The Best of SBS: Napheesa Collier & Nancy Lieberman

Summary

The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz

Best of SBS: Napheesa Collier & Nancy Lieberman

Date: October 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

Broadcast from the Elser Hotel in Downtown Miami, this special “Best of South Beach Sessions” episode features in-depth and candid interviews with two trailblazers in women’s basketball: Hall of Famer Nancy Lieberman and WNBA All-Star Napheesa Collier. Hosted by Dan Le Batard and Stugotz, with Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan taking part in the interviews, the conversations traverse personal histories, leadership, fighting for opportunity, mentorship, overcoming doubt, and building legacies both on and off the court.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nancy Lieberman: A Lifetime of Trailblazing (00:57 – 26:01)

On Strength, Boundaries, and Early Mentors

• Nancy reflects on how defining her own boundaries, rather than quantifying toughness, shaped her life and career.
• Key influencer: Legendary journalist Dick Schaap, who mentored her, protected her, and introduced her to an array of important figures—including Muhammad Ali.
  • “I can't tell you why. Like, I want to do a book that says, ‘How do you know dot, dot, dot? How do you know Dick Schapp? How do you know Muhammad Ali?’” — Nancy Lieberman (02:02)

The Muhammad Ali Connection (04:24 – 09:53)

• Nancy tells her moving story of meeting Muhammad Ali as a young athlete, describing the pivotal role Ali played in mentoring her on issues of racism, philanthropy, humility, and self-worth.
  • “He taught me to respect everybody but fear nobody. He says, ‘You're going to encounter some hard times. Humility is confidence, arrogance is not.’” — Nancy Lieberman (07:41)
• Their friendship lasted 37 years, with Ali regularly checking in on her throughout different stages of her life.

Comebacks and Motherhood (08:53 – 12:09)

• Details coming out of retirement multiple times—first for the challenge of playing with men, and later so her son could see her play.
• Discussion of her role as a pioneering woman in male-dominated leagues and balancing family, especially as she became her mother’s caretaker in her mother’s later years.
  • “I became my mother's mother because she had nothing. She's trying to survive, and sports was my vehicle.” — Nancy Lieberman (11:03)

Breaking Barriers in Coaching (12:09 – 15:59)

• Nancy describes her time as the Sacramento Kings’ assistant coach—one of the first women in the NBA—her love for that job, and her difficult decision to leave when her mom became ill, emphasizing her sense of responsibility for the generations of women coming behind her.
  • “We can’t have one-offs for optics. Growth is growth, and we have to be given opportunity and chance.” — Nancy Lieberman (13:16)

Coaching in the Big3 League with Ice Cube

• A cold call from Ice Cube led to Nancy becoming the first female head coach in a men’s pro league. Ice Cube emphasized equality, offering her the same pay as male coaches.
  • “He celebrates me, doesn’t tolerate me... You don’t know how good somebody can be if you don’t give them a chance.” — Nancy Lieberman (17:09)

Being Fluent – and Protective – in Black Culture (18:20 – 21:33)

• Nancy shares how basketball granted her deep connections and responsibilities in Black communities, underlining her protective instincts and desire to bust stereotypes about athletes as fathers and men.
  • “There are good men... The myth that black, Latino, any of these different athletes, they’re not good fathers. They are hella great fathers.” — Nancy Lieberman (19:42)

On Women’s Basketball’s Recent Explosion and Next Generation (21:33 – 26:01)

• Nancy discusses her relationships with younger stars like Caitlin Clark, the evolution of the women’s game, and the importance of “paid pioneers” in the NIL era.
  • “Thank you for what you’re doing for women’s sports. I was an unpaid pioneer, y’all. With NILs, you’re paid pioneers.” — Nancy Lieberman (23:41)
• Touches on defending young players like Caitlin Clark in some generational disputes (e.g. with Sheryl Swoopes), emphasizing her role as a celebrator and protector of newer generations.

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2. Napheesa Collier: Building Her Own Legacy (28:27 – 59:08)

Unrivaled: Creating Opportunity for Women Athletes (28:34 – 30:48)

• Collier explains how she and Breanna Stewart co-founded “Unrivaled,” a new league designed so women athletes can earn lucrative salaries stateside, forge generational wealth, and control their branding rather than going overseas.
  • “The explosion that is happening in women’s sports... it feels like everyone is capitalizing off of that except for the people, the women who are playing.” — Napheesa Collier (29:10)
• Notes the importance of amenities that promote a professional experience: childcare centers, top-tier training and recovery facilities, “nice to haves” like makeup and esthetician rooms, and meaningful salaries (38:04).

Discovering Talent and Leadership (30:48 – 34:35)

• Received her first college scholarship in 8th grade, nearly signed on the spot until her dad convinced her to wait.
• Leadership journey: Once a reluctant, quiet leader, she intentionally grew into her vocal role, especially on the Minnesota Lynx under Sylvia Fowles’s mentorship.
  • “I was really uncomfortable with confrontation... I started building the vocal side of it more when I was in Minnesota.” — Napheesa Collier (32:17)

The Work of Speaking as a Leader (34:48 – 37:17)

• Describes the challenge and effort of becoming more assertive and audible—how she learned to change her voice’s pitch and projection to communicate on the court.
  • “Growing up, I would say I was pretty shy... in college... it was exhausting for me to talk. Now, it’s so natural.” — Napheesa Collier (35:49)

Balancing Player and Executive Roles

• Collier navigates the demands of being both a top athlete and a co-league founder, plus working with her husband/business partner Alex, who helped her develop professionally and personally.
  • “I defer to him on the business side... he defers to me on the player experience side, because I know that.” — Napheesa Collier (40:13)

Personal Journey in the Game (44:22 – 45:53)

• Never set out to be a pro basketball player—aspirations evolved step by step, from earning a college scholarship to embracing professional life as it came.

Overcoming Doubt and the Power of Mental Strength (45:53 – 50:58)

• Collier describes her battles with doubt—preseason slumps, adjusting to the WNBA—but values her ability to recognize and address mental struggles.
  • “That’s the feeling I don’t like: not being confident in what you’re doing. It makes you second guess everything.” — Napheesa Collier (46:03)
• Argues that basketball (and elite performance) is 80% mental, outperforming even more physically gifted athletes with her mentality.
  • “I believe I’m the best when I’m out there... Sports is 80, 20 mental and physical.” — Napheesa Collier (49:49)

On Anger as Motivation and Handling Defeat (52:01 – 54:59)

• After a painful finals loss, Collier channelled anger into focus and self-betterment.
  • “I play better when I’m mad, because it makes me really focused.” — Napheesa Collier (54:12)
• Uses stoicism on court to avoid showing opponents when she’s angered but uses it as internal fuel.

The Joy of Building Community & Legacy (55:01 – 57:42)

• The deep camaraderie among her Unrivaled team reminds her of college—small rosters create a singular bond.
• Takes immense pride in creating opportunities for women athletes, hoping true fulfillment will come when pay and conditions for female players across the board improve.
  • “I think I’ll feel fulfilled when we see those contracts change and Unrivaled keeps going... changing what it means to be a woman’s athlete.” — Napheesa Collier (57:07)

Drive for Excellence: Its Roots and Risks (57:42 – end)

• Collier is hard on herself—sees it as an essential driver for greatness, while openly acknowledging the “toxic” side of perpetual self-criticism.
  • “If you’re so forgiving with yourself, how are you going to push yourself to be better?” — Napheesa Collier (58:03)
• Her internal motivation comes from always wanting to recapture the feeling of being the best, even as competition stiffens.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mentorship and resilience:
  "He taught me to respect everybody but fear nobody... Humility is confidence, arrogance is not." — Nancy Lieberman, on Muhammad Ali (07:41)
• On opportunity and equality:
  “He celebrates me, doesn’t tolerate me... You don’t know how good somebody can be if you don’t give them a chance.” — Nancy Lieberman, on Ice Cube and the Big3 (17:09)
• On the rise of women’s sports:
  “I was an unpaid pioneer, y’all. With NILs, you’re paid pioneers. And I’m super happy for you.” — Nancy Lieberman (23:41)
• On controlling your own narrative:
  “The explosion that is happening in women’s sports... it feels like everyone is capitalizing off of that except for the women who are playing.” — Napheesa Collier (29:10)
• On mental strength:
  “Sports is 80, 20 mental and physical.” — Napheesa Collier (49:49)
• On turning anger into fuel:
  “I play better when I’m mad, because it makes me really focused.” — Napheesa Collier (54:12)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:57] — Nancy Lieberman interview begins: background, mentors, toughness.
• [04:24] — Meeting Muhammad Ali; lessons on race and character.
• [08:53] — Comebacks, motherhood, and forging leadership.
• [12:09] — Breaking barriers in coaching; sacrifice and responsibility.
• [15:59] — The Ice Cube call; coaching the Big3.
• [18:20] — The influence of basketball; integration, fluency, and protection.
• [21:33] — Women’s basketball’s boom: role as mentor for stars like Caitlin Clark.
• [28:27] — Napheesa Collier interview begins.
• [29:24] — The creation and purpose of “Unrivaled.”
• [32:17] — Leadership growth; overcoming discomfort with confrontation.
• [34:48] — The vocal work of leadership.
• [38:04] — Building the Unrivaled league experience.
• [40:13] — Balancing player, executive, and partnership roles.
• [45:08] — Evolving ambitions, falling into basketball stardom.
• [45:53] — Overcoming doubt, stress, and the value of mental resilience.
• [52:01] — Coping with defeat; using anger as a motivation.
• [55:01] — Building community on a small team.
• [57:07] — Fulfillment through changing the future for women athletes.
• [58:03] — Self-criticism and the hunger for greatness.

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Tone and Feel

The conversations are warm, funny, and occasionally raw, honoring the remarkable journeys both women have taken—replete with heartfelt reminiscence, sharp wit, and clear-eyed advocacy for progress and equality. Nancy Lieberman’s boldness and Collier’s drive shine through, offering listeners both inspiration and insight into what it takes to change the game, both on and off the court.

Transcript

[Napheesa Collier]

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[Bill Simmons]

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[Chris Ryan]

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[Napheesa Collier]

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[Napheesa Collier]

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[Nancy Lieberman]

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[Napheesa Collier]

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[Napheesa Collier]

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[Chris Ryan]

Surely in the history of south beach sessions, we have never had anyone tougher than this human being right here. Nancy Lieberman, two time Olympian, two time.

[Bill Simmons]

Hall of Famer, Big three coach, champion, and a pioneer at Trailblazer.

[Chris Ryan]

Is this how you became tough, though?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, obviously, basketball has something to do.

[Chris Ryan]

With it, but where are the places.

[Bill Simmons]

Where you can say no? That's what made me strong. Those are the things that made me who I am.

[Nancy Lieberman]

I don't know if I can define strong, but I can define what was acceptable to me and what was not acceptable to me. And I knew I am not going to live this life. This is not how I'm going to live. I don't know how I'm going to get from here to here, but I think sports is going to do this for me. And as one thing, playing in the Olympics in high school or then getting a college scholarship, player of the year in college basketball. And then, you know, like the, you know, the Dick Shapps taking me under his wing and coming to Old Dominion and making sure that he had tabs on me. I'd come home, he'd say, you're gonna come. We're gonna. This is what we're gonna do. Jeremy Shapp, right on this knee at lunch. A year old, two years old. Dick was very instrumental in just making sure that I was protected. We're learning. And he would introduce me to so many people. He's like, you need to do this and you need to come to this event. And again, I don't have. I can't tell you why. Like, I want to do a book that says, how do you know dot, dot, dot? How do you know Dick Schapp? How do you know Muhammad Ali? How are you friends with Kevin Costner? How are you friends with Warren Buffett? How are you friends with Ice Cube? I don't have a clinical reason. I don't even know how I'm here with you and I'm a fan of what you've done and what you've done with Poppy and to make me laugh or just how you were with your family was very impactful to me. And I get a chance to tell you this in real time, like right now.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the people that you mentioned, though, so many of the men that you mentioned, are obviously gravitating toward a place where commonalities exist on the chasing of excellence. Like they're. They have at least some sort of.

[Chris Ryan]

Dick Schapp.

[Bill Simmons]

When you're talking about Dick Schapp, he's.

[Chris Ryan]

Got some knowledge of what it's taken to be you. The difficulties, the impediments, the obstacles.

[Bill Simmons]

Just he's got this much knowledge, but he's got such knowledge. So I imagine that that's a place where you connect with all of these people is respect.

[Nancy Lieberman]

I hope so, and I think so. And, you know, some of the people that got to know me, and he got to know me because he interviewed me so many times. He was down at Old Dominion so many times. And I think he got to see probably that I was hiding behind being Nancy Lieberman. And I would never really open up as you and I are talking. This conversation would have not happened.

[Bill Simmons]

The story protects you, though. I can imagine that you've developed some armor over the years and had to, in order to tell the story in a way that is palatable, inspirational, but not too vulnerable, because there must have been a whole lot of garbage inside of the dysfunction.

[Nancy Lieberman]

Yes, you're spot on. So we win the national championship. I'm player of the year in college basketball. I'm asked to come December of 79. This is the turning point for me. Come to the New York Stock Exchange to do an appearance for the Olympic Committee, a fundraiser. Gives me a chance to go home, be with my mom, with my best friend growing up, going up the escalator, and I look at the guy and I go, yo, who's the other athlete? You know, kind of that bravado. Who's the other athlete with me? And he says, yeah, we're going in the green room. Green room. I said, well, who's the other athlete? And we get to the top. He goes, oh, yeah, it's you and Muhammad Ali. And I'm like, he's here. Muhammad Ali is here. I'm like, 21 years old. And the door opened, no joke. And it was like that. Oprah, huh? And the Glo. And he's. I was hyperventilating. So on the 76 Olympic team, there was, you know, Sugar Ray Leonard. There were all these different boxers, and I love boxing. And Howard Davis, who won a gold medal, and he was from Queens And I saw Howard, and I beeline to Howard. And my mother goes up to Ali and puts her arms around and goes, Mr. Mohammed, I'm Renee Lieberman from Queens. And my daughter. My daughter is the greatest of all times. And Ali looks at her and I'll show you the picture. I have it in my phone. And he goes, listen, there's only one greatest of all times, and it's me. And my mom goes, yeah, no, I know you're good, but my daughter. So he gives me this. It's like you and I right here. And I'm, like, looking down and I'm telling you I couldn't breathe. And he goes, you, mom says you're good. And I go, no, Mr. Muhammad, I'm the greatest of all times. And Mr. Ali, like, I beat people up all the time, like, every day. And he looked at me and he says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I said, yeah, but they irritate me and they bother me. He says, I'm going to ask you to stop hitting people. I'm like, you hit people? He goes, I get paid to hit people. Interestingly, he's taking my information in like you are. And when it was all said and done, he says, can you come back to the Plaza where he was staying? And we went up in his suite, and we were there for four hours. He's teaching me about racism. He's teaching me about what hurts black America. The color of their skin or people who are not, by and large, white. And he taught me about philanthropy. And he looks at me and he goes, nancy, you're going to shake up the world. You're going to change the world. And I'm like, I have a game on Tuesday. Like, I'm not understanding what he's saying to me. And then he says, God made you special. And, Dan, the thing that connected me for Ollie for 37 years was my answer. You know, God, too. That is so cool. Like, what is he like? Have you spent time with him? And he looked at my mother and goes, I'm going to need your land number. I'm going to need your physical address, because I'm not letting her out there without me. And he would call me in college. He would check in on me. He was trying to come see me play. But the was so difficult. Every step of my life, he was there, and he would just check in on me, and I couldn't believe it. And the things he taught me. He taught me to respect everybody but fear nobody. He says, you're Going to encounter some hard times. Humility is confidence, arrogance is not. And I'd go, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. It ain't bragging if you're good, you know. And I would. We had this fun kind of back and forth with each other as I got older and I came out of retirement, like, three times. I'd sit at the house with him, and I'm like, you know, I've come out of retirement more than you. And he gave me the lips.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, but wait a minute. You came out of retirement at 50.

[Chris Ryan]

You came out of retirement because you wanted your son to watch you play at 39.

[Bill Simmons]

And then the other time, it's just hard to let go. What was the age of the other time that you came out of retirement?

[Nancy Lieberman]

Well, I basically retired after the wbl, the first women's league, folded. There was no league for me to play in. And then I got asked to play in the usbl, you know, six years later, which is the men's league equivalent, let's say, to the G league, then at 39, then at 50. And I would always just joke with him, but he'd give me that lip, and I'm like, stop it. Stop the lip thing, Lonnie. He's doing it again to me. And we would just. He would just laugh with me, and he was just always there. He came to my first game when I was coaching in the NBA, when we played the. The Phoenix Suns.

[Bill Simmons]

When you say that you were getting into fights all the time, it sounded like you just described that you were often winning them as. Well. It's not like you.

[Chris Ryan]

You were good with the fights like that.

[Bill Simmons]

You were good at fighting.

[Nancy Lieberman]

I was. I was. I practiced on my brother and, you know, Ali, you know, the jab and. And. And I became a little bit of a smartass because we'd fight. And I'm like, this is red. You might want to get a tissue. There's a lot of red here, too. I was surviving with my mouth and then trying to just, you know, let people know that you're not going to be able to do that to me or to hurt me.

[Bill Simmons]

When did you come by your mother's support? When did it arrive, if at all?

[Nancy Lieberman]

I think my mom, you know, after playing in the Olympics and then all the media and I think, you know, if Dick were alive, he'd tell you, he'd ask her a question about me, and she'd say, oh, I'm so proud of her. You know, she scored two touchdowns. He goes, she didn't play football. Well, you know, she scored baskets, and he was actually helping my mother. And I think she had to figure out, ma, come to a game, see what I do. And, you know, don't tell me you shouldn't be doing that. Girls don't play sports. This is what the neighbors are saying. I don't care what the neighbors are saying. So, you know, I developed my Mamba mentality of, this is who I am, this is what I am. This is what I'm going to do. I don't care what you say about me, because this is my ticket out. This is, you know, I became my mother's mother because she had nothing like, she's trying to survive, and sports was my vehicle.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you became your mother's mother more literally at the end. You had to leave a job with the Sacramento Kings to take. You were the first female assistant coach in the NBA.

[Nancy Lieberman]

Becky was the year before me.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, forgive me. The second you were in a job that you were enjoying, or was it okay?

[Nancy Lieberman]

Loved it. Vlade Divac was my gm and Peja Stojakovic, I loved it. You know, I was doing what I loved. I loved being around Rondo, and I loved being around DeMarcus and Rudy and, you know, Seth Curry and Nick Collison, Marco Bellinelli. It was. It was good stuff for me. It gave me a chance to get to that next level, see what that next level was about. We were a little dysfunctional with George Carl, to be quite honest, in Sacramento, and my mom got sick, and I went into Vlade's office and I said, sir, I feel responsible for women's basketball and what comes up behind us. And, you know, it's just, Jackie Robinson comes into Major League Baseball, it's historic. If Larry Doby doesn't come after him, it's a tragedy. If Becky gets hired, it's historic. If Nancy doesn't get hired, it's a tragedy. It could be Nancy, it could be sue, it could be anybody. But we can't have one offs for the optics. Growth is growth, and we have to be given opportunity and chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, so you didn't want to quit. You couldn't, like, it hurt you to quit anything?

[Nancy Lieberman]

Because I felt responsibility, and I'm not a quitter. But, you know, in life, you say, you know, it's God and family and job, and then you're in it, and it's money and money and status and family and God. And I think people get that twisted when so much is being thrown at you. And now I'm not Poor Nancy. By that time, I'm rich Nancy. And now what's changed Are my priorities in line? And, you know, sometimes you have to check your own motives of what you're doing. And I needed to be with my mom. She's in Florida, she's sick, she's getting older. She's in her 80s, she's probably 88, 89, and she has nobody. So I said, vladi. And he goes, it was great, Nancy. You go to your mother, peja, Peja, come here, come here, Peja. Peja walks in, he goes, nancy, it's what Vladi said. You go to your mother, you have no regrets. And I'm like, okay. And then he goes, I give you two year extension. I go, I don't want a two year extension for something I'm not doing. I don't want to take anything from somebody. I have to earn. What? That's how I. My belief system. Vlade is the best. I love that man because he took the pressure off me. So I'm with her. My mother goes, you're never with me. I go, I have 189 nights at the Marriott in Delray Beach. What are you saying? I'm not with you. You know, the Jewish guilt. You can't win. And I'm like, I'm leaving. I don't live here, but I'm here as much as I can be here. So I'm at home this 2018, you know, I step away after summer league in 2017, and I'm watching the NCAA tournament, flipping back and forth on the men's and watching Straight out of Compton. My phone rings, it's restricted. I'm like, I'm not answering it. And then I'm like, wait, you're a girl. You're curious, right? Fomo.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, you might be missing an opportunity there of some sort.

[Nancy Lieberman]

So I'm like, go right back to being New York. I go, yo, who's this? And he goes, yo, it's Ice Cube. I'm like, yo, do I call you Mr. Cube? Mr. Ice? What do I call you? He goes, call me Cube. He goes, nancy, I'm in a room with people who primarily look like me, and I'm a man of equality. And I said, sir, he said, we would like for you to coach in the Big Three. I know about your mom. It's three months, it's two days a week. We'll schedule a game in Florida so you can see Mom. He said, you'll be the first female head coach in a men's professional league. I was like, well, that's great. I said, sir, are you checking a box? Don't you hate when people do that to you? And he says, no, I think you can win. And I said, well, I really actually wanted to hear that. And he goes, and tell your agent you'll be the highest paid coach in the league. You'll make what Julius is making what? Michael Cooper, Gary Payton, Rick Barry, Rick Mahorn, George Gervin, I'm like, the highest paid. Equality. And he goes, yes. I don't know about you, but I had never heard that before. Well, you know, this is what you're going to get paid. But he does the same description and he's making this, well, if you want to be here, this is what you're going to get paid. So then you're like, I need to get my foot in the door. Do I push back too? You know, those are the life's choices. And this guy is saying, you don't have to even worry about that. Seven years later, I'm working for a black owned business. I'm working with someone who celebrates me, doesn't tolerate me. And one of the really cool moments of my life was when we won the championship in 2018 at Barclays Center. There's 17,000, it's sold out, the confetti is coming down and we're on that podium that we've seen so many times. And here's Cube handing me the championship trophy. And I just looked at him and I said, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. You don't know how good somebody can be if you don't give them a chance.

[Bill Simmons]

Your story wouldn't make any sense without basketball. Right. You would not have access to black culture as fluently as you do given your upbringing as a white Jewish girl.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, there would be.

[Bill Simmons]

No access to that in a meaningful way. And yet it seems like your safest space. It seems like your most fluent and comfortable space.

[Nancy Lieberman]

It is 100% comfortability for me because I get a chance to be a good leader of men, even though I coached in the W and I loved it, would do it again, coached in the NBA. But I thrive in that environment. I'm Big Mike on the blind side. I have protective instincts and I don't like to see underserved or minorities being treated poorly. And I'm strong enough and clearly, you know, have done this for so many years. I'm that person and I won't leti will not let people hurt other people to the best of my ability. Two things can happen. You can Hire me. You can fire me, but, like, in my locker room, you can have your children run around the locker room. You can have your wife, your granny, your sister, your brother, your significant other 30 minutes before the game. I'm firm but fair out. Don't be calling the locker room telling your husband your tickets aren't good enough. He has a job to do. This is his job. Handle your business. Let us handle our business. These guys, this is maybe a soft landing to retirement. Maybe these kids never saw what their daddy did for a living. Maybe these kids were not even born, but he has given you generational wealth. And I want them to see what their dad did. There are good men. I am the first one to say that. The myth that black, Latino, any of these different athletes, they're not good fathers. They are hella great fathers. And they love their kids and they love their family. And I get so tired of hearing, well, you know, they got 10 kids. And I'm like, cut the crap already. What generation are you talking about? So that's when Nancy fists up Nancy. I don't like when people do that to my guys or other guys in the league for that matter, because this is still my family. And then I get to coach my son in this family environment. And we got more. We got more, you know, black kids coming into my home, wherever I have lived. And I look at my neighbors and I'm like, this is my family. You treat them with respect. Don't do any of that, you know, behind shady stuff. This is my family. These are good people. So I'm very, very protective.

[Bill Simmons]

You couldn't have dreamed. You couldn't have even dreamt this from what it is that you were like. Even your wildest imagination couldn't have looked like what we're presently blossoming into.

[Nancy Lieberman]

What's happened in the last three years is supersonic. I mean, Caitlin is a dear friend of mine. I remember when Lisa Bluder during COVID called me and said, hey, can you zoom with my team? I got a player here. I think you'll like her. You know, she kind of plays like, your style and whatnot. And Paige got injured the year before. Paige won the Nancy Lehman point guard of the year award, and she got hurt a couple of times. And then the ascension of Caitlin. So I got to know her through these zooms every October. And then she played in the championship game in Dallas three years ago. And I remember being on the phone with her, and I said, caitlin, I don't know when we're going to meet. And she had Already won the award a couple of times. I said, I don't know when we're going to meet. I don't know how we're going to meet, but when we meet, it's going to be powerful. I'm sitting in the corner, like, here's the little locker room. Like, you know, the corridor to get to the locker room. And she finishes doing her espn. You know, they're getting ready for the championship game against lsu. They had beaten South Carolina. And she's walking, and she's got all this security around her. And we looked at each other.

[Napheesa Collier]

We.

[Nancy Lieberman]

Hugged like we were hostages, long lost friends. It was so powerful. And she goes, you're coming in the locker room. And I go, no, I don't have a pass. And she has my hand. She goes, I'm your pass. And I'm walking with her like, this is not my time. This is her time. And Lisa says, please talk to the team. And I go in the locker room, and I'm like, I'm just so proud of you guys. This building is full. The ratings are going to be bananas. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing for women's sports. I was an unpaid pioneer, y'. All. With Nils, you're paid pioneers. And I'm super happy for you. Thanks for just, you know, kind of moving the needle. And we've had so many of these moments where, you know, I've got a chance. You know, she's nice, she'll text me. She goes, my goat. I go, stop calling me a farm animal. And, you know, I'm goofy with her. Like, I'm goofy with you.

[Bill Simmons]

Your need for protection, though, did it affect or damage or end your relationship with Sheryl Swoopes that you were protecting or defending Caitlin Clark?

[Nancy Lieberman]

That's a great question. I was very protective of Cheryl throughout her career. Very, very close. Took her, went with her to her first ESPYs in 93 after they won the national championship. And I'm on the treadmill that morning, and she's trending on all different stations, and it pops up and I'm listening to it, and I'm like, wow. So I picked up the phone and I called her. Now, she disputes this, but I did screenshot to let her know the call happened. And I said, hey, I'm calling as your friend, as your sister. She's not 25 years old. She's not a fifth year senior, and she doesn't take 40 shots a game. I said, your numbers are wrong. And she goes, I can, you know, so she said to me, look, I can have my own opinion. I go, absolutely, you can have your opinion, but just get your numbers right. You know, they're going to fact check you, and you can play it off. You can mi a copa. You can. You know I was wrong and just take it on you and you're the hero of the story. But she dug in and then we got into it, and I don't want to get into it with anybody, but it became so much larger than life. And.

[Chris Ryan]

And.

[Nancy Lieberman]

I would do this for Angel Reese, who I love. I would do this for Asia Wilson, who doesn't need me. But we, our generation, we have to celebrate this generation.

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[Napheesa Collier]

Oh.

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[Bill Simmons]

Welcome to South Beach Sessions.

[Chris Ryan]

We've got someone with us today. She's unrivaled in a lot of different ways.

[Bill Simmons]

She wins, right?

[Chris Ryan]

She's a four time WNBA all star. She's a two time Olympic gold medalist. She's an NCAA champion, and she just won one on one. And unrivaled a league she created.

[Bill Simmons]

Nafeesa Call, you're with us.

[Chris Ryan]

Thank you for being with us. A league she created. I don't know in the list of things that I just said what you're proudest of, but I'll give you the.

[Bill Simmons]

Chance to answer for yourself.

[Chris Ryan]

And thank you for joining us.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, thanks for having me. That's definitely something I'm proud of. Just because obviously all the work that's gone into it, you know, years of just planning this and you know, Stewie and I just like from having it be a seed of an idea to having it turn into an entire league, it's just like a crazy thought. Something I never would have thought or dreamed of, you know, growing up or in college or even a couple years ago. So it's been really cool to kind of see the process of that.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, how did it come together? This is with your husband Alex.

[Chris Ryan]

That must present its own set of challenges.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, well, Alex is, I mean, he's like one of the smartest business people ever that I've ever met. So he actually had a business. He had a business background before that, but from Stewie and I side. We both had been in the league for several years by the time we started thinking of this. And through that you kind of just see the holes of, like, what's working, what's not. And for a lot of WNBA players, they've been having to go overseas for years to supplement the income because we make money for, you know, six months out of the year. So with that, a lot of people don't realize that we make most of our money off the court. So, like, 90% of the money I make is off the court. And so you have to be able to activate with brands. Like, brand building is a huge part of our business. When you're overseas, you're essentially going dark for six months out of the year, so you can't activate with the brands. You're losing money. You're away from your family, out of your home country, missing holidays. And then on the flip side, you still have to get better at basketball. So staying at home and training is not the same as playing. So kind of through all those things, we came up with unrivaled. And then also just the explosion that is happening in women's sports right now, you see it with the college game and how the WNBA and just all sports are exploding, and it feels like everyone is capitalizing off of that except for the people, the women who are playing. And so that's where we really wanted to get into the salaries that we're paying the players and having equity in the league, really creating that generational wealth.

[Bill Simmons]

How old were you when you realized you were really, really good?

[Napheesa Collier]

I would probably say eighth grade, because I got my first college scholarship then. And that was before they were really. They do it a little bit more now, so I think that was it. And I almost signed, like, on the spot, but my dad's the one that kind of pulled me and my mom off the ledge. He's like, you almost signed.

[Bill Simmons]

Who was sending it, though?

[Napheesa Collier]

Who was Mizzou? Cause, yeah, I was from Missouri. And I was like, yes, I'm ready to sign. He's like, you're 14 years old. Let's hold on a little bit. And so he used kind of the voice of reason through that.

[Bill Simmons]

Did you find yourself along the path then? Start gaining confidence right there.

[Chris Ryan]

Eighth grade is when that's happening. Does it start pretty immediately?

[Napheesa Collier]

No, I. I've honestly always been blessed with really great coaches. So my freshman year of high school, I went to Jeff City High School before I moved to my other school, and I was actually the point guard there. And he was a really tough coach. He was like one of those coaches. Exactly like Gino, like a yeller, really tough. Expects a lot from you. And so when you're with coaches like that, they never let your head get too big. You know, they're always pushing you to be better. And he did. And so it wasn't like I went in there thinking, you know, I'm the best player in the world.

[Bill Simmons]

I. If people around here were being honest, they would tell you. I often am lamenting that I wish I were a better leader. I wish I knew more about leadership. You just mentioned leadership. When did you start to become one of those?

[Napheesa Collier]

I would say when I got to Minnesota, probably. I mean, I tried in college a little bit, but I was just. I'm not a big, like, vocally, I was not a leader. I think I was. I tried to lead by example. Like, I always try to be the hardest worker and show that way, but I was really uncomfortable with, like, confrontation. So holding people accountable, you have to be confrontational. And so I feel like I started building the vocal side of it more when I was in Minnesota because, again, Sylvia Fowles was my vet, and her and our coach knew she was retiring soon. So they kind of, like, set me up for that a couple years before that happened, like, saying, you know, you're going to be in this leadership role. We need you to start working on this, this, and this. And so just like, the first step of whatever is admitting you have a problem. Like, just acknowledging in those situations that, okay, this is something. This is somewhere I can grow. Like, this is somewhere where I can say something. And just naturally I got more and more confident in that.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you gotten good at confrontation?

[Napheesa Collier]

I wouldn't say good. It's something like, I. It's not natural to me, so it's something I'm will always have to work on. But I'm definitely way better than I used to be.

[Bill Simmons]

But how do you, like, how do you process it in terms of awareness?

[Chris Ryan]

Because now you're not emotionally getting into a fight with a teammate.

[Bill Simmons]

You're purposefully getting into a fight with a teammate, correct?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. Well, I think still, like, that is not my confrontation style. Like, the word is confrontational, but I'm not confrontational about it. I try to come with it from, like, a point of reason. So see why you're thinking that way and try to, like, meet you where you're at. So I try to talk through in that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait a minute.

[Chris Ryan]

So you're just being direct? That's not confrontational?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

Like, direct. Confrontational is going and trying to. You know, I don't need to explain this to You. But creating whatever friction or fuel there is in, like, let me see if I can consciously instigate so that this person is better, doing whatever I have to do to make this person better.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, yeah. Not my leadership style still. So conflict. Confrontation is the wrong word. Then I feel like I'm more direct. Like, if I see a problem, I'll say it, but I'm not, like, trying to get it where you're riled up and in a fight. I'm trying to reason with you.

[Chris Ryan]

And you've discovered that you are a good leader. Like, what. What is it that's giving you the understanding that you are a good leader?

[Napheesa Collier]

I mean, I hope I'm a good leader. I try to be a good leader for my team. I think a sign is that, like, I think my teammates respect me and they listen to me when I talk. I think that's a sign of a good leader, is when you say something, they actively try to do what you're saying.

[Bill Simmons]

We were talking before we started, though. And I'm not gonna say you apologized for being a soft talker, but you did admit that on the court, you.

[Chris Ryan]

Have to summon an entirely different voice than your voice in order to be heard above the crowd. In order to what?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what it is. I think just, like, the level that my voice is at, naturally it's hard to hear in loud situations, so I have to make it usually lower, but sometimes higher so it kind of breaks above or below, like, what the noise.

[Chris Ryan]

Is so that you can be heard.

[Bill Simmons]

By your teammates in critical moments.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. Especially on the court. Like, this is just communication. Stuff like that. A screen is coming so they don't get cracked. Or, like, what we're doing on offense or defense.

[Chris Ryan]

The first thing you have to do.

[Bill Simmons]

Is lower your voice an octave upon recognition.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

To change your natural cadence. So a lot of things in basketball by you have had to be learned in order to successfully navigate the place that represents what I imagine is the most confident version of you we've ever seen.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the vocal side is definitely the most. I was. I mean, growing up, I would say I was pretty shy. Like, I wasn't a really vocal person. And that started in college, where, of course, they say the most. The thing you have to do on defense, you have to talk, talk, talk. It was, like, exhausting for me to talk now. It's so natural. I mean, I've been doing it for years, obviously, but that was, like, so exhausting that you have to be always talking and calling out on defense and cheering for your team. Like, I couldn't think of anything worse.

[Chris Ryan]

Exhausting.

[Napheesa Collier]

It was exhausting.

[Chris Ryan]

Truly emotionally draining.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yes. When I'm already physically so tired and then I have to talk the whole time because why?

[Chris Ryan]

What is happening there that would make that so exhausting?

[Napheesa Collier]

I think it's because. I mean, honestly, I don't know. I wasn't used to it. Like, I never had to do it really before.

[Bill Simmons]

But it's for. So it's not authentic.

[Chris Ryan]

It's not natural.

[Napheesa Collier]

It wasn't.

[Chris Ryan]

It's something that has to be learned, conscious and get to hear. But it's not any kind of natural.

[Napheesa Collier]

Now it is. When I was learning, it wasn't. Now it is so natural. Like, I don't even think twice about it. Like, in fact, if you don't do it, it's like so. Like a faux pas. It's bad. But before I was like, oh, I have to talk again. We've talking this whole time. Like, don't, you know, the screens come. You can't see them. So it was hard at first.

[Chris Ryan]

Did anyone ever say to you, hey, I can't hear you. You're talking too low, or you just learned over time, I've got to go deeper?

[Napheesa Collier]

No, it was because I was, like, screaming. I was yelling as loud as I could, and they're like, we can't hear you. I'm like, I don't know what else I need to do. So I started making my voice, like, higher or lower and they could hear me.

[Chris Ryan]

So would you be kind enough, not that you're a parrot, but would you be kind enough to show me what the octave changes are between?

[Napheesa Collier]

I don't know if you.

[Chris Ryan]

In between. Well, I just want to see what the difference is so that I can understand it. Between high and low. Unless that makes you uncomfortable. I don't want to make you uncomfortable.

[Napheesa Collier]

So usually I'd be like, screen. But especially, like when I'm having to go really fast, my voice goes higher. So I'm like, screen. So it's really loud like that. Or I'm like, we're going to trap. We're trapping. Like, try to make it a little lower so just whatever it is, like, whatever what my normal voice isn't, try to make it different so they can.

[Chris Ryan]

Hear you mentioned unrivaled having amenities that are thought of by people who have.

[Bill Simmons]

Experienced things that are needed to be great professionally. You have a child care center, right?

[Chris Ryan]

That's one of the things that you.

[Bill Simmons]

Have put in place.

[Chris Ryan]

What are some of the other things that you have tried to do, at.

[Bill Simmons]

Least in part because of your experiences of not having them come while you came up?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. So we went over a list of, like, must haves. So you have to have a weight room, which actually not everybody has. You have to have a training room. We have to have, you know, like, those are things that you have to have. Okay, what can we make those? How can we elevate those? So we got, like, the best of all the equipment in the weight room. We got the best of all the equipment in the training room, where we don't have the stuff in the w. Like, these equipments that we're using. And then it's like, okay, we have our necessities now.

[Sponsor Voice (Shopify)]

What would.

[Nancy Lieberman]

What.

[Napheesa Collier]

We just want just to make the experience better. So we have, like, a sauna. We have an esthetician room. We have, like, a makeup room. We have, you know, hot and cold tubs, which that's more of a necessity. But just stuff like that, where it's not a necessity, but it's nice to have. It makes the experience nice. We have masseuse on call, like, every week or every day. And so things that will elevate the experience in that way where it's like, you know, we want to make this better than what we've had. It's not just meeting our needs. We want to make it a professional experience where you have things that are just nice to have, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you able to concentrate on just your basketball portion of it and Alex.

[Chris Ryan]

And others can handle the business, or do you have to do all of the roles?

[Napheesa Collier]

I don't have to do all the roles, but I definitely am intermingling with things. I mean, when I'm in the facility, I am with my team, I definitely try to focus on basketball. But then you'll have players come up to you and be like, we want this? Or can this happen? Or, you know, what's going on with this? And so you kind of step into that role. And then at the end of the day, Alex tells me everything that goes on on the business side. And then, like, if I have an opinion about something, then you step into that role. So there's definitely some intermingling, but I try to keep when I'm there, like, I'm with my team, I'm locked in.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, when you say, though, that it's been years in the making, I don't know what it's like to work with your partner on something this intertwined what are the complications in that and what are the fulfillments?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, we have a lot of practice because like I said, he was my trainer for like, several years before we started dating. And so when we transitioned over to dating, it was really hard to work together. Like, we were questioning, like, should I get a new trainer? Just because it's hard to switch that off where, you know, we're partners, but you're telling me what to do, like when, and you're critiquing me when I'm playing. And then all of a sudden, like, I think you have an attitude. You think I have an attitude? It's like, hard to listen. So we had to have like a conversation where when we step on the court, this is now, you know, teacher, student environment. Like, you need to listen to me. I won't be getting an attitude if I think you're not listening. Like, whatever it is, like, set that aside. And once we did that, it was great. So you kind of have to establish those boundaries. So we had some practice in that a little bit. And then once it switched over to unrivaled, it was just really collaborative because I kind of. I defer to him on the business side. He knows all the business stuff, and he defers to me on the player experience side, because I know that. So I think we just did a really great job of trusting each other in our different categories. And then you come together to create the best product.

[Bill Simmons]

How did it come to be that the trainer relationship blossomed into romance?

[Napheesa Collier]

So it was my junior year at UConn and Alex was training a couple of the players on the Knicks. So he was in New York a lot, and I was struggling my junior year. And so he would come down to help me train. I'm like, I need to get some reps in cause I'm not feeling good. So we'd come down and train and it's like a three hour drive. So we would hang out for a little bit. After we'd go to dinners or just hang out and talk about the season stuff. And I guess it just naturally progressed.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay. But I'm gonna need a little bit.

[Chris Ryan]

More information here about, like, how is it that it comes to be that you have.

[Bill Simmons]

I wasn't thinking about this at all.

[Chris Ryan]

This way before, and now he's gonna.

[Bill Simmons]

Be the father of my children.

[Napheesa Collier]

There are definitely some.

[Chris Ryan]

It seems that there's some. There's some holes in your story right now in terms of how it is that you're telling me how we get from. He's pushing you Around. He's training you. Well, first of all, how does he become your trainer?

[Bill Simmons]

Let's start there.

[Napheesa Collier]

So the first time I met him was right before I left for UConn, and I had a different trainer, and one of my friends was just like, you know, I'm going to this workout with this guy from the company they were with was called Pure Sweat. I'm going to Pure Sweat. We're going to work out. Do you want to just join me for this workout? So that's, like, technically, the first time I met him, I was like, oh, I actually really like what he's doing. And then, you know, I go to college. I have that horrible year. I'm like, I need to get better in this off season. And I knew I wanted to, you know, move on from my other trainer. He was starting to, you know, transition out of training, and Alex was the only person I knew. And I'm like, I really liked what he was doing. And so that's how he became my trainer. Like I said, we worked together for, like, what, three years doing that? And then he went to New York, and I don't know, I just thought he was really cute, and we were spending a lot of time together, and you get to know people more that way. It's not like I'm only seeing you on the court more now. I get to see your personality more. I could tell he was getting flirty, too, and I think he just, like, asked me out on a date one day. We went to dinner. He's not like he ever asked me to be his girlfriend. We just started hanging out a lot after that, and it kind of just. I think the first title we had was, like, engaged, because I don't know if he ever, like, asked me to be his girlfriend.

[Bill Simmons]

Super interesting time to be with you, too, though, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, those three years he's seeing. He's got a pretty unique access to.

[Bill Simmons]

You now are going to start flourishing.

[Chris Ryan]

Into the professional person that you've become?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I mean, and he had a lot of experience. He worked with a lot of NBA players. So he kind of saw the progression of that. Like, he worked, for example. I mean, he worked with Trey Young, and since he was in high school, so you see, like, the levels of it, like, obviously, they accelerate a lot faster. They don't go through college the same way. But so he kind of. It was cool to kind of lean on his expertise in that, too, because I had no idea what to expect. I didn't have any WNBA friends, you Know. And so just knowing what that process looks like, kind of being able to, you know, he knows what agents, like, what agents you're supposed to look for in an agent, how, you know, deals are supposed to be done. So kind of leaning on his expertise in that, too.

[Bill Simmons]

When you're coming up, your dreams look like, what, have you already exceeded them?

[Napheesa Collier]

I mean, I never had a dream to be a WNBA player, so I would say yes. I. I mean, when I was little, like, I wanted to be a teacher, and then I wanted to be a doctor. And then, you know, I want to be a hairstylist. I love playing with hair. I think I just naturally, like, accidentally fell into professional basketball. Like, I just loved playing sports. I had to pick a sport to stick with when I was in high school, and I'm like, I'm the best at basketball. I'll stick with basketball. It turned into like, okay, I want to get my school paid for, and then I get to go to college. I'm like, oh, this is the best school. And then once you get there, I'm like, okay, I have a chance to be a professional athlete. Like, so I kind of just took it one step at a time. It's not like I'm like, my ultimate goal is to be a WNBA player.

[Bill Simmons]

But when you've done goals and stuff, have you met most of them?

[Napheesa Collier]

I've met a lot, but not all. I mean, going to my rookie year, I had a goal to be rookie of the year because there's just so much happening that year. I mean, you're going from college to a new team, new, you know, new city, new everything.

[Bill Simmons]

You scored, what, 27 points in your first game?

[Napheesa Collier]

I know. Well, that's why I'm like, I need something to focus me. Like, I want to be rookie of the year, and I had a horrible preseason. Actually. I think I had four points between both the games. And I felt like how I did my freshman year at college, but, like, luckily I was able to. I'd been there before. I was able to recognize it. I'm like, I'm never feeling that way again. So I came out my first game. I'm like, I don't care. I'm just gonna play basketball. And I never looked back in that sense.

[Bill Simmons]

So this period of anxiety lasted a couple of games.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And you recognized it.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

You recognized the feeling, whatever it was.

[Bill Simmons]

The feeling of the water rising in the room.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, Yeah. I was feeling not confident because it was essentially the same situation. Like, you're going in where everyone's better than you again. They have more experience. You're the freshman again and like as a new system, blah blah blah. And I'm like, I'm just playing not confidently. And that's the, that's the feeling I don't like is not being confident in what you're doing. It makes you second guess everything. It's the worst feeling. And so I recognize that's what was happening. I'm like, I'm not doing a whole nother season like this.

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[Bill Simmons]

Learn [e-mail] what is the worst of the professional experiences that you have had? Like, would that represent the greatest of the professional hardships? Because you.

[Chris Ryan]

You'Ve had a lot of success.

[Bill Simmons]

You've had a lot of success early.

[Chris Ryan]

There's not a lot of evidence anyone can spot of these anxieties and these doubts you speak of.

[Napheesa Collier]

Like, is that the worst mentally that I've been since I've just yet you.

[Chris Ryan]

Said professionally you had this period of doubt that lasted a couple of preseason games and then you scored 27 in your first one. And I don't know that you've probably done a lot of doubt since.

[Napheesa Collier]

No, I mean, I do just like everyone, I think, I think it like comes and goes. But for me, being able to recognize it is like great for me because I feel myself like, especially you get that like mid season slump where you're not in the gym the same because you're just tired, you're going from game to game, you're not getting in the same reps. So like you feel less confidence. Like when you don't study for a test, you go and you're anxious because you, you don't know anything. When I, when you study, you go in. I feel great. So mid season, where it's like you're just in the debt of everything. You're not practicing as much. I don't feel as confident and I'm able to recognize that. And then I'm like, okay, I need to get in reps in. So I'm not feeling this way in the game because I'll have a game where like I'm hesitating before I shoot or I'm like, should I? And that's when I'm in my worst spot, is when, honestly when I'm thinking like that. And so, yeah, just making sure that I'm aware of when I'm feeling that way.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, is this what you're referencing when you say 80% of the game is mental? Like, what are the things that you're talking about when you say because you.

[Chris Ryan]

Don'T really believe that most of the.

[Bill Simmons]

WNBA players have your skill set, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Or most of the top six picks in any draft have exactly your skill set. Or do you believe they do have that skill set and what you have is a mental advantage?

[Napheesa Collier]

I honestly think it's both. Like, I recognize I'm a very skilled, I'm an athlete. Like, I'm a very skilled athlete. Can I run the fastest? No. Can I jump the fastest? No. Can I do all these things? No. I'm not the best at any of those. I think I worked really hard on my footwork. I think my footwork is one of the best in the league for sure. But mentally, like, I believe I'm the best when I'm out there. Like, when I get to my certain spots, I know I'm going to score. And I think you see that in a lot of players. Like, I think Trey is a great example of that. Is he the best at anything? No. But he has so much confidence in himself. It makes him, one of the best players in the league. Like, he's able to do incredible things, not because of his talent. He is very talented, but because he has so much belief in himself. And I think you see that with other players like Ben Simmons, who is so talented, but his mental is like, he's come out and said he struggles really hard mentally with his confidence in himself, and he's not able to do the things that he should be able to do. So I really believe that sports is 80, 20 mental and physical, and you.

[Bill Simmons]

Feel like you're sturdy there, right?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, if I. If I say to you, what is.

[Bill Simmons]

Your greater advantage, your mental or your footwork?

[Napheesa Collier]

I would say my mental. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

When you speak of your footwork, can you explain to people when I.

[Chris Ryan]

This is where I sort of say.

[Bill Simmons]

What'S the cost of that?

[Chris Ryan]

Like, it's such a meticulous thing that you have to be taking care of.

[Bill Simmons]

So specifically until it becomes totally natural now.

[Chris Ryan]

But what was the cost of getting.

[Bill Simmons]

Your game that sculpted?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, to me, it wasn't a cost. To me, it was great because it. The foundation of it was that sophomore, like, that freshman summer, going to my sophomore year of college, where I was just so determined to not feel like shit anymore when I played that I wanted to be in the gym. Like, I was doing two days. Every single day. I would do skill work in the morning. I would shoot in the afternoon every single day. And so learning that. And then when you start seeing the reps go down and it feels good, you're playing pickup, you're playing one on one, I'm like, I am scoring every single time. Like, it builds your confidence, and after that becomes natural in the way that you added to your game. But, yeah, I mean, you have to do so many reps for things to become second nature.

[Bill Simmons]

How do you do losing? I remember in Miami when LeBron James was the centerpiece of losing, where it looked like at the end, five minutes left with Dallas, he's swinging the ball in the perimeter because he doesn't want to have the ball anymore. He described himself as castaway, where he goes away for a month and just. Just stews in his misery. What was the losing to the Liberty like?

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah, it was awful. I mean, I felt a lot of anger. I've not been, you know, quiet about, like, how I felt about the finals. So I was riding on anger for a really long time. And it's still something that, like, I used to motivate myself. Even now, I mean, I feel like it has pushed me to Be honestly a better player because I. In the way that I play, I feel like I never want to be in that situation again where I'm having to complain about the refs, which everyone is saying, you know, I want it to be where we're winning by so much. It doesn't matter what the refs are calling, like. And so I think it's changed my mindset and the way that I see the game, honestly, and it's made me a better player because of it.

[Bill Simmons]

Angry for how long? Like, how did you. Anger is just information. So what is it that you're doing with this anger and how long are you stewing in it?

[Napheesa Collier]

I think it's changed my mentality, honestly. It's made me more mentally strong. And so during the games, I feel like sometimes I would, like, coast a little bit where you have, you know, quarters or a couple minutes where you're like, you don't need to be involved. And, you know, you're kind of like LeBron at the end again, like, swinging the ball, stuff like that. Now I just feel super locked in. Like, I want to make sure that I'm contributing to the team. It doesn't even have to be scoring, but, like, I need to be going out there and I need to be playing great defense. I need to be getting rebounds, whatever it is, where I'm locked in. And just. I would just say it just. It just gave me an edge to when I play and how I play.

[Bill Simmons]

How often do you play angry?

[Napheesa Collier]

Honestly, I feel like more and more just because, you know, like, in the Jordan documentary, he's like, I took that personally. I feel like it's easy to find little things that you take personally, and it makes you play with an edge. So, I don't know, you just, like, find little stuff that kind of pisses you off. And I play better when I'm mad because it makes me really focused.

[Bill Simmons]

So, yeah, I thought it was better to keep the emotion out of it. You found a governor. Like, give me some of the stuff.

[Chris Ryan]

People are doing to piss you off. Who's pissing you off? How they doing it?

[Napheesa Collier]

Well, I don't like other people to see that I'm mad, so that is something that I still stick to. It's like, I don't want you to know I'm mad, but I need to use it as fuel for myself. So, I mean, like, just, you know, people are chirping or they're, you know, fouling you or they're complaining about something, saying, like, oh, that wasn't A foul or whatever it is you can find anything to get mad about.

[Bill Simmons]

It's nice, though. But.

[Chris Ryan]

But stoicism. You're not going to let them.

[Napheesa Collier]

I don't want you to know.

[Chris Ryan]

You're not gonna let them have the pleasure.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

The pleasure of knowing that then they've won. You can't. You can't let them have that. You just have to let them give you just enough fuel so you use.

[Bill Simmons]

It as rage to eat their face.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yes, absolutely.

[Chris Ryan]

Okay. I'm glad I articulated it for you that way. Do you. As you. You won the one on one of unrivaled and you are determined how much to win to bring the Lunar Owls the title so that you can be co founder.

[Bill Simmons]

So you can be greedy about it.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

So you can be champion of One on one. Created the league and also won the team title.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. I want to be super greedy about it. I mean, and also, like, we're working our butts off. We are in the weight room every single day, all five of us. We are in the training room every single day, all five of us taking care of our bodies. The way that we stay locked into practice. Like, we are making it so, like, there's no competition. Like, we want it to be where we're winning every single game. Like, we're mad that we lost one game, you know, and so. Yeah. I mean, especially when there's 50 bands on the line for the winner. Like, we're taking it really seriously. We want to win.

[Bill Simmons]

Where does this rank in terms of community feeling that you've had with five players before? Because nobody can really understand unless you've done it, what those bonds are like.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. I would definitely compare this more to college where because we're just in such a confined space and there's only five of us, so there's not like you have cliques that can form on the team. We're so small already. We are our own clique. And so. And just, you know, the adversity of going through this together, like, there's a huge target on your back. Everyone thinks whatever they do about your team because you're winning so much. And, you know, everyone is happy when you lose that one game. It's like their super bowl when you lose. So it brings you closer together. So it's been really fun. I mean, and this team is so competitive. Like, it's been really fun to be a part of.

[Bill Simmons]

How about the fulfillment involved in providing something that might one day be bought by the WNBA or like, just the fulfillment of.

[Chris Ryan]

Of these People having employment because of something you made.

[Bill Simmons]

How much of that are you getting daily?

[Napheesa Collier]

I don't know that I feel fulfilled yet, because there's still so much we want to do. Like, we. There's a lot more that we want to do, and I think we've done amazing for our inaugural season, and I think we're changing the landscape of women's sports. Like, you see it rising. I mean, overseas contracts are going up. Domestically, contracts are going up. We're about to go. We're in our CBA for the wnba. And so I think I'll feel. I'll feel fulfilled when we see those contracts change and see, you know, unrivaled, keep going, and our contracts keep going up here and just, like, changing what it means to be a woman's athlete.

[Bill Simmons]

Are you hard on yourself?

[Napheesa Collier]

I would say yes. I think all professional. I think people at the top of their. Anyone at the top of anything is hard on themselves. That's how you get there.

[Bill Simmons]

I'd like to be better. It's something I'm always fighting with. Of being more forgiving, more gentle with myself. But you're saying it's kind of a. It's a job requirement like that.

[Napheesa Collier]

I mean, I think it's how you get to where you are if you're. And this is probably a toxic take, but, like, if you're so forgiving with yourself, how are you going to push yourself to be better? And, like, how are you going to push yourself to be the greatest at something and be the best if you're not expecting that of yourself?

[Chris Ryan]

Do you have a reason? Like, can you tie to roots?

[Bill Simmons]

Why do you want to be the best? Why is it so important? Like, what. Where is all of that coming from?

[Chris Ryan]

I would assume you're surrounded by people who would allege that they want the same thing.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah.

[Chris Ryan]

And you would notice they don't want it quite as much as I do.

[Napheesa Collier]

Yeah. Honestly, I think just. I feel like it's like getting greedy, Honestly, like, especially because I am naturally gifted, so I have naturally been better from a younger age. I was like, I saw that. And so you get used to that feeling, and then you get people who are more talented, and you're like, well, I want that feeling back, so I have to work harder. And then you get to the next step and people are more talented, and it's like, it's running away from that feeling of, you know, I'm not the best anymore. And so I think that's probably what it is, honestly.

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[Napheesa Collier]

Time for some extra Miller Light.

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