later.

B (67:16)

Kobe was 6 for 24 in the game that you won. Game seven, like you won.

A (67:20)

And in Lakers.

B (67:21)

Yeah, I was really good at the Lakers. You, I mean, you. The reason they won the Championship is because you were better than Boston in that game seven. And at the end of that game.

A (67:30)

Yeah, I was really good that year. But when you're playing with Kobe, yeah, you can average 20, but I average seven points, you know, but I was not a seven point scorer. You know, I was. I can really play. But, you know, I think I forget the first part of your question.

B (67:47)

And so did I. I forgot the first part of my question as well, because I was talking about the four year period of when it is that you were kind of broken and that your career ended up getting. That you feel your career ends up getting derailed, right?

A (68:04)

Oh, yeah, but it wasn't. I mean, I was still playing well when I got to Sacramento, I was 270, you know, I was. I was planning to retire. I actually put in my papers. I was actually talking to the, to the league and they were like. Some people was trying to say, well, I said, no, send me my papers. I actually, I can't remember how I got the papers or I can't remember what email I got or something. But I was. I was at the step of just like signing and that's it. Moving on with my pursuing architecture, which is my first major. But I never got back in Houston. I'm not gonna say in Houston. Mentally and physically, I was at my best. I was really good. I was 29, you know, but where I was the year before that, you know, you're talking about somebody that was holding people to 75 and destroying them on the other end. They had no chance. Maybe a few people like LeBron was really good. LeBron was really good.

B (69:00)

First year, it didn't take him long.

A (69:05)

Not long at all.

B (69:08)

What would you say that you're proudest of?

A (69:11)

I'm most proud of my NBA Citizenship Award. That's how I'm most proud of my career. That was big. That's a big turnaround. And that took work, you know, and the writer. I got the award. David actually was happy I got the award. I think David was there that day, actually. I got the award. No, he wasn't there. I was hoping he was there, but he did give me my ring.

B (69:35)

That would have been amazing. David Stern being there for your citizenship award.

A (69:39)

That would have been great. The gentleman that gave it to me. This is bad. I know his name. I gotta see his picture. Oh, I wish I had my phone. You know him, the gentleman that presented me with the award. Oh, man, this is so bad.

B (69:53)

We'll find it here.

A (69:54)

Yeah, we'll find it. I'm so sorry.

B (69:56)

No, that's all right. We'll find it.

A (69:57)

But tell me about Asian Gentleman.

B (69:59)

Tell me about the Citizenship Award.

A (70:00)

It's great. I mean, it's everything that I wanted to do in my life. The first thing I said in rookie transition, I was a little too aggressive. Mr. Stern was there. Maybe Adam Silver was there, too, because he was a protege. My first thing was, I see me doing NBA Cares. This is just when NBA Cares launched. I was sitting with Baron Davis here, Elton Brand here, and I was like, what are we doing? I said, I know we do NBA Cares, but what are we doing for the hood? That was my first introduction to Mr. Stern in front of.

B (70:31)

But then you go, I mean, what a great moment of pride, and what an unexpected answer, that you would go through the whole journey, the whole ordeal, and that the thing you would be proudest of as a defensive player of the year, as a champion, would be that. No, I got the punctuation right on I rehab. That one moment wasn't going to be who defines me. And if you want to make it one moment, how about you make it about me getting this award?

A (70:57)

It's a big award. It's only. It's just like an mvp. Not many people got that award, you know, and people that do a lot of philanthropy. And I. And I respect the writers and the league, because through my worst time, I was still doing philanthropy, but people didn't see it. And even right now, I'm on the board of UCLA Psychiatric Award, which is the greatest thing I've ever done in my life. I was so honored when they asked me to be on the board of the psych ward. I'm like, what? Hold on. Is this like one of those things where you just like, just for the day. I mean, you know, it was a real thing in seven years or six years now. And it shows the commitment I have to mental health, improving the wellness of people in this country.

B (71:43)

How did that all happen? Tell me how that happened with the UCLA board of directors and what it means to you, because you have been an advocate. You've been out in front on this. Long before DeMar DeRozan and Kevin love were doing this, you were long before the corporations advocating on behalf of mental health, at least in part because you saw Dennis Rodman do it.

A (72:02)

Dennis inspired me. Yeah. So, yes, Dennis, when the interview he had with Oprah, that's where I fell in love with Dennis. It wasn't because all the other stuff, me and Dennis got different games. With the exception of our endurance. He told He. He spilled his heart and nobody heard him. Which got to me. I'm like, people are still talking about how crazy Dennis is or this, but did you not see the Oprah interview? He was molested. Parents didn't want him. He moved in with somebody else. They didn't want him. This guy had every reason to fail in life. And when he made it, finance attacks your emotions. That's the thing people don't understand about money. Whether you're an athlete or a founder that exited. We know a story where founders commit suicide. So much money, they don't know what to do. Money taps into your emotions. And it's not that you're a bad person. It's your experience in life, you see? And when I saw that story with Dennis, it made me just love him more, you know, it made me love him. I understood him. And I was going through some stuff too different, but I was also going through some stuff. So, you know, that's the type of stuff that's kind of how I look at it.

B (73:12)

You wore 91 because of that, correct?

A (73:14)

Yes.

B (73:15)

Because of how it spoke to you. Because of how his voice reached through the television and made forced empathy upon.

A (73:21)

Absolutely. I wore 91, actually. So the Bulls were my favorite players, favorite team growing up. Even though I hate when they beat the Knicks, I did not want the Bulls beating the Knicks. But after the Knicks, I love the Bulls. So I wore Michael Jordan's number. I got defensive player of the year, Michael Jordan's jersey, and I was third. So I did my best work in Michael Jordan's jersey. I love Michael Jordan. Even though I accidentally broke his ribs in a pickup game. And then. And then Dennis was going to be next. So I ironically get into a fight in Detroit in Dennis Robbins jersey. I did not plan this.

B (73:54)

I don't know the story of you breaking Michael Jordan's ribs.

A (73:57)

It was out there. I didn't put it out there, Gentleman. Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune. He put it out there. So then it got out there. So now I'll just talk about it. But it wasn't me bragging about it.

B (74:09)

And it's still not you bragging about it.

A (74:11)

It's not bragging about it. It was out. It's out there. You know, I'm a fan. I wore number 23 because of Michael. I love Michael. He was the only former player. He's the only player to call me during the brawl besides maybe Reggie Miller, because we was teammates. But Michael Jordan was the only one to call me and come for me. It was incredible.

B (74:29)

What did he say. Just.

A (74:30)

He said, you're gonna be okay. Just hang in there. Couldn't believe it. Michael Jordan.

B (74:35)

But how'd you break his ribs? Well, I don't.

A (74:36)

Oh, it was a pickup game. You know, in the pickup game, we know Michael Jordan's a tough player. I was a young. I was a 20 years old, and I don't think Michael knew how strong I was. So he was posting up everybody else that was there, all these, you know, pros. But when it came to me, it was, it's not going to be that easy. And I don't think he understood that. And so we were just tussling, jockeying for position. And I don't, I don't move, you know, So I accidentally. He ran into. It wasn't like a fight. Sam said, I punched him. And can you believe that? In Chicago Tribune, Ron Artest punched Michael Jordan. Breaks his ribs. I almost died. I literally almost died. I couldn't believe he wrote that story. It was really disrespectful. I can't believe he reported that. That did not happen. Even Jordan called me after that and said, it's okay, it was an accident. I'm not going to fight Michael Jordan. But it was a really aggressive pickup game. Extremely aggressive.

B (75:34)

Did you ever run into anybody your size or roughly your size who had more strength than you?

A (75:40)

The only one in my position was LeBron. LeBron's. Hey, you know, he's faster. That was the thing with LeBron.

B (75:49)

Well, he's just bigger, right? I mean, he's, he's. He's six, nine. And he weighs more than you too.

A (75:55)

Well, he didn't weigh more than me. I was, I. Well, some people, it depends the year.

B (75:59)

I mean, he was like 2. He was 280 at one point, no matter what he was saying, his weight was at 2.

A (76:03)

I also played at 275. So the weight, it wasn't that LeBron, it was his speed and his spring. So you got somebody just as strong. Even if he's 5% less stronger than me, he's way faster and jumps way higher. That's a whole nother. Whole nother dynamic.

B (76:25)

Tell me some stuff about here, the other projects that you're involved in. Not just the Art Test Management Group, but DNA Doing Nothing Average. Your. Your agency, the, the efforts that you're making in business to, to stay connected.

A (76:41)

Absolutely. It's been exciting. Sports Doing Nothing Average is one of our portfolio companies, is a sports agency. Kobe Shinto is the founder. Female agent support her, signed to her. But I remember working with her almost fresh out of college and we just grew a bond and we started this journey on becoming a sports agent and then four years later she became an agent. We supported her and we still do to this day. It's one of our favorite companies and she's an up and coming agent and she loves the game. So yeah, that's doing nothing average. It's super exciting.

B (77:18)

And the Artest Management Group, our test.

A (77:20)

Management group is a holding company, is a consultant firm now. I launched it 10 years ago as a C corp. I knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't know how I was going to get there, honestly 10 years ago. But yeah, it's a holding company. We have 40 companies in the portfolio now. BuildOps is one of them which is a. A lot of people know about the company in the private equity world. Buttercloth is one easy care link. We have others in the pipeline. It wasn't, it was really hard in the beginning but you know, I just decided not to sway. I decided to stay in this field of private equity and get there. So, you know, it's been around for 10 years and we're gonna try to be around for another 10 years.

B (78:03)

Are you proud of yourself there? Is the math kid in you proud on some of the things that he's been able to do away from basketball that don't have much of anything else to do with basketball.

A (78:12)

It has nothing to do with basketball. No. I was actually forced to do this because I wasn't getting a lot of opportunities, you know, every coaching job, everything. So I had. I was forced to get into this in this field. But I'm definitely proud. It's not easy. You're going up against the Michael Jordans of this space. You're going up against the Tim Duncan's and the Michael Jordans of finance with no background and do you stop and give up or do you keep going and you know, my makeup, obviously we know it's not to give up.

B (78:40)

There's not a give up in this DNA or that DNA meta. Thank you. Always a pleasure talking to you and has been really wonderful to see your evolution, your growth and your embracing of change and challenges in order to stay positive.

A (78:54)

Sir, it's been great being on your show. I also want to tell people in 2028 I'm running as an independent. We already decided we're going forward. We're running as an independent.

B (79:05)

All right, what's the Tell us, Give us more. Is this something that you've announced before or are you announcing on the show.

A (79:10)

We announced it on the shop. So I'm super excited about it. I'm super excited about the American Dream. I've always been a kid that had an American dream, as we know, big on mental health and the well being of others. It's not just about the negative sides or sometimes there's a positive message that you can get across. And to have the opportunity to build a firm in a way where we can administrate. We also do fund administration, a lot of stuff in our firm, but in a way where we can manage this, it's just incredible. I can't believe where I'm at in my life. The American dream is live and well and we're going to continue to try to add value. So I'm super excited about 2028. We know I'm competitive so we know we don't have to worry about that with any human being that's walking the face of this earth. So I'm super excited about it.

B (80:06)

Thank you, Mehta. Thank you for the time you gave and thank you for sharing all of the story and the vulnerability with us.

A (80:12)

Thank you.

B (80:12)

You.