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- [00:02]
Dan
You're listening to DraftKings Network,
- [00:11]
DraftKings Network Announcer
Ready to
- [00:12]
Jay Bilas
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- [00:34]
DraftKings Network Announcer
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- [00:37]
Jay Bilas
The Home Depot Dream Baths built here. You said you were over him, but his hoodie's still in your rotation. It's time.
- [00:46]
Dan
Grab your phone, snap a few pics
- [00:48]
Jay Bilas
and sell it on Depop. Listed in minutes with no selling fees. And just like that, a guy 500 miles away just paid full price for your clos.
- [00:58]
Dan
And right on cue.
- [00:59]
DraftKings Network Announcer
Hey, still got my hoodie?
- [01:00]
Jay Bilas
Nope. But I've got tonight's dinner paid for. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste list. Now with no selling fees, payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.
- [01:27]
Dan
Welcome to South Beach Sessions. I'm excited to do this, at least in part because I love talking to people who are top of the food chain, excellent at what they do. This guy has been doing it for a lot of years, has a great deal of craftsmanship in his work. I don't think people understand how hard it is to have your level of expertise and your stamina for what it is that you're doing at this age. And I don't say that as an insult. I know you're a former athlete, but you turned 60 recently and I can't believe you're still taking two flights to get to middle of America so that you can be the expert on guard play come March because you've been watching the game since January. I would think that the ESPN ethos and thank you Jay Bilis for joining us, would have over time made you work slightly less hard. But nothing is evident in your work that would suggest you're working any less hard.
- [02:19]
Jay Bilas
Well, thank you. That's way too nice. I think as I've gotten older I'm more efficient, but this job isn't nearly as hard as the job I had before this. I was a lawyer and did both broadcasting and practice law at the same time. And so this seems like a layup relative to what I did.
- [02:39]
Dan
Well, tell us about that time because I don't think people know the entirety of the story. You were working for ESPN part time for how long? Law is obviously a full time job. You're a bit maniacal about your work
- [02:50]
Jay Bilas
ethic I would say I did that for about eight or nine years. So I was an assistant coach at Duke. After I finished, I played pro basketball overseas for a few years and Coach K offered me a job as an assistant coach. I was a graduate assistant. And about the time I was deciding whether to take it, I got admitted to law school. And it was Coach K's idea that I do both. So I went to law school while I was a graduate assistant. And after three years on his staff and in law school, I just, it. I thought I'd be going to coaching and be a basketball coach. But about that time, my girlfriend, fiance, we got married. And when we were deciding what was the best thing for us, it didn't seem like coaching was going to be the best thing for our family. So.
- [03:42]
Dan
How so? Just the rigors of it, the stress of it, the lifestyle.
- [03:46]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, I think in talking about it, you know, if I did well, we'd probably have to move every five years for the first 15 years. And both my wife and I grew up in the same. We didn't grow up in the same area, but we grew up in one place. She grew up in Maryland, I grew up in Los Angeles. And we had stable family lives. Our parents weren't moving all over the place and that's what we wanted. We wanted to pick a place and live there. And obviously if things didn't go well, we'd move or if it was necessitated by employment or something else, we would, we would do what it took. But basketball wasn't going to give us that kind of life. We didn't think. So I had a law degree, so I went with a big law firm in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I thought, okay, I'm going to be a lawyer. And I started practicing as a first year associate. And I got a phone call from a guy named George Habel who was the president of something called the Capital Sports Network as a radio network. And he wanted me to do games for the radio. And I thought, I don't know if I can do this. I can't carry a law of practice and run around doing basketball games. But I thought about it and I thought, you know what? If I can't handle it, I'll quit. And law is my job. But I'd like to pursue this and see what happens.
- [05:03]
Dan
The games were more fun. A lot more fun.
- [05:05]
Jay Bilas
Way more fun. Yeah, but it was, you know, this was back in the 90s, so you didn't have the technology you do now. I'd be able to carry it off with More ease with the technology now, because now my desk is everywhere I go before I'd come back from a road trip and I'd have to go straight into the office from the airport and get work done. So I was either in the office or on the road.
- [05:28]
Dan
Well, I want to talk about how this affects family and I want to talk about a couple of different pieces of the journey. Because you mentioned grad assistant. I don't think people understand that. If you're a grad assistant for Coach K, I'm guessing you're an intern working maniacal hours outside of your law practice. You're working two full time jobs now. You don't have time for any kind of life other than work. Correct?
- [05:50]
Jay Bilas
I thought I did, but I probably didn't because I was doing things I wanted to do. So you had to make sacrifices. When it came to being a lawyer and doing the broadcasting and then family life, I probably wasn't as acutely aware of the sacrifices I was placing on my family because I was focused on doing what I felt I should be doing. And so I definitely shirked responsibilities there. And luckily my wife Wendy kind of sat me down and straightened me out on that.
- [06:21]
Dan
Well, tell me about that because I've got a number of questions. First of all, the guy who's playing in Spain and Italy, my guess is, is having his dreams die. Right. He wanted to play in the NBA. Right. And so you're chasing your dreams and Wendy's supporting your dreams and she's got her own dreams as an artist. But we're living in service of what Jay is chasing, right?
- [06:39]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. We were married at the time, so we were dating. But we had decided when I went overseas, we had kind of said, look, let's not put any rules on ourselves here. If we decide we're going to have exclusive relationship from that long a distance, we're going to create nothing but problems. So we know where each of us are and we'll get together when we're supposed to get together. But let's not put any rules. And to this day, neither one of us have asked each other what happened during that period when we weren't together. Which is probably smart for her. But when.
- [07:16]
Dan
Who's more afraid to ask?
- [07:18]
Jay Bilas
Oh, I'm more afraid to ask her. I don't, I don't want to know. But when, when we got married and I started running around doing games and, and I was in the office and all that stuff and working during the summer or off season, I would get phone calls from friends of Mine saying, hey, can you come host our charity gala? Can you come appear at this camp? Speak at this camp? And all that. And she came to me one time and said, you know, she was very kind. She said, you know, I'm really proud that your first instinct is to say yes to people. But she said, you need to understand something. When you say yes to someone else, you're saying no to your family. And that was crushing to me. You know, it was really. It was a gut punch, in a way. But it also helped me realize I got to start saying no to things, because I used to think, mistakenly, that I was missing something, you know, so, you know, I'm on the road. I'm making the sacrifice. I'm missing this family thing. And I was really missing from it. You know, I was the one causing the problem. It wasn't a problem for me. It was me causing a problem. And, you know, I wised up a little bit after that. I wasn't perfect, but I've gotten better. And I kind of realized that no. Because she said, if you say no to them, they're not going to cry. They're going to pick up the phone and call somebody else. Like, it's not a problem for them. And, you know, you think a request now all of a sudden, it's your responsibility. It's not your responsibility. And my responsibilities were more at home. And so I think I've done a better job. I'd have to ask her, but I think I've done a better job of balancing that. But that was an important moment for me, sort of to realize that I wasn't paying as close attention to what was really important. And when our kids were little, when they were babies, she told me one time, she goes, you need to pay attention to this. She says, babies are temporary. Like, this is going to be over soon. And that was helpful to me.
- [09:22]
Dan
They're wiser than we are. I have found at an earlier age, and forgive me if I'm misreading this, but it feels like I can almost see the shame in your ey as you talk about your wife having to explain this to you.
- [09:34]
Jay Bilas
Not shame, just illumination. You know, that I don't know that my priorities were as set as hers were. Like, she knows what's important. And that was really helpful to me because I don't, you know, my priorities were all over the place. And, you know, I think Pat Riley probably said it, but I heard it most from Jeff Van Gundy. He said, your decisions reveal your priorities. And my decisions revealed that and look, this wasn't like I was out drinking all night or running around.
- [10:08]
Dan
Well, you were concentrating on you, though. You were it's self involved almost. Man. You had to be maniacal to get to the top of excellence about making sure. It took all your bandwidth to make sure you could get ahead. And obviously there's gonna be neglect and love for others somewhere in there, whether you realize it or not.
- [10:25]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. And I think I was probably raised that in a way, or came up at a time when it was a little more selfish. Like, you know, sort of the idea that men were expected to go out and accomplish and do this and that's for the touchy feely stuff is for the women. And even though that's not true, Wendy helped me realize, you know, kind of what I was missing.
- [10:51]
Dan
I know that with love. And I don't know if you want to tackle sort of how to articulate. You're one of the great eloquent spokesmen anywhere in sports, considered one of the brilliant minds in sports. What you've learned about love with your family and with a union that now goes back 40 years old. And as I'm guessing, if, if, if it's anything like me, I am being taught how to be a man in some ways, in ways I'd never considered before, because the, the woman's perspective allows me to see where my blind spots have been and how, how silly I was in being resolute about some things that I had conviction about because I thought work was the most important thing. Because how could I not continue to achieve? Isn't that what I'm supposed to be doing? Isn't that what Coach K and everyone else has given me great many rewards for being all of my life?
- [11:43]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, I think that's right. I think, you know, I keep going back to the priorities thing of, like my wife and my daughter especially, they deal in beauty. Like they're both artists. So my wife's probably, of all the people I've ever met, she's the most comfortable in her own skin of everyone I've ever known. And she's also, she's really in tune with her environment. Like every morning she makes a cup of coffee and she walks out onto the back porch and just looks out over the yard. She knows every bird. She has all these birdhouses out there and she's in tune with her environment. I'm not, you know, I'm one of the guys that I go, what's the guy's name across the street that puts the Christmas lights up Like I don't know my neighbors names. Like she knows everything about our neighborhood. I know very little. And every once in a while she'll say, you know, you know exactly what club you hit on the sixth hole six months ago. But you don't know when trash day is. And she's right, I don't. Cause it's not something I'm.
- [12:52]
Dan
Is she more present than you are? Because my wife has a connection to right now that I envy and covet. It's someplace I want to spend more time in because I'm always off to the next task, the next thing to be accomplished. It sounds like your wife stops with her coffee in the morning and allows all of life to wash over her and the present moment is just about all that matters.
- [13:14]
Jay Bilas
That's really perceptive because I think that's exactly what it is. Like I'm more focused on what's next and what I need to do and my task list and all this stuff. And you know, she gets more done than I do. She has the same, same task list and in her world, which should be my, I should say our world, but she is more present, you know, she experiences the day to day better than I do. And when I get on a plane, my first instinct, like all I'm focused on is getting off the plane. You know, she's going to enjoy the flight and talk to the person next to her and you know, get to know people.
- [13:55]
Dan
Do you envy it? Because it sounds like life can pass you by that way. I know it's happened to me. It's the only reason I recognize it is the only reason I ask you the question. If you're that task oriented, if you're always off to the next thing, you're not as present as you need to be in the thing that is where you are.
- [14:09]
Jay Bilas
I've gotten better at that. I wasn't good at it years ago, but I've gotten better at it. And I think that's part of getting older is you realize kind of what's important. So my world has been shrinking over the years. I'm more likely to stay away from things that don't do me any good and people that don't do me any good. It's not like I give everybody the Heisman if they're toxic or stuff like that, but I just kind of remove myself from stuff like that. And she's always been good at that. Her world is smaller than mine in that regard. Like, and that's a good way to put it, like she's present about everything. So she's taught me a lot and I've learned a lot about, you know, how to do things from her and how, you know, you're supposed to, you're supposed to experience this. That's the whole reason we're doing it. We're not going, you know, we're not doing this to get, to get to the end of it. We're doing it to enjoy it while we're doing it. And so I've gotten better at that because of her.
- [15:03]
Dan
When you think of the reasons that you admire Wendy, because I don't know if you went from law to something that was more creative, at least in part because you have a creative part of you that was stuck in the architecture of whatever your parents wanted for you. Because you had to go to law school. There wasn't. You didn't have an option, right? You had to. That was your parents choice for you. And basically that's what you had to do.
- [15:30]
Jay Bilas
I could have said no, but it would have caused some problems. My parents grew up in an area called San Pedro near the port of Los Angeles. And my dad, his parents emigrated from Yugoslavia, former Yugoslavia. So my dad didn't speak English until he went to school. He was born here, but didn't speak English until he went to school. And neither one of my parents had the opportunity to go to college. So school was a big deal for them. And they were concerned that at that time, you know, my friends that I grew up with never, we never asked each other, where are you going to go to college? The question was, are you going to college? Are you going to go to college? And I think my parents were a little concerned that what if he doesn't go? So college was a big deal. And then after I got through college, my dad really wanted me to go to law school. He didn't care whether I was a lawyer. He just wanted me to have that in my back pocket. And he used to tell me, you know, you don't have to be a lawyer when you go to college, but you'll be able to handle your own affairs. And if things ever get bad for you, you can just hang out a shingle and make a really good living. And I didn't want any part of being a lawyer. I didn't want to go in the first place. But it worked out and I went and I'm really glad I did. They were right. But I thought law school was going to be this broadening experience. In a lot of ways it was. I learned a lot and I Was around some amazing people that are great friends of mine to this day. But law school is also a narrowing experience in that law schools spit you out into big corporate law firms. Law firms will come interview, and if you want to use your law degree in a way that's non traditional, you have to be really proactive and do it yourself because otherwise you're going to get spit out into a law firm. And those law firms can be like, I bet you I would have been voted of my law class least likely to stay with a law firm for a long time. And I've been with my firm for close to 31 years now. But if I'd had to practice those 31 years as a full time lawyer, I never would have made it that long. I don't think I could have taken. I didn't realize, Dan, how stressful it was until I quit when ESPN made the offer to me and I took it. I gave my firm notice that I was going to leave and they asked me, I had a couple cases going to trial and they asked me would I stay and see these cases through and said that I would. And I had a case, I had a case going to trial and I was getting up in the morning and I was putting my little suit on and getting ready and back in our house we had a little TV on an armoire in our bedroom and Charlton Heston was on like the Today show with an NRA thing and he was saying something and I'm arguing back at the TV set because what he was saying was total bs. And I was going back at the TV set and my wife Wendy says, you need to quit. Like you need to stop this job. And then when I quit and went into basketball with espn, all of a sudden all this stress went away. You know, I didn't have time sheets, I didn't have to worry about some client calling stuff that, you know, when people say, oh, you work really hard, you're so prepared. It's not close to what I did as a lawyer. And so to me it was a layup, relatively.
- [18:42]
Dan
Oh, but it's also, it's not just the work, it's that you love this. And I'm not saying you don' love law, but I don't think, I don't think you love law the way that you love college basketball. Still, still the way that you love college basketball. But is there a creative person who was stuck in the labyrinth of I've got to do basketball discipline, I've got to do law discipline, I've got To be tough. Like, what is your imprinting from your parents when you talk about both work ethic. And you wrote a book 10 years ago about toughness. Like, where does that, where do both of those things come from?
- [19:13]
Jay Bilas
Well, it evolved. I think law taught me a lot about. A lot of what I am now, I think came from having gone to law school and been a lawyer. There was always a part of me when I was in law school that do I belong here? Because there were so many amazing minds there that I could not keep up with. I think I, well, I shouldn't say I couldn't keep up with. I knew I wasn't in the ballpark with them. It was kind of like as a player when you realize, you know, I'm in high school and I'm a, you know, I was one of the. Considered one of the best high school players in the country. And then I get to college and I played against Michael Jordan and Lynn Bias and Ralph Sampson. I go, okay, there's a different level here. Like, I'm never going to be able to do this. Like, I, when I was in high school, the more I worked, the better I got. And I didn't see a ceiling. And then you got to college and you played against those guys going, all right, that they don't have a ceiling. I have a ceiling. I can't.
- [20:14]
Dan
I'm not gonna, you know, then that you're not gonna make it as a pro or you're still trying in Italy and Spain, right? You still think you're pretty close.
- [20:20]
Jay Bilas
Well, I was a good player, but I wasn't. I wasn't that good. I mean, there's a difference between. It's like being, you know, being a golfer and playing in the Korn Ferry Tour. You're really good. You're just not as good as Tiger and Jack and that stuff, you know, and Michael Jordan was the Tiger of basketball. So you're seeing.
- [20:38]
Dan
It's a crushing realization though, isn't it?
- [20:40]
Jay Bilas
Not really. It's just. It was a realization. It wasn't crushing because I knew I could still play and I felt like I could still play in the NBA and I think I could have. But back then, you get drafted, you're going where you get drafted. So I was a fifth round draft pick. I'm going to Dallas whether I wanted to or not. And you know, they had 13 guaranteed contracts. They were Pacific Division champions. So I went over to Italy. That was my level. And I made more money in Italy than I could have made if I made the Mavericks back then, which is really kind of bizarre. But it was a really fun period because I went from being a high school star to a college kind of role player on a great team to being a star in Europe again. So being a load carrying star was fun for me again. But after three years of it and then when I got the offer from Coach K, I realized like, okay, how long do I want to stay over here and do this? I've kind of proven to myself what I want to prove and there's other things out there for me and if I turn this down, I'm turning down something that can set me up for the rest of my life. I thought it would be coaching, but the law degree was a setup for the rest of my life that I just didn't realize how valuable it would be.
- [21:51]
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- [23:21]
Jay Bilas
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- [23:47]
Dan
How much do your parents have to do with the both toughness and work ethic? Like where it seems like you couldn't have arrived at the things that you are unless you were a bit maniacal about how you work?
- [23:59]
Jay Bilas
I don't know that I was that. I think when I was in high school, there were certain things that came easy to me. I don't know that I was a big time worker. I worked hard, but I don't know that I was as intelligent a worker as I should have been, both athletically and academically. Like, I got really good grades, but I didn't really bust it. I could have done way better in college. I realized pretty early that you want to get an A at Duke, you're going to have to work your ass off. B's, not that hard. And I was going, I'm okay with B's, because basketball was more important to me in the school. And it wasn't. The school wasn't important, but basketball is more important. I kind of figured early on, 10 years from now, nobody's going to ask me how I did on the test the night before the game, they were going to ask me how I did in the game. So I felt like that was more important. But when I grew up, my dad was a really hard worker and he was gone a lot. You know, he'd be at his shop working. He did go. He didn't go to all my games when I was a kid. But in high school, he didn't miss a game, went to every game. And, you know, he had gotten to a point where he could leave work to come to the game. But, you know, watching him work, I couldn't keep up with him. And I don't think my work ethic even compares to his. And I kind of thought he was the toughest dude that ever lived when I was a kid. You know, how do I measure up to that? But he never got the chance to play. He worked from the time he was a teenager. You know, he was a commercial fisherman, as my grandfather was. And then he started this tv. He went to technical school and became, you know, learned electronics and started his TV business. And that was his thing. He Was a TV sales and service guy and did very well. So I had no wants as a kid.
- [25:50]
Dan
Top toughest. How, though? How was he tough? How did you see that in childhood,
- [25:55]
Jay Bilas
the way he worked? He did not. Outside of our family, I didn't realize how much he took at home. Like, my mom ran the house. I didn't realize my dad was kind of afraid of my mom. But outside of the house, he didn't take any BS from anybody. He was very nice. But his thing was, like, when I was in high school, I had a girlfriend in high school, and my mom did not like her at all, and she gave me the what for about it. And I kind of asked my dad, like, what do you think? And he said, why do you care what I think? I don't have to go out whether you do. And I was like, okay. That was the kind of guy he was. And if I ever had a problem with a teacher, like, I had a teacher at my high school who gave me a hard time, I missed. I was sick the day of one of the playoff games that we had in the California State playoffs. And so I didn't go to school that day because I wanted to be prepared for the game. I was in pretty bad shape with a sort of flu or illness or something. So this teacher decided that, wait a minute, there's a rule that if you don't go to school, you can't play in the game. So he tried to keep me from playing in the game, and it didn't work. I played, but my dad said, stay away from that guy. Like, he's trouble, and you don't need to cause a problem. You don't need to talk to him. Just stay away from him. Like, avoid him. And he could handle things in a way that I never thought of. And so he was pretty tough in that regard. And he didn't like. He never yelled at me. My dad never criticized me about my play after a game. He would just say, hey, you know, he wanted to know what happened in the huddle. That was funny. But he didn't compliment me much either. It was more, you know, hey, you played good. Yeah, I had 40 points in a game. He says. He says, yeah, you played good. You know, he didn't, but he meant it. But he wasn't throwing compliments around like rose petals at my feet.
- [27:51]
Dan
You're better at that with your kids, right?
- [27:53]
Jay Bilas
Way better. Yeah, way better.
- [27:55]
Dan
Cause you learn. You don't like how that feels, right? To always be.
- [27:58]
Jay Bilas
Well, I don't know.
- [27:59]
Dan
I mean, you can have the respect, love, and admiration of your father. You could do the translations on his behalf, but you probably also would have liked to have felt his pride slightly stronger.
- [28:11]
Jay Bilas
I felt it, but it wasn't like now where you talk about everything. So I. I stayed totally out of my son's basketball career or baseball, whatever it was. I didn't want him thinking that how he played mattered any more than him just enjoying it and being prideful in his own play. So I tried to stay out of that stuff. But, you know, I. When he played well, I let him know, you know, that I enjoyed watching him play. And, man, you really busted. That was great stuff like that. I was a little more. Little more outgoing in that regard.
- [28:43]
Dan
How was your mother, or how was your family life able to conceal from you that your father was a little bit afraid of your mother? Because I know in my household, a traditionally Cuban household, I can only see this now in retrospect. I didn't see when it was happening that my mother was running the household, but making it seem like my father was in charge. And they presented such an important united front that I got to 30 years old, not even kidding, being in the backseat of a car before I saw them argue. And I was reduced to sort of a toddler, like, confused by it because my mother was sort of concealing my father's limits for me. How is it that they were able to conceal from you that your father was afraid of your mother?
- [29:22]
Jay Bilas
Same way. The exact same way that they were very united front in front of me. I never saw my parents argue in front of me. I heard it maybe once or twice in another room, but it became clear when I became an adult that there was one person running the house. It was my mom. And my dad would have to sometimes make excuses to get out of the house and do something he wanted to do. But I don't know that at that time, was that horribly unusual. I think now, at least with my relationship with my wife, we have. This sounds corny, but it really is beyond love. It's a partnership, you know, and one thing we've done well is we don't keep score. And if I go on a golf trip, she's not saying, well, wait a minute, that entitles me to do this, you know, she wants me to go do what I want to do when I can, and I want her to do what she wants to do when she can.
- [30:19]
Dan
What a great freedom to have in a relationship that if no one's counting, there's not a lot of room for Resentment there.
- [30:24]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. I mean, and that's because of her. Like, we've never. But we have talked about it. Like, let's not keep score on stuff. And we've never done that. And it's because of her and how sort of easygoing she is about things. But there's a we first thing about our relationship. It's whatever decision is made. I'm not making the decision. Well, I take that back. She makes all the decisions on decor in the house. We actually had to talk about that. I made a suggestion. It got shot down right away. She's in charge of the decor, but outside of that, every decision we make is what's best for us. What do we think? What do we want to do? So it's very we oriented.
- [31:04]
Dan
Why do you think it's corny to say we have beyond love? We have a partnership? I mean, romantic love is lovely, but I would think that your definition of love at 60 is a hell of a lot different than it was at 25.
- [31:15]
Jay Bilas
Oh, yeah. It's deeper and more appreciation for what she is and how little I bring. You know, all I've really brought. You know, I provide as best I can, but she's the emotional center of everything.
- [31:34]
Dan
You feel it sounds like, as I do, almost inadequate in the size of its light. Right. You sound like you're deeply admiring of your wife for making you a better husband. Father, son. I know my wife has helped me a great deal there because I just didn't have. I didn't know what I didn't know until I loved so much that I couldn't help but learn it.
- [31:57]
Jay Bilas
When did you. When did that hit you?
- [31:59]
Dan
Oh, because I had. Early in my relationship, I had been making the same mistakes that I had made all of my life of just sort of succumbing to what I thought were the patterns that were the right way to live. And then I just had my perspective changed by someone gently, ever so gently showing me stuff. It wasn't with reprimand. It was always with understanding and acceptance so that I would see things myself and then just sort of be horrified at what was looking at me in the mirror. Things that I couldn't unsee because I was just. I was succumbing to the same patterns that had always made me unhappy in relationships. Until I realized that there would be great light and looseness in following instead of feeling like I had to lead because I thought that I knew things. And I. It didn't seem like in retrospect, it's clear I didn't know shit. I thought I knew everything and I didn't know anything. But I'm arriving like this. You're arriving at a 40 year relationship with that understanding. I'm arriving with it at 50. I'm getting to deep into adulthood and just having things stripped away that they caused me great shame that I didn't see them before now. But as my therapist says, well, be glad that you saw them at all. You can still rectify them.
- [33:10]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, I mean that's a really good point. Like I don't know that at least for me. I hear what you're saying. I'm not sure shame is the right word. I mean, I'm grateful that these things were illuminated to me through her, that she saw these things and she would say, oh, I didn't do this or I didn't do, she did. But when you are with that every day, like I've probably been a project of hers. She's accepted and tolerated a lot of my shortcomings and worked on them with probably a longer view than I've had. It's not just, hey, you don't do this well and you need to stop doing this or whatever. It's come over time. So she's been accepting of things, but she's nudged me in the right direction. And so when in all these different things we're talking about, when I've come to the realization that, hey, I screwed up there, I've not done this right, I was grateful that I've had that in my life to help me. And that's kind of been a partnership too, of making me a more feeling person, caring about things I never cared about before. You know, I've gotten better. I'm still a, you know, who's the comedian? Bill Burr that, you know, we're this unfinished building that's got scaffolding around it and you know, my wife is museum quality under glass, all finished. But I tend to think that's more the truth.
- [34:39]
Dan
Well, I don't know if it's true of you in some ways. My wife married a gorilla and only because I feeling so accepted and so understood at every turn. Am I not defensive or don't let my ego get in the way of where it is that I have to be a better person because to be a better person is to live in better service of her, which then allows me to love myself better because I'm happier in general. And when I tell you I'm unforgiving with myself, so I do assign shame there. But she's inherited that Your wife has known you full for 40 years. So she basically, she. I'm guessing she knows you in some ways better than you know yourself.
- [35:20]
Jay Bilas
No question. And, you know, I don't. She would say that. She would probably say that I don't need any help in loving myself, but
- [35:30]
Dan
I think most people. I think most people would say that about you.
- [35:34]
Jay Bilas
But. But she's. She's really helped me in kind of realizing that, look, I'm falling short here, and I'm not paying attention to this. I think she knows that it's inside me. Like, I feel the same way other people feel, but I haven't allowed myself to in certain instances, or I shut off this because of something that happened years ago or whatever. I've had situations like that. But she's.
- [35:59]
Dan
Are we talking about repressions there, Coping mechanisms? We're talking about you being scarred somewhere and just not wanting to show people more of yourself.
- [36:06]
Jay Bilas
Sure, sure. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know anybody who doesn't carry scars from things that have happened. But, you know, she's been really helpful with that. And especially as we've gotten older and our lives have changed. Like, we were talking recently that, you know, we're both 60 now, and we were saying, you know, this is going to end pretty soon. Like, we've had a run of each stage of our lives. We've enjoyed more than the one before, and we're going, that's not gonna. That's not gonna be the case all that much longer. You know, there'll be health issues. You know, something's gonna happen where the. The next stage not gonna be as good as the last one. We're gonna hit that stage.
- [36:45]
Dan
What a magic carpet ride, though, to feel like it's always getting better.
- [36:48]
Jay Bilas
It's always gotten better. Like when the kids went to. We've got two kids, they're 29 and 27, and we, you know, especially her. But we really enjoyed them when they were little. Like, we had a blast with them. And when they got to high school, we were starting to dread my wife more than me. We were starting to dread, you know, they're going to leave soon, they're going to be in college. But it seemed like our kids exhibited their readiness to go. And that made it way easier on us because they're ready. And we might not have been ready to let them go, but when they left and went to college, we had this whole new world open up. And we're like, we don't have any obligations now. Like, we can say yes to anything. Somebody calls and says, you want to go to dinner? We're like, yes. And we didn't have to guard the liquor cabinet anymore or take kids to this thing or that thing or worry about, you know.
- [37:42]
Dan
So you transitioned well into empty nest, because you can get right back into the relationship. Not that you weren't in it before, but the relationship could be yours again, as opposed to just living in service of the kids all the time.
- [37:53]
Jay Bilas
We started dating again, kind of, and it became incredible amount of fun. It was different. So we're still chasing the kids around, but we're not obligated. We don't feel obligated to. We're doing it because we want to. It'll be fun. Let's go see them, or let's see what they're doing. Let's go to our daughter's horse show, or let's go visit. And it's been really fun. And, you know, everything now. Like, when I was a kid, you know, there was a lot of have to in my life for all of us. I have to do this, I have to do that. I have to go to school, I have to go to work. I have to. And now we're at a stage of life where, because we feel like we've handled the have to pretty well, most of what we're doing now is want to. I still have some have to, but not as much. And that's been a fun way to live, where you feel like, you know, most of my life is want to. And at some point, you know, we're gonna quit our jobs and move on. And I'm kind of. There's a part of me that's not lamenting that. Like, I'm not lamenting retirement at some point, because I think it'll open up yet another. As long as we're physically and emotionally and mentally healthy, there's gonna be a fun there that I'm really looking forward to.
- [39:05]
Dan
Well, you have part of the pie chart on happiness figured out. If you're walking most steps with gratitude. Like, if you're taking inventory of your life as you're living it, it's pretty present to be. Like, right now is the best time. This is the happiest we've ever been because our life keeps getting better. I mean, you can fear the other, you know, the doom on the. On the horizon. You could fear the mortality, or you could spend all your time in the happiness of knowing that your now is better than it's ever been.
- [39:32]
Jay Bilas
And that's another influence of Wendy is You know, I know there's going to be a problem at some point, but I'm not worried about it because the now is so good. So I want to enjoy the now. We've got Wendy and I have these really close friends. A buddy of mine from college. So I've known him for 40. God, whatever it is, 41 years. I met him in 1983 and he married a girl that he met in law school. And they were married up until four years. She passed away about four years ago. And he was hopelessly devoted to her, kind of like me and Wendy. That was his whole life. So she passed away. We've got another friend that was a neighbor of ours, woman who lost her husband 12 years ago. And she was devastated and took her a long time to feel normal again. My wife decided that she wanted to introduce those two and I was totally against it. I'm like, don't do this. This is not an area for us to get involved in. And I'm thinking, like, let's not lose two friends over this. But she said, no, I think they would really appreciate each other. So she introduces them at our house. And they got married a couple years ago. So they're happier than they've been in a long, long time. And my thing was my friend the man, longtime friend. I thought that when his wife passed, it was going to be this long period of him. And she said, no, he's going to be okay. This has been devastating, but he's going to be okay. Because he's a social animal. He's. You're not reading this the right way. If I were in his position, I wouldn't have been able to function the same way he does. He's a different personality than I am. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I don't think Wendy will wear a red dress to my funeral. She might, but she'll be fine. She'll handle it. I would not do as well. I'm so reliant on her for every bit of emotional happiness. I think I'd have a problem. Like I never thought I would be this reliant on someone. That never occurred to me.
- [41:55]
Dan
Because you're so self sufficient. Because you're proud of your self sufficiency?
- [41:58]
Jay Bilas
I guess. I mean, I don't know, but it never. When I dated before I met Wendy, and even in the time we were kind of separated by distance, I never felt that. Felt that way about anybody else. So I never had to think about it. And you know, now when you've had all this and you've seen your friends go through it. You know, you think about how would I do? And I know I wouldn't do well. I'd figured out, I mean, I wouldn't, you know, hopefully wouldn't be a complete blob that couldn't leave the house. But I don't know. I don't know how I do, but I know I wouldn't do as well as she would do.
- [42:38]
Dan
You would have been an unhappy lawyer after how many years if it's all you had done? Because it sounded like you were already getting to a place where you couldn't abide, that that was gonna be the next 30 or 40 years of your life and only that.
- [42:53]
Jay Bilas
I don't know, Dan. Like, I don't know that that's the case. One of the things that was really illuminating for me after I quit was I didn't know that I was stressed. I was handling it and I didn't. I.
- [43:08]
Dan
You only saw it all in retrospect.
- [43:10]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, I was. I was really happy. Look, my job was hard. There were aspects of it that I didn't love every day I love what I'm doing now. I don't love to travel. There are times I wake up and I'm thinking, God, I gotta get to. You know, like you were saying, I gotta get to Lubbock, Texas.
- [43:27]
Dan
I can't believe you're still doing that. Like two flights and a two hour drive to Lubbock, Texas for a February game.
- [43:33]
Jay Bilas
It's not that bad. I mean, I enjoy it more now because I don't have. I think my wife gets on me about. I take the first flight out after every game. So sometimes I'm waking up at, oh, dark 30 to get a 6 o' clock flight to get home. I was doing it years ago because the kids were little and I wanted to get back. Now I just want to get out of where I am. I feel better when I get home, even if I'm tired and even if Wendy's. I get home and Wendy's out of the house running around with her art career or something, and I get back to an empty house. I'd rather be at home than be in a hotel somewhere. So the travel wears me out a little bit. And the older I get, the more I have to pay attention to making sure I sleep and all that stuff. But I don't sleep during the season and I can't sleep if I've got a flight the next morning. It doesn't matter what time the flight is. I'm not gonna sleep, at least not sleep like I do at home. So the travel kind of wears you out. But I'm lucky it's seasonal. So I, I busted from travel wise from basically October until April and then I got a little bit of time off.
- [44:35]
Dan
But I think you have an unusual sort of pain threshold. I believe you're writing a book about toughness 10 years ago because you can endure a whole lot of stress without acknowledging that it's stress.
- [44:45]
Jay Bilas
Maybe I wrote that book because I wrote an article on it. I was watching a game and some announcer like me had praised a, A, a player that was nothing but a big bully. And he said, oh, it's a tough guy. He's a tough player and all that. I'm like, he's not a tough player. He doesn't do anything tough. He's. He's a bully is what he is. And for some reason it motivated me to write an article of what toughness means in basketball. So I wrote this article and I sent it in. This might be 15 years ago. I sent it in to my editor@espn.com and basically said, you didn't ask for this. Nobody asked me to write this. I just felt move to do it, use it if you want, don't use it if you don't want. And they used it. They put it up on the free site. Some of my stuff was on a paywall back then behind a paywall. So they put it up and I couldn't believe the response. You've had this, but I've never had this. I've never had something I've done or said get reactions from literally all over the world. I had coaches, teachers, military leaders reach out to me because of that article. And I was floored by that. And it was Wendy's idea that I write the book. She said, you need to write a book about this and it needs to go beyond basketball. And so I did and had no idea how to do it, but learned about it and figured it out.
- [46:14]
Dan
Explain to me how she helped you write it or where it is that she knows you in these places that you don't even know and know yourself.
- [46:21]
Jay Bilas
She's an English or was an English major and started her career as a writer essentially not a writer like you, but she worked for companies and did, you know, did writing for companies, annual reports, all these different things. And so when I started writing the book, I had no experience in that. So I had no idea how to do it. I had no idea how to order things. So I did months of research and gathering the information I needed and interviews and all that stuff. And then when I sat down to write it, I wrote it. I can't remember how many months it took me, but I just went into my law office and I just. I treated it like a job. I wrote for like eight hours a day or whatever it was.
- [47:00]
Dan
I don't think you realize how disciplined you are. I think you're used to being so disciplined that you shrug your shoulders when I say you're a hard worker because you cannot be this excellent at this number of things, not applying yourself well.
- [47:14]
Jay Bilas
But I was boxed into that, you know, it was kind of one of those things where. So when the book idea was being sold, I was asked to go up to New York and meet with publishers. And so my agent got me a publishing agent. And this publishing agent had three or four, maybe five different publishers come in to sit down with me for meetings, kind of back to back to back. And I mistakenly thought I needed to go in there and sell them on the idea of this book so they might be interested enough to go forward with it. And I sat down for the first one they were pitching me and I'm like, what? They're making offers? And by the time after I did the four or five, whatever, it was different things. I hop in the car to go back to the airport and my phone rings and said, all right, here are the offers. You need to choose which one. And I'm like, you're kidding me. I had no clue. But once I accepted the offer from Penguin, it came down to Penguin and Amazon. Amazon was paying more money, but it wasn't going to be a book I could hold in my hands. It was going to be an ebook type deal. And I was like, all right, what's more important, money or the book? And I went with. For some reason, I wanted to hold in my hand old school. I don't know why.
- [48:32]
Dan
You're 60. That's right.
- [48:33]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. It took less money. So then when I was locked into it, I was like, I have to do this. Like, this isn't an idea anymore. This is an obligation.
- [48:43]
Dan
Because of the feedback? Because of the feedback you were getting or just because the deal is now signed?
- [48:48]
Jay Bilas
Cause I signed a contract. Like, I'm obligated to do this.
- [48:51]
Dan
You don't sign a contract without being obligated to do it. There's no backing out now.
- [48:55]
Jay Bilas
And what I didn't realize this was really. This is where Wendy's way of doing things was really illuminated to me. So my wife's an artist, and she's very thoughtful in what she paints. And from time to time, she would have an unfinished painting. She just put it on the wall in the house. And to me, I'm like, what are you doing? You know, that's not done. And so I'd say, when are you gonna finish that? And she'd say, I'll get around to it. She just wanted to leave it alone. And she'd walk by it, take a look at it, and then she'd go back to it later on and she'd have a different perspective on it.
- [49:29]
Dan
You don't even understand that.
- [49:30]
Jay Bilas
No clue.
- [49:31]
Dan
You've gotta complete. You have to complete the task.
- [49:34]
Jay Bilas
No clue.
- [49:34]
Dan
Whatever the task is, it' it must be completed, right?
- [49:37]
Jay Bilas
So this one I think you'll understand better than almost anybody. So I, not knowing the book process, I finish the manuscript, I send it in, right to the publisher. And I thought, this is great. I'm done, and the weight's lifted. I'm done. And I moved on with my life. Like, they'll edit it. I'm done. Then 45, 50 days later, they send it back to me. Redlined all the notes. They hadn't accepted it yet. And I finally realized, wait a minute. So I dug back into it, and the whole thing was new. And I thought, wait a minute, this is better over here. And all of a sudden, I've got a completely different new perspective on it. And I was so into the weeds on it when I was working on it that I couldn't really see what it should be. Then I leave it alone for 45, 50 days, whatever it was, before I get it back. And it was a completely new project to me. And so not only did I do some of the things they suggested, but I did a whole bunch of other stuff.
- [50:39]
Dan
They made it better. They made you make it better?
- [50:41]
Jay Bilas
Well, yeah, like, just putting it away and sort of my wife's way of, like, this doesn't. There's no time limit on this. Like, I'm going to do it when I feel like doing it. And you can't do that with everything, obviously. But that was really helpful and it caused me to take. Since then, I'm taking a step back a little bit more and not as focused on, all right, let's get this done now. Let's get this done. Take a step back and kind of think about it a little bit more, and it'll be better if I do it that way. That's been helpful, and that's sort of her way of seeing the bigger picture. Close your eyes, exhale, Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.
- [51:33]
Dan
And breathe.
- [51:34]
Jay Bilas
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contact. You saw the game winning play once, but have to replay it three times on the way back to the hotel. Because some moments don't end at the buzzer. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western, book direct and save@bestwestern.com
- [52:06]
Dan
what did you learn about toughness when you started doing reporting and research? It goes from an article to now becoming a life project. Right? Like, I mean, it's not. Writing a book is hard and it takes a lot of time. So what did you learn that you didn't know from the time that you wrote the article? That the feedback helped you learn the
- [52:26]
Jay Bilas
perspective of others on what toughness meant? That I think when I was a kid and coming up, you heard it from coaches, but it was never really defined. It was sort of what I learned kind of through osmosis. Okay, this is getting rewarded for being tough, but it was really more about your everyday life and what it means that I remember Bob Knight saying something to me about. And it resonated with me about what I said before when my wife said, you know, when you say yes to somebody else, you're saying no to your family. And Knight said something. He says, you know, no is a word that's used by tough people. And, you know, I really thought about that, that I don't say no very often. My first instinct is to say yes. Somebody says, hey, will you do this? Sure. And then I have to go and fix all the things that saying yes to that person caused issues for me instead of just saying no. My priorities over here, that's not my priority. So no. And so that was helpful. The project helped me kind of define what it was for me in my life. And to the extent it may have been helpful to somebody else, the best part of the book for me wasn't, you know, it was really weird for me having a book with your picture on it with the word toughness over it, because I don't think I was the toughest player or anything like that that should have been done by a military person or a nurse or doctor, somebody who does really tough things. But you know, it was the best part of it was hearing from coaches, teachers that use the book with their team or their class. And it started a conversation about what was important to them. Like I got all these letters from teams and all that. Like we use this or get a letter from a kid who couldn't make his high school team, tried two or three times, read the book and then did all these things and made his high school team. That was pretty cool. I really enjoyed that. But look, this has been your life and you know this one better than I do. You have a successful book. And I was lucky that book was successful, or at least they thought it was. They want me to write another one right away and I'm like, I don't want to go through that again. And one, I didn't have anything that I felt that deeply to dive into that again. But writing a book sucks. Yeah, it's hard. And like, I don't know, how do you do that?
- [54:59]
Dan
Well, I haven't done it well. It's my greatest demon. Like I write the idea of writing, I mean, writing an article is lonely enough. A book is 150 articles strung together. So, like, it's not that you did it in your spare time or that you did it off to the side suggests to me that you enjoy things that have a degree of difficulty, especially if you're working from a place of inspiration. If it's you yelling at your television about something, that's a decent place to start on any creative endeavor. But I don't know what you've learned from your wife and your daughter who are artists about creativity because you work very creatively within our space. But I don't know, a book seems to be the toughest creative challenge I could imagine you partaking in. Although ballroom dancing might have been one of them. Once upon a time.
- [55:51]
Jay Bilas
That was brutal.
- [55:53]
Dan
Were you good at it?
- [55:54]
Jay Bilas
I was pretty good. My mom wanted me to be a cultured person. She was worried that because of somehow because of our background, that I wouldn't be cultured. And so I say she encouraged me to be kind. She forced me to do a lot of things. One of them was I had to take ballroom dance when I was a kid. And so there was an instructor. She was a former like, you know, high level ballroom dancer, older lady named Margaret Michael. And so I went, I didn't tell any of my friends I was doing this like I wanted nobody to know. And so I went to this thing and I would take these classes, and then we went to competitions. There were ballroom dancing competitions, and my partner was an older girl, and that was kind of fun. But we won some of these competitions, so I got trophies for it. I never put them out with my other trophies. I kept them in a closet somewhere because I didn't want anybody to know. But the best thing, it turns out, that my mom had me do was she. She sort of made. Encouraged me. She made me take speech and debate courses when I was, you know, in junior high school.
- [57:01]
Dan
Why do you keep doing encourage? It doesn't sound like it was encouraged.
- [57:04]
Jay Bilas
It was forced. Yeah, she forced me to do it.
- [57:06]
Dan
You're just being. You're just being nice.
- [57:08]
Jay Bilas
I'm being nice, yeah. But, you know, encourage it. You know, it's probably the same thing, but I felt like I was forced. And so when I started doing that, I met a teacher at my school named Billy Crane. And, you know, he was a drama. Drama type teacher and taught speech and debate and drama and. Very effeminate gentleman. Couldn't have. And he's probably the most influential person in my life outside of family or my coaches, like Coach K, something like that. It would be Mr. Kramer. And Lucky for me, when I went to high school, he got a job at my high school. And so I wound up having him for like, six straight years. And he got me into. We went to forensics competitions. So I had to do, like, these impromptu competitions, extemporaneous speaking competitions, all these speech and debate things where I had to stand in front by myself in front of a panel of judges. Sometimes they would give you a topic and you'd have five minutes to get your thoughts together. Other times they'd give it to you and you had to start. And nothing that I've ever done in my life has been that frightening. And if I could handle that, you know, little red light going on on a TV camera is no big deal. And in fact, arguing in front of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals or going up in front of a judge in a motion hearing was nowhere near as frightening as that was. So that was really helpful to me, and it made me more confident, more secure in my ability to handle myself.
- [58:49]
Dan
It's probably the first time you felt confidence, real confidence about your intellect. Right. Getting good at that or overcoming that fear because you're somebody who comes off as very confident about how smart he is.
- [59:01]
Jay Bilas
When I started, it wasn't necessarily about me. It was more like I Wanted to do well and I wanted to rise up just like anybody else would. But I always remembered the idea that when I was in college and our games were on tv, my parents kept the tapes of those games so they would record them. Back then, it was VCR days, so they recorded them on a vcr. And God forbid the announcer made a mistake about me. My mom was like, how could he say that? So I remembered that. And I thought when I first started, there were some games I was doing where the that game might have been the only time that team was on TV that year, or at least on espn. So I felt obligated to know everything I could know and be able to present it like it was the NCAA championship game because that was meaningful to those players and to their families. And, you know, I wanted to make it important. And if it's important to them, it better be important to me. And that was, I think that was helpful to me in rising up. And, you know, I got lucky too. Like the first game I had, there was a situation at the end of the game and last second play and the play by play guy says, jay, what's going to happen? They're like, I don't know. But I said, I said, I said, this guy is in all likelihood this guy is going to get the shot. But it's not the shot that can beat UNC Greensboro. It's gonna be the offensive rebound. So your first shot defense has to be really good, but you'd better pay attention to that.
- [60:35]
Dan
It happened exactly like that.
- [60:37]
Jay Bilas
He missed the shot and somebody tipped it in. And so my bosses, I think, well, this guy's not an idiot. But I got lucky. Like it could have been a 20 point blowout and nobody would have ever. That never would have been a resonating moment. So there's luck involved in this.
- [60:52]
Dan
I wanted to circle back around on Mr. Kramer, but before I do that, does this entire inform the way that you cover this kindness you speak of and the fact that you're putting out history that a family will remember about in the way that you're announcing it? I cannot imagine that Jay Bilis, who is taking that kind of kindness to his approach or care with that approach, loves the way sports are covered these days. Everywhere where it's criticism, it's blame, it's scathing, it's hot takes. I can't imagine that the modern media sort of aligns with where you are philosophically modern sports media coverage.
- [61:29]
Jay Bilas
That's a good question. I know it's substantially different because games there Weren't as many games on television back then. And there's so much more data now. You know, 30 years ago, we didn't have all these analytics to tell the average Joe exactly how good this team is defensively. People still might not know why, but they can say, okay, Miami's ranked 110th in defense. They can't guard anybody. They don't know why. So you're trying to help them with the why. But you try to maintain a balance of, you know, in basketball. I think football, the football culture has really affected basketball, that, you know, you lose a game and everything's dissected. You know, college football team loses a game, are they out of the playoff? They're done. Why? You know, who's. Like, you're. Who's to blame Basketball now. You know, teams lose basketball games. There hasn't been an undefeated champion since 1976. They're basketball games. You know, you play one game on. On Saturday, you got another one on Monday, and you got to make that turnaround. Football has the luxury of a week in between to prepare. Basketball doesn't get that. So you're going to have losses and some things that seem inexplicable, but that's part of the game. So I. I try to stay away from that, you know, hair on fire. You know, what do we do now? You know, you come.
- [62:48]
Dan
But how often when you're watching television are you discussed? And I'm not talking about espn. I'm talking about all coverage. I'm talking about social media being pervasive. I'm talking about what seems to me like a real. And the coverage to me feels generally crueler, more dehumanizing, and less about celebrating sports, which is what covering your Duke basketball team felt like, the celebration of sports to now something that's more poisoned, more contaminated.
- [63:19]
Jay Bilas
I don't know that it's changed all that much, except for the volume of it and the amount of it. So 30, 40 years ago, there was still the same questions being asked, but they were asked the next day in a newspaper, which got folded up and thrown away or lining the bottom of a cage or whatever you want. And there was talk radio, but the house that floated off into the ether. Now you got the social media. There's way more coverage. So the coverage is, what, from the 80s till now? A multiple of 10, maybe more. So you can't get away from the amount of it, even though they're kind of saying the same things. There is some more sensationalism maybe than there used to be.
- [64:03]
Dan
I Guess I'm attaching something to you that you're not doing, though. You're not looking. You're not generally disgusted by how much coarser coverage in general have become. And maybe in college basketball, not entirely. So I was talking about the more overarching thing of all of sports. I'm talking about argument, television. I'm talking about the things that get fed daily to just blame instead of celebration. We have to argue about something, and talking about how excellent people are is harder to do.
- [64:30]
Jay Bilas
It's harder to do, and there isn't the celebratory nature of it that there used to be. I'm not disgusted by it as much as I am. This is the way it is, and my disgust is not gonna change. Like, I had a really interesting experience over the last couple years. I was on the NCAA's competition committee for about almost 10 years. Jim Delaney, the commissioner of the Big Ten at the time, asked me to be on it. And it was about rules of play and basically officiating. So first it was called the men's basketball officiating committee, and then it morphed into competition committee because it sounded better. And so I got into the weeds on how the rules should. Should be, how the game should be officiated, things like that. So we made recommendations to the rules committee, all that stuff. And I. I was going to games, and now I'm. I'm watching officiating in addition to the game. And I cycled off the committee two years ago and give or take. And when I did, it was kind of like when I stopped being a lawyer, all of a sudden, it just, like, responsibility for officiating was off my table. And now I go to games and there's a bad call here. I'm like, so what? I don't care. Two years ago, I was like, that's a bad call that shouldn't have been called. You know, this, that, the other. I'm opining on officiating. And the reason was because I felt responsibility for it, and I don't feel responsibility for it anymore. And I don't feel responsibility for anything my colleagues say. And by that, I don't mean my colleagues at espn, but I mean my colleagues in the media. I don't feel any responsibility for it. I may like it or not like it, but I'm not bothered by it anymore. I was at first.
- [66:08]
Dan
You seem super responsible. I don't know that about you. I can't know that about you, but you seem like someone who has been largely responsible his entire adult life.
- [66:16]
Jay Bilas
I hope so. You know, I make stupid mistakes like everybody else, but I don't. I'm trying not to internalize stuff that I can't do anything about, and I'm getting better at it. That's been a challenge because I would go to say this isn't right. You know, I've railed on.
- [66:34]
Dan
Unfairness seems to bother you a great deal. And justice. In fact, when you speak out critically, it matters more because you don't do it that often and you seem to be righteous about your rage when you do.
- [66:44]
Jay Bilas
I hope so. But I hope I'm thoughtful and prepared when I do. Like the NCAA stuff has been a difficult balance because I've felt since I was in college and I was on an NCAA committee in college. So I was talking about this when I was in my early 20s. So I feel like I understand the system, both the way it works and the legal side of it. So on the athlete compensation side, I've been on this topic for a long time. I don't go to games. I don't go to a game and walk in the building and say how horribly unfair is. I go to enjoy the game and I'm able to separate the two. So when it's time to talk about basketball, I talk about basketball. Of all. When it's time to talk about policy, I talk about policy. And I feel like I'm informed and I'm using my good judgment as best I can. I've tried to make it about policy and not people because not everybody at the NCAA is stroking a hairless cat trying to control the world.
- [67:45]
Dan
Just many of them.
- [67:46]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, just some. They're, by and large, good people are trying to do the right thing but aren't doing the right thing. And there are a lot of bad rules and all that stuff. And I think you can see it changing now.
- [67:57]
Dan
Couple of questions to finish up with you. I wanted to circle back on Mr. Kramer. Why was he such an inspiration to you? The value of teachers and role models have been pretty important in your life. Why was Mr. Kramer so influential?
- [68:12]
Jay Bilas
He was so different and in such a different realm than I saw myself in. I didn't see myself as a drama type, you know, And I think back then, especially kids in high school are stereotyped. So, you know, you had the drama, drama nerds and the jocks. And where I went to high school, you know, anybody that had any association with the wacky weed or all that, we called them gels, you know, so everybody was in their clique and that he Got me out of my jock. Click.
- [68:45]
Dan
He gave you permission?
- [68:46]
Jay Bilas
A little bit, but I was still. I still kept it at a distance. So I did the speech and debate thing, but that was off campus, so my friends didn't see me do it. Just the people I was with that were on the forensics team or whatever, I feel like mean girls. And I was on the mathletes, but that's kind of what it was. And we had a thing my senior year. He came to me and said, you're gonna be the lead in the school play. And I'm like, no, I'm not. He's like, yes, you are. I'm the director. You're gonna be in the lead in play. And it was Lillian Hellman's watch on the Rhine. Kind of a heady thing for a bunch of 17 year olds to do. So we had these intense rehearsals for months before the play. And college coaches came to see the play. One of Coach K's assistants came to see it. And so we're in rehearsal one day and I missed a cue. Like I was probably screwing around backstage or something, not paying attention. And he jumped my ass, like no coach, you know, to that point had ever done. And he said. And he basically said, when you play in a basketball game, you've got somebody guarding you. You've got some guy as big as you trying to stop you from doing what you're trying to do. He said, says nobody stopped you. He said, you have an opponent. He says, nobody stopped you from hitting your cue. Nobody stopped you from being engaged in what you're doing right now. And he said something I've never forgotten. He said, don't be your own opponent. And I didn't get that all the time in class. I got that from him. And he was really supportive, had really high standards. So this. This play does well, right? I don't remember how long it ran for, four or five nights. And I won an award for it. I was named. I won the bank of America Best Actor award. I don't know from how far and wide it was, but I got this thing and it kind of embarrassed me. And I didn't feel right about it. So I told him, I'm not. I don't want this. I don't want to accept this. Cause so many of the other kids that they'd spent their whole lives doing that. That's what they wanted to be. And this basketball player just jumps in there. And now all of a sudden, you know. And maybe I was getting the award because people knew who I was from basketball, so I told him I wasn't going to take it. Right. So he says, you will accept this award and you will accept it with appropriate pride. Because I told him I'm not an actor. And he said, you're correct, you're not an actor. You're an award winning actor. That was pretty cool.
- [71:31]
Dan
He sort of taught you how to respect what you were doing, right?
- [71:34]
Jay Bilas
Yeah.
- [71:36]
Dan
Can you tell me where those ballroom trophies are now? Where the bank of America Actor of the year is. Like, where are these trophies now? Do you know where that.
- [71:45]
Jay Bilas
I still have the bank of America thing, but it was a certificate, so I have a dig. It's digitized, so I have a digital photo of it. All my trophies. My brother was a really talented athlete when he was younger. He's seven years older than me. So I grew up in a room that had all of his trophies in it, which made me like, go, okay, I want to have that many. So when I started Winham, he had well over a hundred. And I, I think I got even with him by the time I was a senior in high school. So I, I had gotten just as many. And it used to really piss me off. Like, I had my little league stuff when I was a kid and one of my mom's friends would walk by and they would marvel at my brother's side of the room. And then my side is like, you know, nothing. So I did that. But my mom, when Wendy and I moved to Charlotte, my mom boxed all that crap up and she sent it to me. And so it was boxes and boxes and boxes of these old trophies. Like, what am I gonna do with that crap? So we just kind of tossed it and there's nothing we could do with it. We were, you know, we were young.
- [72:47]
Dan
All of your childhood prides are gone. All of them.
- [72:50]
Jay Bilas
But even if I had them now,
- [72:51]
Dan
family heirlooms, the ballroom dancing trophies, I
- [72:54]
Jay Bilas
probably should have saved one of those. I think I saved like one or two of them that were good looking trophies. But other than that, I got rid of all that stuff. And maybe I shouldn't have. I should have just taken a picture of all of them together. But, you know, what would that have. You know, that would have been weird.
- [73:11]
Dan
What can you tell me about what you have done with your children that is either the same or different than what your parents did as it relates specifically to them now having what sounds like friendships with you, where they call you on your birthday cake, old fat bald guy, or whatever it is that they do to make sure that, you know that Jay Bilis isn't quite as up here as Jay Bilis might be perceived as on television.
- [73:41]
Jay Bilas
We had fun, so we're very irreverent. Like, I've got an irreverent sense of humor. I'm more likely to make fun of some. The people I'm closest with. We make fun of each other. If we're not making fun of you, you just join the group, and we don't know well enough to make fun of you. There's nothing sacred in our family. If you make a mistake, it's gonna be fodder for fun down the road. So my kids have really good senses of humor, and they're really good at giving it back. Like my wife and my daughter. When I'm doing a game, their favorite thing is to get on Twitter and look at the mean tweets about me. And they love it. And they'll even text me during a game going, look at this one, dad. Like, this guy's. You know. And I'm like, I'm busy.
- [74:30]
Dan
So the mean. The meanest things they can find on the Internet.
- [74:33]
Jay Bilas
They love it. Yeah, they love that stuff. Cause we don't. You know, we don't take ourselves too seriously. So if anything happens, like, we're. We love that stuff. But, you know, they're really supportive. Like, my daughter and my son are really supportive of one another. And they don't. You know, it's not like they talk every day, but they're friends in addition to brother, sister, and my daughter. I think my wife and daughter would probably say they're closer. And then they would say, well, you and Anthony. They tell me you and Anthony are closer. And I don't know why it shakes out that way or why people feel that way, but our daughter is very forthcoming. She tells us every detail. Not every detail, but things that are going on with her. There's meat on the bone. My son's still a little more. How you doing? Good. How about you? He's not as. But you. You get into it with him, and then he'll tell you most everything.
- [75:29]
Dan
But never more united than they are in mocking dad.
- [75:32]
Jay Bilas
Yeah, that's. Everybody's united there. It's three against one all the time.
- [75:37]
Dan
You're held in the lowest esteem in your family by a lot.
- [75:43]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And my flaws are pointed out constantly. Like, I've got a lot of flaws, but one of the worst ones is when I talk on the telephone, my cell phone, I get louder than when I talk normally. And they Go, Dad, There's a microphone in that phone. You don't have to yell into the phone. And I do it all the time. I can't stop it. And I don't know. I should be smarter than that. But I've never figured it out. It's like I feel like I'm talking into a soup can with a string attached to it. And I got to talk louder so the string. Vibrant, vibrant. It's so stupid. And I've got a lot of those things where they call me out all
- [76:26]
Dan
the time, but the birthday greetings have what? Old, bald, fat fuck.
- [76:31]
Jay Bilas
Yeah. So my birthday is December 24th, so most of my birthday stuff is just the family, which is great. And I like. My favorite birthday cake is just the grocery store birthday cake. We got a place called Harris Teeter, and I would rather have it from there than have some high end kind of fancy cake. So my wife brings home one of those cakes and I can't remember what I was doing. But she also bought these kind of candy letters to write, Happy birthday, dad, or Happy Birthday, Jay, or whatever. And as soon as the kids saw that, they were both like, oh, we can do better than Happy birthday. So they laid all these things out and it came up with happy birthday, you fat fuck. And then it said. And they only had, like. It's said fuck. And then they had Y O O. And that was the end of it.
- [77:23]
Dan
And.
- [77:24]
Jay Bilas
And I. That was my. That's the favorite cake I've ever gotten. Because all I did was laugh. And then my son got me a bottle of wine, a really nice bottle of wine. But he had it. He had the wine bottle done up. I don't know where he got it, but the. The name of the wine was Bald. And apparently the company he had it done by actually called him and said. Said, are you sure this is what you want? He goes, yep, that's it.
- [77:49]
Dan
That sounds like a cool relationship to have in adulthood with your kids, though, where you're friends and you've lived an entire life of love and wisdom where you can just appreciate them most for who they are.
- [78:02]
Jay Bilas
Oh, yeah, like, and we're really proud of them, but they're fun, you know, whatever they're going through and doing, hopefully we're supportive of them. I think we are. Wendy definitely is, but hopefully we're there all the time if they need it. But, you know, Wendy definitely is. She definitely is. But whatever their path is, whatever their dream is, we want them to go get it. You know, go do whatever you want to do. Like, I don't. I'm not living your life. You are. So whatever you want to do, you don't have to look behind you and wonder if we approve. We approve. And when. You know, it's funny, like, Wendy and I have talked about this when we kind of drop them off at school. I think I wrote a letter to my daughter and told her a couple things, but told her, your safety is now your business. It's always been ours, and we're still there to help. But I can't make your safety decisions for you. If you decide something while you're at school, that's on you. You're going to have to make those decisions for yourself. But we've always felt like, okay, they're adults now and their decisions are theirs. We can help. So if they ever need help or guidance, whatever, we'll tell them what we think. But it's your decision. And if they, you know, if they were to make a decision we didn't agree with, we may tell them what we think. I don't think we would hold back there, but Wendy and I have talked about this. My perspective is, if we have a problem with the decision, they may. We're the ones that raised them. So then we need to look at, you know, how did they make that decision? We gave them the foundation there.
- [79:47]
Dan
Wasn't that freedom with your parents, though, right? It wasn't. You made it encouraged, but you were forced into certain things.
- [79:52]
Jay Bilas
Well, when I was a kid, yeah, they were forced into stuff, too. There were certain things they didn't have any choice in when they were growing up. But, yeah, I think I felt more of an obligation. I can't speak to how obligated my kids feel to what we think. I don't know that. I don't feel like they. I don't believe they think that we're, you know, kind of trying to pull strings on them. I hope they don't. I felt a little bit of obligation to do what my parents felt was the right thing. I don't think I would have gone to law school had they not been so adamant that I go. I'm really glad that I did. I would have regretted it, knowing what I know now, if I didn't follow sort of that. That obligation. But it was different. At least it felt different. I think I was capable. I think they allowed me to make my own decisions. But they pulled more strings than we pulled.
- [80:50]
Dan
You are awed by the mother Wendy is? Yes.
- [80:53]
Jay Bilas
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's. I couldn't have imagined that, you know, that every decision she made, every, everything she was engaged in, everything. And they would not have had the opportunities they had if I were in charge. She was on top of everything. And not in a negative way, in a positive way. She wanted to know, what does this take? What is it gonna take to get it? You know, she was so dialed into the college thing and I would not want to be a kid right now. The college decision is awful for these young people. Awful. I would not want to deal with that. But she helped them navigate it. She directed them in the right places and made sure that they had what they needed to be where they wanted to be. But at the same time, we were trying to let them know that, do this, try to go where you want, but don't worry about this. I think I even showed my son at one point, like these are where the CEOs of some of the top companies went to college. Like, show me the pattern. It doesn't matter. Chase after what you want, but if it falls short or this place doesn't want you or whatever, who cares? It's not that big of a deal. And so my role was to kind of say, not that big of a deal, don't worry about it, like everything's gonna be fine.
- [82:21]
Dan
But your life wasn't like that. Your childhood had pressures in it, right? You had to be, you had to strive, succeed. There has to be something inside you that makes you experience loss. Stress as not law stress. When eight years of ambition and getting ahead is stressful and to only see it in retrospect suggests that you weren't very aware while you were doing it.
- [82:43]
Jay Bilas
I definitely wasn't aware. So what? My life was way easier than my kids lives when it came to those kind of things. Like I got good at basketball. By the time I was a sophomore in high school, I knew I was going to go to college on a scholarship. So I wasn't pining to go somewhere. I was being begged to come play at this school or that school. So I felt like I get to choose. That was not the experience of my kids. They were, you know, they felt like, well, I need to hustle to get here, I need to do this to get there. I never felt that. And it was a, what a privilege for me, you know, to have that in my back pocket. And you know, my mom, my mom wanted me to go to Stanford. And I think part of it was she just wanted to have a kid that went to Stanford. Growing up in California, Stanford was like this, you know, unattainable thing. And I didn't want to go to Stanford. I mean, you know, back then, you know, Stanford wasn't very good in basketball. I wanted no part of that. But she made me visit there. I visited Stanford. I had no, no interest in going there. And then my daughter applied to Stanford. I was not. And I got admitted to Stanford. I wasn't the student my daughter was. And then Stanford's gotten even harder to get into, and she's like 10 times a student I was. And she got wait listed at Stanford. And I'm looking at that going. I mean, my life was a magic carpet ride going to college. My kids, that was, they had it harder and they have it harder with social media. They didn't have as much like, they didn't have Instagram or all that when they were coming out of high school, but I didn't have to navigate any of that crap. Like, I didn't, I didn't realize, like, how good it was back then. Relative to what? The kids. There's way more stress now on a kid than there was when we were kids, in my view.
- [84:37]
Dan
I appreciate your time. I appreciate that you spent so much time with us. And I also, if I haven't said it enough, deep admiration for what a shining light you are in how thorough you are and how long you have been a very strong voice on behalf of a sport that is both advocacy and eloquence. So thank you for spending this time.
- [84:57]
Jay Bilas
You're way too kind. And I feel the same way about you. You've been the standard for me as to how to handle a career, and I've been a big fan of yours
- [85:08]
Dan
for a long time. Oh, thank you. I did not know that.
- [85:09]
Jay Bilas
Of course you knew that. I keep coming on your show.
- [85:12]
Dan
Well, you do keep coming back on your show. I didn't realize on the show. I didn't realize that was the highest compliment, that the highest compliment you give is return visits.
- [85:19]
Jay Bilas
No, it's not. I don't want to make it sound like that, but, but I, I, I enjoy the authenticity of your show and always had from the time you're on espn, it's not only entertaining, it's informative. And you can tell, like, when I, when I go on your show, when I go on other shows, I know what's coming. You know you're gonna be asked about this, asked about that, same as anything else. For me, it was like you and Tony Kornheiser were the shows that I would go on, and I didn't know what was gonna happen. And it was like I enjoyed going on because it was gonna be fun for me and I was gonna get to experience you. And same thing with Tony. Maybe it's your, you know, the fact that you guys are real journalists. Like now people who get on TV get to call themselves journalists. You guys are journalists. You know, like you hoofed it back in the day where you had to go in anonymity and write something. And whenever I see on 30 for 30, like on the University of Miami, you know, you hear all this stuff and then you get your perspective, you go, that's what happened. Like that nailed it. And I always remember you saying about the ncaa, but like they're mall cops. And I was like, God, I wish I had said that. He's right. That was perfect.
- [86:32]
Dan
Jay, it was good seeing you.
- [86:34]
Jay Bilas
Great seeing you. You.