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- [00:02]
DraftKings Network Host
You're listening to DraftKings Network.
- [00:12]
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DraftKings Network Host
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- [01:25]
Interviewer
Surely in the history of south beach sessions, we have never had anyone tougher than this human being right here. Nancy Lieberman, two time Olympian, two time hall of Famer, Big three coach, champion, and a pioneer at Trailblazer. I don't know if you feel like one of those. Do you feel, did you feel like a Trailblazer while you were trailblazing or does that come afterwards?
- [01:46]
Nancy Lieberman
That is way after. You know, you play sports because you're having fun, you're with your friends and it gets you out of the house. So you could never think you're going to be an Olympian. You could never think you're going to maybe change the world or be a pioneer, a Trailblazer. And when it's all over and you can exhale and you look back and go, maybe I did something right. So, I mean, it just makes you feel good that maybe you set the plate for people coming, you know, behind you.
- [02:17]
Interviewer
You've written several books, but I don't know that people necessarily know how difficult it was or how it started. So let's go back to Brooklyn and the very earliest stages of you grabbing a basketball. What was your life like before that happened?
- [02:33]
Nancy Lieberman
Well, I always loved sports, but I had a very dysfunctional family. A lot of people do. But my father left when I was 8 and I was just miserable. We had. There were days we had no heat, we had no electricity, we had no food. My grandparents would come from Brooklyn to put food in the house. And I was really tired of people saying that I was stupid and dumb Never going to make anything of myself. I was getting in fist fights every day. I didn't have conflict resolution at 8, 9, 10 years old. And I was playing football, baseball, and last, basketball. But baseball was my best sport. But even back then, there was no clinical reason for me to want to play. I was always in the schoolyard, you know, playing in the hood and playing at the projects or if at PS 104. But the amount of people just saying things to me instead of just letting me be, I didn't understand it at such a young age. And my parents, my mother didn't know. I mean, I'd run away, I would hide. I just felt like I was by myself.
- [03:48]
Interviewer
I would think that it'd be lonely and you'd feel like an outsider almost all of the time.
- [03:54]
Nancy Lieberman
I felt comfortable on a ball field. I felt loved. Like if we were playing and the guys would say, we'll take her. It was almost like you say you love me or you were saying, we appreciate you. Because when I got home, my grandmother would say, act like a girl, walk like a girl. And then I'd be on the court and they'd go play like a boy. So the dichotomy of that within two or three hours and trying to understand what I was supposed to be doing. So it. But at the end of the day, sports made me happy and it filled me with joy. So I stayed with that.
- [04:34]
Interviewer
Was there a lot of love in the dysfunctional household or a lot that felt like love?
- [04:40]
Nancy Lieberman
There was a lot of fighting that I can remember, and I don't think my grandparents really understood. You know, my brother, you know, he was a very high level student in school. I was barely making the grade, but I just felt like I couldn't understand why I was always being attacked, verbally attacked for what I was doing. And I wasn't carjacking you. I wasn't in a gang, I wasn't stealing. I was just playing a sport that made me happy. But with boys, boys, always with boys. They toughened me up. And for me, the best part was when I started going up to Harlem and going to Rucker park. And that was like the next level of competition. And we had the park across the street from my house in Far Rockaway in Bayswater. And I can remember taking money out of my mom's wallet, like $2. I think they call it stealing. And I would take the train, the A train from Far Rockaway, change in Manhattan and take the e train to 155th up in the Bronx.
- [05:51]
Interviewer
Do you even have a basketball that you can afford under your arm or are you just taking the bus? Like this is a pilgrimage to the place, a sanctuary where you feel safest.
- [06:01]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes. And so I'm 12 years old and I'm on this train, but I would wear a jacket and I put T shirts in the jacket so I looked menacing on the train. And I would glare at people, like, do it to them before they do it to you. Like maybe they thought I was crazy, which is debatable. And I had a ball, a little rubber basketball. And I'd walk into Rucker Park.
- [06:25]
Interviewer
That's crazy.
- [06:26]
Nancy Lieberman
Rucker Park. And these guys were like, 12 year old girl, little red headed girl. And I'd be in the park and the guys would go, little girl, are you lost? And I'd say, are you? No, I ain't lost. Like I was all New York. How I talked before ESPN made me go to elocution school so I could be articulate for your show. And the guy goes, you know where you are? I said, yeah, this is Rucker Park. And I said, is your name Rucker? And the kid goes, no. I said, good, it ain't your park and I need to get good. So if you could help me, like, I really appreciate. And it defied all barriers, right? Respect is. Respect is respect. And I was not afraid. And the guys loved that. And so they would let me play. And the great part is like Gary, Ronald and Donald would ride the train back with me to Far Rockaway, make sure I got home. And my mom, I come in, you know, with these three black guys and she's like, where were you? You weren't at the park? I said, yeah, I went to Rucker park in Harlem. And she says, nancy, do you not know how dangerous it is? And I said, yeah, I know, but I wasn't going to hurt anybody. I just wanted to play basketball. And these are my friends. And mom, they're hungry, could you make some food for them? And she would make some spaghetti. They get on the train and go right back to Harlem.
- [07:55]
Interviewer
Fist fights. Every day though.
- [07:56]
Nancy Lieberman
Every day, every day. I mean, my mom was like, nancy, you can't beat up the world. I said, but they just make me feel so bad about myself. Somebody say something nice to me instead of, what's wrong with your daughter? And like I said, I got tired of hearing, you're stupid, you're dumb, you're never going to make anything of yourself. Ms. Lieberman, why don't you take her to a psychologist?
- [08:21]
Interviewer
What is the nature of the fist fighting. Take me through what you think is happening there and where a child rage and understanding is of getting into fights every day.
- [08:33]
Nancy Lieberman
My rage was within my home. The fact that I didn't have a dad. And my mom was a good person, but she didn't understand, you know, she was a woman from the 40s and 50s, girls don't play sports. I'm sure she was more embarrassed that I was always in the park with black kids and guys and those are my friends. But I didn't get any validation in my home. It's just I was always wrong, and so I took it out on other people. You know, if somebody looked at me wrong, if somebody said something to me, it was on and not proud of it, but we all. We all had stuff in our childhood.
- [09:20]
Interviewer
Why weren't you afraid?
- [09:24]
Nancy Lieberman
I didn't have the wherewithal at that point to be afraid. I was fighting for my life. I didn't know if I was going to kill you. I didn't know if I was going to kill me at that stage.
- [09:36]
Interviewer
What was going on with your mom? Were you talking back to her? What was the relationship like?
- [09:40]
Nancy Lieberman
My mom was just trying to survive, you know, I mean, she would sit there and wait for alimony texts that never came. She was hoping that our phones were untapped. We was hoping. She had so much going on and trying to take care of two children, relying on her parents to help us. Sleeping till noon, just probably going out at night. She was just trying to survive herself. And she certainly didn't understand me. And it just. There was so much going on in the house. I would keep my jacket down by the front door because at any point, Cliff and I would get into it and I'd grab my jacket and run out the front door. Cliff, my brother.
- [10:29]
Interviewer
Forgive me.
- [10:30]
Nancy Lieberman
So he's two years older than me.
- [10:31]
Interviewer
So tell me, what else was going on in the house, though, when you. What are the details that you remember when you sort of glide past? No food, no electricity, no dad.
- [10:44]
Nancy Lieberman
It was just support, you know, My brother was more of like, you know, a mama's boy. If my mom and I were getting into arguments, you know, he was always there to stick up for her. I mean, I can remember him like. Like I'm thinking, picking up a chair and, like, breaking it over me. And I was like, I'm done. Nobody's going to ever do that to me again. I love my mom, but I don't want my mom's life. You know, she was one husband away from poverty, and even at 12 or 13, I'm like, I don't want to live like this. I have to be different and I have to kind of carve out my own path. And sports is what fueled me. My confidence, my self esteem, my belief system, even though I was broken. And I think the epiphany in my life was one day I came in and I'm looking at the TV and there's this guy and he says, I'm the greatest of all times. I beat Joe Frazier like I beat George Foreman, like I beat Sonny Liston back in 1964. I'm too pretty not to be the champion of the world. I am the greatest of all times. I walked into the kitchen and I stood at, you know, kind of at the threshold and I went, I'm going to be the greatest of all times. And my mother goes, why are you talking like that? I don't know, but I'm going to knock you out. And she says, I am your mother. I said, okay, I'm going to knock him out. She says, him's your brother. I said, you better get used to me. I'm going to be famous. I'm going to be the greatest of all times. And I ran into my room and cried.
- [12:30]
Interviewer
So Ali is teaching you, Muhammad Ali is teaching you the idea of bravado, of spoken confidence, of being allowed to say the things that you think.
- [12:41]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes. And I fell in love with this man instantaneously. And you know, back in the day, it was, you go to the library or you watch him on Wide Motorsports with Howard Cosell. I was mesmerized by him. So he didn't know that he was changing the life of this little red headed Jewish kid from Queens who was a little girl. So I started getting serious about sports. I was playing in little leagues and then there was, in the Long island press, there was USA playing Russia exhibition game, 1974. So we all hopped in a car, went to Queens College, tried out. It was almost like America had talent. There was four different areas across the country. They pinned a number on you. There was 250 girls at Queens College and I was 15 years old. And at the end of the day, they kept making cuts, cuts, cuts, and then posting them on the wall. My number was on there. And at the end of the day, I was one of the ten kids girls they were sending to a three day minicamp in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I come home and I'm like, mom, mom, mom, you're not going to believe this, but I just made this tryout at Queens College. There were 250 girls. There ain't nothing wrong with me. Like everybody says, there's something wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with me if they are. There's something wrong with all of us. And I said. And she goes, nancy, I can't afford to put food on the table. How am I going to fly you to Albuquerque? So my assistant principal at Faroqua High School, she took a can of corn. You can't make this stuff up. Took the label off, cleaned it out, put a label on that says, we're endeavoring to raise $300 to send Nancy to the USA tryouts. This can went door to door. They raised enough money for me and my coach, Larry Morse, to go to Albuquerque. I go to the three day camp and there's 40 of us who tried out from all over the country. At the end of three days, I was one of 10 to go into the training camp with the Pat Summits, the Ann Meyers, the Lucy Harris future Hall of Famers. It was amazing. I could not believe how good these women were. And I had my ribs broken on the end of the second day. And the coach and the team manager, they're driving me to the airport. And Alberta Cox, the coach of the team, she turns around, she goes, now, honey, you work hard on your game because we're going to need you in 1980. And I looked at her and I said, like, coach, you know, like I'm from New York and like, I'm not that smart or nothing, But I know 76 comes before 80, and I'm going to be on that 76 team. So I like, you're going to have to get used to me. And I left. She fueled everything we don't need you to 1980. It was just another person telling me the Nancy camp moments of what I can't do. Somebody just somebody tell me what I can do.
- [16:10]
Interviewer
Well, you didn't have a lot of support and belief, right? Where was the support and belief coming from?
- [16:14]
Nancy Lieberman
Muhammad Ali?
- [16:16]
Interviewer
Far away.
- [16:16]
Nancy Lieberman
And that inner belief. So I end up making the Olympic team, the Pan am team, in 75. I was 16 years old. I was a junior in high school. Then I try out for the Olympic team. I make the Olympic team. I'm 17, so the youngest Olympian ever, male or female. And I'm thinking, I can't believe I'm here.
- [16:40]
Interviewer
Well, you've gotten deft at telling your parts of the story that take me to Ali. But you didn't answer my question about the details. You remember about no Money, no food, no electricity, no father. Before you get to Ali. Like that life. And on top of that, you're saying that people are telling you you're strange or you're. Something's wrong with you, you're broken worse than strange. What's the matter with her? She wants to play with the boys all the time. Like, that was the chief weirdness, right?
- [17:12]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes. But that was my happy space. Because, again, the guys in the park treated me with kindness. They accepted me. The guys in Harlem at Rucker treated me with kindness and respect, and they loved the fact that I was not afraid of them. And so all this. Like, the guys at Rucker, they were checking in on me all the time. That. We're talking landline. Okay? That. That took energy and effort.
- [17:45]
Interviewer
Well, you're. But you're. You're the only woman out there. You're the only girl out there.
- [17:50]
Nancy Lieberman
You're.
- [17:51]
Interviewer
You're going the loneliest path.
- [17:54]
Nancy Lieberman
But they protected me. I needed to be, even as a successful male. And I say this all the time to my NBA guys that I've coached, any of the athletes that I'm around. You're just. You guys are just little boys, and you want to be loved and cared for instead of told, you didn't do this. You didn't do this. You didn't. I'm like, they're baby boys. They're giving you generational wealth. They're giving you things you never thought you would have. Just support them. I tell my friends, that's why you're divorced. You don't support the people who are trying to help you. So I might not have known that in my teens, but what I did know when I was in this cluster of athletes, even at USA Basketball, because I was so young, all the coaches were there. I was the only high school player there. So everybody was kissing my ass because they wanted me to come to their school. So I construed that as love. It's pretty crappy. Well, it felt good, though, at that time. It did. So then, you know, I make the Olympic team. Then I had 100 scholarship offers. So. Because I was always an underdog, I looked at everybody. I looked at ucla, I looked at Cal State, Fullerton, Delta State, and I'm like, who's the team with the worst record? Old Dominion. Nobody has ever heard of them. They're like me. So I go to Old Dominion because I wanted to kind of put my thumbprint and hope. So seven freshmen got to Old Dominion. We go 125 and 15. It's amazing. In four years we go 23 and nine, we go 30 and four.
- [19:42]
Interviewer
Why were you getting so why were you getting dumb though? Why were you getting. You're not good enough. Where was that coming from?
- [19:49]
Nancy Lieberman
Because my brother was the A student. He was gonna be a doctor, he was gonna go to Queens College. He was, you know, mathematically he was.
- [19:56]
Interviewer
And you're just a Hooper. And not only that, you're a girl playing with the boys. And so your own family thinks you're strange.
- [20:02]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes, because I'm getting D's and C minuses. Cause I don't want to do this. I. This makes me happy. I'm the one going to the park at six in the morning to shoot. You know, I don't know about. I didn't know about mental health or anxiety or depression because I don't think I had that. Even though I was hurt because that ball was my oxygen. That baseball, that mitt, I can remember my first mitt. I can remember falling in love. Like with Bobby Mercer.
- [20:36]
Interviewer
I remember Bobby Mercer. I'm surprised to hear you say you were better at baseball than you were at basketball.
- [20:41]
Nancy Lieberman
Far better. I could have played on the Far Rockaway baseball team, but we had softball. I could have played baseball in college, but Old Dominion didn't have like softball or anything. And basketball was my scholarship. I had to get out of my hood. I had to be something. The Ali stuff was always in the back of my head. I had to be something. And when we won the nit, when we won back to back national championships, I asked for two things. At Old Dominion, I asked for number 10 because of Walt Frazier. And I asked to play in Madison Square Garden. Four years we played in New York. I said, please let me go home because my guys in the park have no money, but they're going to come to the game because they beat the crap out of me to toughen me up for all these experiences. It was tough love. They were my parents, you know, and.
- [21:44]
Interviewer
Again, my mom, Rucker park in Harlem. Were your parents?
- [21:48]
Nancy Lieberman
They were my parents. Were your parents.
- [21:49]
Interviewer
Was your mom and dad. That's nuts.
- [21:52]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes.
- [21:54]
Interviewer
So it doesn't even make sense though, the idea of a 12. There can't be another story like that. A 12 year old taking the train, 12 year old white girl taking the train to the most legendary outdoor park that there has ever been in the history of New York.
- [22:12]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes, but like, I would rather have people not say they love me. I'd rather have people be loyal to me because dogs are loyal and my dogs in Rucker park were loyal and protected me when I did, you know, a couple years ago, Kevin Durant, 35 Ventures, you know, with Rich Kleiman, they did Point Gods.
- [22:38]
Interviewer
They did the documentary series, the doc.
- [22:40]
Nancy Lieberman
And I was one of the 15 or 16 in that documentary, which was an honor. And they said, where do you want to shoot your episode? I said, center court at Rucker Park. And I go to Rutger at this point in my life where, you know, everybody's like, nancy Lehman, da, da. And they're yelling from the projects, fire, yo, fire. And I'm like, come on, come down. People were coming down and hugging me. And the production crew is like, you know these people? I'm like, this is my family. You think they're strangers? They're my family. And the love and the kindness and the protection. I could go into Harlem at three in the morning right now, today, and people will protect me. And the most important thing is I'm not afraid.
- [23:30]
Jeremy
What am I, Jeremy? I'm a back to back Stanley cup champion. That's what I am. That's right. We all are. Do I play for the Panthers? Do you play for the Panthers? No, but we're champs. And what do champs do? They celebrate. And how did me and you celebrate yesterday? By cracking open and cheersing an ice cold Miller like. That's exactly right, man. There's no other way to celebrate a championship, is there? I've never heard of another way to celebrate a championship. Outside side of cheersing with Miller Lite. I was at Elbow Room the other day with the players. I saw Sam Reinhardt signing jerseys with a Miller Lite in hand. No lie, 100% Miller Light in hand, jerseys being thrown up to him. You can confirm that. I can confirm in. Oh, and it's Miller like guys, because like us, the Panthers know a great tasting beer. There's just something about that perfect day. Celebrating a championship, maybe grilling. The sun's out, friends show up and the first sip of Miller Light just hits different. I've been stocking the cooler with it for years and for good reason. It's brewed for taste only. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. This year, Miller Lite turns 50 years old. That's crazy. You look great. Miller Lite.
- [24:32]
Nancy Lieberman
So good.
- [24:32]
Jeremy
You look great for 50, I'll tell you that much. That's five decades of cookouts, laughs, and ice cold moments that never miss. It's the original light beer and still my go to Miller lite. Great taste. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com beach to find delivery options near you, or you can pretty much pick up some Miller Lite anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.
- [24:58]
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- [25:29]
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- [25:57]
Interviewer
I'm going to ask you again what literal hunger felt like as a child, because I'm trying to figure out how you became who you became. And I think it has to start with something that is extraordinarily willful. And so coming from nothing, as you've said, looked like felt like what I.
- [26:18]
Nancy Lieberman
Felt like I was hiding my pain. I didn't want people to know how I felt, like I would never put my feet up because I had holes in my sneakers. They'd make fun of how I dressed. You know, if it was checkers and polka dots, I didn't have any sense of style or whatever, or red hair and freckles and blue eyes when people like redheads are not, you know, mainstream. So there was always something. So I was hiding that we were so poor because everybody was so nice to me in the parks because of my basketball, my athletic ability. I'm gonna take you forward. I built a dream court for Billy Crystal in Long Beach, New York, maybe eight, nine years ago, after Hurricane Sandy. And I had all, like, my high school people come and be with me from Farock Away. And I had a chance to tell Stephanie Conrad, a friend of mine, one of the few girls that I was close to every day at PS104. Stephanie lived that way and I lived this way. And she would say, come to the house and have lunch. And I was like, okay. And her mom would make these tuna fish sandwiches and cut them up. And I would be like, thank you, Mrs. Conrad. I appreciate Ms. Conrad. Do you have more potato chips, Mrs. Conrad? And she was like, she's so hungry. And I never said anything until that day in Long Beach, New York. Billy, his wife. And I was like, stephanie, I wanted to thank you. Like, at this point in my life, I could look her in the eye and say, this is who I was. This is what you did for me, and I'm grateful for that. And she started bawling. She was just like.
- [28:16]
Interviewer
She didn't know you were hungry?
- [28:17]
Nancy Lieberman
She knew I was hungry.
- [28:18]
Interviewer
Like, hungry. Not just hungry for the day, but just walking around the world hungry.
- [28:24]
Nancy Lieberman
And, you know, people were so nice. You know, if you're not going to eat that, even remember Hostess Twinkies and the Ding Dongs and all that? If you're not going to eat it, I'll eat it.
- [28:37]
Interviewer
Is this how you became tough, though? Obviously, basketball has something to do with it, but where are the places where you can say, no? That's what made me strong. Those are the things that made me who I am.
- [28:50]
Nancy Lieberman
I don't know if I can define strong, but I can define what was acceptable to me and what was not acceptable to me. And I knew I am not going to live this life. This is not how I'm going to live. I don't know how I'm going to get from here to here, but I think sports is going to do this for me. And as one thing, playing in the Olympics in high school or then getting a college scholarship, player of the year in college basketball. And then, you know, like the. You know, the Dick Shapps taking me under his wing and coming to Old Dominion and making sure that he had tabs on me. I'd come home, he'd say, you're going to come. We're going to. This is what we're going to do. Jeremy Shap, right on this knee at lunch. A year old, two years old. Dick was very instrumental in just making sure that I was protected or learning. And he would introduce me to so many people. He's like, you need to do this. And you need to come to this event. And again, I don't have. I can't tell you why. Like, I want to do a book that says, how do you know. Dot, dot, dot. How did you know Dick Schapp? How do you know Muhammad Ali? How are you friends with Kevin Costner? How are you friends with Warren Buffett? How are you. How are you friends with Ice Cube? I don't have a clinical reason. I don't even know how I'm here with you, and I'm a fan of what you've done and what you've done with Poppy. And to make me laugh or just how you were with your family was very impactful to me. And I get a chance to tell you this in real time, like, right now.
- [30:37]
Interviewer
Well, the people that you mentioned, though, so many of the men that you mentioned are obviously gravitating toward a place where common. Commonalities exist on the chasing of excellence. Like, they're. They're. They have at least some sort of Dick Shap. When you're talking about Dick Shap, he's got some knowledge of what it's taken to be you. The difficulties, the impediments, the obstacles. Just. He's got this much knowledge, but he's got such knowledge. So I imagine that that's a place where you connect with all of these people is respect.
- [31:08]
Nancy Lieberman
I hope so, and I think so. And you know, some of the people that got to know me, and he got to know me because he interviewed me so many times. He was down at Old Dominion so many times. And I think he got to see probably that I was hiding behind being Nancy Lieberman, and I would never really open up as you and I are talking. This conversation would have not happened.
- [31:31]
Interviewer
The story protects you, though. I can imagine that you've developed some armor over the years and had to in order of. To tell the story in a way that is palatable, inspirational, but not too vulnerable, because there must have been a whole lot of garbage inside of the dysfunction.
- [31:49]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes, you're spot on. So we win the national championship. I'm player of the year in college basketball. I'm asked to come December of 79. This is the turning point for me. Come to the New York Stock Exchange to do an appearance for the Olympic Committee, a fundraiser. Gives me a chance to go home, be with my mom, with my best friend growing up, going up the escalator, and I look at the guy and I go, yo, who's the other athlete? You know, kind of that bravado. Who's the other athlete with me. And he says, yeah, we're going in the green room. Green room. I said, well, who's the other athlete? And we get to the top. He goes, oh, yeah, it's you and Muhammad Ali. And I'm like, he's here. Muhammad Ali is here. I'm like, 21 years old. And the door opened, no joke. And it was like that Oprah, huh? And the glow. And he's. I was hyperventilating. So on the 76 Olympic team, there was, you know, Sugar Ray Leonard. There were all these different boxers. And I love boxing. And Howard Davis, who won a gold medal, and he was from Queens, and I saw Howard and I beeline to Howard. And my mother goes up to Ali and puts her arms around and goes, Mr. Muhammad, I'm Renee Lieberman from Queens, and my daughter. My daughter is the greatest of all times. And Ali looks at her and I'll show you the picture. I have it in my phone. And he goes, listen, there's only one greatest of all times, and it's me. And my mom goes, yeah, no, I know you're good, but my daughter. So he gives me this. It's like you and I right here. And I'm, like, looking down and I'm telling you I couldn't breathe. And he goes, your mom says you're good. And I go, no, Mr. Muhammad, I'm the greatest of all times. And Mr. Ali, like, I beat people up all the time, like, every day. And he looked at me and he says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I said, yeah, but they irritate me and they bother me. He says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I'm like, you hit people? He goes, I get paid to hit people. Interestingly, he's taking my information in like you are. And when it was all said and done, he says, can you come back to the Plaza where he was staying? And we went up in his suite, and we were there for four hours. He's teaching me about racism. He's teaching me about what hurts black America. The color of their skin or people who are not, by and large, white. And he taught me about philanthropy. And he looks at me and he goes, nancy, you're going to shake up the world. You're going to change the world. And I'm like, I have a game on Tuesday. Like, I'm not understanding what he's saying to me. And then he says, God made you special. And Dan, the thing that connected me for Ollie for 37 years was my answer. You know, God, too. That is so cool. Like, what is he like? Have you spent time with him? And he looked at my mother and goes, I'm going to need your land number. I'm going to need your physical address, because I'm not letting her out there without me. And he would call me in college. He would check in on me. He was trying to come see me play, but the security was so difficult. Every step of my life, he was there and he would just check in on me, and I couldn't believe it. And the things he taught me. He taught me to respect everybody, but fear nobody. He says, you're going to encounter some hard times. Humility is confidence, arrogance is not. And I'd go, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. It ain't bragging if you're good, you know? And I would. We had this fun kind of back and forth with each other as I got older and I came out of retirement, like three times. I'd sit at the house with him and I'm like, you know, I've come out of retirement more than you. And he gave me the lip.
- [36:18]
Interviewer
Oh, but wait a minute. You came out of retirement at 50. You came out of retirement because you wanted your son to watch you play at 39. And. And then the other time, it's just hard to let go. What, what was the age of the. The other time that you came out of retirement?
- [36:33]
Nancy Lieberman
Well, I basically, basically retired after the wbl, the first women's league, folded. There was no league for me to play in. And then I got asked to play in the usbl, you know, six years later, which is the men's league equivalent, let's say, to the G league, then at 39, then at 50. And I would always just joke with him, but he gimme that lip. And I'm like, stop it. Stop the lip thing, Lonnie. He's doing it again to me. And we would just. He would just laugh with me, and he was just always there. He came to my first game when I was coaching in the NBA, when we played the Phoenix Suns.
- [37:17]
Interviewer
When you say that you were getting into fights all the time, it sounded like you just described that you were often winning them as well. It's not like you were good with the fights, like you were good at fighting.
- [37:29]
Nancy Lieberman
I was, I was. I practiced on my brother and, you know, Ali, you know, the jab. And I became a little bit of a smartass because we'd fight and I'm like, this is red. You might Want to get a tissue? There's a lot of red here, too. I was surviving with my mouth and then trying to just, you know, let people know that you're not going to be able to do that to me or to hurt me.
- [38:02]
Interviewer
When did you come by your mother's support? When did it arrive, if at all?
- [38:08]
Nancy Lieberman
I think my mom, you know, after playing in the Olympics and then all the media and I think, you know, if Dick were alive, he'd tell you. He'd ask her a question about. And she say, oh, I'm so proud of her. You know, she scored two. Two touchdowns. He goes, she. She didn't play football well. You know, she scored baskets. And he was actually helping my mother. And I think she. She had to figure out, ma, come to a game. See. See what I do? And, you know, don't tell me. You shouldn't be doing that. Girls don't play sports. This is what the neighbors are saying. I don't care what the neighbors are saying. So, you know, I developed my Mamba mentality of, this is. This is who I am. This is what I am. This is what I'm going to do. I don't care what you say about me, because this is my ticket out. This is, you know, I became my mother's mother. And because she had nothing like, she's trying to survive, and sports was my vehicle.
- [39:21]
Interviewer
Well, you became your mother's mother more literally at the end. You had to leave a job with the Sacramento Kings to take care of her. You were the first female assistant coach in the NBA.
- [39:33]
Nancy Lieberman
Becky. Becky was the year before me.
- [39:35]
Interviewer
Okay, forgive me. The second you were in a job that you were enjoying, or was it okay or loved it.
- [39:43]
Nancy Lieberman
Vlade Divac was my gm and Peja Stojakovic, I loved it. You know, I was doing what I loved. I loved being around Rondo, and I loved being around DeMarcus and Rudy and, you know, Seth Curry and Nick Collison, Marco Bellinelli. It was really. It was good stuff for me. It gave me a chance to get to that next level, see what that next level was about. We were a little dysfunctional with George Carl, to be quite honest, in Sacramento. And my mom got sick, and I went into Vlade's office and I said, sir, I feel responsible for women's basketball and what comes up behind us. And, you know, it's just, Jackie Robinson comes into Major League Baseball, historic. If Larry Dobie doesn't come after him, it's a tragedy. If Becky gets hired, it's historic. If Nancy doesn't get hired. It's a tragedy. It could be Nancy, it could be sue, it could be anybody. But we can't have one offs for the optics. Growth is growth and we have to be given opportunity and chance.
- [41:00]
Interviewer
Oh, so you didn't want to quit. You couldn't like it hurt you to quit anything?
- [41:05]
Nancy Lieberman
Because I felt responsibility and I'm not a quitter. But you know, in life you say, you know, it's God and family and job, and then you're in it and it's money and money and status and family and God. And I think people get that twisted when so much is being thrown at you. And now I'm not poor Nancy. By that time, I'm rich Nancy. And now what's changed are my priorities in line. And, you know, sometimes you have to check your own motives of what you're doing. And I, I needed to be with my mom. She's in Florida, she's sick, she's getting older, she's in her 80s, she's probably 88, 89. And she has nobody. So I said, vladi. And he goes, it was great, Nancy. You go to your mother, Peja, Peja, come here, come here, Peja. Peja walks in, he goes, nancy, it's what Vlade said. You go to your mother, you have no regrets. And I'm like, okay. And then he goes, I give you two year extension. I go, I don't want a two year extension for something I'm not doing. I don't want to take anything from somebody. I have to earn. What? That's how I my belief system. Vlade is the best. I love that man because he took the pressure off me. So I'm with her. My mother goes, you're never with me. I go, I have 189 nights at the Marriott in Delray Beach. What are you saying? I'm not with you? You know, the Jewish guilt, you can't win. And I'm like, I'm leaving. I don't live here, but I'm here as much as I can be here. So I'm at home. This is 2018, you know, I step away after summer league in 2017, and I'm watching the NCAA tournament, flipping back and forth on the men's and watching Straight out of Compton. My phone rings, it's restricted. I'm like, I'm not answering it, you know, and then I'm like, wait, you're a girl, you're curious, right? Fomo.
- [43:21]
Interviewer
Oh, you might be missing an opportunity there of some sort.
- [43:24]
Nancy Lieberman
So I I'm like, go right back to being New York. I go, yo, who's this? And he goes, yo, it's Ice Cube. I'm like, yo, do I call you Mr. Cube? Mr. Ice? What do I call you? He goes, call me Cube. He goes, nancy, I'm in a room with people who primarily look like me, and I'm a man of equality. And I said, sir, he said, we would like for you to coach in the Big Three. I know about your mom. It's three months, it's two days a week. We'll schedule a game in Florida so you can see Mom. He said, you'll be the first female head coach in a men's professional league. I was like, well, that's great. I said, sir, are you checking a box? Don't you hate when people do that to you? And he says, no, I think you can win. And I said, well, I really actually wanted to hear that. And he goes, and tell your agent you'll be the highest paid coach in the league. You'll make what Julius is making what? Michael Cooper, Gary Payton, Rick Barry, Rick Mahorn, George Gervin. I'm like, the highest paid equality. And he goes, yes. I don't know about you, but I had never heard that before. Well, you know, this is what you're going to get paid. But he does the same description and he's making this, well, if you want to be here, this is what you're going to get paid. So then you're like, I need to get my foot in the door. Do I push back too? You know, those are the life's choices. And this guy is saying, you don't have to even worry about that. Seven years later, I'm working for a black owned business. I'm working with someone who celebrates me, doesn't tolerate me. And one of the really cool moments of my life was when we won the championship in 2018 at Barclays Center. There's 17,000. It's sold out, the confetti's coming down. And we're on that podium that we've seen so many times. And here's Cube handing me the championship trophy. And I just looked at him and I said, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. You don't know how good somebody can be if you don't give them a chance.
- [45:45]
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- [46:14]
Interviewer
Your story wouldn't make any sense without basketball, right? You would not have access to black culture as fluently as you do, given your upbringing as a white Jewish girl. Like, there would be no access to that in a meaningful way. And yet it seems like your safest space. It seems like your most fluent and comfortable space.
- [46:39]
Nancy Lieberman
It is 100% comfortability for me because I get a chance to be a good leader of men, Even though I coached in the W and I loved it, would do it again, coached in the NBA. But I thrive in that environment. I'm big Mike on the blind side. I have protective instincts and I don't like to see underserved or minorities being treated poorly. And I'm strong enough and clearly, you know, have done this for so many years. I'm that person. And I won't leti will not let people hurt other people to the best of my ability. Two things can happen. You can hire me, you can fire me, but, like, in my locker room. You can have your children run around the locker room. You can have your wife, your granny, your sister, your brother, your significant other 30 minutes before the game. I'm firm but fair out. Don't be calling the locker room telling your husband your tickets aren't good enough. He has a job to do. This is his job. Handle your business. Let us handle our business. These guys, this is maybe a soft landing to retirement. Maybe these kids never saw what their daddy did for a living. Maybe these kids were not even born. But he has given you generational wealth. And I want them to see what their dad did. There are good men. I am the first one to say that the myth that black, Latino, any of these different athletes, they're not good fathers. They are hella great fathers. And they love their kids and they love their family. And I get so tired of hearing, well, you know, they got 10 kids. And I'm like, cut the crap already. What generation are you talking about? So that's when Nancy. Fists up Nancy. I don't like when people do that to my guys or other guys in the league for that matter, because this is still my family. And then I get to coach my son in this family environment. And we got more. We got more, you know, black kids coming into my home, wherever I have lived. And I look at my neighbors and I'm like, this is my family. You treat them with respect. Don't do any of that, you know, behind shady stuff. This is my family. These are good people. So I'm very, very protective.
- [49:28]
Interviewer
You couldn't have dreamed. You couldn't have even dreamt this from what it is that you were like. Even your wildest imagination couldn't have looked like what we're presently blossoming in, too.
- [49:37]
Nancy Lieberman
What's happened in the last three years is supersonic. I mean, Caitlin is a dear friend of mine. I remember when Lisa Bluder, during COVID called me and said, hey, can you zoom with my team? I got a player here. I think you'll like her. You know, she kind of plays like your style and whatnot. And Paige got injured the year before. Paige won the Nancy Lehman point guard of the year award, and she got hurt a couple of times. And then the ascension of Caitlin. So I got to know her through these zooms every October. And then she played in the championship game in Dallas three years ago. And I remember being on the phone with her, and I said, caitlin, I don't know when we're going to meet. And she had already won the award a couple times. I said, I don't know when we're going to meet. I don't know how we're going to meet, but when we meet, it's going to be powerful. I'm sitting in the corner like, here's the little locker room. Like, you know, the corridor to get to the locker room. And she finishes doing her espn. You know, they're getting ready for the championship game against lsu. They had beaten South Carolina. And she's walking, and she's got all this security around her. And we looked at each other, we hugged like we were hostages, long lost friends. It was so powerful. And she goes, you're coming in the locker room. And I go, no, I don't have a pass. And she has my hand. She goes, I'm your pass. And I'm walking with her like, this is not my time. This is her time. And Lisa says, please talk to the team. And I go in the locker room, and I'm like, I'm just so proud of you guys. This building is full. The ratings are going to be bananas. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing for women's sports. I was an unpaid pioneer, y' all. With Nils, you're paid Pioneers. And I'm super happy for you. Thanks for just, you know, kind of moving the needle. And we've had so many of these moments where, you know, I've got a chance. You know, she's nice. She'll text me. She goes, my goat. I go, stop calling me a farm animal. And, you know, I'm goofy with her. Like, I'm goofy with you.
- [52:02]
Interviewer
Your need for protection, though, did it affect or damage or end your relationship with Cheryl Swoopes that you were protecting or defending Caitlin Clark?
- [52:13]
Nancy Lieberman
It's a great question. I was very protective of Cheryl throughout her career. Very, very close. Took her, went with her to her first ESPYs in 93 after they won the national championship. And I'm on the treadmill that morning, and she's trending on all different stations, and it pops up and I'm listening to it and I'm like, wow. So I picked up the phone and I called her. Now, she disputes this, but I did screenshot to let her know the call happened. And I said, hey, I'm calling as your friend, as your sister. She's not 25 years old. She's not a fifth year senior, and she doesn't take 40 shots a game. I said, your numbers are wrong. And she goes, I can, you know, so she said to me, look, I can have my own opinion. I go, absolutely, you can have your opinion, but just get your numbers right. You know, they're going to fact check you and you can play it off. You can me a culpa. You can, you know, I was wrong and just take it on you and you're the hero of the story. But she dug in and then we got into it, and I don't want to get into it with anybody, but it became so much larger than life. And I would do this for Angel Reese, who I love. I would do this for Asia Wilson, who doesn't need me. But we, our generation, we have to celebrate this generation.
- [53:55]
Interviewer
Oh, but I think that you probably feel more deeply than most the idea of people pushing on you, a lack of belief or a lack of support or it's as if it's not hard enough already without putting more obstacles in front of you. So I'm gathering that you're probably doing some of your own, you know, roots on your path stuff there. No, you. You would have liked for and you did have people who protected you.
- [54:24]
Nancy Lieberman
Yes. But, you know, the thing is, if we don't stick up for this generation, who are we? I mean, it's happened forever in men's sports. How do little kids today know who Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays or Hank Aaron? Because people share the history or what? Like I told you, I was a Bobby Mercer fan. People are blown away that I was so in love with Bobby Mercer. I could emulate his stance. You know how it is when you're a kid. And I stuck up for sheryl swoopes in 93. You know, I mean, it's so important for us to understand this. There's no place for jealousy in our sport. We're trying to get to the next level. MJ, when he came into the NBA in 84 and the arenas. Even though Magic and Bird were a great rivalry, mj, they were still playing in half empty arenas in some places. MJ was filling them up. Who were they putting on national tv? Michael Jordan. Who was changing the salary structure? Who was changing endorsements for young athletes, Expressively black athletes. When Tiger woods came to the pga, the ratings went up, the attendance went up, the purses went up. Why would people get mad if at the cash cow. There's 14, 15 millionaires in the WNBA right now. Everybody's getting a bite at the financial apple. It's a great place to be. Let's pull together for each other and not make this a racist thing. Not pit each other against each other. You don't have to like everybody. There's people you work with that you don't like. There's people I work with that I don't like. But in the name of being successful together, you do what you have to, especially when we're moving the needle at a very crucial time for us. And so. And then, you know the thing with Stephen A. He calls me in the middle of the night, hey, can you come on the show and can you talk about this? And I just said the truth. I said what I feel and Nancy lied. Now you're going to make me show a screenshot which I don't want to do. Please.
- [56:49]
Interviewer
In terms of things that have surprised you as you've seen the WNBA grow a two year, $10 million contract offer for Caitlin Clark from the big three. The WNBA as we speak here has just announced expansion. You're watching just record ratings all over the place. What are the one or two things that you've seen that you can say? I could have never dreamt this in my wildest imagination. From where my begin.
- [57:17]
Nancy Lieberman
That's a great question. Just the overall economic success. It's one thing to play basketball. It's an. We are in the business of Sports, it's a multi trillion dollar business. And as I tell people all the time, you know, women players today, do you have season tickets for the Liberty or for the Storm or for the Aces? We should. Why should men purchase tickets to see us play if we don't? And it's changed our life economically. So I couldn't have seen the, you know, the Taylor Swift effect financially, but I'm really excited about where it's going. You could have bought a WNBA team 10 years ago, 12 years ago, for a of years, couple, you know, fact check me, but, you know, 8 million, 10 million, I don't know. You know, I'm sure the league will call and give me the right numbers, but now they're estimating it at 280 million. I think the Liberty, I saw something about a month ago. They got an evaluation of 450 million. It's a real business. It's not a mom and pop organization. And I'm very thankful to David Stern. And I used to say it when I was coaching in the league. Every player in the league and coach should write a letter to David Stern and say thank you. I'm like, put on my little tomb. Gratitude. Gratitude. It's just a thank you for taking us from here to here.
- [58:51]
Interviewer
What can you tell us about the details of how little money you were making while you were busy pioneering?
- [58:57]
Nancy Lieberman
50 grand was my first salary in the WNBA. It was crazy. There was the 50. There was. I made 40,000. There was the 40,000. 50,000. We were the elite players. And then I think it was like in the 20s, and it was amazing that first year. Like, I didn't know Abner Doubleday and I didn't know Abe Saferstein who started Major League Baseball and the NBA. But how many people can say they played the first year of the W? And you might or might know this, but in 1984, I'm at home in Dallas and David Stern calls me. He says, can you come to New York? I'd like to talk to you. So I go up and he closes the door. And I said, why'd you close the door? And he says, they'll fire me if they hear this conversation. He said, nancy, before I'm done being commissioner of the NBA, there will be a wnba. I was like, what? He says, my only hope is that you'll still be around to play in it. And when you're 25 years old, you're like, david, I'm going to be around to play. Fast forward to 1997. I'm 39 the morning of the game in Phoenix against Charlotte, David Stern calls me in my apartment in Phoenix. I'm like, hi. And he was visibly emotional. His voice was shaking. I said, hi. He says, I didn't know if you were going to get here. He goes, I'm just so proud of you. I said, typical me. I go, I told you I was going to be here. Why did you not think I was going to be here? And, you know, we just started to laugh. And everybody owes him and Adam Silver a really. And now, you know, Kathy Engelbert, our commissioner, we owe them a grit of, you know, gratitude.
- [61:02]
Interviewer
What is the biggest difference, would you say? Obviously, it's financial, but if you look back to you roughing it versus how they have it today, what are the biggest differences?
- [61:11]
Nancy Lieberman
They don't have to fight to get respect. We're respected everywhere. I walk in airports, I walk in malls, and people are like, oh, my gosh, I saw the game last night. I did the game. You know, Paige, Caitlin, game Friday night on Ion in Dallas, you know, Caitlin couldn't play because she had pulled her groin. There was over almost 21,000 people in the building, celebrities everywhere watching the game. And I'm sitting there and I have it on video. I took a video and I'm like, this is amazing. I'm thinking, God is good these gals get to play in this building. The enormous national exposure. They know your name and they know your game. And for that, there's a two year old that none of us know. And because of what you're doing as a pioneer and a trailblazer. Caitlin, you're a trailblazer. Paige, Asia, Stewie, all the great players in this league. Nancy, like I said, I was. Thank you. An unpaid pioneer. They're paid pioneers. And there's a 2 year old who in 20 years is going to be making 10, 15 million a year just playing, not endorsements. We are advancing this thing on a whole nother level and you should be so proud of it.
- [62:48]
Interviewer
Are you, though? Do you allow yourself to absorb that you're at least in part responsible for all these things that you're looking out over with awe and gratitude? You're not off to the side of it. You're at ground zero.
- [63:04]
Nancy Lieberman
I might have been. I was at ground zero. But when I went back before the game towards the locker rooms, I always make sure that I'm extending myself to today's players.
- [63:17]
Interviewer
You're not going to accept the pride that I'm asking you to have, are you? You're going to Deflect it. You're going to push it away.
- [63:24]
Nancy Lieberman
Clearly know who I am. I understand my place in history. But it's also important to me. Everybody has their own why. But to go back and talk to Sophie Cunningham and to talk to Aaliyah Boston and to talk to Lexi Hall. And when I went there, their PR person said, we want to introduce you to Nancy Lieberman. And Sophie Cunningham goes, everybody knows her. And I hugged him. I was like, that's really nice of you. Because life is about choices. Right? Up, down, left, right, duality. Maybe they don't know, but it's okay. But now we do know. And if there's anything you need, if there's anything you need, you know, Asia, I'm here. Or angel or Paige or any really anybody.
- [64:17]
Interviewer
I would assume that there are an assortment of women who have had the same experience with you that you've had with Muhammad Ali. That you would be that for a young person who might not know what their promise is, a young person who might not have love or support in the home, but needs to find it on television.
- [64:46]
Nancy Lieberman
You know, it's funny you say that. Let me just. I don't want to lose that thought. But you know Hitch, the movie, which I love funny movies. You don't know where you're going if you don't know where you came from. I'm part of where they came from. So I think the W is doing a good job of bridging US pioneers to today's enormous talent. For 20 years, I've had people want to do my life story. And it was like, no, no, no. I wasn't ready. Had I done it, I would have missed coaching in the wnba. I would have missed coaching in the G League, coaching in the NBA. Coaching now. I would have missed this day in Miami with you getting a chance to properly meet. And it's like we met and we didn't know each other, but we felt like we knew each other. And that's a powerful moment, and I love those moments. So now I'm getting ready to do my life story. And I'm not sure if my life story is over, but, damn, I'm going to be 67 years old. I got a Medicare card. I'm going to take everybody else's Social Security from you before you get a bite at that.
- [66:10]
Interviewer
Tomorrow is her birthday. Happy birthday to a pioneer. A trailblazer. It is an honor to spend this time with you. Your story is a riveting one. Thank you for spending this time with us.
- [66:22]
Nancy Lieberman
Thank you for Having me. And tell Poppy I say hi, I.
- [66:25]
Interviewer
Will pass along your regards. And he will say, as he does with many American athletes, who the hell is that? It is no disrespect of you. It's just a shining symbol to how proud he is of his ignorance. Thank you, Nancy.
- [66:38]
Nancy Lieberman
Thank you so much.
- [66:50]
Jeremy
What am I, Jeremy? I'm a back to back Stanley cup champion. That's what I am. That's right. We all are. Do I play for the Panthers? Do you play for the Panthers? No, but we're champs. And what do champs do? They celebrate. And how did me and you celebrate yesterday? By cracking open and cheersing an ice cold Miller Light. That's exactly right.
- [67:06]
Nancy Lieberman
Man.
- [67:06]
Jeremy
There's no other way to celebrate a championship, is there? There's not. I've never heard of another way to celebrate a championship outside of cheersing with Miller Light. I was at Elbow Room the other day with the players. I saw Sam Reinhardt signing jerseys with a Miller Light in hand. No lie, 100%. Miller Light in hand. Jerseys being thrown up to him. You can confirm that? I can confirm. And oh, and it's Miller Light, guys. Because like us, the Panthers know a great tasting beer. There's just something about that perfect day. Celebrating a championship, maybe grilling. The sun's out, friends show up and the first sip of Miller Lite just hits different. I've been stocking the cooler with it for years. And for good reason. It's brewed for taste only. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. This year, Miller Lite turns 50 years old. That's crazy. You look great. Miller Light.
- [67:51]
Nancy Lieberman
So good.
- [67:52]
Jeremy
You look great for 50, I'll tell you that much. That's five decades of cookouts, laughs and ice cold moments that never miss. It's the original light beer and still my. Go to Miller Light. Great taste. 96 calories. Go to millerlight.com beach to find delivery options near you. Or you can pretty much pick up some Miller Lite anywhere they sell beer. Cheers to 50 years of Miller time. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Co. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs for 12 ounces.